THE CREATIVE NOWHERE LAND PODCAST
Unlock the secrets of creativity and achieving your goals with inspiring stories from extraordinary individuals.
Welcome to The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast. Hosted by Matt Wilson, a seasoned creative industry professional, this podcast dives into the fascinating lives and inspiring stories of some of the extraordinary individuals he's been lucky enough to meet on his journey.
From innovative artists to pioneering entrepreneurs, elite athletes to international performers, each episode features in-depth interviews that uncover the unique stories of these remarkable individuals.
Explore how their creative minds and unwavering determination have led them to overcome obstacles and achieve success. Through engaging conversations, we explore the moments of clarity, bravery, passion, and perseverance that have defined their journeys.
Whether you're looking for a little inspiration, personal growth, or some tips to enhance your own creative potential, The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast delivers powerful, real-life stories that, we hope, will resonate deeply with the human experience.
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THE CREATIVE NOWHERE LAND PODCAST
#0013 MATT JOHNSON - CREATING ART TO A BRIEF!
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Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land podcast!
In this episode, I’m joined by one of my best friends, the incredibly talented commercial artist and illustrator, Matt Johnson. Known by his creative alias Fuzzy Concept, Matt has over 15 years of experience working across a wide range of projects, from private commissions to workshops and events. But what makes Matt’s story interesting is how he’s carved out a niche in working with schools and colleges, using art to inspire the next generation.
We talk about Matt’s journey from honing his craft as a draftsman and artist in the early days to turning his passion into a sustainable career. It’s a story of creativity and finding a way to make your art pay the bills. Matt also shares insights on what it takes to teach art, the different approaches needed when working with young people versus adults, and the joy of helping others express themselves, build confidence, and be inspired by the power of art.
We also discuss the, often difficult, balancing act of being a commercial artist—creating work to someone else’s brief while attempting to find time to explore the personal projects that fuel your creative soul. The work that truly resonates with you as an artist.
Check out the links below to see more of Matt's work via the Fuzzy Concept website and social media. I might be a little biased because Matt is one of my closest mates, but he’s genuinely one of the most positive, down-to-earth people I know. He has this amazing ability to connect with almost anyone he meets, and it’s a privilege to share his story with you.
FUZZY CONCEPT WEBSITE: https://www.fuzzyconcept.co.uk/
FUZZY CONCEPT INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/fuzzy_concept/
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Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noirland podcast. On this episode, I'm joined by commercial artist and illustrator and one of my best friends, matt Johnson. Matt works under the name Fuzzy Concept and is an incredibly talented artist with more than 15 years commercial experience, working across multiple areas that include private commissions, workshops and events, but who has found a niche in working with schools and colleges to facilitate art as a commercial artist. We go into detail about Matt's creative and commercial journey so far the early days honing his techniques as a draftsman and artist to turning his skills into something that can consistently pay his bills. We discussed the importance of people being able to see art as a profession, the skills it takes to connect and engage with students, the difference between teaching art to adults versus teaching art to young people, and the rewards of being able to help people express themselves, build confidence and be inspired by art. We also talk about creating art to somebody else's brief and balancing the commercial jobs with finding the time to create personal work the work that, deep down, you really want to make.
Speaker 1This episode is full of great stuff, but then I am a bit biased because he's one of my best mates. But Matt is also just one of those positive humans in life who is always interested in other people and has the ability to find connection with almost anybody he meets. It's always great for me to shine a light on the people that I'm No-Round podcast my absolute pleasure. It's a good one for me because we're going to caveat this episode. We are best friends. We went to university together. I was one of the best men at your wedding, so we've known each other a long time. So I know a lot of this story, but hopefully Probably better than I do. Some parts, yeah, maybe, maybe, but how would you describe what you do?
Speaker 2I would describe what I do is I take people's creative ideas and try and facilitate them as best as possible and as creatively as possible. Where I'm allowed to be, but yeah, working to people's briefs, making people's creative ideas into something physical Okay, but yeah, I noticed.
Speaker 1Can I just say I noticed that never, at one point, did you use the word artist.
Speaker 2Yeah, I thought that was obvious.
Speaker 1No.
Speaker 2I thought it was interesting that you didn't use it but I would say you're a commercial artist. Well, I was about to say that, yeah, yeah, that was. That was the next line. You do consider yourself an artist, of course. Of course, that's all I've ever liked to do, and I suppose you asked me to describe myself and what I do now, and that is to work closely with clients on a lot of platforms creating art for them.
Speaker 1Can you talk a bit more about some of those platforms? Obviously, you take private commissions, but I'm interested in some of the other stuff that you do in terms of in the schools and in the pupil referral units, because you're not an arts teacher, no, Facilitating no.
Speaker 2I go into schools and, yes, I'm going in to facilitate art, but I'm going in as a commercial artist. I think that's part of the draw for schools. I think it's important that young people today have access to different areas of growth. It was stuff that wasn't apparent when I was at school. I've always wanted to be an artist, always professed that's what I wanted to do, that's what I wanted to be and and really had no idea how to do it until I was a young adult and certainly didn't meet any artists. So I think, going in and working with the schools as a professional artist and helping a lot of the time I get to run the creativity, which is brilliant, but sometimes it's working quite closely with the school.
Speaker 1But you work in pupil referral units as well, so it's not just schools, Not just schools.
Speaker 2I work with colleges on certain qualifications AS level. I think they have to work with a professional artist if they're doing an arts AS level or A level. But yeah, I also I quite enjoy going into the schools where they are separate units, not mainstream. So there are special schools and pupil referral units, two very different environments. But they're there for the I't want to say less, less academic, but they're there for the students that need to be challenged in different ways and I can certainly identify with those individuals. I think people are finally realizing that they can't teach everybody exactly the same way and get through on the same sort of level. Everyone's different. That's very true.
Speaker 1And that's become sort of your bread and butter work. Shall we say yeah?
Speaker 2definitely I love it and a lot of the time it's once a year going to a certain college or a school. I have certain clients, schools, educational facilities that use me termly, so sometimes six times a year, three times a year, and then I do contract out work and at the moment I go into one academy and one special school that encapsulates primary and secondary pros and two special school units.
Speaker 1And this is why I want to emphasise the fact that you are a commercial artist. This is what pays your way, and you've developed a client list that's now quite extensive, that can afford you a regular income, shall we say, which is relatively unusual for a lot of artists.
