#0016 TIM BRET DAY - CAPTURING LEGENDS & CREATING LEGACY!

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land podcast. 

On this episode, we're joined by photographer Tim Bret Day.  Tim is an incredibly talented photographer that I've admired my whole career and someone whose work speaks for itself. Advertising, portraiture, celebrity, books, art. You name it, he's done it.

He's a natural storyteller, and we discuss everything from Tim's dreams of becoming Led Zepplin's next drummer, to his route into the world of photography, our mutual love of Helmut Newton, art and surrealism, Agent Provocateur and creating complex tableau images for their advertising campaigns. And also what it was like to work with icons like David Beckham, Grace Jones and David Bowie, to name just a few.  And... who, out of all of those celebrities has been his favourite person to shoot with.

Amongst all the chat about A-listers and glamorous campaigns, we go deeper and talk about inspiration and much more personal stories about family, legacy, and the work that will be in Tim's Magic Tin. 

Don't worry; I promise that will all make sense once you've listened. 

This episode is packed with stories, and we dance around a lot in this one, so strap in, hold on tight and enjoy some of the stories of The Dark Prince of Acton, Mr. Tim Bret Day.

Be sure to check out the links below to explore Tim's work as you listen.

TIM BRET DAY WEBSITE: https://www.timbretday.com/

TIM BRET PRINT SALES: https://timbretdayart.myshopify.com/

TIM BRET DAY INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/timbretdayphoto/

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:02

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noirland podcast. Look, I'm going to try and keep this intro as short as I can, because this is a big one. On this episode, we're joined by photographer Tim Brettday. Tim is a photographer that I've admired my whole career and someone whose work speaks for itself. You name it. He's done it Advertising, portraiture, celebrity books, art and he's a natural storyteller.

Speaker 1 0:32

So strap in, because we do dance around a lot in this one, talking about everything from Tim's creative journey, our mutual love of Helmut Newton, art and surrealism, agent provocateur and creating complex tableau images for their campaigns, and what it was like to shoot with David Beckham, grace Jones and David Bowie, and who, out of all these celebrities, has been his favorite person to shoot. But amongst all the chat about A-listers and glamorous campaigns, we go deeper and talk about inspiration and much more personal stories about family, about legacy and about the work that will be in Tim's magic tin. Look, don't worry, I promise that will all make sense. Anyway, check out the links to Tim's work while you're listening to the podcast, of course, and, as I say, strap in and enjoy the dark prince of acting, mr Tim Brett Day. Everyone's going to ask you about Bowie, aren't they? Yeah, and don't get me wrong, I love that story and I think the listeners would like to hear it, but it's not going to be. My first question is your first influence of photography from your mum was magic tip nothing.

Speaker 2 2:08

That's the answer. I think that the first influence is so I. I basically was useless at school and and I all I wanted to be was a rock drummer. I was waiting for john bonham to die and leave ledger and of course they were going to ring me. I was going to to join the band. It was all planned out. They obviously didn't and I didn't know what I was going to do with myself. So I got a job. My very first job in photography, which wasn't my intention, was working as a darkroom assistant at a press agency that did paparazzi at the airport. Most of the time it was like bang out for you 10 eights and local newspaper stories and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 2:49

How old were you at?

Speaker 1 2:50

this, point 22. And before that it had all just been. I want to be a drummer, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 2:55

That was it. It was, and I can't even remember the bloody series of events, but I still think you get. You get one person that puts you in the right direction and then it's just how things fall into place. If you're lucky and I think it is luck, I think it's if you seize the opportunity and I was a bit punky and I thought I was cool and interesting and I wasn't, and I was living in Slough, it was not rock and roll and you get a series of events happen.

Speaker 2 3:24

One was in a horrible little group of people who were headed for trouble but who played in loads of bands with, and changing point number one was we went well, we go and see all these Bruce Lee films, you know, like the Slough Granada. And then my mates went oh, we're going to go see this film, the Eyes of Laura Mars. It's got loads of sexy birds and underwear. It's going to go see this film, the Eyes of Laura Mars. It's got loads of sexy birds and underwear. It's going to be great. And I went with some girl called Susan Jones and I remember coming out of there thinking I feel that I connected with it. That film still is the number one influence I then got really into Helmut Jung, massively into Helmut Jung, and I started going out with girls and taking pictures of them, but the band was still being a drummer was still a thing.

Speaker 2 4:05

Then I got this job in the darkroom and, weirdly enough, one of the photographers at work there who had an airside pass they worked freelance for the Evening Standard, evening News, daily Mail everyone, but they also all those papers had their own guy there and we were the dog's body and he came into work one morning. I'd been there about three weeks but oh, one of the photographers just had an attack and died. Anyone fancy being a smudger and that was the second turning point was he went right, you have a rolly flex on the outside. You've got an arm. You took this arm straight up. That's a 10 foot walkie. Tilt it 90 degrees is six foot smiley. You look through the range finder. Never bother, bother, focusing Mecca blitz, flash two, 50th at eight Off. You go there, you go, son. And it was literally out airside, ryan O'Neill coming down the corridor. Look this way, mr O'Neill. Click, click, six foot smiley, actually straight in the deep end. And, yeah, baptism of fire.

Speaker 2 5:03

But working with guys who could do it with their eyes shut and knew all the it was all about concepts was nothing to do. Pictures is irrelevant. Yeah, it was getting the jacob coming off concord at 12 o'clock. Are you prepared to wait for four hours? And I was on shift work so it was like a. I did a six till three, but that was the thing I suddenly thought. What if I was a bit cheeky and used a pseudonym? Because the idea is you take the picture, shoot down to out of airside, order a bike and send the film to wherever? So if you looked around you and saw right, dave Parker was there from the Daily Mail, dennis Stone was there from the Daily Express, so so you'd think right, the evening news isn't covered.

Speaker 1 5:45

This isn't oh, I see you sort of go right those and I've got avenues of tea yeah, I kind of thought infra, penny and he's.

Speaker 2 5:52

Then you always use liverpool players. You know, john barnes. It was like a it's about about 1980, 81, something like that, and that took off. I had this thing where I kind of was like do a role for the agency, a role for the evening stand and role for the evening news, and that took off. I had this thing where I kind of was like do a role for the agency, a role for the evening stand and a role for the evening news. John Barnes, john Aldridge, off they go. And at first no one knew who anyone was. Everyone thought maybe they got them from PA or something like that. But no one put two and two together and then so what?

Speaker 2 6:21

you were using the pseudonym yeah that was it, john bones um, oh, you know it was all liverpool and years later I used that you were photographing them at the airport.

Speaker 2 6:30

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that was all and it was all people. It was all you know. A less celebrities, I've still got a few. I've got diana ross, I found peter sellers yeah, it was all these sort of people and my favorite was always roger moore and jaws. Roger, could yours just lift you up off the ground or something like that, and go, oh, go on. Then you also learned to get the money, put the invoice in, get the picture, and it didn't matter how you got it, you got the picture. So that was a real eye-opener. I still, to this day, have a real you know this, that this, that thing, we all go. Oh, yeah, I'd love to do that and it's oh, will you do it for free? No, anyway, I did that for a year with my friend Adam. Yeah, the better we got at it, the more the competition got, and nicking your car keys and hiding your cameras and tripping you up?

Speaker 1 7:18

Oh, really, just to try and scupper you in the car Brut up.

Speaker 2 7:27

Are you getting the car brutal? Was it that bad? Yeah, proper hardcore guys. They were nice, but like getting away with them getting a picture over you, not a chance, and at this point, are you still?

Speaker 1 7:32

oh, this is just a fun sideline. Yeah, but I still want to be a drummer, yeah okay, so then when did you move on to?

Speaker 2 7:39

because you started photographing bands yeah, and that's what, and that's what happened. I left that job, I got this. I for some reason I can't work out the order of it I was going to the lcp at the time, that not um local technical college at the time and that's that was my first person, the first person who sat me from a job as a graphic designer, because I thought I was going to be going there and doing, you know, raoul rauschenberg and pop art and being all, and it was like no, we've got this, we've got to do a drawing of a lawnmower for the Slough Gazette. And a week into the job he went Tim, can I look? I don't mean to be mean, waste your time really you're not gonna.

Speaker 1 8:15

And I've had I've had so many jobs I was, so I had quite a long period of not having any work and building sites and what have you just because you didn't have that direction or you were so keen on wanting to be the drummer that you thought it just ends me to earn the crust to pay the job.

Speaker 2 8:31

I don't know, honestly, I think you know. I think nowadays everyone would say it was ADHD, or I keep getting told that moment I didn't put two and two together, like in my head john bonham was going to leave, led zeppelin and I was going to join. Yeah, it wasn't. It was like, well, why wouldn't? I'm just waiting for that day. Waiting for that day wasn't waiting for you to die god bless his soul, favorite drummer. But then he said I'm going to send you to this local technical college. You need to go to photography school. But no word for that. I remember walking in slough technical college, another, another joyous place I walked in did not fit, really didn't fit.

Speaker 1 9:08

In what sense didn't you fit though?

Speaker 2 9:09

How I dressed, how I looked. I found that I was a boy. I wasn't a builder. Everyone was doing, you know, building courses and things like that. I remember sitting down on the first day in the refectory and just sitting there on my own thinking, oh, this is uncomfortable, you know, the first sugar lump comes over, then another, then a bowl full of sugar, then a cup and a saucer, and I thought I think it's time to make my exit and I left and I walked down and I was doing an A-level, I think, in geography, so I could get into LCB. So I had to have an A. I didn't get any A-levels and I went down to the art room which, by chance, I met this lady called Penny Charrington, who she'd been at Chelsea Art School. She just went oh my God, you're a bit of a wrong and I went. Well, thank you very much.

Speaker 2 9:53

She took it as a compliment and she said why don't you do art A-level? I said, well, I've never done art, I can get you through art A-level. When are you leaving? I, when are you leaving? I said, well, I think the geography a level in june or something.

Speaker 1 10:03

so it was like eight months of me so is this your first kind of input into, say, art? Rather, yeah, in terms of you obviously do music, you're obviously aware of album art and all these things, but so actually for you to be creating or thinking about doing art for yourself, yeah, 100, and she was just amazing, she was just great.

Speaker 2 10:23

She went. Don't ever go in the refectory again, because next time it won't be nice, trust me. Just come here, do your art every lunchtime, just do it. I kept my job at Brennard's going. We kept the weekends and evening shifts there.

Speaker 1 10:36

So a real nurturing influence.

Speaker 2 10:37

So it was a bit of a yeah, oh, she completely. And then she said why don't you go to LCP? And I went I won't get into that and I did. I think she got me in.

Speaker 1 10:45

I don't know how she knew someone, or just through creating a portfolio of work through those art classes.

Exploring Early Photography Career Path

Speaker 2 10:50

I did it in like no time at all. I had a muse at the time, a girl that went out with it was very pretty. It looked a bit like Brooke Shields, a Nikon FM that I got from work and I shot all my early pictures and you know kind of had a talent for it or whatever. But I loved the idea of photographing a girl and creating these little stories, the Helmut Newton absolutely. They were all Helmut Newton ripples all the time. Love the man and I love the humor and have you read his autobiography?

Speaker 2 11:19

yeah, absolutely amazing well, the museum in Berlin if you've been to that.

Speaker 1 11:23

I haven't no foundations amazing, absolutely brilliant so during that time you're producing photographs, is it more? Even though it's more, and would that be what? The equivalent of an art foundation course?

Speaker 2 11:34

now, where you dip your toe into bits of everything, or did you actually?

Speaker 2 11:37

in terms of the photography I did it, I think I remember it's called. You did film, tv and something. And then as soon as I arrived, I was playing in a band and one of the guys ended up in Iron Maiden Actually I've forgotten his name, but he had a girlfriend who came over from Japan who was a journalist, and he didn't want to go out with her. He said, Tim, any chance you could pick her up at the airport and take her back to yours. And I kind, of course, I get back there and she's heartbroken. And then she went, will you take pictures? And I said yes. She said, look, I've got to do all these gigs. If I give you three, four gigs a week, could you photograph them and send the pictures to Japan? So I'm like, absolutely so I quit my job. I still worked at Bernard's at the weekend and I went to college in the week and then usually Wednesday, Thursday, Friday night I'd go to the marquee or the Roxy or 100 Club or whatever it was.

Speaker 2 12:30

I used to do the shoot. Three rolls of black and white, two rolls of colour. Go home, Patterson tank, process them. Patterson enlarger pull the toilet seat down, put the enlarger on top, do a contact sheet. Three sheets of contact, pick up two rolls of colour, one sixth and tungsten. Next morning send to japan 30 pounds. Thank you very much. Never even gave a shit who the band was or, and at the time, 1981, it was 82. It was like, uh, all those bands were happening and I'm. And when I was at lockdown happened. I went to my mom's and I found some of the old necks. I thought I I'd sent everything off and there was a neg case with Irish band gobby fella, weird hair, and it was U2. But you shot a lot, didn't you? I shot a lot.

Speaker 2 13:12

And there seemed to be the Brennards. You know the press thing had just taught me I'd get in the pit for three songs, which is what everyone got Don't get in my fucking way. And I shot, got yeah, don't get in my fucking way. And I shot it all available like 160 times and push two stops and try x at 800, and and then she started getting interviews and she can you cover this interview for me? And I'd shot, anyway, shooting echo and the bunny man the machine had around can't remember, or culture club, yeah, and just going along and just doing them, not with any kind of plan, and then I was doing that and then I obviously so more on a portraiture base, then yeah, like live gigs pr.

Speaker 1 13:50

Yeah, this is the band.

Speaker 2 13:51

We sat down with an interview but at college I suddenly I don't think I think I was doing portraiture, even though I mean I would advocate college because I only knew helmet, you and keyboard and that was all I knew. But a college was good because it showed me Edward Weston, it showed me you know um Steichen Stieglitz, it showed me.

Speaker 1 14:08

But is this where you found surrealism, or is that later? Oh god knows, I don't know where that comes from because obviously you cite that as quite a reference and I know we're jumping ahead. But to your future work, obviously I see that yeah, a huge amount, so I'm just wondering why you're dipping the your toe in the art world. You're looking at new and you're looking at edward weston in terms of a photography point of view, but not so much the surrealist?

Speaker 2 14:31

no, not at all, I don't think I. I think to me it was about and it was a degree of lifestyle to it, but it was where it took me. So I'm at college, I've got the job, I started assisting a little bit and I leave college with, I say, a degree. I think I've got a degree. It wasn't a very good one, but I had to write an essay but that's what a lot of people.

Photography Assistant's Turbulent Mentorship Experience

Speaker 1 14:54

You end up writing a dissertation. You could have the most beautiful body of work, but if you can't spell or write, yeah, same with Bailey with his dyslexia, isn't it? He's like I can make a picture and I can explain it.

Speaker 2 15:03

Well, I think it works both ways. I think sometimes I get aggravated because I'm not ignorant about art, but I hate a picture of a pencil and someone's writing about oh, this was taken by this person and they were abused and this was what happened. It's a counter-cultural reaction to say and I sit there again, picture of a pencil, I've still got a bit of a newspaper. What is it what you're selling? What?

Speaker 1 15:26

you're doing what?

Speaker 2 15:27

you're trying to say, and so I never. That's why I never see myself as an artist as such and that's a massive Helmut Newton influence.

Speaker 1 15:33

Yeah, he's never going to.

Speaker 2 15:34

I'm not doing it unless there's a reason, you know, and what was lovely was that the reason and more elaborate. So I do the, you know, assisting landed on my feet in terms of assisted food photographers, all kinds of people this is the synergy, because I did exactly the same.

Speaker 1 15:51

I did food photographers, car photographers fashion photographers I mean, it's a different world it changed for me.

Speaker 2 15:58

I think that the next change after penny tarranton god rest his soul neil kirk was. So I was assisted doing food and I was doing this thing. I think the food truck brought up with it and provided for my labouring skills. So I built his kitchen and we didn't seem to shoot very much. I was getting like I'm not going anywhere with this. Where do I go? Actually, if I'm honest, I fell out. He hadn't paid me for months and I picked up his Hassselblad case and went you'll get this back when you pay me, because I'm this, you're just taking piss. So that old brutal side, you know where does that come from?

Speaker 1 16:31

the drummer in you? No, I think it came from um, the airport completely?

