#0022 PJ ELLIS - WE MAKE A LIFE BY WHAT WE GIVE!

Welcome to Season 2 of the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

We've got some great guests lined up for you this season, so let's start as we mean to go on.

I've always said that I want Creative Nowhere Land to be a place that inspires others to do the things that inspire them. And I was racking my brain as to who should be the first guest to start us off for season two. Should it be an artist, a poet, a musician, maybe. 

But after recording this episode, I knew it had to be this guest. Someone who, up until recently, probably wouldn't have even considered themselves creative, but someone who is one of the most authentic and inspiring humans that I've met in a long time...Mr. PJ Ellis.

You might recognise the name as, yes, PJ was on Season 3 of the Reality TV show Big Brother, but that's not the reason why I've got him on the podcast. A lot's happened since then. Trust me! 

A family, a law career, a digital marketing agency, setting up and being part of multiple charities that have raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for amazing causes.  There are the years spent working tirelessly to champion amazing people. And now he's a radio DJ who tries to get people smiling every day. 

Now, if you are a 'creative', you might wonder how this is relevant to you. Well, PJ's story is one of overcoming adversity and anxiety, reinvention, fame and celebrity.  The masks we wear to survive and the moments that strip them away to reveal our true purpose, and most importantly, showing up for ourselves as well as other people. They're human issues, not just creative issues that we all go through, and we go into all of them in this episode. 

So, if you are feeling a little stuck or uninspired, give this one a listen, as I'm sure there's something that you can take away from it that will help you on whatever journey you are on.

I wanna dedicate the first episode of Season 2 of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast to PJ's mum, Marian Ellis, who is sadly no longer with us, but who, as you'll hear, has left a lasting legacy of warmth, kindness, and generosity, that is evident in everything that PJ does to lift up as many people around him as he can.

PJ's journey reminds us that our most winding paths often lead to our greatest purpose, and that in a world focused on what we acquire, our legacy ultimately rests in what we give.

Check out the links below to PJ's Instagram and The Mommys Boy Website as you listen. And I hope you enjoy the episode...

PJ ELLIS INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/pje122/

PJ ELLIS LINKEDIN: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/pjellis

MOMMYS BOY WEBSITE: https://mommysboy.co.uk/

Transcript

Welcome to Season Two

Speaker 1 0:03

Hello everyone and welcome to season two of the Creative Noa Land podcast. We've got some great guests lined up for you this season, so let's start as we mean to go on Now. I've always said that I want Creative Noa Land to be a place that inspires others to do the things that inspire them, and I was racking my brain as to who should be the first guest to start us off for season two. Should it be an artist, a poet, a musician maybe, but after recording this episode, I knew it had to be this guest, someone who, up until recently, probably wouldn't have even considered themselves creative, but someone who is one of the most authentic and inspiring humans that I've met in a long time Mr PJ Ellis. You might recognize the name as, yes, pj was on season three of reality TV show Big Brother, but that's not the reason why I've got him on the podcast.

Speaker 1 1:00

A lot's happened since then, trust me A family, a law career, a digital marketing agency, setting up and being part of multiple charities that have raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for amazing causes. There's years spent working tirelessly to champion amazing people, and now he's a radio DJ who tries to get people smiling every day. Now, if you're a creative in inverted commas, you might wonder how this is relevant to you. Well, pj's story is one of overcoming adversity and anxiety, reinvention, fame and celebrity playing a part to fit in finding a purpose, having impact, authenticity, inspiration and, most importantly, showing up for yourself as well as other people. They're human issues, not just creative issues, that we all go through, and we go into all of them in this episode.

Speaker 1 1:59

So if you're feeling a little stuck or uninspired, give this one a listen, as I'm sure there's something that you can take away from it that will help you on whatever journey that you're on. And before we start, I want to dedicate this episode to PJ's mum, marion Ellis, who is sadly no longer with us but who, as you will hear, has left a lasting legacy of warmth, kindness and generosity that is evident in everything that PJ does to lift up as many people around him as he can Look. There's inspiration galore in this one, so I'm going to shut up, but I'm very proud that this is the first episode of the new season, so enough of me.

Speaker 2 3:00

Let's get into it. Are we ready man, born ready man? Let's just have a born ready. I think we'll have a nice chat, I think well, you're a podcast pro.

Speaker 1 3:13

Now I feel like I've you've done about 7 million in the last couple of weeks, I think what you're good at, mate.

Speaker 2 3:19

I've listened to a bit of your podcasts and I've been obviously following you and knowing you for a while now, but I think the best sort of interviews are when you stop interviewing and you just have a chat. So in fact, I've got some notes. The only notes are just basically, there are so many people I would love for you to talk to next. I'll put them down here and I'm just going to make a few snapshot decisions when you're asking that question.

Speaker 1 3:41

I'm open to more people.

Speaker 2 3:42

Yeah, I might mention a few, but yeah, one is the suggestion well, there's one or two and I think, depending on this conversation, it'll probably help me decide no pressure on me, no pressure on you.

Speaker 1 3:52

One of these people is going to be let down. If this goes well, you might get allison.

Speaker 2 3:56

If not, well, allison hammond, I've been put on the list, but let's put her straight at the top. That's a given, isn't it everyone?

Speaker 1 4:02

Everyone wants you to, but that's not what I feel like. She obviously has got a huge creative arc and what she's doing It'd be interesting for you to talk to Alison.

Speaker 2 4:12

If she's recording, you should put it out. Alison Bab, listen to me, have a chat with Matt, because I don't think she would even think she was creative Really and she actually really is. Oh my god, yeah it's really interesting because but then I don't think you do. No, I don't know until there's a few people, including yourself, that's challenged me with that. That's the right word, and I've actually started to appreciate that. Yeah, I am more of a creative than I ever. I mean, I've got socks on at the moment with bloody aubergines on.

Speaker 1 4:40

No, whatever the emoji, he just doesn't know his fruit on his bench.

Speaker 2 4:43

Yeah, don't get me to draw any fruit. But Alison yeah, mate, if you're listening, you are a creative. She was born in the arts, theatre, acting the creativity like the journey she's been on as well to recreate what she is, what she stands for. There's always been that authenticity, that vulnerability, that credibility and consistency.

Speaker 1 5:04

But she's changed and I think she should be a great guy well, I tell you on those notes seems like a good place for us to start, because what I wrote down about you, pete, is reinvention, authenticity, impact, purpose and a connector of people. Wow, so that's how I've put you. Yeah, and I've probably ruined it now, but how would you describe yourself?

Speaker 2 5:23

interesting, isn't it? That's a really good question, because I think I've always struggled with that. Whether it be because of anxieties, or whether I value myself as much as I should or value myself as much as I tell other people to value themselves. I've never really stuck around long enough to be anything, if that makes sense. That sounds really deep, doesn't it, and sad. But I don't mean it like that. I mean it in the sense that one minute I thought I'd be a footballer, then I was a lawyer, then I had my own business, then I did some reality TV, then I set a charity up, then I decided to go and work for the BBC, then there were so many different things that I've done, but do you think this is part of the story, isn't it?

Speaker 1 6:03

But along that journey, do you recognise that you've had huge impact on that journey, even though you're a bit flippant about it, even in the way you talk about it?

Speaker 2 6:12

Yeah, I think I'm getting better at understanding that I have connected people, I have told the right stories at the right times. I think I have got off my backside and done things that have created impact because it's been with purpose, so I do understand that. Going from that, though, and then articulating it into oh yeah, I am a connector, I do bring value, are two different things for me, because I just shy away from that sort of. The irony is I can often be the loud person in the room, I can be that person that posts on linkedin every day, but actually I'm not that confident if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 6:48

Can we dive a little bit into that, then, because obviously we've known each other a while. You've been on a bit of a like podcast tour and we've got a shout out hannah at the, is it?

Speaker 1 6:59

perp the pursuit of purpose which everyone should go and listen to and potential future guests. We've got some weird six degrees of separation, not just through you but also through a previous guest. Cool. But that really stuck with me, not only your openness but your whole story and the fact that your public persona to the world, to LinkedIn, to social media, to the BBC audience that you've got now as a radio dj is so warm, so friendly, so confident, so outgoing. But, like you say, that's, dare I say, a bit of a mask, a coping mechanism that you've put on can we dive into that a little?

Speaker 1 7:39

bit. Can we go back to you being a kid? And because the thing that I did notice you spoke about, you felt you had this anxiety as a kid and you felt a bit socially awkward and you found solace in reading libraries, creativity books. Yeah, I think that's it so obviously as a creative podcast. I want to sit into that. What was that for you?

Speaker 2 8:02

Yeah, just give you a little bit of a nutshell of where it all started. And I was a really socially awkward kid. I grew up in a very loving, hard-working family, two brilliant parents that told me all the right fundamentals around what's right, what's wrong, when to say yes, please, when to say no, thank you, uh, when not to look in a lady's purse. I'll never understand that, but that was my mom's sort of approach to things and I was just awkward. I was shy, like painfully shy Do you understand now why?

Speaker 1 8:32

No, because I still am. Yeah, that's why.

Speaker 2 8:35

I still am a shy person and we'll probably come back to that facade thing that you've nailed there.

Speaker 1 8:41

I want to call you on it. I don't want to say facade. Yeah, I would say a mask, a coping mechanism, and that's not a bad thing. Yeah, I think we all have to, as humans, adapt and put those on in certain situations. But I'm just wondering let's say, loving family, all the things that.

Speaker 2 8:55

I just wonder what contributed to that anxiety possibly I've got a very overstimulated brain, like I constantly think I know we all do. But yeah, I used to grow up worried about the pain I'd be experiencing when giving birth, like I've never, ever had a womb or any reproductive organs. Well, I have, but not a womb, right. Yeah, and that was born out of the fact that I played football off the back of me, being that nervous sort of I hate to use this coin, this phrase, because it's cool now, isn't it to be a? But I was this guy that excelled at homework and academia and all that sort of stuff, and I was this guy that was just thrown in goal. It had to be picked, whatever it might be, because I didn't want to play football, I didn't want to engage with people. I was just sitting there head down and I just started stopping these shots and thought I'm quite good at this. And I just shots and thought I'm quite good at this and I just found this passion and I threw myself. I threw everything I had into football. I used to go and hire videos out to see how to become a goalkeeper, how to catch a ball. I was obsessed, obsessive person, um, yeah, obsessive personality. So football brought me into that conversation with all the other saying not normal people, but the very streetwise kids.

Speaker 2 10:02

I went to a school in chelmsley Wood. It was very. It was full of streetwise kids. What I was not a streetwise kid, I wouldn't be out on my bike climbing trees, not at all. I'd be in the safety of my mum and dad's house watching the telly or drawing or whatever it might be.

Speaker 2 10:17

But when I wasn't playing football, I sought refuge if that's the right word in library, in encyclopedias, in information, and it wasn't as easy to get then, so I'd have to go to the library or I'd have to find one of my dad's atlases. He had this big old school atlas, wherever it might be, and I just absorbed as much information as I could. And I think that then add to that a very overstimulated brain that couldn't turn itself off, and at a time when we weren't having these conversations around ADHD or I'm not saying compartmentalising people, but certainly putting tags and then frameworks around those people to help them move into X, y and Z I didn't have any of that support for want of a better word other than a very loving family. Yeah, I don't really know what happened, but I just was a very socially awkward kid. Does football help you? Football helped me massively. Like that smell of the changing room Just reminds me of DP Community.

Speaker 1 11:10

Yeah, dp, yeah, calamine was it, I don't know that white sort of sauce and then a bit of sort of teenage Lynx?

Speaker 2 11:16

Oh yeah, lynx, Africa, mate, which was your favourite. Can you remember? It's surely?

Speaker 1 11:21

no, there was like a I don't know. They changed the flavours.

Speaker 2 11:24

They did, didn't they? Yeah, yeah, it was like a blue, icy looking one. It was a cool you're a bit younger than me, though, aren't you? How old are you? 44? Oh yeah, only two years younger than me. I look a lot older than you.

Speaker 1 11:34

Oh, we had the same cool classic yeah, we had the same generation. When it comes to links, let's be just in terms of the football. Obviously it takes a bit of courage, then, for someone who is socially awkward to put yourself, yeah, into that situation. Yeah, and then you're almost forcing yourself to interact with all these people because you're part of a team, yeah, when a lot of the time you've been quite insular and that bravado, that piece around.

Speaker 2 12:00

You know, I think that was the mask that I put on quite soon because I thought that was that bravado that we talk about connecting people, these young adults, I mean I played football right until I was 40 years old. That attitude, that energy, that love for other people. You'd see that when they finished the football they'd go and obviously have a few drinks after, or a curry, whatever it might be. So that social side of things I really quite enjoyed because it was very different to my normal world. A lot of people would think I'm an extrovert, but actually after I've had that sort of energy from people, I have to retreat for a couple of days and spend some time on my own charge, your own battery yeah, 100. And I've got to be really careful as to how often I do that because I'm drawn to people, I love finding out about people and whatever, but yeah.

Speaker 2 12:46

So back to the question around how that sort of materialized. I don't really know. I suspect it's that information overload and me then just being completely anxious because I was worrying about whether dinosaurs were going to come back and eat me. You know random things like that, and then throughout school then that sort of of looks like a very shy person that was happy just to excel at work. So I just thought you've got to remember the schools back then. I don't really know much about the curriculum now, but there are things within the curriculum I'd love to change around creativity, but very much back then it was even more so around. You will recall as much information as you can to get all these A's that we want you to get, and that's what I thought success looked like. So I was all for that. I wanted to be the top of my game when it comes to football and the top of my game when it came to all the grades, and actually I was. So in that sense I was winning.

Speaker 1 13:35

Was there much creativity? Because I know you said it was academia but was there drawing, creating in that sense, because you're overthinking? In itself, that's a sign of a highly active imagination, a highly active created brain, but you weren't navigating it and going oh, I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 13:51

It was more no, it's weird because, like you know, if I said to myself now, am I creative? I would say very much so I am, because I now understand what a creative is. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're an artist or a photographer or something, but back then I was led to believe that my natural sort of route forward would be by getting straight A's and then my world would be my oyster. Yeah, there was art and I took art as an option and actually I did a real deep piece. I was quite good at art. I was gutted, talking about your deep piece, that you wanted to draw cartoons.

Speaker 2 14:21

I loved drawing cartoons. It's reallyignant, actually, because I lost my mum 13 months ago. My dad brought around some books, three books that taught you how to draw the good old, how to draw in perspective and all this sort of stuff and how to draw a face. So I loved drawing cartoons. So when I took art as an option, I said to the art teacher can I specialise in cartoons? I don't want to be drawing apples and some rubbish at real life, the classic still life yeah, it's still life I'm rubbish at it and she was very much.

Speaker 2 14:49

Yes, of course she can, but then when I became like on her course, obviously couldn't, but the deep pit was you had to pick like a, b and it was a man-made. And I remember drawing for my exam it was the statue of liberty set in front of the harashima balm and also wow yeah, it was quite beautiful versus destruction versus beauty yeah, but I messed up the statue of liberty's nose.

