#0026 SOPHIE DERRICK - WHAT MAKES A 'PROPER' ARTIST?

Welcome to The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

When do you get to call yourself a 'proper' artist? 

Is it when you sell your first piece of work? Is it when you've done a master's degree? Is it when you've exhibited internationally, had sellout shows, and amassed a huge social media following? Or is it when your work is recognised by huge art world names like the Saatchi Gallery or The Royal Academy?

Well, our guest on this episode, Sophie Derrick, has done all of that and more, and even she sometimes struggles with that question. 

Sophie is a portrait artist, often using herself as the subject and the canvas. Who plays with the dualities of photography and painting, the real and the abstract, tactile paint and the flat image to create work that is both bold and in your face, and also kind of hidden and intriguing.

In this episode, Sophie talks us through her creative journey from studying fine art at Leeds University, finding her distinct style and some of the ideas behind that style, to some of the challenges of navigating the art world while doing a master's degree at the same time. Imposter syndrome, and the solitude of being alone in the studio a lot as an artist with little or no feedback coming your way.

We talk about taxidermied animals and about an interview to work for Damien Hirst. What it's like exhibiting internationally and at galleries like the Saatchi Gallery and what it was actually like to be selected for the Royal Academy Summer Show.

But we also talk about, in Sophie's words, her best body of work and solo show 'Close to Nothing'.

And most impressively, what it looks like when trying to create. Follow your passion and be a quote-unquote 'proper' artist, while being a busy mom of three young children. 

No, easy task, as I'm sure you can imagine!  

Check out the links below to see Sophie's work while you're listening to the podcast, of course!  Hope you enjoy this episode of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

SOPHIE DERRICK WEBSITE: https://www.sophiederrickart.com/

SOPHIE DERRICK INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/sophiederrickart/

Transcript

What Makes A “Proper Artist”?

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Nobel Am podcast. When do you get to call yourself a proper artist? Is it when you sell your first piece of work? Is it when you've done a master's degree? Is it when you've exhibited internationally and had sellout solo shows and amassed a huge social media following? Or is it when your work is recognized by huge art world names like the Sarchi Gallery or the Royal Academy? Well, our guest on this episode, Sophie Derrick, has done all of that and more, and even she sometimes struggles with that question. So if that's something that you struggle with as well, then you're definitely not alone. Sophie is a portrait artist, often using herself as the subject and the canvas, who plays with the dualities of photography and painting, the real and the abstract, tactile paint and the flat image to create work that is both bolded in your face and also kind of hidden and intriguing. In this episode, Sophie talks us through her creative journey, from studying fine art at Leeds University, finding her distinct style and some of the ideas behind that style, to some of the challenges of navigating the art world while doing a master's degree at the same time. The classics, imposter syndrome, and the solitude of being alone in the studio a lot as an artist with little or no feedback coming your way. We talk taxidermy animals and about an interview to work for Damien Hearst, what it's like exhibiting internationally and at galleries like the Sarchi Gallery, and what it was actually like to be selected for the Royal Academy Summer Show. But we also talk about, in Sophie's words, her best body of work and solo show, Close to Nothing. And most impressively, what it looks like trying to create, follow your passion, and be a quote-unquote proper artist while being a busy mum of three young children. No easy task, as I'm sure you can imagine. You can check out the links to Sophie's work while you listen to the podcast, of course, but for now, let's get into it. Thanks for having me. We've just discussed before we started, actually, I've mentioned to a few people that uh I was doing this podcast with you, and they've gone, oh, Sophie Derrick, she's a proper artist. Do you remember the day when you decided that you could call yourself a proper artist?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I have like a particular exact time, but it did take me a really long time to feel like I could say that.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

And I asked you that because when we spoke about doing the podcast, there's a moment in your story in your timeline that we will go into where your mum turned to you and said, Come on, Sophie, when are you gonna call yourself an artist?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah. I think I'd been like selling stuff for a while and doing doing stuff. I had been like making work and having shows and stuff, but I don't know. I think I just really I felt like you had to like have all the qualifications and be being a full-time artist and nothing else, and you can then you can call yourself a real artist.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Do you consider yourself a real artist in Inverted Commas now?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I guess I kind of do now. Maybe. I don't know, it always feels weird, doesn't it? I don't know why it feels like a bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

I ask that because from the outside looking in, you've got a huge social media following, you're done lots of art fairs, you've had solo shows, you've been award-nominated, shortlisted for prizes on paper.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So the outside world, you are quote unquote the proper artist.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah. I think maybe I didn't feel like I was until I was doing it like as my proper job. And that's not to say if other artists are have got other things going on, but they're not proper artists. Just I don't know. I just felt like for me, that was just like, okay, now this is literally all my life. So I guess I have to call myself an artist now. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

I guess what I'm trying to get to is at the bottom of it all is that universal imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah.

unknown 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

You've done all these things and all these people go, wow, look at Sophie Derrick. Amazing. But yet you still suffer from that imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah. Yeah. I still do now. And I don't know. It's such a weird thing, isn't it? You never I like we were talking about before. I think just being on your own in your studio, not ever not ever. I mean, I do see people sometimes, but the majority of my time is in the studio on my own. So I don't really I don't know, I guess I like social media, but I never really properly get to see what other people think or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

