#0017 BOXI TRIXI - PURSUING PEACE THROUGH CREATIVITY!

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land podcast. 

On this episode, we're joined by Boxi Trixi.  Originally from Argentina, Boxi grew up around skateboarding and the hardcore punk music movement of the 1990s. Here, he developed his love of music and the 'give it a go' attitude that would shape one hell of a creative journey. 

Most well known for his distinct Neo Primitive style of art and paste up characters, that can be seen in cities all over the world.  Boxi creates power figures or totems that he hopes the viewer builds a relationship with and can inspire them in their lives. And, despite prolifically producing art and being a major contributor to the global paste up scene for over 20 years, Boxi would still say that he doesn't consider himself an artist.

He would say he's definitely not a Chef either. Despite spending years working in some of the best restaurants in both Argentina and Spain. And he would say he's not a Musician.  Despite discovering a revolutionary new instrument, which opened doors allowing him to perform all over the world and collaborate with famous musicians for more than 15 years.

So how does Boxi describe himself?

Well, in this episode we go into his remarkable journey from Argentina to the UK through caves, kitchens, and concert halls. His story reveals that no creative path needs to be linear, and pursuing what brings you peace can create ripples of positive energy to everyone you encounter.

This episode is full of stories of resilience, adaptability, sacrifice and a little bit of luck along the way.  So enjoy and we hope it inspires you in some way!

Check out the links below to explore some of Boxi's work as you listen.

BOXI TRIXI INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/boxitrixi/

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative No-Alan podcast. Now, I've struggled a little bit with the introduction to this one. As our guest on this episode, boxy Trixie has had one hell of a creative journey, one filled with resilience, adaptability, sacrifice and also a little bit of luck, but he definitely lives up to his name and is an incredibly multi-talented box of tricks. Now, he would say that he's not a chef, despite working in some of the best restaurants in both Argentina and Spain. He'd say he's not a musician, despite discovering a revolutionary instrument that opened a lot of doors and allowed him to perform on albums and collaborate with famous musicians from around the world for 15 years. And he would definitely say that he wasn't an artist, despite this being the thing that he's probably most well known for now prolifically producing his distinct style of neo-primitive art and being a major contributor to the global paste-up scene for over 20 years.

Meeting Boxy Trixie: A Box of Tricks

Speaker 1 1:06

For Boxy, it's not about any of these titles, definitions or even destinations. It's about the journey and the pursuit of something much, much bigger. And, as you're about to find out, no creative journey is ever a straight line. Oh, and also fun fact, he used to live in a cave. Anyway, check out the links to Box's work while you're listening, of course, and let's get into it. My first question you lived in a cave. Does that contribute to the style of work? Because in my interpretation, the style of work you produce now, yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, I'll get you to explain to the listeners about your work, but to me it feels quite primitive. It is and I know that's going to sound very strange to some people that you lived in a cave, but do you think that's got some sort of contributing factor?

Speaker 2 2:19

Could be, but it wasn't the only one, I think, because I wasn't looking for it, you know I wasn't looking for living in a cave, or it wasn't my idea, it just happened, but yeah, but do you think that?

Speaker 1 2:34

has had some influence on the work. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about how you would describe the work that you're creating now?

Speaker 2 2:43

I would say a little bit of neo-primitive what?

Speaker 1 2:48

do you mean by neo Neo?

Speaker 2 2:50

because it's not only influence but primitivism. Of course it is. But at the same time I have a lot of influence by, let's say, for example, music, cover of albums, designs on skateboards, on the boards, that kind of very colorful designs and very just one image, just an impact. I have an influence from many, many things. But living in a cave, definitely. I was living in a cave for a few months in Granada, without electricity, without any kind of heating systems, but it just happened. I wasn't looking for it, if you know what I mean. But I'm sure it has influence on my art because at the end of the day, that got me thinking, wow, life could be so simple. We don't really need much to keep living.

Speaker 1 3:48

And would you describe your art as simplistic? Very. How do you work? How do you create? Can you tell the listeners Because there's a multitude? You do block carving, you do straight to canvas, you do paste of work.

Speaker 2 4:00

Yeah, yeah, I think I don't have a system of working Well. One thing leads me to other things. For example, when I'm doing paystubs on the street, that takes a lot of walking. You're walking for hours and hours and hours. When you're walking on the street, you find a lot of materials. I don't know if people they're aware of all the materials that are available for you on the street that people just throw away. For example, let's say, if I see a container on the street, I'm the kind of guy who go there and have a look and see what's inside. You mean like a skip.

Speaker 1 4:40

Yeah, like a skip or a container or some kind of bin or I say well, I'm always looking for things on the street.

Speaker 2 4:48

And how does that enter your work? Because, for example, let's say, I find a nice wallpaper that was supposed to be for decorating a house and people just they have an extra roll and they won't use it, so they just chuck it away. And I said, okay, I can use that for paste up. I like that background, I'm gonna use the background and I'm gonna print a woodblock print on it. I'm always looking for results and materials. You know, in this country people they chuck away so many things like paint. I've got a whole shelf all that paint. I found it on the street and that's nothing you know, because I use a lot of paint. But I keep finding things all the time Like for woodblock prints, bits of timber.

Speaker 1 5:37

Yeah, yeah, it's, everywhere it's everywhere.

Speaker 2 5:40

So I use it for carving the wood blocks. So I'm always looking for stuff. It's not like I'm looking for stuff, but it's like I have a radar. I say you have an awareness yeah, yeah most people they just walk on the street.

Speaker 2 5:55

I'm always I'm looking for stickers, street art things I can use to produce my artwork. So for me, just walking down the street, it's not like for most people going from point A to point B. I also go. Okay, I can use this, like all the things most of the things that you're seeing now in my studio I found them on the street, so you're very resourceful.

Speaker 1 6:22

Where does that come from?

Speaker 2 6:26

Being from Argentina I was born in Argentina it's very difficult to get things there. I mean, everything is very expensive. If you want to do something, you have to find your way to do it. If you don't have a lot of money to do it, you have to find your way. So this whole thing I think it started there- Okay, obviously we need to go backwards a bit.

Speaker 1 6:46

What's growing up in Argentina? Like, like you say, when you're trying to do something, you have to be resourceful and find a way, but art's not the focus when you're growing up, really, is it? No, not at all.

Speaker 2 6:58

Growing up in Argentina, I mean, I think it's very tough and it's great because we are very passionate about most of the things that we do. You can see that on football, south American passion is very famous, yeah. But I would say, especially in Argentina we are very passionate about things. Probably it's because, basically, we are Italians. Everything it's very, it's like a religion, you know. It's like, yeah, very dramatic, very dramatic Okay, and if you're going to do something and you're going to live for it and die for it, and it's very, and what was that?

Speaker 1 7:39

when you were growing up, what were you passionate about? What was the thing that excited you? My passions, were music.

Speaker 2 7:47

I you passionate about. What was the thing that my passions were music? I remember when I was about eight years old listening to some tapes from my sister, like the cure, rolling stones and lots of things, skateboarding. I started at that age as well football, sports, different things. So I would say mostly music and, yeah, skateboarding why skateboarding?

Speaker 1 8:12

uh, it was just a cool thing yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 8:15

It was a new thing, I don't know here, but I'm talking about probably 1986, 87. So then I remember I saw a guy skateboarding and I said what's that? He was older than me, probably about 10 years old, and he told me yeah, this is skateboarding, I wanna do that, I wanna do that and yeah, that's how I got into that and did that, build friendships community network.

Speaker 1 8:44

Yeah, friendship being on street all the time what was it like being on the street in argentina in the 80s with this skateboard?

Speaker 2 8:53

back then in the air. It really started for me in the 90s, when I when I was 15 because when I was a kid, you know know, I just skateboarded, maybe on the weekends, something like you know, instead of going playing football.

Speaker 1 9:07

Yeah, it's more like a toy. Like a toy, you know.

Speaker 2 9:12

But at 15, you found a bit more of a passion. At 15, I met these guys at school. We used to play together. They said these skateboard men. Because I see you're wearing this jacket I don't know this Powell Peralta jacket, you know, and this yeah yeah, skate like old skateboard.

Speaker 2 9:30

Yeah, skateboard, do you skateboard? Yeah, okay, maybe instead of playing music this week and we can go out and skateboard, yeah. So it was like a crew, let's say, and we just loved it. It was for us it was like playing music, rehearsing and after that going skateboard. But I'm telling you every last, for 10 hours a day. You know it was mad.

Speaker 2 9:52

So and, and you said rehearsing, so music was a massive part of your yeah, yeah I think I always love to listen to music, as I'd say before, I started when I was eight and it wasn't just like, okay, let's put some music. I really, you know, I remember me sitting down in my bedroom, just wow, really paying attention to music.

Speaker 1 10:20

It wasn't a hobby, or it wasn amuse me, you were analyzing it lyrically, musically. Yeah, I was analyzing and saying like wow. Did you play musical instruments before you?

Speaker 2 10:30

had at this point? No, no, not at all.

Speaker 1 10:34

So when you said you were rehearsing at 15, how did?

Speaker 2 10:37

It started at secondary school because, as I said before, I used to live in the south side of the city in a place called Villa Dominico and that was probably an hour and a half away from my secondary school. But you had a break of two hours. Most of the guys there, they just went home have lunch and I wasn't able to do that because it took just an hour and a half just to get home.

Speaker 1 11:06

Then you'd have to get back get back.

Speaker 2 11:08

So I remember there was there were a couple of kids there who were in the same situation and we said, okay, and we need to find things to do for two hours. And I started seeing these guys carrying guitars or bass, bass guitars, and I said, yeah, maybe I can give it a go. So in those two hours, instead of just doing nothing or relaxing, we just hire a rehearsing room to go play, basically, if you can call that playing music.

Speaker 1 11:42

But for us.

Speaker 2 11:43

It was very, very important. You know it was like let me put you in context. This was early in the 90s. The hardcore movement was starting to be a huge thing between teenagers. Right, not hardcore, because when I say hardcore people nowadays they think about electronic music. Yeah, they call it hardcore. I'm talking about hardcore music like punk rock, right, post punk rock. The difference between it was like punk rock was like no future life, shit, fuck this.

Speaker 2 12:17

Yeah I don't want nihilistic, exactly, and hardcore was like fuck this, let's do something about it to change it. So you had that attitude.

Speaker 1 12:26

Exactly, it was a bit more activist. Exactly. Yeah, we're going to make change.

Speaker 2 12:30

DIY, you know, do it yourself. It doesn't matter if you're not good enough to play. It's all about having fun, spend time with your friends? Who cares about really? Just you have something to say, do it.

Speaker 1 12:46

It doesn't matter what people say or think, was that?