Speaker 2 16:35

yeah, it was. I still had that thing. What's that? Don king says it's not, it's not how good you are, it's the deal that you negotiate. And you know I'm not money-minded, I'm not clever about anything like that, but I hate that feeling of someone. I'd do something for free, I'd give a print way. I've got no problems in it if I think someone's taking the piss, I'm a terror. You know it's not going to happen.

Speaker 2 16:56

And I drove home, I went to vestry street and I knew there were loads of photographers in vestry street at the time and I went to see Victor Ewan who was a fashion photographer, brian Seward, who was a car photographer, and I literally went up nope, nope, nope, nope, got to the top floor and I met this character called Neil Kerr who at the time was huge. He was doing all the Roxy album covers and shooting loads of fashion. He was really rated, everyone really rated him, and he didn't even look up from the light box and he was he's a very hard person to light unless you really like. You know perverse characters because of the six of the weirdest people I've ever met. He could be really lovely, he could be a monster and he didn't even look up from the light box and can you drive?

Speaker 2 17:37

And I went, yeah. You said, yeah, do you have an hgv license? I do actually. Yeah, have you got an american passport or visa? You know at the time, yeah, I've been there with my girlfriend that summer. I went, yeah, and he went, okay, well, I'll see you at heathrow on monday and then bye. I don't remember him actually looking up. He was editing film on the light box and I turned up monday morning and was like boom, you know that's quite a list of specific things.

Speaker 2 18:02

I mean an hgv license, for one is quite specific yeah, it was just driving vans and things like that in america and it was really random. I mean, he didn't ask me if I knew that.

Speaker 1 18:13

I mean fortunately didn't ask you how to do. You know how to load a camera.

Speaker 2 18:16

Yeah, you know nothing like that process film and because his, his whole style was completely basic. I mean it was like he shot on X-Chrome 64. He shot lots of long lenses, two and 300, low f-stop lenses, fast lenses. That was his style. If it got technical he'd be like, well, can we get one of those redhead things and put one on? And there was no lighting, but he didn't need it. His big influence was Martin McCassey's style and spontaneity and spontaneity and style. There's two books.

Speaker 2 18:48

Neil could make models move and we all know it. We get the guy come in who's new and doesn't know how to do it and they're wooden and you're thinking, oh my God, and that old, you know. When you start out and you're like people say what do you say to them to do? In fact, an interesting thing was a car photographer when I was working at Neil's came up one day and he went I've got to shoot this model. And they weren't the car company, it was once again in and out of the car.

Speaker 2 19:12

What do I do? Any chance you could just go and shoot? I went yeah, sure, he's lit the car perfectly and I've gone right. All right, just sit in the car you drive. You've just sit in the car you drive. You just get out this amazing car, fabulous. And then you get out, you look a million dollars, drop the fur coat on the floor and walk away and girl just does it. Yeah, did it three times, but there you went. Oh my god. But that's what I learned with neil. I just learned get the girl in there, give her a mark to work off and then move it's and we'll, we'll find it yeah we'll find it.

Speaker 2 19:43

It's not about being you it it's not about being you know, still life talkers want precision, they want it to be exactly in control, and Neil had this. You can't do that with people. You can't. And then the funny thing was when I left after a year or so with Neil, which was turbulent.

Speaker 1 19:58

In what way was it turbulent?

Speaker 2 20:05

Just because it was difficult school, um, difficult, really difficult could be, really. He thought it's hilarious to tell you the wrong airport, or he would do neil would say I remember being on a beach and going to crane beach in barbados, and that's where I'm, neil. I didn't go home for 15 months, I don't think, I barely. It was like what the hell? I mean, we went from new york and I went to la, then went to hawaii, then we got to l for a couple of days. Wow, and it was like proper, what you'd imagine fashion photographers were like at that time. And I remember he went oh, you used to call me Mr Tim.

Speaker 2 20:34

Mr Tim, why are you bringing that ghastly 300 millimeter? We don't need a 300 millimeter lens. Okay, so I leave the big Nikon case at the hotel, get to the beach, walk all the way down the stairs, get on the beach. Right, where's the 300? Oh, I'm afraid Mr Tim forgot to bring a lens. Everyone back in the van. We need to go back to the hotel. God only knows why, but that's how it works.

Speaker 1 20:55

That's so strange. And, to tell you, the wrong airport seems to me as someone who worked in a system that was bare basic minimum.

Speaker 2 21:01

That Bare basic minimum, that was like I went to the Mardi Gras in New Orleans with three of the top models in the world. You've been thrown off. And he rang me after two days he went. Oh, I decided to go on holiday and we decided to shoot a campaign out in Greece. Can you tell the whatever her name is from the magazine that I won't be there?

Speaker 1 21:22

There must have been some serious budgets knock around at those times Just to be able to get away with that. Just to show you how perverse it was.

Transitioning to Solo Photography Career

Speaker 2 21:28

She's like he is dead. He will never work again in this town. I hate him, tell him he's a bastard and all this. Oh God, this is awful like this. I fly back to London About two weeks later. I was like can you get a grey colour armour? What we're shooting it was that magazine, neil darling. How are you carried on like nothing happened?

Speaker 1 21:53

so how did you make the break from being an assistant to shooting more of your own bit trickier?

Speaker 2 21:58

that bit I knew with Neil I got to the end. I had a particularly turbulent last trip in the Bahamas and I probably did something I shouldn't have done. I wasn't late. I'd like to just in my defense, your Honor, and he just put me through the ringer. Absolutely Don't touch the cameras. Why are you loading film, mr Sim? Mr Sim, why don't you just go back to your room? You're not interested in this.

Speaker 2 22:23

And oh, I went on. It went on for a week and I was just time to leave time and I had a period when I left for six months where I was living in Stockwell and, uh, I used to get up every morning, go to the local pool, kennington pool, and swim a mile, come back home, have beans and toast, sit around, go back to the pool another mile. I mean, I was ripped and I thought I'd lost my confidence, my mojo was gone. And next person in your life you know when you take sliding doors was probably a lady I'd worked with with Neil, pat Crouch, and she did a magazine called Honey and it started so many young photographers mario testino, class whitcraft, neil tony really was amazing magazine and she rang me up one day and kind of went what you doing sitting on your ass. You're right, you're doing a test for me with judith, my sister, and she made me do the test and I really, really didn't want to do it. I was just like I don't want to do what?

Speaker 1 23:23

just because you'd been out of it so long and you were sort of what it was no, it was just, I just didn't, I just didn't think it was.

Speaker 2 23:30

It just annihilated my confidence. You know that's what it is and it is all confidence. And I'd overthought everything and I did a test with judy and that was it. Oh, oh, yeah, I'm doing this. And then I started testing. Pat was amazing. She gave me like some early intro pages, gave me a main fashion story, and the nice thing was then you work with people on the up and up, you know so, people at the time who in five years time, were like top of the games. Yeah, so I work with really good hair and makeup people. Pat was was fantastic. Kim and Judith were really helpful to me.

Speaker 1 24:06

And what are you creating in these tests? I mean because a lot of people when they go on photography I know you're working now, but is it on the same rounds or was it? Simple backgrounds, simple fashion.

Speaker 2 24:17

I was shooting. No word for lie. I used to take two old-fashioned 1K tungsten lights a 5.4, an old-fashioned Gandk tungsten lights a 5.4, a wooden, old-fashioned gandolpe wooden tripod.

Speaker 2 24:28

I used to take it on the tube and go and shoot on my own, no assistant, 5.4 dark slides loading it, unloading it, how I did it, I have no idea, but I had no idea about budgets or anything. That was great, that was a real good thing. But then what happened was people said again yeah, but can't you shoot, like Neil, a bit more? And I suddenly I saw that my route definitely got you noticed. So I think then, people, they wanted that, that quality of photographers with me, and I thought, well, I don't want to be one of these bulk standard photographers. That is what fashion is a lot of the time, dress it up how you like and I'd love to be weird and wacky all the time, but if you can do catalogs or if you're going to shoot next or you're going to shoot money, it's 200, 300 mil lens, nikon, bosh, bosh, bosh three rows beyond that door.

Speaker 2 25:22

So I had a duality which I think all photographers do you know. One of the things that door. So I had a duality which I think all photographers do you know. One of the things that I'd always credit to Neil was I went out and I tried to shoot down the mouth on the 300mm lens like Neil did. Well, it wasn't quite as easy as I thought. With Neil it would be just like this oh, stick the camera here. Three rolls of film Next, Never changed the background, Never did, and it was like the next shot goes with this, this goes with that. This is this. Wow, Simple, no, doing a crop, don't do a full length. It was, that's the shot, move on. You know, but I picked it up and again, that's where the pseudonyms came in.

Speaker 1 26:10

I one.

Speaker 2 26:10

I was doing honey, but then I started doing cosmopolitan and you did cosmopolitan, it shut the door to l. If you did this l, it shut the door to harper's, still using liverpool, so yeah it was, so if you look through about, 1994 to 1990.

Speaker 2 26:16

Most of the editorials john banshut, a lot, though I think there's a few rodney wheelans there's, there's a few names in there, yeah, and mulby it would crop up and cosmo, to their credit, were were amazing, gave me those trips in. Web was doing blitz, which was like the face. Face was off limits, you couldn't get in. There was close shot, but blitz was really good. Ian was another one that kind of got wise and went. Actually I quite like to be the fashion editor at harper's and is this what opened the door up to those other?

Speaker 1 26:43

yeah, I went with you ended up shooting for face and id yeah, I did all those things.

Speaker 2 26:47

but ian was really interesting because, yeah, he was doing blitz and doing, I think, really really innovative work. You know, desperately wanted to shoot that kind of thing and then but my first break with him came, I remember he went to tenerife I look at the pictures now and pat was giving me a magazine called the Magazine, where she really let me do what I wanted to do and I shot six, seven.

Speaker 1 27:10

I just shot with more of a sense of design, sorry she gave you a sense that you could do what you wanted, what did?

Speaker 2 27:19

you want to do with that?

Speaker 1 27:20

What were you?

Speaker 2 27:21

I like that, I like the technical challenge. I want to delight, because one thing I with neil was just just, I mean, give an example. I remember going to paris to pin up my been cartier and we shot with amanda casley it was one of the madonna girls, great girl, hilarious and he said, oh, get to the studio. I mean I don't know, just get everything. So I go there, I set up an msq with a quadra, I set up some tungsten with like direction line, I do this, I do that, I've got four setups all ready to go, everything's. And neil rolls in and goes who, what's behind the curtain?

Speaker 1 27:57

oh, window oh, that's lovely let's shoot it there.

Speaker 2 28:00

Just wrote three rolls of film. Yeah, shot the three rolls from right. Where are we going to lunch? And and the client again. But we have, he's going. No, we've got it.

Speaker 1 28:08

Really Right lunch and you've spent all that time all these intricate lighting so, but I loved him for that the picture was great.

Speaker 2 28:16

Yeah, it was really. You know, style is something that Neil definitely had. Style and, I think, think, which we talked about the other day the curation of learning. You know, maybe at college you learn western and stieglitz and all those people. With neil I learned lots of, a lot of important fashion people like michael roberts he worked with michael loads and other people came into neil's life, like brian ferry because he'd do the roxy covers, and there were, there were lots of people who massively influenced him. You know, I'm not being mean, neil's pictures never turned me on, but I'd always look and think that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 28:53

We shot Jaeger campaigns and Jaeger was a really boring brand at the time and Neil would be on the plane and read Architectural Digest and go oh, I found this marvelous house. We're not going to go to New York, let's go to Chicago. And we would. And we'd land in New York, fly to Chicago and you'd find that there was a little plane connection and we'd get on a six-seater plane, fly to Pelston, shoot at this house. It was just done and you went with what Milsaul had, a beautiful sense of soft light.

Speaker 2 29:22

You know he knew the right time. We were up early and you'd be. You know like we would now go oh, the light's just right. At the end of it he'd go, no, it's too orange. There wasn't color correction. Then he knew exactly. He knew what x chrome 64 did, yeah, but he knew it. I think we used a reflector once. I think that was almost kind of like. Really it folds out. Oh it's. Wow, that's interesting. But I don't think we'll bother with that. He'd just wait. You know some of the locations that you went to and you think, why is he waiting all day? And then we'd shoot in the right place perfect five minutes with that five minute window.

Speaker 1 29:56

Oh yeah, yeah, really nice it was beautiful, they're great. Yeah, much harder than people realize are you learning at that point from people like Neil that style is important, yeah 100%, I think I'd see.

Speaker 2 30:09

you know I've worked with Neil. The first models I worked with, Neil Kirk were people like Susie Bick. You know he was married to Nick Cave, but Susie at the time was a bit crazy, a bit spontaneous. Jenny Howarths, these girls are right at the top of their game, Real personalities, you know, tricky, Lovely but tricky. They've got their own agenda, their party and they're making their way in the industry.

Speaker 1 30:34

Would you say it's definitely a different era of fashion back then.

Speaker 2 30:38

Yeah, I would, I think. Then it was just this. There was this crazy crew. Everyone wanted to be part of this gang. You know what the face was. It was like all these people were so cool and yet you met them and you were like not really, but their curation and a lot of the time people like that more. It's more about sometimes how you live.

Speaker 2 30:59

I lived in this squat for three or four years with all these cool people. I am not cool by any stretch of the imagination and I would literally come home and there'd be boy George and Marilyn snogging on my sofa and I'd go in the kitchen and be like you've drunk all the milk I don't fucking believe this and I'd measure my milk. My room was really tidy. Everyone else was like crazy in it and it was just madness we and in fact someone showed me I was on top of the list to go to taboo it's in that fashion museum at the moment and there's my name at the top of the list and I'm thinking I win. But I wasn't cool. We were definitely around. People who were had no awareness of it at all. I was really determined. I wanted to get up. I probably wanted to get where Neil had been.

Speaker 1 31:50

So at this point you've given up waiting for John Bonham to. You've taken the bit by the teeth and gone with photography. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 31:56

I still have two things. I still wait for George at Anfield if I go to Anfield, but I think probably two years ago I suddenly realised George isn't going to say today's number 12 is Tim Redday. He's going to play in Midfield. Oh, that's good. That's not going to happen. I was mature about it. I was about 59 when I stopped dreaming about playing for Liverpool. I haven't given up. Maybe Jason Bonham's going to die now.

Speaker 1 32:22

They're going to ring me up. Do you still drum? Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. Can you think of a moment when drumming did fall, by the way?

Speaker 2 32:29

so still in your, still in there, you're if I got the choice tomorrow if I had the ability, I had a 25, which I definitely haven't got now. And now the drummers are just so much better. Same with it's like I mean people don't realize that when, say, like when I was working for Neil, I could probably name the photographers working in London. So Stuart McLeod did all the beauty, John Swinell, Tony McGee, Neil Kirk, and then up and comings were Martin Brady, Mario Testino, you know, Victor Ewan, but if there was 20, there'd be a push. But if there was 20, there'd be a push. They just did everything and then you built up. You know I was lucky in the sense that I obviously did something and then someone would talk and or someone would move on. And you know, like I say, Ian went from ES, then he did a magazine called Reaver, Then he took me to Harper's. Then once Harper's started new, there was a little bit of a we want to get him.

Speaker 1 33:27

So l started to book me so you become that sort of name that people want yeah what and I'm going back to that question about are you developing style at this point, do you think? Are you aware of that?

Influences and Evolution in Fashion

Speaker 2 33:37

you develop star, but you're also learning how to light and 96, I don't remember exactly. I had a a bit of an epiphany, so everyone was shooting in this style. Then Grunge came along. You know the Larry Clark influence came in Corin Day massive fan of David Sims, massive fan of Teller, Jürgen Teller. Yeah, jürgen, those people came through.

Speaker 1 34:00

Did you like that style? Because it's very much. It was that kind of heroine chic and then you've got the testinos that are doing the later, that do the instantly change, didn't it?

Speaker 2 34:09

Yeah, I think you liked it because it wasn't what was around and that's what everyone does. That's what fashion trends do you know one minute?

Speaker 1 34:17

But were you going down that fashion trend of like that heroine chic, that grungy, or was it just the nature? Because obviously your work, if anyone looks at it, it's super polished, super instructive it is now.

Speaker 2 34:30

That's what I'm getting at.

Speaker 1 34:31

And I'm trying to find how you got that style.

Speaker 2 34:33

Well, I think I would shoot. I mean, I'd say the next massive influence with me was Roberto, who was my black and white printer. He was like my dad. I'm still really tight with his wife and daughter after he died. And he died very young, he died at 47.