Speaker 2It takes a lot of worry out of what we do, I suppose. But being freelance, being your own boss and everything else that comes with it, having the contracted work where I know I can help people by being creative, um, and I know I can get through to people by still drawing every day I do a lot of spray painting with the students where we're allowed and, yeah, it just that regular fun side of the work and they can be really fun days in terms of, you know, less stress to deliver a particular thing. I'm not rocking up with a scaffold tower and a concept design and having to deliver that in X amount of days for a client. I'm turning up and being free, creative and hopefully inspiring to these kids that don't really get inspired by mainstream teaching and by doing that it helps them get through the day, if I'm honest hopefully.
Speaker 1I have no doubt that it does. Who doesn't?
Speaker 2like colouring in.
Speaker 1Well, no, but I think that's something else I'd like to talk to you. How do you think that art differs in connecting with the young people that you're working about compared to normal subjects? It sounds like a bit of an obvious question because, of course, who who wouldn't want to do something in an art class over going to do maths?
Speaker 2but I think. Well, I know that the the students that I work with enjoy it because it just it facilitates a freer and I obviously help facilitate that. I think I'd like to think, over the 12 years, 15 years I've been doing it, I've learned how to work with young people successfully and how to be inspiring but also be lighthearted and take an interest in them, and I think that just generally helps. But in terms of what does art do for the younger generation in schools? It's a chance to really express themselves. Some choose not to and find it hard, but then throw in the idea of coming up with something completely by yourself to younger people is quite an experience for them anyway. So then to actually start that process and some have no creative drive at all to begin with, but then after six months of working with them, they're full of ideas because they're aware of what can be created.
Building Confidence in Art Students
Speaker 1So it gives the kids a chance to express themselves. And what's the level of talent you're working with? It must be varied.
Speaker 2I'm guessing it's massively varied and you get kids that think they can do it and can't, but you get a lot of kids that don't think they can do it and can.
Speaker 1Is that a confidence thing, though? Because previously you said people start and then six months with you, confidence is massively important.
Speaker 2I wanted to be an artist and drew endlessly as a kid because I was good at it and that does help. So teaching art to students, people you know, I do adult spray workshops and all sorts and there's lots more hopefully in the build for that but just teaching it to people you know, no matter what age, and reinforcing that confidence, confidence is key.
Speaker 2Yeah, so getting them to start where you know they can start and working on those things that really build people's confidence. But you know again, the talent levels vary massively. But anyone can be taught how to draw, but it does start with enjoyment firstly, and then confidence. So the lower level students, students, have got all sorts of techniques and ways of working that help build their confidence and enjoyment and then, as soon as you've got that, you can really build on their creativity and the thought process behind it. And, that being said, once you've got them to that level, then they can really start to be creative.
Speaker 1Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot here. So if someone comes to you and they say I can't draw anything, I'm not creative, but I'd like to be able to draw, what's the first thing that you get them to start with? What would you practice? What's the go-to to start developing that confidence? Because, like you say, you don't jump in going. Oh, I'm going to try and emulate the Sistine Chapel.
Speaker 2No, of course not. I think sketching with an adult trying to hook someone in, I think you'd have to be a bit more detailed. Kids are quite easy, you know cartoon driven anime, things like that. But with an adult I would start with the face, because there are lots of simple rules to drawing faces and it really does hook people in once you show. The certain anatomical differences can be measured, once you've got the eyes in place, for example, and drawing with shapes, and that process quickly builds into a face, and a generic face at that. But then obviously you can then tweak it because we all look so different but we are all so similar in the same sense. It's a matter of millimetres. It's all in millimetres half a millimetre, depending on your scale.
Speaker 1So is that why you suggest people observe someone doing these techniques?
Speaker 2Definitely. Look at drawing generic faces. I mean there's loads of books out there and stuff, but it's the confidence thing as well out there and stuff, but it's the confidence thing as well. You can't expect someone to draw everything and be excited about where it's going. You need a bit of help. You need to build confidence first, so that they can start to trust the process.
Speaker 1And how do you go about building that confidence?
Speaker 2Everybody's different. So it's about, like I said, getting the enjoyment in. I mean, it's getting people seeing their progress, knowing that it doesn't have to be perfect, and I think that's the key. You know, you don't want to be drawing photographically to start with. You just want to be drawing, you want to be making shapes, you want to be amazing yourself with ideas, drawing the silliest things, drawing four words, however, or a random word generator and doing something creative based on that. Start with drawing, then start collaging, then start painting, you know, start splashing paint around.
Speaker 1I love spray paint, but, um, yeah, just have a go, have a, have a, have a mess a lot of the work you do is in schools and people referral units, but in the past you've done workshops with adults and stuff. Do you notice a confidence difference? Is it easier to build confidence in younger people when it comes to art and creativity than it is with an older person that says in grain, that sort of has already told themselves I'm not creative.
Speaker 2Yes in a one-word answer. Yes, it is easier. Definitely, they're less scared to open up. Don't get me wrong. It's a certain age. They're all different. The older they get, the the less free creative they probably are. And adults that were told they were rubbish are in year nine. Some want to, but don't pick up a pencil ever again. Um, so yeah, I think I think teaching adult workshops is is very different, and a lot of adults expect instant progress. And again, it's just, it's not about instant progress, it's about learning the processes. Again, it's not science, but, like with everything, there are processes to learn which effectively make it easier. But if you've got the tools and the know-how of the processes and you know the best way to do things, then ultimately it gives you a better end product. And exactly applies to painting, touring, spray painting it's there in those things. So teaching adults in that respect because they listen better, teaching those processes is easier. Yeah, but I think a lot of adults give themselves a hard time, harder to break down those barriers.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, of something that's possibly been ingrained in them. And let's all remember, you know I am aware of how lucky I am to be creative and to be drawing every day, because people don't get the time. You know, we've all, as adults, got things that we really want to do. We just can't carve the time out.
Speaker 1But this is one of the reasons why I want to talk to you on the podcast. I'm sure there's many people listening who are in full-time work but they're maybe part-time artists or they're striving to be an artist and have that pay their way. You've done that and you've done that for 20 years, but I guess you've had to sacrifice in a different way, because you're not always going to be working on those dream projects or those briefs that you always want to. But what you have done is you've treated it as the job it is.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And it's put clothes on your kid's back, it keeps a roof over your head, it pays your gas bill and you've managed to bash out a client base that is facilitating that. Yeah, is this a good time to go backwards? How did that happen? Because, as we mentioned before, we were at uni together. Yep, okay, let's go even further back. Everyone's probably bored of this now, but I was like oh, what are you like as a child? But this is an interesting story because Blond with a bowl, cut Were you really yeah Wow.