Speaker 2 12:48

an attitude in argentina.

Speaker 1 12:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, anti-establishment in that sense yeah and I think it wasn't.

Growing Up in Argentina: Music and Skateboarding

Speaker 2 12:54

it wasn't really happening in a lot of places, but I'm pretty sure it was happening in places like new york, sao Paulo in Brazil, a few places, and Buenos Aires was huge. It was called VA Hardcore.

Speaker 1 13:11

Buenos Aires, hardcore Buenos Aires.

Speaker 2 13:12

Hardcore.

Speaker 1 13:13

It was a huge thing because and did you see change as a result of this movement? You said, hardcore being the movement that wanted to say fuck this, let's do something about it.

Speaker 2 13:24

Yeah, were you seeing a change of course, but not in the world, in us, because we weren't naive. People say art's gonna change the world. I don't think that's gonna happen. I think it's a very naive idea thinking that art is gonna change the world say more?

Speaker 1 13:41

what? Why do you think you say art, do you mean, on a broader perspective, music, art, culture?

Speaker 2 13:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:46

Why do you not think that that can change the world?

Speaker 2 13:49

Well, it hasn't, has it? No, I think it can change your life. Art, I see it can change your life.

Speaker 1 13:58

That's what it was doing for you in Buenos Aires at that time.

Speaker 2 14:01

Exactly, it was changing my life and I can see it was changing my, my mate's lives, but we weren't.

Speaker 1 14:12

You weren't on a mission to change the world.

Speaker 2 14:13

No, no, no and I think this was it has something to do with being from Argentina that we're used to that things are going to fail because we had so many bad governments, so many crises, crisis after crisis. So I think this was a little bit more about like change your life. You don't like your life. Maybe, doing this, you can change your life.

Speaker 1 14:38

Do you think growing up in that situation built a resilience in you and your friends? Of course that wasn't perhaps in, maybe other yeah yeah yeah, of course it's okay. So you said it manifested in music and skateboarding. Yeah, you didn't have any formal lessons in music, you just picked up a guitar no, no, I think my, my lessons were like going to concerts.

Speaker 2 15:00

But then I don't know if you're allowed here in the UK if you're 14, 15, going to a concert on your own. I don't know how it works. But then everything was allowed. There were no rules and these hardcore bands were playing in very small venues for probably 50 people, 100 people. Then it started to grow and maybe 200, 400, 500, but it was never mainstream, it was always underground. Was that important? Yeah, uh yeah, well, I think because when anything goes, too commercial.

Speaker 2 15:35

yeah, yeah, but because it was a sense of community, because after a few months or a few years, if you went to the concerts, there were always the same people you know, and I remember you paid back then five pesos, let's say five pounds, and you were able to see probably 15 bands. It started at two in the afternoon and it ended at four in the morning. Oh well, that's a party.

Speaker 1 16:05

You said that when you were listening to the tapes from your sister, you were analysing the music. It wasn't just background. So when you were going to these concerts, you've had no formal training but are you looking at the way they're playing, analysing the breaks, analysing the flow of the music, analysing the rhythms, analysing technique, Because how does one learn an instrument without any?

Speaker 2 16:28

Well, I remember I took a lesson, a guitar lesson. The guy told me my teacher I was 14. The teacher was probably 20-something. He told me okay, so what bands do you like? And I said this and that, and he didn't even know them because they were these new hardcore bands. And he said okay, what else do you have? I said, okay, maybe the Sex Pistols or the Ramones.

Speaker 1 16:56

Something a bit more Ford-facing, more commercial, Something that he can relate to exactly and he told me okay, then I'm going to show you this.

Speaker 2 17:04

He told me, look, the guitar player from Ramones, he plays these three chords and with these three chords he made probably 15 albums. I said, okay, let's do it. So he showed me and I said let's start the band, you know.

Speaker 1 17:22

On three chords, you decided let's start the band. Well, if the Ramones can make 15 albums with three chords, exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 17:28

So in the rehearsal room, you and your friends and I remember an interview that I watched back then, when I was about 14 or 15, to Johnny Ramone, the guitar player from the Ramones, and he was saying something that for me everything clicked, because he said, yeah, when I was a kid there was this progressive rock like Led Zeppelin and all these very good musicians playing these solos five minute solos and I was listening to them and I said, wow, that's something that I will never, ever be able to do. But what I can do, it's like playing these few chords very, very fast, and I'm going to be the fastest guitar player on earth. So I think he saw a way to get away with it, but he already knew he was never going to be that good.

Speaker 1 18:23

But that goes back to what you said before about the Argentinian attitude and the hardcore attitude of okay, fuck this, but we'll find a way of making it work.

Speaker 2 18:30

Exactly Because, at the end of the day, it wasn't about being a professional musician or make a living out of that. What was it about for you, then? Having fun, having fun. A lot of the kids back then was like hey, dad, can you give me some money Because I need new shoes and new clothes, because I want to go to this club on the weekend? Uh, this other scene that I was in, it was something very different, you know. It was like okay, here's five pesos and with this very little money I can spend the whole night watching this great bands having fun.

Speaker 1 19:13

You don't even need a community with the community that is building and okay. So when did you and your friends get brave enough to go? I think we could do a gig or something, maybe from from minute one. Really, yeah, it was that confidence, yeah yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 19:31

And in our school, in our secondary school, there were lots of bands. Everyone was in a band or in two or three bands.

Speaker 1 19:39

There was this there's a real scene then real see. Is it competitive among? Not at all.

Speaker 2 19:45

No, everyone just wanted everyone to not enjoy yeah, I really love that it wasn't competitive, because I always hated competition. Why, I don't know, but I don't believe in winners and losers say more. Why? Because life is not like that for me. It's not about. I mean, you can win, but maybe you're miserable, and so what's the?

Speaker 1 20:12

point in winning if you're gonna sometimes you win but you actually lose. Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 20:17

I think it's about trying to have a good time, whatever it is that you're trying to do, because life is very hard most of the time. So I think there's a few things that you can find out about life, about doing this, and that that makes you happy and you get away with it.

Speaker 1 20:39

That sounds very much the mentality of you, your friend group at that time. It was about fun and we can do this, and it's about enjoyment. So where are you in terms of your education, your aspirations? What is that like, or is it? No, no, I just want to be in bands and I had no aspiration back then.

Speaker 2 21:01

Well, this school was more trades, you know, if you wanted to become an architect or a mechanic or a chemist or a carpenter, you know. But I mean, after three years I realized I wasn't. Really, it wasn't make me happy. What were you studying? Architecture, yeah, construction, not architecture. Construction, yeah, to become an architect eventually? Yeah, or an engineer. But I was spending lots of hours during the weekend just drawing blueprints and boring stuff. Well, not boring, but you know.

Speaker 1 21:36

I just wanted to go out, skateboard and play music.

Speaker 2 21:40

Yeah, play music. So it was like a very adult life. You know being not very happy at all during most part of the day, and I think music and skateboarding was my escape, because this school was very, very hard. You had to study a lot and I soon I realized this is not for me. I just like to hang out with friends, make music.

Speaker 2 22:08

Make music Skateboard but it wasn't like I was thinking about. Maybe I'm going to be a professional musician. I'm going to make my living out of it. No, no, no. I just wanted to have an escape from my reality waking up at 6 am, being at school at 8, from 8 to 6, going back home there at 8 in the evening, have dinner, go to bed same thing.

Speaker 2 22:39

Monotonous repetition of yeah and I was 14. I think this kind of life maybe if you're 20 or 20 something you can deal with it, but when you're that young, well, I I felt like it wasn't worth it. You know, I said no, no, I don't want this, you know, I just want something else.

Speaker 1 22:57

Did you have any push back from family, teachers, all this stuff, when you had this realization?

Speaker 2 23:02

no, not from my family, not from my teachers. They definitely said I.

Speaker 1 23:08

They said I think you're doing the right thing, yeah I think, I think you're not cut you know from this kind of things so where does that leave you then boxy, when you're so I?

Speaker 2 23:19

went back. I went back to a regular type of school and from all the things I learned during those three years in this special school I was able to do nothing for two years because I have already learned everything I see.

Speaker 1 23:39

So you went to the special school and you learned the skill sets that were being taught already. Yeah, so did that just open you up to go? Well, I don't have to do this, so I can now play music more skateboard, more.

Speaker 2 23:50

So, basically during my time in those two years to complete my secondary school in this new school, I did nothing. I just listened to music. I had a Walkman. Was it a Walkman there?

Speaker 1 24:04

Yeah, or a Discman. Was it a Walkman there or a Discman? Either way, we're showing our age.

Speaker 2 24:11

I had lost all my friends because I was the new. I left the school, my previous school. Was there a?

Speaker 1 24:20

similar sort of hardcore scene.

Speaker 2 24:23

No, no, no no, no, no, no. These were like regular kids, right. Yeah, they would think about you know, just going to a club on Saturday and being pretty, yeah, they're the ones that are asking mom and dad for money for shoes and clothes.

Speaker 1 24:40

Exactly, exactly so. Were you a bit of an outcast? Yeah, how did that feel? Great, great. Did that fit the whole ethos of being what? Well, I don't fit in, I just do my own thing.

Speaker 2 24:53

Yeah, yeah, but I didn't mind. You know I didn't mind. I just wanted to be left alone during those two years to complete my secondary school. You know I just wanted to. Was that isolating?

Speaker 2 25:05

yeah, very very, but it sounds like you weren't bothered by that. No, I was listening to music. Music was my comfort because the, the teachers, they, they were like. We had a very honest conversation, you know, with the, with the principal there, and they told me as long as you don't give us trouble, we won't bother you. Oh, amazing. So do whatever you want, just finish your school.

Speaker 1 25:32

And was there any art involved at this point?

Speaker 2 25:34

No or just music. Music. And yeah, let's say I started doodling, just doing some scribbles and doodles and whilst I was listening to my Walkman, just to keep Walkman, just to keep yourself entertained. Just to keep myself entertained. So I had a lot of that. Can you imagine, because this wasn't a school, that I was there from 8 to 6. I was only there from 8.30 to 12.30. Oh right, it was very easy for me.

Speaker 2 26:02

Just a few hours a day. As soon as I finished I went back home, grabbed my skateboard go skateboarding to meet my former mates from the other school.

Speaker 1 26:16

Was the distance too great for? You to be playing in the band and stuff now, yeah, Distance in Buenos Aires.

Speaker 2 26:23

It's a huge things, but you get used to it. For me, getting to the tube or the subway for two hours it's something really I'm used to it, it's just normal. It's just normal for me going from one point to another and it takes two hours and a half or three hours. Okay, yeah, public transport. You have to take the bus and then catch the subway and then Skateboard. The last time Skateboard.