Speaker 2 15:12

Unfortunately the pencil went straight through the paper. But yeah, you know I love drawing. So actually talking to dad a lot about the past, since mom I was drawing all the time and I was writing poetry really yeah, I wrote a lot of poetry from the university. I got massively into john dunn. He's a metaphysical poet, quite satirical, big use of the hyperbole and the vernacular various, like colloquial language. There's the flea oh, it's really cool but I won't go into it. But I was obsessed with that shakespeare and that all came out of my English literature A-levels and actually it was developed almost by. I went to Oxford University. I didn't get in but they sent me off to do four days' worth of matriculation and I was in the college, I think.

Speaker 2 15:54

What's matriculation, so assessments and exams Like old school. I used to have to wear a gown, so it was like incorporating me into the Oxford life, really, I think.

Speaker 1 16:03

Simply because of your high-performing academia.

Speaker 2 16:06

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to do law at Oxford but it was born out of I'd failed at football, if that's the right way of putting it. I was never going to be a professional footballer. That was made very clear to me at 16 years old and then I didn't know what to do. So I just carried on that pursuit of excelling in GCSE and A gcsc and a level and all the a's followed. So the response I suppose from my teachers were very much going to be a lawyer, going to be a doctor, whatever it might be. But what was the driver for you.

Speaker 1 16:31

There was it cash, yeah, cash, it's a status yeah, kudos, yeah.

Speaker 2 16:36

So alim and bill was on the telly at the time la law. So I had all that sort of ideation, an idea of what law could look like dancing babies, cocktails, whatever calista flocker I was in but yeah, it was born out of as a kid, like you wanted, of ideation an idea of what law could look like dancing babies, cocktails, whatever Callista Flockhart I was in but yeah, it was born out of as a kid you wanted to be a footballer. You've got no real sort of plan to do anything else. You're certainly not leaning into anything. My dad was an engineer, my mom was like a jeweler sort of thing, and mom was very much part-time. She ended up a day as a teaching assistant and working in education. She's absolutely brilliant individual. My sister's a teacher, my brother's a detective. So I thought I'll be a lawyer, yeah, but I hated it and there's definitely a continuation of a story in that.

Speaker 1 17:13

Yeah, but there was something your dad said to you when you went to oxford for this meticulation thing. Wasn't it about these masks, the bravado, the shows we have to put on in certain environments?

Speaker 2 17:25

sometimes, yeah, hang on, actually, mate. So the journey had come to this point where, like my first big rejection, I wasn't going to be a footballer. I was told that was not going to happen and that realization was really sad, and I probably have never really. You don't unpick that as a 16 year old because you think I'll go and make it somewhere else. But that never happened, obviously.

Speaker 1 17:46

Do you recognise that perhaps started to build a bit more resilience in you? Possibly I?

Speaker 2 17:50

then got slammed with another quick rejection in relation to being told to go to Oxford University and not getting into Oxford University, even though Oxford University had phoned my teacher to say they were going to make me an offer. Really bizarre. Oh, wow, teacher, to say they were going to make me an offer really bizarre. Oh, wow, yeah, really bizarre. But yeah. So dad had dropped me off to merton college. We'd made an open application, we didn't know what to do and he dropped me off at this most beautiful college.

Speaker 2 18:13

As a 16, 17 year old kid, you think this is oxford university, but this is just one of their colleges. They've got like 16, 20 of these colleges. It's huge. It's got its own chapel, it's just mental. And there's me, little old me, having him got a suit and wearing my dad's leather jacket.

Speaker 2 18:28

And it was either at this point or when he dropped me off at university. We both can't remember, but the conversation went along the lines of you can be whoever you want to be, son, and it wasn't him saying to me change who you are at all. He just probably saw this real awkward person that was actually good at communicating but didn't enjoy doing it. So at that point it triggered something in me to think, okay, maybe I can perform if I can play this part that is connecting people and confident and loud ish, um, that might help me. And it was really awkward. I'd have to be doing breathing exercises before I went into rooms and then I played this part.

Speaker 2 19:01

And then there were so many other ish that might help me and it was really awkward. I'd have to be doing breathing exercises before I went into rooms and then I played this part and then there were so many other things that happened in my life. Reality TV, whatever it might be, that sort of just added to this mask. But talking of masks, I come back to this quite a bit. It's not a joke. It might be a joke I never deliver it as a joke but this guy goes into the doctor and he says doctor, I'm feeling really down, I'm depressed, I'm sad. He said I'm coco the clown's in town, go and see him.

Speaker 2 19:28

And he replies I am coco the clown so sometimes I feel like I'm playing this part but also carrying a weight of emotions that you don't often see. But I'm just trying to be authentic as much as I can. I do understand. Now I'm better at communicating, I'm not as nervous as I used to be socially, but I still get those anxieties rise up most days.

Speaker 1 19:49

I think we all do, don't we, yeah, yeah, it's very much human problems, yeah, you said, it's a coping mechanism.

Speaker 2 19:54

It's a crutch. We all carry crutches. Luckily, mine isn't drink or drugs. Mine is just playing this part that enables whatever that might be conversations, connections, purpose, purpose. It just enables things because there's another three or four people feeling exactly the same and if I can bring the best out of them by being that person that facilitates the conversation, bring it on and this is why we wanted you on the podcast piece, because it's that whole conversation we've had about.

Speaker 1 20:17

I want the podcast to inspire people to do shit that inspires them and you are, you're living that. You are inspiring others I'm trying to man.

Speaker 2 20:24

I find it challenging because to accept that I inspire, but that's exactly what I want to do. I want, I've got, I've had a journey that certainly isn't linear. Just catch me, if you can, if you've seen that film, that's the next thing. I'll be a pilot, probably next week.

Speaker 1 20:37

But that's like we say. I think no one sticks in an industry necessarily for 40 year career. Now I think we go through season, yeah, and let's just talk a little bit. You didn't get to oxford, you went to birmingham. Yeah, you're a proud brummie, yeah, proper proud brummie. And you went to birmingham uni studied law, yep, but then something, let's stop it.

Speaker 2 20:57

Even you know exactly, but it's not everyone. Oh, pj from big brother.

Speaker 1 20:58

Yeah, oh, I remember pj from big brother I'm like, yes, but that's not the reason I PJ from Big Brother. Oh, I remember PJ from Big Brother. I'm like, yes, but that's not the reason I've got PJ on my podcast. Big Brother is a section of your life, but yeah, that's not the reason why I got you on the podcast, not because you're PJ from Big Brother in inverted collars.

Big Brother and Finding Fame

Speaker 1 21:18

That was basically like your last name for the three years after the event but I'm interested in that because, for one, it wasn't really your decision to go and do that to start with, was it no? But also for someone who is so openly anxious, socially awkward, shy yeah, tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go on national television, yeah, and the story around this is brilliant because you had a great experience. I suppose a lot of people associate reality TV now, because it is a changed entity, shall we say, with oh, it's a fame quest, it's a hunt for followers. It was a very different time. You were a 21-year-old guy, weren't you? Can we talk a little bit about that experience, because I do think it's very interesting. What on earth was going through your mind as someone who is socially awkward? I'll tell you what I'm gonna go on national tv where there's cameras watching my every single move.

Speaker 2 22:09

Good question, I think. The irony is I suspect people think I've answered this question a lot when I actually haven't, because my mates have never really asked me, because they've seen me live big brother and sometimes feel that they need to pull me out of that and back into normality. Yeah, so long story cut very short, mate. I was at I just done my degree birmingham uni, absolutely loved it. I am a proud brummie. I do actually think that might have played a part in my anxiety because we used to get beaten, didn't we all sprummies? Or might we used to be the ones that you know?

Speaker 1 22:41

well, we're down trodden a oh it's all the worst accent in the UK yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 22:46

And we still play the joker, don't we? We still play the fool a little bit. We certainly don't bang the drum as much as we should, and I'm sure we'll come on to that. But Big Brother Mate literally my best mate's mum unfortunately she's not with us anymore. We lost her four weeks after we lost mum for and she was a massive Big Brother fan like literally writing spreadsheets. She voted for him and whatever it might be, and she'd experienced, she'd known me since I was 13, so she'd seen this confidence come out of nowhere.

Speaker 2 23:12

This PJ now facilitating conversations, going to the pub, being the ringleader, all that, the person that would have to organise the holidays, bringing people together, it'd be great for Big Brother. So I had this sort of application pack land in my mum and dad's porch and, yeah, I just filled it in, put the old VHS recorder up and off, I went, sort of thing, and that VHS recording is still out on social media somewhere. It's a one take. It's grainy as hell. I'm literally in my mum and dad's living room, where dad now lives still, and I said something ridiculous I must have been 20 years old saying I want to do Big Brother because I want to get off with Natalie Imbruglia and I got so much stick for that, although Natalie Imbruglia sent me her old catalogue of music a big bunch of flowers, yeah, a big sign, a voice message and everything. It was amazing, yeah, man. So it worked for me.

Speaker 2 24:01

I never got a date, unfortunately, but hey, she got bigger fish to fry, but yeah, so literally I was at law school at the time. Look would have it. There's about three or four months period of like interviews and assessments and psychometric tests, wherever it might be, and they were generally on a wednesday or a tuesday, one of the two and I had that day off at law school. So it was all working out for me. And, yeah, I literally after that sort of three, four months of tests, and I met the people at end of mile and they came up and filmed me and my parents and my mates going out for a night and all this but even during your audition process in birmingham didn't suddenly the switch turned on a character, and so what?

Speaker 1 24:40

there was probably thousands of people there trying to audition for this. Yeah, what did you do, pete?

Speaker 2 24:43

It was. Yeah, I mean it was well, it probably well, it did work. To be fair, I was at the. It was at the Ibis in the Arcadian. For anyone global, that's a hotel in Birmingham.

Speaker 2 24:53

Yeah, there's a hotel in the Arcadian in Birmingham and we had to meet there. So imagine, and me, I didn't think anything genuinely when they asked me to go. I thought it would be literally I'd open a door and go and have an interview or something. Genuinely, I was so naive as to what might be ahead of me. But I turned up there's this huge, massive pop idol, britain's Got Talent vibe queue, loads of people, and I thought I ain't waiting in that, no way. And then I thought actually there must be some scouts knocking about to see how people react. People are going to be going into this house not knowing each other. So did my breathing exercises, played the part, put the mask on, went straight up to the bouncers or the security at the front and said I'm here for the big brother auditions. And they were like so are they?

Speaker 2 25:36

you and these three thousand people I said no, it's all right, mate. They've asked me to come straight to the queue, like straight to you, and ask you to let me in. They looked at me like I was a. No, honestly, mate, why would I lie? Blah, blah, blah. They go off. Must have asked somebody let me in. So there was already hundreds of people within this sort of reception area and I now know that there were scouts in there just seeing how people react. So I played that part. I was single one of my.

Speaker 2 25:59

We did one assessment that day when it was like if you could ask anybody a question, what would it be? And I've just said ask number 13 have you got a boyfriend? She said yeah. I said I could ask another question. They said yeah, said uh, do you reckon it'll last? She said not sure. So that's another question. I said you fancy a date tonight? Yeah, but I didn't want. I just felt so awkward saying that and even saying it to you now it makes me cringe because that wasn't the person I was. But I knew that would be looking for certain characters to put into this show. Maybe it's an intelligence or I don't know whether that's the right word, I don't know.

Speaker 2 26:33

Skill set and adaptability that's what I did and I got into the show and actually one of the interesting things was that when I came out I got to spend some time with the producers and you don't see what's going on. You don't realize you've got a cameraman on you forever whilst you're in there, just in case you blow off in your sleep or you say something, snore, whatever. So you learn so much more about the show that you've just been in, because getting in is just a frenzy. It's crazy. But I said why did you pick me? Why did you call me? And maybe we can talk about that conversation.

Speaker 2 27:08

When they asked me to do it, because that was quite a pivotal part of my life okay, and they showed me and it was a bit of a screen really like you imagine, popeye, they're all putting people into different judge categories or whatever it might be, and it just said PJ, every man's man. So I was like what you mean? He said well, you know, you told me that you've just been at Oxford University for assessments and you've got friends say friends, people I played football with who are now in jail, but you've also doing X, y, I could communicate with loads of different people Every man's man, every man's man.

Speaker 1 27:32

How poignant is that now? Yeah, it feels that way. Hindsight, we obviously haven't told the rest of the story to you yet, but people when we get to the end of it and we go PJ.

Speaker 2 27:43

every man's man, he could be a guy you have on Phil Edgar Jones, head of Sky Arts. He said that to me. He was head of Endemol at the time. Really Lovely gentleman. His daughter's a massive actor. I can't remember her name but she's very famous and he's a lovely guy. He was the one that said it. But just to backtrack a little bit an experience that has probably shaped me a lot more than I'll ever think, that's what I was going to ask yeah, I had a moment where I had to decide whether to go on.

Speaker 2 28:09

You know, you have all this fun You're 19, 20, being put up on these beautiful hotels on a Tuesday night, being told there's no other contestants auditioning here tonight. But you go down to the bar and there's loads of young ladies and gentlemen and you think these are them. You know, you get your £20 expenses, you have a few beers and you have all that experience of getting down on the train and all that. It's proper. It's proper what's the word? It grew me at a time where I didn't have as much confidence.

Speaker 1 28:36

Experiencing all these things must have been helping with your confidence.

Speaker 2 28:40

Yeah, it developed me one way or another. I had to go and find these places in London. We didn't have to hold the maps on your phone.

Speaker 1 28:45

It was an A to Z.

Speaker 2 28:46

Yeah, yeah, it was Literally. I remember the good. I may have, even drove to one, and you write down M6, Junction 2, left.

Speaker 1 28:53

Join M25, M1, M25.

Speaker 2 28:55

I can't believe there weren't any more crashes.

Speaker 2 28:58

But yes, I remember no-transcript. Phil called me. Dad had this massive mobile phone it's like the size of a brick attached to the front of his car and he answered. And phil said look, peach, with the first call we're making, we want to know whether you'd be in big brother, because by then you'd had a letter saying you're in the last 24. So you're either going to be one of the 12 housemates or you're one of the 12 standbys. And about three days after that, I remember reading the post on the toilet. Mom and dad slid it under the toilet. You got some post. I was having a poo, maybe, or something, I don't know. And I remember reading this, thinking, wow, this is bizarre, this could mean something here. And it was at that point that I started to research all the photographs that started coming out in sun this is what the new house looks like and I started to visualize me being in there, thinking, been in there, thinking they're definitely gonna ask me to do it now I never, ever thought I'd be a standby you were visualizing.

Speaker 2 29:56

Yeah, well, I now know I was. I didn't know that was a thing to do, but I used to literally go on to wherever it was msm sky and they'd leak these photographs of what the owl street studios was going to look like and I just remembered thinking I'll be on that sofa. How cool is that. So, yeah, anyway, fast forward back to phil, give us. I said mate, can I just have five minutes and can you call me that please?

