#0020 MIKE BULLARD - FROM POT WASHER TO PRIVATE CHEF!

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

On this episode, we're joined by someone from a different field of creativity, Executive Chef to the Stars and my friend, Mike Bullard.

Mike is a chef who's already achieved huge amounts within his industry, starting at the bottom of the ladder as a pot washer and working his way up the ranks to cheffing in multiple Michelin-star restaurants. He was the executive chef at a Premier League football club. He's created popups as well as owned and ran his restaurant.

He's been shortlisted for the Chef of the Year competition. And currently works as one of the executive chefs at a location, so exclusive cooking for the rich and famous that they've asked not to be named. Oh, and in his free time, he's a private chef for sports personalities and athletes like Professional Golfer Justin Rose.

Not a bad resume for someone who originally got into cheffing simply to earn a little bit of extra beer money for the weekends. 

In this episode, we discuss all of this and much more. Mike's journey to food becoming his passion, and that passion leading to exploring different flavours, cuisines, and experimenting with dishes to master his craft.

We talk about dealing with the pressures and stress of working in a commercial kitchen, balancing running a business with the desire to create the best culinary experience that you can. And whether cooking is an art, a science, or maybe a mix of both. 

Never afraid to try something new in order to learn and develop his passion.
Mike's story is not only inspiring, but in some sections might make you a bit hungry.  

Check out the links to Mike's social media while you're listening to the podcast, and we hope you enjoy this episode!

MIKE BULLARD INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/chef_mike_bullard/

Transcript

Introduction to Chef Mike Bullard

Speaker 2 0:06

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Nobland podcast. On this episode we're joined by executive chef to the stars and my friend Mike Bullard. Mike is a chef that's already achieved huge amounts within his industry, starting at the bottom of the ladder as a pot washer and working his way up the ranks to chefing in multiple Michelin star restaurants. He was the executive chef at a Premier League football club. He's created pop-ups as well as owned and ran his own restaurant. He's been shortlisted within the Chef of the Year competition and currently works as one of the executive chefs at a location so exclusive cooking for the rich and famous that they've asked not to be named, and currently works as one of the executive chefs at a location so exclusive cooking for the rich and famous that they've asked not to be named. Oh, and in his free time he's a private chef for sports personalities and athletes, like professional golfer Justin Rose. Not a bad resume for someone who originally got into chefing simply to earn a little bit of extra beer money for the weekends.

Speaker 2 1:06

In this episode we discuss all of this and much more Mike's journey to food becoming his passion and that passion leading to exploring different flavours, cuisines and experimenting with dishes to master his craft. We talk about dealing with the pressures and stress of working in a commercial kitchen, balancing running a business with the want to create the best culinary experience that you can, and, whether cooking is an art, a science or maybe a mix of both, never afraid to try something new in order to learn and develop his passion. Mike's story is not only inspiring but in some sections might make you a bit hungry. Only inspiring, but in some sections might make you a bit hungry. All I'm going to say is salted caramel chicken wings so good. Anyway.

Is Cooking Art, Craft, or Science?

Speaker 2 2:12

Creative Nobler Land podcast. Yeah, no problem, I appreciate it. Now you've worked in Michelin-star restaurants. You've owned and run your own restaurants. You were nominated for Chef of the Year. You currently work at a location so exclusive that they've told us we're not even allowed to mention it where you cook for high-powered guests and celebrities, your private chef for all sorts. You've really sort of done it all in your industry. But my first question is cooking an art, a craft or a science, or is it a combination of all of them? That's?

Speaker 1 2:48

a really good question. So pastry is a science. So anything to do with desserts, anything to do with, like, having to weigh out ingredients. So if you're making a croissant or a pan of chocolate, there is a science to that. You can't just rock up and just whack it in a bowl and and then taste it at the end and go, oh, that needs a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that. It's a science, whereas I think the chef, in part, the in the kitchen, the, the larder, the, the sauce section, the fish that that's an art, you know. And the craft is what you do to get to the art, to to put it on a plate. So the craft is making it, the art is putting it on a plate. I think that's kind of how I look at it, anyway my opinion, and the pastry is definitely a science.

Speaker 1 3:33

I'm not a pastry chef. I can do pastry, but I know how frustrating it can be if you don't get the science right and it just comes out like a wet lettuce and you're like God, I've just spent two hours making that and it just comes out like a wet lettuce and you're like god, I've just spent two hours making that and it's come out rubbish, whereas other things you can adapt. You can add a bit more acidity, you can add a bit more sugar, you can add a bit more whatever it might be, and you can adjust it accordingly and you're like oh actually, yeah, that's all right, but with pastry it's. It doesn't work like that.

Speaker 2 4:00

It just fails, yeah, just miserably. Oh really, and have you had a few moments like that?

Speaker 1 4:04

oh, yeah, yeah, loads, loads and loads and loads, yeah, um, but that's, that's part of learning right, and that's part of kind of putting stuff together and going oh okay, that didn't work. You know, I and weirdly I was very quickly I was making some madeleines the other day, which traditionally are sweet, but I made some savory ones and for some I just couldn't get the color on them. And I tried and tried. I spent most of my day just trying to get the right color. I tried with spray, I tried with oil, I tried with no oil, I tried adjusting the temperature of the oven, I tried changing the fan on the oven, I tried everything. It just went on and on and on and eventually I managed to do it. But that is the science part. You've just got to know. It's 160 degrees fan, three, seven minutes, take it out, let it rest. Don't take them out of the mold, leave them in the mold and it's just.

Speaker 2 4:54

yeah, that's the science of it, and I think that's why I wanted to get you on, because there is creativity. Creativity, as we've said in the podcast before, is a lot of it is just problem solving. It sounds like in in certain situations like that, it's just problem solving.

Speaker 1 5:07

What have I done wrong that has meant that this hasn't risen, or yeah, I think being creative is the whole point of being a chef from my point of view, because you enjoy seeing someone enjoy your food, you enjoy putting dishes together that you take inspiration from in other places, in other restaurants or around the world, and go oh, that's a really good idea, I'm gonna do something similar, but I'm gonna put a banana with it, or I'm gonna put some foie gras with it, or I'm gonna put some rabbit with it, and let's see how that changes and let's see what dimension we can go to with changing the texture or the color or the flavor and that. And that's where the creativity comes in.

Speaker 2 5:50

But I think that's also why I asked about the sort of science of it, because you do have to balance flavors right yeah, I think I'm probably, you know, overshadowing it a little bit.

Speaker 1 5:59

There is, obviously. If you make a really nice sauce, there is a method to it and if you don't follow that method, you won't end up with the the right product. So, for example, if you're making a sauce, you know you need veal bones, you need veal bones for the gelatin that's inside the bones to then thicken the sauce later on. So if you don't do that at the beginning, your sauce is going to be wet and not have the body and depth of flavor.

Speaker 2 6:24

So that's kind of where the science comes in, and is that something you learn as you're learning your skills as a chef?

Speaker 1 6:31

yeah, yeah, and you learn different ways of doing things. There isn't just one set way. If I was to make a red wine jus today, it doesn't mean to say that's the only way of making a red wine jus. Different restaurants, different places around the world will always make that red wine jus. You'll end up at the same, similar end product, but they might do it slightly differently to get to that end product. There's no right or wrong way as such. There might be just little twists here and there along the way.

From Beer Money to Culinary Career

Speaker 2 6:59

But that's, I guess, where the chef becomes the artist and the artisan to create those dishes and balance those flavors and go, oh, by adding those little capers to this sauce, suddenly it adds that definitely. Yeah, yeah, okay. And, as we said, you've done a lot in your career so far, but food was never really the passion for you, was it? When you were growing up, the passion for you was sport. So what I'd like to do is go backwards and see how this story and this journey develops to where you are such a sort of a recognized chef really. So talk to me about your first job in hospitality or the industry.

Speaker 1 7:34

Yeah, so first job was at jefferson's and jefferson's was like an american bar and grill and a friend of mine. When I was at school, I was probably 16, just in my last year of school, I was playing hockey at a very high standard and doing lots of other sports and whatever else. And because I was playing hockey at a really good standard, all my mates who I was playing with were like in their early 20s, late 20s and would. Once I played in the men's first team on a Saturday, all of them's first team on a Saturday. All of them were going out on a Saturday night having a few drinks. I was like, well, I want a slice of this cake, I want to go out and have a few drinks.

Speaker 1 8:12

Obviously, I was 15, I was 16. I was looking to enjoy myself. So a friend of mine at school said we've got a little glass collecting job. If you want to take it and come and join us and whatever. I was like, yeah, fine, I'll do anything, to be honest.

Speaker 1 8:32

And so that's how it started and I really enjoyed the hospitality side of it in terms of it was always buzzy, it was lively, you met lots of different people, the people I wasn't able to serve behind the bar. But the guys behind the bar, they were throwing bottles everywhere and it just looked really glamorous and it's like, wow, I want to do that. And so that's how I started in it. And a friend of mine at the time he was running a golf club and he'd phone me up randomly saying, oh, any chance you can do some washing up for me on saturday night, and if I wasn't working I'd go and do that as well, you know so, but it really was like base level, glass collecting, pot washing just to earn beer tokens exactly, yeah, and whilst you were there washing up, maybe you'd do a bit of prep, peeling potatoes, or there was one job that I absolutely hated, which was prepping sardines, because they're not the nicest thing to prep and if you don't wear gloves they make your hands stink.

Speaker 1 9:18

You know smell of sardines oh god, it's horrendous, but you know, that's how you learn and I think that's how a lot of people in our industry have learned over the years. And okay, it's a little bit different now, which I'm sure we'll talk about later on, but you know back then, that's how you learn. That's how you got into the industry.

Speaker 2 9:33

You had to start at the bottom and you had to work your way up and, but you weren't looking at it as an industry, then you were looking at as it's pocket money to facilitate more and more sport, because sport really was your, your passion, so much so that you, in terms of your studies, you went on to do a b-tech in sport science, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, how did that go, mike?

Speaker 1 9:55

yeah well, naturally, I thought that was my natural progression. I was so heavily in sport and I really wanted to do well. I thought, well, I'll do BTEC sport science and, to be honest, I didn't really know what I was going to do. After I just thought I just need to do it and as I was going through the course, I realized that I could pretty much only be, you know, a life guard or like a PE teacher, and I was like I don't want to do any of that really, and I think I kind of went well, actually, yeah, that's not, it's not for me, still love sport, and I just didn't really know what I wanted to do.