Speaker 1I think we were all blonde with a bowl cut back then.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Artistic Trajectory Towards Commercial Success
Speaker 1Yeah, 80s. But going back to before uni, let's talk about you. Know, you found that you were good at drawing early doors, but that's because of your dad, right?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, dad was. Dad loved drawing. I grew up watching him sit at the table and and just sketch drawing. He loved working in pencil, soft pencils, and he loved his rock icons. He's always loved his black sabbath and big fan of the beatles, led zepp, pink floyd and some even weirder ones and uh it's. He'd sit and quite happily just draw and I would sit and quite happily just watch him draw. I remember he did a Paul McCartney pencil about an A2 sketch. It was great. I think he entered it and perhaps won a local competition with it and, yeah, it really inspired me and I've loved sitting and drawing ever since.
Speaker 2but you've described yourself to me previously as a draftsman yeah, I think at school I had a really good relationship with the art teacher, um, but he was very much a draftsman. Um told me all those bits that I was talking about earlier with the portraiture.
Speaker 2Oh, the proportional tricks, the proportional tricks and mapping certain you know similarities and differences out. And I was forever drawing photographically at school Not perfectly photographically, I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I was just doing my best to make things look like they should. And, if I'm honest, if I could do it all again, I'd have liked to have tried to have pushed the creativity. I was always drawn towards Dali and Escher at school, but the furthest I got was painting exact replicas of Dali and Escher or maybe combining the two in a strange but, in my view, not massively creative way.
Speaker 1Is that? Hindsight, though, is that you looking back as an artist now?
Speaker 2That is hindsight, boy speaking. Yeah, I think I've always thought I work better to a brief. But honestly, as I get older and the more creative avenues, paths that I take, I'm starting to think it's definitely better to be just a bit weirder, a bit more creative, a bit more experimental. So yeah, that is hindsight talking.
Speaker 1So that skill set that you learned from your dad initially, and the art teacher draftsman, teaching you all the complexities of proportion, all those things that skill set then took you on to want to be an artist essentially.
Speaker 2I honestly can say I've wanted to be an artist since year three at school.
Speaker 1Really.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah Again. The love of watching Dad do it and then starting drawing it with him definitely got me into portraiture. All those draftsmanship qualities, the perplexity of faces, trying to draw photographically and get likenesses, so did you always gear all your studies and everything towards being an artist?
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, in a way.
Speaker 2So I did GCSEs, smashed those, enjoyed those A-levels and then I took A-levels. It was a compromise. Mum and Dad wanted me to. I was desperate to do GMBQ and I can remember having a couple of fallouts not big ones, but disagreements about that path. Mum and dad wanted me to get other A-levels, so I did geography and economics. Economics really stood me well and geography was great because I got to go on the field trip and they let us drink in the pubs, which was messy.
Speaker 1But that's speaking defending your parents, I think, parents of our generation. Oh, I get it.
Speaker 2They don't need defending as such. Now, again, I totally get it, and at the time you think, oh no, it's happened a year away. I don't have a year, of course I had a year and you know, I I enjoyed that course, I enjoyed the a-level course, and then it, it sort of it springboarded me into the art foundation course which I did at bourneville bourneville's in birmingham for international listeners international listeners um.
Speaker 1They make chocolate very nice that took you to art college to do your foundation.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, did the foundation. Can't say I enjoyed it massively. But again I've touched on it. I wasn't overly creative back then, just loved drawing, like I said, and loved drawing things. So at first wasn't a massive fan of having to build dioramas or some of the techier sides of it Graphic design that was a bit boring back then, to be honest, and certainly didn't hold my attention. I really enjoyed things like we did set building, we did prop making, which is good. Strangely, enjoyed the fashion. Got some very weird photos of a strange fashion shoot I did with myself in a garage, never to be shown the light of day Funny you say that We've actually got those pictures and they're going on the blog right now.
Speaker 1Amazing, amazing. But that art foundation didn't put you off.
Speaker 2No, not at all. In fact, halfway through, having not enjoyed the first few electives and the subject matters things like the prop design, prop building, the fashion and there was an illustration Elective as well which I massively enjoyed and that was probably I'd met an illustrator whilst doing A-level art and he'd come in. A guy called Rob can't remember his second name, hope he's still going but it was just nice to actually see and talk to in the flesh someone who drew pictures for money. I thought it was fascinating and I think the word illustrator just started to reverb and I was like this is brilliant. The fact that it was for books but also was for editorial work, was for greeting cards, textbooks, anything drawn, came in into that category and I was like, well, that's, that's pretty much me. So then I went on to to be at burmese shirine design, where I met your fine self and many, many other lovely fluffy creatives and, uh yeah, took the illustration path there as well, okay, I don't think we need to go too much into uni.
Speaker 1You excelled at uni. Illustration was your thing. What's coming out of you? Because, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to get to is the path of how we've established you, of being different to others who've come out of a creative course at university and don't necessarily become the artist commercial artist, photographer, graphic designer they want because it's a tough old industry?
Speaker 2I want to know coming out of uni.
Speaker 1How does that framework of becoming a commercial artist happen? Essentially Because it happened quite early in terms of getting involved with the schools and stuff, right, yeah, I was illustrating and I'd thankfully won some competitions at uni.
Speaker 2They'd got me a couple of big ish clients that were using me on a, you know, biannual, maybe four times a year basis, and that that does wonders for confidence. And I was going to lots of networking events. I was caricaturing live events. Um, and it was tough actually, yeah, but I was working hard and I was facilitating the piggy bank by working in bars, doing a lot of cocktail waitressing, what's that you're saying you were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar.
Speaker 1Was that when I met you?
Speaker 2That was when I met you, that's got to stay in the podcast.
Speaker 1That's got to stay.
Speaker 2Can I redo it and sing a little bit better?
