#0024 JACK QUDDUS - LIGHTING THE WAY TO SUCCESS!

Welcome to The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

Now, one of the things I love most about doing this podcast is getting to share the stories of people who take their creativity and actually turn it into something real. And today’s guest has done that in the most electrifying way possible—literally. Jack Quddus, the founder of Neon Cow

At just 23 years old, Jack has already achieved what many entrepreneurs spend decades chasing. He’s created custom neon signs for huge names like Gymshark, Selfridges, Harvey Nichols, Premier League football clubs, NFL teams, and even rapper Ja Rule.

But Jack’s story isn’t just about building signs—it’s about building a vision. Starting out at his mum’s kitchen table, Jack taught himself everything he knows through sheer determination, curiosity, and a relentless work ethic. His entrepreneurial spark was lit long before Neon Cow, from selling sweets in the school playground to learning vital business lessons from his grandparents, Derek and Pauline, who’ve run their Birmingham corner shop for over 60 years.

In this episode, we explore Jack’s journey from property finance to a solo trip to New York that changed everything, leading him to leave the corporate world behind and take the leap from side hustle into running his own creative business. 

We discuss what it's taken to get to where Jack is.  The non-negotiables, the power of 1% marginal gains, the importance of self-belief and gratitude, and why focusing on your own path is key to long-term success.

Jack’s story is a reminder that extraordinary things can start small. But if you’re willing to put in the work, the possibilities are endless.

Whether you’re dreaming of starting a side hustle, building a brand, or just looking for some motivation, this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss.

Check out the links below to the Neon Cow Instagram and the Website as you listen. Maybe ry their new AI 

NEON COW INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/neoncowco/

NEON COW WEBSITE: https://theneoncow.co.uk/

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noirland podcast. On this episode, we're joined by a young, creative entrepreneur with big ambitions who's got the drive, business acumen and, most importantly, the work ethic to make them happen. Founder of Neon Cow, jack Kudus. Now, if you follow us on social media, you might have already seen the new Explore, inspire, create neon sign that we've got in the studio. Well, jack's company made it and I was so inspired when I met him that I had to get him to come on the podcast. All self-taught at his mum's kitchen table, and at only 23 years old, jack has already created work for huge brands like Gymshark, selfridges, harvey Nichols, premier League football clubs, nfl teams and for celebrities and even rappers like Ja Rule. But whether it's a huge brand or even just a small podcast like this, at the heart of what Jack and Neon Cow do is help you tell your story, deliver your message and elevate your brand.

Speaker 1 1:08

In this episode, we discuss where Jack's work ethic and business acumen come from starting out selling sweets in a playground, the lessons that he's learned from his grandparents, derek and Pauline, not going to university, and how a solo trip to New York would lead to him leaving the lucrative world of property finance to turn his creative side hustle into his almost inevitable path of becoming a self-employed businessman and brand, now a long way from his mum's kitchen table.

Speaker 1 1:40

Neon Cow has grown massively and Jack has an incredible amount of wisdom to share with anyone looking to well do their thing, whatever that is. We talk about the non-negotiables, the one percent marginal gains, self-belief, gratitude, focusing on your own path and how you have to put in the work because no one's going to give it to you. Look, you don't meet many 23-year-olds with even half the drive and determination that Jack has, and you know how we like to shine a light on people doing interesting and inspiring things here in Creative Nowhere Land, so I hope that Jack's story can inspire you in the same way that it inspired me. Anyway, enough of me, let's get into it. Jack, thank you for doing the Creative Noir podcast. It seems appropriate because you are the first recording in the new studio underneath your magnificent sign.

Speaker 2 2:56

We like that. That's nice. Thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1 2:58

My absolute pleasure. Thank you for creating such a statement piece. That is going to be absolutely epic. Moving forward with season two should be cool, jack.

Speaker 2 3:08

Talk to me about your grandparents yeah, so interesting way to start but I think really relevant to start that point. So my grandparents they're derrick and pauline and they're known all around the country for having the longest standing business ran by a married couple that's in Birmingham. They've been going 61 years this year. In their little corner shop in Birmingham they sell plants, fruit and veg just the two of them and I was fortunate enough and lucky enough to be exposed to that environment, whether it was serving people in the shop, counting change, with my granddad going to the warehouse getting the plants out of a morning, even about half eight in the morning Primary school, I don't know how old you are there six, seven years old it's getting the plants out. What that teaches you is a great deal.

Speaker 1 3:58

What do you think it's taught you, bearing in mind that now you are a 23-year-old creative entrepreneur? That now you are a 23 year old creative entrepreneur? I know we'll talk about the fact that you possibly didn't consider yourself a creative, but, dude, you are one of the most driven young men I've met in a long time and that's part of the reason why I wanted to get you, not only because you've made incredible signs and it's they're super funky, but also because you have got this drive a 23 year old with your drive and determination and entrepreneurial skills. That's what I wanted to get to with your grandparents.

Speaker 2 4:31

That's where it comes from right without a doubt, yeah, without a doubt, I think the tiny things that the small things, such as being in the shop and labeling products, making sure they're facing the front, their tiny little sales trick, which they've just carried through with me to my own business. And I think, growing up, when you're surrounded by that environment, it's inevitable that something like having my own business is going to happen. My cousin as well. He's got a brewery, one of the best in the country, so it's no coincidence that these things happen. My nan and granddad's 62 years. There's loads of lessons, such as getting up every single morning whether you feel good, whether you feel bad. There's non-negotiables. The work ethic yeah, 100%. They have one day off a year Christmas Day, really. Is that it? That's genuinely my granddad's coming up to 90 now.

Speaker 1 5:27

And my nan's about 86 86 years old and you all still pull together.

Speaker 2 5:28

When I picked up the sign, you were working in the shop yeah, we all do all the grandkids, we all help out, we all do our part. It's just our way of returning the favor, in a way, because they probably didn't know at the time, but they were shaping their grandkids and, fortunate enough, I'm lucky to be in a good position. I've got my own business, I've left my career in finance to to do this and I guess, without, like I said earlier, without being exposed to that, you don't know what direction you'd go in. So, yeah, I'd say that's crucial.

Speaker 1 5:57

Did that directly give you any advice? Or was it more just being surrounded by the inspiration of people in business and entrepreneurship as a whole? Because it's not only that. Your mum's a nurse, right, so she's got this incredible work ethic as well yeah, correct, so yeah, so my granddad's a type where he wasn't.

Speaker 2 6:16

He's not going to give you direct advice, but it's more of a thing. Watch what he does and that's what we'll say a lot. He's very sort of old fashioned. He'll know right from wrong. He'll know this is what works, this is what sells Sometimes, play it safe. Sometimes you'll try more experimental things in the shop. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Speaker 2 6:34

But to be going 62 years, it's no coincidence. And without the work ethic of that, yeah, there's no way you'd go for 62 years. And my mum, yeah, she's a nurse. She's doing night shifts. So obviously me growing up, I'd probably be up and out the house by about seven in the morning maybe. My mum would probably then go back home to sleep and then when I got dropped off to the shop after seven, I'd then get the plants out. My dad works for the council. He'd be up early morning as well, so everyone was up at it essentially. Yeah, and that's still to me to this day. Even though I'm on my own bus, I still get up at certain fixed times, non-negotiables. That's the best way, best way to put it, matt.

Speaker 1 7:17

I like that, non-negotiables. Every day you've got to do those things that make you incrementally better the next day, correct.

Speaker 2 7:23

And it's one thing that Absolutely love that. Loads of other podcasts talk about it. But that 1% marginal gains that's something that's been really with me recently, because a lot of people are aware that 1% marginal gains work in that direction, but guess what, they also go that direction as well. So I'm always conscious of that fact. But yeah, that's really, it's just about getting up working because no one's gonna no one's gonna give it to you in a way you have to.

Speaker 1 7:50

But, as you say, you're very lucky to have been brought up in that environment where everyone was so work orientated that, yeah, one incredible thing to have your grandparents being like the longest running that's so cool.

Speaker 2 8:01

It's proud, everyone's proud, and in their little community they're sort of the pillar, yeah, of their community. Everyone. People are coming to the shop and they might not even buy things. They'll just come and chat to my nan and granddad. They'll have a tea cake, if you're lucky.

Speaker 1 8:15

I was lucky enough to meet granddad. He was an absolute legend.

Speaker 2 8:18

He popped it. So yeah, it's, and that's what it's about, that everyone's welcome, everyone comes in, and that carries through to me to this day. I can talk to people. I can when I'm on deliveries. I'll happily have a conversation with someone. Could be anything but that, yeah, just just fortunate I think fortune is the word that really so lucky can I ask you a question what are the other 23 year olds in your world like?