Speaker 2 34:51

And I used to do my trips and I'd shoot like 10 rolls of Pentax 67. I wouldn't shoot Pentax 67 for Next and Barbades. I'd shoot on a Nikon, on the 200, 300. That's what we did. 105, maybe if you were really pushing the boat out, going avant-garde. But all the best locations in the world yeah, I had my face and go, oh my God, not St James's again.

Speaker 2 35:17

You know I did a bit. Yeah, probably, but it was just handed to you on a plate. You know you just did. I had all these clint burton groups, so dorothy perkins and laura ashley. Next, I can't remember all the catalogs. You were just constantly away and I loved that lifestyle 100. I was so like neil. I remember getting it was a turning point. Actually, what I had was getting in a lift in miami and I had a little billing in bag. I'd had the same Nikon FM with the motor drive since I started and I think I'd splashed out and got a spare one and a reflector. And this photographer got in with a you know, got everything. He's got all the scrims. I was like scrim yeah.

Speaker 2 35:59

What's that 20 foot, what? 12 foot scrim, what? I didn't had no idea about lighting and I thought all the time in that period from 94 to 98, it was, yeah, it was that thing where, okay, I need to know. And I remember getting one of my very first advertising jobs and the guy went, yeah, can we knock the background out of focus? But I was lighting it with an MSQ and I shot it in an RZ and I only had one lens, oh really, and I was like you knew, and I don't know how to do this. And he kept going on and on and I kept going doing a kneel and going, no, this is how to shoot it. And he was like, no, I want it out of focus. And having a day that day thinking, right, I need to know how to do this.

Speaker 1 36:42

And funny enough, would you say you were still sort of winging it then at that time yeah, I still am I suppose you know it's a recurring theme as well. Yeah, it's a recurring thing with the whole life.

Speaker 2 36:51

But I say winging it, you know it's. I always remember assistants used to say to me oh, I work with corinne day and I do all corinne's light and I go corinne shoots day night yeah and I reflect yeah, you know you're and she doesn't know what she's doing. I'm going, I think you'll find she does. I think coin knows exactly what she's doing.

Speaker 2 37:09

It's in her attitude, it's in how you deal with the models, necessarily the technicalities, yeah you can create an atmosphere on the day, neil, there was an it was an undercurrent of I better not piss him off whereas I assisted only very, very briefly, like four days. I assisted power reversing and we shot on 10-8 Polaroid minimum, minimum lighting, long exposures, and the guy was just charming, absolutely lovely to work with and my evolution would have been when I left, niels was. I'm never treating my assistant like that. I don't believe in head fucks. I remember I'd show Nuce weber and he'll go, oh really crass and and then you go rip it off and I've seen again hold on a minute and it was but that's that's how you know it was it was perverse.

Speaker 2 37:57

He was a very perverse man. Fashion is perverse and I always say to anyone doing it I think I can tell you this story carl templer, who was a brilliant stylist, carl basically went I'm skin, I'm shooting the face, I'm shooting all this cool stuff. I've got no money. Right, you book me for harrods and I'll get you in. You'll do hype, you'll do the one picture at the beginning. You've got nothing to lose. And it went really well.

Speaker 2 38:23

I loved Carl's bits. Carl thought on his feet Absolutely amazing guy. I really had a lot of time for him and he gave me a real confidence in myself. I think I shot some really lovely pictures for him and I remember him saying look, I've got off at a job at Arena. I'm going to meet people Now. Look, this is fashion in a nutshell Viewers listening headlink. And meet people now. Look, this is fashion in a nutshell viewers listening heavily. And it is the truth. You will meet people in fashion and they will go do you get the joke? You know, somewhere along the line it'll be a do you get this? And you're now. Your natural reaction is to go yes and I'll go. Well, there wasn't a joke. So what do you mean you get it if you say no, they let you up and down and go.

Speaker 1 39:06

Yeah, I didn't think you were is that similar to what neil saw, didn't you saw game?

Speaker 2 39:11

play. I adored me really. It was probably about 98 that penny drop and carl said to me because I'm a gobshite and I talk too much and I'm enthusiastic, I've always got the enthusiasm shut up. I'm sitting there going. Do you get the joke? I'm going, don't say anything to him.

Speaker 2 39:29

Yeah, it's really funny. No, there isn't one. That carries on the art is to say nothing. I can't speak for Jürgen. I think Jürgen is the master of the P. Know the posh spice Marc Jacobs campaign. Yeah, I double dare you to say that's not cool. And if you go, it isn't they go. I didn't think you'd get it and it's that. If you go, oh, it's really cool, it's pretentious.

Speaker 1 39:57

So it's you can't win, there's no win.

Photography Evolution in Digital Era

Speaker 2 39:58

But you have to learn to live with that thing where you don't give anything away. I think that's really key. It wasn't for me, I probably lost out on some really key opportunities. Like I went to new york and I think the guy who booked me for w magazine and he just loved me for pure enthusiasm I would be like can you shoot this? Yeah, how exciting. And he wasn't used to that. He was used to that, how boring. And I was just like, yeah, can't wait. Do you think that opened more?

Speaker 1 40:28

doors for you Opened different doors Because people were probably so used to that pretentious darling, da-da-da-da-da, I don't know.

Speaker 2 40:41

I mean I'm sure people Do you well, that's my mum's roots, maybe, but no, I don't think so. I think it's more from Neil and being. I don't want to be treated like that because I actually, weirdly enough, I love Neil. You know, like when you assist and someone's giving those opportunities, I did appreciate it and I would have walked through walls for him and yet that wasn't what he wanted.

Speaker 1 41:01

I've been assisted photographers who I would have done anything for, and then something happens and you go. Oh, you pushed me under the bus that quickly. Oh right, Okay.

Speaker 2 41:10

I had a funny thing where anything I did wrong and I got absolutely crucified and he had an assistant after me who wrote off a Winnebago and he goes. Oh my God, sean just wrote off the whole air conditioning system on top of the Winnebago by trying to drive it into a parking space. How hilarious, and I'd be like if I did that I'd get murdered for it. But it's just perversity and it's learning, I think most people I mean after. You know, I had that long run and I went to New York. The thing I didn't realize was, as soon as you left New York, they weren't interested in you. You had to be there. It's like each country has a different thing. Paris is another one. You can go to Paris and the best body of work and they'll ask you somewhere in the line do you live here? And if you go, no, but I can get over here on the Eurostar, which is true, and at that time it was like no, no, and you know there was an Ben Hassett and Ben went to Paris.

Speaker 2 42:02

I know Ben's work just beautiful, best beauty shop in the world for me, I'll be up there and agree with him.

Speaker 1 42:08

I think he's as near as to Penn as I've seen anyone.

Speaker 2 42:11

I really rate Ben, but he went to live in Paris and he paid his dues, paying your dues. I don't know if it's the same now, I think it is, but Ben worked really hard for that and took some chances and you know, and he learned the technique. You know, if you ask me to open photoshop, I don't know how to do it right. I don't know anything about cameras. If you put a camera in front of me now, you know I and I watch people. Oh, I can film that in 4k and I can. You know it can like my own farts. It can be all kinds of stuff. I'm like amazing, what? Where's the button just put it on? Or to monk? Is there a button with a monkey on?

Speaker 3 42:44

it that one Put it on there I think you're underselling yourself a little bit there too. No, seriously I don't.

Speaker 2 42:49

I know daylight exposure. That's about it. I can't believe it.

Speaker 1 42:54

You're exposing in concerts and bars and airports with a mess flat. I know you've been given the.

Speaker 2 43:03

I know the format. No, no, I'm not. I know the format. I've always had great assistance, you know, I think when I was at the studio I saw Actually something that happened with when I was saying about Roberto, he kept saying to me stop doing all these predictable pictures. Do the stuff that you do when you come back from trips. And at the time that was very nothing to do with. It was reportage or anything. It was just straight from the heart. I would take pictures that I really wanted to take. I was very bruce weber but I was like I just knew that I wanted the model to go. I'm loving this. I'm loving having my picture taken, and I lived with a guy in new y but he was Bruce's first assistant and models would come around and I'd just die. I'd do anything Bruce asked me to do to have a picture taken. I probably would have the same it was. I wanted people to think like that about me. I didn't care whether it was lit with Don't flash daylight, didn't matter.

Speaker 2 44:01

And with Rob he said, do the things you want. And I didn't matter, it's just. And with rob he said do the things you want and I had a real when rob died I definitely had a real sorry.

Speaker 2 44:08

who's rob? Oh, he was a black and white prince. Oh, sorry, yes, yeah, rob died. I played football with rob for years. Just larger than I. I can't talk to him, to be honest, gets you upset, he really.

Speaker 2 44:18

And I suddenly thought right, and I hired. I had a space, an office space underneath brody's in Covent Garden, and an assistant of mine had a couple of strip lights and a MSQ and a beauty dish and I'd say probably in six months of being there in a tiny space half the size of this, I could just about get a couple of arm up. I kind of went oh, there's two strip lights down the side. And then I know exactly when, this was 98. And I met Lee, a guy called Lee Stewart and Lee was he'd been a hand retoucher on transparency and he'd been employed to sell Dykemed, which was like a pioneering Photoshop and it was digital. And I have got no idea about digital at all.

Speaker 2 45:06

And I'm thinking when I do this two side strip light thing, that came a bit, that's a bit funky, it was horrible. And they showed up all the and he goes, oh, soon, get rid of that Big waxy skin. And I went oh, I like that toy, that's the toy for me, matey boy, and 98, 99, those two two years. I overdid it with the waxy skin 100, but no one else was doing it. I remember taking a shoot to l on the cd and then going sorry, and I went have you got a computer? And it was dial up it was just yeah 98 yeah, and we're sitting here, oh, there's a picture.

Speaker 2 45:46

And they were like so what do we do with it now? And even the magazines were like, oh, we've got one computer, bob has a computer, the man with the pipe. But I remember thinking, no, this is 100% going to take off because look at things I can do. And at first people are like, oh, the digital. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 46:08

And my assistant started getting that I think I don't remember there's a Nikon that they all bought and it it couldn't process information, certainly on black and white, if you like, did check, it went and they all invested loads of money in these cameras and I saw it all going tits up and I thought, no, no, no, no. So I was shooting film and scanning it and at the time I was shooting on an rz and then I thought, no, I want to be nick knight, I'm shooting on 10, 8 or 5 4. I shot everything. One, I found an old 5 4 in a cupboard at seater, the lab where I used to process, and I I said to Tony he said do you want to use it? I went no, mate, you can have it. And it was a Sinar something. Yeah, with a, I can't even remember what the lens was A Bellows 105, yeah.

Speaker 2 46:51

Yeah. So I put a little short Bellows on it and shot a fairly wide lens. I don't even know what it was, no, the digital did because 99, and then when I looked I was shooting loads of lovely high street fashion and shooting really, really good stuff magazines. But then when that happened, I definitely had a round 99. Suddenly went oh who's this guy that does? Oh, he's like this technical wizard, he's amazing, he does all this magical waxy skin. And I got started doing the Sunday Times, started shooting like big celebrities for that, you know, and a big because of this style, because of this waxy style how would you describe your style of work back then I? Mean I imagine it's varied.

Lighting Evolution With Tim Bret Day

Speaker 2 47:41

You're doing campaigns, you're doing editorials, doing all sorts, but I love in your brain and I and I think I probably had a massive influence from people like like George Harrell you know that Hollywood thing I liked a small, like almost a focused light, but obviously with digital you have to fill it out. I think too many photographers now rely on one big optolight at the back of the room. I understand that 100% and there's so much you can do. But in my principle of lighting, nobody write anything down there. But I would start with a beauty dish, yeah, with a grid, so like a very focused, and then just build it up. And I did become synonymous with I ate. Nine packs and heads was just oh wow, standard and I put the grids on. You know. So that build up of light and I loved building up and then it got the bigger the area to light, the more packs and heads it got.

Speaker 1 48:32

So you went from that two extremes of just going, oh no what's these? Two strip lights and now you're mixing eight to ten lights.

Speaker 2 48:38

I look at transparency that I shot now and I'm like there's no retail. It was really good lighting, but then the kind of with the multiple lighting thing became because I liked. You know I think 99 was like Beckham, it was Sunday Times covers the Beckham led to the Bowie with Alan Edwards.

Speaker 1 49:00

I suppose it's not going to be a Tim Brett Day interview if we don't talk about the Bowie thing and how that came out a little bit. I know it's the regurgitated story that probably everyone's heard, but it might be a different audience and go on and talk us a little bit.

Speaker 2 49:11

I know it's the regurgitated story that probably everyone's heard, but it might be a different audience and go on and talk us a little bit about bowie you sat right, I'm going to speed speed this one speed through it was actually, and I and again, because I think I'm a bit on some kind of spectrum I don't remember anything. But then someone pointed out to me during we did that shoot with beckham and it was nuts was like we started the shoot and there was nobody there and then when we finished there was 150 paparazzi outside, a really nice fella, and it got the cover of the Sunday Times. I think Alan Edwards went. Oh, you might get a call tonight off one of my clients if you're interested. Yeah, sure, I'm at home watching EastEnders with my wife in my pants. This is 99, so it's pre-mobile phones and shit and the voice, you know, it rings. We went through the whole. No, no, no, I'm David Barry. No, no, I'm David. And I just was laughing. In the end he kind of went no, it really is. And I want to do this album cover based on the Pieta. I had to know what the Pieta was my wife's on the floor going through some art book, going holding up a picture. I'm going oh, yeah, got you. And, uh, you know, this sheet evolved it. Just it got the album cover evolved.

Speaker 2 50:16

He was on, he was a bit of no man's land, he was a bit of a. Is he dead to the world? Is he not relevant anymore? But I had this. Yeah, no, it's bowie I doing this, and what was lovely was that the man was really nice. He was fascinating. Oh my God, I wish I'd recorded it.

Speaker 2 50:35

Weird enough, the guy I think he's from Scunthorpe rang me and said oh, I've got a film, a behind the scenes film, of you filming Bowie. I was like I don't think so and he sent it down to me and I've got it and I remember the day completely differently. But he was exactly what he. The story here it is come in folks was I got the roster thing and it was black coffee, cigarettes and don't play any of his music. And he comes entourage of one, coco Schwab, who was his personal assistant. Basically, I wanted him to hold someone in his arm, so it was a real, not just photo shot. It was he'd hold someone in the clothes and I'd just do a head swap and tiny crew, super funny guy. He got on great with the set builders, but it was. We did the thing. It was absolutely there. But he walked on set and I'd had a few a-listers that you know it was don't breathe, don't look, don't touch don't smell, don't think.

Speaker 2 51:33

If you're going to point the camera at him, can you warn him that you might be taking a picture? It was all that you know. You had quite a few of them at that time. I decided that why I never really pursued celebrity, to be honest.

Speaker 1 51:44

But he wasn't like that.

Speaker 2 51:50

Were you surprised then when barry came in with the entourage of one? Yeah, I didn't expect that at all. And he, the funniest thing is, he walked on set and he went. It's a bit quiet, we have some music. Quick, assistant, clap, clap, you know, and this is, and he goes. But don't forget please, I don't want any bowie music why do you think he didn't want his own?

Speaker 2 52:04

I have no idea and the assistant puts on the first seat he is available and it's nirvana on Plunk. So the guitar riff comes up and he just looked and I thought, oh, he was human. And I thought, oh, I've blown it. I haven't even taken a picture and I've blown it. And then he just burst into a big smile and he was like that all day. It was more like working with Eric Morecambe than it was a rock star.

Speaker 1 52:27

Really.

Speaker 2 52:31

He had than it was a rock star really. He had a. I think I've got a very similar on the phone calls afterwards that the humor was similar. It was yeah, kind of a bit.

Speaker 1 52:38

I don't know. I don't want to go too much into the celebrities, but is that one of the most surreal ones you've probably done into?

Speaker 2 52:43

grace jones. Grace jones, country mom, and. But with david he went oh, what you want me to do, and I said we're setting on fire on this show. Everything I wanted to do he did. You know the x-ray picture, which is very rare for celebrities he went where did you get these?

Speaker 2 52:59

I went, I nicked them. I broke my wrist when I and just helped himself and walked out. No one questioned me and I made this like light box out of all the reject ones. So they had, like best mom in the world, necklaces on and pacemakers and things like that. And it was just the thing that was interesting with the phone calls, probably more so than anything else because you know the Paxman interview.