Speaker 2No, so you were subsidising your income, subsidising income, working hard, networking, trying to oh, it was business cards back then, so just trying to do stuff for cheaper, Staying busy, really. And then my dad's. My dad was a teacher, like I said. He taught me a lot about art and and certainly fired my passion for it. But he was a a teacher, went on to mainly teach humanities, geography, re history, and then he went on to to to headship, deputy headship first, then headship, but um, it was, it was him that suggested maybe I start to approach schools to see if they wanted. I think he suggested cartoon workshops at first, to be honest, and as much as it really fired the idea, it probably wasn't the best way to go. So you know, I turned my love of street art and graffiti into an initial idea of facilitating that in schools. I was using a lot of the Molotov pens and spray paints at the time and figured it was something that hadn't really been explored but was very popular with, you know, today's youth.
Speaker 1Well, it's not really. Today's youth is it.
Speaker 2You started 15 years ago, Well exactly so, even more popular almost uh, more popular, but I would say as popular, uh, but but still probably a little bit sort of um, a little bit niche, yeah, um. So there'd be certain heads of schools that would hear you could see their reaction. I'm a graffiti artist and they'd be a little bit sick in their mouth really don't spray on my walls. But then there were, for every one of those there was two heads that were like this is cool, this could beautify our school, this will engage our students. They're they're learning with a professional in a safe environment, using the correct safety gear and making art and improving blank walls.
Speaker 2To me it was a winner and after earning my stripes working as a TA in Pruse, talking to a lot of heads you know I worked on a supply basis for six months tried to do as many schools as possible with the purpose of learning how to talk to young people and in the Pruse you've got a very sort of diverse mix of ages, genders and learning, learning requirements that if, if not met, would manifest in a badly behaved sort of reaction. But yeah, just going in and learning how to work and talk to and inspire those types of students and then found some really nice heads that were happy to let me try out workshops and they worked and, to be fair, never really looked back. It's all word of mouth and yeah, it's great. Love the work I do in schools Really do it must be rewarding as well Massively.
Speaker 2Every day is different, Every student's different. You're not just trying to teach them X, Y equals Z, whatever. I suppose in the units where I'm not working with mainstream kids the classic sizes are smaller, so you can really differentiate between needs, hobbies, personalities and you can really hone in on what that person wants to say create, achieve, I suppose. So yeah, it's interesting and and rewarding.
Speaker 1Don't get me wrong, you can have bad days go on, then what's I mean, as I say, working with some of these kids, with some of these behavioral issues. Obviously we're not going to name names or schools or anything but what what's the sort of craziest thing you've had to deal with that you wouldn't have expected, as an artist, to have to deal with I've caught a chair about an inch from my head, and it was a wooden one in a dt room okay, yeah, what warranted the flying chair?
Speaker 2yeah I'd like to say, um, it was my fault, but it wasn't even my fault. I think I was just in the way of a disgruntled student trying to get to another student. Wow. But certainly in the early days, when I was just trying to cut my teeth, I worked in some very intense units where these people staff and students are not having great days, but where else would they be? They're in school to learn things and they have to be in school, but they don't want to be in school and you know it's, it's. It can be quite a volatile environment, do you?
Speaker 1find that some of the more volatile students uh pupils respond differently to you because it's art and you're not trying to ram maths down the throat. I know, this is a similar question to earlier, but Definitely definitely.
Speaker 2I mean, I realise how lucky I am to be going in and not saying sit down, do this. It's sit down, what do you want to do? And that's wicked. I make no bones about it. I'm very lucky to go in and work with these kids in a relaxed way, a friendly way, a respectful way, and it makes my job so much easier that we are able to do something that they want to do.
Speaker 2And you can build all the processes and all the skills into that, because that's what art's about it's. It's about doing what you want to do. And, uh, yeah, I, I, I. I've sat in many staff rooms and half the staff are like, oh brilliant, you know so and so did so well, the way they responded to this, the way they responded to that. I've never seen them achieve such a highly polished piece of work after the two hours, the four hours that you've given it to work with them. But then also you get the glares of oh, why don't they miss behind for him? Do you know what I mean? And it's like any work environment. You're going to get all sorts of different types of people and pupils. They don't all respond amazingly well, but thankfully, in my 12 to 15 years of doing it, it's, it's gone down pretty well and and you know it's- uh, do you know of any success?
Speaker 1I say success. Do you know any of any of your previous students that have gone on to one to actually pursue art as careers?
Speaker 2No, I can't keep us as careers. No, there isn't, if I'm honest. No, there isn't. The students a lot of the students I teach you wouldn't I mean normal students you don't stay in contact with them. And because I work in so many different places over such big areas, and sometimes I don't even go back, A lot of the time I'm invited back, which is great, but you can't twist a school's arm. A lot of the time I'm invited back which is great, but you can't twist a school's arm, and a lot of the time it does come down to budget. I hate saying it, but what I do isn't probably cheap. I think it's good value.
Speaker 1I was going to talk about that. I mean, this is probably not a subject you know huge amount, but I think we're led to believe that funding in schools for arts is always being cut. Are you finding that? Are you losing more schools because of lack of funding and stuff I wouldn't say?
Navigating Art Education and Commissions
Speaker 2I suppose my findings, my understanding of it is it's never fully dropped out, but it moves around what do you mean by that? So there'll be times where I won't do a single school in birmingham, even though that was where I first cut my teeth, got a lot of repeat business. And it won't be because the schools don't think it's vital or even a nice thing to do.
Speaker 1It'll be because the schools just can't afford it and what so that money then goes to a different area and then you get calls from a Leicestershire or somewhere like that, or yeah, yeah, weirdly it's kind of and thankfully for business, I don't know whether it's luck, but there's always been councils, boroughs with money when others haven't.
Speaker 2But you do, you almost you can map it and it drops off and comes back around, sometimes hopefully, but then other times, no, not so much. I don't do much work in birmingham schools as it stands and, if I'm honest, the academy money and academy foundations. They seem to be doing certainly more on the creative front with their funds and I would only assume that is because they have more funds. But that is a complete assumption on my part. Art, unfortunately, or any of the arts, is always put on the back burner. So, elaborating on what you just said in terms of arts funding, does it get spent elsewhere? Yeah, massively. When the government I suppose they did mess up on the allocation of teaching assistant funds. When that happened I had contracted work booked in for months and it all dropped out because they didn't have enough money to pay their existing teaching assistant staff.
Speaker 1That leads me on. I know you've got other clients in that sector, yeah, but what about private commissions then? Yeah, I mean the balance for your work is obviously more schools.
Speaker 2Yeah, I would say there's the school, the educational and the workshop side of it. So, whether that be adults or colleges or schools, that's probably 60% and probably 30% that is contracted and that keeps my mortgage paid, that keeps you know.