Speaker 1 26:51

So yeah, so what happens when you finish school? Presumably you've given yourself, in some ways you've given yourself a music education, just from listening.

Speaker 2 27:03

Just from listening and from playing with another.

Speaker 1 27:08

I ask have you developed any more than three chords?

Speaker 2 27:10

no no, no still no, no, I was playing guitar, and that's so that I remember I had two pedals, you know, an override and a metal zone, and with those two pedals and the guitar I was. Did the band have a name? Uh, I remember one, it was called psycho chicken, psycho chicken that's brilliant I remember another one called molestando niños muertos bothering dead kids, kids.

Speaker 1 27:43

I was going to say. I did the translation in my head I was like are they fun?

Speaker 2 27:47

Yeah exactly, yeah, I remember I had lots of fans you know lots of them Because they didn't last. Of course, they lasted six months. We were kids.

Speaker 1 27:59

Someone got bored, moved on Exactly getting a job, you know.

Speaker 2 28:04

But back then, when I finished secondary school, I was 18. So I decided to take a year off. Well, of course, I had a job. What were you doing? Watching adverts. Getting paid for watching adverts.

Speaker 1 28:22

And I feel like we need to explore this a little bit, because I remember you saying that this gave you a lot of time, a lot of time. Can we just explain that? What do you mean? You were sitting watching adverts. How was that a job?

Speaker 2 28:33

I used to work for. It was called Channel 13. It was like BBC, you know, or Channel 4, I don't know. So my job basically was every day they handled me 10 VHS cassettes. In every show they had different types of adverts, traditional and non-traditional so I had to control that all the adverts were in place for a certain amount of time. Let's say, this client paid 15 seconds of airspace, so you had to control that. Okay, was the product showing in this show for 15 seconds? Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 29:16

Oh, I see, Tick on that.

Speaker 2 29:17

Okay, this is correct. No, this was only showing for five seconds, so we owe the client 10 seconds and it was just watching a lot of TV.

Speaker 1 29:29

How do you think that had an influence on you? Or did it have an influence? Or are you still? Oh my God, I'm so bored of TV, I just want to get out and play music.

Speaker 2 29:38

I wasn't even bothered because, to be honest, I was on my own all day. I had my office. I share it with another guy. This guy was in his 60s, something like that, and he didn't bother me at all. He was like, do whatever you want, just as long as you do the job, do whatever you want. So I had it for a year.

Speaker 1 30:03

Was that another one of those jobs, a bit like when you're at school, at the thing where you could almost go right. Well, I've done that, yeah, now I can free up my time to do whatever else I want? Exactly, it was a means to an end, exactly For free time music, skateboarding, yeah. Enjoying your life, yeah.

Speaker 2 30:21

But the result of watching all these hours of TV is that I used to watch a show, a cook named Carlos Arguiñano, a Spanish guy, and he had a TV show for Argentina, and I had to watch his show every day and after, of course, a year, I said wow, I think I'm very interested in culinary stuff. Maybe I can do it.

Speaker 1 30:46

So I went to culinary school, but you've always had that sort of attitude going. I can do that or I'll make it happen from that hardcore attitude.

Culinary School and Advertising Studies

Speaker 2 30:56

Exactly Not in an arrogant way. I always knew I was never going to be that good, but I always say maybe I can do it like with my style and my approach and but I really like it.

Speaker 1 31:11

I think I'm gonna enjoy this I think I'm gonna enjoy, and is that how you felt about cooking and culinary? Yeah, you think you're gonna enjoy it, so go ahead, let's do it, let's do it okay, so how did that? What do you do? You go to culinary school.

Speaker 2 31:25

I went to culinary school Again back in the day. It was a very weird thing to do. Why weird? Because I remember some friends saying, hey, man, cooking, that's for women. You know, oh, wow, really, yeah, this is probably 25 years ago. These chefs wearing all white shirts and hats and everything, it didn't exist.

Speaker 2 31:54

This guy, this show, brought it to Argentina. You know, basically he had his own style, this guy, but that inspired you, that inspired me a lot, because he kept it simple. He said you can be a chef. He encouraged people to do it. I'm going to teach you how to cook with the things that you have in your fridge, not buying this filet, you know, this special filet or this special thing. It was very simple and I felt very attracted to it and say, yeah, I'm going to give it a go. So I went to culinary school and I did pretty well. I was working for hotels and restaurants In Buenos Aires, in Buenos Aires, yeah, yeah, I was working for the top hotel in Buenos Aires and I was working for a very, very good restaurant as well in in Buenos Aires. But back then it started this thing about the discipline of the kitchen.

Speaker 1 32:56

I see like the head chef was a bossy militant, as we would probably see the Gordon.

Speaker 2 33:01

Ramsay character the cliche Exactly.

Speaker 1 33:02

Cliche. Yeah, exactly the cliche. How did that?

Speaker 2 33:03

sit with. Yeah, exactly, Exactly the cliche.

Speaker 1 33:05

How did that sit with your rebellious hardcore nature?

Speaker 2 33:08

someone shouting at you Very badly, very badly.

Speaker 1 33:12

So did that militant nature of the head chef put you off working in kitchens?

Speaker 2 33:17

Yeah, yeah. So I remember I said, okay, the only way to get out of this. I know I don't want to work in a kitchen, I don't want to be a chef, but I love to have a restaurant or something like that. So maybe I can learn more skills like marketing skills or the business side of the thing, and maybe I can do something about it, because I already have all this expertise, know how to cook, but I don't like this kitchen environment. I don't like this macho thing about who has the biggest knife in the kitchen. You know I didn't like that.

Speaker 2 34:00

So what did you do? So I said, okay, maybe I'm going to go to university and let's see how would they do it in Europe. Let's see how they do it. So I spoke to a guy who I knew, who was studying in France, and he told me yeah, you need to study this and this marketing admin and this and that. So I said, okay, I will have to go to university admin and this and that. So I said, okay, I will have to go to university. And it turns out that the only thing that was matching the studies in Europe was advertising. So I studied advertising for four years and I finished college there, but, you know, never expecting to work in advertising, just I said okay, even while you're doing the advertising course, you were still of the mentality for four years.

Speaker 1 34:50

you were still of the mentality that I'm going to use this skill to have a restaurant. When did that change?

Speaker 2 34:57

Well, a year before finishing college, I went to Barcelona One of my sisters was living there and I said wow, I want to come here, I want to live here. In college I went to Barcelona. One of my sisters was living there and I said wow, I want to come here, I want to live here in Barcelona.

Speaker 1 35:09

What was it about Barcelona that you found different to Buenos Aires? It was relaxed.

Speaker 2 35:16

Buenos Aires is not relaxed at all. You always have to be on your guard, exactly.

Speaker 1 35:23

Growing up in Buenos Aires, you have to be quite street savvy. Right Street smart, yeah, yeah. And Barcelona what could just go? Oh, this is just amazing, but relaxing.

Speaker 2 35:35

Relaxing. Well, from what I've heard, nowadays Barcelona it's quite difficult as well. It's not the Barcelona that I met 20 years ago. Back then it was very relaxed and for me it was my first time in Europe, my first time in Spain, and I said I want this, I want to come here, I'm going to get a job here, maybe as a chef. Let's see how it goes. So I went back to Argentina, finished my studies, got my diploma, went back to Barcelona. I was 25. I got there five days or a week after I arrived, I got a job in a British pub in the port of Barcelona the worst job ever in a kitchen. The kitchen was just filthy. The owners were very strange. They didn't care that it was just making money for them. It wasn't a passion for them.

Speaker 1 36:36

No, it wasn't about putting out high quality food. No, it was like burgers, fish and chips.

Speaker 2 36:41

They worked for the British tourists.

Speaker 1 36:45

Yeah, it's like the Red Lion pub the best English breakfast in all of Barcelona Exactly.

Speaker 2 36:50

So it was you know Not very satisfying for your. Can you imagine from working in a hotel in Buenos Aires, a five-star, and this other restaurant with this guy was like top.

Speaker 1 36:59

And now you're putting chips in a fryer.

Speaker 2 37:01

Exactly Flipping burgers fish and chips.

Speaker 1 37:05

But what was Barcelona like outside of work for you? Were you still playing music?

Speaker 2 37:09

Again, not music. I took my guitar with me. I was still playing, just for myself. You know, I rented a room in Barrio Gótico when I had free time skateboarding because you had the museum there in Barcelona, and that was I remember. When I had free time skateboarding because you had the museum there in Barcelona, and that was I remember. When I got there, I used to watch these videos back in Buenos Aires about this spot.

Speaker 1 37:35

I know the spot very well. You know the spot very well, I mean every skateboarding every it's like the mecca.

Speaker 2 37:42

Yeah, you know skateboarding and I was living four blocks away from that, so I was just skateboarding, skateboarding, skateboarding and starting to build a sense of community again. Not really no, not really because I I had to work a lot these shifts because I was not only working for this pub, but I was also working for a hotel, a very good hotel called Arts. It's the best hotel in Barcelona. So I was working for the best hotel in Barcelona and the worst restaurant, exactly.

Speaker 2 38:17

Wow, because back then I remember I was like, okay, now I need to make money If I want to open a restaurant here, or maybe I'm going to make some money here, and then after I'm going to go back to Argentina, so I need money. So I was working all the time, all the time.

Speaker 2 38:37

Were you happy at this point I wouldn't say happy, but I was very determined to make some money. Maybe I'm going to go back, maybe I'm going to stay here, I don't know, but I know what I need to do now is make some money. Of course, that lasted six months, okay, and then what happened, boxy? I just said no, this again. I'm making same mistakes again. You know like no, I need to think.

Speaker 1 39:08

But why Did you realize that it wasn't giving you the fulfillment that you were hoping it was? Or was it just the same grind, day after day after day, a bit like when you were 14 going to that school? It just didn't feel.

Speaker 2 39:19

Exactly, and I remember I realized that if I had a restaurant, even though I was expecting to be in a different position and maybe become a manager and an owner, my life would be. Just waking up at 5 am, going to bed at 2 am.

Speaker 1 39:39

It's an incredibly unsocial job, isn't it?

Speaker 2 39:41

It's an incredibly unsocial job, isn't it? And it's all the problems that everyone wants to be, you know, the top dog, the head honcho, this power thing, and I realized, okay, this is going to be like this everywhere. This is a worldwide thing. It's going to be like this. And if I want to be common owner or a manager or whatever, basically my life is gonna be like that yeah so I started to realize I have to change something really, maybe I should start looking for something new?

Speaker 1 40:22

and what did that look like for you? Because I mean that I think that hardcore attitude that you said of going well, fuck it, I've done that, but I can make something else happen now and that pursuit of, like we said, the things that make you happy you're not going to sit in a situation that makes you unhappy.