Speaker 2 53:23

If you ever see that, that was his conversation. He went, you do realize wwwisgonnachangeyourworld. It's changing everything he said it's going to be about. He used words like content and likes and cross-pollination and mixing with people and I didn't really take it on board. And then Starman's still way ahead of his time. Yeah, I mean the Paxman interview, which was then in 99, he was doing that. He'd obviously come to terms with the digital age and was aware of what the internet would do. He describes it as the best and worst thing that will ever happen With me. It was always that how big is the billboard going to go? Right, I want another £10,000. Where's it going to go? I want another £5,000. And they went and we're going to use it on this thing called the tins net and with a little double tiny, tiny picture. Yeah, that's fine, you can have free.

Speaker 1 54:11

Yeah, don't a year later. It was like worldwide use advice on that yeah, you just signed away all your rights which actually took away a little bit of.

Speaker 2 54:22

You know, there's a big thing about paying more money, more money you're paid for you about they thought you were. And then 2000 was a really weird time for me, kid, I'd. You know lots of things happened at that time. So then, and that's when I got the 5-4 and I went you know I'm doing all this commercial work and all this dorothy perkins machine. I was shooting everything jaeger self, which is everything and I went.

Speaker 1 54:46

I've lost track here I need to so was that more just about the commercial element within those jobs? Are you getting to go right? This is my style.

Speaker 2 54:56

I'm putting on this.

Surrealism and Influence in Fashion Photography

Speaker 1 54:57

No so. And in going back to the Bowery, you said you're imitating the um piatra, yeah was that one of the first times you'd referenced art in your work, or is that an underlying theme?

Speaker 2 55:09

that no no, I mean where do you remember?

Speaker 1 55:11

because I'm trying to get back to those. Yeah, because you've been very humble about oh, I didn't know anything about this, I didn't know anything about that. But obviously your work has now progressed, so you go. Well, hang on a minute. You must have had some of these artists yeah, I'd say 2000 was.

Speaker 2 55:28

I did this exhibition, tallulah Drip for my daughter and basically, and I'm doing a book on it. Now I just want to do a small book and I've got another book. I'm working on the sex book. I'm going to say it because I'm just not editing it. I'm not going to. I've had all the PC things, the sex book in terms, that's what you're going to call it or you're going to like the mizell madonna book. Yeah, no, it won't be like it, but it was.

Speaker 2 55:55

You know, because about that time agent bocateau happened and so waxy skin was great, you were shooting lingerie. But then I kind of thought, um, eric stanton, I always loved the books of eric stanton and I thought I'm gonna do this for agent bocateau, I'm gonna make it sexy, but there's got to be this little bit of humor. There's got to be. Can't take this serious. And it'd be using an attitude so that around that time I was getting a little bit trapped with the photo shot. Everyone's catching up. You know it's like ai now, and I think I was very lucky that around that time I saw this digital catch-up thing happening and thought, you know, I need to tell another story because there's just I saw the saturation and I thought everyone is doing these things.

Speaker 2 56:38

I've got to do something really different. And yeah, tallulah Dreams was a real. I shot 5-4, nick, I shot nearly everything for real. But I thought what I'm going to do is use the digital to just drop one thing in, and that's where surrealism starts out and big influences. That's something I'm going to tell you in Max Ernst's book. But had you been looking at this surrealism? I'd always looked at art, but that was when it. I mean, you've got a picture here, you know, and if you look into it, on the mantelpiece I've got joe cory, who was one of the owners, the man, him and serena, husband and wife, behind age. I always got him in a picture and in that one I turned him into a fan like a the fireplace and there's little guest appearances and little silly, little things all over the place that I could add after but these tableaus is where I see the reference to hieronymus bosch and yeah, I mean mean, you know, that's 2003, something like that.

Speaker 1 58:06

So is this pre-Bowie.

Speaker 2 58:07

That was probably two years after and the first Agent of Rocketeur stuff I did was very retouched, very Eric Stanton.

Speaker 1 58:15

It was like cartoons but was it in this big tableau style, or was there a different idea behind it? No, it was totally different.

Speaker 2 58:22

I mean I did loads of them Absolutely. I mean I did loads for them Absolutely. I mean the very first campaign I did for them was we did four fly posters and, born of a meeting with Joe and Serena, I kind of always had a little bit of a I was I'm not advocating, I wasn't a feminist or anything I said I really don't want to shoot it where it's like look at me like Playboy, like licking my lips and looking at the camera I said it's got to have that. I always say a story about when I worked in the wimpy bar.

Speaker 2 58:52

I had a crush on this girl, massive, massive crush, and she used to come in every day. And I remember one day, susan brown, and I remember coming one day and she asked for a knickerbocker glory and I went I've got this, lads. So I made this knickerbocker glory and took it over to her thing and I just stood there staring at her. I was probably about 17 and she turned around and said what's the matter with you? Do you want to fight with her something? And that whole attitude I walked away like destroyed and that the eyes of laura mars, I think, is even a little bit like that it's I always wanted to photograph women that were a bit unapproachable. Let's be honest.

Speaker 1 59:27

And you wanted that approval.

Speaker 2 59:28

You said earlier that you wanted the models to go.

Speaker 1 59:30

I love shooting this. I love it. Yeah, what's that?

Speaker 2 59:33

God approval. There's a word coming into our union territory.

Speaker 3 59:37

Yeah, but that's where we've sort of got to go a little bit, but I kind of I.

Speaker 2 59:40

I remember going to the shop Agent Votter in Broadwick Street and I always remember Serena had a little. I don't know if it was a ploy or what, but there was a staircase. The girls would walk up the stairs and you could say let's not mince our words, I'll probably get cancelled for it, but it was on their terms. I went, I'm going to get that and I remember the first fly poster we did for them in the, in a series of four with Ingrid Sinegan in this little house.

Speaker 2 1:00:05

The idea is we had four boys and we were going to shoot them in silhouette looking at this girl and she's going to be standing there with a whip and I went let's do it from the other side. So I went behind and shot the back of the girl. So you never saw her face and you just saw the boy's reaction and Joe's in that and Joe's got a big cheeky smile on his face. I think one of the boys would say not interested in girls and he's just looking a bit aloof and embarrassed. And it had a little narrative and that was always everything I did. The girl was just sitting on the back of the boy, riding him around the room.

Speaker 1 1:00:34

It was always about Did you get that freedom with AP? Yeah, Over the other ones where they sort of like oh, tim, the narrative, he's got 19th century relation art.

Speaker 2 1:00:49

Or yeah, joe and serena 100. Joe obviously no. His dad was malcolm mclaren's mom was living westwood and he got this punk ethos. But joe does. Joe thinks out of the box. Joe saw the opposite. I love him, I think I think he's an amazing guy and everything we did it'd always be a little. If you got a little smirk on joe's face, it'd be like, yeah, I've got, so we did those. It'd always be naughty and I'd always kind of like go, I'm sure now I don't know my only would be too much now I don't know.

Speaker 2 1:01:17

I mean, I would say my defense is always. I still talk to all the girls I shot with and I think we had a real laugh. I think the hair and makeup loved it. They were just really naughty and silly. I just think we generally had a laugh and I do remember those shoots being shooting them on five, four in a house, trying not to blow the electrics with seven packs and heads. Yeah, I mean so how?

Speaker 1 1:01:45

okay, so talk to me about the the big. We'll include some of this in the show notes because I'm gonna have my little fanboy moment, because the ap stuff is where I was first introduced to your work. I was seeing it in the magazines, I was seeing it in the storefronts, you know, like you say, it was a revelation I mean, I'd like to think it was, I think up until the end of Tableaus, which was about 2004.

Speaker 2 1:02:07

And Tableaus is probably still, you know, the witches one, especially. That was the first one we did and I said to him let's get away from sci-fi, let's go Hogarth, you know it rakes progress. So the art, you know, reference there. Joe totally got that and I went I think we should go to town and let's do the whole collection. So you'd shoot 25 outfits. And he went well, we've got a budget for about 12 models. I said, yeah, we'll just get some of the other girls and we'll find people.

Speaker 2 1:02:37

And I still think that probably sums me up best, in the sense that everyone else goes oh, my God, ours are retouched. And I work with the same retoucher for years and years lee stewart and lee had always had this thing whatever I said, he would just go yeah, do that amazing and self-taught. But he'd pick up on whatever you showed him. You pick up on it and get the vibe and understand it right, it wouldn't have happened without lee's brilliance. But you have to have the vision and you have to have the thing that makes you want to go. Oh, I've got an idea and it would be with witches. We go to this country house there's 10 girls from ap there, 15 models and I lock the camera off, set one lighting big and I've done it like classic huge softbox, but I've still got all my little.

Speaker 1 1:03:29

Edges and riddles and tingles.

Speaker 2 1:03:30

Yeah, let's pick a little highlight out.

Speaker 1 1:03:32

We're showing that bra, but there is someone there going yeah, because they're by no means flat, these images, yeah, they're beautiful.

Speaker 2 1:03:39

You've got to show the product. On Pirates, there's one where they wanted to show this bum of a pant and there's a keg and I've just got the girl to lean in the climbing the keg with the leg sticking out the end, wiggling about or it'd be like everything had a purpose. And we shot the left-hand side of the picture with the 15 moles shot, an individual shot of each one of them. While they're getting changed, all the people that were there have stuck up in the gantry. So if you look in the gantry, joe's in it all the girls from AP, the snake handler, couple of assistants.

Speaker 2 1:04:16

And anyone that's there anyone, that the van driver, you name it. You were in it. And then they came back in and we shot the right hand side so they do double up and I did a polaroid at the end where I shot the front, all the people lying around the side, sorry. And then, which was the hairdresser? Johnny vegas, some dormant friends of joe's, some punks we met that we just dragged along. They went will there be any drugs and drink? And and I'm like I don't expect so, not from my end You'll get a Streps and a hot coffee from me, but it just come along and everyone's in it. You got dressed up as a hairdresser, dressed up as a monk or I don't know what I did.

Speaker 1 1:04:57

And this is where I'm knowing you referenced Hieronymus Bosch and the Garden of Earthly Delights.

Speaker 2 1:05:01

These tableaus, yeah, I mean that was Harvey Nichols, but this was definitely the raked progress so you'd done a bigger tableau for Harvey Nichols before you did the tableaus oh right, that was 2000, yeah, 2001 were you referencing Hieronymus Bosch and Harvey Nichols?

Speaker 2 1:05:16

yeah, that was what the campaign was. That's where I met David Bray and they basically, on that one, dave had done a drawing and he had these insane drawings. And Dave always says I thought they talked about getting a photographer. No one's going to be able to put that together. And everyone got roped in.

Creative Direction in Fashion Photography

Speaker 2 1:05:33

So I had all these like oompa loompas, as they were, I think, on men's. They taught me not to make it look too gay. So I dressed everyone up in flamenco dancing with big colorful shirts but with bird's heads and cowboy hats, and they up in flamenco dancing with big colorful shirts but with birds heads and cowboy hats, and they were all firing guns that had banged at them. And then on the other side of the picture, the boy with the target pinned to his bum was that your reference? Or the art director? Yeah, I think yeah. And and dave as well. Dave's sense of humor in the drawing right, and it was like there was a girl holding two boys upside down and shaking the money out their pockets, and it was like there was a girl holding two boys upside down and shaking the money out of their pockets, and it was like we can do that. And I nicked everything from the Imperial War Museum, science Museum, horniman Museum, animals.

Speaker 1 1:06:16

Do you remember the first time you saw the Garden of Earthly Delights? Yeah, and I almost want to ask the question why are you so drawn to the hell aspect of the three panels rather than the others?

Speaker 2 1:06:28

We're all going to hell, do you?

Speaker 1 1:06:29

believe that.

Speaker 2 1:06:31

I mean I'd say like with the rake of progress. It's like, if you look at the reality of life, it's a pretty cruel thing. I'm experiencing it at the moment. I've got two or three friends who are ill and you suddenly kind of go, oh, life just goes. Three friends who are ill and you suddenly kind of go, oh, life just goes. It's heaven and hell. I mean, agent, if I could tell you know, let everyone would say, oh, you know, it's all. Every bloke's dream me it's. There's 20 heads and packs going off. Is everything firing? Is everyone in there? Have I shot all the underwear? The right way I've done this.

Speaker 1 1:06:59

People don't realize it and they don't realize. Oh, you're surrounded by underwear models yeah, that's great. The last thing I was looking at was tits.

Speaker 2 1:07:04

I was looking at the light I'd be, I'd be mortified, absolutely mortified. If anyone ever thought I fancied anyone, it was never, I never. Um, I don't think I ever had anyone say I'm not doing that. Or if they had, I would have just changed the idea and I did. You used to, I used to draw those. The tableaus I drew. I looked at you know, rate progress, and I looked at all the prostitutes and the thieves and the rogues and it's a thing that's now back in with talula dreams. You know, when I did that story they were all grim as fairy tale, because if you did trace it back, god, if you go all the way back, I'm five years old watching the singing reunion tree, which is an eastern european puppet program that I watched with my mother and my mom when I was five or six, and so it was very dark and it was really dark. And it then transposed those things with the Tallulah Dreams thing.

Speaker 2 1:07:56

One story's about a man. He has this beautiful girl all dressed in Westwood and he won't let her leave the house and she cries and cries and then the floor fills up with her tears and then it fills up with all these koi carps so she can't escape and then it freezes over because his heart's so cold. I would come home from trips and Lula would say oh, don't tell me Little Red Riding Hood, tell me something else. So they would always be about a naughty girl called Tallulah and that book I'm just doing that at the moment and I've written it down. I knew the stories, I could tell them from my head and for about a year and a half everything was geared towards that exhibition. Any editorial, I'd go. What about if the girl's dancing around in a room full of tigers? And it'd be like I got away with doing it.

Speaker 1 1:08:43

So how many?

Speaker 2 1:08:43

images were there within that series. There, I got away with doing it. So how many images were there within that series? There's more than I thought. I think there's about 25. Oh, wow, yeah, there's. I want to say six stories. Yeah, I think 90% of it is shot with Charlie Davis, who was there at the Sunday Telegraph. It was then, and Charlie just never. Sometimes she'd go can you do it without the zebras? And I'd go two zebras, she'd go one zebra, I'd go four, she'd go three, I'd go five.

Speaker 2 1:09:09

She'd go four, and that'd be it, and negotiations went on and someone trusted me and God knows what people thought and there was a lot of afterthought stuff. With Lee the pan one, I've got my son stuck in the chandelier as a cherub. That's added afterwards.

Speaker 1 1:09:26

Is that?

Speaker 2 1:09:26

Troy yeah, that's my son. Yeah, and as a baby. How old is he now? He's 20, nearly 21 now Really.

Speaker 2 1:09:35

Yeah, that's him. But everybody is in Harvey Nichols, if you look in at Harvey, troy's a spaceman in that one. Tallulah's a little fairy dancing on, riding on the back of a leopard. And then there's one which is I dressed up, all up. My wife sent a first world war nurse, I don't know. They're all mad things. I used to nick out of where was it? The science museum mostly, was running and I'd nick a Montgolfier balloon and put people in balloon, dave's herman gering flying a meshesmith 109 and I just, and lee would let me and lee would just sit there and were you seeking out references, though, or were they just sort of just?

Speaker 2 1:10:15

I don't know I think it comes from airfix models, the bino, the influences are many. I think it kind of definitely fashion came from. You know, if you had to pin it down, keep it all down. And actually my dad was French and he would only buy Paris Vaux. So I was looking at Mike Reinhardt shooting Janis Dickinson really young, and then Newton and Bourdain and I had this real. The one big regret I always had that was I would love to have shot for Paris Vogue and I went to see them and I went in 99 and the guy sat with a pipe, got a thing about pipes and went oh, this is digital will never happen, ever, ever. And four months later, the digital issue of Paris Vogue. And I was like I would definitely say I might have been too ahead of the thing.

Speaker 1 1:11:08

Did you ever shoot for Italian Vogue? No, I would have said Italian, vogue of French was probably even more yeah no, it was always about Paris Vogue.

Speaker 2 1:11:16

I would buy Paris Vogue religiously. I would buy Italian Vogue to look at Maisel, to look at Paolo Versi, you know. But then you had your own influences. I mean people I loved. I loved dave sims, that's. I mean there's just there's too many to list, but I'd like what they were doing at them.