Speaker 1But you've had to work up to get to that level, haven't you? I mean, as I say, an artist can't just walk into a school and go.
Speaker 2No, and that's the thing You've got to make sure you inspire, do a great job wherever you go. You can't just walk into a school and go. I really think you'd benefit from what I do. It's all word of mouth, it's all do a good job here and they'll tell another few schools. And I suppose, going back to the academy thing, that's where that helps, because it's run more like a business. If you do a great job at one of their places and it's an umbrella academy for 12 schools, you pretty much know there'll be a meeting about that and you'll get drafted into maybe two or three of the 12, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1Yeah, that makes sense, but yes, you do have to build up to it. I think you've also got to be that temperament as well, because a lot of artists that I meet could never walk into a room and sort of this sounds really harsh but educate a room full of minds. Perhaps it's not social skills, perhaps they haven't got the ability to connect that. I think, like you say, it's that connection and building confidence is people. It's not an easy skill set. Do you think it's just practice that you've developed that?
Speaker 2I think it's practice. Yes, I think that initially there was a huge learning curve. Going into those places and working with those types of students was a huge learning curve and definitely something I needed to do before I even started planning workshops do you think it was a bonus that you were younger, so you're almost closer in age to those people?
Speaker 2so they can see someone. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you didn't get many people working in those schools unless they were there on some sort of bouncer slash schools unless they were there on some sort of bouncer slash, sort of heavy sort of you mean security within the school, security within the school that wanted to work with these kids.
Speaker 2I suppose so being young, being younger, helped, and going in and getting those experiences and working with a lot of different age groups and and, and I suppose, different behavioral issues, uh, really helped. But then I'm a massive believer of you know, I've always been, hopefully very sort of positive. I always try and something my granddad always taught me say hello to everyone, try and find out about everyone, be interested in people, and I think that sort of approach really does help. I would like to think, yes, I'm good at it now, but I would like to think it takes a certain type of person to be able to, because it's not an act.
Speaker 2Kids appreciate honesty. They want to know that you are interested in them. They want you to teach them, with a bit of humility, are interested in them. They want you to teach them with a bit of humility, a little bit of comedy, bounciness, movement, dynamism. You know, I think they thrive off my passion for what I do, and kids want to know am I going to get to do this again? And that to me is great because it means they want to and you know it's not just teaching them art. I think I enjoy being someone that they can just talk to and again, the creativity, the environment that I like to work in and the environment that being creative and working on a painting or an art piece or even just ideas, that environment that's facilitated by all that really does help people talk and not necessarily open up, but barriers come down and you can just chat and grow and get a real sort of engagement.
Speaker 1So, if there's any, artists or creatives listening to this, wanting to get into schools and things like that with, I think, would that be the number one thing. It's not necessarily as much, it's not so much about your practice. It's more about finding connection. I think so I think so.
Speaker 2It's not just you could be the best artist in the world, or you could be the best guitarist in the world, you could be the best mathematician in the world, but if you can't get on with the people you're trying to teach, it's not just about getting on, it's about engaging and inspiring them. If you can't manage that, then it's unfortunately probably not the profession for you. Yeah, and I don't think it's hard either, but I don't think it's hard for me because I, I, just I am, yeah, hopefully you know that's your.
Speaker 1I'll say for you that's your personality. So yeah, that is you.
Speaker 2I'm on my best behavior now because there's a microphone right in front of my face?
Speaker 1No, but you're being modest, you are warm and it is one of the biggest skill sets that I do think that you have that I admire greatly in you that you can connect with absolutely everybody. Oh thanks, dude. No, I think that's a talent in itself and one that I try and adhere to as well as best I possibly can.
Speaker 2Find interest in everybody because everyone and adhere to as well as best I possibly can Well straight back at you.
Speaker 1Find interest in everybody.
Speaker 2Straight back at you.
Speaker 1Everyone's got something.
Speaker 2It's like when we went to Cambodia and made friends with the whole country in a week, In a week yeah, okay.
Speaker 1so is there any other advice that you would give artists and creators if they wanted to try, and it might not even be a full-time thing? Think about giving back, or or. I always go on about this thing your talent plus helping people equals your purpose, and there might be artists or creators listening to this again I'd love to teach a workshop in a school or something. Is there any other advice you give me apart from having to find connection? Maybe some more practical advice of, I think, where to start?
Speaker 2yeah I, there is no easy in. You've got to have a plan and you've got to do a good job all the time, whether that be initially just finding your feet, getting that experience. But when you do you've got to roll it on and you know I'm lucky. It kind of just happened for me, and this is all just thinking back I was.
Speaker 1You say lucky but, as I said, we've discussed it a lot of the time we call it lucky because that's easy. But you've put in loads of hard work, you've got all those connections that you've made. You've learned on the job. Like you say, you've cut your teeth on the job to build those connections and you are the person you are. So I will pull you on that as your best mate as well and say you're not lucky, you work bloody hard.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, but I don't want it to sound like it was a master plan. It really wasn't. I think I just went at it with the best positive mental attitude as I could and, without being fake, was respectful to everyone that I met, nice to everyone that I met, and tried to deliver and made sure people enjoyed my workshops, without cutting corners. I think that's another thing kids really do, really do. I wouldn't say crave, but they appreciate honesty and boundaries and you know if they're mucking about. Have a word with them, but do it respectfully, do it nicely and to the point where they still feel respected.
Speaker 1Humanise them.
Speaker 2Yeah, humanise them and at the end of the day, I never listened to any teacher that ever shouted at me. It was just a shutdown and that will never change. You know that will always be the case. You humanise them and you talk to them respectfully, and that goes a long way across all boundaries. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1We've talked a lot about your, the schools, the education stuff, the workshops, yeah, but you kind of like me have spent. We've developed our skill set me as a photographer, you as an artist, illustrator, being able to just fulfill other people's briefs. Yeah, that's quite limiting right? It?
Speaker 2depends on the people, but but yes, it can be, yeah, frustratingly.
Unleashing Creativity Through Time and Funding
Speaker 1Well, I guess what I'm asking what you do doesn't leave much room for doing the, say, the dream project or even, to a certain extent, hunting down the different commissions that would perhaps be more in your remit. Does that make sense, like I maybe should clarify, because I know you, I know the sort of work that you like, the sort of work that you probably would like to be doing, and, as much as the work that you're doing is wonderful and pays the bills and everything, sometimes it's not hugely exciting for you, is it?