Speaker 1 8:40

are you surrounded by people that are like-minded, or are you surrounded by, dare I say, a stereotypical 23-year-old group who just want to go out, party, spank their cash, live for the weekend? I'm only judging people by my standards, what I was probably like when I was 22, 23. I'm just intrigued because you talk about incrementally better. That's a James Clear, atames clear atomic habits thing, and also the people that you surround yourself with are a big influence. So I know you mentioned your cousin. You've got family. What's your friendship circle like? What are they doing?

Speaker 2 9:14

yeah, friendship is the same really. I've got a friend. He's got his own barbershop, same as me his own bus and I think surrounding well, I don't think I know surrounding yourself with people like that, even when I go to have a trim every two, three weeks just having that one and a half hour conversation, it makes all the difference because that person gets you and guess what? You get them as well. And don't get me wrong, not everyone's perfect. I've got some people that might not be on the same trajectory as me, they might not be too bothered about their career, they might just be living in the now, enjoying today. But everyone's on their own path. As long as you know what's right and what's wrong. I wouldn't let any distractions get in the way of me. Essentially, I've got friends that go to university, finish in uni. I didn't go to university.

Speaker 1 10:03

We'll talk about that, because there is a progression to this story, isn't there? Yeah, correct because, knowing what you do, now you make these incredible neon signs. It's self-taught, which again we'll talk about as well, which I think is very commendable. But obviously, growing up, how you've grown up, your thought was like I mean, I know you said to me oh, when I was six years old, I wanted to be a fireman or something, but then after that it was finance, banking, entrepreneurship.

Speaker 2 10:27

15 years old, you had your own clothing brand called talk to me about that, yeah 76 was it 76, yeah, so 76 that was my clothing brand I'd say that was probably my first business. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't like a business as you know it today, so limited company, stuff like that because you'd already actually probably much younger.

Speaker 1 10:45

You've been selling, you've been the classic selling sweets.

Speaker 2 10:47

Go with granddad to the wholesaler sell sweets probably making 10 times more than all the other kids yeah, yeah it's, but I don't think, like I say, that just comes from being in the shop, though I knew, okay, people are going to the canteen for this. Okay, they might be going up the road or to the high street for this. Okay, why don't I just stuck that? And I've got my granddad who goes to the cash and carry. I'll go with him anyway. So I might as well just pick up a box and see if it works.

Speaker 2 11:07

And yeah, that was what I was doing in secondary school and it just felt. It just felt natural. And don't get me wrong, I wasn't the only person doing it, there was other people doing it as well. But I always remember just this feeling of I think I told you about it earlier.

Speaker 2 11:18

It's, there's this sort of pineapple in the living room and it's a money box. Yeah, it's basically a money box. Obviously, it's not real pineapple, just a disclaimer, and it's like a nice piece of art and you can take the top off, yeah. And what I used to do was, after I've got all my pound coins from the day or for the week, I'll just pop it in there and then pop the head back on the pineapple. Nobody knew it was there, but I knew it was there and as soon as you could see it knew it was there. But I knew it was there and as soon as you could see it build up, it was just, yeah, it was inspiring. Because then, guess what, once that built up, a certain portion of that would have to go and get the next box.

Speaker 1 11:52

But that is not your average. Six or seven, eight year olds thinking in the playground but going. Yeah, actually, if I compound this, I can buy more stock and then sell more.

Speaker 2 12:02

And then I'll make more.

Speaker 1 12:03

Oh, look at all the sweets I've got. I can stuff them in my face.

Speaker 2 12:07

That was in secondary school, so that was probably when I was about 13, 14.

Speaker 2 12:09

Okay, that was when I was about 13, 14. But going back to that, 6, 7, like I said earlier, in the shop, half eight in the morning getting the flowers out for my nan and granddad's, what that does is it shows you, okay, if you put a good display out of flowers, we're hopefully gonna have a good day, and that was always the aim. You didn't know if he was gonna have a good day, you'd see, maybe four o'clock, okay, is there less flowers to collect? That was always the simplest way to do it. And yeah, like I said earlier, it's the inevitable progression that I was going to eventually have my own business and my first taste of a business was having my clothing brand and you could call it creative, you could call it design your own thing. And would you have called yourself a creative back then? No, I would call myself. I would. I wouldn't have labeled myself, but I would have known deep down that I'm essentially a little mini businessman in a way. Yeah, I wouldn't call myself a creative is that?

Speaker 1 12:59

because creativity is often thought of art, painting, writing, yeah, music, all those things, whereas actually creativity with a capital, c is just problem solving. These kids want sweets. These kids want a t-shirt.

Speaker 2 13:14

That's cool, it's problem you spot and I think you've hit the nail on the head there. That's why I wouldn't call myself creative, because I have told myself, or over the years it's been thought to me, that, okay, yeah, that's what it is, it's painting, it's drawing. Um, I was never really good at drawing, but I guess, yeah, solutions, and that's where I am good.

Speaker 1 13:33

I'm good at that you must have been designing. You don't just sell a blank t-shirt for seven, six. What was on it? Presumably a seven and a six, it all stemmed from.

Speaker 2 13:42

I was so when I got my. I remember when I got my first paycheck. So when I turned about 17, my mum paid for it was like a little lifeguarding course. She thought you know what we're gonna get you doing this. So everyone else was in school or might have been that transition over to college, but I was actually. I was a lifeguard at that time and I was doing well at that age and I think as soon as I got my first paycheck as we all do you know, you don't always make the best decisions I went to Harvey Nichols and I bought this sort of designer I think at least I envisioned it as designer.

Speaker 2 14:10

It's like this little bomber jacket and, but I don't know. A few months down the line, you later realize all these companies are all. It's all the same material, it's all the same t-shirts. So why don't I just buy these t-shirts by Bork design what I want to wear and just wear it. And you know what? If I sell it and create a brand, so be it. And then that's where the natural progression started. I then put it on my Instagram, social media and people saying, yeah, jack, we'll have one, we'll have one. And then, before you know you're selling out a few shirts, a few different designs. Then I did about four or five different projects, yeah. So so I learned Photoshop from scratch, illustrator from scratch and yeah, I think, as probably a lot of people do, you just learn as you go along. There was no one in my family that really knew Photoshop or Illustrator, but I just knew okay, if we want the best designs, I've got to do it myself. And now, thinking about it, I probably was a creative.

Speaker 1 15:01

I didn't quite know about it, definitely yeah, I mean, I mean, but it's hindsight, isn't it? At the time you're just thinking oh, I could probably make a few quid I can design some cool t-shirts for myself, but you've taught yourself all these processes of designing, making, producing a t-shirt. I'm definitely creative jack you flatter me now not at all, not at all.

Speaker 1 15:22

So you've obviously adopted this entrepreneurship and the logical route, like you say, is college, where you went on to do business and finance. Is that right, correct? Yeah, business and finance. And just what? Wanted to push it forward, wanted to go to university. Should we talk about uni? Yeah, of course, because that was quite a turning point for you, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 15:40

Yeah, that was pivotal. I for you, wasn't it? Yeah, that was pivotal. I think in college and even in secondary school, when I chose business as my BTEC, I just found myself writing pages and pages, for it could be answers to questions or it could be how do you solve this problem as a business? And I was just. I just found myself absolutely loads of writing. I had loads of stuff in my head and I thought this just comes natural to me and obviously that's been around my grandparents, obviously. And then when you go through to college, you obviously pick a few subjects and I chose business, finance and ICT. Business and finance were the main things I wanted to choose because I, at that time, I wanted to get into banking. That's what I always wanted to do. I didn't know what sector of banking exactly, but I knew I wanted to get into it. And yeah, you go through college for two, three years and did you really want to get?

Speaker 1 16:28

into banking, or was it just? Money seems like the natural byproduct of business. So banking, let's get into banking. Were you thinking of yourself as a businessman then? Or were you going no, I'm just going to handle other people's money by being a banker. Because you'd done, you'd almost done. The experience is what I'm trying to say. I've started my own business, I've worked in businesses. Your grandparents shop all these things, the t-shirt thing going to wholesalers, yeah, but banking is very different to that. It's finance, of course, corporate, isn't it?

Speaker 2 17:02

yeah, and so there's a few things to touch on. It will give you, maybe, context to what I was like at the time. So when I was 17, I saved up this part of money from Christmas and from my birthday and what I decided to do was buy I believe it was one Amazon share which totaled roughly might be about 200 pounds or something like that, and I thought you know what. That's what I'm going to do, and so maybe that provides context to what I was like at the time. And at the exact same time, I'd be researching all the different sectors of banking probably about 10, 11 o'clock at night all the different fields. So investment banking, retail banking, what did I like?

Speaker 2 17:40

And there was no reason for me to do that, this was just purely on the side, because I was so interested in it, I could talk to people.