Speaker 1 1:11:33

So if he said jack of all trades and that kind of thing, it sort of is, but I get bored really quickly and I'm going to interrupt you, but I learned not long ago jack of all trades always used derogatory but the actual full phrase is jack of all trades, master of none, oftentimes better than the master of one. I've never heard that, Exactly because we've always been brought up to realize that jack of all trades.

Speaker 1 1:11:57

So the Rankings, the Baileys, the Albert Watson who've done fashion, still lives landscapes. You've got to get all your inputs that still lives landscapes, you've got to get all your inputs.

Speaker 2 1:12:05

That's really it. Yeah, because I do see it. As you know, things change, like I say that Tallulah Dreams thing, the 5-4, and I shot loads of stuff and one of the shoots was a sunny towns one I did with Lee McQueen. I'd seen two trees and there was blackbirds in one and parakeets in another and they were at war. I just sat and watched it and I thought, oh, that'd be a great idea for a story. In the McQueen everything was black. I thought we'll have one white dress in the middle and I did a big tableau for that.

Speaker 1 1:12:35

What was it like working with him? I did meet him. You never met him.

Speaker 2 1:12:39

I met him once but I can't say I worked with him. I never really. You know, when I was saying that thing with the Bowie thing, I don't remember talking to him at all. And in the old behind the scenes film I'm sure I'm telling you where the toilets are or you know, I mean, but talking about Liverpool football definitely not. But I don't remember this dialogue because I'm lost in that and I always think it was like I say, quite often I'd be thinking, oh my god, are we going to blow all the power? And because I was shooting, on 5.4.

Speaker 1 1:13:10

When it's your job, you're focused on all the things your mind's all over.

Speaker 2 1:13:14

I'm not even. I don't think anyone's got any right for any outer influences when you're in it. And, like I say with the tableaus, I always drew them, so I didn't want the models to go. What do I do? I go you've got a sword, you're up a chandelier, you're fighting him, the dwarf's hitting you over the head with a drumstick, da-da-da-da.

Speaker 1 1:13:32

And everyone knew exactly what they were going to do. The piece just as a nun, yeah it was.

Speaker 2 1:13:37

If you lack direction and I definitely learned that from Neil happy to do it it can be no room for doubt, and I think that's what makes there's spontaneity?

Speaker 1 1:13:48

of course there is. You know it's um, but when you're working on big tableaus like that, there's so much to get right. Yeah, there's so much intricacy and then did it become the niche because suddenly there was lots of big tableaus with lots of people for lots of campaigns. Yeah, so did you become the kind of go-to guy? Go right, we want 50, want 50 models in this. You better get Tim, I think I'd probably push it that way.

Speaker 2 1:14:07

I think definitely, and I love my system, I love working with Lee and, like I say, we were a double act. The surreal aspect to it definitely drew people towards you. I've always been interested in that. I mean, I think lockdown was definitely a massive change. It had been coming and I'd noticed that it was a financial decision. You know, be prepared to pay a fortune for a photographer, but can you keep your lights and build down? And there were all these weird things. I'd sit there going.

Speaker 2 1:14:36

I don't really understand, and I think, once, one of the key things that it values you is are you work on the principle? I want to work, so someone go well, we can't afford ten thousand pounds a day. Would you do it for six? And I go, yeah, my lighting bill's five and a half. And they go that's fine, and no one put two and two together. But and it's a big but I think you devalue. I think you either stuck out it's like with art. Now I can sell that print over there for six thousand pounds, whatever it is, I don't know what it costs to buy and there'll be a another version, a smaller version on a cheaper paper that people can buy. And now people go okay, I have the cheap one, can you make it a little, just a little bit bigger? And you're kind of like I admire the artists that go no, I've made six images, that's all there is End of. And I wish I'd done it like that because I got into the art thing during lockdown all by accident.

Speaker 2 1:15:33

So I'm sitting in my man cave thinking, right, I've got no work, I can't do shoots anymore. I did my mom's house up, which was talk about quirk of fate house up, which was talk about quirk of fate, and in the shed at the end of garden found two big actual boxes with all the old necks in an envelope with all the bowie original transparencies in, because, bowie, you did the shoot for him, so he had everything else. So I think it's outside all days. I had everything, but they'd left me the transparencies to do the retouch with. I rang them up.

Speaker 2 1:16:04

I said look, I'm not going to do anything untoward with this. If I could do some prints, you know, for a show or an exhibition, they were absolutely, and that was in my original deal, I think. And they said, yeah, go ahead. And, weird enough, parasite Gallery said oh, we'd love to have two of your Bowie pictures in the show. This is just before lockdown. I did two big prints. Lockdown happened, the gallery shut down and I went on. Facebook went. Any big Bowie fans? Here's two prints, originals. If anyone wants them, they can have them priced to print.

Speaker 1 1:16:36

Still very blasé. I'm not an artist.

Speaker 2 1:16:39

But I just didn't want things plugging up my house and the phone rang for four days and I suddenly went oh, there's a following here, and not because it was a money opportunity. All the fans he has oh my God, arden isn't the word, I mean kind of a bit on the edge of obsessional, yeah, and I suddenly thought, okay, there's, and I turned down. There was this big thing in liverpool that I I just didn't have the bottle to do a talk and so I I opted out why?

Speaker 1 1:17:13

why didn't I?

Speaker 2 1:17:13

just, I just didn't think I had. I never liked that thing. You know, like, yeah, what would they like to work with them? I didn't really talk to them. The truth is, it's like with models. You know, I've shot some pretty famous models, but their conversations didn't go much further. Oh, my god, you look amazing. Yeah, that'd be great. Could you just do that? Yeah, that'd be nice. All right, break next. Yeah, and oh, that was great working with you. Yeah, I love you. No, I love you more.

Speaker 2 1:17:35

No, you can't love me on a plane gone and I think it's a sad side of it because I think I've made some great friends, you know, and and that was one thing that really changed after lockdown the humor went seriously work with some funny people and we we would sit there going. We're on a yacht in the middle of the caribbean and we've got to shoot six pictures in a week so hard, yeah, you know, and pinching ourselves, thinking, and you know, a lot of hair and makeup people come from pretty modest backgrounds, it's not? They usually have to graph really hard to get there. It's.

Reflections on Creative Photography Career

Speaker 2 1:18:10

There's not many baronets and no marquises doing hair and makeup and they're great people, most of the ones that survived to do well, launch products, they apply themselves and they work with loads of people good, difficult, but they have briefs and especially now I would have a brief what to do with hair and makeup. But I'd always trust them unless they went right off the beam and did a pompadour wig. When I was sort of shooting the 60s story, I'd be like I'd just go with flow and go, yeah, create their creativity. Unfortunately, now this mood boards into oblivion. Everything is mood boarded and you will have clients going. I think it'd be great, but with curl and a wave, but no movement, but static in a bob yeah, okay, which and the poor hairdressers sit in the middle going is that just an art director trying to be useful when?

Speaker 2 1:19:02

actually you said trying to you know a horse designed by a committee.

Speaker 1 1:19:05

It's a camel.

Speaker 2 1:19:06

I think everyone's trying and I, I would say the big change. Some people would just go, we'd have six outfits ago. Oh, let's shoot that one, that's great, we shoot it and go. Should we do that one as well? All right, do another one. And as time has gone, now it's like we'll shoot all six. And can we swap a bag and a shoe in each one? Because they have to go back and appease so many people before. It'd be an editor, your fashion editor, the old school vote thing, yeah, going back and showing anna winter and anna winter going, but they don't advertise or they're not a big enough. Client dropped, yeah, but you understood it, because without them you don't make the pictures, you don't get the stories, you don't get the madness. So you have to be smart. But I find the whole thing where it's yeah, but our, the buyers and this person and our editor, and this is commercial and this is going to make us money. This is if you're working on principle. It don't work for me and we've also.

Speaker 1 1:20:03

We've spoke about this't it? It's gone from the days where you produce, like you say, the six shots in six days. It's now. You've got to get content, you've got to get behind the scenes, you've got to get a crop for Instagram, you've got a crop for TikTok and you're like well this is just diluting all of the creative elements to those.

Speaker 2 1:20:24

I mean, I think there's still, oh God, you know, like funny enough, I was thinking so you said you know that surreal aspect I missed a really important person. You know I've moved away from music and album covers were probably the first thing that made me go. Why does Roger Dean do Tales of Topographic Ocean? Why did Bowie shoot the grainy Ziggy Stardust cover? What are those albums?

Speaker 1 1:20:49

that stand out to you.

Speaker 2 1:20:51

You've got a favourite as a musician you must have loads of favourites, but 100% it was Walk Away Renee by Storm Thorgerson, who had a company called Hypnosis, and that's where I looked at pictures and went. What is that about? Why is that object in there? And that surrealism started and that obtuse thing and searching for meaning within pictures.

Speaker 2 1:21:12

He was huge. I found that book about five years ago and my mum was from us. It tied in up and honestly, not many books make me cry and that made me cry. I was just looking at it going that guy's imagination. And peculiar that Pink Floyd cover with the guys on fire, but it was more the early stuff, like the Straubs, and he did a cover for 10cc with how Dare you and it was someone having a dirty phone call on the cover. But split in two and amazing ideas, Amazing ideas. And I think you look back now and you go look at houses of the holy and go that's actually really weird.

Speaker 1 1:21:53

You know, it's loads of kids. That's where you got those references for the concepts of narratives within I love, and of course newton bordan. There's all those little surreal underlying narratives.

Speaker 2 1:22:02

I mean I bought the new. My daughter bought me the new bordam picture for Christmas. You know it's the postcard. It's the picture held in a picture of the Polaroids and the walking the Charles Roussin.

Speaker 1 1:22:14

So many iconic images that have been ripped off. That's the amazing thing, isn't it?

Speaker 2 1:22:18

When you know those references, you can see for the last four years they've been ripped off knowing Knowing I mean Newton, I think can see for the last 40 years they've ripped off knowing knowing I mean newton. I think it's ripped off more than and I think weirdest thing is when, like I said, with bailey, you get in how much newton got stereotyped with this, oh sexist, this abuse of women and I don't miss anything.

Speaker 2 1:22:38

Read the book, and there's nothing about adoration toward women and it comes from your mother because at the end of day, going on the freudian tip, I think if you photograph women, you there's somewhere along the line. There's got to be a maternal instinct. There's got to be. You know. You asked about the tin. You know the story behind the tin is. I'll keep it brief, but I would go and visit my mom in you know later life and just before lockdown and things, and every time I go she'd have this old tea tin with pictures and she'd go oh, do you want to see your granddad in the First World War? And this is your Uncle Chas and this is your Auntie, whatever, eileen, and all this thing. And I picked up this pictorial history of what my family was, my mum's pictures.

Speaker 2 1:23:22

If I look at the identity they have, I've got a very mixed background. My mom was from Burma, I'd say very, very working class family. His dad was a chancer. He came from Australia. I don't know his story, but whatever he did, he was very brave and very smart. He started the dental. He would go onto battlefields and recover troops and say if you got blown up, they'd saw your leg off. What do you do when half your face is missing? You've got nerve endings in your teeth. He would actually do it in the field. So he developed this thing. He became an amazing story. There was King Frug's dentist meets my grandmother. They have everything.

Speaker 2 1:24:00

Then, with all the uprisings in Cairo in 1936, they had to flee and they go to France. They lost everything in France in the Second World War by the Germans. His parents end up living in Catford with my mom's family, which was a family of 11, I think. But then life had just changed. There was this story and yet that is your primary story. That was my mum's story. You know there's a very old picture of her at dockhead in dermansley school and there's these pictures of growing up as a kid and I'm like, actually the only real relevant story you have at the end is the one that you pass on to your kids or you they show at your funeral. It's kind of weird. And she had this tin and I think why I always called it the magic tin. No matter how many times I looked at it, there'd always be another picture coming. You have these.

Speaker 1 1:24:49

That's the story, I think, and if you Is that why you think that the tin is the answer? When I asked you about your magic tin.

Speaker 2 1:24:55

It's more the answer. I mean I'm what's going to be in my tin. That's exactly my next question what?

Speaker 1 1:25:01

are the photographs from a well, let's be honest a 40-year career where you've shot pretty much everyone's bicycles. Yes, jagger, bowie, grace Jones, you've done campaigns galore, but when I spoke to you the other day, you were like, oh fuck, all those, what are the images? You really it's not, it's not. I mean they're highlights.

Speaker 2 1:25:21

Don't get me wrong, you it, but it's. But what's in tim's magic tin?

Speaker 2 1:25:27

to lula dreams now that I've done it and now my daughter's grown up so it was like three or four when I did that took the pictures and now but you know, hopefully, um get it all together. I've written it, which is comedy art there. Somewhere in there there's something intelligent with me and I have got a perverse sense of humor which I don't always think people get. I would definitely the book I did with dave terrible twins available. All good books, not really.

Speaker 1 1:25:53

It's just we'll put links to everything. We'll put links to that was really good.

Speaker 2 1:25:58

That happened last year and, weird enough, I was doing photo london with jewel and derrick one of the other photographers had a book said you don't have a book like, I'll do a book. And effectively I did that book in a week with lee and I. It was lovely. I reconnected with lee. I had a rough idea what I was going to do and it, but it worked exactly how I wanted. I would ring dave and go well, I've got a space here, can you do us a drawing? And we threw that book together and that's's the weird thing. Everyone thinks it was, but it wasn't. I knew it was going to be Gold Leaf. I knew it was going to be Heartbound. I knew it was going to be the Terrible.

Speaker 1 1:26:32

Twins Before you'd even.

Speaker 2 1:26:33

I knew and I had all the inside stories. The Terrible Twins are two kids I met in South Africa and everyone, oh, don't go to that area, it's really rough. And of course I did. I spent the whole day walking around with a pentax 67 taking these pictures and there was this big painting on the wall. They were the terrible twins shall without you, shall die if you. I can't what. It was written on a painted on the wall.

Speaker 2 1:26:53

I took the picture and someone said do you want to meet the terrible twins? Yeah, and so I met the terrible twins, took a picture, and then we I thought I don't want to use it, I don't want anyone knowing it to be that obvious. And I used two kids that used to live next door to us and we played Knock Down Ginger all the time and I'd taken a picture of them and went into the archive and I suddenly went this is like the tin. I suddenly connected little things and went. I'm going to just trust in how those things connect. Dave's drawings in my work shouldn't really connect. They do.

Speaker 1 1:27:23

Is that the closest thing you think you've done so far in terms of your magic in the book?

Speaker 2 1:27:28

yeah, I don't. I think I tried not to use agent factor. There's one agent factor picture in it, there's one bowie picture and there's one grace jones in it. After that it's all the little stories over the journey. You had that. Weird enough, you know, and the weird thing is how they connect. A guy bought a big print recently. A copy of that one was hand for his wife and we went to his house amazing house and we're chatting.

Speaker 2 1:27:52

There's a picture of this boy on a beach in marrakech and the long story short was on when I was shooting. I'm shooting, I'm doing a limburg riff off with a black velvet on on the beach. You know the model jumping around the background. There's about 100 people watching and me and robber in between shots of playing football and kicking the ball around. He's in the chelsea shorts and then I took a portrait of him and then he came out. I remember he came out to do this shoot, this outfit with these really short shorts. All the men went mental for him because it was in marrakesh.

Speaker 2 1:28:25

It's a bit different like that and rob's going bloody hell. What's going on? I mean I just I'd get in the van as soon as we start shooting and I took this picture and I chucked the roll of 120 in the bag and forgot about it and this picture came back. I did this print. I thought I really like that picture and I rang his agent and said oh, I've got a picture of rob english. It's really nice. I don't think he wants it, should you know? Rob passed away two weeks ago.

Speaker 2 1:28:50

I think he had a brain memory and I felt I was really gutted and I thought I know that picture, I know the story behind that picture. If you look at it you'll go. There's something in it. It's a bit haunted. Is that just a picture of a really lovely, beautiful young man, you know? And this guy turns out. When I worked on a building site in caledonian road, he said oh, how did you start this? Oh, my first job was and I said, to go play school the cali captain. He went, my dad's owner and that was I don't know what year, that was 1970 something and rob was his first business partner. And we suddenly had this little connection. And that's what I think is magic tins are about. They're family connections. You suddenly, you know, you look at a picture there's just. I love those little. You know, the tableaus of the forage of Boccataro, or I love leaving traces, you know where's Wally, type things.

Speaker 1 1:29:43

What's your favorite one within the Agile Provocateurs or the tableaus that you've done, which is a little bit of a?

Speaker 2 1:29:47

like you say where's.