Speaker 2No no.
Speaker 1It's a nice day of work. Yeah, but you're meeting someone else's briefers Exactly and sometimes that's not always exciting.
Speaker 2I think I worked it out four or five years ago. Over a 10-year period I think I only did about four pieces that were driven by myself, and that wasn't through laziness, it was pure lack of time and that's disappointing Again in hindsight. Wow, you know the stuff I should have been doing, you know, alongside, but it's almost like you need an extra day or two, and then family life, friends, and then now I've got my lovely two girls keeps you very busy, but I I do and I'm starting to make time to drive other projects, personal stuff that, as today, is completely funded by myself, and the contract stuff, the commercial stuff that all facilitates.
Speaker 1Okay, driving those projects, okay. So, leading on from that, what would be the dream commission or the dream personal project? Let's take all time restrictions. All those things are out of the equation what what would you like to be doing? Like? What I'm trying to get at is that we've established that in a similar way, we've spent 20 years fulfilling other people's briefs. You even comment on the fact that you're often better as a draftsman fulfilling someone else's brief. So I'm trying to get into, like, what do you want to do?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's the big question. Yeah, I want to be picking my own walls, picking my own projects, but again, it's not something I'm expecting to happen overnight. I am slowly working towards that goal, I suppose I think as an artist you've really got to establish yourself. I I've come at this as an illustrator, you know, got my degree illustration and had to diversify quite a lot along the way, still sticking to the remit, being creative, facilitating other people's briefs. And if I'm completely honest with you, what would I do if I got a wall in the middle of London or Manchester or, you know, brumtown here? I couldn't tell you right now, but I would make sure it would be sort of in an epic.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think that's what I'm trying to get, at the point that….
Speaker 2Well, while we're talking about it, it would be great not only to have the wall, but to have the time. That would be my main gripe. It's not that it hasn't happened because it can't or won't or will never.
Speaker 1And is it a gripe?
Speaker 2Because I understand that it's… yeah, I suppose.
Speaker 1There's an element of comfort, isn't there? You've got your contracted clients.
Speaker 2Define gripe. I've said gripe and now my brain's going. What does gripe mean?
Speaker 1In terms of it's something that maybe niggles away at you. Yeah, you would oh massively, massively.
Speaker 2It niggles away at me so much that I will have ideas. So two years ago I wanted to do this epic Street Fighter piece of eight different canvases encapsulating a lot of retro imagery with the iconic backgrounds and the characters, and then I just didn't have the time to make even one happen. You know, again, let's throw it in there. You love playing devil's advocate as my best mate and it does great on me that I'm not producing the pieces that I know I can.
Speaker 1I understand why, though Because you've got children, you've got a house, you've got responsibilities and you're in a lucky position that your skill set as an artist is paying your way. Why would you jeopardize that? But as your best friend, I will say it I love you and you're so talented and I love you exactly as you are, but I do see you being capable of so much more.
Speaker 2And that's not for me.
Speaker 1That's not my place to push you to do anything, I think I think you have to, not you.
Speaker 2I think everybody has to be aware that they're, they're always capable of more. But I also think and this isn't an excuse, but I am aware that you also can't rush these things or give yourself a hard time, too much of a hard time, if they don't happen overnight. I think, god, you change so much as you get older and then you have different responsibilities and different experiences in life, and they make you and they break you, and then they make you again, and it's one of those, isn't it? I'm aware of what I want to do, but if you sat me down and said draw it, I couldn't right now.
Speaker 2Apart from time, what do you think you need to start making some of these things that you don't know, what they are yet to happen, because I think, deep down, you do know what you'd like, but in some respects, vocalizing is difficult I think it's fair to say and you'll probably have a little smirk at this I'm not the world's deepest thinker and although I I'm aware of what needs to happen and and I'm aware of how to make it happen, try not to dwell on it too much. If and when it happens, I'm, you know, hopefully working towards it. Now I'm taking on less.
Speaker 1I don't want to be the person that feels like I'm putting pressure on you because I've said this. You know, I believe you're capable of so much. Well, I do, but that's not me putting pressure on you. I know I've always appreciated your you know poke the bear attitude and motivational, but that comes in part because I do know how talented you are. You forget that I've watched for all the way through university.
Speaker 1You've watched me colouring for 20 years. Yeah, but again I'm going to pull you on that. You're being humble for the sake of comedy, and I understand why.
Speaker 2Well, we've got to make the people laugh, Matt.
Speaker 1Yeah, maybe because we've also got to try and educate people in the fact that it's possible and you are some of the work I've seen you create in the past, especially when we came straight out of uni at uni pencil sketches that I'm like what the hell am I looking at? You know what?
Exploring Artistic Identity and Creativity
Speaker 2the frustrating thing is and thank you so much to is I know I'm so much better now, 20 years on and, yeah, to make it happen, I just need to carve out the time and I need to put a little bit of money down myself and I need to put myself out there a bit, which I suppose putting yourself out there when you're not quite ready or you don't quite have the time or the means or the confidence, Confidence yeah, yeah, I'd never class myself as unconfident in my own talents.
Speaker 1What I'm saying is that when you get 20 years into a career of constantly meeting someone else's brief, you're being asked to sit on a blank page. Yeah, with not a word to go.
Speaker 2Oh well, I talk about it with people that I work with. You know, across the boards, you know that blank canvas. I've had clients that go do what you want and I'm like that's brilliant. But you're going to have to give me a couple of weeks and you're going to have to give me some sort of start, just a colour maybe, or a style. I think I'm extremely lucky to be able to work in so many styles. I had early work with the Independent, straight out of uni, doing Monet copies and Lowry editions.
Speaker 1And that's great and it gave you confidence then. But what I'm asking is after 20 years of answering other people's briefs, are you? That's where I'm going.
Speaker 2Are you lacking a bit of that confidence? I've adapted in so many different styles. God, if you ask me what my style is, no idea. I know the things that I'm proud of. But when you are working with clients, you also work into the constraint of a brief, yeah, the constraint of uh, finances, a budget, can you do it in two days instead of three? Well, I can do it in one, but it it won't be very good or the style would massively have to change. So, yeah, I suppose money's a huge factor, money and time, and I don't think it's so much a confidence thing, I think it's facilitating that time to just, yeah, start drawing, start creating start an idea, and that's something, as you, you say you're trying to do right yeah, yeah, it's something I want to do, something I will make happen, and I talk about this a lot.