Speaker 2 40:37

No, no, no, no. At that point I wasn't happy. I remember the last month in Barcelona. Everything just collapsed.

Speaker 1 40:46

I wasn't happy. So when you say it collapsed, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 40:50

I said what's the point of this? Me making money? What for? To have a restaurant, something that I don't even really like to have? So what's the point? What am I doing here? Should I go back?

Speaker 1 41:04

Did that leave you flat or did that leave you excited about the next prospect?

Speaker 2 41:11

remember I said look, I don't know what's gonna happen, but in case I have to go back to buenos aires, I'm gonna travel a little bit before doing that so again, going back to that, you, you're going to get some enjoyment.

Speaker 2 41:27

Remember I was working for six months, two jobs. I had some savings so I said I'm going to go travel for a bit. So I went to the Basque country and I went to Portugal for, say, a month. Suddenly I realized that the savings that I had weren't enough, because I was running out of money after a month traveling. Yeah, I imagine that I think I was pretty naive back then because I thought, yeah, I have all this money, let's travel, you know, let's go traveling.

Speaker 2 42:03

But after a month it doesn't get you as far as you think so I remember at one point I had something ridiculous like 60 euros left in my bank account, something like that. And where were you at this point?

Speaker 1 42:16

portugal.

Speaker 2 42:17

Lisbon, oh, lisbon in portugal in portugal so I remember I said, okay, what can do? And I was traveling with two Australian guys, nick and Nathan, that I had met back in Barcelona. At some point we ran out of money, the three of us. So they said, maybe, instead of going back to Barcelona, we're going to go to the UK, because it's a very easy way to make some money. You just get there, you get a job doing whatever. And I said, ok, where can I go?

Speaker 2 42:54

And I remember I met this guy from Belfast. Basically, I saved his ass because he got attacked in Barcelona one night and he was bleeding on the street. So I took him home and I said, look, man, you can stay here, take your time. Because they took his passport, all his money. But he was a very good musician. He was busking in Barcelona oh wow, with his guitar, luckily for him, when he got attacked, got mugged, they took everything, but they didn't take his guitar because he left his guitar at the hostel. So I invited this guy to my house and he stayed there for a few months. Basically we became friends and I said, yeah, maybe I'm going to give this guy a call.

Speaker 1 43:45

And he's in Belfast.

Speaker 2 43:47

Yeah, he's in Belfast. I didn't know anything about Belfast. I was very ignorant, again, very naive, so I remember I called him. I said look, would you mind if I come stay with you for a while? He said no problem, come when. For a while he said no problem, come. When are you coming? I said probably tomorrow. There's a cheap flight. So I went there.

Speaker 1 44:13

What were your impressions of Belfast when you?

Speaker 2 44:15

arrived. I got there on the very same night that the IRA gave up their guns. They handled their guns, so there were riots on the street, cars burning.

Speaker 1 44:32

Welcome to Belfast. Wow, what an introduction to Northern Irish life To be honest, I wasn't really afraid because I'm from Buenos Aires.

Speaker 2 44:40

You know it's tough there as well. But I said what's this? I was very ignorant about the conflict. I was very ignorant about the conflict. I remember I was wearing, I had, a green cardigan. So when I got there, my friend took me to a pub. So I got in the pub and everyone started cheering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said wow, these are very friendly people, you know. My friend told me no, no man, it's about the color of your jumper. Just don't wear any green or orange here.

Speaker 2 45:20

Just don't do it, because some people are going to be glad that you're wearing it.

Speaker 1 45:24

You're putting aside exactly. So don't do it, because some people are going to be glad that you're wearing it. You're picking a side, exactly.

Speaker 2 45:26

So don't do it, Especially you being from Argentina. About you know the fog lands, the conflict, A lot of people Fresh, Exactly Still fresh. So don't do it. So I spent a few months there living in Belfast, Got a job in the Apollo call center. So call center, so completely different Call center life working for BT trying to win customers. How was that Horrible I can imagine Horrible. The lowest point in my life.

Speaker 1 46:07

It was just horrible From someone who's had quite the pursuit of things you enjoy. To be working in a call center in Belfast doesn't sound hugely fun.

Speaker 2 46:16

Yeah, it wasn't just a call center, it was the call center. I think it's the biggest call center in UK or probably Europe. It's like the matrix. Really, it didn't end. It was just people on the screen calling like thousands of people. It was a factory, yeah.

Speaker 1 46:38

The complete opposite of what you've strived for. Like you say, you don't want to be in those.

Speaker 2 46:42

That was my again my lowest point. I said okay.

Speaker 1 46:47

But again, a resilience where you needs must. I'm in a different country, I don't know what the situation is. I had to do it. I got to earn money.

Speaker 2 46:52

I had to do it. I remember I rented the cheapest room in Belfast. You can imagine how that was. It was depressing the most depressing thing that I've, and it was just depressing a depressing life, and it lasted six months and it felt like 60 years.

Speaker 1 47:16

Really, really. So what was the catalyst that made you get out of that situation? Just pure unhappiness.

Speaker 2 47:21

Pure unhappiness. Again, I was in an environment that I knew, this guy, pavel, who was a very good friend, and I made friends with his friends.

Speaker 1 47:33

He was a musician. Was there any music at this point?

Speaker 2 47:36

Not at all, not at all Just.

Speaker 1 47:38

I didn't.

Speaker 2 47:39

I didn't even bring my guitar with me. I left it with my sister in Barcelona. I just had a backpack with a sleeping bag and nothing else. Wow, and 200 CDs. I took my cds with me, my cd player, so I was still listening to a lot of music did music help you get through that depressing time in belfast, like filling your time I remember the soundtrack of my belfast period was Joy Division, because I remember I knew, wow, okay, now I know why these guys are making this music.

Speaker 2 48:20

Now I understand. One thing is listening to it in Buenos Aires and you say, wow, this music, why did they use this compression or this distortion? And then you are living there in this. Of course, belfast is not Manchester, but you have this. It's the same environment, basically Rainy Gray, gray, gloomy. Sorry, people in Belfast, I don't want to call your city depressing, but even friends there, like were saying to me what are you doing here? What exactly are you doing here? Because we have to be here. You're from buenos aires, you were living what you're doing here, man? But again I was broke. I had to make some money to get out of there, so that took me six months of working working in the call center.

Speaker 2 49:11

Of working in the call center and I didn't know what to do. I said, okay, maybe I'm going to go back to Buenos Aires. I know I've lost. So this is me admitting that Belfast has defeated you Exactly. Belfast is one city that I really respect. In that way, it really broke me down. It's like humbling.

Speaker 1 49:37

So what's next after Belfast? Belfast has beaten you, so what was the decision?

Speaker 2 49:42

Belfast was beating the hell out of me, not just beating me. I don't even know what to do now, because I know I don't want to work in a kitchen, I don't think I want to go back to Argentina, but I was absolutely lost. Difficult time for you then. Very difficult time. I was probably 26. And at this point I was like okay, I don't even have money to go back to Argentina, so where would I be starting from, like I don't even have anything. When I left Barcelona, I just got rid of everything. I just kept my CDs with me, and the backpack and my guitar was there back in Barcelona with my sister. That's all I had at this point.

Speaker 1 50:31

So that was the only thing you were bothered about keeping just your music, your guitar, and then everything else.

Speaker 2 50:36

When I decided to travel, I said okay, there's no looking back, so get rid of everything. So at this point I was questioning my decisions. I said, man, I think you really messed up. So what are you going to do now? My friend in Belfast told me I think you should go to Granada. I remember exactly the moment.

Speaker 1 51:00

He told me? Did he give you a reason though?

Speaker 2 51:03

He told me this story. I met a girl in Granada. I was busking the street of Granada because you're allowed to busk there, so I was playing, and I met this girlada because you're allowed to bus there, so I was playing and I met this girl and she took me to a water spring and everything was magical and it was the best day in my life and it really sold you the dream she really sold me the dream, and it wasn't about the girl, it was about the music.

Speaker 2 51:26

He told me everything there's very cheap, it's very affordable and the food is great, and he was telling me that was the best thing in my life. He told me he said there are some cheap flights from here. You should go. So I checked the flights and yeah, back then it was 10 euros. Wow, you know something. I said okay, yeah, let's give it a go. I said goodbye to Belfast and went to Granada.

Belfast Struggles and Granada's Cave Life

Speaker 1 51:55

So you found yourself in Granada on the recommendation of your friend in Belfast. He describes it as idyllic water springs and music on every street corner and beautiful, cheap food. Did you find that? I mean, the contrast from Belfast, I'm sure is going to be huge, but was it as idyllic as he said? 180 degrees, really.

Speaker 2 52:17

It was exactly the opposite of Belfast. When I got to Granada, it started very complicated because I was staying in a hostel in exchange for me doing beds, and you know helping out.

Speaker 2 52:34

You did little bits of work for the hostel, so I contacted them and said yeah sure, don't worry, you can come anytime, you will work for us, we'll give you free stay, basically. But it got quite complicated at some point because from Belfast I didn't go to Granada, I went back to Barcelona to pick up my guitar, so I got stuck there for a week because I haven't seen my sister in a few months. So I spent some time with her.

Speaker 2 53:04

I sent an email saying to the host look, instead of being there on next Monday, I'm going to be there in 10 days, something like that. And they didn't reply. So I said, well, okay, I'll just go there. And finally I got there to Granada, went to the hostel and they told me look, man, we haven't heard from you. We didn't receive that email that you're saying that you send us. There's nothing we can do about it like.

Speaker 2 53:32

So the job wasn't available anymore. Not not only job, not even the bed was available. So what did you do? So I was there in the street and I met this lady and she told me what you're doing here. And I was there with a friend as well, and she told us look, do you have a place to stay? I said no, basically we fucked up. So what now? We don't know how, what we're gonna do, because we didn't have much money. Neither she told us I have a cave, so you can come to my cave. It has like four bedrooms there and you look like good people, and this was night time already.

Speaker 1 54:18

So a lady you've just met has told you that she's got a cave that you can serve. And here we come back to the first question.

Speaker 2 54:23

Because we were in the cathedral and there were some people busking. They were playing music, so we were just listening to music there and this lady approached us and said where are you from? We're from Buenos Aires, but we got this problem. And she said okay, you want to come to my cave?

Speaker 1 54:42

What did you think when she said I've got a cave, she's crazy.

Speaker 2 54:47

Cave, what do you mean? A cave, so. But at this point we didn't, I didn't have an option, you know.

Speaker 1 54:57

So you took the lady up on her offer of going to a cave in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2 55:01

Let's go.

Speaker 1 55:03

So what's the cave like when you arrive?