Speaker 1 1:29:48

WALL-E or spot this.

Speaker 2 1:29:51

Oh, good question. I've only just printed that the pan one up, which was the spring, I think spring summer, and I started noticing little things that I've put in there. They've all got Pirates is good because it's got it's got a level of celebrity in it and it's got mick jones from the class in it and because he turned up when we were filming and I stuck a bonaparte's hat on him. He didn't like it but I just thought, no, you're getting in you've got to get those opportunities.

Collecting Memories

Speaker 2 1:30:18

Yeah and I think I shot two frames before he took it off, but I kept the one with that on. There's lots in there and there'll be like mice or there'll be little things that if you look in talula dreams. I noticed the other day and I it was actually one of the bikers who worked at sita clive's got a bit of a eerie face if you look in the mirror on the picture he's looking in at the little girl on the bed and so there's little things that I did at the time. I just forgot, and then so there is.

Speaker 1 1:30:44

So they're even like those. Where's wally moments to you as well? Yeah, oh man, I can't remember.

Speaker 2 1:30:48

Well, mouse sniffing on that yeah, I mean I the the talulah dreams has been mad because just I've actually just found a load of images that didn't make the final edit for the show and I was thinking, and with me I discard it. It's like with the bowie things. I in a shoebox.

Speaker 2 1:31:03

In a shoebox, yeah in said I never kept it and when I moved out of the studio I had about 10 000 cds, maybe more, and everything was on the cd. I haven't backed anything up and I had to move from the studio to a storage lockup and I had them all on a trolley and I went over a bump and the whole bloody lot fell out. So everything's falling out. The cases.

Speaker 2 1:31:24

The case had the number on, so nothing matches nothing matches I hadn't written anything sensible on it, like the sunday times, I mean, it was just a blank cd and mark. That was what mark did during lockdown. He put the whole lot. He sat in my man cave for months just putting it all back together, putting it all onto drives and going to. You need, you need to.

Speaker 1 1:31:45

It's still we were looking to have the archive of your work must feel quite special, yeah, still.

Speaker 2 1:31:50

We were looking for a picture where I in Tilly Dreams a story about this character who collects girls and then pins them into a book. But they're still alive, but he pins them by their hair and their shoes, or what Right? Okay, and we saw these giant props and it's a really great story. I can't find it somewhere, in somewhere, land, it's there we'll find it, you'll come across it.

Speaker 1 1:32:11

I'll come across it because I need to find it.

Speaker 2 1:32:13

So I will find it. But yeah, and you know, I've always said I struggle with photography as an artist. You know I'm not an artist and when I came here, I came here to the gallery by mistake and a jewel happened to be a Bowie fan and said, well, I'll put your show in the show that you went to in Battersea. Yeah, and that's how that evolved. I've never had this thing.

Speaker 1 1:32:35

Oh, you never sort of sought out to go right. Oh, I need an avenue?

Speaker 2 1:32:38

Oh wow, Not at all.

Speaker 1 1:32:39

I was about to say now you're selling artwork, as it were.

Speaker 2 1:32:42

Yeah, Well, it will be that. But I think the books I'm doing the book at the moment. I've curated one and Tillu dreamed of having to write it all and think up all the ideas and make all the connections and pictures. So it all makes sense. I love that process. But do books make money? No, you know. But are they your magic tin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, they will be. And you know, I'd say, if we're sort of done the full circle, really, one of the last things that I did, which was a very strange chance meeting, I did a Prince's Trusting and I met Jodie Hirsch. Jodie's a DJ but he does it in drag. Just the nicest guy, and I thought, oh, here's an, an opportunity. He was doing club nights, he was doing circus at the time and I said I wish you a picture and hardly anyone has seen any of these. I did circus. There's 100 people in circus which are on your website yeah sort of again big.

Speaker 2 1:33:47

Yeah, you have to see them for real. I've only printed one up ever. I did it in big chunks, I think four big chunks, and people would turn up and they'd be like, oh, it's Sadie Frost or that's.

Model Connections and Maternal Influence

Speaker 2 1:33:59

You know, there'll be, there's all these people in it and they're all friends of Jay's and he had an incredible crowd of people like Monroe Bergdorf, there's Daniel Lismore, there's all these people and I connected that my early days with the Bowie thing and these people and I connected that my early days with the bowie thing. I remember having a bowie haircut, getting chased around slough market. I always had that little thing where I was never considered myself a cool and and as mysterious as that, but I loved looking at what they did and anything I could do to promote that. Actually, I probably would have a lean mcqueen's person. I probably he probably would have hated me.

Speaker 1 1:34:35

I would have thought I don't know, I don't know, thinking of the, his work, your work, his world would have made me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 1:34:42

Fame has always made me uncomfortable and you know people always go oh yeah, but you're great mates with Kate Moss, it's not? You know, they don't know me from Adam. It's like yeah, I, you know, they don't know me from Adam. Yeah, I've met them. That's not my world. What are your feelings about?

Speaker 1 1:34:54

Kate, because obviously Bailey and people have said that Kate and Gene Strimson are the best models ever in the world. Is she different to every other model?

Speaker 2 1:35:02

Just to survive, and for the fact that they're you know, I'm a massive Mert Marcus fan. I mean everyone she's worked with you've got your best picture out of. And I think, marcus, I think there's numerous photographers I can say you know, your big picture was that. So she makes things happen, she's a catalyst. I think all those Erin O'Connors, I think all the you know the supermodels and Karen Elson. I remember Karen Elson. She was going to the opening of she was kind of like Jack White, I think, and they were going to the opening of the Bond film. I mean, you know, you've got Karen Elson for six hours and they had 18 outfits to shoot. It's like ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. And then there were rules. She doesn't want to be photographed like this and like that and she wants to be the star of the show. And in the tableau there's one with the sirens. She looked incredible. We didn't talk really or anything like that.

Speaker 1 1:35:57

Did you want to shoot her? Try and get some of the Guy Bourdain stuff, Because obviously Karen. Elson is prime Guy Bourdain-esque.

Speaker 2 1:36:05

Yeah, I mean I would love to, I would still say there's nothing to me. As good as I like a model, I can guarantee that nine times a 10. I've never really discussed. I did know with Kate yeah, I think I think Kate's in the book and it was one of her very, very first tests for a hair product thing and I did know and they'd always say, oh, you're shooting Claudia Schipper for a cover, got any other girls you'd like to shoot and I'd shoot Kate and it never came off because it wasn't the name. And girls you'd like to shoot and I'd shoot kate and it never came off because because it wasn't the name and she hadn't been discovered yet. You just knew and every photographer in where they saw has got picture. Loads of people have, but you just knew and I loved it when you photographed someone and they weren't discovered though, uh, I can think of loads that I've gone. Yeah, you're amazing, yeah yeah, no one else.

Speaker 1 1:36:52

And then they I've gone. You're amazing. Yeah, it's the classic as it is.

Speaker 3 1:36:54

Yeah, no one else gets you, and then they hit the mainstream and you're like oh, they cannot make it.

Speaker 2 1:36:58

That's the weirdest thing you know. There was an Australian girl that I shot loads for Lola and Lola came on a casting at the studio and I just remember going. I think she's amazing and I don't know why.

Speaker 1 1:37:09

What was it about her that stood out to?

Speaker 2 1:37:10

you that whole ambiguous rocks, your music Bowie thing.

Speaker 1 1:37:15

She's kind of a big tall girl Could have worn a suit, worn a tough looking face.

Speaker 2 1:37:18

Real sweet girl, really nice girl, and I remember all the stories I shot. The pictures I did with her were always tough and I kept thinking why don't people pick up on her? And you've got to fit the current trend. You know she wasn't the trend at the time. If she'd been around in newton would have shut into oblivion, right. She was that androgynous, unapproachable, looked like a bitch was actually a total sweetheart.

Speaker 2 1:37:44

You know really a girl called tia eckhardt, I think. I think t is amazing, terrified, the crap out of me. No one's ever intimidated me like that as a model, but when you looked at the, images, were you like?

Speaker 2 1:37:56

that's why absolutely we shot her for agent, I think, for they were serene for agent, fucked her and it was a magazine that we did and it was, oh my god, I, I was just like this is my ultimate. This girl is just amazing, got red hair, like so you know, but her attitude, I mean, wow says it how it is. Totally you know. Yeah, probably what our boys like, yeah, you know, what do you want to focus?

Speaker 2 1:38:21

I mean it was actually was the queen of that. She was the queen of. Susan brown had been a real name, but I loved how she was in pictures. Absolutely don't with me. I was in awe it was, he was great, and I was really sad because they used her on a campaign. I think with katherine bailey I've gone and shot it and I was a bit like, oh, why didn't I shoot her? That should have been me, you know, yeah, and I just mistimed it I was coming to.

Speaker 2 1:38:49

The asian procter thing was one of the thing where it was getting a little bit designed by a committee and it probably was a bit of a diva really. I mean, joe had sold it and it just suddenly didn't have the same. I always loved it with Joe and Serena and Jess and all the people who worked for it. I mean, you know the witches. You walk in, put a print up on the wall and you go Tim, there's a bride getting her throat cut. It's like yes, everyone's like going, oh no, and joe walks and he goes. Really good, if we had a pentagram on the floor just so that everyone knows it's a coven, and I went away and painted one on the floor of my studio or my office actually at the time, which was a tiny office in, uh, great corn street, and photographs and that's compton, little bits of compton like wolves and owls I know you said you've got these dark tendencies from the fact that life's quite dark, but is there something more to it?

Speaker 1 1:39:40

and also you said anyone that shoots models? There's obviously something, there's that maternal element. Is that your mom? Is that your sisters? No, mom, I'm just saying just mom I mean, I think you know sorry just because that resonated with me, because I was my mum's single mum, sister and grandma, yeah, and I grew up with covers and covers of Vogue all around me, so it was a no-brainer in hindsight why I went down that route. I could very comfortable talking to women, it's not that? Yeah, where is that connection?

Speaker 2 1:40:09

for you. Do you know? I remember watching that, uh, woody harrelson film and I always say, you know, when no one says they've lost their mum, and I always, you know that connectivity, and he says and he's woody harrelson's characters. You know?

Speaker 1 1:40:22

alpha male what film is that sorry?

Speaker 2 1:40:24

and it's three billboards, oh yeah and he said I always thought I came in and I I definitely got that from my dad was that I'm a man, I come into the world alone, I go out alone. That's how it is, that's the way it's going to be. And he said I thought that, and then I realized that you come in with your mother. Everyone comes in with their mother, whether you love them or whether you hate them, but that's the connection, the umbilical cord connection.

Speaker 1 1:40:48

This is personal, but you said whether you love him or hate him. How was your relationship with?

Speaker 2 1:40:52

your mum. Oh good, yeah, I mean I've got. No, there wasn't any darkness that suddenly manifests all teams.

The Future of Photography and Artistry

Speaker 2 1:40:58

No, no, no, I'd say I couldn't care less. Funny enough, I'd say dad was 100% a loner. You know, he's old school, very, walter Mitty very, and probably, like I said, the French Vogue thing connection came with dad very and probably, like I said, the french folk thing connection came with dad. He loved women, you know, but he, it's that thing, you understand love. He loved my mom, he liked women, let's just put it like that, okay and um, but he loved my mom and they had this sort of peculiar relationship in many respects. But the the bottom line of it is the connectivity. You know, it's like I think if you break down without going off on too much of a tangent, you can edit this out. But you can break down in a relationship and it can all go wrong, and then you'll find that there's something that connects you and it'll use you as your kids.

Speaker 2 1:41:46

I think my dad was actually realizing what love was very late in life and then, sadly, I think, he died at 73. And I think he just realized it isn't about work. He'd always, you know, like we all, photographers are the worst. It's all about status. You know, it's like. You know, when people say to me you're still shooting loads of big worldwide campaigns and I go. Why did you have to ask me that?

Speaker 2 1:42:07

why it kills me and I got, I got offered something really nice yesterday out of the blue and my reaction was I'm not sure I want to be filming things and being because I I had things after lockdown. That lockdown really changed everything. I did a really big job, huge tableau, and it got canned by for a simple idea that someone had had on the day and I remember thinking we really bust the gut to do something amazing and no one cares. And a little bit of being on shoots and I did this big L'Oreal thing with influencers and I've got a proper epic shoot. Even the filming was like early days of drones and we had a big Alice in Wonderland scenario. Everything was lit, every set's lit. I've got five assistants and we went out and the influence just pictures themselves on the phone and occasionally do one with somebody else and I suddenly realized they're not interested in taking any pictures no it was me putting on a show and it was a show.

Speaker 2 1:43:07

it looked amazing and it was all I remember. We had these big jeff coons toadstools built. And then this remember this influencer coming out and going oh my God, mushrooms, I hate mushrooms, I don't eat meat and mushrooms. And someone just oh, icky, I don't like mushrooms either. And these six foot high plastic Jeff Koons toadstool straight out the window in the skip.

Speaker 1 1:43:29

And I was just like no one really got what I was doing. But that's what we spoke about, isn't it? It's like I've spoken to you before about I got into assisting in advertising from the Guinness adverts and those incredible shots, and now it's content Instagram. Churn this out, churn that out, crops for this, crops for that. Whereas, like you said, someone comes to make a beautiful tableau and some influencer says I don't like a bloody mushroom. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:43:52

I think, if you know, the natural conclusion to this now is our AI, which we've briefly discussed and, like with digital, I should have been scared witnessed some digital and gone. I don't know how to turn a computer on. I send an email and I kind of expect a ripple of applause. I'm not kidding you. Yeah, but AI, but with anything, it's a process of thought and, like I say, I think AI, what will happen when we have photographers? We'll have curators, the people that can curate and have a knowledge of the history of photography that we've been through, like you and I. Probably someone will show me a picture. I go oh, my God, that's you know.

Speaker 1 1:44:30

That's Bourdain and it's Weber and it's Avedon that's Charles Jourdan and it's 1981. It's painting yeah, exactly, I can see everything. Exactly like you say. Oh, shoot it in the Marcellier way, with a beautiful daylight and shot through the layers and yeah it's like you say, it will be curation. It will be curation.

Speaker 2 1:44:48

And then the joyful thing is, you know, and I think Nick Knight has not been like I wouldn't say he'd been a guiding light, not because I think he's a genius, I think he's brilliant, I think his story that he tells is fascinating, and I went to a show that Nick did recently and I saw an artist called Von Wolf and it was AI. They look like light boxes, hyper real, and now they move like a bird's wings or flutter. I was blown away. I came out of that show completely blown away, because I his appreciation of classic photography. There was a. There was as much surreal, crazy shit going on in the 1920s as there is now. Everyone thinks all the my.

Speaker 2 1:45:34

AI. Things on my Instagram are just like all these Gothic, you know.

Speaker 2 1:45:38

I'm like yeah, I've seen all this. This has all been done. This is it's just, it moves and it moves in a different way and it's a volume and it's like this isn't someone's work for eight months. This is someone did it overnight on mid journey.

Speaker 2 1:45:50

But the curators you know, I said, like simon foxton, there's just so many a young, a model I work with terry gates. We said the other day, you know, the initial stuff was all mixing that transform was bumblebee with a sexy, with karen elson and making this android thing. And I'm going, wow, and within two seconds, that was like dated. And then he's getting it to move, then they're getting to do things and and then, and now's like, then he got ripped off by somebody else and I saw someone else copying his idea. And there's no ownership, there's no, everyone's just like. I can steal whatever I want because the internet is mine, because it's worldwide. No one's going to catch me. And you got found out back in the day If I did a.

Speaker 2 1:46:28

I put a black canvas up on a beach, everyone canvas up on the on a beach. Everyone went and shot him black and white. Yeah, excuse me, you didn't get away, you know. But getting back to nick, what I loved was he did a 12 days of christmas thing and he basically puts a model in front of painters, illustrators, filmmakers, and the lighting is minimal. He shoots it all on his phone. It's ultimate content creation and I, as Bowie said, it's a good thing, it's a bad thing. I still like the Yoji campaign. I know it's his Bowie, whatever. I still look at those. The painting. The thing you do with Simon Fox is black models all throwing paint over red paint over each other the war one and yeah, soulbase.

Speaker 2 1:47:13

Picture with yellow dresses the forelli calendar.

Speaker 1 1:47:16

Women's fantasies yeah, surreal digital, that was still I want to see that one image.