Speaker 2 10:28

I really didn't I think that's something that a lot of young adults go through. You find that limbo where you're perhaps passionate about something, like you say sport which is similar to art in a way, where people go yeah, but you've got to be the top, top one percent of this to even get it, and it's very unlikely.

Speaker 1 10:43

So perhaps the parents are going, maybe you need to take the safe option go and study looking back now, I probably wish I'd put my effort into as much as I don't have any regrets I wish I'd probably gone into a sport that was involved with money and at the time when I was playing hockey I just loved it. But hockey has no money. There's nothing in hockey. It's not a professional sport. You can't give up your job and go into playing hockey. Yeah, you could probably be a coach or a manager or whatever and get paid a little bit, but it's not enough to leave your full-time job. And actually if I'd put all my efforts into golf or tennis or football, then god knows where I would be now. But hockey was just the one. And I loved the social aspect of hockey. Like once you'd finish playing hockey you'd go back after the game and have a few beers and it was just a real social thing. And that as growing up, when you're 15, 16, 17, I think a lot of people that age would follow the social aspect rather than going. I need to get my head down, I need to be focused. You know, definitely, like you say, one probably do, but the rest of us just go. Yeah, no, it's great Playing at a good level, good standard, playing three, four, five times a week.

Speaker 1 11:52

It was pretty tough, but that was the main passion and that's the reason why I kind of got into hospitality, because I just needed the cash, yeah, so while I was playing hockey, I had a friend of mine whose girlfriend that's now wife worked at Metro Bar and Grill. And again, it was oh, we know, mike, he'll come and do one day a week or two days a week. And I was like, yeah, it's fine, like you know, extra cash. So at this point I was doing a little pot washing job at the golf club, I was doing jefferson's, and then I went to work at metro. And what happened then? That's where it really changed for me, because the guy who owned metro bar and grill at the time, paul salisbury, he phoned me up and said look, we'd love to offer you a full-time job.

Speaker 2 12:37

And I was like, oh, okay, that's not something I really thought about what do you think that they'd seen in you at that point that made them want to offer you a full-time job? Because in your mind it's just beer taking yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 12:49

I think it was the fact that I was. I had to be a grafter, I had to work hard. Hospitality definitely isn't for the faint hearted. You can't just, you don't just sit at a desk in front of a computer, and that's not knocking people that do sit at a computer, it's just it's very manual.

Speaker 1 13:06

You know labor and very unsociable very unsociable hours and it takes a different type of person to be able to do that. And I think at the time, like I was really like I was always getting in early, I was always getting my section set up. I didn't do it for any other reason other than just try to make sure that I wasn't in the shit all the time. I wanted a good service, I wanted to make sure that I was organized, and there's nothing worse that you're on the back foot during a busy lunchtime and you can't seem to get out of it. And that's where it gets stressful. And I think maybe they saw something in me that they thought actually this guy's really keen, let's get him now. And I've've done that since then. When I've seen someone who I think, wow, he's really good, he's got something, I offer them a job straight away or I'll get them in as much as I can, and sometimes it's not always what they want to do, but then actually they find their way oh, this is really good, I really enjoy that and that's why I ended up staying at metro for five years then because they originally offered you some sort of work-based apprenticeship, right yeah, so, um, that was through the college of food in birmingham, and so were you studying at this point, or just, no, just

Speaker 1 14:12

working. So I'd left college on my b-tech sports science. I didn't complete it and, much to my parents dismay, you know, they were like kind of finish it. But it just in my mind at the time I was just this is just not worth me doing, there's no point in me turning up. And actually when I was at the college doing my BTEC Sport Science, I sometimes didn't turn up because I just went to work instead. Oh, really, I just yeah, I just used to bunk off and go. Oh, sadly, I'll go and work instead.

Speaker 1 14:39

And at that point I was like you know what, there's no point in doing this, I might as well just jack it in and yeah. So decided to just keep working. And yeah, that's when I ended up at Metro, did my apprenticeship. So the apprenticeship worked out really well because you could do, obviously, work-based learning. You got paid by your employer to do your apprenticeship and actually that's how I would recommend a young chef going into our industry now. Don't bother going to college. I'm not knocking the colleges, but I think just get into a kitchen from an early age and just get into a good kitchen hands-on experience get into the best kitchen you can find in your local area that's doing the best fresh food, locally using great produce.

Speaker 1 15:24

Get into that kitchen and just work it like. Even if you start off at pot washing, they will get you to do some prep. They will get you to peel carrots and parsnips for sunday lunch and they'll get you to do random stuff. But that's how you learn and if you show willing to learn, they'll show you more. They'll get you to do the cauliflower cheese. They'll get you to make the cheese.

Speaker 2 15:43

So you know just little things and you pick it up so quick so when you went to metro and they offered you this apprenticeship for you to come and work with them full-time, was that something that suddenly changed your perspective on how you saw food and your passion for food?

Speaker 1 15:58

yeah, definitely. Obviously I was there for quite a while so it gave me the opportunity to still carry on playing hockey and sport. And Metro was always closed on a Saturday afternoon and a Sunday, so they opened on a Saturday night so it still allowed me to play sport on the weekend and if I was playing sport on a Saturday, I could still get to work on Saturday night. I do loads of work on Friday so I didn't have to go in too early on a Saturday so I could still go and do what I needed to do and get to work. And then Sundays were always free, and I think that's probably why I stayed for quite a while, because I knew I had it was unsociable hours.

Speaker 1 16:34

But when I got to the weekend I had my time to do my sport and whilst I was there we made everything from scratch. Everything was fresh, everything was lovely. You know, all the stocks and sauces were making. All the fresh fish used to come in. It was a really good restaurant at the time. It was very busy, you know. It was kind of the place to be, and over those five years I did definitely start to become more interested in food. I wouldn't say that it was like oh my God, I found my lifelong passion, but it was definitely starting to tick some boxes going. Hmm, I really like this, this is something I can get my teeth into. And then, towards the end, I was then looking for a job in food.

Speaker 2 17:12

Does that come hand in hand? You're learning, your skills are developing, as you say. You start as a carrot peeler and then it progresses and you get slightly more.

Teaching at Birmingham College of Food

Speaker 1 17:20

Yeah, definitely. I'm sure you've cooked at home where you've cooked something that you've never made before and then you taste it and go, wow, that's great. And when you're working in a kitchen full time, that happens a lot and you're like, oh my god, I didn't realize that flavor existed. And I guess when I was a child and growing up we didn't have a lot of money, we didn't really eat out, we didn't. My mom would cook at home and it would be very basic stuff cottage pie, shepherd's pie, fish fingers, beans and chips and just just basic stuff really. So I guess when I was growing up I wasn't open to finding all these new flavors. It was only when I got into the restaurant that I was able to taste things and go, wow, I've never experienced that before.

Speaker 1 18:05

And I think that's where it opens those doors and those creative things that in your body go. Well, I'm going to do that at home. I'm going to try this at home, you know, because I didn't always get a chance to do it at work. Obviously because I was still a commis chef and still learning the ropes. Obviously I stepped up while I was there. But I would then come home and go, right, I'm going to make this soup, I'm going to make this sauce, I'm going to make this fish pie or whatever. That's where then I was. My mom used to go mad because I used to use every pot and pan and she would go mad because it'd be your pot washer. She was a bit yeah, you know, there'd be sauce up the wall, there'd be like the house would stink of fish all day because.

Speaker 1 18:43

But I guess that's where then my passion really started to kick in, because I wanted to do more, I wanted to cook more, I wanted to learn more. I started looking at books and recipes and at the time there wasn't really many cooking programs on the tv other than, you know, ainsley harriet, already steady cook. Now it's. I mean, it's fantastic. Now the tv is brilliant for cooking programs, but back then there wasn't that much. So you had to get your head into books. You had to go out there and find as much as you can. There wasn't a lot social media wise back then, whereas now you've only got to use instagram as you google search and you can find all sorts of stuff you know, you can type in french cooking and all of a sudden loads comes up and it's very visual.

Speaker 1 19:23

You can see what's going on. People put videos on there and you can see how things are made. And actually now I would say I know we're going to talk about it, but I'm probably more passionate about food and more creative about food and more interested in the whole food industry now than I ever have been.

Speaker 2 19:42

Is that, just simply because of those things, you're able to get much more, many more inputs, shall we say, and I think you, you can, you see a lot more now.

Speaker 1 19:51

So, like you see how a whole peaking duck is made on instagram and the skin looks like glass, and you're like, wow, I really want to do that and I've had the opportunity to do it now and I know exactly how it's done and I've done it myself. I've done hundreds and hundreds of them, so that is a skill that I've had the fortunate position to be able to learn, all because I've seen it, I've seen it online. So I want to do that and you do it and you think, wow, that's great.

Speaker 2 20:21

But at Metro, those early days days like you're saying there weren't those resources there for young chefs you were having to look in recipe books and be inspired by, I guess, the chefs around you and the flavors around you. Yeah, so to what level did you get to a metro, working presumably from pot washer up, and what was the reason why you left?

Speaker 1 20:40

so five years obviously is a very long time in our industry to stay in a place. Usually people stay one or two years and then they move on and I think realistically I probably should have moved, probably after two and a half years. But again it goes back to that. It gave me a good lifestyle to be able to play my sport. But yeah, it started off washing up and then I did a bit of washing up and then I was on the sandwich section doing sandwiches for, you know, 150 people at the lunchtime and then I would move on to the starter section, larder section, and I'd be doing a bit of that.

Speaker 1 21:15

And then I got promoted to CDP, which is chef de partie, which you're then able to run a section on your own. You're not having to rely on someone else telling you what to do on your own. You're not having to rely on someone else telling you what to do. I then got onto the, the hot section, and then I was cooking proper cooking then, which I absolutely loved. My head chef at the time taught me how to cook and taught me how to cook a steak and and let it rest properly and cook a piece of fish in a pan and and all sorts of like lovely things, simple basic stuff. It wasn't michelin star restaurant or anything like that, it was just a very, very good restaurant.

Speaker 1 21:49

But the rudiments of cooking that you need to be able to then, I guess, experiment in the future and that's how I learned how to make sauces and stocks and that's how it built from there. And I did, I did, you know, I did very well, got to like sous chef level. And then the reason why I left again was sport. So I actually got pissed one day in a pub and someone bet me that I couldn't do an Ironman triathlon. Okay, and I was like, go on, then I'll do it. And I'd just done the London Marathon prior to that. And then someone was like, oh, I bet you can't do the Ironman, you know. And I was like, yeah, I can do that.