Speaker 2 55:06

To get to the cave you had to walk through the Albicene Quarter, and the streets there are very, very narrow and stone. It's like a labyrinth, you know. So she took us through the albicene and we finally got to this place called sacromonte, which are like mountains, and suddenly, suddenly, you know, we were crossing a stream. I remember my feet being all wet. I said, look, man again, you know, this is not going well, probably we're going to get mugged. What were we thinking? So we finally got to the middle of nowhere, because there was no electricity, no lights there, basically there was pitch black. And suddenly she opens the door on the mountain. When she opens the door, there was this magnificent cave, all white inside, with candles, like a hobbit house.

Speaker 2 56:12

I was like what the hell is that? And she explained to us. You know, some friends of mine are staying here, but they went back to Chile and they asked me to take care of the cave. So, yeah, I have four bedrooms and I really don't want to be on my own here. I can tell you're good people so you can stay here and we can protect each other.

Speaker 1 56:35

So this takes us to you living in a cave, Boxy yeah.

Speaker 2 56:38

So I was living in a cave for a few months.

Speaker 1 56:42

And what's life like in Granada for you? Because music now becomes much more of a thing.

Speaker 2 56:48

Right, it's much more of a thing right. So the first few weeks I was in shock, from Belfast to Granada. This was an absolute shock for me.

Speaker 1 57:01

Like you say, a 180-degree difference. A hundred and eighty. How are you spending your days?

Speaker 2 57:08

Waking up in the cave there was a spring there that you can get some water from the mountains, filling the bottles, making some tea and then going back to the city and just wandering around by absorbing everything was there was musicians busking playing on the streets everywhere, everywhere, all the time. It was quite famous for music. It was quite famous I didn't again very ignorant about it. I didn't know. Even Joe Strummer from the Clash was living there. His dream was having a hardware store in Granada.

Speaker 1 57:53

It's a mad dream, isn't it For someone like Joe Strummer?

Speaker 2 57:55

Yeah, but he was living there.

Speaker 1 57:58

So music was just, you were surrounded.

Speaker 2 58:00

Music was everywhere and it was like it was a dream.

Speaker 1 58:40

Were you slowly getting that creative element back the music? Because you said after being in Belfast, you were probably quite depressed?

Speaker 2 58:48

Quite depressed. I think I was absorbing and learning, because these musicians were mostly acoustic musicians. This wasn't about distortion, this was about skills. Granada, it was pretty famous because to live there was very cheap. Food there was very cheap. With every drink that you had in a bar, you got a free tapa and the tapa was a big tapa. So if you had, let's say, two beers for two euros, not only you had two beers, but you can only have a lunch or dinner.

Speaker 1 59:28

The tapas feeds you with the two beers, all it takes was four euros a day to survive.

Speaker 2 59:35

Can you imagine?

Speaker 1 59:36

It was crazy it was crazy.

Speaker 2 59:39

So I was still in shock, like the word that we should have in mind is shock being in shock, everything was different. The musicians were acoustic musicians and they were busking on the street because they were learning from each other. Let's say, a sitar player was playing with a didgeridoo player and a darbuka player, and then the darbuka player was playing with the Cajon player, and they were people very interested in learning different styles of music.

Speaker 1 1:00:18

So all of these buskers and musicians were getting different inputs from each other's skills and learning and evolving and creating together again.

Speaker 2 1:00:26

And the way to survive was busking, because all you needed was a room. Back then I remember it was not even 100 euros for a room a month and then you needed four euros a day to survive. So if you busk there, you get very decent money from busking. Yeah, because Granada it was a very touristic city. Nowadays it's gentrified and everything it's very different, very different, but back then it was like the perfect combination of tourists and people living there. It was like the right ingredients. Yeah, nowadays it's different. So for me, not only was the shock of the city and the caves and everything was these musicians, these acoustic musicians that they are, really want to develop their techniques and their knowledge, and it was about learning really.

Speaker 1 1:01:30

Did that rub off on you in the sense that, okay, maybe I need to expand my three chord repertoire Exactly?

Speaker 2 1:01:37

Totally, totally, totally. I said wow, it's not only about rock or hardcore, because at this time I wasn't only listening to hardcore. You know, I listened to a lot of rock and electronic music, every type of music, but this new thing, acoustic music, or some people they call it world music, for me it was different.

Speaker 1 1:02:03

You know New experience, new experience, hearing sitars and, as you say, sitars and aneis, the flute.

Speaker 2 1:02:11

There were a lot of Sufis living there, so Sufi music, flamenco music everyone was bringing their music from their countries to Granada. So a lot of Balkan music and gypsy jazz Manouche style guitar players, and to me it was all new. I didn't even know this music.

Speaker 1 1:02:41

So, culturally, you're hearing all these new sounds, these instruments, these things of what music can be.

Speaker 2 1:02:47

And all the possibilities and learning from another people.

Speaker 1 1:02:51

And were you actively with your guitar, trying to learn different things?

Speaker 2 1:02:55

No, not with my guitar. I said no, no, no. Again, I know my limitations, you know, but I remember I said this instrument that I saw in Barcelona, this instrument called hang. It was like percussion with melody, like a steel drum, an inverted steel drum Inverted steel drum.

Speaker 1 1:03:15

People would probably know them now as a handpan. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:03:18

And I said very interesting, I'll give it a go. So I got one of those. Yeah, it all started there. I started playing hang.

Speaker 1 1:03:27

Nowadays it's called handpan, but but your mission to get one of those was quite an exciting one, wasn't it? Yeah, it was again another little adventure. Yeah, it was an adventure again.

Speaker 2 1:03:40

I was very lucky because I remember I called the makers. The makers were a couple that live in Switzerland. They invented the instrument in the year 2000. I got the instrument in 2005, but for the first five years they just produced a few instruments a year. Maybe 100 years, so there were 500 instruments in the world. I called them and said I love your instrument, can I buy one? Yeah, but we don't ship anymore because they got damaged. So you have to come to Switzerland. It's the only way.

Speaker 1 1:04:18

So how does that work when you're in Granada living off four euros a day?

Speaker 2 1:04:24

I made my maths and I said look, I have. My savings were like 1,200 euros that I saved from Belfast.

Speaker 1 1:04:35

So and how much was one of these instruments at the time? 500. So instantly, you take 500 off. That yeah.

Speaker 2 1:04:43

And I said, okay, let's go 700 euros, let's go to Switzerland. And how did you get?

Speaker 2 1:04:48

I took the bus because it was the cheapest way to get there. I think it was 80 euros to get to Bern and 80 euros back. But when I got to Switzerland, I decided I wanted two of those instruments in different scales. One was an Arabic scale and the other one was a D minor scale. So I said can you sell two for me? And said we don't usually do it, but since you're coming from Spain, yeah, okay. So I got two of them, but I ended up with less than 100 euros, so you're not getting back to it, I'm not getting back.

Speaker 2 1:05:29

I didn't have enough money to get back to Granada. So I called my sister in Barcelona and said do you know anyone living in Paris? Because I'm in Switzerland, I always want to go to Paris. And she said yeah, I have a friend there. You can go to her house. And so my sister sent an email to her saying look, my brother is in Switzerland. Basically he's standing there. Can he come to your house and work, because he's got this instrument? He's going to busk, there he's going to make some money and then go back to Granada. So that's what I did. I went to her house, spent 10 days there. She told me look, I spend most of the time with my boyfriend his house, so take this apartment, you can stay here. I said yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 1:06:21

Wow.

Speaker 2 1:06:21

Do it. Here are the keys Brilliant An apartment in Paris.

Speaker 1 1:06:26

And at this point had you had much experience. You've only just bought these instruments.

Speaker 2 1:06:30

I just bought it. I tried it before because a guy that I knew had one. Oh, I see you had had it. So I had a go at it. You know, I had a little go and said, yeah, I think I can. It's difficult but I think I can try.

Speaker 1 1:06:45

So basically I spent all my learning was in Paris, in France just on the street, you know playing, but they make an absolutely beautiful sound, don't they, these handpans? And it's quite hypnotic. I remember I was on a job in Europe and I heard this sound, and I think I was in Vienna or something like that, and I walked around this corner and there was these two guys playing them and I was mesmerized, stunning.

Speaker 2 1:07:13

That's what everyone feels the first time they see a handpan and they hear a handpan. Nowadays it's more people they've seen it Well.

Speaker 1 1:07:24

We've had 20 years of the instrument growing 25 years.

Speaker 2 1:07:29

So now it's just an instrument.

Speaker 1 1:07:32

But when you were busking on the streets of Paris, were you getting that reaction? Wow, what is that?

Speaker 2 1:07:37

sound. Wow, what's that sound? What is it? Where's the amplifier? There's no amplifier. It's acoustic. What do you mean it's acoustic? Where's the trick? Because it's what do you mean? It's acoustic? What's the trick? Because it's a steel drum, but it's not the sound of a steel drum. Steel drum is more loud. Yeah, it's much softer. This works with. Harmonics works differently.

Speaker 1 1:08:01

Yeah, it's a beautiful instrument. Presumably that sound, that novelty of that new, new sound, and you learning on the streets, you weren't enough to get yourself some money to I remember it only took a week to get the money to go back to spain.

Speaker 2 1:08:18

Wow. So I say, okay, I think this is gonna work out for me. Yeah, let's do it. Let's go back to granada. So I started a new life, you know, with the hung busking mornings and afternoons and meeting a lot of people. Everyone wanted to play with me not with me with the instrument, of course, because I always knew that it wasn't about the music that I was creating.

Speaker 1 1:08:46

Really, it was more about the instrument.

Speaker 2 1:08:49

The instrument was the attraction.

Speaker 1 1:08:52

The attraction sound it was a very powerful thing back then but you'd spotted that early on and gone to all that effort. I spotted that.

Speaker 2 1:09:00

I spotted that exactly. But can you imagine like if I play the guitar, no one of these guys would like to play with me? They would say go home, learn some chords, go back in a few years and we'll play together. Yeah, but with this instrument was like a key to play with the best musicians, because everyone wanted to play with the instrument and presumably wanted to hear the sound of their instrument alongside the handpan or the hum.

Speaker 2 1:09:32

Not only that, they were intrigued. It was a new thing, this thing came from out of nowhere and the whole story behind the instrument. These people in Switzerland only two people make them in the world when they ask for instrument. These people in Switzerland only two people make them in the world when they ask for instrument. They ask you this question about what do you want our instrument? What are you going to do with it? What are your intentions? What are your intentions? So when I got the instrument soon after that, the waiting list went to five years.

Speaker 2 1:10:05

If you wanted to buy one, you had to wait five years. For me it was just in time, because the first generation of hangs it was more like a steel drum, and the second generations the one I got, I was one of the first of having the second generation that it was more the sound was more defined and more harmonic. They introduced this term, they call it. It was a sound sculpture.