Speaker 2 30:16

What are you feeling in that moment? Well, it's bizarre, mate, because I'm getting like quite my adrenaline's building up now just thinking of it, because it just must have been that whole. It was like the world stood still, everyone was walking around this car, but in that moment in time, for me it was just bizarre. So I looked at my dad, my dad's just really. He's a brilliantly clever, like the most clever person I would ever make. Wow, like super intelligent, but so grassroots I want to say grassroots, a real geezer. He had a lot of struggle in his life. He lost his dad really early, lost his mom at 21 years old. He was a real mommy and daddy's boy, catholic upbringing, just a sound guy. And he just looked at me and said just don't have any what-if moments.

Speaker 1 31:00

And wow, how profound is that. Your dad's full of these. He's like don't have any what-if moments.

Speaker 2 31:05

You can be who you want to be.

Speaker 1 31:06

That idea of reinventing yourself.

Speaker 2 31:08

Honestly, I told you he's a clever geezer man, modern day philosopher he is. He's a clever geezer man. He's a modern-day philosopher he is. He's well-read. He used to read like three or four books a week. Do you think that's where you got that? Yeah, I think so. It's just. I would say, if you look at the if class, people are as intelligent because of grades and jobs. The Ellisys do all right in that sense, but it's so much more than that.

Speaker 2 31:31

Now, I don't agree with judging people because you don't find the creatives of this world, do you? Because my son is a creative. He was showing me the videos I'll show you later. These videos he's created on CapCut and stuff are incredible, like the layers, the transparency. He's only 14. He's taught that himself, so he will be a creative. He's acting, he's writing, he's drawing. Well, we've got to inspire that. Yeah, man, but he'll be his next steps.

Speaker 2 31:57

If anything could be dictated by whether he gets an A-star in DT, he's going to get an A-star in DT, but what does that mean? And equally, he doesn't give a munchies about education. He's got a head on his shoulders that he already knows. That won't define him, which you need to get those grades, but you don't. But yeah, my dad was just so profound Don't have a what-if moment, son. So I thought, well, I'll have to say yes. And I am so glad with hindsight now that you know that I didn't have a what-if moment, because I genuinely believe that that would have been a heavier burden to carry than not doing it, and I play that into a lot of my things in life. I'd much prefer to do and fail than have a what-if moment. Choose your regrets, yeah, 100%. What was that? Choose your regrets, yeah.

Speaker 2 32:40

I love that Choose your regrets.

Speaker 1 32:42

Because, whatever choice you make, we've chosen to sit down today. You could have chosen to go out for lunch with your missus and probably have a lovely day, or whatever I'm going to have to do that later. And shout out to Kelly, because that's how we met. Basically yeah, essentially yeah, isn't it?

Speaker 2 32:58

So, yeah, I think that thing you said earlier about I'm now more comfortable with the fact that I've had a number of chapters and stories in my life, projects wherever that might be, seasons, however we look at it, yeah, and I've been able to edit where and how those sit in my life and how important they play out in other people's lives, and to be that master, creating your own sort of like film or video. I even have a backstory. Sometimes, you know, I even have like music playing in the back in the background when I'm thinking of things or walking, you know everyone has your own soundtrack.

Speaker 2 33:26

That's right, yeah I think it's really important to understand that. Yeah, choose your own regrets, man.

Speaker 1 33:32

I love that yeah, you have to choose. You have to choose your regrets. And if we don't know, do we? Because if you hadn't gone on Big Brother, the trajectory of what your life would have been like would have been very different.

Speaker 2 33:41

I'm now a massive believer of. If I hadn't opened that door into your studio today and had this conversation, my life would have been very different, and it's you know, yeah, I mean Big, yeah, I mean Big Brother was a massive, massive part in my life for a million reasons.

Speaker 1 33:55

I just want to say that because you openly suffered from the social anxiety. Yes, I think with the football and the university and the mask that you put on, you'd almost developed this second persona. That was maybe not as difficult to get into as you might think, but underlying it, that anxiety is still very brave to go. Yeah, that's all very well. A lot of people can talk the talk but doing the thing.

Speaker 2 34:16

Yeah, thanks, mate. It was really tough actually. And this was another interesting thing about when I came out because they're very open with you at the start to say you will play a pawn in our entertainment show, what they do. At one stage you go and have an interview with he was the famous psychologist. He'd come on and analyze the contestants. I can't remember his name, I think he was French, and one of the stages was he absolutely ripped me apart and I now know he did that with all the other contestants Intentionally. So on the way home on the train, I was asking myself questions that I really needed to ask. This is going to ruin your law career. You're going to have people vilify you, you spit at you. You know I'm thinking what's he telling me?

Speaker 1 34:56

this?

Speaker 2 34:56

almost doing like this? Should we say shadow work behind it, to let you know that this could not be the best experience, whether that's a tick box exercise, whether it's psychologically sound, it was, but it worked for me because on that train, as a 20 year old, I did ask myself those questions that you probably wouldn't have because you're just thinking about I'm gonna meet loads of fit girls in this house. It's gonna be great fun, but as an overthinker, did you play out some crazy scenarios?

Speaker 1 35:19

yeah, I did.

Speaker 2 35:20

It answered a lot of questions that I never would have asked. Did I really want to be a lawyer? Didn't really care, I hadn't even started my career. But yeah, if it ruined my law career, so what? I wasn't there in the sense that I would take a massive risk, knowing it would ruin my career, and one of the sort of you had the luxury, I suppose, of being told three things from the outside world because we had nothing coming in, nothing coming in, no stimuli. You know, we didn't know who was playing in football World Cup and that makes it really difficult. I'm sure we'll talk about that in a minute. But one of those communication pieces was if the law firm that I was going to practice with in the September communicated with MNML that it was ruining my career, I could make the decision then to come out.

Speaker 1 36:00

And I never got that from them.

Speaker 2 36:02

They were really forward thinking.

Speaker 1 36:03

The law firm. What were the other two?

Speaker 2 36:04

Whether there was a death in the family oh, of course, or, I think, an outbreak of war or something like that.

Speaker 1 36:09

Oh yeah, it was quite deep.

Speaker 2 36:10

I didn't really care about what England were. No, because we used to get people tell us over the fence, yeah, because you don't realise our street studios is so close to a housing development. I used to get up dead early. I don't sleep very well and this one guy I'd love to find him. If you're listening, let us know. I'd get up at half five sitting there I was on the poor side making some. This guy, he'd obviously just watch us live. Oh, pj's all. He'd run out. Pj, you pratt. So you know, yeah, whatever, we'd have a little chat and then big brother would call me in quickly pj to the diary room, sort of thing. No communication with the outside so he used to tell us how england we're getting on and stuff.

Speaker 2 36:43

But it was a struggle. So you saying brave, I appreciate that, thank you. You didn't realize you were being brave, but two things happened. I suppose the experience was a lot different to what I thought it would be, because after, say, a week, I was in there for six, seven weeks, so I can't remember exactly what it was. 60 days, I think it's a long time, and after three, four days you're done with the standard questions what's your family like? What do you do? What would you like to do? Who do you support? What's?

Speaker 2 37:07

your favorite telly the other small talk yeah, and it's gone, all that stuff after. You can't say do you watch EastEnders last night, see the football? Because you've got nothing to talk about. So it goes really deep and those conversations were.

Speaker 2 37:19

It takes you places that you never thought you would be in a house that you thought was just about jumping into a swimming pool with people that you perhaps never thought you would be meeting either yeah, and also, when you came out, phil and the team were like actually, because I said my mum and dad had said all my mates what we didn't even see the first couple of weeks and they were actually. We had to pull you away from being in the limelight for the first two weeks because we wanted you to stay in, but you were very different to what we'd seen. So we're just working out what role you're going to play, because they expected me to go in and be this bravado. But actually there were real alpha males in there alison hammond, johnny reagan, kate law that big strong characters alex sibley and there's me, the real person going, can't cope with this.

Speaker 2 38:01

So I withdrew for a couple of weeks and I'm like what's going on here? I'm not saying they chose who went. It's an entertainment show they've got to put on, so they were just working out what part I played. So that's really interesting as well, yeah, but yeah, mate, it was a. I do think it's a brave thing to do, especially then because it was a proper social experiment yeah, that's what I was about to say.

Speaker 1 38:20

It's a very different thing now, isn't it?

Speaker 2 38:22

well, I think now you go in, you can make a lot of money. You can get your Instagram likes again. There's a bravery there, because I couldn't have coped with of reaction that some of these kids get now. I mean allison hammond, people like that. They get it all the time, and what? Even now. Because she's so much in the public eye yeah, she gets some very angry people, very rude, racist. You know it's disgusting, but she's. She says she can cope with it and I hope she can.

Speaker 1 38:46

But there's only so much you can.

Speaker 2 38:48

No, you shouldn't. But unfortunately we live in a world where people want to have an opinion and we sometimes take their opinion on board when we shouldn't. So yeah, I'd struggle with that. So it's brave to do that sort of thing anyway, but back then it was, I think, more for me. Psychologically. It could have led into so many different things. So I saw people. I did see people get attacked off the back of it and verbally abused. I was very lucky I never got anything I got. I might have got a bloke, say I was a pratt or something when you go to a PA, but it was nothing physical over the wall.

Speaker 1 39:15

Anyway, yeah, get that anyway.

Speaker 2 39:16

Do you know what I mean? It was just a bit of jealousy, maybe I don't know not jealousy, but there's me getting paid to go on a stage and sign autographs. It's ridiculous. But yeah, I was very lucky, everyone was so lovely to me and I had a great experience and you had an agent and all that sort of stuff and yeah, I had the same agent as David Beckham at one point.

Speaker 2 39:34

I mean it's ridiculous, isn't it? To be fair, I think they got paid by E4 or Endemol to be the agent of people that. There were six or seven people that pushed that way and I was one of those, and it was great. I made a lot of money very quickly, none of which I am anymore, nor invested.

Speaker 1 39:50

However, but you were a young lad. You're 21, yeah, you know what?

Speaker 2 39:52

my dad gave me some advice as well. He's a bit of a an oracle, isn't he? And it was like 110 mortgages back then, so I didn't even need a deposit, so he'd worked out what I would have been getting paid. And he did say maybe you want to look at buying some houses, or whatever. It was very fleeting. He might not even remember saying it. He might not have even been him that said it. I just always attribute cool things to my old dad, but I never did that. Instead, I went with the fast cars, the fast lifestyle, nice flat in town, and, if I'm honest, those years certainly defined a lot of what I'm all about now, and I'm very grateful for them.

Speaker 1 40:23

Can you say a little bit more about that, because I guess the trappings of again, it's very different now, but the trappings of celebrity culture, shall we say. We spoke, touched on it earlier. You wanted to go into law because it was a status thing, yeah, a money thing, a cash thing. Is there a bit of that wrapped up in that?

Speaker 2 40:42

yeah, possibly, I think I think what the big brother thing allowed me to do was to have a very sort of small insight into what it is to be a professional footballer, Because as a young kid I was driving fast cars, living in a beautiful house, lots of disposable income, the fame with the lowercase f. There were people queuing out the doors to see me. It was ridiculous.

Speaker 1 41:04

OK Magazine. Yeah, front of OK.

Speaker 2 41:05

Mag. Yeah, lotus, it was just crazy, crazy. Some of these experiences I can't even remember and some that I can remember can't serve itself.

Speaker 1 41:14

You know experiences I can't even remember nor, and some that I can remember, can't serve itself.

Speaker 2 41:16

You know, it was just mad, yeah, but I think I soon realized that I'm not saying I could have done anything with it. I did have opportunities. I turned down, but there was a very. There was a clear line in the sand that I drew. After three years I thought actually there's a lot more to life than living the way that I was. I was partying hard, I was what was it?

Speaker 1 41:32

what was the catalyst at that point that made you go hang on a minute?

Speaker 2 41:35

I was 24, 25. I'd been living off Big Brother, say, for three, four years and I just didn't feel fulfilled and there was a lack of confidence. I was being asked to present and do stuff on TV and I just didn't back myself. So actually I withdrew back into the old PJ and thought, actually, the safety net it here is to go and practice as a lawyer, which I did for eight years, and I got back to that money piece which was nice and stable and afforded us a lovely life and the kudos as in I was able to say, well, I've had that time in my life. That will never make my cv.

Speaker 1 42:04

I need to start dictating what that cv looks like now was that a hard transition for you to make in your brain, because obviously public recognition, possibly, possibly fame, and then suddenly, possibly I think there was- I think so publicly.

Speaker 2 42:18

I've never had a no light to my face, so I've always thought that it's never what's the word? Created a ceiling, this Big Brother thing. But it would have done behind closed doors. I'm sure people would have had an opinion and I did sense that sometimes people, because people were interested in what I'd done, sort of thing, and it was probably less oh wow, you're a good lawyer and more oh, you've done Big Brother, because I was. As you said you joked earlier my name was PJ from Big Brother 3 for about 10 years and no one knew my surname. So I had to live that. That was, that was my responsibility. You know I knew that would be something I never denied people because they were watching it. It was a big part of their lives as much as it was mine.

Speaker 1 42:54

But did it feel like a burden around your neck?

Transitioning from Fame to Purpose

Speaker 2 42:57

Yeah, a bit of an albatross, because I did want to move on and away, sort of thing, and I was being dragged back into that conversation and whether I had started playing that part and being less serious. But actually you know what I think? Fun is an underrated business tool and I was having fun. Fun, he's a an underrated business tool and I was having fun and I delivered all the work that I was paid to do. But what happened was there was a very obvious point where my wife had turned to me and said you're not the person, you're not you. This job is. It's hamstringing creativity, while you're backing the law.

Speaker 1 43:29

This is yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 43:30

So she said, just give it up. And I was like you what? I just bought a lovely house, we just had a kid yeah, call it up. And I was like you what? I just bought a lovely house, we just had a kid, yeah, call it a day. And I was like, wow, you back me that much? Yeah, of course I would, and I owe her everything because, yeah, I just left law and it took me a while to build back into that sort of those, that money coming into the house. But we found a way. It's bizarre, isn't it? Sometimes when you think you're so focused on the money, how am I going to replace that? You just find a way. We never, ever, I wasn't working for a while, say three, four months maybe. How long had you been with Kelly at this point? So we'd been married. So that would mean I'd been with her for at least three years, and I think when we bought our house we'd been married about two years.

Speaker 1 44:15

So probably six, six, seven years, but did you meet?

Speaker 2 44:16

kelly as a lawyer or did you meet her as pj from big brother? Interesting, let me work this out. I just started going back into my training contract because what I had to do was so I'd done the law degree, I'd done my legal practice course, law school, basically. Then I'd went into big brother and you have to do your articles, like a training contract two years. And I was doing that in london. So that's when I met cal. So I was about to go, but I'd obviously done big brother. She knew who I was. She wasn't a fan of me in the house, I was gonna.

Speaker 1 44:43

I was gonna say do you think she fancied spencer? Everyone did, everyone did but do you think the personality type that you were about then? Do you think, as I say, she's you said she didn't fancy you, but do you think she could have fallen in love with that pj? Yeah, I think the importance on this, kelly, and the importance of having someone in your corner to back you enough to go, you know, fuck that law career that you've just trained, however many years for, yeah, I believe there's something in you. And also, what do you think she would have fallen in love with? Pj from big brother rather than pj the lawyer? And what was it that, apart from her loving you, yeah, exclusively. Yeah, what was it you think she saw in you that gave her the belief to go? Yeah, let's just disrupt this whole family environment we've got, we've got a new house. Yeah, we might not have any money for a bit, but I see I think so.