Speaker 2 17:47

So I thought, okay, I can do it over the counter and do that type of banking. But then, because I like to be investing in the trade, and I was like, okay, maybe investment banking, and that's why I chose those subjects in a way, and, to answer your question, did I really want to get into it? I did, I wanted to get into it. But the funny thing is, to get into a lot of these roles they typically require degrees and I didn't quite get the grades that I wanted to. The easy excuse for me would be say I was in that COVID year where grades got given to you but for whatever reason I didn't quite get the grade I needed. I think I might have missed by one or two and at the time that's disheartening because you build yourself up for years thinking this is what I want and it doesn't quite happen ah, so you were applying for your university during COVID.

Speaker 1 18:34

Yes, correct. Yeah, so they offered you.

Speaker 2 18:36

Basically, it's a place subject to getting the grades okay so then you find out okay, COVID is all locked down. You get given your grades and on one of them it's let me down. It was in the ICT.

Speaker 1 18:45

Funny enough, the one thing that I didn't even One thing you weren't really that bothered about, yeah literally, and what that does to you at the time.

Speaker 2 18:51

I think it sends you in a little bit of a. It makes you question okay, is this really the direction I want to go in, because that hasn't quite. Do I re-sit, do I re-take, or do I go into sort of employment and try to work my way? What I ended up doing was my cousin, who's the owner of Glasshouse, birmingham based brewery, worked with him for about a year and a half. That might be doing deliveries during COVID, it might be serving behind the bar, and I just really enjoyed it. I loved it. I loved working there.

Speaker 2 19:22

I loved talking to people and during that time there I was still actively looking for roles in banking but it was. I knew it was going to have to be apprenticeships. I knew it was going to have to be and what ended up happening was I ended up getting a place, a role, at a Birmingham based property finance lender. So 10 times better than just a just an apprenticeship, 10 times better. This was direct experience and a young starter. I was like the young hotshot. I didn't know anything about property. I knew a little bit about finance, but I was basically molded into this role and that was very customer facing.

Speaker 1 19:57

Did you feel like a hotshot though, because I'm just thinking you've still dealing with the negativity of not getting into the unit that you want. Did that take much for you to get over? Or were you always like no, I've always been told get up in the morning, keep moving, keep working. So this is what I do I work, I'll enjoy myself, I work with my cousin and you are very much a people person. That's obviously stems from being in your grandparents shop and having to be yeah, which is quite amazing for a young man like yourself, because I don't want to tar young people with a brush but there's a lot of social anxiety. There's a lot of conditions where you can't even look at people in the eye sometimes and you are. That's a great trait to have. That's very underestimated in a lot of people. You didn't battle any negativity afterwards. It was just like that's happened.

Speaker 2 20:45

Let's just move forward yeah, correct, because I knew I knew that this was just a step in turn to where I was going to go. I knew I was always gonna. I knew I was always going to get what I wanted, because that's just how I worked for it.

Speaker 1 20:58

It was never in question you have got an incredible amount of self-belief. Where does that come from?

Speaker 2 21:03

I, I'd say, self-belief comes from evidence and evidence over the years. It could be cases of, like I say, with the clothing brand, knowing I was always just that little bit different, in school, in college, and even if I didn't quite fit in certain circles, I knew to myself I was being true. This is what I wanted to do, this is what I've created. It just everything just felt natural to me. And how can you not feel confident when your grandparents have had their shop for sort of 50, 60 years at the time? What's my excuse? I've got technology, I've got the internet, I've got social media. Now derrick and paulie did not have that when they first started. What's my excuse?

Speaker 1 21:39

that's what I was telling myself and I love that dude because we speak about it a lot on the podcast. Combating that imposter syndrome. Yeah, the best way to do it give yourself irrefutable evidence that you can fucking do the shit that you say you're gonna do, correct it's the tight, it's the tiny things as well, though, isn't it?

Speaker 1 21:56

that's there, but again, I don't want to keep harping on about your age, but that's some incredible shit to understand. And I mean, if I knew that at 23 it's taken me 44 years to get to all that point, so I know we're in a much faster time. I'm sounding like a bloody dinosaur again.

Speaker 2 22:11

We won't judge that it's all right, man you surround yourself with young people.

Speaker 1 22:15

I can live vicariously through you guys while I'm dothering around the place, but it is quite an incredible thing to witness in someone so young. And that is not me trying to sound patronizing. I do interact with lots of people as a result of my job and all these things don't meet many 23 year olds like you jack.

Speaker 2 22:33

Yeah, I try, I think no, but look, no one's perfect. Everyone excels in their own ways, in different ways, and humble too, jesus christ who is this?

Speaker 2 22:44

guy. No, no one's perfect and I think I've got like I said earlier, I've got friends where they might not be exactly where I am and I've got friends that are way further ahead than me. But I'm not too focused on that. What I'm focusing on is my own path, my own every day. Just get a little bit better and look, we all have bad days. That's inevitable, and I've learned that now more than ever. Having my own business I thought the cloven brown was having a business, no, no, owning the neon sign company is that's having a business. Having pressures, having stresses on bills, everything that's what drives you ultimately.

Speaker 1 23:19

So shall we talk? You're in property finance and never to rest on your laurels. How did we go from? Oh, property finance. I think I'll give making neon signs a go, teaching myself that not the usual transition, would you say matt? No no, normally, oh well I don't know, but then some of the people on the podcast have been in corporate backgrounds and gone. No, I want to do art now and stuff, but I do think it's an interesting one yeah because you could be sat very comfortable. Presumably.

Speaker 2 23:50

Property finance is quite a lucrative business to be in yeah, correct, it's very niche, very specialist, you could say, and doing that, 22 years old, brilliant. And I was fortunate enough and lucky enough to be surrounded by people in that company that were inspirational to me. In a way. Everyone, a lot of people, had their own little thing on the side in what is such as what?

Speaker 1 24:10

who are you observing? I don't know names, but what are you observing from these people and their little side projects? Yeah, that it's viable to run two things at the same time, or yeah, correct it is viable, but all within a balance.

Speaker 2 24:24

Ultimately, you're nine to five. Your job comes first. That's first and foremost, and what I was doing when I first started. Mine was from January to about March. I was practicing in my mum's kitchen, learning how to make a neon sign.

Speaker 1 24:38

Now how do you get to that?

Speaker 2 24:40

point? Yes, that's the question how do we get there? So I was. I took a trip to New York, essentially just a solo trip, just went there myself, and there was no real reason behind it at all. I just wanted to go there. I hadn't been there for a few years. My, my mom, my family were lucky enough to. We went when we was young, so it's first time going back.

Speaker 2 24:58

And what happened? There was just this spark within me for some reason, I don't know why. The neon signs just called my attention. I just thought, and, as they do, that's basically what they're built for. And I thought you know, we don't have these back in the UK. So I thought you know what, let's do it, let's do it and, more specifically, let's do it in Birmingham. So on the way home, as soon as I got to the airport, I typed in onto google on my laptop okay, neon signs towards Birmingham. I got to the airport, I typed it onto Google on my laptop Okay, neon Science stores, birmingham.

Speaker 2 25:29

I soon found out no one was doing it, and that's where I thought you know what, I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to give it a go and what gives me the confidence to even execute on. That is that belief. Just from all them years being in the shop. Everyone a lot of people in my family have their business. They create themselves. No external funding, nothing like that. No, nothing's ever been given to them. They've just worked for it. So I thought you know what this feels. Natural I'm gonna do this like I say, I didn't know anything about it. But that's a blessing as well at the same time, because you learn. You learn what works for you. You're not taught these old tricks and these old ways of okay, this is how you do it.

Speaker 1 26:03

They say no and it's very different now, isn't it? Because neon, back in the day, is gases and all those things, whereas now we're much further on. You're working with led right?

Speaker 2 26:12

yeah, correct, that's much better for the environment, much better for the pockets as well, and a lot of people are a lot of people are, and rightly. They're worried about your social footprint, you're worried about energy consumption, all stuff like that, and I wanted to make sure, if I do start a business, it's got to stand the test of time. I'm not trying to do a quick win, I'm not trying to be in and out. It's other business. I'm trying to really build something here, and what I'm trying to build is the biggest neon sign store brand in the country, and that's what I'm hoping is. I'm on the path for that and it's not.

Speaker 2 26:43

Don't get me wrong. It's not easy, but I think I've got the right products. I've designed it well, I put everything into it for even from the small conversations with customers picking the phone up, to people understanding what they want and you soon find out that, okay, let's give it a go and little things, such as where I've done someone's sign about three months ago, a custom neon sign for their office space. And when you go through the process you know yourself Matt, you have it designed, we go through it. Okay, cool, it's in production.