Speaker 1 1:10:37

A sound sculpture.

The Handpan Revolution: Musical Opportunities

Speaker 2 1:10:38

Okay, it wasn't an instrument. They didn't want musicians to play it Interesting, they want just regular people to have a go. And it was a new way to approach music. A few make music without being a musician. They weren't interested in selling the instrument to musicians. Like, they got all these letters from all the best percussionists in the world saying I want to hang, I'm going to have, please, and they just passed Wow, so it was a new approach. So for me, having that instrument, it really opened not many doors. All of them open not many doors, all of them. Because, again, if I was playing a guitar, no one would want to play with me, only the hardcore players, the outcasts, the outsiders.

Speaker 1 1:11:37

I understand that the instrument opened the doors, not necessarily your skill of playing that instrument.

Speaker 2 1:11:44

And obviously that will develop. Not my skill, of course not my skill, it was the instrument I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:11:47

Of course not my skill, it was the instrument I don't know about of course not your skill, because obviously you will develop that skill as the more you play. Yeah, but but that sound like you say, was such a novelty at the time.

Speaker 2 1:11:57

Matt, I played instrument for 20 years almost and I know back then it wasn't my skills, definitely. That's one thing I know 100% because I knew a lot of very good music. I was playing on the street and musicians in Granada they said, look, look, I'm having Enrique Morentes at the phone. Enrique Morentes was like a flamenco singer. He played experimental flamenco. He played with Sonic Youth. He's got an experimental album with Lagartija Nick called Omega the album. And this guy was like look, you have Enrique Morentes at the phone. He wants to record with you. For me it was like what, what's this?

Speaker 1 1:12:47

So these opportunities were coming up.

Speaker 2 1:12:49

Yeah, I was playing onada and I met a producer from Belgium, a very, very good musician called Quantando Chardin, and he said look, if you ever come to Belgium, just give me a call. I have a studio, we can make something. I said not, if ever, when, when is it good for you? Two weeks so I went to Belgium, recorded an album with them and next year another album. We toured Belgium 40 gigs in a month, something crazy, playing in these jazz clubs Me playing with jazz musicians. You know, we had a band with a trumpet player.

Speaker 1 1:13:36

You've come a long way from your three chords very fast with the distortion, the trumpet player was from the school.

Speaker 2 1:13:42

His teacher was playing with Chet Baker, so Chet Baker was one of my idols.

Speaker 1 1:13:49

So when you say that this instrument opened doors, it really did open doors, really, really. Wow, it really really did. So how many albums have you?

Speaker 2 1:13:57

worked on. I recorded two albums in Belgium and then I had another band in ibiza in spain for the summer to play in clubs. It was hung and electronic music oh nice with a french guy and a dj. We do play it from india. Yeah, the openings, yeah the opening opening parties.

Speaker 2 1:14:21

In our opening parties, they just hire us to play 10 minutes, which we're gonna open the doors and you're going to be playing there until the DJ starts. So it's 10 minutes. When we fill the room you are going to play there and we were playing the markets there. They were called the hippie markets.

Speaker 1 1:14:39

In Escanar In.

Speaker 2 1:14:40

Escanar, you know. So we were playing all the markets. I spent a few summers there in Ibiza playing.

Speaker 1 1:14:49

But it's this instrument which is obviously opening these doors. But it's now, when you're back in Granada. You're busking in the morning, you're busking in the evening, but then in the daytime. This is where you've got this free time developing, but you're so engrossed in the music that you need some form of escape, right.

Speaker 2 1:15:09

That's when Boxy Trixie was born.

Speaker 1 1:15:12

Talk to me about the Boxy Trixie name. Where does that come from?

Speaker 2 1:15:15

My dad used to call me Boxy Trixie when I was a kid, because he said I was a box full of tricks.

Speaker 1 1:15:22

I love that Boxy Trixie.

Speaker 2 1:15:24

Boxy Trixie.

Speaker 1 1:15:25

And that is kind of through your story. You are a box of tricks, a multiple box of tricks, yeah, but talk to me about that free time that you were developing and what you were doing and how Boxy developed.

Speaker 2 1:15:38

So I was working, busking with the hand. I was very disciplined about it. I don't know if it was the thing that nowadays people they call it the impostor syndrome.

Speaker 1 1:15:51

We talk about that a lot.

Speaker 2 1:15:53

As creatives artists impostor syndrome.

Speaker 2 1:15:55

Yeah, I don't know if it was about that, but again, I remember I said look, this is a huge opportunity because you can make your living out of music. If you would be playing another instrument you'd be starving to death. Being aware of that really kept me ground to earth. You know, like, yeah, your feet on the floor, exactly exactly because probably at some other point in my life I would say, just wow, now I'm a musician, I'm playing with jazz musicians and I'm a musician. I know I always kept myself my feet on the floor. I said look, there's a very good opportunity here. Now you have the chance to become what they call a musician and make your living.

Speaker 2 1:16:47

You didn't consider yourself a musician. No, I wasn't and I'm still. I they call a musician and make your living out of-. You didn't consider yourself a musician. No, I wasn't and I'm still. I'm not a musician. It takes a lot more to be a musician, but you'd found this discipline. I bet I had the discipline. I had one of the ingredients to be a musician. It wasn't talent. I had some talent, but it was very raw. But what I had was a lot of discipline.

Speaker 1 1:17:14

And consistency.

Speaker 2 1:17:15

And consistency, and I was very humble and said here's my opportunity and I'm going to give my best.

Speaker 1 1:17:24

And again, is that about you realizing the fact that, okay, I don't consider myself a musician, but I am making a living from doing something that I enjoy every day, so I'm going to make sure I can keep doing this.

Speaker 2 1:17:36

I was lucky. What I was feeling was like like I'm so lucky, I'm so lucky that I don't have to go back to kitchen work or call center work, or I'm just so lucky I can do this and people like it and I'm not.

Speaker 1 1:17:54

I'm gonna do you think it is luck because you saw out these opportunities and you were aware you heard this instrument. You're like, ooh, is that some foresight of? I think luck is. I struggle with luck because I think we make you've made decisions in your life that have got you to the point.

Speaker 2 1:18:11

But again, luck is a big factor in life. I think you can be disciplined, you can be talented, have a great technique. You know how many artists that I know that they are great in every way, great technique, great discipline, everything. But they have to do something else and they're not happy, they're always struggling. So luck, I think, is a big factor. Maybe luck is getting to realize and putting all the things together, to connect things and taking advantage of opportunities, but at the same time, luck is an ingredient. It's a huge ingredient. It's not about talent.

Speaker 1 1:19:03

But the discipline that this gave you, your realization that you had to be disciplined, and you treated it almost like a job. It was I busk in the morning, I busk in the evening. And then, in the interim, going back to what we say Boxy Trixie was born, because in the meantime I hadk in the evening. And then, in the interim, going back to what we say Boxy Trixie was born Because in the meantime I had to take some rest.

Speaker 2 1:19:23

Hung at the beginning it's very hard because you're banging metal with your hands. So for the first year your hands bleed, your hands hurt a lot, your back. You know it's a lot of pain. So you had to take some breaks.

Speaker 1 1:19:42

You needed that break for your body the thing. So what are you doing with that time that you're trying to rest and get away from that intense nature of playing the handpan, your hands bleeding the backache? This is where Boxy Trixie was born, as we've always discussed.

Becoming Boxy: Art and Street Expression

Speaker 2 1:19:56

Yeah, because in all my troubles I always kept a sketchbook with me just for doodling and scribbling. I always had one, it always relaxed me. So the rooms I rented in Granada we never had a TV, so you had to do something. We never had a TV, so you had to do something. My something was doing that just drawing, painting a little bit.

Speaker 1 1:20:24

What sort of stuff are you drawing and painting at this point? Do you remember Basically?

Speaker 2 1:20:29

the same that I'm painting, not far from the same that I'm doing here, just these figures.

Speaker 1 1:20:40

Is that an influence of, as we say, the living in the cave being surrounded by this quote-unquote world music? These different ethnicities influences? Yeah, it's not that mainstream. Everyone's talking about TV and pop culture. You're immersed in this more folky world, artisan sort of environment more folky world, artisan sort of environment.

Speaker 2 1:21:04

I always was attracted to just one image, one powerful image like a not human, but these figures, you know probably Does that go back to the skateboarding? That goes back to the skateboarding and a lot of. I remember when I was a kid my grandfather gave me these figurines from Tiwanaku in Bolivia.

Speaker 1 1:21:23

Okay, which are going to? If people look at your work, are going to have similarities.

Speaker 2 1:21:28

Yeah, I was around 12 when he gave me this. They were very precious for him, so I guess it was his way to say this.

Speaker 1 1:21:40

Passing this onto you this visual idea, these characters, this history, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:21:46

I guess I was the only one in the family who respected that and was attracted to this pottery and figurines.

Speaker 1 1:21:54

Ceramics and creativity almost.

Speaker 2 1:21:56

No one in the family. Everyone in the family was like what's this? Voodoo things, what are?

Speaker 1 1:22:01

they. You know what are they.

Speaker 2 1:22:03

Everyone's like do you want them? No, they are too scary. And I was like, yeah, I'll take them, I'll take them I love them.

Speaker 1 1:22:10

I mean, as I say, looking at your characters, they are very much that South American Aztec, yeah, how that South American Aztec, yeah, how would you describe them?

Speaker 2 1:22:20

I thought a lot about this. I like to think about them as power figures I think in Congo they have these figures as well Like a sort of spirit, animal spirit no, not really. It's an image that you can be devoted to and you can ask this image for favours and to accomplish things. Back in the day people had this they prayed to St Mary, oh specific saints within religions for certain things.

Speaker 1 1:22:54

Yeah, with an image, you know, with an image, Please St.

Speaker 2 1:22:56

Mary, do this for me, do that for me, help me in this way, but with these sorts of things.

Speaker 1 1:23:00

Would it have been more like we pray for rain, for the harvest, those sorts of more tribal gods?

Speaker 2 1:23:08

Yeah, but I'm not part of the tribe. I'm just creating my own world and what I would love to think is that people that have a piece of my work it works in that way for them. It's more like a totem.

Speaker 1 1:23:25

I see, yeah, like those original little statues from Bolivia.

Speaker 2 1:23:28

Yeah, like a power figure. The interesting thing about art, in my opinion, it's not about it matches your sofa, it's not a decorative thing, it's you're going to spend maybe your whole life surrounded by this piece and this piece is going to be with you through thick and thin. I would say you know the connection has to be there.