Speaker 2 45:33

kelly has been like my rock, like she's been my one of my biggest fans and when I say that she believes that I could do anything I want genuinely and she always backs me in that sense. But it's also backed up by the most beautiful sort of attitude to life in that if we were safe and we could afford to eat, she doesn't mind where that is, she doesn't care, she's not materialistic. Success to me has looked very differently over different decades of my life.

Speaker 1 46:03

Okay, so you've touched on the materialistic elements the nice cars, the nice lifestyle of lawyer, and this, that and the other. But Kelly sounds like she's your balance. She just wants you and family.

Speaker 2 46:13

Just brings you back down to earth what's important in life, and I know this more than ever now since losing mum. This perspective, unfortunately, has been wrapped up in grief and my mum's overpaid for this everlasting gift. But I had it anyway, because Kelly was constantly giving me this perspective, in that it doesn't really matter what car we drive, the car will still get you to that destination. You just gotta be happy. You've got to be happy. You've got to be confident in yourself, that you've got to value your own self. She would. When I first met her, she was. She just did things very methodically. I'll get this car because I can afford this car and it gets me to the destination I need to go to. I'm doing the job that I love. That was her main consistent. She always wanted to work in radio and she worked in radio for as long as I knew her, until she there we go, yeah, until she fell pregnant and unfortunately I sport her dreams of going to london because she was sought after.

Speaker 2 47:01

She was a brilliant producer and but, yes, she's just brought this consistency around what's important in life and she's starting to treat herself a little bit more now and enjoy those parts of her life that she never really thought she'd want to enjoy, but she does. But her consistency has been brilliant for me because she just gives you that framework and that reminder that all those material things, all those things that are now own and I would give away in an instant to spend a second with my mom she doesn't care for, and actually nor do I now. So she was able to spot that actually, if you're unhappy in your work, that is something that needs to change, because all the other beautiful things in life that come with you being happy and comfortable and stable would never have happened for me, because I would just been so anxious and just bored and lethargic and woe is me.

Speaker 1 47:51

So she snapped me right out of that so there's something to be said for having that person in your corner that believes in you that much right oh yeah, man, she's literally like she and she knows she.

Speaker 2 48:01

There's only a few people in this world probably name them on one hand and I won't because I'll probably upset the others that should be on the left that she just understands me and my mom was the my main go-to when I needed someone to just understand. And she just understands. She gets my complexities, she understands my anxieties and she fell in love with that person. That is a little bit of a troubled soul, I think, and she's not out there to fix me or save me. She's not one of those people. But I think she understood I was vulnerable. She saw through the bravado big brother. She didn't care for that and we fell in love very quickly.

Speaker 2 48:36

It became very easy for both of us. We sort of moved in the second night because I think we were both at that point very. We were just looking for some like companionship, some sort of stability, some sort of normality. She'd come out of a quite a not just come out of, but she'd had a challenging sort of relationship, quite young, thinking that was the way to go. She bought a house on her own, got all that independence and she was living the life that I still don't think I could live now from an independence point of view, and she brought me into that life and I'm grateful for that. I really am. So you've got that backing.

Speaker 1 49:09

Yeah, you decide to ditch out of that law career that you've been in for such a long time. Yeah, about eight, nine years. Man, yeah, what's the mentality? What are you feeling? What are you going? Oh, I want to do this. I don't know what I want to do. What the hell am I doing?

Speaker 2 49:22

yeah, I must admit there was a period of time where I was like trying to set help set up a professional golf tour or development golf tour with a friend. Yeah, um, helping set up this music wedding video company, selling suites online, selling retro cycling jerseys online all brilliant, creative, entrepreneurial sort of things to do, but certainly a process of me trying to work out what I wanted to do. And actually, you know what? I'll be honest with you now, my brain is always thinking of other things that I could do, but they're always focused now around purpose, which is what came into my life, unbeknown to me, through becoming a dad. So we'd had Blake and I'd found Twitter or X, whatever they call it now.

Speaker 2 50:07

And I stumbled across this journey about a lad called Harry Mosley, a young kid. He was dying. It was simple as that. There's no way of saying it other than that he had a brain tumour. So he was. But whilst he knew that and the family knew that, he was creating these bracelets and selling them outside supermarkets and some celebrities got involved with it and what have you, and it was blowing up and he was only eight.

Speaker 2 50:31

I think Harry Mosley and I had this sort of morbid fascination where I knew he was going to die. I just had this child that I was looking at every night. I was crying at the John Lewis adverts because I'd found this heart that I never thought I had and I just felt like I needed to be around this journey. It was weird I can't really articulate it Knowing the young boy was going to pass away. He passed away and I and the young boy was going to pass away. He passed away and I thought you know, I've got to do something now. So I reached out and I said look, how can I help? I met his mom and said look, I'll do a golf day or something. And this golf day just turned into something that was just mental, absolutely mental. I was still a lawyer at that time but, yeah, just the response was crazy and me and the wife ended up in marriage counseling because of it, because because I was working in the day until 8 o'clock at night, coming and having my tea and then working until 3 o'clock in the morning to set this thing up. And it turned into a 1,200-people black-tie event in the ICC and we raised over 120 grand. It was just mental, yeah, which me and my mate, tim Andrews, created. We talked about the sliding doors moment earlier. I got to about three months into setting this thing up, still knowing then that it had to be a ball, because the response was just ridiculous it couldn't be a golf day, um. And I just went to facebook and said, can somebody help me? And actually tim andrews popped his hand up. You know, proverbially across facebook, I'll help you, mate.

Speaker 2 51:44

Next day we met somewhere and the rest is history. We put this inaugural harry mosey charity ball on. We raised 100 and odd grand. We did the second one. The next year raised another hundred odd grand. Tim had organized this sort of bike ride from Switzerland back to Birmingham. We did that. We raised another 300 grand and I was hooked. They asked us to be a trustee of the charity, which we were for two years. And then, off the back of that, love Brum was born with me and Tim. So like that sliding doors moment is crazy, but again problem solving for other people is simply a creative skill.

Speaker 2 52:15

Yeah if you put it like that, mate it was. I thought it was a skill that I brought to the table because I was a lawyer. That's how it was easy for me to think that way they want me around this charity because I can fill forms in or I can have good conversations or I'm good at negotiating. But actually, if I look back at it, I was creating things that that charity ball still goes on there and that charity has been going for 14, 15 years. So that charity ball I'm not saying it's all on me, but that would have raised hundreds and hundreds, I dare say probably nearly a million quid for that charity.

Speaker 1 52:47

Yeah, and me and team set that up and that I'm really proud of that, really proud and you should be very, very proud of that, but Really proud, and you should be Very, very proud of that. But again, you've still come out of a law career. You've obsessed about this, you've found this sense of purpose, but yet you don't consider yourself a creative. But then you have your own business called Lightbox, which is essentially a creative agency.

Speaker 2 53:10

That was bizarre because I've never made any money from Love Brum or Harry Moseley, it's all voluntary. So I was out to think about how to make money and it was a guy who asked me to do some business development work for him because everyone just thought I had a decent network, that I was a good salesperson and that was in the creative space. That was actually in a digital marketing company and I won't go into it. But you get all these promises that one day you could be involved with this business. I'd always wanted to own my own business and that never happened. So when that didn't, I thought you know what? I know this business through and through. Now I've been selling the products and services into big clients and I was fascinated by the mathematical brain that I have.

Speaker 2 53:49

The A plus B equals C. What's the word I do that I do like when things are facts. I still struggle sometimes when it's ideation stuff. I love it, I love the big ideas, but I sometimes get that comfort from knowing that A plus B equals C. So I love the paid advertising side to social media. So I set my own paid advertising agency. I call Blake Seven. My son's called Blake. My daughter was born on the 7th of July and it went crazy, went crazy Like for the first two years about 18 months, two years just went. I was like, wow, this is nice.

Speaker 1 54:20

Would you consider yourself a creative at that point?

Creating Love Brum Charity

Speaker 2 54:23

No, I still know, not at all. I didn't really know what creative was. I still probably thought creative was a photographer or an artist or you know not. A person that was suggesting marketing campaigns which I was, you know and creating return on people's investment and time and energy and assets, ideas and brand and storytelling, all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 54:42

And then, basically, long story cut short, brilliant guy called Rob Pollard. He just said look, I'm growing my business Lightbox, do you want part of it? So we merged. So I went from like Admi and two people working for me to a team of 20 odd overnight and we grew that to about 30 members of staff. Covid hit and it all started being very different as to how we pivoted and what we offered. But yeah, we did that together for about five years and then that was two years ago when I decided to cash in my shares and move on and he then merged with a much bigger agency. So he's now a managing director in one of their sort of departments up in Manchester and I suspect he's gone from a 30-man team to something like 200 or something.

Speaker 1 55:23

But yeah, again another different season of your life.

Speaker 2 55:27

Yeah, it was a great season. It was a stressful season because we'd just bought this huge, beautiful office and because the clients were on board at that point, I think, wanted that experience. And then covid struck and the whole world changed. No one wanted to come into offices both clients and employees so we had this. It was massive, it was absolutely beautiful. We had these brilliant events from there eventually when we could go back in. But the burden that came from a cash sort of point of view and it was just really challenging. But we were fine, we got through it and resilience was a real lesson and a learn. Like my now business partner, andy Dawson, would say, a good friend of mine, it's not a lesson, it's a learn, and I had loads of learns at Lightbox loads around how to network, how to communicate better, how to lead.

Speaker 2 56:14

I realized I wasn't a brilliant leader. I'd like to think I'm a good people's person, but I'm rubbish at giving bad news. I don't want to upset people. I'm obsessed with, not obsessed, but I care. I did. Then I care too much about what people think of me. Too much, do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think I was hamstrung by wanting to be liked all the time. So I was challenged, or rather I found it difficult to deliver bad news or to be not authoritarian, because you can lead through inspiration and stuff. I think maybe I was too dictatorial sometimes because I don't know whether I'm a natural leader in that sense.

Speaker 2 56:49

From a business perspective, I think I am from a community building side of things and charity, third sector, playing with purpose. I think people follow me. I'm not entirely sure from a business perspective. I don't know, maybe that's just beating myself up because we had a successful business right, all the trappings again of the fast cars and the big offices. But actually during that sort of journey I realized that ego piece, the big office, the big veneer sort of desk with your own office I didn't really want or need because the universe was telling me you didn't need it. I was being dictated to by a global pandemic. You didn't need to operate at that level. You didn't need that desk, you didn't need that car, you didn't need that office to operate at the level that you wanted to operate at. That gave you the that you wanted. So yeah, I'm very grateful for all of my lessons. And then that led me into by that time I'd set up Love Brum.

Speaker 1 58:16

Let's talk a little bit about Love Brum, because again, it's that idea of you, pj, almost putting other people before yourself. Yeah, championing our region, championing our city, championing the people of the region yeah, again, it's this kind of you spoke in other podcasts about how there's no selfless acts. Yeah, talk to me a little bit about Love Brum. What's Love Brum to you? What does it mean?

Speaker 2 58:41

Yeah, what's the why I think you're bang on there? I think someone told me recently that there can't be a selfless act and I was quite taken by that. I was like what do you mean? I do this for the love of it. But actually she was like no, I'll challenge you there. You feel good, right? I said, yeah, well, it's not selfless, you're getting something from it.

Speaker 2 58:58

It was all born out of the fact that when we were helping grow the Harry Mosley charity Harry Help Others a brilliant charity that does so many brilliant things for kids that are suffering with cancer and their families I think, without wrapping it up, I'm just telling you as crassly as I can, without offending it felt easy to raise money at that time because it was a very wet-nosed charity. It was a young kid that, bless him, had lost his life and people wanted to help. But we soon realised that there were so many small projects, community-led, grassroots people that are going out getting their fingernails dirty, that are having real making real, tangible change in our city, change that we all want to see. So I thought there's got to be a way of shining the spotlight on these people. So I didn't know what that looked like. Well, no one did really. And I went to New York and I saw this project called the Humans of New York Project. You'll know it being a photographer and for those that don't, it's beautiful photography Some of people that may look like they've made a few wrong decisions, and then you turn the photograph around and you'll realize that person is a trained ballerina, whatever, but it's about the people behind the photograph.

Speaker 2 1:00:08

So I thought there must be something here around, the people behind the projects in birmingham. How do we lift them up? How do we raise money for them? How do we shine a light on them? And how do we, at the same time, in doing all that, restore some civic pride into our city? Because we're at a time where and again, with the greatest respect, and I know why these cities are chosen to be city of culture, but birmingham wasn't in the press, no one was celebrating Brum and I just got peeved. Man, I thought, hang on. Birmingham has got so much and I'm a big fan of talking about the past I really am because that sets the now. But I don't think we talk enough about the now and the then, the future, ozzy Osbourne, jasper Carrot, lenny Henry Industrial Revolution yes, I, lenny Henry Industrial Revolution.

Speaker 1 1:00:47

Yes, I love that in the narrative and look how we've just showed up as a city for us.

Speaker 2 1:00:51

But don't forget what the leaders we have now, the inspirers now the people that have been inspired by that, and what's going to happen in the future. You know that story's there. I just don't think we tell it enough. But anyway, that was a political part of Loughum with a lowercase p, and me and Tim went to Old Contemptibles with a guy called Dave McLean lovely guy.

Speaker 1 1:01:11

Brilliant guy, by the way, the Old.

Speaker 2 1:01:13

Contemptibles is a pub. Yeah, old Contemptibles pub 15 pints later.

Speaker 2 1:01:17

I woke up in the morning, registered this URL Love Brum what the hell's that? And the rest is history. So, love Brum, is it? Started from nothing? Social first, digitally native, whatever we want to call it.

Speaker 2 1:01:30

Me and Tim and Dave just went, spent six months going to Birmingham asking everyone and anyone this is our idea, do we need it as a city? Will you back it? And the resounding answer was yes. And what we were pitching was this is going to be a community of people projects, whatever it might be that unearth, locate, find, hidden gem, projects across this city that are delivering tangible change, that we can touch, feel, enjoy, smell, that are making a change within our communities. And they're going to be across things like art, culture, education, community, people in crisis, elderly all those things that aren't that sexy, right, yeah, but have brilliant projects that are propping them up. Projects that don't even know how to use social media, projects that certainly don't take selfies of them giving out food to the homeless. They're doing it for the real reasons and often are failing or falling apart because they haven't got the resource, they haven't got any capacity within those projects to keep them going.

Speaker 2 1:02:33

So we connected them with people that wanted to give their time the most important, valuable commodity, most important asset that you can give away People. I was connecting them with accountants to sell their QuickBooks, photographers to help them with brands, social media experts to set up a website, wherever it might be, and then going to the corporates to give them cash micro-funding £500, £1,000, £2,000, not much money but to small charities like that, make the world of difference. £2,000, they bought 50 Makaton books that then would deliver training to 2,000 kids and their families who have Down syndrome every year. So we could, then we could look at the social impact. It was just huge, absolutely huge.