Speaker 2 27:12

But when you see it for the first time, I've been in the customer's shoes because I was on the market for one myself, and that's what's funny. So as soon as he seen that sign, broke down in tears, got emotional because that logo to him that's in the office represents a lot more than just a few letters. That means a lot more to him and it's beautiful and that's what I think. That's what keeps me going as well and knows I'm on the right path, I'm doing something good, yeah and that is a massive progression.

Speaker 1 27:39

Because I've been lucky enough to witness this progression, because I actually came across you and your business, the neon cow, through sophie rose walters, artist, who was episode one of season one, and you and her collaborated on a piece, and you turn one of her amy winehouse drawings into this beautiful bespoke neon sign, didn't you? And I was like wow that's cool. Yeah, I'm gonna follow him because obviously, like you say, neon grabs attention. It was beautiful colors. I was like, wow, who's this guy that's making this stuff? And you were literally.

Speaker 2 28:12

You taught yourself on your mom's kitchen table, right, yeah, correct, in mom's kitchen table for about three months, just practicing, no prior experience and all off youtube. And you soon find out. You get to a stage where I can, okay, make the first one and I done this for myself. It was the j cole born sinner logo. J cole's my favorite artist and I thought you know what I want this. So that's where I was in the market for one myself as well.

Speaker 2 28:36

And then it's all compounds and adds together and makes you realize there's no one doing it and if they are, they're really expensive. And second to that, they don't really understand what this logo represents. It might be a few lines to someone, but to me it actually meant a little bit more. And they didn't quite grasp the vision of that. And I went, yes, through the process of making my own one and throughout that time you soon realize, okay, made the first one, looks brilliant, lights up.

Speaker 2 29:02

Then all of a sudden someone might come knocking and say, oh, jack, can you do one for so-and-so's bedroom or can you do one for our office space? And that was the natural progression of it really, but at this point it's still a side hustle. Oh, correct, yeah, I'm still on my nine to five. At the time it was just a passion project, really Just a passion project. It just felt right to do as well. It's almost absolute opposite of sort of banking and finance Creative. You know, you've got corporate and then you've got this really out there extravagant thing and yeah, I just absolutely enjoyed it. But it was still a project. And don't get me wrong, I still pinch myself even to this day thinking I've built this, this is my career now.

Speaker 1 29:43

So where's the moment? I've built this. This is my career now. So where's the moment? Because I want to touch more on that as well, because I know exactly what you mean. We're sat and I'm looking at the explore, inspire, create logo and, yes, it's a neon sign now, but those words that branding is all creative no, and it's all what I'm trying to do to help people explore, inspire and create the lives that they want to create. That's all we're trying to do with the podcast is inspire people to do the shit that inspires them.

Speaker 1 30:08

Basically perfect, and there is so much more meaning towards that, and I think that's interesting that you care about that, because you could be very much like yeah, fuck it, I'll design your logo, send me over the thing, I'll do this. But realizing that and your people, skills, your customer services I loved the process of having my sign design. You're going, oh, dude, I've done this, send it over to me. Oh, I like that. How does that work? And is it really that big? And oh, no, I can make it a little bit smaller, and all this sort of, and it was just brilliant. I loved every step of it.

Speaker 1 30:40

It was so cool, and I think that is one of the things that stands you apart. You're not going quick give, quick. Give me your cash, you'll get your sign. I want to know the story behind the logo. I want to know why it means so much to you, because then you can put a bit more heart and soul into it.

Speaker 2 30:53

And you spot on and typically that's how, prior to obviously me doing this, that's how a lot of sign companies operate and you don't want to, really wants to go to a sign company when they're just shopping for something for their living room that you wouldn't do, that you'd go to. Maybe it might be Sainsbury's, it might be H&R, not H&R.

Speaker 2 31:14

it might be, it might be anywhere, just anything on the high street interior style yeah basically, that's where you'd naturally come across it, and that was always my aim when I started Neon Cow. I didn't want it to just be another online company. That that's just like everything else. I wanted someone to remember oh, where did you get your neon sign from? I got it from neon cow. It had to be remembered.

Speaker 1 31:36

It had to be unique and and I'd like to talk about that as well, but again. What was the catalyst to take it from being the side hustle to a full-time thing? Was it just literally? Oh, the volume's gone up. Over 30 percent of my income is coming from signs. Maybe I can do this full-time yeah.

Speaker 2 31:54

So it got to a stage where so I've been going about maybe about a year and a half at the time and I absolutely loved my career, absolutely loved it, still in touch with a lot of the people from there. But sometimes what you realize is that opportunities like this don't come around very often and sometimes you've really got to grasp it and take it and run with it and but that's a gamble. It is a gamble but, like I say, going back to sort of what we were speaking about before, I had that confidence, I had that evidence and that self-belief to think you know what I can do this, if this, if I'm doing this on the side where it is currently, what would it be like? Full-time? And I've been lucky enough to work with some of the biggest companies around the world, internationally renowned Come on drop some names.

Speaker 2 32:37

Oh, don't no.

Speaker 1 32:39

Harvey Nichols Selfridges. Aston Villa, premier League Football Club Ja Rule Rapper U. How many football club jar rule rapper you? How many signs have you made for jar rule?

Speaker 2 32:46

last count. I think we sent a few out to about three weeks ago, set a few out, another few out to him. Yeah, about two or three more out, it's just I hope you're at the top of your testimony.

Speaker 1 32:55

Yeah, I hope so.

Speaker 2 32:57

I might even get featured as long as he knows. But it's. That would be cool it's working with those brands, which really it is, pinch me moments, but I knew it's inevitable because ultimately I've got a great product.

Speaker 1 33:06

It's all personal, it's all but also you've got a great brand, and let's talk about that for a bit. Yeah, the name, the branding. Have you done all that yourselves?

Speaker 2 33:13

yeah, everything all done myself. So what's?

Speaker 1 33:16

what's why the neon cow?

Speaker 2 33:18

yeah, I always get asked that question and it's funny I don't have a direct answer for it, but what I can say is, when it came to me, a lot of people that have got their businesses will know there's. You might throw a few different names in the air. See what works for you and for me. My process was I was listing out about 10-15 names on one side of a piece of paper and it was almost like a audition. It's like the x factor. Okay, right out of these 10 or 15, what's going to go through to the next stage? Out of that? Next it might be five or six. Okay, now what's going to go here? And that was how I slowly worked my way through.

Speaker 2 33:52

And the one brand which gave me inspiration in terms of their name and which I really liked it was just sharp, it's punchy, it's powerful was fat face. It's a clothing brand. Never, I've never shopped there, but for some reason that was at that time. It's what came to mind. It just I don't know why the short name and Neon Cow. Just it just stood out to me. I don't know where Cow came from. I'd love to be able to tell you about where it came from this place, but it just felt right at the time and it was between that and Professor Neon, so there was two, two names. It was gonna be lucky enough.

Speaker 1 34:28

I went with neon cow yeah, professor, neon, I'm not so, yeah, but I think you have done it well because it's stand out as well, because you're like what? I don't see anything to do with cows here, what's like. You just think that, oh, there's, at least there's a neon sign. My first neon sign was a cow, or whatever yeah, no, but I think it's quirky enough that people are like that's weird. Where did you buy it? I bought it from the neon cow yeah, what are you talking about?

Speaker 2 34:51

yeah, a lot of people say to me it doesn't make sense, but it does make sense.

Speaker 2 34:55

Yeah, and that's, and that's the best way to describe it for me and the funny thing is sometimes, if anyone's listening to this and they're thinking of starting a business, I wouldn't even get too too caught up on the business name, in a way, because it's what it means for you and as long as it references what you actually do, I think that's the main thing. I could have just named it the neon sign guy or neon signs UK could have done that. But I wanted something different.

Speaker 1 35:19

I wanted something unique that would stand out and but that goes back to your granddad saying of eye level is by level you know what it takes to stand out and the brand is cool, like yeah, I'd wear a neon cow t-shirt, not even because of the fact that I've got a neon sign. It's a cool brand. Everything when it, when it came, the packaging, the wrapping, everything was branded up with neon cow and that's what it's all about.

Speaker 2 35:43

Look what we're doing with creative noah land brand identity it's so important and I think if you've got a good, strong brand around your product or your selection of products, it almost ring fences you in a way. It adds that most of water around you which just protects you. And that's the key thing here when it comes to branding is you want it to be? You want it to be, you want to stand out and you want it to be? It depends what you want. You might want to look clean, you might to look really extravagant, up to you. But as long as you really take the brand serious, because you'll know businesses, I'll know businesses where we shop every day and their brand isn't 10 10.