Speaker 1 22:28

And it was kind of the time that I felt like I needed to leave Metro anyway, because I'd been there for quite a long time and I wasn't really learning much more and I still wanted to carry on learning. And then I had someone who I knew very well who was working in a contract catering company in a solicitor's. I did all the food in the solicitor's and it was just something a bit different. The hours would change slightly for me to be able to train for a triathlon, so I could finish at three, four o'clock in the afternoon. I could then go home, do a long run, do a big bike ride or go swimming or whatever it might be.

Speaker 1 23:03

So I did like 12 months of solid training for an Ironman triathlon. If anyone knows, it's two and a half mile swim, 112 mile cycle and then a marathon, and you got to do it as fast as you can. And so it takes a lot of training, a lot of mental strength, a lot of discipline. Very, very similar to being a chef. It takes a lot of mental training, discipline being in a kitchen.

Speaker 2 23:28

Was it difficult to balance the two, not not necessarily in terms of the timing, but in terms of the mental fatigue? Yeah, or in the contracts? Catering is that? What sort of food are you producing in that level? Is it the same as metro? Is it still bases and all those things? Because it was still quite a high-end food. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 23:48

It was again. It was a company that provided fresh food in the solicitors. They had a canteen area which would feed all the people that worked in the solicitors every lunchtime and then each day would be. They might have a special meeting that requires like a nice buffet, or they might have a completion meeting on a Friday, which they want a five-course tasting menu. So it allowed us, whilst we were ticking over the canteen and making sure again, all fresh food, really nice dishes going out, we would then in the boardroom, if you like, we'd do a nice five-course tasting menu and we could write up the menu. There wasn't like a set menu or anything which we had to do the same every time. We could write up a menu and it allowed us to be a bit more creative.

Speaker 2 24:33

You got that experimental time too, actually.

Speaker 1 24:40

I'd like to do be a bit more creative with you got that experimental time too. Actually, I'd like to do something a bit more like this, definitely, and so it was almost like ticking both boxes. It was quite tough. If you went on a wednesday, for example, that would always be my long run day and that was a tough day. So when I went to work on a thursday, I was pretty tired and mentally.

Speaker 1 24:53

You've got to then get ready for what you're doing for lunchtime, you've got to get ready what you're doing for the evening, etc. And then a thursday night would be my long open water swim night. And actually then on a friday I felt much better. Friday night would be like a little jog or whatever. And then saturday, sunday would be flat out big long ride down towards bambury on the bikes and around the Cotswolds and then back up through Evesham back towards Moseley. So, but yeah, so that was tough. But equally I was still, like, very passionate about food. So at the weekends I'd still cook. I'd cook at home, creating different dishes that I thought I could put on this five course tasting menu back at work.

Speaker 2 25:32

So but you're 22 at this point and you're balancing the ironman training. Was the work you're doing at the contract catering as intense as working in a, say, commercial kitchen?

Speaker 1 25:46

I think it's different intensity. So when with the contract catering, there was like two or three chefs in the kitchen, so we still had a lot to do. We still had to focus on making sure everything was ready for lunchtime and making sure everything was ready for afternoon tea or the buffets or the dinners or whatever, because there was only three of us. At metro there was like 10 of us, so it's a bit different when you got a few more pairs of hands. But in the contract caterers there was only two or three of us on, so we still had a lot to do. It was still very pressurized. Any kitchen is. I don't think I've ever worked in a kitchen that hasn't been pressurized. I don't think there is many places out there that there is like that.

Speaker 1 26:27

But it was definitely something that taught me a lot in terms of you've got a lot of spinning plates with contract catering, so you've got lunchtime. You've got a buffet. You've got a lot of spinning plates with contract catering. So you've got lunchtime, you've got a buffet. You've got a tasting menu. You might have some sandwiches that need to go downstairs. There's lots of spinning plates With a restaurant. You're on a section you might be doing, say the larder section, and all you're focusing on is five or six different dishes and then you're just sending out the same. It's quite repetitive, whereas with contract catering you've got lots of spinning plates, lots of different buffets and all sorts of different things going out at the same time. So you've got to be really super organized, and I think that's what taught me a lot is being super super organized, making sure everything's ready the day before, getting loads of prep done, making sure that you're ready to rock and roll the next day and not leaving everything until the last minute.

Speaker 2 27:16

But you're still quite young at this point only 22, which is quite a fast rise for a young chef. And it's at this point that you're approached by the Birmingham College of Food right to actually come and be some sort of teacher lecturer, yeah so because I did my apprenticeship through the College of Food in Birmingham, one of the lecturers who used to come to see me at work.

Speaker 1 27:43

He then approached me and said oh, what about coming to do one lesson a week, or a couple of lessons a week, teaching? It was actually culinary arts management. This is really strange. Culinary arts management, it's a degree, so they wanted me to go in and do one of the lessons. I think it was like on auesday night or whatever it might be, and I had 16 students. They were all doing they're in their third year of their degree and they were on product development. So they would be in teams of 16 of them. They'd be in teams of two, so it was eight.

Speaker 1 28:10

They all had a cuisine each, and this was brilliant for me because I learned so much, really. So not only was I teaching and helping and guiding through their their course, but I was also learning a lot about different cuisines. So each couple would do a cuisine. So whether it be Thai, would it be Chinese, whether it be Romania, poland, like it was loads of different things, and what they would do is they'd have to have five starters, five mains, five desserts, and they'd have to cook all of them as per the recipe that they found online or in a book, and then they would whittle them down to two starters, two mains, two desserts and eventually, one starter, one main, one dessert.

Speaker 1 28:49

But they had to develop those recipes to whatever style they wanted to be. So, whether they wanted to have it in a gastropub or in a fine dining michelin style restaurant, they had to develop those recipes to the style that they they needed. And I was like loving it. I was tasting all the food and like look, I was like how did you do that? You know, have you thought about doing it this way? And they were like, oh, so it was a bit of a collaboration really.

Speaker 1 29:12

It wasn't bouncing ideas off each other yeah, it wasn't necessarily me just going to do this, do that, do the other, because they're degree students, they're well educated and and you know I was there more just guiding them through it and go, oh, what about this, or what about if you had a bit more acidity to that? And. And so I did really well, you know. And and then naturally they were like, oh, we've got this lesson that needs covering on a tuesday morning. Would you be able to do it all right? Yeah, okay, yeah. And then gradually it turned into a full-time job.

Speaker 2 29:40

Then did you get any pushback from anyone, bearing in mind you were so young? Go, what was it? What's this youngster know about? Why is he teaching us? He's only 22, you're all about the same age honestly I, I didn't really.

Speaker 1 29:52

I think people did see me a bit older actually, I think, because I I played hockey when I was, you know, 14, 15, 16 with adults. I think I naturally grew up a little bit quicker, so maybe my persona and my personality was a bit older than 22, you know, perhaps more 30 because I grew up a bit quick and also the the life experiences you've had up to this point where you've thrown yourself into the deep end and you're working in kitchens and it's an adult environment, right yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 30:22

For the faint-hearted. So you spent two years then teaching, didn't you?

Speaker 1 30:27

Yeah, a couple of years and I did from brand spanking new students that came into college from 16 years old to do their mvq at the time, level one and level two, level three, all the way up to the ba and fda students.

Speaker 1 30:44

So the students fda, so it's kind of like you know, like your a levels right kind of level. A lot of those students were overseas students actually, so they would. They would do two years of that before they go into their degree years, because the college of food then turned into a university so they then got university status so they were getting a lot more overseas students and I had great experience with mbq students, a level students, and also I carried on doing the culinary arts management course and helped with that, which was brilliant. So I got a good range of experience with further education and higher education, which was brilliant, and at the time I was still able to keep learning and developing my skills. What was really good is, you know, getting an old textbook of classic dishes and this is something that I probably missed out on up until this point where coq au vin, for example, or you know I'm trying to think of really classic like a dauphinois potato yeah, but like because that classic, traditional french style yeah, classic british style.

Speaker 2 31:48

There's a very much a a base level of cooking school. Wasn't there at one point where you find you get all those intricacies of the?

Speaker 1 31:57

yeah, definitely and I think I think when you're then don't remember the dish exactly, but it was something like a braised piece of beef with a sauce, and I've never done it before and I thought this is a great opportunity. You know, I've got to almost teach these guys how to do it, but I've never made it myself. So I went away and did loads of research, I read books and and then I felt really confident to go, okay, let's give it a crack. And at that time the students would all come around the front and you'd be doing the demonstration and then they'd go off and do what they need to do and it worked out perfectly. So I was.

Speaker 1 32:32

Although I was teaching, I was still learning some of the stuff that and even there's so much stuff that I've never made before. Just because I'm a chef and I'm a lot older now, it doesn't mean to say that I've made everything. I think it's impossible for every chef to say that they've made everything, and so I think it's great that point of being able to make some real classics. One of the dishes was like a lamb reform and it was like getting the best end of lamb. You had to bone it out, you had to get it all ready. Yeah, it's butchery as well as all of that isn't it?

Speaker 1 33:02

and then a reform sauce which it's got ox tongue in it, it's got egg white, it's got beetroot, it's got lots of elements sounds like a strange combination but it's very classical, very french, very classical dish. So again, like it was a perfect time, it was almost me going back to college and learning the old school classics while I'm getting paid to teach.

Speaker 2 33:23

It was great, it was really good, brilliant, did well and did some really cool things there and through the college of food, and obviously you now teaching and building, I'm guessing, quite a good reputation. Opportunities came up for you to do consulting for other companies, didn't they? And the one I want to go specifically for is West Bromwich Albion Football Club.

Speaker 1 33:44

Yeah, so through the College of Food. There was one of the guys who was kind of like management at the college. He approached me and said that West Bromwich, Albion had approached the College of Food for some help really, and the College of Food did get companies like Mars, for example, would go to the College of Food and ask the lecturers or students to do some development work for them, or it might be Nestle or it might be a. There was a company called Majors who made stock powder and stock sauces, so that was quite good to be fair. And so they west bombage, albany, had approached college of food and the college of food then came to me and said would you like to just go in one day a week and do a bit consultancy, see what they're doing, see how they're doing it, maybe make some just suggestions of how they could change? And so yeah, I now know from that the reason why I was asked to go and do that and that's a story I love.

Executive Chef at West Bromwich Albion

Speaker 2 34:41

So go on, mike, tell that story. Why were you asked to go into west brom football club?

Speaker 1 34:45

so basically, delia smith, who was the chairman at norwich city at the time, she visited the boardroom with the west brom chairman. So they're both in the boardroom with the West Brom chairman. So they're both in the boardroom together.

Speaker 2 34:59

And I suppose we should say, for anyone that doesn't know who Delia Smith is in the UK, she was a very famous cook, shall we say, Not necessarily a chef, but she made herself famous by cookbooks and TV shows.