Speaker 2 1:03:16

Now again, I'm not knocking these huge charities that have to be huge to do the things that they're doing, but if I was going to put £2,000 into that charity, it would make very little difference. You put £2,000 over to this community project. Tangible change, oh my word. We're talking sustainable kitchens built on the top of houses. We're talking real-life advice around neonatal death. We're talking about oh, I just could go on forever and we've funded over 400 projects. Wow, it's just amazing.

Speaker 1 1:03:45

The impact you and that charity have made in that time is probably immeasurable, because you'll never know the impact that it will have on someone down the chain yeah, I mean, we still get I still get emails saying you funded this project.

Speaker 2 1:03:58

we've been going for 12 years, six years ago. I've just come across it and I'm now using it with x, y and z. Yeah, so the ripple effect is still happening. But 10 years in which was two years ago, I think, trying to work out my dates 2013,. Yeah, I called it a day, so I'm no longer around Lough Brum Like accidentally. We did some real succession planning. We've got a real good board of different types of energy and age. Me and Tim are getting on Like Tim's still around, he's chairman or whatever, but I decided to walk away, which was really challenging to me. Say more.

Speaker 1 1:04:31

Why did you decide to walk away?

Speaker 2 1:04:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:34

And why was it so challenging? So challenging because I absolutely love it and those selfless acts. It made you feel good. Yeah, it made me feel good.

Speaker 2 1:04:40

I was supporting Birmingham. We were connecting thousands of people. It wasn't just the projects that were benefiting. Here we were giving people volunteering opportunities. We were connecting businesses with our CSR strategies. It was like I could tick a box all day long about the things that we were doing, but it was twofold, really. One my mum told me not to do it anymore. Really.

Speaker 1 1:04:59

Yeah, she just said. Why did Marion say that?

Speaker 2 1:05:01

Oh, thanks for remembering her name, marion. Yeah, god bless her. I think she just saw that when you're saying yes, she's also saying no to something, aren't you? And I was saying yes to things. That was my mummy's family first, like staunchly loyal the Irish in mum. Well, she wasn't Irish herself, but she grew up around Irish family. My dad's family are pure Irish, I think my mum's Italian. Somewhere I used to say to the girls growing up I'm Irish, italian, but mum was beautiful, genuinely beautiful, dark-skinned, oh pretty pretty lady. But she just thought I was neglecting my kids. So I was working till 2 am to do x when, literally my son was saying can I play football, daddy? And I lost eight years to my son, like it took me a long time to regenerate that relationship and my mom and dad saw that a mile off. So she said you can't. You can only do so much for others for so long when you're not neglecting. She never said that because she always said I was a good dad.

Speaker 1 1:05:55

Is that one of the?

Speaker 2 1:05:56

regrets with the small R Massive, yeah, massive, oh, massive. That's probably the biggest regret my relationship with my son. He's brilliant now.

Speaker 1 1:06:03

At that point? Yeah, yeah, I did have a relationship with my son.

Speaker 2 1:06:05

I was coming home. I was coming home, I was just leaving him with my mom. Almost I wasn't neglecting him, I wasn't, I just wasn't. He would ask me can I go to the park? Yeah, I didn't give him the time in a minute and I never gave him, so that non-negotiable. Now, if I go home and I'm ill and he says, should we do a bike ride, I'm doing it, I'm doing it. Work can wait, people can wait, I'll just do it and it gives me so much. So mom had said she didn't tell me not to do it, but she said you should consider not doing it. And then she promised. I promised I'd never set up another charity. I've set up two since, but um, you know all going through.

Speaker 2 1:06:38

But we'll get on to that because that is also a testament to you and your mother, I think and the other one was very much the reason why I was challenged, because I've got the fear of missing out, because I love being around that community. I mean I'll always be co-founder of Love Brum, right, no one can ever take that away from me. But there was other things I wanted to explore. And Dave McLean actually, who is fundamentally a co-founder of Love Brum because he was there at the start and helped us commercially set it up a little bit. He never wants to be known as a co-founder, but he said he left after two years. And he said he left after two years. And he said you should know when it's time to move on. You know when your exit point is. I know I've done enough. And at 10 years I thought I looked around, I thought I've done enough. My energy was waning, the time I could commit to it had reduced because I wasn't making any money from it.

Speaker 1 1:07:23

You'd made sacrifices in your own first time.

Speaker 2 1:07:25

A hundred percent. I was rebuilding a relationship with my son. I had a daughter that I love and treasure and we have a great relationship. I'm a wife and my family. So it was great. It happened at a great time. Tim tried to convince me to stick around, but he put me. He said I'll have a hiatus. You disappear for 12 months and make a decision. I said I'm telling you the decision. Now, mate, I've got to go. And yeah it. People still around the projects and it still does things slightly differently to how we set things up for a number of reasons, but they're still doing great things.

Losing Marion and Finding Perspective

Speaker 2 1:07:53

But all down to marion for me moving on, yeah, 100 and that's that's. That started a new phase of my life. Unfortunately, hers came to an end during that period, because she told me that, rather gave me that advice probably for the last three or four years. I actioned that two years ago and unfortunately lost her 14 months ago, so it wasn't long after I walked away and started looking at other things that we lost mum. But that's also dictated how I live my life now as well.

Speaker 1 1:08:21

Yeah, obviously we've known each other a long time, but we have reconnected since you lost Marion, because we've spoken before how it's one of my biggest fears about losing my mum, and so I reached out and we just had a chat about things and sorts of stuff but a lot of people have made.

Speaker 1 1:08:36

I think just this is where we get into something that's very interesting, because that relationship with your mum and losing anyone is very difficult. But actually I've watched you from afar in that time. I know there's times when it doesn't work like that, but yeah, you've held it together. You've been open about your grief, you've been open about your mental health, you've been open about every aspect of this journey really and that's so liberating. And again down to the character of the man you are, pj ellis, every man's man it's like, and there's stuff that's come off the back of this. Like you say that, yeah, grief can really breed a strength, breed of resilience, breed a dare I set a reinvigorated sense of purpose for you?

Speaker 2 1:09:24

I'm living a new life, mate. I'm living a new life. This is pj version two.

Speaker 1 1:09:29

So let's go into that. Because you come out of of love, you've sold your company. Obviously, you didn't expect Marion to pass.

Speaker 2 1:09:38

No, we didn't know she was ill, mate it was the most bizarre, tragic sort of yeah, I'd not lost up until then either, so I didn't have any grandparents growing up.

Speaker 2 1:09:49

I had the same fear as you, the anticipatory grief sort of fear anxiety on the daily of losing mom and then we were told she was ill and hours later she died. Really, yeah, yeah, it was as quick as that and yeah, I'm not entirely sure I'll ever unpack that. But I'll tell you one thing I do know now is that this she's massively overpaid for it. I feel like I've overpaid for it because I was so looking forward to her growing old. I've never had an old I. You know I love old ladies like all right, bab, you know you're looking great sort of thing, you know, and I wanted to have that sort of.

Speaker 2 1:10:24

I think there's three stages with with parents, which I found really interesting. But someone said to me you idolize your parents. At the start, when you're a kid, I absolutely adored mom and dad. They couldn't do anything wrong. Superheroes, yeah, superheroes. Then you demonize them because they're not letting you go out or drink or wherever it might be. And then you humanize them and that stage I was so excited for. Dad, retired quite early, did really well and luckily for him and mom, he has at least had the last 10 years retired both of them, so they were able to live that life and spend time. Mum was 66. If she was still working. She would have died whilst working. So luckily she had that 10 years of not having to work and volunteering here and there, but saw her grandkids spend time with grandkids. But also because she was so young, I always expected 86 in her sleep. That's how she'd go, and those 20 years would mean that she'd see my son become a dad himself, or see my nephews grow up and my niece grow up. My daughter, whatever.

Speaker 1 1:11:22

Get married.

Speaker 2 1:11:23

Yeah, all that, all that she lived, for that was her heaven on earth. Yeah, family, oh my word, yeah oh my I that's what I do now.

Speaker 1 1:11:36

He's sitting it, I hear yeah it's all good and that's.

Speaker 2 1:11:41

And that's one thing I really wanted to humanise. I wanted to talk to her and I missed that. I don't know what her favourite song was. I'll probably have a good guess.

Speaker 1 1:11:51

Those sort of like what would you guess it?

Speaker 2 1:11:52

is. Oh, there's too many. She used to listen to Patti Bale is it Pty bell or patsy patsy klein and all that, and oh, I get them confused. But oh, she loved ub40 and she loved a bit of reggae and stuff like that. So mum and dad loved the faces, roger stewart and stuff. But yeah, I was just so looking forward to humanizing I really was so that loss is is so heavy and actually I'm gutted for her because she was the most beautiful person. She gave everything to others she was. She would be the first one that would give you her last pound. In fact, she was the one that would probably sneak a pound into that kid's pocket that didn't have as much money, or put a new pair of trainers at the in the changing room when she shouldn't.

Speaker 1 1:12:28

And that was testament of funeral right 700 plus people and can you just talk about the diverse people at the funeral?

Speaker 2 1:12:34

mom and dad were a football. Dad ran the local football team, growing up in a place called King's Earth, which is hard knock, brilliant people. The best community would give you their shirt off their back and mum was like the mole she was the one that would control these young lads.

Speaker 2 1:12:49

Yeah, just for your family, for all of these other lads, well, a lot played in our team came from broken families so when mum passed I lived. This blur of dad and my sister dealt with the sad men. We call it all that sort of like preparing the funeral and stuff.

Speaker 2 1:13:06

And it was just a blur for me, but when I turned up and this church was completely full and the standing room there was five, six hundred people that the church can take seated and it was people standing up and in different rooms. It was crazy. It was like, did you?

Speaker 1 1:13:19

I mean, obviously she's your mum, so you felt her legacy. But until that moment had you really seen the legacy or did you really understand the legacy?

Speaker 2 1:13:27

I knew she was popular and I knew she was that person that could just know when someone was struggling to start talking to them. But what I didn't know until I was actually told the effect that she'd had and I just hope that she knew what she'd done. I had these lads that you would, if you put them into a category. They'd be like I'm not gangsters like all there and they were crying their eyes out to me on the day telling me what she'd done for them, whether it comes to faith or community or confidence. And I remember one of the lads I knew he was murdered and I remember the biggest like gangster lad, the hard knock, like he was a lovely guy. He phoned mom. I'd go around mom's house and be people there and I'd be like I didn't know we were meeting.

Speaker 2 1:14:06

I've seen it's a mess because mom would feed them and she was just a brilliant lovely oh man, yeah, and I hope she knew the impact that she had and I think that's where I get it from. She was always that. I was just about to say you know, give first, take after open that door. If they don't let you through, at least you'd let them through. She was very without knowing she's my Ted Lasso. You know what a guy? Yeah, believe, she was just amazing and, yeah, I miss and I'm just gutted for her because she had a real tough upbringing, really tough upbringing to the point where I struggled humanising her because she got so sad talking about her upbringing.

Speaker 2 1:14:43

Her mum died on her seventh birthday and yeah, it was just really bad. She had a real horrible stepmother and she was a real budding tennis player a really good tennis player, apparently and her stepmum took her out of school at 13, 14, going to get a job. So my dad's mom saved her. Really, they moved in very quickly and she became so close to dad's mom so she used to call dad's mom even though they lost her just before I was born a mom and actually she's yards from where she's in the cemetery, so it's just bizarre. But yeah, we lost mom 13 months ago and I'm now living with this gift. You know, I have this eternal gift that she gave me, that she overpaid for, of perspective. So I'm able to. I know how to play with purpose and now I can play with perspective, which is really it's a superpower man because, yeah, no, as I said, version two I now know well, I think I'm better understand what I would like to do, who I want to do it with, when, why I'm 46. It took me all that time to get there, but that allows me to be more comfortable knowing that when I do talk about whatever I want to talk about, hopefully it resonates with people because they're going through their own challenges as well.

Speaker 2 1:15:54

And I know I look at my journey as not being that linear when it comes to career, but actually it's now not that linear when it comes to family as well. And I know I look at my journey as not being that linear when it comes to career, but actually it's now not that linear when it becomes the family as well. Because I used to think of the future a lot. I used to worry about dying. I used to worry about not having mum in my life. Now one of those has already happened. I'm less scared about dying because I've actually seen what that looks like. I don't want to die. I've asked myself very difficult conversations because I thought that when mom died I'd be. I genuinely thought I'd go down the bottom of the garden that would be done like because she was my, you know, my, one of my favorites. But actually I've coped and that's testament to the framework that I have and others don't family around you.

Speaker 1 1:16:35

But also does that lead us nicely on to yes, you've got amazing framework around your family, kelly, the kids, friends, great circle but also again, that mask, because just around the time that marion passed away, yeah, you were offered a job by the bbc, weren't you? Yeah, you come into radio and be a part of that.

Speaker 1 1:16:57

Can you say a little bit more about that and, potentially, how realistically you're going through a lot of grief and you're having to put on a mask and go and sit and go out into the public Because you're a champion of Birmingham. They're sending you out into the Midlands and giving you a microphone and going all right, bab talk to people and just find out about people.

Speaker 2 1:17:17

Yeah, I mean it was a crutch that. So the bbc thing was bizarre. I'd fell into non-exec work after I'd sold in inverted commas light box. I'm not off to a caribbean island anytime soon, but I started leaning into non-exec work and stuff like that which was great, like from a money perspective. I went back to the old sort of focus of cash taking on the big, shiny projects, Knowing I wouldn't enjoy it but knowing it was good money. And actually, regardless of whether mum had passed away or not, I don't think I would have been doing that anymore. But when mum passed I definitely knew I didn't want to do that. So I cancelled all my non-exec contracts because it wasn't giving me any joy really.

Speaker 1 1:17:53

Again, a brave thing to do, though.

Speaker 2 1:17:54

Yeah, it was, but equally like you know it was. You know, yeah, I had other priorities, I suppose. But literally about a month before mum passed, six weeks before mum passed, the BBC had been in touch. A good friend of mine had put me in touch with one of the exec directors. I thought nothing of it, but we eventually had a chat, still thought nothing of it, and then the guy I don't know what it is, but I need to get you involved with this new breakfast show at BBC. I was like, oh sweet, so yeah, they put me on this reporter role at the breakfast. Me little did I know that in six weeks time mum would pass away. She wasn't even ill. Do you know what I mean? She was the first person I called after I told my wife and I'm so glad that she said I remember you're going to be good at this, bab, you'll be happy here. And at least she thought that.

Speaker 1 1:18:37

And knew that she knows you better than anybody, apart from maybe Kelly.

Speaker 2 1:18:41

Even because she saw me going doing the things I loved. I was getting up just having a chat with brilliant people at bus stops, or two words, every man's man. All right, bab started some beautiful conversations, yeah, and that was allowing me to be Br proud person from the West Midlands that would go and talk to people and even though sometimes people would be a bit reluctant to have that conversation at half six in the morning, it led into beautiful conversations that neither me nor them knew they needed to have. And there's a creativity in that Storytelling and actually, yeah, storytelling man, that's the best marketing. Just storytell with purpose, the easiest way to nail any marketing campaign. And that, all Right can pain, was fantastic. And it was fantastic in the fact that when I was the bbc for all the, the shit that they get locally, they were fantastic to me. They just said look, do what you need to do.