Speaker 2 1:23:53

And probably some point. You won't be in this world, but this will. It's something very powerful for me, but in a different way, that artists approach that they work as a precious thing, but in a more decorative way, and this is an art piece, and for me it's more about developing a relationship with the work, with the artwork. Again, that's a totemic.

Speaker 1 1:24:27

Yeah, you hope that the viewer connects with whatever character is that you're, you're creating.

Speaker 2 1:24:33

Yeah, so was this just a flow state thing just to distract your mind when you were sketching between busking sessions of at the beginning of the cities, because me, coming from Buenos Aires to Europe, was like, wow, everything's new, let's take a picture of the city. But soon after I realized I was taking pictures of the graffitis and the street art instead of the buildings and the monuments. I was taking pictures of those things.

Speaker 1 1:25:15

So again, those early influences of street art as an expectator.

Speaker 2 1:25:21

I was just taking pictures of it when I got to Granada. Granada was famous not only for music but for street art because it was allowed. It was legal. As long as the owner agreed for you to paint on his wall and there was no conflict, you were allowed to do it.

Speaker 1 1:25:46

So you were getting these inputs and influences from all over from all over.

Speaker 2 1:25:50

I was hanging out not only with musicians, but at some point I met a guy called Ocean and he had this tag this figure everywhere in Granada, everywhere. And one night we were having a music jam in my house and some guy told me Ocean is coming because he's a rapper as well, and I invited him to the jam. I said, yeah, great. So I met this guy and he had a look at my sketchbook and he told me wow, this is great. Did you think about doing this on the street? I said, yeah, I've been doing it for the last past year. I've been pasting these very small paste-ups, you know, from the sketchbook.

Speaker 1 1:26:35

I used to.

Speaker 2 1:26:36

Yeah, oh, oh, you ripped it out yeah, I ripped it out and just paste them. And he told me oh yeah, yeah, I've seen your work, but maybe you should paint or do some like bigger paste apps. And he invited me to paint a mural and it was my first mural, so he really encouraged me to do it and from that day I never stopped doing it. Yeah, it was again from zero to a hundred in one day.

Speaker 1 1:27:03

You know, that's everything I do and were you still balancing the music and the art at the same time?

Speaker 2 1:27:08

yeah, yeah, still playing every day really pursuing those things that you love well, I stopped playing probably five years ago. I, I mean, I still play, but a couple of times in the week and it's not a professional thing anymore. But for more than 15 years I was playing every day of my life.

Speaker 1 1:27:31

Wow, non-stop, and then drawing, and then drawing.

Speaker 2 1:27:34

And then drawing and doing paste-ups, but at some point the music stopped.

Speaker 1 1:27:42

Why? Just because you felt more passion for the art now.

Speaker 2 1:27:46

Yeah, yeah, I think painting it's something that I can. If I have the time, I can do it all the time. It will be non-stop. And for music maybe me having those limitations, being a limited musician, not having the theory or whatever you want to call it I can play for a few hours a day, but not all day because I'm limited.

Speaker 1 1:28:15

I get bored. Does it then feel like that repetitive thing of because I only know this on the hung, this is what I can do, and then it stops?

Speaker 2 1:28:24

Whereas this is what I can do, and I think, if you want to take it to a different level, that when you have to develop your technique and I'm not interested in that. I tried to study it a couple of times percussion to become a better hand player but it just didn't feel right.

Speaker 1 1:28:46

It didn't hit those levels.

Speaker 2 1:28:48

No, I only wanted to play what I wanted to play, like the way I did it, but I didn't want to develop the technique. Did it, but I didn't want to develop the technique. I guess I always knew at some point this is going to end up killing me, because I'm my worst enemy. At the same time not wanting to develop your technique, you're going to get reached to a point where that's it. You won't be able to grow, so you're going to have to decide whether to quit or keep going. If you want to keep going, you'll have to learn more.

Speaker 1 1:29:22

But I wasn't really interested and it feels like the art was something where you could grow, you could expand.

Speaker 2 1:29:29

It was only limited by your imagination, presumably yeah, yeah, but not in the way that I'm developing my technique. It just comes, you know, all the time. With music it's different. It doesn't come all the time. My brain is not thinking in terms of wow, I have this song in my head.

Speaker 1 1:29:49

No, but does it in terms of the art? Yeah, so it feels much more pure that it's just like I just let myself.

Speaker 2 1:29:57

That's why I quit music because it became a job and I got bored.

Speaker 1 1:30:04

So how do we get from Spain to England?

Speaker 2 1:30:09

After busking and playing all around Europe for 15 years, I went back to Argentina and I met my partner there. She's from Birmingham and at some point we just wanted to leave the country again. There was a lot of problems there. What was she doing there? Just a tourist, or was she working? No, she was working. She was an English teacher, okay, but so we decided to go At this time again.

Speaker 2 1:30:39

I was part of a group called BA Paystab in Buenos Aires. When I got there, I started doing paystabs on the street, the same things I was doing in my travels and in Spain. There were a few people involved in the paystab scene, but then probably 10 people 10 years ago, exactly 10 years ago, ba Paystab it's turning 10 years. Wow, in 2025. So we realized, wow, maybe we can do something. You know, because the paystab, you go, you do a paystab and after that it's like a conversation that starts growing another paste apart. It comes and it puts another paste up next to you and another one and comes another one and you create eventually a mural.

Speaker 2 1:31:31

So, with these guys, we are five in the group. We said, look, why don't we make a group instead of doing this thing separately? We can get together and make a group a community a community. But this turned out to be the first paystab group in in the world. Let's say wow. So we created ba paystab and that was a hit. So we created the group and a month after, we were already doing commissions. Wow, and they were calling us for festivals. And can you do a mural for our Lollapalooza festival? Yeah, so we started not only doing it on the street, but doing commissions.

Speaker 1 1:32:20

So once again, your passion was paying away without even making a plan of that, really.

Speaker 2 1:32:27

No, this time with BA Paystab. I must admit that it was very well planned.

Speaker 1 1:32:32

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 1:32:33

Because when we met with the rest of the team four other members of the team we noticed that we were very different personalities, but we took our thing very seriously. It wasn't about a hobby. We really wanted to make something different and take paste up to a different level.

Speaker 1 1:33:00

That hardcore attitude taken into paste up.

Speaker 2 1:33:03

As soon as we met each other, we said look, why don't we start doing like big murals instead of paste up here and there and let's make big murals with a lot of paper? We are five, okay, so you bring your stuff, I'll bring my stuff. And that had a real impact. You know, we were in the front cover of the magazines and this is where the selfies started, so everyone was like taking selfies of them.

Speaker 1 1:33:33

Against the murals. Against the murals.

Speaker 2 1:33:36

Everything just started there from again. In the month time we were, everyone was asking can you make a?

Speaker 1 1:33:44

mural, so similar to you, and the handpan.

Speaker 2 1:33:47

Again you found the novelty but I think this time I knew what I was doing with the handpan was more like ok, I'll give it a go, but I know I'm still learning and with paystab I had already been doing it for 10 years before being part of BA paystab. So I've been doing paystab for 20 years now.

Speaker 1 1:34:12

So when you and your partner decide to move away from BA, how does that affect the group? How does that affect the dynamic?

Speaker 2 1:34:22

It affected in a way that of course I'm not there to make the murals with them. But the good thing about paystubs it's paper. You can send them in the post. So they send their stuff here and I send my stuff there.

Speaker 1 1:34:36

So yeah, like an art exchange across the world.

Speaker 2 1:34:38

An art exchange but I'm still part of the BA paystab and BA paystab it's part of. Birmingham paystab.

Speaker 1 1:34:48

So how long was it when you got to the UK that you started doing paystubs?

Speaker 2 1:34:53

here. I started at the same time I got here.

Speaker 1 1:34:57

Amazing.

Speaker 2 1:34:58

It never stopped, never, never stopped and now how many?

Speaker 1 1:35:02

cities across the world. Do you think you've got your paystubs in? I don't know, because this exchange works with lots of other groups.

Speaker 2 1:35:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, but a lot which is amazing. Nowadays you have festivals as well paystub festivals and different things but it never stopped. When I got here, it was just a branch of BA Paystub in Birmingham.

Speaker 1 1:35:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:35:27

I have bags of paper from the rest of the BA Paystub members and the last time I went to Argentina I brought 15 kilos of paper, Really so again, but just something you just love doing.

Speaker 1 1:35:43

I love it. I love it, which I think is kind of the. I think people will cotton on to the fact that that's what it is, and I'm sure I've said it before your life, boxy, seems to have been a pursuit of happiness, a pursuit of things that bring you joy. It's not commercial gain, it doesn't matter about any of that, it's just about joy. But the interesting thing for me is, even after hearing your story, you still don't consider yourself an artist, a musician. You wouldn't put yourself into one of those boxes.

Speaker 2 1:36:20

Sorry, excuse the pun. A box.

Speaker 1 1:36:22

I just realized what I did there.

Speaker 2 1:36:24

No, no, I think that's not my job to do that, to put that label. I don't mind to be considered an artist, but I won't be the one saying it. How do you see yourself, then? An enthusiast?

Speaker 1 1:36:41

of life, an enthusiast of anything that makes you happy yeah, not many things make me happy, not many things say more no, that's true.

Speaker 2 1:36:59

It's not like I consider myself a happy person, but not many things make me happy, no, okay.

Speaker 1 1:37:06

What are the things that make you truly happy being?

Speaker 2 1:37:09

with my family, with my partner and my son, cooking at home not as a job listening to music, painting, painting, doing pay stubs, and I think that's pretty much it so really you fill your life with only the things that make you?

Speaker 1 1:37:29

yeah, but that's that's my life.

Speaker 2 1:37:31

I'm a very simple person and I don't do much, but I do what I like to do. Quite prolifically.

Speaker 1 1:37:40

It's not like you're. Oh, I'll create one picture and then I'll do something else.

Speaker 2 1:37:43

I think if you like to do something, you have to try to do it all the time, or as much as you can, Try to find something that you like and try to yeah, keep doing it.

Speaker 1 1:37:56

Out of all of the things that you've done, though I mean you've recorded multiple albums, yeah, pay steps all over the world, living in caves, emptying experiences, would you say you've led a happy life and is that of your making yeah, yeah, but there was a lot of.

Speaker 2 1:38:16

I struggled a lot. You know it didn't come easy.

Speaker 1 1:38:21

You said that there's a balance of pain that comes with that happiness.

Speaker 2 1:38:23

Yeah, of course Can you talk a little bit about that. I mean, I think that in order to do something, you have to sacrifice a lot.

Speaker 1 1:38:32

Do you feel like you've sacrificed A lot?