Speaker 1 35:12

Yeah, she was very famous at the time Before I got there, I think it was a week before, two weeks before. It was like a cup game and she was served raw chicken in in the boardroom and she just really berated the west brom chairman about how bad the food was and I think he was like, right, that's it, gotta get this sorted out. And then obviously he probably spoke to someone else. He spoke to someone else and then they approached college food. So my first game where I was kind of in charge, if you like, was against norwich city, again in the league, and I remember going in and it was like a really big thing.

Speaker 1 35:51

I remember the chairman of west brom at the time he came into the kitchen and I could just see panic on his face.

Speaker 1 35:57

He was like we've got to, whatever you do, we have got to get this right and and yeah, we did like a four course, five course menu, whatever it was. And he said that she just sat in silence throughout the whole meal because she knew that it was just it was really good and the feedback that I got from other people in the room was like it was exceptional. But she just stayed really quiet and the chairman just kept on like looking over to her, almost waiting for her to say something, but she didn't. So that's kind of how it started, really, and and then, I think because I did a really good job at that point, the chairman was like right, we've got to get this person in all the time. And that's when I then left the college of food and then went and worked at west brum as a football club and basically rebuilt how the club operated around food and were the executive chef for three seasons, was it?

Speaker 1 36:50

yeah. So when I got there, a lot of places are like this back then and are now where big catering places. They'll buy in a lot of stuff. They'll buy in everything they can and cook very little, because they're cooking for like two or three thousand people per match or you know whatever, and it gets a bit lazy. It gets a bit like god. We could do better for the amount of people, the amount of chefs that we had on a week and for a match. He's just like we could do much, much better here.

Speaker 1 37:20

So I started off really simple. So instead of buying powdered soups, we started making our own fresh soup. And then a friend of mine was a baker. I got him involved and he'd come in and make all the bread rolls fresh every game. So he'd make 2000 bread rolls every game. And he'd come in and make all the bread rolls fresh every game. So he'd make 2000 bread rolls every game and he'd come in two days before. We just picked little things here and there. Just go right, let's focus on that, tick that box. Once that's done, we can then move on to the next thing, and that's kind of how we did it. Again, stocks and sources is very. It's a big passion of mine. I think that's where you get a lot of flavor from. So we then started making our own stocks and sources. We started doing a bit of butchery work, we started doing a bit of fish prep and again just very simple stuff, but just going back to basics.

Speaker 2 38:07

Just gradually changing, not trying to just turn things around overnight.

Speaker 1 38:10

No, I don't know For that amount of people every week. You just couldn't and you had to pick your battles. You had to work out. Well, I know this isn't great at the minute, but I'm going to have to park that to one side because I need to focus on this area first. We'll get this sorted out in the next two weeks and then we'll then come back to that.

Speaker 1 38:28

And the food dramatically changed and within football Premier League, they have what's called visit england, which is like not not michelin, but like a governing body that would rate you where you are within the league based on your hospitality. And visit england would come and it would not just be the food but it would be the parking, the tickets, the hospitality, the entrance, the game, the seats, everything and the food and the drink and whatever else. And West Brom, when I first joined, was 19th out of 20 in the Premier League and over the three seasons I got it to second in the Premier League. Who was ahead of you? Man City and I. Actually I was really annoyed and I was like, right, I'm going to man City and I. Actually I was really annoyed and I was like, right, I'm going to man City because I want to see what this is.

Speaker 1 39:19

And I went to man City the Etihad and you know what? I was blown away I was. What was it that they were doing? That was different. I think it just even walking have you been to the Etihad? Like it's so special, even just walking to the stadium, it's amazing, it's massive. You know, they've got like 20 football pitches to the side of the stadium, which is their training pitches, and it's just another level and then when you walk in, everything's just pristine. It's it's just amazing and they had at the time a lot of money so they could really throw it all at. I went and sat in one of the director's areas and it was like eating in a Michelin star restaurant and I could understand why they were the top of the Premier League in terms of hospitality, because they couldn't have put a foot wrong.

Speaker 2 40:11

What did you take back from man City and the experience there and try to implement into West Brom?

Speaker 1 40:18

When I went back to West Brom, what I tried, I understood it was all about investment. I understood it was all about money and with West Brom, Ijalbi and the chairman didn't want to spend a penny.

Speaker 2 40:29

So that means you're limited. So.

Speaker 1 40:32

I was at a point then where I changed all the food. I've got everything to being fresh. Really, I did it all in all the areas. What I realized is that it needed investment into those areas where people were eating. If you go to the fan zones now in in football clubs, they're they're amazing. They have like street food, they have all sorts of stuff, and that's where I could see where West Brom needed to go. In hindsight, what actually was happening was the chairman wanted to sell West Brom, so he didn't want to spend any more money, because obviously he wants everything to look great and sell it.

Speaker 1 41:11

So that's why he didn't want to put any more investment into it.

Speaker 2 41:14

And was that a catalyst for you then, after three seasons, to go, because we're sort of forming a thing here, whereas you're not afraid to just go right onto the next thing? I want a new challenge. Yeah, definitely, and this is where you decided to go on a bit of a rogue trip to America, right, yeah, do you?

Speaker 1 41:31

know what. What caused that was at the time I was really getting into food. Now, like this is the point where I was watching everything I was. There was one thing that came up which, in our industry, is the 50 best, and the 50 best is around the world, the 50 best restaurants, and there was a couple of restaurants in america that I I saw on the awards. I watched the awards on my laptop and I saw these chefs going up to collect their award and it was like you know, the 10th best restaurant in the world. I was like, oh my God, I need to see this. So I Googled the restaurant, went onto their website. Some websites are brilliant. Some websites aren't great. Some websites people don't even like to show their menu or pictures. You know, they're very quite. We keep everything closed, but I I saw a couple of restaurants.

Speaker 2 42:24

I was like I really need to go and see this restaurant. Which ones in particular you think so there?

Speaker 1 42:28

was restaurant daniel, which is in new york, and there was a restaurant in south africa called the test kitchen and actually the test kitchen was at the time ran by a british chef called I think it was luke, luke daniels that went over to south africa and he opened this restaurant called the test kitchen and that got into the top 50 and I was like this looks amazing. The food was just incredible. What type of cuisine were they doing? Again, like it was in daniel, was in new york, was, uh, french classics and a lot of the fine dining restaurants in america were french classic with twists and whatever. And obviously with luke in in south africa he was doing british, modern british, but a bit of a south african twist. In in south africa there was a couple of other restaurants, like a couple. There was one in brazil, there was one in hancock, I think it was.

Speaker 2 43:19

That just looked exceptional and once again, you're just inspired and you, oh yeah see what they're doing and go. What can be done in these places is incredible and I want to emulate absolutely, and and you just want to.

Speaker 1 43:31

You just want to experience it, you want to taste it, you want to, you want to try and get in there and go into somewhere like that. You like talking 700 pound a head, you know, I couldn't afford to go and eat there and I thought well, why don't I just go and work there? I'll go and do work experience. This is how it started. I said well, you know, go and do a day's work. How do you set that up? Just contact. I just contacted them.

Speaker 2 43:53

So the first one I contacted was restaurant daniel, and I was really you always set on new york rather than going to south africa or bangkok. Was there just more of more in new york? Yeah?

Speaker 1 44:03

so. So at the time there was like three or four or five, actually, restaurants in new york that were all doing really amazing things and at the time I thought, wow, these are really like they're light years ahead of the UK at that point in my opinion, and I thought I've got to go and see it.

Speaker 2 44:21

What sort of stuff were they doing that made you feel like they were light years ahead? Because, as I say for a young chef, you've already experienced quite a lot in your industry. Do you remember anything in particular that some of these restaurants were doing that made you think wow.

Speaker 1 44:34

I think it was just the simplicity of of dishes. I think in the uk at the time people were making everything really like over complicated and this was a time where heston blumenthal came out with like snail porridge and you know like and it was all the smoke, it was all the smoke and the foams and the what they call molecular gastronomy, where you're using powders and potions and all this sort of jazz to make food what it was, I guess so and that wasn't really for me.

Speaker 1 45:04

I appreciate it and I'm sure that people used to work really, really hard to get to that point.

Speaker 2 45:46

But you don't necessarily want bacon sandwich flavored ice cream, or whatever I mean.

Speaker 1 45:52

I would have loved to have tried it, but it wasn't something that I really wanted to work in or work with and we went to a point where chefs in the UK were putting 17 or 18 different elements on one plate and it took ages and then the food would go out cold and it's like it's not for me. It took ages and then the food would go out cold and it's like it's not for me. And one of the lecturers that I worked quite closely with in the College of Food. He always used to teach me or tell me every plate of food if you've got the most amazing piece of protein, whether it be meat or fish and the best sauce, everything else almost becomes irrelevant because that's what people are going to remember. If you put a piece of steak and the best sauce's what people are going to remember. If you put a piece of steak and the best sauce on, people will remember that forever. And that really sunk into me quite well.

Speaker 1 46:37

And when I looked at the stuff in America, that's what they were doing. They were doing really simplistic stuff but using the best produce they could find, and I think it might've just been the timing of it and I thought, wow, I've got to go and see that. I've really got to go and see that. So I contacted Restaurant Daniel. I really thought, god, you know, imagine if I get there and do that. And they emailed me back within a couple of days saying oh, I'm awfully sorry, but we only take people that have gone to the CIA, which is the Culinary Institute of America.

Speaker 1 47:10

So you had to go to the CIA before you then came to work at Restaurant Daniel, and you had to do like three or four years.

Speaker 2 47:17

Oh really.

Speaker 1 47:17

Yeah, and actually in America it was very difficult to even get a job at a certain level. You had to start at the bottom, you had to start as a commie chef. It doesn't matter if you were a head chef somewhere else. Everyone started as a commie and you then worked your way up. That's how it worked, unless he was obviously a head chef in another michelin star restaurant somewhere else and you was then bought in. But yeah, most generic kind of mid-range chefs would always start at the bottom and it might only take you a week or two to step up, but they wanted everyone to start from the bottom and work their way up.

Speaker 2 47:51

So originally they said no, sorry, you haven't got the cia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't.

Speaker 1 47:56

I didn't go to daniel, I didn't. That was one restaurant that I really wanted to go to, um, but because I didn't go to the cia and it was just very long-winded and I was like, look, I only want to come and do a week you know.

Speaker 2 48:06

So what did you do? Who else did you?