Speaker 2 1:19:31

So I had the time off. I think I had. I think I went back to work and then I thought I can't do this and we got a funeral slot, oh god, quite soon. So someone told me have a week off before the funeral and certainly after, because it hits differently. So I had that two weeks off and then went back and thought, oh god, this is going to be heavy. And I looked at some of the photographs and I looked exhausted and I was. I weren't sleeping. I still don't sleep very well now because I have sleep terror. I don't want to fall asleep because it feels like I'm dying. It's weird and I think, anyway, that's another conversation for another day.

Speaker 1 1:20:02

Again a creative brain. Unfortunately.

Speaker 2 1:20:04

Yeah, man, it's stimulated and unfortunately, our own negative bias.

Speaker 1 1:20:08

The creative brain comes with the byproducts of you go. Oh, some people go to the negative, but when you're an overthinker with a creative brain, you then you go to the real negative.

Speaker 2 1:20:15

Oh yeah, man, you go deep and beyond.

Speaker 2 1:20:17

But yeah, it also it saved me with knowing because all that sort of that role that I thought would play with grief and that would have been depressed and looking for some sort of addiction, that wouldn't have been good didn't happen. Because it couldn't happen, I had to get out of bed. We had a real good work ethic kicked into us from kids, not physically, but we were working early because mum and dad wanted us to work and, uh, you know, find our way and the work ethic kicked in. I've always worked hard when I put my heart to something and I got out of bed at quarter to five and out I was at warsaw market and digbeth market and wherever it might be. Here then everywhere briley hill market, belston market, city center talking to charities, church projects, communities, schools, businesses, all walks of life but essentially going back to that, under the grief you're under.

Speaker 1 1:21:03

Yeah, definitely wearing a mask to do yeah, I had to.

Speaker 2 1:21:06

yeah, but I represented mom. That's the way I got through it. I read this thing about representing those that you lose and mom would have been that person that would open those conversations, that would have got through it. She was, she did it since she was seven years old. She was resilient, she was creative in how she articulated her grief, where she put it, where she left it, and I thought, actually, if mom could do that, I wasn't grateful at that point. I'm getting there. She had a mom for seven years. I had a mom for 46. That's a luxury compared to what she had. So how dare I not do what she did? And I went out and had some lovely conversation, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2 1:21:42

The second those finished I'd be crying my eyes out in the car for 20 minutes. But that was the way I dealt with it, because then I didn't take it home. All the counselling I had through the BBC, all the counselling after and I still do compartmentalised try and find the time to think about your mum, play those songs, go and visit her, spend that time, schedule that grief, and I was without knowing. So I'm very grateful for the BBC for allowing me to do that and it's led on to me now presenting shows, and I had my own during the summer, all of which. Mum never saw me have a show. I showed her the photograph. It's so bizarre. My BBC photograph as a presenter came through with all the backdrop. Pj came through the day. Mom passed away, really so when she was intubated I showed her it so hopefully she saw it one way or another, but she never listened to one of my shows, but I dedicated my first one to her.

Speaker 2 1:22:28

She listened to you for 40-something years oh yeah, she knew I was a storyteller one way or another. She used to say I was a bullshitter.

Speaker 1 1:22:35

Basically I said mum, it's storytelling, but you got that from somewhere and, like you're saying I think I'm not trying to get you emotional, but I think you're without knowing Marion, I think you're a beautiful legacy to her.

Speaker 2 1:22:48

Yeah, you know what. Thank you, mate. Mum, I'm trying to think what legacy is now and I, through the wisdom of Jimmy Carr he was talking to my mate, alison Hammond, on a boat about he lost his mum when he was young and she was young and he started to get angry and all the usual stages I'm still angry, all that. Yeah, I'll be angry for the day I die in the fact that she didn't live a long life. But he said legacy, he now knows what the afterlife looked like and I thought, said it's now my mum's afterlife is me, how I live, what she left in me, what the part of her that's in me. And I thought, wow, okay, so it's my responsibility now to do what mum used to do to look out for blokes that are struggling to, to be there, to resonate, to inspire to, to listen.

Speaker 2 1:23:34

My mum was and my dad got upset the other day. It was so bizarre. We had a plaster and a tile around. My dad came in and the tile came in and it looked like they'd just had it out. It was really weird and I thought what's going on?

Speaker 2 1:23:47

Anyway, the tile later on told me and my dad told me the story. My dad had pulled up on the drive and he'd seen this tile, just like prepping some grouts or whatever I don't know what they do and he just felt compelled to talk to him, to ask him questions that I suppose convention would say she shouldn't be asking a person you've just met and it led into the most beautiful conversation that they both needed around grief, mental health, community, family. And the Tyler said to me on the night that he's been struggling. And my dad? He said he just came to me at a time when I needed him most. And that's mom's power. Mom knew exactly when people needed. She just had this superhero power in her that she'd just say things and then listen. I never thanked her for that. She had this and I don't think she knew she had it where.

Speaker 2 1:24:35

I don't know how to superpower and that was born out of the tragedy and the struggle she had as a kid, I think she felt like no one would. She didn't want people to go through what she did, so she provided that comfort, that community, that sounding board in a creative way. Mum was a very creative, very clever, very funny, very oh I laugh, I miss it every day. And she didn't know because she always thought she wasn't, because she didn't have the gcse. So it goes back full circle.

Speaker 1 1:25:05

She'd always do but also I don't think you. I think maybe you're like you said earlier, you're learning to give yourself more credit, but I don't think you recognize some of those major character traits in yourself too, because, as I say, other people will meet you and they'll go holy shit. He's the warmest, most confident guy. He made me feel amazing and we've spoken about that woo with you and it's that these people are hitting the nails on the head PJ Ellis, the every man's man, your mum. It's those elements where I think it's not about people will never remember what you say, but they'll remember how you make them feel, and you, and it sounds like your mum, have got those energies that have affected people more than you can ever possibly realise.

Speaker 2 1:25:48

Yeah, that's very kind of you. All I will say is that I definitely know that's what mum did, because I was told that. I've seen people tell me the difference mum made and it was that how can I put it? And this is, I can see me. And these are the humanising conversations I wanted with mum, because actually sometimes if we crossed the path we would butt heads sorry, yeah, and because we're very similar. I don't think we ever realised how similar we were.

Speaker 2 1:26:13

She would always want to fill an empty silence. So I'd be like that's bizarre, but I'll do exactly the same. We'd go to a party and all of a sudden some random would be sitting on our table because he was on his own in the corner. He's not what I'd do, you know. I'd go to that first person networking event that doesn't. He's not saying anything or he's on his own, because I'm thinking that could be my son or me or whatever. And then after that my mom would be the most annoying Because I'd come off the conversations I used to say to my wife and I missed them wholeheartedly.

Speaker 2 1:26:41

I've met a lovely person in you today. I had a lovely conversation. The first thing my body will want to do when I get in that car is to phone my mum, and I miss that. But what she used to do when she used to phone me used to annoy me. She'd never talk about me. I now know she'd talk about me to everyone else other than me, but when it was me, it was about other people. Do you remember that, matt, that we met in that podcast? I met his mom the other day for a coffee.

Speaker 2 1:27:06

You what he's mad and his mom's dad's right, he's a little next door, yeah he's got a church project, so I've dropped him some clothes and it was just she's. Just, she's, this community person, the things you used to do through the pools like you. Just look that knocking on people's doors. Remember the good old?

Speaker 1 1:27:18

days.

Speaker 2 1:27:19

You'd clash her nose. She wasn't. She was interested in other people and how she could help them. She was the one that at Christmas she would go to all the food banks, all the church projects, just drop everything off and then do the bottle top raffle for the local school. That was her thing and I see that in me, I do. I do see that in me because there's no denying that's what I obviously loved so much in my mum that I now want to carry on because I see the good that he's created from stuff like that. So I now know that mum isn't with me physically, but I do believe that she's with me spiritually and I'm just going to represent her as much as I can.

Speaker 1 1:27:57

And you are, and I think you're an amazing legacy. I don't want to blow smoke up your ass in any way, because I think what you do and what you've done for people over well, listen to what we've done. There's charity, there's creativity. It's always about other people, the radio stuff. It's always about championing other people. Leaning into your story. Where do you feel most alive? Yeah, and having the courage to pursue that.

Speaker 2 1:28:19

I think that's a creative spark in me. I think creativity comes from doing something that you're really passionate about, and that was football initially. I suppose there's a creative sort of artistic place that lives within football, but the creativity in me is enabling, so it allows me to push through those barriers I have from an anxious person and to know that actually, if I do this, I don't really care what people think about me, because I know deep down that I'm not making tons of cash from it. If anything, I've never made money from charity and I'm doing good. So it enables me to be confident in the things that I'm doing. And there's something quite artistic around that. And from a creativity point of view, you do have to think about how you, you know, grow communities and monetize those communities, for if it is a grant maker like Love Brum, we have to find money to give away.

Speaker 1 1:29:09

Problem solving.

Speaker 2 1:29:10

Yeah, problem. Yeah, you know what which?

Speaker 1 1:29:11

is creativity with a capital C.

Speaker 2 1:29:13

I think, yeah, interesting I used to think problem solving was more around the academia part of my life the lawyer, the mathematician? Not at all.

Speaker 1 1:29:20

It's creativity, because you've got to be able to think outside the box because, yeah, sometimes you love the fact that a plus b equals c, yeah, but sometimes a plus b equals f and you're like, oh shit, how do I square that? So?

Speaker 2 1:29:32

yeah, but below c sort of yeah. But yeah, it's a lad called rub, good guy, he'd been in marketing all his life and so he started working with us at Lightbox, came in as like a non-exec sort of thing and he said to me he said, you're proper, creative, you are. And I was like you. What? Not at all, mate, because I was there still as I was playing that part of like operations, making sure the business was ran properly thing, because I thought, just assumed that the lawyer in me would be better as control and management and exec and logistics and growth and new clients onboarding. Not at all. I was the storyteller, I was the big picture you were the.

Speaker 1 1:30:09

Essentially you're a front man of the band yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:30:11

So rob was brilliant, creative, like on paper. He was an artist, he was brilliant. So my ideas, mixed with him being able to put those ideas on paper, created some brilliant things. We created this thing called unbox and it was a monthly sort of meet where we brought people together. We brought brilliant storytellers in, from paul richardson at gymshark to allison hammond, to the head of product at dr martin's, adam meek, and to a lady that's a professional eater, and it was just brilliant and it was just like creativity wise. It ticked all the boxes because it engaged, it educated, it connected, it inspired and actually, from a commercial point of view, it's brilliant for brand light bulbs.

Speaker 1 1:30:47

It was brilliant for recruitment, it was brilliant for onboarding and stuff but all those things you've just mentioned in terms of the unboxing, it's only what we're doing with the podcast yeah, exactly different stories from different people perhaps. Oh, pj's not an artist, but fucking hell, he's a creative yeah if you listen to the story, you'll find out why inspire others to do the things that inspire them, and that's where I found that. Synergy with different missions potentially, but yeah, I do like setting up brands as well so exactly the same as me.

Speaker 2 1:31:15

It's like, well, yeah, I can see, it's fantastic, you know, I get I get my eye gets drawn to coloring in sort of thing and I find that quite therapeutic. But yeah, I'm always creating logos for this and that I've just created an all right bab logo, which I'm really I can't wait to launch and okay then well, let's talk about, I feel like, is that a nice, semi-seamless segue into the two?

Speaker 1 1:31:35

things that I believe you're working on. Next, the one that I know and I definitely wanted to talk about is mommy's boy charity. Yeah, but also you're gonna. You've got your own podcast, all right, bab it's.

Speaker 2 1:31:46

Yeah, man pipeline still, yeah, he's made from a creativity point of view. Mommy's boy was quite a natural thing for me to follow, and I've been. I've struggled a little bit with it, and the reason why is twofold really. I'll tell you one of these. I was looking for help. I was really struggling. I had all that in your grief.

Speaker 2 1:32:03

Yeah, I was struggling like and, bizarrely, my best mates lost their mums within the space of four months of each other. We lost Siobhan four weeks after marrying and then we lost Marie at Christmas. So it was a space of five months. These lads that were on playground 30 years ago, those 15-year-old lads, didn't know that in 30 years' time they'd all lose their mums in the space of six months. So we went for a walk and I just got it.

Speaker 2 1:32:27

I thought hang on a second, because all the way up to that I'd been looking at platforms for mental health how can I connect? And there were some brilliant ones out there Andy's man Club, the walking and talking groups, all that brilliant organisation but I couldn't see a specific one for blokes who had lost their mums and actually the feedback when I spoke about losing mum was very much that. Oh, mate, I really appreciate you talking openly about this. I lost my mum 20 years ago, never been able to talk about it. Loads of wives. My husband lost his mum in COVID. Still has not been the same guy. People are coming in after losing their mom but different people blokes.

Speaker 1 1:33:03

And then there's that the stats around suicide rates, male loneliness yeah, we're supposed to just suck it up, and even when we lose the only person that we ever come into the world, we're attached to this person. Yeah, yeah, but as men, we're still supposed to suck it up and go.

Speaker 2 1:33:16

Nah, yeah I think there is that sort of like convention like that. There's a data to suggest that those blokes that you would think are more of the geezers that would go to war for us in construction, struggle with it even more because they are.

Speaker 1 1:33:27

These were a provider that they the master, they have to put on.

BBC Radio and New Beginnings

Speaker 2 1:33:31

They're the lads. So I looked at that and all this feedback and then I thought about my journey around my mom and what I missed most was all those things that I was once ridiculed. For god, you talk to your mom every day. Yeah, I do. You tell your mom you love her every day. Yeah, I'm so glad I did your mommy's boy like derogatory sort of thing and I thought you know what I'm fucking excuse my french proud to be a mommy's boy yeah, and so I thought there's no better way of calling it Mommy's Boy, and it's going to be a brave, safe community for blokes who have lost their moms.

Speaker 2 1:34:01

Right Doesn't mean I'm not going to open it up to females or it's going to be a mental health base and it might signpost people into better platforms that will deal with addiction and obesity. Because I put two and a half stone on Really, yeah, comfort eating, mate. I now know what that is. I've lost it again, thank the Lord, but still need to lose a stone. But I was sitting there at three miles bars crying, just because it gave me this distraction, started betting a little bit more. I can see what happens off the back of grief.

Speaker 2 1:34:27

Bless mum, she passed away. It was a 12 month. It was probably a bit of a. With hindsight, I probably shouldn't have done it because I hadn't told the family. Bit shocked by it. I told them I was doing something, but the first time they saw what it really was on the year, we didn't fall out, by the way, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I thought, no, actually it's really poignant for me to mark this year I don't know how to celebrate a year of mom's passing with something good. Yeah, and the inbound mate has been ridiculous to the point where the old procrastinator in pj has resurfaced, because I now not really know what my next step is. I do In the sense that there's too much choice.

Speaker 2 1:35:02

Too much choice.

Speaker 1 1:35:02

You've presented the paradox of choice. Too much choice, Corporate saying can we do?