Speaker 1Starting is the hardest bit yeah, so maybe you need I've spoken about this, but a lot before. Maybe you need a few limitations on the thing that you're correct. Maybe it's a sketchbook and you sketch for five minutes a night.
Speaker 2You can spare five minutes maybe this is what I mean. You're already putting the barrier up, but but what I'm saying?
Speaker 1do you understand what I mean? It's like perhaps start something, otherwise you'll just keep talking about it. Yeah, and that can be small, and it should be small, because then it feels manageable. Yeah, you've gone very quiet on me. I'm thinking do I feel, do you feel like I've bullied you somewhat?
Speaker 2a little bit. No, it's. Uh. Well, if I think it has to be done, you've got to poke the bear and you've got to think outward and that's what I'm trying to do. Oh, I know, I'm well aware. I'm well aware I don't, for once, have all the answers.
Speaker 1How can I help you, apart from to keep poking you, but that must get annoying in some way. Is there something more practical that I can do to help you? Do you understand what I mean? I want to try and do something that will help you move forward. You've helped me so much over the years. I want to be able to try and help you achieve more. I don't think poking the bear every time is useful.
Speaker 2I like you poking me. Yeah, keep that one in. Yeah, we'll keep that one. No, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. I'm very. I like to be self-sufficient. I like to be well at the moment. It's best dad in the world. That's what I'm going for at the moment, and work is brilliant. I enjoy it. But you're right, you know me well enough to know that I'm not just going to do that forever. I've got things I want to do, I've got things I want to create and you know the way I'm starting to work is working, so it should facilitate a similar income, but a lot more time, and a lot more time spent being creative.
Speaker 1And where do you start? Where do you start in your brain trying to deal with that blank canvas? What would be? Let's just, I mean, I know you said you can't define your style, but there is graffiti, spray paint. It's very comic book book. How would you sort of I mean what other?
Speaker 2I've always been interested in portraiture anatomy. I think I'd have to start somewhere like that. I like, and I always have drawn sketches and pictures of of iconic music movie stars, I don't know. Class them as retro movies now. Wouldn't they, back in the day, cult classics things?
Speaker 1like that. Yeah, but we'll include some in the show the Fear and Loathing you did, the Biggies, the Tupacs, hip-hop artists, all those sorts of things.
Speaker 2Yeah, but again I'd really want to push myself. So that would be a starter. But I think I can draw and compose a lot better and a lot more interesting stuff now, because I do feel that my skills have come on a lot in the last decade probably.
Speaker 1And do you think? They would accelerate more if you got the time to start doing some of this cursory work.
Speaker 2Get a start, because then an idea evolves, I think the processes would accelerate more. I don't think, skill set-wise, no, but I don't feel that I need to hoik the draftsmanship, the skill sets. I want to be more playful, I want to be more experimental, I want to be more.
Speaker 1So more about the ideation of the concepts.
Navigating Creative Ventures and Artistry
Speaker 2Yes, I've always been really happy with the Naying Fuzzy concept, but I don't think that it's quite understood or lived up to what I would like it to achieve if that makes sense.
Speaker 1Well, you came up with Fuzzy Concepts. That's your brand, isn't it? That's your business. What is a Fuzzy Concepts?
Speaker 2Well, it was derived from what we used to call ourselves, or a lecture used to call us at uni, which was Fluffy Creatives, and it always stuck with me because it was always quite playful and rolled off the tongue quite well. And fluffy creatives went into fuzzy creatives or fluffy concepts and you know, it all started to sound a bit weird. And fuzzy concepts just was one of the many aspects I tried to combine and it just resonated. It wasn't an instant thing and then one day I typed it into Google just to see if anyone was about and there wasn't. There weren't any other fuzzy concepts at that point, but there was a small Wikipedia explanation of, explanation of I suppose the phrase or the two words put together, and it was.
Speaker 2It was quite lengthy, but the thing I took from it, or the thing I gleaned from it, was a creative journey. Not yet realized. That just compounded it for me. I was like that, that is a good name and it's already got a bit of a meaning, a bit of a following. Someone's wrote it down and you're there to clarify that concept yeah, yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2It's give me your creative idea, I will make it happen in no matter what style, what size, what medium, and some clients really get on board with that. In fact, if you were a client, why wouldn't you? You've got a guy, you've got this fuzzy concept that you can go to with your ideas and I would like to think I can deliver them or elaborate on them, improve them, but certainly execute them. However, we try.
Speaker 1So you've been working as fuzzy concept. That's the brand name it all fits.
Speaker 2You're there to clarify people's visions yeah to to yeah, not use the word clarify well, if they've got a fuzzy concept, you're there to help them clarify it.
Speaker 2Right to get an end yeah, I suppose to, to certainly give them options, to to work with them, to to design. I mean, this is the thing as, as a, as a commercial artist, never, ever do you draw something. Very rarely do you draw something. They go yes, perfect. That was exactly what was in my head.
Speaker 2So there are concepts, and sometimes quite lengthy concepts. Sometimes it happens within two or three and they're minor changes. Sometimes you have to bang out five or six before you're even close. And again that comes with the working relationship between myself and the client. Some are very direct. Some come with examples, not examples to copy, but but examples of styles, examples of colours. Some are very, you know, clear on the pantones of their brand and you've got to do your very best to represent them creatively. So you've got to take their brand and not improve it but expand on it and make it interesting, engaging. But again, I quite like working to the constraints of a brief. I've got better at it as I've got more experience. I like to look at it as a challenge, like I think I mentioned earlier about the random word generator. If you have that blank canvas in front of you, just generate some word and give yourself a chance is that some good advice you could take yourself very good advice.
Speaker 1I could tell myself where can I download a random word I think we've spoken about a lot here and I think there's probably people sat here going oh, it's all right for him, he's got all these contracts but, as we've discussed, you've worked hard to gain those contracts yeah, you've really turned your skill set into a commercial venture that is paying you to do what you love.
Speaker 1So I think this is why one of the reasons why I wanted to get you on, because it's inspiring in itself, but you have had to sacrifice on certain levels to do that.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I think you don't get anywhere without sacrifice. There is always a trade off and I think I think that's probably important for people to to accept. But also, you should never settle right. You know, if you, if you have bigger, better ideas, you need to find a way to then explore, experiment and get to those ideas.