Speaker 2 36:18

It's not perfect and no one's is maybe in a way, but as long as you really try and create something and tell something. For example, one of the main things with my neon signs, I want to make sure that the outside looks as good as it can, in the sense of it's never going to beat the inside because it's a neon sign. There's not much. There's not many things that are cooler than that, but what I can do is make the outside of the box really cool. So people are going to snap pictures, take pictures, put them on the instagram and guess and guess what. When they're on the Instagram, it has the brand name in there. It's not just a, it's not a plain box.

Speaker 1 36:51

I want it to really stand out and yeah, and if someone shares it you don't have to even tag you, because they're seeing neon count everything. That's it.

Speaker 2 36:57

And that's Brandon. That's Brandon 101, in a way, brand recognition, it's.

Speaker 1 37:01

Apple computers are only a Toshiba hard drive in a fancy model, aren't they? It's how we dress things up. Look at this now. Creative Neverland started with a simple grey background and a couple of lights, and now we've got a whole studio. We've got neon signs. It's brand identity and all of that crosses over.

Speaker 2 37:17

It's so important, right and you go through different phases of that as well, don't you, matt? You probably know from the start to where you are now. There might be different things, even in your personal life that might shape the branding or the way you grow your business.

Speaker 1 37:28

The creative evolution and that's what we're. Never one thing I think that's the whole thing that people get stuck. Don't ever get stuck in labeling. You can be something different tomorrow or try something different tomorrow, and your story is a testament to that. You're in property finance and then, when actually I am an entrepreneur, this is where my drive lies. I don't want to put you on the spot, but do you have? I don't know any. You're a young man who started a business and it's grown very rapidly. Have you got any like little tips for creatives, artists, people wanting to start any business? Really, I know I've put you a little bit on the spot there, haven't I? But what would be some of your major lessons learned?

Speaker 2 38:06

the one that comes straight to the front of my mind is from stephen bartlett's book. It's a frame matters more than the picture, so say more. How you portray something is what matters. For example, I could have a bottle of water in the middle of the room right now and it might not have. It might just be plain, or it might just have the brand name, might not have much about it. But if I started adding natural spring water or a picture of a mountain with water flowing out of it, all of a sudden you're going to perceive that bottle of water slightly different to the thing next to it, and that's what I mean when I say so similar as more than the picture so similar to the apple.

Speaker 2 38:44

Make their shops at an art gallery rather than pc world or courage, where there's laptops and laptops lined up correct absolutely and that I think, if you take that with you in all aspects of your I mean, I can only talk on business, but your design, for example. Going back to the packaging, if I can portray what's on the outside of this to feel nice and premium which it is you've got to make sure you match your packaging with your products, because if you mess up that part, people will perceive the actual product itself as slightly less. If it just arrived, imagine if it arrived in a black bin bag, matt, what would you think about it?

Speaker 1 39:17

oh, I'd be a bit worried about whether it was going to turn on or not.

Speaker 2 39:20

To be honest, yeah, you would and that's why it goes back to. Maybe that's an extreme example, but you can take it all the way to the other end. If it arrived in a nice, shiny glass box or in a gold box all of a sudden, you'd think, wow, I've got something here and that's what's matter. That's, that's the main thing here. So anyone starting a business I'd say the frame matters more in the picture really take time and focus on those small details.

Speaker 1 39:43

There's a great analogy about that in terms of positioning. It's like a bottle of water in a corner shop 50p. A bottle of water at a fancy restaurant £3.20. Correct. A bottle of water at the airport £7 or something Correct. A bottle of water on a flight, probably even more expensive.

Speaker 2 40:01

But what that says is that's the context it's in. So the context that's the context it's in. So the context that's the exact same product same, yeah, exactly, but the context in which it's in determines its value.

Speaker 1 40:11

So if you're in a desert and you need a bottle of water.

Speaker 2 40:13

That's how you are, yeah you're onto something there and if you're a photographer just doing it for birthdays and smaller events, that you might not be able to charge as much as someone that's on a massive photo shoot for itv or bbc. It's completely separate and, like I say, it's the same skill, but it's just an applied in a different market and going back to it, the context determines the value artists, creatives.

Speaker 1 40:35

Remember that this is a good one.

Speaker 2 40:37

Take note on this one it's business related and I'm by. You've had people on this that are far more talented art and creative than me when it comes to the business. That's what works for me.

Speaker 1 40:45

Yeah, we all need a jack's mind as artists and creatives. No, I do believe that and we've discussed that before. If artists were that little bit more entrepreneurial, right and business-minded, perhaps we wouldn't have the whole starving artist syndrome.

Speaker 2 40:59

Yeah, that exists, and no one's perfect, that ultimately. I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier nobody is perfect. You learn, you learn as you go along and in a way, we're all winging it, we're all sort of winging it. And every challenge, you don't know what's going to turn and be around the corner in a month or six months time There'll be a challenge that you've never faced before. And what are you going to do? Are you going to fall victim to it? Are you going to pack?

Speaker 1 41:22

but again, that's a testament to your resilience again, which we love talking about, because life's tough people. You, yeah. The worst thing I come across is people that expect things to be handed to them without doing the hard work. What's the magic you're looking for is in the hard work you're avoiding.

Speaker 2 41:38

Brilliant quote yeah, amazing isn't it?

Speaker 1 41:39

that's not mine, but it's a great quote. And it's really when you start thinking about it. You know actually, if I put in a bit more work, who knows what you could get? But it's the people that sat there on their asses going. Woe is me, or I'd like to do this. Stop talking about it, do it.

Speaker 2 41:55

Yeah, it sounds harsh, and probably from someone listening, that probably does sound harsh, but that is the reality of it. Life in general, you're so lucky in terms of the chance of even being born. It's incredible. So how are you in this world that we're in 2025? We've got all these, this technology, we've got all these blessings and you're not even going to make the most of it. Opportunities galore yeah it's.

Speaker 2 42:17

There's so many different ways and there's no right or wrong way of starting a business or doing your business. It's what works for you. But just give it all you've got.

Speaker 1 42:26

Give it all you've got because I'll tell you one thing my, my nan and granddad, operating for 61 years, 62 years, there's no chance you can do that without hard work no chance so you're gonna have to work through and let's I'm not to be mushy about it a lot of love, because, working in each other's pockets for 62 years, they've got to love the hell out of each other.

Speaker 2 42:45

Yeah it's about balance, and it's about balance, isn't it, ultimately? My granddad. For example, I sort of turned into a podcast about an irish shop, but it's, it's so I feel like I should touch on that.

Speaker 1 42:56

I should be interviewing derrick.

Speaker 2 42:58

You missed the trick there, man it's yeah, it's so, so crucial, and you learn these things, like I say, you learn them as you go along and you don't know what's going to turn around the corner.

Speaker 1 43:07

So just give it all you've got and just keep going that is really great advice and I think people should, if you are listening, take note. Let's talk about the growth of the neon cow, though, because now I think we have to talk about the fact that you're so busy. You now have to outsource the making of your sign, which is another business thing and a sign of huge growth. You've had to find someone who can make the product on the same standard that you're happy with. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Simply because you're busy, you need to turn around things faster. It's not because you don't love creating signs, is it? It's now. The business has grown exponentially, so you need to grow with it, right?

Speaker 2 43:47

grown exponentially, so you need to grow with it, right? You said, yeah, you spot on. You get to a point where you soon realize there's only so many hours in the day, there's only so many signs you can make in a day whilst also trying to talk to your customers, make sure they're getting even a good after service and then whilst also attracting new sales. So it's getting that balance. But how could you do all of those things while spending 12, 16 hours in a workshop making science? You can't really do that.

Speaker 2 44:08

So what you do is, in any business that's looking to scale, you need to look at the things that you can ideally outsource, and production was one of those things that I was really wary of because, like you said there, it needs to be held to a certain level, and it's not easy doing that. It's not easy at all. But as long as you have the trust in the team that they can carry on with it, then brilliant, and it allows you to flourish and to perhaps I don't know do the things that you excel at. So, for example, me, it's talking to people, it's understanding their vision and then actually applying it into a new design. That's where I thrive, so why wouldn't I double down on that and then outsource that? It makes sense. And, like I say, when you're looking to scale your business, you have to, you have to be sensible.

Speaker 2 44:52

Focus on the things that are your attributes and delegate out the stuff that you know you can as long as you've got the budget, for example, a lot of people, when that comes to mind, a lot of people might think okay, marketing, let's get a marketing agency. As long as you've got the budget for certain things, do it. But if you don't give it a go, learn it yourself. You don't quite know how how good something could turn out to be have you done?

Speaker 1 45:51

presumably you haven't needed to go down a marketing agency route because your signs are the marketing themselves. People just naturally post them.