Speaker 2 1:35:06

this, can we support this, can we set this up, can we start this, can we do this? Why?

Speaker 1 1:35:09

don't we do this? But essentially, at the heart of Mommy's Boy, charity is Once again, no selfish act. You're helping with your own grief by showing up for other men.

Speaker 2 1:35:20

Yeah, it's as much for me as it is for them. Yeah, of course, and it will be initially what I think you should start with spitting sawdust club, social club somewhere and just come no drinking a brilliant charity called Two Pints Deep. I know where you can go after two pints and I don't want to encourage those conversations. I want them to be more around. Are you feeling a bit like we did with love, bro? Yeah, what do you think would help?

Speaker 1 1:35:45

and actually I don't care if one person turns up, it doesn't matter as long as I help that one person and it could look different for every person, couldn't it 100?

Speaker 2 1:35:51

someone might come the first time and not say a word three times later they're crying their eyes out I think what would have helped me was and this is probably what will be pushed into Mommy's Boy it'll be an education charity whereby there'll be experts around grief, addiction, anticipatory loss. What are those things we can do when we have those panic attacks? All those things about comforting, control. When you know you're going to have a wobble, how can you prepare for it? All the things I'm getting through counselling, what can? When you know you're going to have a wobble, how can you prepare for it? All the things I'm getting through counselling. What can we do just to help each other? How can we sit in the mud together? The data suggests that it's not face-to-face anymore, it's shoulder-to-shoulder. But if you are talking to someone that resonates or has gone through that challenge, you're more open to talk about how you're feeling.

Speaker 2 1:36:32

That was when I went. We're all dealing with it differently. I'm crying more than others, but we all cry. I'm an emotional peach at the best of times. Yeah, me too. Yeah, so we're going to sit in the mud together with these lads and then, if that leads into signposting people to different charities, brilliant. If it leads into doing five-a-side football every month or a walk every month, whatever it might be one conversation that stops someone doing something stupid yeah, and that's it.

Speaker 2 1:36:53

And I even if it gets that conversation to ask yourself that question, which I did I was so lucky. We have to move, we have to make a change, we have to put someone in. I've lost people to suicide friends, so, yeah, so that's. That is my big passion play at the moment, and I'm getting off the procrastination fence and getting things moving. I've had a huge charity approach me to maybe collaborate on something, so it's really exciting already, so I just got to get it going and see what happens.

Speaker 1 1:37:20

And, as I say to you, mate, we've had this discussion before that anything I can do with my creativity, whether it's photography, video, I appreciate that, whatever I'm in, because, thanks, I really respect what it is you're doing and I do think, yeah, all of this is just an incredible legacy to marion and your mum thanks, mate, and I don't want to be get you upset, but you might need it one day.

Speaker 2 1:37:42

We're all going to lose somebody.

Speaker 1 1:37:43

We're all going to need it yeah, and as we've spoken in great detail, it is that anticipatory thing. It's very strange feeling oh, it's horrible.

Speaker 2 1:37:51

I mean, I wish you know it's easier. Said now, oh, you shouldn't do it. There's got to be more to it than that, because I can't even articulate the pain I'm going through and I'm going through it even though I used to think about what it was like. I couldn't even articulate what it feels like now, crying in the shower. Just try and find, and you know what there is a way of.

Speaker 2 1:38:11

One of the counseling sessions was when you feel like you're gonna have that wobble, because I'll know that you go into a place that you used to go to together and someone will just hit you. I was slicing a cucumber the other day and I found myself in a pool of tears because mom showed me how to make a salad. But if I'm going to a restaurant that I know we used to go to, you can almost prepare to have that wobble and you it's almost. It's like filling that space. How I'm going to fill that space. So if, instead of going to the shower and crying and putting mariah carey track on, go and exercise. Yeah, go for a walk, take your dog out, tell your missus that you love her, tell your son that you're proud of him, whatever it might be practice gratitude.

Speaker 1 1:38:45

I'm with you on that. Whenever we have a psychological issue, yeah, do something physical.

Speaker 2 1:38:51

Yeah, do something physical I found that amazingly helpful getting out of bed and walking around the markets and smelling those smells triggering as hell, because mom used to take me to charleswood market, got me a piece there and it's triggering as hell, just lent into it because it was movement, it was smells, it was outdoors but also you, being you and marion's legacy, you're putting your energy into other people all right, bab, tell me your story let's focus on you.

Speaker 1 1:39:16

It's not about me and my grief right now. This hour and a half of this breakfast is about you telling your story and getting that out there.

Speaker 2 1:39:23

It's interesting because one of the best advices I had at BBC was that it's not your story and I was like, what do you mean? It's my show, but no, no, no, no, no. When you're interviewing or communicating or talking, let in, let them tell their story. You're just facilitating it and it's beautiful that way because everyone gets it. They tell their story, they unload you, you're educated, you're inspired, it resonates, you feel better. So, yeah, for me to be able to go out and go all right, bab, and make people just smile. It was lovely and actually that's led me into thinking. I've got this wit and grit podcast at the moment, which was born out of me and my mate andy.

Speaker 2 1:39:58

Brilliant guy. He's got a massive change management company, really successful guy if you look at it success, money and grow businesses. But he's such a lovely guy. He's the guy that starts his linkedin bios with dad first. He knows the priorities, he's a good guy and, uh, we're, we're worried about the future of the workforce for our kids. Super intelligent, super bright, super creative, super talented, socially inept, socially awkward. Yeah, Sorry, and it's not their fault. No, it's not their fault. You know, blake is my son. He looks, thank the Lord, he takes after his mum because he's a beautiful looking kid. He wants to be an actor. He's telling me he wants to be an actor Brilliant, super. He's telling me he wants to be an actor Brilliant, super, creative.

Speaker 2 1:40:37

I've seen some monologues that the acting school have sent me, honestly moving me to tears. He's good at what he does, he's on the spotlight and all that sort of stuff. So he's having people come to him, big brands, asking him to get involved. All that's amazing. So he's got the opportunity to do the things he wants to. Do't do it. So what does that look like in the future of the workforce?

Speaker 2 1:40:59

I'll use the legal analogy Paralegals, new starters, start Digitally native, brilliantly sound when it comes to AI, creativity, whatever it might be, struggle picking a phone up and you've got the partner the other end of the spectrum, who's still on the golf course negotiating face-to-face. That doesn't like these new millennials, gen Z, whatever we are now, gen Alpha and the others can't resonate with him, but actually, if they bring those two together, what a powerful workforce that would be. And actually what I really love about that Andy said to me. He said you know what? I think we can really commercialize this business. I've got some ideas, he said but let's just set up a podcast. And usually I would have ran to the hills no way, I'm not interested. Three days later we had a brand, we had a name, we had a url and we were live and it was just amazing and those conversations that have started off the back of that like what you're doing in the one percent club now 22, 23 episodes, whatever.

Speaker 2 1:41:49

It's amazing because it allows me to do all those things that I love. So, off the back of that, I thought I have to do an all Right Bab one, and the reason is I think this could be Love Brum version two. Brand Birmingham right, it still needs some sort of collaboration. There's loads of things that we're doing brilliantly, but they're not connected. There's not a platform, and I don't think Birmingham has the brand that it's needed. So, yeah, all Right, bab two words that start beautiful conversations. I'm just getting on with it. I'm going to have a 20-minute buzzer and it'll be unscripted, a bit like this, and it'll be like all right, bab. And I'll start with just one question, which will change every guest.

Speaker 1 1:42:30

So it could be… You'll need your dad to help you with that, with some of his philosophical profoundness. Yeah, it might just be are you sleeping, though?

Speaker 2 1:42:42

Yeah, be. Are you sleeping though? Yeah, and you might just watch out for breakfast this morning, matt, and I think there'll be something that will resonate with diet.

Speaker 1 1:42:46

Sleeping, yeah, normal, that lived experience that people get so much weight or get so much from when it's peer-to-peer and you think going back to blake, yeah, do you think him seeing you do all this stuff that you do? Do your children know how much you suffer from social anxiety?

Speaker 2 1:42:59

I don't think they would know, and I don't because they see, dad, yeah love.

Speaker 1 1:43:03

He's obviously always fun, very comfortable around his children yeah but they also see the public persona where the masks are on and all these things yeah, they do.

Speaker 2 1:43:10

They've seen it. They've seen the emotional dad. I've never, ever not got upset in front of them. I don't't bring my troubles to them, but I've always been comfortable crying in front of them because I think they need to know that me and Kelly they can say and do anything they want. They can always come home and tell me the worst news because it won't be as bad as they think and that will involve crying and emotional storytelling and telling the truth and all that. So I've always been very clear on that. I'm not hiding my emotions, but yeah, they see like a performer, don't they?

Speaker 2 1:43:41

they see someone that's got a decent do you think that's why blow wants to be an actor. I don't know, mate. To be fair, maybe I should have been an actor, because it gives you that safety net, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 1:43:50

you're able to turn up and play dracula, when you play a part, it's like me when I flip into work mode or when I flip into podcast mode. Essentially I'm playing a part. Yeah, yeah, 100%, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:44:00

And it becomes. I think you get that blanket in that. Oh, they didn't think I was a good Dracula. They're not saying you're a bad person, you're not a good PJ.

Speaker 1 1:44:11

They're saying oh, you're not a good Dracula, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:44:14

I don't know where Dracula's't you in that you method acting you can. Blake is a very talented actor, he looks the part, and there's probably hundreds and hundreds of other people like Blake, and I just wish they encouraged that more within schools. We are still judging people on how they can recall stuff from their brain and how mathematically bright they are.

Speaker 1 1:44:33

Yeah, and let's face it, the world does not need another average accountant or an average I can build a website on AI now.

Speaker 2 1:44:40

Yeah, you've got that leveling out thing where I can become the most statistical genius in the heartbeat, and I've got A-stars in maths and A-level maths and all that, and what good does that serve me?

Speaker 1 1:44:50

I don't even remember the Python theory or cars and scene and all that, and look at the journey that you've been on from law to big brother to back to law to digital creative marketing, signing out of that charity now into radio and what I do believe. I think you are finding much more of your purpose now yeah, I am mate.

Speaker 2 1:45:12

Yeah, I'm just happy. I think I am happier in my portfolio life. I would like a little bit more balance in what that looks like, because I've always been a bit spread too thin, but I don't think that's a bad thing as long as I don't. I've got some non-negotiables now in my life when it comes to my time with my family and my kids and all that. How long have you had those? Has that been a result of? It's definitely been strengthened since mum, but I've had them for a couple of years now. I've had to because I get asked. I'm quite lucky. I get asked to do a lot of things and I've got to make sure that I just always remember that. You know that yes is a note to something else, but the power of no is also a superpower super mate, I've been rereading what is it?

Speaker 2 1:45:51

the power of not giving a beep.

Speaker 1 1:45:53

Oh, mark manson, subtle art. Yeah, is he a bloke? I thought it was a lady, sarah or something, but there's a couple, isn't there?

Speaker 2 1:46:00

Oh, the life-changing magic of not giving a fuck. By Sarah Knight.

Speaker 1 1:46:03

And it actually is.

Speaker 2 1:46:05

Her book has been influenced by a book about tidying your life, so decluttering in the house. It was a Japanese lady or a Chinese lady that says remove everything from your house, your wardrobe, your cupboards, that don't bring you joy, because even that little activity in the morning of sifting through your t-shirts, the three or four or the 10 that you know you're never going to wear.

Speaker 1 1:46:27

It's that Steve Jobs thing. Wear the same thing every day. Nick Knight, very famous, fast talk wore the same thing to every shoot.

Speaker 2 1:46:32

Stephen Barlett does it.

Speaker 1 1:46:39

Stephen Barlett black cap. In some respects, I'm the same. I wear a creative Noa Land t-shirt, a pair of trainers and a pair of jeans most of my days, unless I'm going to meetings well, I struggled with that when I came out of law, because I didn't have a uniform anymore. I didn't have my I don't have enough brands. You must have enough merchandise for more of your brands it's often black jeans trainers black.

Speaker 1 1:46:53

For me, though, when you're working in studios, you need to be in black, just in case there's reflective surfaces. I think it's a media thing as well.

Speaker 2 1:46:59

I think you've got your cool watch on and your trainers, I think maybe. But yeah, mate, I am now playing with purpose. I'm trying not to give a shit?

Speaker 1 1:47:06

Do you still think you're wearing the same masks or do you think you're much more comfortable being PJ? Every man's man, I care less now it less now.

Speaker 2 1:47:14

It doesn't mean I don't care. I care less about what people think about me doesn't mean I don't care.

Speaker 1 1:47:19

But that's been a contributing factor to your success the fact that you do care so much about 100.

Speaker 1 1:47:23

Yeah, it's not always a bad thing, and you and hannah spoke about this in your previous podcast that giving a shit about what other people think is empathetic. Yeah, it's a driver. It's a driver and you want people to come away feeling the best from you inspired, lifted. No one wants to be the going back to dracula, the energy vampire. Yeah, yeah, you want to be the people that come away going. Holy fuck. I felt so good sitting down talking to pj for a couple of hours. I mean, I much prefer to.

Speaker 2 1:47:51

Yeah, I think for me it's more so maybe, where that goes. What often would happen would that I'd meet people and then I'd get like an email saying oh, I've thought of this, I've done this, oh, what about this? Can you help me with this? All innocently, because I'd be the first person say yeah and I'd go, yes, so I'm because I didn't want to upset them, and this book's actually teaching me that actually you can control how you make somebody feel, but you can't control necessarily what they think of you, their opinion. So actually, as long as you've hit that mark in relation to controlling how you want to make them feel, so you're not an arsehole. Yeah, and you're very honest and transparent, and I think authenticity is key and I think that's a real superpower.

Speaker 2 1:48:30

When it comes to creativity, why be an artist that you don't want to be and never sell a painting? It'd be bizarre, wouldn't it, to be something you're not and never actually succeed? Yeah, yeah, I think I'm better now at saying no. Yeah, so I've got better at doing that. When it comes to caring less, if that makes sense, yeah, yeah and actually it's really cathartic and liberating when you say no to something.

Speaker 2 1:48:51

You get asked to come to all these events and you know that in three months time you're going to be sitting there in 30 degree heat, having to put a black tie on, thinking I can't be arsed, yeah, and so why don't you just come up with an excuse at the start? I'm really sorry, but fridays are so important to me nowadays, because my son does this.

Speaker 1 1:49:07

Yeah, someone once said if it's not a hell, yeah, it's a, it's a no 100. I've got that written here, have you really well, yeah if it's not a hell, yes, it's hundred percent, man.

Speaker 2 1:49:16

And it's difficult because you think oh no, I did it the other day and I imagine, with you being you mate, your network is so huge.

Speaker 1 1:49:23

I'm sure people do just come out of the woodwork going, oh fucking hell. Pj could help me with this.

Speaker 2 1:49:27

Or PJ. Knows this person or I?

Speaker 1 1:49:29

want Alison Hammond to endorse my new fashion brand.

Speaker 2 1:49:32

PJ or whatever. I get asked that, I bet, yeah, genuinely, I get asked that probably 20 times a week, and that's what I mean.