Speaker 1 48:08

so I approached per se, I approached april bloomfield, again a brummie. She went to the college of food in birmingham wow. And then she went over to america. She obviously did very well. She then opened her own restaurant in america, in in new york, called the spotted pig, and the spotted pig was a British gastropub and she got a Michelin star for it Wow. And then she opened the Breslin and she opened the John Dory. She was just like really inspiring because she was just a I say just a brummie, but she was Birmingham.

Speaker 2 48:41

Well, you felt that connection. Yeah, definitely, she's from where you are and you've seen it done.

Speaker 1 48:46

Yeah, so I just again sent an email to their done, yeah, so I just again sent an email to their whatever email address was on their website saying hi, I'm looking to come over to to do a week's work experience. Is there any chance I can come and work with you guys? You know, free of charge, blah, blah, blah and, and a friend of mine, his brother lived in new jersey so we could stay with him in new jersey and yeah, just, it's just making those contacts and it's just networking. You know, like and and did they?

Speaker 1 49:12

come back and say yes, you could, yeah, definitely yeah, so then I was all right, okay, let's go, let's flights, and went out there and went straight to per se. Per se is an amazing place, it's, it's incredible, you know.

Speaker 2 49:24

But again, so per se was another restaurant but owned by a different person yeah, per se was owned by thomas keller, who's in our industry, is incredible, you know. But again, so, per se was another restaurant, but owned by a different person.

Speaker 1 49:30

Yeah, per se was owned by thomas keller, who's in our industry, is massive, you know, he's like the king of cooking in america and he has a restaurant called the french laundry in california and both kitchens are both the same. So the kitchen in california and the kitchen in per se in new york is is a replica. So if you work in one or the other, the kitchen's exactly the same. Everything's the same place everything's.

Speaker 2 49:55

Is that so they could? What interchange chefs from coast to coast?

Speaker 1 49:58

yeah and also the ergonomics of how a kitchen works. So you have the kitchen in the middle and then around the outside you'd have like the chocolate room, the bakery, the butchery, the, the fridges, and then you'd come back around and then the pastry would be there and it would be like kind of the best way of serving the restaurant and they would specifically build the kitchen based on the most effective way of serving the restaurant. And that was just again another element that I never even thought of. When you work in kitchens some kitchens you're thinking God, who designed this? You know, like Stevie Wonder must have put this together and you work in some kitchens that go wow, someone really thought about the flow of how a kitchen works Exactly, and that was another side of me learning that I had no idea about.

Speaker 1 50:48

And then someone would put like a built-in spoon pot into the surface and it'd be right next to something that you would do on one of the dishes. God, someone really thought about. I'm producing this lovely dish. I don't want to walk all the way over there to get my spoons, I just want them right here. Or I don't want to walk all the way over to the pot wash area to swill out the dirty water and I'll just have it built in with a built-in tap and a plug underneath it and it can just circulate the water all the time.

Speaker 1 51:19

You're like wow all these things are there and now. Obviously I think about it a lot, and every time I go and help someone or with my own restaurant, I'd you think about the flow you think about how it's quick and easy to get the food out and most effective way of doing it. So that was how per se came about and, le Bernardin, I went there as well. So per se, le Bernardin and the Breslin, that was where my all my inspiration came from for coming back. But how long were you in?

Speaker 2 51:49

new york. Um how long were you there? How long did you tell everyone you're going for?

Speaker 1 51:53

I was supposed to go for a week and I ended up being there for about 12 months, so but that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 51:58

You were so inspired, you wanted to work, you wanted to learn. You were even working for yankee state on your days off, working at yankee stadium, the kitchen, yeah.

Speaker 1 52:08

So I just contacted again. It's just, it's been a bit cheeky just sending an email and hoping for the best. And because I was at west brahman working in a big stadium, I was thinking, well, what's a big stadium like in in america? You know, you and in america stadiums work very differently. Like if the game's on at three o'clock, in america everyone turns up at nine o'clock in the morning and it's a whole family day out. It's like they've got fan zones, they've got food, they've got concerts going on, they've got everything. Whereas in the UK if the game's on at three o'clock, everyone turns up at five past three and then normally leave 15 minutes before the end of the game and everything's just done and dusted very, very quickly.

Speaker 1 52:49

Whereas in america it's is very much that hospitality side of things and really looking after people, and I mean america is amazing for hospitality anyway. So in america, in the yankee stadium, their stadium holds over a hundred thousand. In the scale of west brom, that probably holds 36 000. You know, the yankee stadium is like three or four times the size and I just thought you know what? Who cares? Let's just message him and see what he says. And he was like yeah, no worries, man, come down, we'll look after you. So I just went, I went along for the day and I got to the stadium and, yeah, I met the exec chef and he showed me around and got my chef whites on and and and that was like that was incredible.

Speaker 1 53:31

And the one thing that really stuck in my mind was concourses in the uk you get, you know, like a pucker pie, whereas concourses in america you'd have this massive glass front and you'd have, like, fresh pasta being made and then, as you're queuing up, you can see the pasta being made and then you can see it being rolled, and then you can see it being cut, then you can see it being cooked and then, by the time you get to place your order, you're getting this fresh pasta with this beautiful short rib ragu and, you know, parmesan on top and, wow, you're like, oh my god, this is what hospitality is like. Just because you're going to watch a game doesn't mean to say that you need a pucker pie or you need, you know, like bloody, a greasy burger no one's food you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 54:15

I just it really opened my eyes and their hospitality was just on another level compared to anywhere I've ever been. I think the closest now is tottenham hot spurs in this country I'm glad you said that, being a big spurs fan but I've not been to the spurs ground, but I've been told I mean I've been a few times.

Speaker 1 54:32

It's exceptional, it's exceptional, yeah, and with its own brewery yeah, but the food is yeah exceptional there, you see it yeah, and weirdly I'm going to do it again because I know someone who knows the exec chef at tottenham hot spurs and I've asked him if he can put me in touch with him so I can go down and have a day. But this is what I mean.

Speaker 2 54:51

But even then, what was supposed to be a few weeks turned into 12 months of learning, getting inspired, experiencing all of these different sensations, flavors, environments, restaurants and it really was, like you say, the Breslin, the John Dory restaurant. They were the things, the inspiration that almost pushed you to come back and go right.

Speaker 1 55:12

I've filled myself full of inputs, but now I want to do something myself, right definitely I think every chef will go through this point where they always want to open their own restaurant. They'll always want to do their own thing and it's been able to put you on a plate and put you in front of the public really and critics and try and really push for what you can do yourself. So when I came back I again got a little consultancy job at the Edge Baston Priory Tennis Club and Health Club and while I was there me and a friend of mine was looking at doing a little pop-up and digbeth dining club was really big at the time. It just kind of broke where people were going to the dining club and that was amazing for people who aren't from around here.

Speaker 2 56:01

So the dining club was what it was. Restaurants would do, like tiny pop-up carts or street food carts, or no, it was it was a bit more simpler than that actually it was.

Speaker 1 56:10

It was people that hadn't worked in restaurants but just wanted to go. So, for example, there was there was a guy that I knew who did some amazing food. He worked in a factory but he was really good as an amateur cook and digworth dining club it was on the railway arches, so where the trains would come in from London. It was all done on gazebos and they'd have cooking stuff at the back and they'd just be making pulled pork, burgers and loaded fries like what we know street food to be now.

Speaker 1 56:43

And Digbeth Dining Club gave the opportunity to people that had a passion for food to have a go, that had a passion for food to have a go, and they were just set up. So, without having to have massive overheads, of opening your own restaurant, without having to get really deep in financially into something, it gave them the opportunity to put a gazebo up and cook some really good food and actually the food was amazing. There was a lady who did Thai food who's now since then gone on to open in her own restaurant, and that that food was just incredible. It was really, really tasty and I thought at the time well, we should do that, but why don't we do it inside a pop-up you?

Speaker 2 57:21

saw this and just suddenly went right, okay, let's put a pop-up as a restaurant rather than say like a street bending, yeah, yeah exactly so.

The Butcher's Social Pop-up Origins

Speaker 1 57:30

At the time there was a guy that we knew who had bought an old butcher's shop and the idea was that we would turn it into a fine dining restaurant. But we said, well, while it's empty and we're getting planning permission and doing all that jazz and getting ready for it, why don't we just open it? Why don't we just make some palette tables, beg, borrow and steal chairs? In fact, the first night we never had any tables and chairs. We just opened and we got a dj in the corner and it was real proper spit and sawdust. It was still the butcher's floor had a butcher's marble table with the mirrors and you know like it had like a little canopy where they must have done like hot pork baps. And then he goes through the back and they had the big walk-in fridge and freezer and prep area.

Speaker 1 58:16

It was so surreal and actually like it was probably the coolest thing that we did ever, because it was just such off the cuff, like not planned. It was just like, well, why don't we do this next weekend? And we're like, okay, right, what, what do we need? And we just did it and what we decided to do was just sell beer and chicken wings and yeah, we just promoted it on social media. We started a Facebook and Instagram page and we also got Tom Cullen, who owns I Choose Birmingham, tom he promoted it for us in his magazine.

Speaker 2 58:49

And when we say chicken wings, it wasn't just a standard chicken, was it? Go on then, tell us what was the speciality chicken wings they used to do.

Speaker 1 58:55

It started off as salted caramel chicken wings and I think that's what Tom had put in his article on I Choose Birmingham and he put salted caramel chicken wings Saturday 8th of March, whatever it was. We thought, oh thanks, tom, like amazing, amazing, and we got ready and we did different flavors, obviously. And you'd come in, you place an order at the bar, you'd get a little, not a lottery ticket, um number ticket number ticket, a cute queuing ticket?

Speaker 1 59:24

yeah, I think yeah, 89, whatever, 71, and you'd wait your turn and then, whenever ready they were ready, we would shout out 71. And you'd come up and collect your food. And these chicken wings were in just takeaway boxes and it'd be different flavors. So salted caramel, which had like crispy bacon and honeycomb on the top. We did Frank's hot sauce. We did beer, because we had beer as well. We used leftover beer and made beer honey. And like crispy onions, we did jalapeno and pineapple. We did some bizarre ones like lemon meringue pie chicken wings and it was honestly it.

Speaker 1 1:00:00

We just did it. And, yeah, the more crazy we got with the flavors, the more people wanted more. But we always used to keep salted caramel frank's heart, I think. We did like a smoky barbecue one as well, and then we'd always have two or three weird and wonderful flavors and promote it on social media and and then everyone would message us going, oh my god, like can't wait for this, like it really created this, like real interest.