Speaker 2 45:58

Yeah, I'm lucky enough. Yeah, lucky enough to have great customers, great followers and yeah, like you said, they market themselves in a way. And one thing I've started recently doing is I've labeled. Each neon sign now comes with a sort of a small label at the bottom where it says neon car. It doesn't, it doesn't affect the person's design, it doesn't do anything like that. But what it does is when it's out in a bar, when it's out in restaurant, how many people are really going to go up to the manager and say, oh, where did you get that from? Second to that, how many of those bar managers are actually going to remember where they got it from or know where they got it from? Very slim chances. So what I can do and this goes to a lot of businesses out there what you can do is brand the product but makecks, you don't want to be too.

Speaker 1 46:44

Yeah, I've got a beautiful explore, inspire, create sign. There's a massive neon cow logo at the bottom that I didn't really want.

Speaker 2 46:50

That's. There's a balance to it and it's going to be a lot of and anyone that runs a business they'll know a lot of a to b testing.

Speaker 1 46:56

You work out what works for you, what doesn't work, and you just chop and change ring and that's what matters really but that's exciting in the sense that you've been able to grow the business in that manner and the skill sets that you learn from being front of house for Derek and Pauline are the ones that you're leaning into. That's great, yeah, and I believe that's a creative skill set as well your ability to be so warm with people and interact with people it's a very underestimated skill I noticed that and a lot of us still serve in that.

Speaker 2 47:26

You know, when I go to shop and you notice a lot of kids not all of them, but some people don't even say a word. When they hand over their change or they come in to purchase some sweets or some chocolate, they don't actually say a word, or they might not even lift their heads sometimes. Yeah, lift their head. This beyond me, and what do we need to do to help that? I don't know. That's a whole.

Speaker 1 47:44

That's a whole different kind of work, isn't it?

Speaker 2 47:46

yeah, yeah, let's not go down that route we could be here for months, but I think the growth of neon cow is just over three years now and if you used to tell me when I first started that this is where it would get to run their six-figure all around the world business sending signs out to America, to Gambia, to Spain, this I would have said no chance. I said no chance and not just those countries to the people, the businesses.

Speaker 1 48:16

Yeah, the rappers, the but the growth of the business comes from you and your ability to see how your own business needs to scale, because recently you've developed some new tech, haven't you?

Speaker 1 48:29

yeah, to help your again back to your brilliance of customer service and customer lives. How do I solve the customer's biggest problem? Because I kind of want to see what my logo looks like without having to go through lots of rigmarole of maybe I have to give them a call. I just want to. I've got a logo, I just want to have a look and see what it looked like as a neon sign. So you've noticed that's one of your customers' problems. So tell me, Jack, how have you sorted that? Do you like that segue? By the way, that was smooth as anything.

Speaker 2 48:57

That was brilliant, matt Seamless. I'm proud and over the moon to announce that we've released the first ever neon preview tool. Essentially, what that means is a customer can upload their logo onto my website today and they will see exactly what their sign would look like without having to pay a single penny. And guess what? That's all instant. Back in the day, and still to now, it depends on some projects you'd have to fill out a form, attach your logo and go from there. This tool has never, ever been built before.

Speaker 2 49:31

So I had to think okay, this is the question of the issue. What can I do to help it? And secondly, what's actually possible to help this? Because this is a bottleneck in every single business in my industry, every business. What happens as soon as someone presses submit on that form? It's almost out of control in a way. But if you can actually tell them right, rather than spin the form, have a look at the sign right now. That's why you ultimately won and you might go shopping elsewhere and see okay, right, and whoever responds to you first you might end up going with. But in this example, I wanted a way where customers can envision their sign and have full confidence that you know what I like this and you don't even know if someone's going to get back to you after you press on a form, so I wired that but do you think that goes back to the, your knowledge of your customers reactions when they see their own sign?

Speaker 1 50:22

you know that when they see the actual thing, how it could look like, you sent me some, a couple of designs and I was like, may, that is like it wasn't. I mean, I got my sign before all this technology was developed. But even when you were just sending me the simple designs, I was like, oh, my god, that's amazing, that's gonna look so sick and that impact, that's a, isn't it? Oh, I'm a bit undecided. I'm a bit undecided. Oh, let me just have a look at it. Oh, wow, it's going to look like that.

Speaker 2 50:47

Okay, no, bye, bye, bye. And look, matt, that's difficult, that's very, very difficult. This was about 13, 14 months in the making. I couldn't tell anyone because no one's ever done it before. So what did I have to do? I had to design it from scratch, had to find and get the people, the right people, more importantly, to create this AI, train this AI and then also portray it and frame it in a way where it's actually useful for a customer.

Speaker 2 51:15

Now it's been live for about two or three weeks and the feedback received already is amazing. You know, for example, someone the other day purchased a sign through the website, about one o'clock in the morning, of their logo and it was brilliant. They had an event coming up in a couple of weeks time and lucky enough because they didn't have to wait for that, however long the delay would be to getting back to them. They was like yep, I like it. Now here's the payment up front.

Speaker 2 51:37

Jack, let's get cracking, I've got full confidence. And then jumps on the phone straight away, said look, thanks for placing your order, we can get started, we're going to deliver to your doorstep. So what that does is, although you say it's a great sales thing, it makes the process so much smoother for a customer and, like I say, it's a bottleneck in a load of service-based businesses a lot of businesses in my industry and I wanted to solve that. And don't get me wrong, it was expensive, very, very expensive to to do it, but I'm at a position where really, really proud of what we've created.

Speaker 1 52:09

That's again a testament to your ability to see how your own business needs to grow. You've reinvested in yourself, in Neon Cow, in this technology, in the belief that's going to be the thing that I mean. It's obviously already proving.

Speaker 2 52:25

It's already proving its worth right and look it's technology and it's technology that's so advanced.

Speaker 1 52:31

But and is that it's ai? Is it correct?

Speaker 2 52:33

powered by ai and, ultimately, technology is cool, ai is cool, it's really nice, but without the human touch, without the human element, it's it's not really worth anything. People want to buy from people and as soon as you pick up the phones of someone and tell them look, I can see you've uploaded your logo. This is how it's going to look. I'm glad you're happy with it. When's the deadline? It's about adding that service to it and, look, reinvesting in the business it. It just made sense because I'm trying to build something here which I build the best neon sign store brand in the country. I love that.

Speaker 2 53:04

How do you do that without reinvesting? You simply can't. But there's competitors out there with 50, 100, probably 200 people in some of their companies and none of them have this. None of them have it. I'm the only person that has it.

Speaker 1 53:18

And it's brilliant. Have you put some sort of patent on that?

Speaker 2 53:21

Yeah, so all patented, all protected, because, like I say, we're really trying to build something here and you have to be sensible and you have to calculate decisions, but this was 14 months in the making.

Speaker 1 53:33

Wow.

Speaker 2 53:33

Designed literally from scratch. Worked with a lady called Anaya who designed the front end Really really talented she's vast. Worked with a lady called Anaya who designed the front end really retanted. She has a vast amount of experience when it comes to this thing and just left it to her and had a clear vision and she absolutely nailed it. And then I had to get a team that would actually create the AI, train the AI, get all the different machine learning in place. And yeah, we've done it. And don't get me wrong, it wasn't easy. There was a few things in the process where, okay, this would be possible. Loads of people told me from the offset that no, it's not possible. People that are in developing, people that are in computing, said no, it's not possible, you can't do that yet.

Speaker 1 54:09

But we found the right people. That's interesting that you can't do that yet you found the right people to do it now.

Speaker 2 54:21

But when you first started Neon Cow, let let's face it ai wasn't what it was.

Speaker 1 54:23

No, you wouldn't have even been able to think about that. No, of course, not of course not.

Speaker 2 54:25

We're moving so quickly, aren't we? It almost scary in a way, scary quickly. But you have to really tap in to these things if you're a business and you're almost not using the ai and ai isn't just chat gtp, there's so many different layers we just really have a little look at it and think, okay, how could I be?

Speaker 2 54:40

how could I be optimizing my business? For example, there's the bots, there's agents that can literally respond to customers for you. Now, for me, I don't use any of those things, but there would be some businesses where it would benefit. I would definitely recommend using that. But look, technology, like I said earlier, technology is cool, but without the human element. That's what you need. You need that research. It's powered by technology, but there's a human on the other end of it so come on then.

Speaker 1 55:06

How do you're already on your way, but how do you turn the neon cow into the biggest neon manufacturer in the uk? What's the goals? What's happening, what's moving forward next?

Speaker 2 55:17

yeah. So I believe creating the ai technology is a major step in that direction. Second to that, working directly with the customer, making sure every single individual product project is the best it can be. If you get too focused on the future and worry about these goals, it's you're gonna lose track of what actually matters, and that's the customers that are with you right now. So I definitely say nurture your customers, look after them and the rest will follow. Believe me, the rest will follow. As long as you have a great product and you've got good service, brilliant. If you've got a great service and a bad product, you're probably not going to get people to come back to you, but if you've got good service and a great product, that creates something really special.