Speaker 1 1:49:38

And because they know you're such good friends and it's funny. We may or may not leave the bit about Alison in the beginning, but yeah, again, it's these people. Yeah, I don't think it's not bad.

Speaker 2 1:49:49

They're not bad people I actually don't get, but I think I used to put things in front of Alison and actually she's managed to the nth degree of her life at the moment. And it was affecting our friendship, because I didn't want her to think and it wasn't me asking her for a favour.

Speaker 1 1:50:04

You felt you were having to do something for someone else in your work. I better ask Alison. Yeah, for people that don't know, and now I'm pissing Alison off and affecting my relationship, so I'm affecting her relationship by not even asking her to do something for me it's bizarre, isn't it? Yeah, so it's mad.

Speaker 2 1:50:16

So we almost have an agreement whereby I'd send it straight to her agent. Now, yeah, and they can decide what happens. Yeah, yeah, of course I mean bitch, just send it to her man.

Speaker 1 1:50:24

Put it on Instagram, she'll see it. Well, no, I mean, I'm sure Alison won't mind us talking about it?

Speaker 2 1:50:31

I don't expect it. Alison's a great person journey yeah, same person that I saw when she walked down the steps of Big Brother House. Alright, bub.

Speaker 1 1:50:39

Yeah, I think that was the first thing she said, but I think that in a time where everyone rants on about authenticity yeah, she is nothing but that, no, she's not you don't look at her and go, oh my god, she's playing a role, but then again for years.

Speaker 2 1:50:53

I thought ease in the sense that you were. She might have to. She struggles with losing her mom as well and there's times I can only imagine that she's thinking about her mom and having to go on to national television. She's playing some sort of part because she brings that joy and energy and, um, but going back to what I said.

Speaker 1 1:51:09

Most people, me included, would look at you, your world, and go what? Wow, super confident out there doesn't battle anything, he just gets on with it. But of course we're humans, we all battle stuff. Yeah, yeah, 100 and yeah, I'm well, and much respect to allison for what she's done and continues to do.

Speaker 2 1:51:25

Yeah, she's great I have got?

Speaker 1 1:51:28

I think I've got. We've spoken about a lot dude. Yeah, I've got one. I've got a couple of things I want to say there's something that we spoke about before and something that keeps coming up when we speak. Yeah, it's both a blessing and a curse to feel everything so deeply.

Speaker 1 1:51:45

Yeah, and I think we are two empathetic people. Yeah, and we do feel a lot. I know that I'm very open talking about my emotions. You're obviously clearly very open talking about emotions that I hope can inspire someone else. But what truth or lesson would you most want someone listening to take away from this podcast? Wow, I know that's because we have spoken about a lot and mass and grief and resilience and adaptability and reinvention, but yeah, I think um.

Speaker 2 1:52:20

Borrow my perspective if you want, because it's the most liberating thing at the moment, but it's wrapped in it's gift, wrapped in grief. So borrow anybody's perspective that you can and really lean into it. There's so many times I used to listen to things or read things and go. You know I'm going to put that into practice and never do. I think momentum beats perfection. It's a bit deep, but I always used to have to. I probably missed opportunities by overthinking what the logo looks like or what the website looks. Get on with it, just get. What is it done?

Speaker 1 1:52:49

is better than perfect.

Speaker 2 1:52:50

Yeah, you can refine it later I'm a big believer at that and it's like get on with it and fail fast, it leads into, leads into all those things Don't hurt anyone, don't be racist, don't be cruel, do all that. But if you fail fast, so what? You're going to learn so much whether it's right in the first place, whether so, yeah, I think getting things done and going for it is really important. That what if?

Speaker 2 1:53:11

thing you important and I think I think I've always confused busy with productive. I don't want to be a busy fool. It's like the sign of being like in demand. Yeah, I'm busy, man, but you're just worn out doing things for other people for no money. You say if it's not productive, and you need to know what that needs to look like. But if it's not bringing you joy, if it's not productive and you're still busy, you've really got to look at something in your life and really try. But it's not easy. It's not bringing you joy. If it's not productive and you're still busy, you've really got to look at something in your life and really try and back. It's not easy. It's not easy.

Speaker 1 1:53:43

But if anyone takes anything from this, look at your story, the adaptability, the reinvention along the journey to find your purpose. Essentially, I know that we're stealing from Hannah a little bit in her podcast, but don't expect things to happen overnight.

Speaker 2 1:53:56

neither we see these overnight successes of like Gymsharks. It's still 12 years.

Speaker 1 1:54:01

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 1:54:02

And I think it's this brilliant sort of picture that I love Two geezers mining a tunnel with a big pickaxe and one guy has gone further than the other and they're all going towards the edge of the page, yeah, and the guy has started to turn back on the button and he's gone further than the one that's just started out and they're all going the same direction, but this guy has turned back while the other one's starting to move and he's moved and he's turned back at that moment. If he had one more he would have got the gold. So success, these projects, these chapters in your life. They say that success usually is a 10-year thing and I feel that I do feel that because Loughborough 10 years, I can now real pinpoint all the impact that had. The journey in marketing was 10 years. My journey in law was 10 years. I'm putting myself at 55 there, but there were about eight to nine years.

Speaker 2 1:54:48

They're overlapped.

Speaker 1 1:54:49

I was doing Loughborough when I was a lawyer these seasons.

Speaker 2 1:54:51

Yeah, and I was doing Lightbox. So although they're overlapping, they were still 10 years projects if that makes sense. So, yeah, I think the journey I'm on at the moment has it's a great enabler grief in really being retrospective in that. What person do I really want to be? What do I want to be remembered for and why? What do you want your legacy?

Speaker 1 1:55:13

to be Just a good bloke. Every man's a man. Yeah, every man's a man.

Mommy's Boy and Future Projects

Speaker 2 1:55:16

He was a good bloke, just like every man's man, yeah, every man's man. He was a good bloke. He'd always help me out and I think because I don't remember I do know, of course, but no one anyone has ever said to me, or I remember your mom had a great bank account. I remember your mom didn't have any debts. I remember your mom she drove a lovely mini. Never, it's always, your mum was amazing. She said something to me at the right time. She helped me out, she gave me this, she put me in this direction, and it's how that made her feel. And yeah, so I just want to be remembered as a good bloke. He was a good dad who did something that helped Birmingham. I'm man of Birmingham. It's been great to me.

Speaker 1 1:55:55

I don't think it's just Birmingham. I think in any situation you would be put in legacy to Marion. Other people always come first.

Speaker 2 1:56:05

Yeah, yeah, it's not a bad thing. You've got to report, you've got to fill the cup up and all that, and that's what.

Speaker 2 1:56:11

I'm getting back to Recharge your battery when you need to, yeah and be more confident in knowing what that looks like, and more confident in knowing that, what that looks like and sometimes to me it's just doing nothing, sitting with my wife, going for lunch, going for a walk. We go for a walk every day. Simplest of things, just the simplest of things, mate enjoying that smell of the coffee that you've had in the morning, or the fact that you can have a nice bagel with the fun we put on it.

Speaker 1 1:56:31

I don't know, but even that sitting on the bench with kelly and the dog running around the place, yeah, because because that is what miss most with mum.

Speaker 2 1:56:38

When we go on a bike ride, I look at this bench and we used to sit on that and what I would give to just sit on there, wouldn't even have to talk to her, just sit on there with her, that I would give everything.

Speaker 1 1:56:47

I own.

Speaker 2 1:56:48

Yeah, I would give everything I own to do that and that's why the whole sort of my next steps in life. Of course you've got to pay the bills and all that sort of stuff, but equally that's not a priority to me anymore money it's not. There's different ways that I'm judging success by and I really look forward to this chapter in my life. I just wish mum was on it with me. I know she is, but I just wish physically she was. But I've got to be grateful to her for this new perspective.

Speaker 2 1:57:22

It's as simple as that the greatness of a man is not in the wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively well, I love that.

Speaker 1 1:57:25

That's. That's a quote similar to a quote that I like actually should we go on to that, then? Yeah, I feel like we've spoken about a lot closing tradition for the creative no land podcast. We like people to leave us with some sort of quote that's resonated with you. Okay, and also god pj ellis and his monster network, someone that you think could be a really interesting guest to come on.

Speaker 1 1:57:44

Yeah, two challenging things to do actually yeah, again, paradox of choice that we're talking because there are so many amazing questions yeah, yeah, I'm reading the chimp paradox again at the moment.

Speaker 2 1:57:54

Yeah, great, um, I love that word. Paradox, um, okay, whatever you do, always give 100 unless you're donating blood. That's bill murray and that's exactly.

Speaker 1 1:58:05

I love that, so I'm not sure this one is.

Speaker 2 1:58:09

These quotes are always attributed to sir winston churchill, aren't they? He may or may not have said this, but I like it. We make a living by what we get.

Speaker 1 1:58:16

We make a life by what we give I really like that and that fits in such the ethos of creative. No land we're trying to give back and we're trying to inspire others yeah, you are.

Speaker 2 1:58:25

Yeah, we make a living by what we get. So that was what I used to think. My purpose was what I get, what I receive, what money I earned wages, the watches I bought, the car, I had the house, I had the curb appeal. But I'm making a life now and I'm knowingly so by what I'm giving. We make a life by what we give. So we give perspective, we give time, we give opportunities presence energy, love, goodness, conversation.

Speaker 2 1:58:55

Silence, sometimes Just like you say, sitting in the mud with your friends, 100%, and that's, I think, actually the second. You get to know that what a life you'll lead Because you'll give your time to your kids, which I didn't for eight years.

Speaker 1 1:59:08

Yeah, so that if it was so in St Churchill. Thank you, sir. Yeah, but I don't care, it doesn't matter, I love it. The sentiment's still the same.

Speaker 2 1:59:19

Yeah, I love it, mate. There's always in a world where you can be anything, be kind, all that sort of stuff. That stuff is massive to me.

Speaker 1 1:59:26

And hearing your story and your mum's story. That's obviously a legacy from her.

Speaker 2 1:59:29

Yeah, yeah, she's the kindest person I ever met. Yeah, 100, wife kelly and my family. She's just that's what. She was just kind with the time with her belongings, with her energy, with the money, with the food with her everything. She just always put us first and I'm grateful for that upbringing. I really am so person. This is a good one. So you want me to suggest a creative yeah to be on this podcast, by the way. Way, this podcast is great, mate. So there's the obvious ones on Instagram, like Alison.

Speaker 1 2:00:02

Alison Hammond. Again, I do think that would be a creative story.

Speaker 2 2:00:05

I think Alison Hammond would be amazing. I just think, yeah, I think she would be incredible and actually she might want to do it. You never know. Alison's a lovely person who would give so much from saying so much. I think sometimes the position she's in, she has to be quite careful what she says yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 2:00:23

But I would say there's a funny guy man online Tap Vision. Have you come across him? The paper mache, like the paper mache expert, he's mental man. I love that guy. Bam Bam Birmingham if you come across them, they're doing all these funny Birmingham brands within iconic album covers.

Speaker 1 2:00:40

So the other day.

Speaker 2 2:00:41

He just posted a photo of the Spam team. Remember Spam, yeah, and the top it's B-Ham, birmingham, and the Barbie font is Brummie. And he created me into a South Park.

Speaker 1 2:00:51

He used Sun.

Speaker 2 2:00:51

Park and all this. It was wicked, but there's, I would say, the people that I would love you to talk to. There's a company called Stormworks, joe Holesley and Connor Watt two students that's not anymore, but met at university, and the creativity they've got. They've set up a video company. They've also set up something else now called sportworksio, but I did some work with them and the creativity they have is just ridiculous. They are unbelievably that, those experts that bring their passion. It's not just their craft, they know it inside out. They're obsessed with how to tell stories. But I think topping them sorry, joe and connor might be a lady called pamela aculi. She's a lovely lady, pam, and she's got a business called Just Like Me Books and Mixed M-I-X-D reality. Okay, and basically she does so much more than this, but they're augmented reality picture books that are inclusive and her story as to why she got there. It's her eldest son. He's autistic, nonverbal. He's actually quite beautiful. So from a very challenging situation, she has been creative to then enable a way of developing learning in a creative way.

Speaker 1 2:02:09

She's again trying to help other people. Really impressive mate which is very much similar to your story.

Speaker 2 2:02:14

So check them out, because they are great people helping others without being as creative as they probably know to be fair and then inspiring and very real at the same time.

Speaker 1 2:02:25

Yeah, check them out is there anything, pete, that we haven't spoken about, that you think we should?

Speaker 2 2:02:31

no man other than fair play to what you do. I know that it's not easy to run podcasts. I know I know how difficult they are to plan and to host and to then distribute and edit and all that. It all looks sexy when you see it, but I also know the tears that sit behind that sexiness yeah, sometimes the mask that we all have to play when yeah, but I'm grateful for you, mate.

Speaker 2 2:02:53

I'm grateful because it's a slog and you said the other day that you know, to get into one percent club you've got to produce 21 podcasts. Sounds easy? I know it isn't. I know it isn't and I'll actually. To get to your two and a half thousand downloads, or whatever, it is three thousand plus.

Speaker 1 2:03:08

Now there we go, sorry, sir he's massive.

Speaker 2 2:03:11

It's not commercialized. That neither or have the celebrity back in it. That's amazing, and you've affected two and a half thousand people who've listened to those. Whatever insights they've got from whatever person they listen to, takes a lot of going, mate. It's a fair play and I'm really grateful for you inviting me onto a platform that allows me to unload cheers, mocha well, I think your story, of all these things that we've spoken about resilience, adapt, reinvention, authenticity and purpose.

Legacy and Life Lessons

Speaker 1 2:03:40

Pete, I don't want to get emotional, but I never met Marion, yeah, but yeah, I think you're an incredible legacy and I'm sure the rest of the family are. But you doing what you do and us having that connection of all we want to do is try and inspire others to do the shit that inspires them and help and be a positive. Every man's man, a good guy, not be a dick in life. And, like we say the bob marley quote that we just spoke about it's not the wealth of a man, it's his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively. And you are a shining example, not just for brum and the west midlands, but I hope that wherever they're listening to this can take stuff away and be inspired by you, dude, because whether they're an artist, creative business person, entrepreneur, just someone trying to get through something, yeah, man, thank you for being so open.

Speaker 1 2:04:31

Thank you for being so honest.

Speaker 2 2:04:33

It's all right mate, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 2:04:35

I love you to pieces. Thanks, Mark. And we're going to share everything about Mummy's Boy, the All Right Bab podcast, the Wit and Grit podcast. We'll get it all out there for you.

Speaker 2 2:04:42

No, I appreciate it, mate. Keep doing what you do and any artist out there that you know he's creative and he's struggling. My door's always open, but just back yourself, man. Most is yourself, so just be kind to yourself, continue being good, backing yourself and the world's your oyster man.

Speaker 1 2:05:00

Just have some fun out there what a great way to end it, and the creative noah land community will continue to back you to the hill, brother thank you so much, dude, I appreciate you cheers man.

Speaker 1 2:05:09

Thanks for listening to the creative noah land podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the creative noah land shop. And here's the bonus when you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So thanks again for listening and until next time, explore, inspire and create.

Speaker 2 2:05:56

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a and create you.