Speaker 1 1:00:26

So the first night we had no idea how many people were going to turn up. We ended up with a lot more people than we should have inside and a friend of mine was there who is security at Birmingham airport. I was like Mark, please just stand on the door and stop people coming in, because we're going to get in trouble here. Like it was such a cool vibe with the DJ was playing local beer, like amazing chicken wings, it was just brilliant. But we had this massive queue like going down Harbour and high street waiting to get in and I just had to. We just didn't expect it at all and I think that is really, you know, a testament to Tom because he promoted it for us.

Speaker 2 1:01:09

Really, although we did a bit of but also the fact that you've come up with these crazy flavors, the salty caramel. That's intriguing in itself, yeah, and I want to taste this yeah, they are more ish.

Speaker 1 1:01:20

That kind of happened by accident. The salty caramel chicken wing. We didn't really plan that, it was just. How did it happen? I actually think we were probably making a sticky toffee pudding at the time and a chicken wing fell into the sauce generally I think I think it was. Yeah, it was something like that. Or we were making sticky toffee because I'm a massive fan of sticky toffee pudding and we had some toffee sauce, and it might have been. We were trying different things and then we just got the toffee sauce.

Speaker 1 1:01:46

Let's try that, oh my god, put a bit of salt. Oh my god, that tastes even better with more salt. What was it? The salt and the sweet though it was, it was definitely the salt and the sweet mix, because then we put loads of crispy bacon over the top, which was salty, and then we got honeycomb, which we then crushed and then sprinkled honeycomb over the top. So is this really you?

Speaker 2 1:02:08

might have to stop the podcast and get to cook some of these blimey it was really infectious. It was, it was great, and that's where the name, and because of the fact that you were doing it out of an old butcher shop, that's where the name the butcher social came from.

Speaker 1 1:02:19

That's it yeah, the butcher social. We, we went over a few pints of what to call it and you know, the social butcher, the butcher social, oh god, it was, it was, and we just kept on coming back to.

Speaker 2 1:02:29

The Butcher's Social. Do you remember any of the really terrible names that you were thinking of calling it? Honestly, you blocked them from your mind.

Speaker 1 1:02:34

No, it was so long ago I can't remember now, but it was just, it was the right time and the right place to do it. And because of that one night we then went oh, let's do another night, let's see if it wasn't just a fluke, or if it was a fluke or whatever. And then it was again just as popular. We were like, wow, we might have something here. So I think the week after we then did a double whammy, we said, well, let's do Saturday and then we'll do like a Sunday brunch. So we said, let's just open Sunday. And this was when we then introduced the tables and the chair. We've got a load of chairs off eBay and we started to set it up more like where you can come in and sit down.

Speaker 2 1:03:13

Sit down rather than just grab and pick yeah.

Speaker 1 1:03:15

We just literally begged, borrowed and stole. I think overall it costs us like a grand to set it all up properly, and that included getting our health and safety in place and all that, because this is where it sort of fell apart in those sense of the pop-up, wasn't it?

Speaker 1 1:03:31

you said it's a really complicated process of temporary event license, the health and safety, all those things, restrictions on numbers of people who can come in so so is that how the butcher's social then developed and changed into its its very own restaurant yeah, I think what we, what we did, was we realized that if we're going to, you know you've got a duty of care to people and I think if you're going to allow 200 people in, you've got to be safe, right, and if something ever happened we would have been in like a serious amount of trouble. And yeah, we were quite cheeky by doing it the first couple of times. But then we realized actually we need to do this properly. So we needed a proper alcohol license, we needed to be safe, we needed to have fire extinguishers, we needed to have it just do things properly. So we put a bit of investment into it off the back of what we made over the couple of weekends that we did.

Speaker 1 1:04:24

And then we decided, well, we're going to put all this in, so let's open thursday, friday, saturday, sunday. And that's how it developed into opening a little bit more. And people were messaging on a Monday going what's the menu this week? Because we'd always change the menu and we'd just do random different things. We'd do short rib on a crumpet with coffee and onion glaze. It was so random but it worked. And that's where all our experimental stuff really played a good part. We come up with some.

Speaker 1 1:04:54

I've probably got some menus and some bits and bobs, yeah, because we used to write up the menu on a chalkboard and then we used to then take a picture of the chalkboard and then upload it onto social media and then people could read what they could have. So when we open on thursday, people go oh god, I've got to go for that, I've got to go for that I've got to try the lemon meringue pie exactly yeah, yeah, so that's how it happened. And then we yeah, we ended up doing it for nine months wow.

Speaker 2 1:05:19

So what was the catalyst then that changed that from being this cool buzzy pop-up? What made you decide to take that and develop into? Was it just your passion on wanting a proper restaurant?

Speaker 1 1:05:30

yeah, so basically me and Jamie was a friend of mine at the time and a very good chef we both wanted to do this proper restaurant and I think at the time we probably not really spoke about it, but I think at the time we both had slightly different ideas of what we wanted the restaurant to be. He then opened Harbour and Kitchen, which is still open now. It's a very successful restaurant in the place that the Butcher's Social used to be in. So I wanted to then find a venue for the Butcher's Social and I just fell in love with the Butcher's. I fell in love with the relaxed atmosphere. I fell in love with the food being quite let's just write a menu and go for it, whereas harbour kitchen is very much a fine dining restaurant. It is very good. But I just didn't want to be stuck to trying to cook for michelin or cook for inspectors and stuff that freedom to be what you want 100, and this is where the creativity of the butcher social left me wanting more.

Speaker 1 1:06:33

And although it was only for a very short period of time, I knew that it was the right thing to do to open the butcher social somewhere else, and so we found a venue and it just felt right and yeah, opened the butcher social in henley and arden, and that was something you did, hugely successful.

Speaker 2 1:06:49

you ran that for five years. Recognized within the Midland Food and Drink Awards, you're recognized by the Times as one of the top 30 restaurants to have a Sunday lunch at, and at this point I'm guessing, as well as your passion for food, again, you're learning more about the business side. It's more on your terms. You're opening this restaurant. Yeah, you've got business partners and things, things like that, but that's a learning experience in itself as well, surely?

Speaker 2 1:07:12

yeah, it's, it's a massive baptism of fire, because if you've never done it, you've got to learn really quickly, you've really got to know your stuff even though you had so much experience within restaurants, industry, cuisine, different countries where you've done work experience, would you still say you're a little naive going into it? Oh, 100%.

Speaker 1 1:07:33

I think I had this confidence about me to just go yeah, I'll do that, no problem, easy. And I think, because you think that the food side of things is easy, I think you underestimate how hard it is to actually employ people to think about pensions.

Speaker 2 1:07:49

Run it as a business. Yeah, you're more involved. You know I want to create the most amazing food, but sometimes you go. Well, hang on, we haven't got the overheads or the budget to spend on that produce. We have to do this and the day-to-day running of a restaurant, a business like that, must be difficult it is.

Speaker 1 1:08:04

It is very difficult and it's and it's very you kind of. It's almost like banging two heads together because one head wants to spend all this money on really nice produce and make the food amazing and get lovely plates and cutlery and crockery and glassware, and then the other head here is going oh my god, one of the runners has just smashed a 20 pound glass. I can't afford to keep buying wine glasses at 20 pounds each. What do I do? How do I find cheaper glasses but that don't look crap. And so you're always constantly banging these two heads together because you want this amazing.

Speaker 1 1:08:37

You want the quality, but in some respects you have to trade it off in 100 you know, and in the end don't tell anyone but I ended up buying the wine glasses from ikea because they were 1 pound 50 each and because, although if I was washing up, I'd take care of those glasses that were expensive, you can't always expect everyone else to do that. So when you heard a wine glass smash, that was only 1 pound 50 you didn't hurt as much as knowing it was 20 quid exactly.

Speaker 1 1:09:05

And that's where learning, yeah, and then, like you'd see these beautiful plates that were like 50 pound each and you go, nah, I can't do that, I've got to start thinking outside the box. And again your creativity kicks in, going okay, I can't afford these plates, but what else can I do? What else can I use? How else can I present this food in the most amazing way without spending 50 quid a plate? So that was tough, a massive learning curve. I remember the first day that we opened, really dead excited, couldn't wait, and then forgot to put money in the till as a float, so someone came up first, person £10 note bought a pint had no change in the till I had to run down to the co-op to get some change.

Speaker 1 1:09:47

But that was all part of learning, that was all part of understanding, that was all part of you know understanding how to open a restaurant.

Speaker 2 1:09:53

I had to run a restaurant what do you think's the biggest thing that you did learn from that time about? Not food and the preparation, because you're already very experienced in that. About the business. If you could pinpoint from one thing what was the key takeaway from that five years that you took away about running your creativity as a chef, as a business?

Speaker 1 1:10:13

I think at the time it was how to man manage people and how to treat people slightly differently.

Speaker 2 1:10:20

We've spoken like this before as well, because obviously your passion is food and you want the whole experience to be around that. But you had problems with waiting staff that were only there for a summer and they're not as invested in it as you are and they're not looking at it as no. You really need to sell the, the fact that this is an artisan product, that we've used the finest bits of this, the finest, and they're like oh yeah, but I just want to earn my hourly rate and go out yeah, in the uk hospitality is not seen as a career like it is in other countries, so you're only as good as a team that you've got around you.

Speaker 1 1:10:54

And I was obviously very passionate about food. I probably wasn't. I didn't come across in the nicest way at times previously and I had to learn.

Speaker 2 1:11:05

In what sense? Just because you were so passionate about food that you didn't want to.

Speaker 1 1:11:09

Yeah, I mean, we've all seen, we've all seen gordon ramsay, we've all seen boiling point, we've all seen the way chefs can talk to people and that that is simply just the passion coming out, because for example, surely a result of high pressure environment? It is, yeah but when you spend most of yesterday and today preparing and cooking food for then someone to pick up a plate that holds it at an angle or takes it too fast so everything falls over, there's no.

Speaker 1 1:11:37

There's no care and attention like what you've just done for the last two days to prepare everything for could be ruined down the chain by a bad server or someone just walked out and just slammed it on a table or they're not as invested in you, so you would naturally get frustrated because they're not as invested as you are and you think they should be and and actually you know they're there just to earn a few quid, like I was when I was back in the day.

Speaker 2 1:12:03

Yeah, exactly.

From Pop-up to Restaurant Owner

Speaker 1 1:12:04

I just wanted a few quid to go and spend at the pub. I was expecting everyone to be the same as me, so I was learning. Actually, not everyone is the same as me and I have to treat everyone individually. Everyone ticks differently and you've got to try and find what makes them tick to make them do a better job for you so your people skills, yeah, so straight away learn yeah, and over five years, I'd say yes.