Speaker 2 1:47:21

I don't think they do anymore. Yeah, I think galleries are struggling. I I did something myself with nick by coincidence for an nft thing and I they used all the agent provocateurs and we rostrum camera, filmed them and mix them all together and then they projected them once and they were like screens the size of that wall and it was this room that we went into and I walked in and my pictures danced and moved and I followed it around the room and was just sitting there going, oh this looks fucking extraordinary. And everyone was having their picture taken. They were doing selfies in front of the girls from Agent Proctor.

Speaker 1 1:48:01

So it becomes content again.

Speaker 2 1:48:03

Yeah, it was content. But in that little moment I went oh, no one wants to take this home with them. They all want to be filmed in front of it and film themselves in front. So it's their story and what you're doing is renting out. You're renting out your tin, essentially, and it's content for other people and I.

Speaker 1 1:48:24

That's the way it is but does that leave you positive because of the things you always hit the same bowie it's positive and negative oh, it's going out the window. But oh, I can now create this.

Speaker 2 1:48:35

I still have a little thing with Tallulah Dreams. I thought shall I do one last story and do it with a modern idiom? So the last story in Tallulah Dreams is her growing up and she marvels in it, which I probably will do.

Speaker 1 1:48:49

Have you got the concept for that one yet?

Speaker 2 1:48:50

Yeah, I have actually. It's like with the tableaus. I suddenly said the other day, if I'd shot witches and I had a huge, great big screen and that the owl flies across the screen and the wolf moves around and there's four pages flutter in a book, that will be whether I don't know how you sell that to one. It's LED, you know. And I suddenly thought, yeah, if the story's good enough and you can animate it. I think you know who wants to look at a two-dimensional flat print, no matter how great.

Speaker 2 1:49:25

So I think big screen installations will be a huge thing. The commerce aspect of it I don't know It'll be. I still quite like commerce aspect of it. I don't know It'll be. I still quite like the idea of one-offs. I think I might do the four Asian blockadeur tableaus as one-off installations and sell them off. Just sell it one or and that'd be it.

Speaker 2 1:49:46

But I, you know, I think the commerce side of the print, sales things is horrendous. I can't stand it. I sales things is horrendous. I can't stand it. I'd rather give them away. You know, it's like I found that doing the book, I think the book, I don't know what the book cost me to make, I didn't care, I got it printed for me. I didn't do many, I did live than 150 and they've nearly all gone and people have bought that I think have been fans and I've really felt like I'm really glad they've got it. Oh, but you can produce it on amazon and sell it for £13.50 and da-da-da-da. I know it's the way to do it and I know you reach more people and maybe globally you make more money. I'm not asked.

Speaker 2 1:50:23

A really unspoke product is always much rather… it's your tin at the end of the day right, it's my tin.

Speaker 2 1:50:29

Do you know what would be? The dream scenario Is that someone came along and like with Tullio Dreams, I'd do 20 prints on a wall, do a book, so everyone would buy the book at a reasonable price and that thing. And then someone came in and went I want the whole collection done. Actually, weird enough, which was how Bowie worked for his shoot, I got a flat fee and he owned everything. I'd love to be in that bloody Bowie thing at the V&A.

Speaker 2 1:50:54

I'm not sure whether they've got all the pictures or anyone knows them, because he did so many. He did so much work. And last thing on that Bowie thing was that when I did that, because the album got mixed reviews and now it's actually becoming a little bit like people going. Actually I really like that album. It's a bit more cold now and they're kind of going. I get it.

Photography, Influence, and Empowerment

Speaker 2 1:51:14

I actually, with that transformation he'd stripped everything back. The other things, what had to happen, the p8, the album cover had. My only regret with the album cover was that they and he's a brilliant artist called rex ray, but someone at the start of the camel process, someone, at least a really minimal, and we better fill that space up and rex did these drawings over overlays and did all this very clever artwork and I think he'd be the first to admit that it didn't really go with the picture. And now they've done hundreds of re-releases of the album and they've done it with plain imagery and I think people have started to go. Actually they are quite nice and I think they are quite good. I mean, lots of people you know much photograph man in the world, so it's my day. No one could take that away from me, you know. And anyone ever says, oh, who's the best person you ever photographed? Seriously, on a personal level, it's pathetic really, it's steven gerrard.

Speaker 1 1:52:05

Come on, let's tell the steven gerrard story, because you photographed him a couple of times, I think yeah, I had a couple I had me at jorda pesky goodfellas, one for Adidas that would come on tell the story. Well, that idea was just that Different audience, right.

Speaker 2 1:52:17

Yeah, I'd photographed Chelsea and it had taken six weeks. They didn't turn up. We had to go LA.

Speaker 1 1:52:24

It was like one player.

Speaker 2 1:52:25

Exactly.

Speaker 2 1:52:26

And it was all this and I thought Adidas, I'm thinking, and Liverpool sponsors, it's massive. I'm thinking, oh please, board sponsor, I think, please be Liverpool. And it was Chelsea. And I came back and went we want you to do Liverpool as well. I'm like, oh my god, six weeks leading up to the 2007 Champions League final, this is just the best job in the world.

Speaker 2 1:52:43

And they all turned up on day one in 15 minute intervals. They were all in and out and gone in in a flash. Each player was 15 minutes and gone and they were all super nice. And I was so excited getting to gerald and carry her last two players and he walked in and he'd had a stag weekend and I went how was your stag weekend? Did your wife enjoy her hen weekend? He went what? And we went through you know, joe pesky and in goodfellas with rayley otter and I went.

Speaker 2 1:53:11

No, I just meant what do you mean? Well, it just meant what do you mean? Well, I didn't. What do you? What are you implying? Nothing, and you know it got so bad at the end. I'm devastated and he just growled at me the whole half an hour he was there and six months later, the back of the cop has got all the latest pictures and there's all the players smiling and laughing and there's Steven Gerrard looking at you like he wants to punch you in the face and then I've got to photograph him. I think it was a year later, with Jamie Redknapp had a magazine. He said what do you think? I went, oh God, and I just had the best day. It was funny as anything and really nice guy. I just caught him on a bad day and that day was the day that was jamie. May I never do pictures of people. And he would go and do a picture with steve and I'm like no, you could just get in there and do a picture. And he took picture and I just look like a complete idiot.

Speaker 1 1:54:05

I'm just grinning do you treasure premieres? I don't know where it is. Oh no, it's no, it's a polaroid as well.

Speaker 2 1:54:10

I don't know. No, maybe it's a digital, I don't know. I don't know where it is, but yeah, that was. I mean that and Grace Jones.

Speaker 1 1:54:16

So what? Oh yeah, we mentioned Grace Jones earlier. Why was Grace Jones?

Speaker 2 1:54:19

Just because of her character? Yeah, and it's.

Speaker 1 1:54:23

You know it's proper Old school.

Speaker 2 1:54:24

You shoot at night. She gets there at midnight Oysters and caviar, and oh really yeah. Oh really yeah, vintage red wine, and she's loud as you like when she turns up, and then you just what was that for, even in Standard or?

Speaker 2 1:54:37

It was, it was yeah, and I think it was I'm not sure what it ended up. It ended up going everywhere like a press thing. And I was a massive Jean-Paul Goude fan. I mean I think if ever you've got a cross between Newton and Bourd, her ex-husband yeah, that that's a great book. Jungle fever great, great book. And I brought the original one with me because I'm that.

Speaker 2 1:54:59

I think it's 1977, but we had this thing where she was so fierce and terrifying. And then you start talking about children and about your love and your love for jean-paul goude and what it was like and how difficult it was being a model but nothing negative I was. She could of dwelled on all kinds of different things. She was a beautiful woman in every aspect and we were in some studio and it was all night and we shot all through. 10 o'clock in the morning I went oh, can we open a window, get a bit of light in here? And one of those studios which had a loading bay or something on the second floor and out this thing I'm dangling my feet sat getting the morning light and when she came, sat next to me she I've really enjoyed it and it was also and I said look, this is really naff, because I thought it was really at times. Would you sign that? Because you've got jungle fever and she's done a lovely big signing on the book and then she left and you got the approval that you wanted.

Speaker 1 1:55:53

You always want those people.

Speaker 2 1:55:54

Yeah, maybe, yeah, I didn't think of it like that way. I mean I just I, I love, yeah, I do love powerful women. You know I'm not saying that. You know it's very difficult nowadays. Women's empowerment I do. I think agent focato is empowering, not really, but women have got for me, have always had. I want to be approved. You know I kind of yeah, I probably do.

Speaker 2 1:56:16

You know it does go back to your mother, yeah, same for me, though I'd hate it if any model ever turned around to me and said oh, I hate working you were horrible.

Speaker 1 1:56:24

I'd be gutted. Yes, I'd be absolutely devastated.

Speaker 2 1:56:28

I've got such a respect. You know my daughter models and I. A lot of things are passed on to her. It's always that is a job and you've got to have that self-worth and there's things out there trying to tell you not to have that self-worth and to be. If I'm really honest, I think a lot of women are very cruel to models in the industry. You know, with this feeling that this is the time to empower a lot, do seize the opportunity to tell a model no, she's not right, it's too fat, she's not, she's boring. Oh, she looks like princess. Yeah, I find it quite a strange thing, but I think for stars, there's so many good female photographers around the harley woods, there's so many. I mean I could listen forever. You know, I think it's a great time, but I just see, I do see a kind of equality.

Speaker 2 1:57:13

Pamela hansen was no different to neil kirk. For me when I was growing up, ellen von unworth was. You know I was. I was often parallel, because of agent roger, with ellen. Ellen's a really fantastic photographer. They've done their own thing. You've got to be very single-minded, independent, and I say it to my daughter all the time never let it. You know, the weirdest thing in it is you go through your whole life and I always think I don't want to work. For you know, if I think someone's really nasty, I don't want to do it. And I've had, you know, with joe and serena agent doctor. I loved them, I thought they were great.

Speaker 1 1:57:46

Yeah, I just had nothing but admiration for them and I think with agent it sounds like you were very much part of the team. You you were integral in a lot of respects to creating those.

Speaker 2 1:57:55

Like I said about with Anna Wintour, it's that thing If you don't do the commercial line, you don't get to do the stories. And I think Grace Coddington says that at the end of the September issue there's a story she's trying to get a McQueen story through and it keeps pushing, keeps pushing and Anna Wintour's pushy and and winter's going. It's not commercial enough, it's not going to happen. It's one of them things where I just sort of think you have to bow to commerce. Any artist that's doing their work, if people don't get it, it ain't gonna get seen. And you can look at something that you think is naff and go why does that work? Why does that work? Um, do you think people get your work? I don't care, I really don't, I don't give a shit I think that's a more important thing to not give more important is that what goes out right down to like the detail.

Speaker 2 1:58:44

If the detail is right and people can be bothered to look. You know, I I think with the book, everyone's gone. Why have you done a collab with dave? Because I like dave simple. I think with the book, everyone's gone. Why have you done a collab with Dave? Because I like Dave Simple.

Speaker 2 1:58:58

The next one I'm not going to call it the sexy one, the saucy book, let's call it saucy. I like saucy, it's a better word. Where are I going to put it? I tell things. There are little things that I kind of think have gone. Oh, it might get you cancelled or whatever.

Speaker 2 1:59:11

I will put paintings in by warren king. I love warren king's work. I think he's brilliant artist and I would put more of dave's work and I put other people's work in because they influenced me. Dave influenced me. Dave makes me laugh on a regular basis and sometimes you put something with mine that's quite might look quite serious, and then you put something with it that you go to learn the dreams. Actually, that has been quite interesting because it's a, it's a revisitation and it's not just an archive thing because, um, I didn't tell a story properly. As usual, it's like I'm on to the next one. You know, we, the harvey nichols, went in the loo. I didn't know. I found out that yeah, this is in the vna as well and I'm like, really, I didn't know. No one told me what. I never bought the bowie album cover. I didn't get an autograph on the day it's like it's so fast paced.

Speaker 1 1:59:55

You're on to the next one.

Speaker 2 1:59:56

I want the next, you feel?

Speaker 1 1:59:57

like you're going at a slightly slower pace now different pace.

Speaker 2 2:00:01

I think it's. Uh, I'm actually being held responsible I think?

Speaker 1 2:00:05

and what's the end goal to that pace for you at the moment?

Speaker 2 2:00:08

ideally more books and shooting for books. Like I said, I'm I'm going to do that shoot with the Lula and then turn the whole collection into a book and then put it into a book and then do an exhibition with it.

Speaker 1 2:00:20

And then by then, Saucy.

Speaker 2 2:00:21

Book will be out, so there's your three.

Speaker 1 2:00:23

Yeah, apart from those, I know they're quite epic. What else is on the cards for?

Speaker 2 2:00:28

Tim in the future.

Speaker 1 2:00:34

Obviously, we are sat in a gallery and you can buy many of Tim's prints. I feel like we're going to do a little push.

Photography, Artistry, and Memories

Speaker 2 2:00:36

The four AI things I will do oh you're like oh yeah okay.

Speaker 2 2:00:39

So that's going to keep me doing it for yourself. It's a weird thing I think I might leave this as the epitaph of this talk. It is all the way through Numerous people, with Penny Charringrington, the art teacher, carl templer, roberto people always going do what you believe in, what you think. I mean you've got to have that commerce sense ability. Life might have been different if I'd 100 believe in everything I did and just gone now I'm doing it that way. I remember doing a job. No, I asked to do a job and it was. I think it was pop noodle, it was something like that and they called me in and they went. We want you to shoot victoria silverstep on a donkey in the mojave desert with a mariachi band singing a mariachi song with guitars and I went in stills, not motion stills.

Speaker 1 2:01:33

Yeah, sorry, and I was a bit like I'm sorry, I don't eat pop noodle.

Speaker 2 2:01:38

I don't want to work with victoria silverstone, I don't want to work with mariachi, I'm not interested. And I walked away and about a month later the freelance assistant was working for me I've just been out in the mojave desert and he went. It's mental. We did this pop noodle thing and he did it with David LaChapelle and I just sat there and went. Yeah, I still felt I didn't want to do it. It's like now I told you a job came in yesterday. If it comes back and they go oh, it's shooting, something that I think is shit.

Speaker 1 2:02:10

I'm not interested, you know, did you once you heard that Le Chapelle had Fogre, was that?

Speaker 2 2:02:15

oh well, they came to me first no, I just thought David Chappelle is about 100 grand better off. In fact we I got very synonymous with him and it it kind of hurt me because I always thought I'm much more European. Looking. The stuff with Jodie is more you. He's got his more mandala paws and there's lots of muscly men and it's probably more homoerotic. I don't know what you call it Love oil. I wasn't asked, I didn't care. I just think no complaints, no Good for him. I think you get out what you put in.

Speaker 2 2:02:47

If I haven't got any notoriety or I haven't got my place booked in the annals of photography, so be it. I think thousands of great photographers. I think to do it now as well would be really something, because I think to do it in the days of the Bailey's and the Penns and Aviduns they really were. But then you see that stuff exist. Then you know that's 1970. It's probably more out there than anyone shooting at the moment and it's there's none of this. There's always this latest. That's the thing we look for, the latest and the newest, and the AI and that NFT, and are we going to make millions? And it's like, eh, go on, do something. That stops me.

Speaker 2 2:03:29

I walked into Nick's show the other day and I saw examples of the best work. He was just like I'm showing the world a narrative. These are what people are doing. Simon foxman featured it, who was his old stylist. I think simon's retired from starling now, does it works with mid journey? Amazing, some crazy stuff, isn't it? It's got imagination and it's. If you turn that imagination into a visual imagery, which is what ai will do, I think, great, I'm all for it. You know where do you think I leave?

Speaker 1 2:03:54

photography though Tim. As to you said yourself.

Speaker 2 2:03:59

you've just done a course on screen printing. I think screen printing was dead 10 years ago and people are going. The process is like the dark room. Is there a better feeling in photography than the dark room? No, I think. A print, working on a print and then getting the exposures right, and it's in the dev and it goes in the wash and then it's in the fix and you turn the light on and go there's something handcrafted and made.

Speaker 1 2:04:25

Yeah, you know and and is that how you feel about the books. Yeah, the element that they're yeah, when we're making your stories, your handcraft. Yeah, you're curating that whole and the book.

Speaker 2 2:04:35

I found a place in scotland, david, and you know, and I said, oh, grab a little ribbon in it to open the page on it. Can we have gold leaf on the sides, or can we have a little musical playlist in there that connects to spotify, and what can I do? And I had all these little ideas and then we just did them all and he was just enthused and it came back and I do, I still open it and go God, I made that I was going to say.