Speaker 2 1:38:35

A lot what I don't know, but you know I sacrificed a lot, a lot what I don't know, but you know I sacrificed a lot in terms of it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. Maybe people are listening to this and say, wow, this guy. But that's why I'm saying there was a lot of luck involved and that luck really helped me through this whole thing. If it wasn't for the luck, I don't know what would have happened to me.

Speaker 1 1:39:03

But what if that luck is a result? I don't know, maybe your power animals are watching over you.

Speaker 2 1:39:10

I don't know, and I think I would never know, because in the life that I live it's just something, that there's no parallel world and another life that could have been, should have been. I don't know. This is the life that I live. I know I I did well, I'm a happy guy in terms of, but I don't think happy it's a term that we should use, you know, I think happiness is another thing.

Speaker 1 1:39:38

Happiness is a byproduct of other things, isn't it? It's a result, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:39:43

I remember once I was busking in Granada, outside the Alhambra, and I met this Australian guy. He was probably in late 70s. He approached me, I was playing, he fell in love with the instrument and we had a chat and I said may I ask you something? You lived a lot, you seem like you travel a lot, you seem like you did well. So what's the most important thing in life? And he told me I think the most important thing in life is having peace of mind. And I think I don't seek for happiness, I'm not looking for happiness, I'm looking for peace of mind.

Speaker 2 1:40:28

I think, if you are in peace, you are able to create things. I'm a person when I'm not feeling well, I'm not able to come to the studio and paint. Some artists they say, yeah, I can create from pain, and when I'm struggling and I'm in pain, I paint in a different way. No, I just I can't. I have to be okay, interesting.

Speaker 1 1:40:52

I have to be okay. I see that I do see artists in a lot of the the.

Speaker 2 1:40:57

some of the greatest art can come from grief, melancholy, pain that's why, maybe that's why one of the reasons I'm not an artist, maybe you see so so I don't, I don't.

Speaker 2 1:41:09

It's not me. If I'm not okay, I'm not able to come to the studio and create. I have to be in peace. My mind has to be in peace. My mind has to be in peace. Once I have peace in my mind, I'm able to do other things. But it's nothing to do with happiness and seeking for happiness. No, it's something that people ask me why do you do it? I have no idea it makes me happy, but I couldn't say why do you do it? I don no idea it makes me happy, but I couldn't say why. I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:41:39

But, like we've said, I feel like you've led a life that is dominated by the pursuit of happiness, and I think that is an idyllic idea for a lot of people but very hard to achieve Due to sometimes the real world pressures that we all go through.

Finding Peace: The True Purpose of Creation

Speaker 2 1:41:56

Yeah, but again, it's not pursuing happiness, it's pursuing peace. Pursuing peace To be in peace with yourself. If I wouldn't be doing this today painting I know that I wouldn't be in peace, my mind would be troubled, I would be miserable, and if you're miserable, you're making the world that surrounds you miserable as well. If you're not in peace, the people that surrounds you are not in peace because you're not in peace. No, you're toxic. Basically, you're this thing that vibrates in a way that it's not okay energy, it's energy it's energy and I think that harkens back to some of these power animals.

Speaker 1 1:42:45

I feel that sort of yeah, yeah, that's why I was telling you about the.

Speaker 2 1:42:49

They are power figures. I think they have this energy. And some people they connect with one image and they don't connect with another one. But every, every collector that bought something from me, they tell me that I, really I have a connection with this thing. You know, with this I think that's important with all.

Speaker 1 1:43:09

I don't think you buy art. Unless I don't get wrong, people do buy art for investment purposes. But I think art, it's important to have that connection. This is something most people will maybe live with for the rest of their lives and will still be here when they're gone yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:43:26

So many possibilities. Maybe they are in love with the piece and maybe in five years they're gonna just chuck it in the bin. You never know and it doesn't matter to me. To me, the only thing that matters is that I'm able to do it, I can do it, I get away with it, it makes me happy, gives me peace. It's something that it's like.

Speaker 1 1:43:53

I guess I don't meditate, but I guess it's what people get from meditation, or I don't know, but it goes back to that flow state that we were talking about when you were creating.

Speaker 2 1:44:04

Yeah, that's all I care about. It's like I am into this flow of energy. It's not even about the final result. You know it's about.

Speaker 1 1:44:16

It's the journey.

Speaker 2 1:44:17

It's the journey, my journey. Final result you know it's about. It's the journey. It's the journey, my journey. Not even what the collector think about my work, or if it's good, bad, ugly, beautiful, that's up to you. That's you're gonna hang this thing on your wall. I care about producing it and the journey that I yeah, you're not wrapped up in.

Speaker 1 1:44:39

Oh, is this gonna sell? Is this the? Right, like you said, a decorative tone that's gonna match someone's living room.

Speaker 2 1:44:44

It's about creating creating, creating at all, and I keep creating.

Speaker 1 1:44:48

I have hundreds of pieces here, you know it feels a bit disingenuous now to talk about finances and survival and things like that after such a beautiful story of finding peace and doing things that provide you with happiness. But I'm sure there were some people sat here wondering well, that's great, but how does he survive?

Speaker 2 1:45:08

That's what I ask myself sometimes. But again, that's when sacrifice comes and knocks on your door, for example, I don't go out. I'm very lucky to have a partner that understands this, and she doesn't ask to be let's go out for a fancy dinner or let's go out for.

Speaker 1 1:45:32

Well, let's face it, with your culinary skills, you can probably cook better than most of them. Exactly If I want to do it, I'll do it myself.

Speaker 2 1:45:38

You can go and get some beautiful produce and cook something delicious.

Speaker 1 1:45:40

So I think I.

Speaker 2 1:45:42

I was clever in a way of from early stage, detecting what I really like to do in life and try to do it myself, so I don't have to depend on the others to do it for me. So but again, I'm very lucky to have a partner that can understand this, that there's.

Speaker 1 1:46:04

She bring you peace? I'm guessing, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:46:05

Yeah, and a lot of good humor Like she's.

Speaker 1 1:46:09

So that's what families should do Peace and joy, right yeah?

Speaker 2 1:46:12

So we we agree that the best thing that I created it's my family, and we are just happy to spend time together. Maybe it's not going to be about the travelings or the holidays, but we spend a lot of time together. So this peace of mind which we keep going back to, isn't it Peace of mind?

Speaker 1 1:46:36

Okay, then what's your best bit of advice for our listeners to find peace of mind, which we keep going back to? Isn't it Peace of mind? Okay, then what's your best bit of advice for our listeners to find peace of mind? I know that's kind of an individualistic thing.

Speaker 2 1:46:45

Yeah, it's very difficult. A very good way to find out is about to do something that you feel that it's creating peace of mind and it's not bothering anyone Because it works in that way as well, let's say, maybe I sit here and I talk about having peace of mind, but I'm making everyone's life miserable. How you affect the world around you. That's not fair, you know. So it's not about doing what you love, but what you love, but bothering no one.

Speaker 1 1:47:21

And how your energy affects other people. Yeah, it's like an ecosystem.

Speaker 2 1:47:25

It's like I see it as an ecosystem.

Speaker 1 1:47:27

Everything has to be in harmony.

Speaker 2 1:47:29

Yeah, what's music Harmony. What's a painting Harmony.

Speaker 1 1:47:34

Wow, that seems like a pretty good sort of stopping point really, harmony. Wow, that seems like a pretty good sort of stopping point really. Boxy, that's been so interesting and I understand now why Daniel suggested you as a guest. He kept saying, oh, he's got such an interesting story. I'm like yeah, but how? And he's like no, he'll tell you there's too much. But we do have a closing tradition on the Creative no Willam podcast. We like our guests to give some sort of inspiring quote or something that has inspired them along the way, and also suggest someone within your networks that you think might be an interesting guest to become on the Creative Noirland podcast.

Speaker 2 1:48:09

Yeah, A quote would be find what you love and let it kill you, Is that?

Speaker 1 1:48:17

Bukowski oh, we found our synergy there, boxy, I'm a big Bukowski fan.

Speaker 2 1:48:23

I'm not a big fan but I'm a big. I just love that quote. Oh, man love connected with that. I think that implies a lot of what I was saying about the sacrifice.

Speaker 1 1:48:33

I agree.

Speaker 2 1:48:33

You're going to do what you love, but probably.

Speaker 1 1:48:36

You'll have to sacrifice something for it, whether it's family money, financial wealth, ego status.

Speaker 2 1:48:43

There's a lot of sacrifice If you're not willing to do the sacrifice.

Speaker 1 1:48:48

It's very Buddhist, isn't it? Life is suffering right.

Speaker 2 1:48:52

Yeah, but the result, the outcome, it's something beautiful. If you're willing to do the sacrifice, the outcome it's something beautiful. There are not many things that I can be 100% sure of, but this is something that, trust me, through my experience. If you do the sacrifice and I'm talking about making a living of your art it doesn't matter to me. People nowadays are so obsessed with you're an artist only if you make your living out of art. That's bullshit. That's bullshit, you know. I think that's an error and that's keeping good people away from doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 2 1:49:38

People think, oh no, but I'm not good enough, so I won't do it because I'm not good enough. I'm going to stick to this. It does not just do it. You'll see, you'll have an impact in your life. And if it makes an impact in your life, it's going to make an impact in others' lives, starting with your family and friends. Impacting others' lives, starting with your family and friends. So that's being an artist for me. In my opinion, it's not about the work, it's about the way you live.

Speaker 1 1:50:09

Oh, Boxy, that's good. Is this going to be a little bit tricky for you? Someone else in your network to suggest as a guest?

Speaker 2 1:50:17

I wish I could say something, but the people I would say you already interviewed.

Speaker 1 1:50:24

Daniel.

Speaker 2 1:50:25

Lopez and Mark Wilkinson again people, I have a very simple life. My life is spending time with my family and coming to the studio, so I'm not.

Speaker 1 1:50:38

Well, you and I can go away and we can have a little chat. I'm sure there's someone. Maybe there's someone even in Argentina or Spain that I might be able to speak to, but don't worry about that for now, and it will be a surprise for all of our listeners when we move forward. Gracias, hombre.

Speaker 2 1:50:55

Muchas gracias gente, gracias por escuchar, thanks for listening De nada.

Speaker 1 1:50:59

Thank you so much, boxy. You really are a box of tricks and there is a lot of stories that go on your journey, so we are really grateful for you coming on the creative noel podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the creative Noirland podcast. If you found anything inspiring or useful in this episode, please consider subscribing or maybe sharing the episode with a friend. Anything you can do to help promote and support Creative Noirland is so beneficial, and I really appreciate it. Check out the website and sign up to the newsletter to be the first to know of everything that's going on here in Creative Noirland. Thanks again for listening and until next time, explore, inspire and create. Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way, and so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question what do I desire?