Speaker 1 55:57

And that goes across the board, whether you're an artist or an entrepreneur, whether you're starting a coffee business or whatever. Correct. But see, that's what I mean. It's broad advice from yourself that I think so many people listening to this can take elements away, even though, well, I don't make neon signs, it's not about that. Take the broader picture of what we're saying, correct, amazing dude.

Speaker 2 56:16

Amazing and, like I say, it goes back to it you just need to, when it comes to your customers, treat everything in individual merit. That's the main thing I'd say.

Speaker 1 56:27

And how are you measuring that metric for yourself in terms of how? Is it just about sales to be the biggest neon company in the UK, or is it about something different for you? Is there something?

Speaker 2 56:39

So I'd say, to answer that question, there's a few different things. You can't track it numerically in the way that you can track sales and can track engagement. But I tell you what working with Harvey Nichols, sega, gymshark, all these different brands, to me that's a pretty good metric to manage it. Yeah, that's probably the best way because, guess what, when you work with those big, amazing brands that that trust you on their project, that also says a lot to the small to medium enterprises that say, okay, if they're good enough for Harvey Nichols, gymshark, sega, they're good enough for me.

Speaker 1 57:13

The Atlanta Falcons the Atlanta Falcons. Garul Aston Villa. Oh, if it's all right for them. Yeah, some little guy who's got a tiny podcast, yeah, it might be all right for me?

Speaker 2 57:22

No, never that. But it's like I say if you got too focused on the future and worried about all these big brands, you would lose track of the customers that you've got today. So really just focus on what you've got today and obviously spend time on the growth and plan it out and map it out, but really make sure you're not taking for granted what you've got right now.

Speaker 1 57:43

That's very important and quite profound. Yeah, we are where we're supposed to be right, and you've got to focus on the thing that's right in front of you, correct?

Speaker 2 57:51

And nobody's perfect.

Speaker 1 57:54

Nobody's perfect Might be the name of this podcast. You've said that a lot. Go on. Then there's one goal that you've said to me when we sat down to speak about this, and you've mentioned him already, but you know you've done jar rules, so there's got to be a little six degrees of separation. When are you producing a neon sign for j cole?

Speaker 2 58:12

that, yeah, that would be the. That would be the absolute. Yeah, that would be sort of my. That would be the top. I don't think there's not many other projects that could top that. To be honest with you, j Cole, I love my music to start off with, but what is it about J Cole that resonates with you so much?

Speaker 1 58:30

Because you can pick anybody, any artist.

Speaker 2 58:32

Correct. It's a good question. It's a really good question. So I grew up probably listening to a lot of my brother's music was in the background and his favorite artist was Ja Rule. So in a way that's kind of ticked in that sense. But the first rapper that I was introduced to was J Cole and listened to his music, listened to the stories that he tells and how he comes across in his interviews and a range of things. I think that's really powerful in terms of how humble he is. But yeah, look, I'm yet to do a sign for him, but yeah, we'll see, but six degrees of separation.

Speaker 2 59:06

You can't be far away but yeah atlanta falcons and you know, if it comes, brilliant.

Speaker 1 59:13

But guess what if it doesn't, so be it but then also when that thing does come, because I will put it out into the universe. When you do make a sign for J Cole, you'll have gone. Oh, I've ticked that goal now.

Speaker 2 59:24

Pack up the bags, finish.

Speaker 1 59:25

But that's what I mean. It's about the journey, isn't it? Not about the result, it's not about the top of the mountain, it's always about the journey.

Speaker 2 59:31

And don't get me wrong, you forget that, though at times you forget it's about the journey.

Speaker 1 59:40

You've probably already done things in those three years that you thought you would never do, oh, 100% what I'm doing right now, this being my full-time job and my passion.

Speaker 2 59:48

That was a dream for me at one point. So how, don't get me wrong. Sometimes it's hard to stay in the moment and I'm trying to work on it at the minute. I'm really trying to practice that.

Speaker 1 59:58

What does that look like? How are you doing anything specific for that, or is it just every now and again giving yourself a reminder, or are you actually putting into practice the system and going be present in what I'm doing?

Speaker 2 1:00:07

yeah, that's so definitely. Well, the first and the second reason the books. I'm reading them here. Which power of now. It's a really popular book, a lot of people yeah, correct, spot on, and there's certain practices in that can help you. But I just think, learn, and even just being grateful for everything you've already got and even understanding. Okay, waking up this morning having food on the table having breakfast.

Speaker 1 1:00:32

People in your life that love you yeah, literally so important everything.

Speaker 2 1:00:36

If that's what's important, that's what you're grateful for. Everything else is a bonus. Me living the life that I have now was once a dream to me, so how can that not be a bonus? How can I be ungrateful for that? And that's what you try and teach yourself.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

And look, it's not easy. We all get caught up. Of course we do at times, but just yeah, I'm really trying to actively think about that really, because there's a lot of people that will get to the stage where they want to get to. For example, they might get that gold medal in the Olympics. It's a common thing that people talk about and that's what they've worked so hard to do. That's what they looked up to. It was their North Star. What do they do now? And that's the thing where you've almost you don't want to get to that point and be absolutely miserable and think about it at that point. What I'd rather do is let me just really appreciate what I've got right now and go on the direction, on where I go. You are where we're supposed to be. Yeah, I love that quote. That's a brilliant quote, because you got it. That is it. You're exactly where you need to be and things don't just like me missing out on university if you pled to something so much better, you come out with no.

Speaker 1 1:01:36

You haven't got the 40 grand worth of debt or whatever correct, correct. You've started your own business. It's just flying.

Speaker 2 1:01:41

Yeah, and don't get me wrong, it's not easy. I know I keep saying that, but from the outside it probably looks yep, you're doing this, You're doing amazing, You're doing amazing. But to me I'm focused on okay, what's the next thing?

Speaker 1 1:01:52

Yeah, and also people let's go of your mind are when you get into your bed at night and everything's switched off, you're still sat there. As a self-employed person, I've been there. All the things you're ticking off? Oh god, I didn't. I said I was supposed to go and spend time with my friends today, but I actually had an order that I had to complete or a job that I had to do. There's so much that goes involved and everyone does only ever see the positive. Oh, it's all right for jack, he's got his own business and yeah, but you haven't seen how hard he's worked and gone from the kitchen table to now selling to NFL Premier League teams. It's a hell of a journey in a very short time.

Speaker 1 1:02:26

Yeah, it is yeah you're absolutely right and I'm really pleased, mate, that I've got to witness it Only on social media and stuff until I bought my sign. But I'm invested in the neon cow. I think it's ace. I love my sign. It's elevated the brand no end.

Speaker 1 1:02:44

I feel completely different about my own brand now having a good other sign so that effect straight on the website boom we'll take that I would write you a testimonial in a heartbeat, mate. So, as we say, you've already completed things that you've. When you started, you thought you'd never do for these huge brands Gymshark, sega Villa, the Atlanta Falcons, all these things. So the the goal that you've got at the moment is you want to make a sign for J Cole. I don't want to belittle that in any way, but I feel like your business is so much bigger than that. So if it wasn't J Cole, where do you see the business in a few years time? If the goal is to make it the biggest, what is another sort of signal that isn't finance? Who would be another job, a brand or something that you haven't done that you might like to work for?

Speaker 2 1:03:41

that you haven't done that. You might like to work for great question. It's a great question and I'm gonna cop out of the answer a little bit here because you almost you don't quite know until you get to those points. At the minute I'm I'm personally so focused on dealing with the customer. Got the minute where I'll spend a bit of time focused on the trajectory of the business in the future and the growth of it, but my sort of main focus is actually sort of on the existing customer base.

Speaker 2 1:04:05

That's where I've been, that presence again, yeah, where we're supposed to be living in the now, exactly now, yeah and if you probably asked me that question about maybe a year ago or two, I might have had this great plan, this grand deal. Okay, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen. But one of the worst things that can happen is you put a plan out and you don't quite hit that goal. You don't quite hit that metric that you wanted to, and then you're going a little bit of a downer. So I've learned that what actually matters is the people that you've got following you right now, the people that you've got supporting you right now that's what truly matters, yeah because everything else, let's face it is fiction yeah, you can.

Speaker 1 1:04:42

Yeah, you can predict a future of all sorts.

Speaker 2 1:04:45

But if someone doesn't show up now, correct, to buy your sign or whatever that might be, yeah, get it correct and that's and that's it, and maybe that's like a level of, I don't know, staying grounded, staying humble in a way, but I think, as long as you focus on that, it just adds a sense of security, I think, around you.