Speaker 1 1:12:30

I learned a lot about financial stuff, about reading pnls and and accounts and learning about pnl, pnl profit and loss fluffy created, so yeah, so, basically, you know you profit and loss accounts and you learn that. But what was the biggest learning curve for me was staff and how to look after them and how to treat them. And I didn't always get it right, you know, but you're only as good as a team you've got around you.

Speaker 2 1:12:58

So, and I imagine, until you're in that situation where you are the boss, until you're in that position, that's where you learn, like you say yeah when you've got to do it I just remember the one day I had a really bad day the day before.

Speaker 1 1:13:12

We didn't get it right. I went home. I was really like pissed off and I was like god, like what am I doing? The next day I woke up I was like, right, I'm gonna have a really good day today, I'm gonna be super positive, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna smash the day, I'm gonna do really well. So you get in your car and you drive to work and you arrive at work and then you just see the bins overflowing. So you're like, right, no worries, it's not a problem, sort it out. Someone's probably left the bin bag on the floor rather than putting it in the bin. Okay, it's fine, it's not a problem, I'm gonna sort this out. And so you're picking up all the rubbish, make it all tidy. I even put some cardboard in the bin and I got in the bin and I was stamping on it to push it all down. So I'm like, done.

Speaker 1 1:13:57

You go into the building. You think, well, I'll have a coffee. Oh, sorry, chef, the coffee machine's not working. What, what do you mean? It's not working? Oh yeah, it broke two days ago. Why am I finding out about this now? Have you called anyone? Have you told anyone what you're doing? If a customer comes in and wants a coffee, oh, we're running over to costa to get them a coffee. I'm like, so you can imagine, I've started off my day here. I had a couple of days off or I came in or whatever, and this day I'm like I'm gonna be super positive and the universe is just not.

Speaker 2 1:14:33

And then it's like I'm all right, okay.

Speaker 1 1:14:35

Oh yeah, the engineer's coming out this morning nine o'clock, right, is he definitely coming out at nine? So my natural instinct is to tear this person's head off for not telling me that the coffee machine, and also to tear his head off because he's going over to cost a coffee, to bring coffee over here, and I'm like this is not what we do. So they're automatically doing things that they think they should be doing and they're probably in their mind, probably thinking well, I don't want to let the customer down.

Speaker 2 1:15:00

Exactly.

Speaker 1 1:15:02

So, okay, it's not a problem. So I went to the office. I thought, right, I'll just do what I need to do and then I'll go in the kitchen. Then you get a phone call. Oh really sorry, chef. Uh, my boyfriend split up with me last night and I don't, I can't come in today and you're like okay, well, you know, maybe if you come into work you might get a bit better no, no I can't my mental health is all over the place.

Speaker 1 1:15:27

I can't. I see like so you're starting to boil at this point, because you already know, I feel like saying your mental health.

Speaker 2 1:15:34

how do you think mine's feeling? Yeah?

Speaker 1 1:15:35

and you start to go okay, yeah, well, you know, just take the time you need. So yeah, it didn't always go to plan and I probably wasn't always the nicest, but there's always a back note to the stress and the pressure that you're under, and not only that. You're always trying to think, god, am I going to get paid at the end of this month if we don't have a good week this week? I'm going to pay everyone, pay all the suppliers, but I don't get anything because there's no money left in the park. So you're always under that pressure as well, and so running a business is very, very different to being just a chef, and and actually we did well Five years we did well.

Speaker 2 1:16:11

I was going to say you did five years. You had awards, recognition, the Times top 30 restaurants to have a Sunday lunch. It's like you're not scrimping on quality. No, we didn't, but it was tough you know, yeah, and again in the pattern that seems to be evolving with you, mike. You ran your own restaurant for five years, great reputation doing modern british cuisine, but then it's like right, new challenge and covid hit and it's sort of, should we say, the stars align. That it was a good time to get out?

Speaker 1 1:16:38

yeah, I think so, and the other pressure that we had after covid was we lost a lot of staff in the uk. The industry lost a lot of staff. Everyone went back home. Some really good people that were foreign, that worked in this country, that saw hospitality as a career they all just went back home and they didn't come back after covid. So we lost some really good people after covid. It was extremely busy, uncontrollably busy, because everyone was cooped up inside cabin fever and just wanted to get out yeah, and that first few months was just chaos and then after that it dropped.

Speaker 1 1:17:15

It dropped off the face of the earth and it was just very, very quiet and I just felt like it was the right time. I felt like it was, yeah, I've done what I've said I wanted to do.

Speaker 2 1:17:25

I've done what I wanted to as you say, you've built this successful business restaurant, and sometimes you can just go right. I've done that now and I want to do something else.

Speaker 1 1:17:33

Yeah, and actually looking at it now, I mean I'm talking probably three or four years ago, now that I've moved on, but looking at it now, it's probably the best thing that happened to me, because I think they've estimated 6,000 restaurants to close this year, in 2025. And that is simply because costs are rising. There's no help from the government. We're not going to get into the political side of it today, but it is a nightmare to even think about running a restaurant.

Speaker 2 1:18:01

And that must be tough for anyone who's got as much passion about food and hospitality, say, as you have. What sort of future are they seeing? That's not a question I want you to ask, I'm just throwing it out there, spitballing. If that's the situation in their industry, someone who's got so much passion about food and cooking and creating beautiful cuisine doesn't leave them with much hope or much aspiration.

Speaker 1 1:18:24

No.

Speaker 2 1:18:25

So, like you say, perhaps a good time for you to get out and it sounds like from just what I'm hearing that business side, the coffee machine, the rubbish, the staffing, the man, management, all that said, you're slowly losing your passion for food a little bit and it's all not losing it, but it's been overtaken by the management, the business side of things, making sure the business is profitable. Are we getting the right suppliers? Have they delivered this?

Speaker 1 1:18:50

it must be a lot it was, and and then you know, you got the added pressure of trying to please as many people as you can, and then people that are part of it. Then, well, why don't we buy in frozen fish? Or why don't we buy in the pies from the butcher down the road? And and that, to me, was definitely the final sign off, and that was like I'm done because that's not what I'm about, and ultimately, you, you've got to make a decision. Are you there to make money or are you there because this is a passion of yours and you believe in something and I believe in something?

Speaker 2 1:19:22

yeah, and you chose passion and I chose my passion, and that's what I've done my whole career and this is what's interesting, though because you sold your shares in the Butcher Social, wash your hands of it. Almost it's done. You lost your passion and then you decided that you're going to almost take a step backwards from being the boss and you went and worked at the Wild Rabbit restaurant. They had just lost their Michelin star right and you were just working with better produce. Can you talk to us a little bit about about that, about how the wild rabbit sort of reinstilled that inspiration around food for you? Obviously?

Speaker 1 1:19:55

when I left the butcher's social and called it a day, which was, you know, good timing, and I saw an opportunity at the wild rabbit. I heard about the wild rabbit for quite a long time and part of the banford group, so Dalesford Farm, the Wild Rabbit, the Maytime Fox, they've got quite a few places.

Speaker 2 1:20:15

Within your world it's quite famous.

Speaker 1 1:20:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all in the Cotswolds area. Lady Bamford owns it, lord Bamford owns JCB and I've seen it for quite a long time and I do know when it lost its start it was a shame, but there was a chef, sam, who joined and and he worked at some amazing places. And I thought, you know what, if I'm going to choose to go and work somewhere, let's go and work somewhere that's really good, that's working with some amazing produce. Daylesford Farm has its own farm. We're bringing in fresh produce every day off Daylesford, working with some amazing suppliers. And I thought, you know what, if I'm going to do it, let's go for it. And ultimately, I've worked in some amazing places, but I've never worked in a place that's won a Michelin star and I thought the wild rabbit would be perfect to join, to try and win a star, to be part of a team that wins. It is very different to working in a restaurant that already has it.

Speaker 1 1:21:12

And I thought, wow, that would be amazing. And so, yeah, I just decided to go and work with them. It was going back to working unsociable hours and long hours, and obviously on top of that, traveling.

Speaker 2 1:21:25

So a big decision really to try and reinstill that passion in yourself.

Speaker 1 1:21:29

Yeah, definitely. I mean, like I say, you know, did you see it as a step backwards? No, no, no, I never. I never think about going backwards. I always think as, as opportunities and I don't think as negatives. I don't think as things that weaknesses. I always think of opportunities and for me, that was an opportunity to get back into it, to get back on the stove. Like working, having your own restaurant, you do lose a lot of like. You're cooking a little bit, but you've been taken away constantly to fix the plumbing or do the pension or do the VAT return or whatever, and you lose focus. So my focus wanted to be back into on the stove, cooking good food, producing good food and being part of a team that wanted to win a star back. You know, I was there for only a short period of time. I loved it, I thought it was great, I got my passion back and then, obviously, I was approached by someone else.

Speaker 2 1:22:27

And this is where it leads us to your current employer. Yeah, I've got to be a bit careful about this, haven't we? Because it's so exclusive now, where you work, that we're not even allowed to name it and it's somewhere that shall not be named. Shall not be named, but it's an establishment that's got multiple restaurants, different styles. You cater to celebrities, pop stars, high proud business people. It's very, very, very exclusive. As I say, we can't even name it, and they headhunted you right? Yeah, from the Wild Rabbit.

Speaker 1 1:22:58

Yeah. So I just had a random message saying we've got this that's coming up, would you like to be part of it? And I was like, yeah, why not? It sounds amazing. And ultimately, because I'd got my passion back amazing, and ultimately, because I've got my passion back, I could see while I was at the wild rabbit that there was certain things missing, that I thought they're not going to win their star back and I'm not going to go into too much detail. It was a fantastic place, but just my gut feeling was that it's not going to get it and I didn't want to carry on staying there, and not necessarily wasting my time, but just I just thought am I going to carry on learning? Am I going to get where I want to be or do I?

Speaker 2 1:23:35

take this opportunity like someone that wants to develop and wants to learn and wants to grow constantly and wants to be moving on to the next thing yeah, so.

Speaker 1 1:23:43

So going to my new employer.

Speaker 2 1:23:46

I've been there for two years and I oversee pretty much most of the catering there you're one of the executive chefs at the establishment that shall not be named, which sounds so funny and people are probably thinking like why? But it is so exclusive, isn't it?

Speaker 1 1:24:03

it is and whilst you know, I I still just I kind of put that to one side I still love, love cooking, I love being involved and I'm involved heavily with menus and development and each outlet. So we've got Japanese, chinese, we've got classic French brasserie. There's lots of different, all within the same.

Speaker 2 1:24:25

All within the same, I would say complex.