Speaker 1I would say that sounds like a very good point to almost end what we've discussed. One question is how do you see your work evolving, moving forward in the future?
Speaker 2I think I touched on it. I'd like to be picking the stuff I want to do. I'd like people. I'd like to see myself where people would come to me and go. I've got this amazing space. What would you like to do in it? But I'm well aware, because my style is so diverse at the moment and because I cover a lot, I'm not the go-to guy for standout pieces of artwork. I'm the go-to guy person to bring to fruition people's creative ideas.
Speaker 1So I think what I Are you saying do you think you have to have a defined style? Then I think it helps.
Speaker 2If you want a larger. I am no expert on social media, as you know, but I think if you want the following, you've got to pigeonhole yourself somewhat. And it was something I almost strived to not do initially with Fuzzy Concept and because I see it as a challenge and because I like to work across different mediums, that was almost a challenge for me. It was certainly something I don't think many people had tried but, as I said, always a trade-off. It probably hasn't helped me in terms of gather a momentum about fuzzy concepts work, because fuzzy concepts work is so diverse.
Speaker 1There's no recognition, there's no I know what you mean, but then, on the same respect, I've watched for 20 years. If you make a very good living as an artist, yeah, with no social media following, really, to say the least, or no style defined and I'll have you know.
Speaker 1I have 900 friends on facebook, okay well, but what I'm trying to emphasize is the point that there are people who go, oh, once I get 10,000 followers, I'll be making it. Well, that's not true. I know artists that have got 20,000 followers and they're still not making ends meet from their art. So I think I understand what you're saying about developing your style and following for that style. Yeah, but I've also there's something to be said for a 20-year career where you've made your art pay, buy your house.
Speaker 2Again, I've been very fortunate. You're going to shout at me if I use the word lucky again, but I have been fortunate to this point and, yeah, it's been a blessing. I have been fortunate to this point and yeah, it's been a blessing. You know, I do what I love every day and every day is different. It's fulfilling. It is hard at times to have a bad day and still flow and gush and exude creativity and all of that, but it's never a chore. Really. I'm blessed to be doing what I enjoy.
Speaker 1But I think there's something to be said going back to you and I have had similar careers, as in I'm a photographer, but I've shot still life, I've shot fashion, I've shot lingerie, I've shot portraiture, I've shot beauty, I've shot cars, I've shot locations. I've shot cars, I've shot locations. And that's not to say that I'm a jack of all trades. It's just that, in some respect, if you don't dip your toe into every bit and get experience, that was what I was always good at. I was like well, you show me the lifestyle, I'll match it. That's similar to we've learned our craft and I think now we've got to that point where we're I I'm less than to say comfortable, but we're in a position Look, I'm doing more art stuff, I've got the podcast, I've got different things. I think it allows you, now you've built those systems in place, to sustain. It allows you that flexibility to perhaps explore those other things, and that's what I hope will happen for you oh, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2I'm well aware I need to obtain, in quite a few levels, social media style content. All of that and it is daunting. Luckily, I know an extremely talented photography filmmaker to uh, to help me on my um, digital and social media and, knowing you, said, what can I do for you earlier yeah, how can I help you out, make me look good on film and then show me how to upload it.
Speaker 1You know as well as I do that I'm learning all this stuff as I go, but my thoughts are is that time's our biggest asset, and time is limited if we don't do it now. And oh indeed, and I want to shine a light on all these people that I'm getting on the podcast, and I'm not going to lie, it's a cheat sheet for me, isn't it? I come and sit and have conversations with people. I just get to learn loads of stuff from people, so that's a win-win for me. Anyway, I think we've spoken about a lot there, and I'm sure there's hours more that we could probably speak about, but you know what I'm going to ask you. I am going to ask you for some sort of quote that you'd like to leave the listeners with, but also someone from your network that you think would be an inspiring guest for the Creative No-Win Podcast moving forward. And you can do them in any order that you like.
Speaker 2Let's go with the quote Now. We touched on it before. I'm not a massively deep thinker and, to be fair, the quote thing really threw me. I went down a rabbit hole, got a bit lost, but I've come back to a writer that I really do enjoy. Again, I don't want to try and bang home that I'm super cultured. I discovered him when watching a film based on his journals, and that was Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas with Johnny Depp and co, and it's Hunter S Thompson would be the quote. There's many, many quotes. They're amazing. Some of them are amazing, but the one I'd like to go with is when the going gets weird, the weird turn professional.
Speaker 1That's a perfect analogy of our careers so far?
Speaker 2Yeah, let's turn our weirdness into a job.
Speaker 1That's basically what we've done, isn't it really? I think it's fitting.
Speaker 2But also, yeah, I think it sort of plays to life as well. Embrace your weird. Embrace your weird, Roll with the crazy, the different and try and leave positive marks.
Speaker 1I like it and that's very apt for us, isn't it really? But? Okay, what about a future guest in your network Future guest.
Speaker 2I would have to recommend that you get the wafflings of Mr Matt Windle. Matt is a very inspiring individual that I met through working with young people in schools. But Matt is an extremely talented poet and an extremely talented boxer as well. He's won belts at commonwealth level and he's also been um. I think the official title is birmingham youth poet laureate oh okay.
Speaker 1So matt windle. I think he sounds like he'll be a fantastic guest, a boxer and a poet Interesting. We've had my friend Paul with me on, who is Mr Poetry, so he's got lots of connection in the poetry world and he's suggested Casey Bailey, who's also a poet, so maybe they know each other.
Speaker 2There's some six degrees. All poets know each other. Is that the rule?
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, same as all artists and photographers. Yeah, we're just making that up completely anyway, for now, matt, I want to say a huge thank you.
Speaker 2I love you, you're my best friend, I just want you to do well, and, as I said, I'm here to help.
Speaker 1If that means babysitting the girls or helping you with social media, yeah, two nights a week would be great mate. Thank you very much. That's open to negotiation anyway. Thanks for doing the creative. Now I'm podcast dude. My absolute pleasure. Love you too, dude. Thank you for listening to the creative noah land podcast. If you found anything inspiring or useful in this episode, please consider subscribing or maybe sharing the episode with a friend. Anything you can do to help promote and support creative noah land is so beneficial and I really appreciate it. Check out the website and sign up to the newsletter to be the first to know of everything that's going on here in creative noah land. Thanks again for listening and until next time.
Speaker 2Explore, inspire and create better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way, and so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question what do I desire you?