Speaker 1 2:04:59

what was that like when you saw the first?

Speaker 2 2:05:00

copy. Why didn't I do that earlier? Really Never thought about it, never dawned on me.

Speaker 1 2:05:14

I mean even galleries and shows and things like that. I still don't sort of say like the gallery shows almost became a bit by accident, didn't? You came into here and jewel was a big bowie fan, yeah, but now these books. It's interesting I? I know I started with your mum's magic tin and people are like what the fuck are you talking about magic tin? But I feel like I wanted to find what I wanted to.

Generational Influence and Emotional Resilience

Speaker 2 2:05:27

I didn't. You said a couple of things in the jackal trace quote. That's actually really, um, because I do. You know, in my quieter moments I kind of go that's half decent, actually, that's quite nice. Actually someone buys a print and I go up to print space and they bring it out and I have to sign it. They lie it down and I go, wow, and if I haven't printed it before, I've never printed sirens. Someone printed it before. I've never printed sirens. Someone bought a massive 755 footprint of sirens for new york and took it out and I just remember going, wow, that is actually quite cool. I didn't remember there were hyenas in it. I didn't remember there were. There were, you know, bones and things like that.

Speaker 1 2:06:06

Yeah, it's like there's a little easter egg, yeah it is, isn't it?

Speaker 2 2:06:09

I love that and I you know it's always that I always love.

Speaker 1 2:06:11

It's interesting that you've forgotten half of them as well.

Speaker 2 2:06:14

But you know, still I look at with Joe appearing in all the tableaus, it was always that one of the biggest early influences was Hitchcock. Always, was Always loved Hitchcock films and I liked how disturbed they were and how wrong they were. And yet he was actually quite ridiculous and actually when you look back at the birds and go see what he did to Tippi Hedren in that film and you go he's a really weird man. I mean, maybe I'm weird, I don't know.

Speaker 1 2:06:39

Do you think you need an element of weird in inverted commas to do what we do?

Speaker 2 2:06:44

I think you need something. You need another perspective. I think if you have a perspective, so many people that I admire that I just think, you know, like a lot of rappers, I like I wouldn't say it's like my primary source of music. I'm more of a jazz person but I like I really love music and I see a rapper and he'll come up with an idea and I think, yeah, I'm listening to it and I've got, I've heard this style, I know that, and that's when you listen to it and go, actually that's, and then I'll hear a bit of John Coltrane being sampled in the background and then I'm that's jack the johnette I don't know where that come from and the mcguffins and you know, hitchcock always talks about those little things where you go actually, why the hell am I watching this? And then you trace it back and and I do think you trace it- god you know you trace that thing back to the mother edipus is it edipus?

Speaker 1 2:07:32

yeah, maybe we've got an easy. Should we just blame our mothers and leave it on that too?

Speaker 2 2:07:35

yeah, I mean, I've got you know. Weirdly enough, my mom was very, very revealing, certainly especially later in life, I think, when they go on that reversal transcend thing, where I'd certainly last six months. My mom was alive. I think we talked about the 70s or the 60s and buying me, love me do in 1964. And then, week by week, conversation went back in time and then mom would start talking about the war and then she started talking about a week before she died. I always remember we were.

Speaker 2 2:08:04

She was sitting in a sunny chair and I'm chatting away with an. A mouse went past her French windows and my old mommy got mice. And then she stood up and she walked to the french windows and she pulled the curtains too, and then she opened the curtains up and she sang me this song about a mouse that she'd sung at dockhead school when she was five, and she sang in a little girl's voice, I think it was. Three days later she actually said to me I'm not well really, and a week later she was gone and I kind of think she'd just gone back through the tin, emptying the tin out, and I'd give you one last, one gorgeous thing she did.

Speaker 2 2:08:42

My mom was very, very proud of being from south london and not being in east london because she had quite a strong accent. People would say, well, your mom's a cockney and she'd be like fucking cockney. Gee, you know, and I remember we were sitting then and she gave me this letter and she looked there's a picture of my dad, and it was. He was in his first world war outfit and he'd been in the song. It was in an envelope and I looked to the back of the envelope this charles henry harding, in front which the dad, and on the back it had one bethel green square, e1.

Speaker 2 2:09:14

I went, queen lived in e1 at one stage, and she took the envelope, put the dad and on the back it had one Bethel Green Square, e1. I went where you lived in E1? At one stage, and she took the envelope, put the picture back in it and she stuffed the envelope down the side of the chair and my mom. When my mom passed away I went to get the tin and I thought I wonder if that thing is still down there and it had gone. So she erased all knowledge of living in Ewan.

Speaker 2 2:09:35

It was always Berlin Toolee Street and Spa Road and Jamaica Road and all that kind of stuff. But the weird thing is I know all her history and I know nothing about my dad. I didn't know my dad's parents' mum's name when I was like who's this?

Speaker 1 2:09:51

How interesting.

Speaker 2 2:09:53

I only found out last Monday. Her name was Cross. My great-grandmother's name was Cross C-R-O-S, and he was the total opposite to her. I mean, they come from a family of massive family history. It was none of them dads, and I had a weird thing with dad. They'd never show any emotion.

Speaker 2 2:10:11

And one of the things I did I said, oh, I've got a film you and I are going to watch. And you went okay, we turned the lights down in the back room and we got on Cinema Paradiso and it's a film about this projectionist and what he does is he teaches this boy life through film, but he's always made to cut the kissing sequences out, you know, for moral purposes. And the boy comes back years later, after the projectionist has died, and he finds this silver trip tin. That's ironic, I didn't think of that. And he's put together all the kisses and he goes into the projection room and he puts the film on and he projects all the kisses that have been taken out. You know Humphrey Bogart or you know all these kind of things, and it's just one of the most moving things.

Speaker 2 2:10:54

And I remember I looked around at my dad. My dad just raised his hand up to his eye, wiped his eye and the film ended and I went oh, what do you think of that? He went, yes, yes, quite interesting. And he got up and walked out and I just thought you wouldn't give me an interview. He wouldn't ever let it on and open up and you realize, I think that generation are incredible because I, if I'd say, yeah, my mom, things happened to my mom during the war ends and my dad lost brothers and sisters, mothers, fathers.

Legacy and Narration in Photography

Speaker 2 2:11:19

They lost everything we couldn't comprehend and they don't ever, never, got pissed off about anything, nothing. And I think the guiding thing would always be say with my mom would always be that thing where she would go I come home and I moan about my wife and kids and how hard it was at work, and then she'd let me talk about it, and then she'd go right, you're going to shut up now. I'd go, what do you mean? She'd go stop bloody moaning. You don't know how good you got it. Shut up, get on with it.

Speaker 1 2:11:45

And that was always a yeah.

Speaker 2 2:11:47

It's like every generation.

Speaker 1 2:11:49

It's tougher than the last.

Speaker 2 2:11:51

I mean she did bore my kids with the tale. They got an orange one Christmas. She said best Christmas we've read we got an orange and a piece of coal, yeah and I was like mum you must be, you must have got something else.

Speaker 1 2:12:02

No, I didn't is there anything you think we haven't spoken about that we should? I mean, we've spoken about a lot, tim, and we've danced around and I think it's all there. I mean, I mean there's obviously stuff that we go. What was it like to photograph the spice? But I didn't want that. I want, no, I want you and the legacy I think it's.

Speaker 2 2:12:22

I think legacy is the key word. I think you and I I don't profess to be able to say to anyone who wants to do photography or vision, you know, wherever it is, ar, wherever you do, I can't tell you because the time's changed.

Speaker 2 2:12:34

You know, time has changed for Avid and then Bailey, and it's changed for me and the timescales. There's so many technical, the phone has changed everything, blah, blah, blah. But the one thing that will get you there is the oldest advice in the book, and it is that if you've got something to say and you want to show people what you want to say, then bloody, do it. And if anyone turns around and says, oh, but Sunset did that, or someone rips you off, don't worry about it. It's just tell your story and that process of narration, you know, forming a narrative, which is what photography does best, I think, more so than painting.

Speaker 2 2:13:06

With painting you have to look into something and make a connection. It's personal, but with photography there are clues in photography, you know, and it's historical Photography. The history of my mum's family in the tin is there because those pictures there, if you look at historical pictures and the greatest photography has always been reportage Harold Evans' pictures on the page, yeah, probably still my favourite photography book because it will show you a picture of the kids in Vietnam who had been hit with napalm, and it shows you how the shot was done, how it was cropped for the newspaper, how it was cropped for something else, and everyone takes their different narrative and you tell your story and you tell it honestly and really stick to your guns. And as soon as you start thinking about commerce, I'm not going to say you're screwed, but the less you distract from it by thinking will this sell or will it make me famous? Will this get me in a gallery? Will I just do that?

Speaker 2 2:14:00

Now, making things is the important thing. Being in the dark room, making the book, making the pictures, all those things, all those things are the fun bits. I don't think, as you, as a photographer, you never go home and look at the retouched picture and go, wow, you go home and look at the retouch picture and go, wow, you go home at the end of that first day. Or, and you get a contact sheet back in the day, what was more joyous and what looks like? Yes, putting a cross birtstone, where would we?

Speaker 1 2:14:22

be without a red cross, you know, but you know, I still look at those things.

Speaker 2 2:14:27

They're contact sheets, I think they're beautiful yeah, that's the bit where there's no manipulation, there's no taking it off in a different direction. No, I mean, every photographer you've ever worked with, I always used to edit for magazines, right, and I give them six transparencies up each outfit and I'd number them one to six and it didn't take me long to work out, reverse, order them, because they will never pick one, two and three. They'll always pick oh, three, four and five. Look really nice. You go, but look at one and in your head one is the one that connects. And I do think you do, I think you know just the trust you've got. Yeah, because that is the truest thing you're doing. You're going that works, I know that works, I'm confident and it will. And it is, you know, with the horse and camel analogy, and it is, you know, with the horse and camel analogy. I've done a shoot or two with my daughter and I just sit there going why, why did you pick that picture? That's so much nicer and I'm like look at the, look at the.

Speaker 2 2:15:25

No, yeah, but we see things from the we see yeah, you know, when they tell you to, now he or she, whatever it's got an Instagram, understanding, and it's that behind the scene, what made the picture which I'm only interested in. What was the best picture of that person? I'm not interested in behind the scenes, I'm not interested in.

Speaker 1 2:15:42

That's our old. We've got to get the final shot, the best shot for the advertisers to sell their best product, and we want that.

Speaker 2 2:15:49

I do you know, I think photographers if they say, oh, it's all dying off, it's your own fault for publishing pictures showing all your lighting and it seems to be a kind of like I don't know a currency out of that which I just don't get it. You know, when people sit there and go. I used a softbox with this over there with the gauze shot through this, I went through a phase when the lighting we had to light softer, purely for digital. We had to flatten everything out and everyone's shooting into an umbrella, through another room, but into a scrim, and then bounced up and I'm sitting again.

Speaker 2 2:16:20

Okay, all right. How many times can you bounce a bloody light?

Speaker 1 2:16:22

you know, it's kind of like but then I never quite got that because in my brain I was like if you put the light closer, it's going to be softer anyway. That's need 17 layers and you think that was used to amaze you with like I am.

Speaker 2 2:16:35

I've been studying photography for five years now. I'm now going to invest in the 500 millimeter lens so I can stand a long way away and still get that feeling. And you go why don't you just walk closer? Yeah, and it'd be like, save yourself 600 quid. Yeah, it'd be.

Speaker 2 2:16:48

I had an assistant, I've got, we got, so I've got tilt bringing. But it's one thing. I had an assistant who I loved probably the best assistant I ever had Amazing girl Sarah. And I remember, oh, we're in a garden in LA and I go, oh yeah, put a beauty dish up there, put a strip there, soft box up there. Can you put five heads with grids on like small, medium, large down there, color gel on that one, this, that and the other. I'm just going to have a cup of tea and I come back and it'd be like Polaroid and it was bang on and I'm thinking so we've done that whole process. You know, you're kind of, it doesn't mean anything. And now everyone's just so like I've now done this and like you said now it doesn't matter, because they'll journey today.

Speaker 2 2:17:30

Well, yeah, thank god you know, thank god for mid-journey, thank god all hail mid-journey, although I'm not sure that's where I'd like to leave this podcast. Thank god for mid-journey, but no, not thank god for it.

Speaker 1 2:17:41

No I think. Don't hate him. No, it's a new tool, isn't it that? As again, it's about an evolution of creativity. Do you ever think it's like?

Speaker 2 2:17:47

if you use a tool for photography, it's like using the difference. When, like when you get a really good stylist, I've known that from day one. A one element of hair, makeup and styling is wrong, and the shoes fuck. It doesn't matter what you do. I'd look back on so many shoots and I go I can't look at that shoot because I don't like the hair. I can't look at that shoot, I don't like like say if one element, one element's out.

Speaker 2 2:18:10

I don't. I looked at something the other day and I don't like the shoes. I can't look at those. I never can. No one's ever going to see that set of pictures and it was like, well, them things get it wrong and it's uh, yeah, I think you, you know, if you can look at a picture at the end and go actually there's nothing about that picture, I hate that's from. That's the criteria for it being good.

Speaker 1 2:18:29

That's hard, though, isn't it? With any creative element, you, there's always something you could have done. Well, there's always something you could do maybe.

Speaker 2 2:18:35

But you know, as long as nothing jars with you, this is not. You know. I know all the work, all the pictures that would go in my team. It'd be, I'd have to say yeah, I can't see editing. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Speaker 1 2:18:48

I kind of yeah wow, I mean end it on that well no, I mean, I think we've spoken about so much and I'm sure there's lots of stuff that people will go well, why didn't you speak about this? Or why didn't you speak about that, bearing in mind? They're probably going to look at your back catalogue of work of advertising portraiture and go, oh, I would have loved you to have spoken about that, but we have got a closing tradition. I think I have pre-warned you about the inspiring quote and someone in your network that you think would be an interesting guest to suggest to be on the podcast, my inspiring quote would be um 100.

Speaker 1 2:19:22

Just do it from the heart and if you've got an idea and you think that's gonna really take some effort, do it um, that's great advice, especially bearing in mind the audience I think we've got, which is creative, entrepreneurial goal setters, and they want to do things.

Speaker 2 2:19:36

No, that would be it the next person always really difficult I mean god, there must be a lot of people in.

Speaker 1 2:19:43

There's a lot.

Speaker 2 2:19:43

I mean, I would ask joe cory, because I think joe's doing different things now I can ask him. I would ask I think that the most inspiring photographer I've met recently is Brett Walker, and I started following Brett when lockdown started. He's a portrait photographer.

Speaker 1 2:20:03

But he does those beautiful, the more surreal.

Speaker 2 2:20:06

He's amazing. I love his work, absolutely love his work. I think he's reclusive, I'd he's. Do you think he'd say, yes, that's the best bit? I don't know. I'll ask him.

Speaker 1 2:20:19

Let's see okay, so we've got him and possibly joe correy. Joe correy if he doesn't say no, I think we're gonna leave it there, tim.

Speaker 1 2:20:26

Thank you so much for doing the creative noel and mate I am yeah, I didn't want to fanboy too much, but honestly, I'm very, very honored and thankful for you doing it, because your work has been some that I've admired for a very, very, very long time, and to have you in the creative network is pretty epic now. So I can't thank you enough and I can't wait to see future books with talula, the nfts of ap or the screen yeah yeah, the movement one off yeah and obviously me being me, I can't wait for the saucer One of them, yeah yeah, the movement, one of them.

Speaker 2 2:20:57

Yeah, and obviously me being me, I can't wait for the saucer book. Yeah, the saucer book, yeah. I thought one other quote you could. I always love that Motorhead quote of let's have everything louder than everything else. I think that'd be on my gravestone.

Speaker 1 2:21:06

That's the drummer in you too. Yeah, that's the drummer, great. Should we leave it there, sir? Thank you for listening to the creative noah land podcast. If you found anything inspiring or useful in this episode, please consider subscribing or maybe sharing the episode with a friend. Anything you can do to help promote and support creative noah land is so beneficial and I really appreciate it. Check out the website and sign up to the newsletter to be the first to know of everything that's going on here in creative noah land, and I really appreciate it. Check out the website and sign up to the newsletter to be the first to know of everything that's going on here in Creative Nowhere Land. Thanks again for listening and until next time. Explore, inspire and create.

Speaker 2 2:21:47

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way, and so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question what do I desire?