Speaker 1 1:24:27

Complex, yeah, and I've just loved every minute of learning a different style of outlet, like I've always worked in small, independent restaurants and to do, my first big corporate place is nuts, because not only are you learning different cuisines again, you're also learning how a big corporate company operates.

Speaker 2 1:24:50

This is where you were learning the things, like you said how to prepare the peaking duck and yeah, so the yeah, the peaking duck, some really intricate dim sum that you, that I think.

Speaker 1 1:25:00

I just think all of it is fantastic and and I I'll go in and spend the day with the chinese chefs. I'll go in and spend a day over at the one of the other restaurants.

Speaker 2 1:25:10

That's all cooking on open fire and like we said, that continued learning and developing your skill set. As a result of that, you were nominated as as a national chef of the year right yeah, so I was nominated as national chef of the year.

Speaker 1 1:25:22

I got through to the final stages. Didn't quite make it to the final, which was a shame. Weirdly, I had another email this week to enter in again to what was the criteria for that concept?

Speaker 2 1:25:34

did you have to design a menu or a dish? So you have to design a three course menu.

Speaker 1 1:25:39

Usually it's a sustainable fish starter or shellfish starter, the main course, using new zealand lamb, for example, or they gave you the criteria they give you a criteria, so fish style, lamb main, and then you.

Speaker 2 1:25:51

And then you can interpret that.

Private Chef to Sports Stars

Speaker 1 1:25:53

however, yeah, and then I think the dessert at the time was a chocolate dessert using a savory twist. So you would then write a menu, you'd have to do methods, you'd have to do recipes, you'd have to do pictures of each dish, and then you submit all of that to the panel and then they take everything into consideration and then they shortlist you, which I got shortlisted and then I had to do, then I had to do the video, and then you get shortlisted again into the final 10. So out of like hundreds of people, I got into the top 20, probably then shortlisted the final 10 that did a cook-off in london.

Speaker 2 1:26:32

That's amazing.

Speaker 1 1:26:32

Has that been something that's important to you, that quest for sort of I don't want to call it accolades or awards, or you know, I think I'll go through phases of it'd be nice to like I say it would nice to be part of a team to win a michelin star not work, just have it go and work there. I think the the sense of achievement, of being part of a team that wins it is great and doing little things like that. The national chef of the year probably is the biggest chef competition in the uk at the moment and part of me wants to do it, but there's always a bit of me that it's a lot of commitment and obviously, with a new young family and and all that sort of stuff, it again those two heads are banging against each other, going well, should I do this, should I do that?

Speaker 2 1:27:20

and so that's kind of where I'm at at the moment but your current employer and your job at the moment does facilitate you to have some of your own more freelance things yeah so you're a private chef outside of this establishment for celebrities and sports personalities, for example, professional golfer justin rose. You're his personal chef, yeah, you tell a bit, a little bit about that and how that evolved. Um, yes, we've sort of gone full circle back to your full passion of sport. Now you're cooking for sports people yeah.

Speaker 1 1:27:49

So basically, when that one time that I went to visit manchester city, I met the exec chef there, a really good friend of mine now, andy wardle, who also cooks for justin, and there'll be occasions back then where you know andy would say I can't do this weekend, would you be able to do it? And and we kind of rotate it between us really, and this year will be for me more on the tournament, so the british open which is at port rush this year, or the scottish open at arch fields and the bmw pga championship which is at wentworth in september. We kind of take it in turns and then we'll, you know, help feed him through a tournament, and is that specific?

Speaker 2 1:28:36

do you have to think about things like about what are we feeding him that's gonna keep him going for 18 holes, or designing menus around that, or is it much more simplistic than that?

Speaker 1 1:28:46

no, just making sure he gets his home comforts and the meals that he likes yeah, cooking for Justin and other sports people is a bit of a balance of what they like and what they don't like. So also you've got to think about nutrition. You've got to think about they're going out and playing 18 holes. It's a long day. Sometimes they can tee off at 7 o'clock in the morning, so their breakfast might. I'll have to get up and get breakfast by 5 am, for example. They're not going to want anything too heavy at 5 am, so it might just be some nice yogurt, granola, homemade granola. I'd make everything from scratch. And then it might be that they've got a late tea off time at two o'clock in the afternoon so they can have a bit more of a substantial breakfast at eight, nine o'clock in the morning and then they'll go off to the course or whatever.

Speaker 1 1:29:33

Equally, there's another golfer, gary woodland, who's american, who I looked after a couple years ago and he'd eat like five bowls of crunchy nut cornflakes and I'd be in the kitchen with my eggs and everything ready and blah, blah, blah and, and then he'd just come in and smash five bowls of crunchy nut and go cheers, mikey, see you later. It's just like great. Wow, yeah, it's good. And, gary, he'd love his Mexican food and all that jazz.

Speaker 2 1:29:58

Some people just like their creature comforts. Some people just like a load of bowls of crunchy nut cornflakes. That's it, yeah. Is that rewarding with your sports background, is it just a different challenge for you doing something like that?

Speaker 1 1:30:11

challenge for you doing something like that. Do you know, I think, again, being part of a bit of a team, that, although it's not me playing golf, the hope is that justin will be in a competition and do really really well and hopefully win a competition, and I can say that I've been a small part of that. Nutrition is really important in sport and if he goes and wins the masters or he goes and wins the british open and you've been there all week looking after his food and his nutrition and making sure.

Speaker 1 1:30:36

I think it'd be amazing. We haven't quite done it yet, but we've been close. But it'd be just like an unbelievable feeling to be part of the team that wins that award.

Speaker 2 1:30:46

And another great experience a career that's been full of experiences. Experience to a career that's been full of experiences. We've covered a lot of things in this podcast lots of experiences, lots of travels, lots of inputs, lots of inspiration. But I've got a random question. If you had to create a dish that represents your life, what would it be?

Speaker 1 1:31:03

oh, my god, create a dish that represents my life. I think it's got to be simplicity life. I think it's got to be simplicity. So something for me. My life has been very chaotic at times and my career has been very pressurized and I've always tried to keep things simple. I've always tried to keep keep things real and use good produce and I think if I was to create a dish now, it always changes as well like different parts of your life. You know, if you was to create a dish now, it always changes as well Like different parts of your life. You know, if you were to ask me five years ago, it'd probably be very different.

Speaker 2 1:31:35

Well, as I say, it's the result of all those inputs, isn't it? Five years ago it might have been classic British, Now it might be something Chinese or Asian or whatever. I mean, have you got anything? Is that quite a difficult question? Is it like asking a director what their favorite movie is?

Speaker 1 1:31:49

is it one of those sorts of yeah, it is really because, again, I go through phases like at the moment, I really, really want the most amazing sunday roast. I really crave that at the moment and I think every element on a sunday roast is very, very simple, but to put it all together is quite difficult. So, like the roast potatoes, to make the most amazing roast potatoes is very simple, but yet so many places don't get it right. To get the gravy right, get it perfect, is very simple, but so many places get it wrong, and I think sunday roast is one for me.

Speaker 2 1:32:26

Yeah what about any future goals for you? We've gone down memory lane. Has this inspired anything new to think about? Do you know?

Future Plans and Culinary Philosophy

Speaker 1 1:32:34

honestly, just I really, really I fancy doing a pop-up again. I really fancy doing something just off the cuff really creative, even if it's a bit wacky or whatever I'd love to do something like that what cuisine would you choose?

Speaker 2 1:32:48

Would you put it under a theme or would you?

Speaker 1 1:32:50

I'd quite like to do so. I've obviously been learning a lot about dim sum and and the small like dumplings and stuff, and I think to take that technique but to put a bit of a british twist on it. Cool, you know, I think you know a sulong bao which is like a little pork dumpling. So sulong bao has minced pork, set jelly and then you wrap it in the dumpling and then when you steam it the jelly turns to liquid and when you eat it pops in your mouth. It's absolutely delicious. So to put an english, british twist on that, so maybe like a short rib, braised, picked down, and then underneath it like a beef consomme that sets like a jelly, then when you reheat it it bursts in your mouth. So I think, taking that influence and putting a bit of a british twist, to it.

Speaker 2 1:33:38

I think that's something that you'll aim to do in the future, I think so.

Speaker 1 1:33:42

I think it's getting to that time now where I'm kind of itching to do something again.

Speaker 2 1:33:46

okay, so we we do have a closing tradition on the creative noahland podcast. We like people to give us some sort of inspiring quote that they've perhaps been inspired by in their career and also another guest that you think would be an interesting guest to come on the Creative Noirland podcast.

Speaker 1 1:34:04

Cool. So a quote said by a previous chef that I used to work with is there's no such thing as perfection, only the idea of it, and that, for me, is completely true. Even if you have something that you think is so perfect, there will always be something that you could change, that. There is always going to be something that you could tweak or add or take away that might make it even better, but you don't know that until you try it. And that's what always keeps you going as a chef the idea of perfection. And the idea of perfection is what keeps you driven um, so yeah, and what about another guest?

Speaker 1 1:34:43

so this is a bit left field and I think I said to you before, but a really good friend of mine, caroline robinson. She is in the world of acupuncture and the elements and she holistic sort of holistic and she is very, very, very good at what she does. And what she'll do is she'll kind of look at you as a person and try and work out ways of making you feel better, and that in itself is quite creative to think about. Okay, well, you know, you might have anxiety, you might have health issues, you might be struggling to get pregnant or whatever, and then she'll come up with a way of how to help you. It goes back into really ancient Chinese medicine of how acupuncture or different hol holistic methods work to help people and I think she's done an amazing job and I think she deserves a bit of credit. Cool, hopefully you can do something with her.

Speaker 2 1:35:39

Well, I mean, as I say, we're always interested to just have interesting and inspiring people on.

Speaker 2 1:35:44

She's very inspiring, cool, definitely Perfect. Well, mike, I just want to say a massive thank you and once again hopefully we spoke a little bit about a new family Hopefully, your boys and your two week old new little boy, with my dear friend Grace, louis George, will be able to listen to this and go oh, that's my dad. That's how he did this. So, once again, mate, thank you ever so much for doing this. You've been an absolute star. Appreciate it. Thank you, then. That should start, appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 2 1:36:10

Thank you for listening to the creative noah land podcast. If you found anything inspiring or useful in this episode, please consider subscribing or maybe sharing the episode with a friend. Anything you can do to help promote and support creative noah land is so beneficial, and I really appreciate it. Check out the website and sign up to the newsletter to be the first to know of everything that's going on here in Creative Nowaland. Thanks again for listening and until next time, explore, inspire and create. Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way, and so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question. What do I desire?