Speaker 1 1:05:04

So have you had any of those moments where you've had to deal with a setback where you thought, fuck this neon sign stuff. I mean, it seems to have been all successful, but we can't give everyone the highlight of it. What's been a moment where you thought, oh, this is not working, this is not going to work, or that job I haven't completed it, or the sign is blown up when they've plugged it in? Have there been any of those moments where you've gone, oh, I don't know whether I should keep carrying on with this.

Speaker 2 1:05:31

Yeah, there's moments like that, don't get me wrong, and we all probably face that in a way. There might be a new project, a new challenge, which I've never quite faced before At this point. I've done thousands of signs and I've seen the good, I've seen the bad, I've seen the ugly, and there's one thing that I'm trying to focus on at the minute, which is about really working with the customer to make sure that it's what they want. But secondly, what's actually going to be effective for them? Now there's a way, for example, if it's a bar or restaurant and they want to sign for their front window and their aim is to attract footfall, things coming in, people coming in sorry, but what they're actually asking for isn't quite delivering on that. Now I believe it's my responsibility to talk to them and think right, guys, this is what we're trying to achieve, yet this doesn't quite match up with it. So here's what my plan is, and it's about working with the customer to think we've done thousands of signs, this is what works, this is what doesn't work, we've got all of that data now that says okay, they've got loads of these clicks on their Instagram stories. These don't.

Speaker 2 1:06:35

It might be the angel wings, the typical angel wings that a lot of people ask for. I actually don't do angel wings. There's been times where I've said, no, let's not do that. What we'll do instead is x, y and z, because the minute you have an the angel wings sign in your bar or restaurant, nobody actually knows where that's from. It's that used, generic, so generic. No one knows where that picture's taken.

Speaker 2 1:06:58

Now, if we have something nice and cool that references your place and it's unique to you, let's run with that. Why wouldn't you? Let's run with that. And there's cool ways you can add your brands at the bottom. We could do things specific to buy a restaurant. But yeah, I think it all comes down to working with the customer. And don't get me wrong, there's times, especially back in the day, where an adapter might not work or the color might not be absolutely spot on. So do you start from scratch? Get a brand new side to customer? I'm a little bit like a perfectionist where I want it to be absolutely spot on for the customer, and the reason why that is is because when that's out in the wild, we call it the wild. That's going to do its marketing for me and at the same time, that's going to do wonders for the customer. So it it's mutually beneficial. It helps me and it helps them.

Speaker 1 1:07:43

And proves my point about the fact that you're ultra creative because you're creative problem solving for your clients on the job. Oh, I want this actually, but I've done the work. I know my industry. If you did this and have a bit more of your branding in it rather than say the generic angel, correct, you're a creator.

Speaker 2 1:08:02

Yeah, yeah, you try, you have to, but it's all in terms of also how you deliver that message. Just like how I said, the context determines the value. If you pitch it in a certain way where it's aggressive or it's sort of you're belittling the customer, then why? Almost they'd feel no, they'd feel disrespected, and you don't want to do that. Ultimately, it's a partnership. You should work together on this. It's what a privilege that someone's coming to you and they're trusting you for their office space, for their studio space. So cherish that and really work with them, because if they get something that they're not happy with, then they might not even get a second one from you. So just really just focus on delivering a good product and work with them that goes across everything.

Speaker 1 1:08:44

Yeah, I think you're right. I think there's so much that people creative people, entrepreneur people I think there's so much from this podcast that people can take away learning from you, which, again, I don't want to sound like a patronizing old dinosaur, but from a 23 year old young man you're very knowledgeable, but that comes from giving yourself the experience and irrefutable evidence that you've done it yeah, correct, and I think as a 23 year old, it can be easy to fall into the traps of buying the luxuries in life the watches, the cars, the clothes, all these fancy things.

Speaker 2 1:09:16

But what I would recommend and what I say to my younger self and I've never really been bothered about all that fancy stuff it's just really just focus on mastering your craft, just learning being the best you can. And look, it's probably gonna sound patronizing to some people, but just really try and be the best in you and just see how that could turn out. I love that. You don't know how beautiful something could turn out to be.

Speaker 1 1:09:36

I love that dude and I think that's a great place to almost bring this to a bit of a close. I mean incrementally better every day. You never know what's going to happen. Yeah, lovely, Okay. Well, I think we've spoken about so much there, mate, and there's so much great stuff that people can take away from this podcast.

Speaker 1 1:09:56

But closing tradition that we do have on the Creative Noirland podcast we like to ask someone for a quote that resonates with you and also someone in your network that you think would be an interesting and inspiring guest to come on a future Creative Noirland podcast. So in any order you like, mate.

Speaker 2 1:10:14

So for the quote. I touched on one earlier where it was the context sort of determines the value and the frame matters more in the picture they sort of go hand in hand. But the other one that really don't know it always stuck with me was in my brother who's co-founder of neon cow as well, and he's realized that.

Speaker 1 1:10:30

Yeah, so it's. We're giving jack all the credit when your brother's been the secret co-founder yes, my brother's.

Speaker 2 1:10:36

He's chartered accountant, that's like his background, so he's very much finance and keeps everything safe and sound.

Speaker 1 1:10:41

So while.

Speaker 2 1:10:42

I do these brilliant, amazing collaborations, so even more so you're the creative and he's the finance guy.

Speaker 1 1:10:48

Yeah, you could say that, Shout out to brother because he kept you to the end of the podcast. Don't even give you a shout out. I'll leave that sibling rivalry.

Speaker 2 1:10:55

Yeah, he won't mind. It's one thing that was in his I think it was like his whatsapp bio or something like that was.

Speaker 1 1:11:04

It was a quote saying imagine if you don't reach your own potential and I thought, wow, quite a fitting quote and that would be to you, because the one that I heard on those same realms is the darkest day in a man's life is where he meets the man that he could have been imagine if you don't reach your own potential.

Speaker 2 1:11:20

You almost don't want to go to that place. You don't want to imagine it because that we obviously we can't. You don't know how that'd feel, but if you didn't give your best and try your best at this thing that we call life, yeah, that might be a. It might be a tough time for someone facing that but, like I say, we, we all do the best we can.

Speaker 1 1:11:37

We all learn each. That's all we can do. Isn't learn each and every day? That's all we can do, isn't it? Yeah, and just carry on going forward. Such a level head on you for a 23-year-old to even come up with a quote like that. Even, man, you blow me away, jack. I wish I had some of those skills that you had when I was 23, rather than being a drunken idiot.

Speaker 2 1:11:53

So, yeah, I was never the type for going out, even for us that's me now. I don't really dream, yeah, not really bothered about going out on crazy nights out or anything like that, but we're building and we're growing 100 and nothing's right or wrong, though at the same time, just no, no, that's no judgment.

Speaker 1 1:12:09

Yeah, yeah, we're trying to build something that our future selves are proud of. That will hopefully give us freedom time later down the line yeah, you say absolutely spot yeah, and that's what we've all got to strive for, really okay. And what about guests in your network that you think would be an interesting person to come on the creative?

Speaker 2 1:12:28

no one podcast a guest in my network. Um, I think one of the most inspired yeah, yeah, we could call the word the most, I think, inspiring people that I've obviously been fortunate enough to be inspiring by, is probably my cousin, josh, who owns Glasshouse Brewery in Birmingham. They've grown to be one of the best breweries in the country and seeing that, from how the start to where he is now and actually I've worked there for a few years it's brilliant, it's amazing and his story. I don't recommend everyone to go check them out. Go down to the tap room, take a little visit. Spot on there, absolutely spot on. So I'd recommend, yeah, I'd recommend josh.

Speaker 1 1:13:05

Well, if we can hook that up, that'd be great. And I think again, another an interesting, creative entrepreneurial journey. And everyone loves a beer most of the time, don't they? So, jack, I just want to say another massive thank you. I think you might look at the title of I don't know what I'm going to tag this as jack runs a neon sign business. Think, oh, I'm an artist, I'm a creative. I might not listen to that one, but I really hope people do and take note of the broader picture of what we're trying to say in this and very inspiring. I hope you should be very proud, and derek and paulie and your family and everyone should be. I'm sure they're hugely proud of everything you're doing, dude. I hope so, man, and you should be very proud, and Derek and Paulie and your family and everyone should be. I'm sure they're hugely proud of everything you're doing, dude?

Speaker 2 1:13:43

I hope so, and firstly, matt, thank you for having me on as well, and thank you for choosing me on Carl Fienle on sign, and best of luck for season two. I'm sure you'll smash it. Thank you, brother.

Speaker 1 1:13:51

I appreciate you. Thanks for listening to the Creative no Will Am podcast podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Noveland shop. And here's the bonus when you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So thanks again for listening and until next time, explore, inspire and create. Thank you,