But does not being invited to take part in these art fairs, having solo shows, all those other things we'll get to another quite poignant one, which I won't we won't talk about yet. But have you not given yourself irrefutable proof throughout your career that you are an artist?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, I guess so. I think you get to you do some of these things, and then you're like, yeah, I felt really good about myself. It's all great. I'm a proper artist. And then I don't know, you'll be like, I really need to do some new stuff and I need to do more, and I need to like work on this and that. Like confidence comes in weight. Yeah, and then you're like, oh god. I'm not as good as other people, aren't they? Deal with that whole imposter thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

And being alone in your studio must be difficult for validation as such, is it? That feedback or yeah, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

That's what I was trying to think of earlier. That is the word feedback, because it's not necessarily like what other people think of you, it's just yeah, more of it not really knowing how people are interpreting things or like viewing things, and so yeah, it's hard to get through that when you're just on your own in a studio and you just go down a hole of like a hole of God, this is rabbit and human nature though, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah. The negative bias that's all in is our brain's designed to keep us safe, so it's just gonna go, oh no, this is rubbish, we shouldn't be doing this. Shall we talk about the work then? Yeah. Because you've got a very distinct and defined style.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Do you want to tell us a little bit about your style?

SPEAKER_02 6:40

I will probably have to go back to the beginning of this situation because it all started at uni. I've always been into figurative work and I always would come back to figurative kind of ways of making stuff, but I also always loved conceptual art and installation art and different facets of art. And I don't know, I love things that have a really good idea behind them, but they're also like really visually interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

And your work is definitely visually interesting, striking.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Yeah. But as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So an audio podcast, can I be a bit cheeky and ask you to describe what your work looks like?

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, so there are portraits, I'll say contemporary portraits, and what I do basically is I paint onto myself and take tons of photos, and then I will pick a few of them and print them as acrylic prints, and then I paint over the top of them. So I'm like flattening out the paint and then re-animating it over the top, a mixture of painting and photography and slightly sculptured elements.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Using this kind of impasto sculpture brush strokes, yeah. It's really thick and textured and yeah, really thick texture, big brush stroke. So I know there was a kind of specific moment where you found this style, but I've got a really random one. What were you creating before you found it?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

I was making portraits, mostly self-portraits, actually.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

But they were why self-portraits? Because that's carried over in.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, I think just literally because it's easy and I could just look at myself in the mirror and do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

There wasn't something about you wanted to be the art or no, no. Because now you are the art. Yeah, I know. And that's there is a barrier.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah. And that is one of the things about myself that I'm like, no, no, not me, not about me. Because I didn't know, I never intended it to be anything about me.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Was it simply just because you were there?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah. Maybe subconsciously there's other things. I definitely think now with my current work that that is a subconscious kind of personal element to them.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

You studied fine art at Leeds, and this is where you found this. Can you talk us through the process of what led you down this style route? It was a specific sort of module from your university course.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah, so I was making all this figure of work, self-portraits. I was doing other portraits too, but I was like taking photos of myself in a kind of like angsty pose because I was in a bit of a like, I don't know what to make. I want to do painting, I want to do portraits, but I need something more from it. So I was making all these kind of angsty portraits at the same time. So my course was half history of art. So in the history of art side of things, I was doing a module about masking. It was so interesting, I loved it. It was about African masking and just all masking throughout the ages and in art and everything. I don't think I even connected this up, but it was definitely subconsciously because of doing that module that I'm like, oh, maybe I'll just mask myself with the paint and make uh make myself into a painting, become this other thing. Because in the African masking, it was about them making these really intricate, amazing masks, and then they'd have to go away from their family, go on their own into a separate space and put the mask on, don the mask, and then they'd come out and they're become this other person. That was a completely other entity, this other kind of personality. And was that out of that?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

You wanted to be a different person, you were frustrated to present yourself differently.

Leeds, Masking, And Auerbach

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Maybe I think now a big part of it is I always remember I did this personality testing, like a really proper one. And one of the things, the only thing I remember about it actually is that it said that I'm an introvert trying to be an extrovert, and I felt like this is my work now of the epitome of an introvert trying to be an extrovert, like me as just an a figure covering myself, masking myself with this crazy bright, bold mask and presenting that to the world.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Do you remember the first moment after you've discovered this masking style in the history of art? Do you remember the moment when you first started going, right, I'm gonna put paint on myself? Yeah. Did it start more simply? Did it start as a flat image and then you painted on that, or did you go straight onto paint? No, I went straight into paint on my face.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

I just really remember being in my tiny little bedroom and needing something like, yeah, maybe I'll do some more self-portraits or paint myself. Or maybe I'll just paint on myself, and then I just was like, yeah, I'm gonna do it. And I first of all, the first time I ever did it was with acrylic paints. And I did put on like a Vaseline layer, but it was still very painful. It obviously just dries because it's like plastic, isn't it? So it just dried really quickly, but it did look really cool and it came off in one like mask.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Oh wow. So it was like we probably should put a caveat. It's not the most advised thing to stop. Yeah, I would not advise anybody to use it. And we will discuss how Sophie gets around that issue later in the podcast. What was the response from your peers, from your tutors?

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, it was really it was really good. I got a really good grade for that, for doing that, and that kind of spurred me on a lot of it. It's really a cool idea to do. So yeah, it kind of went from there because it I was just doing the photos on this really crap little camera. This was like 2007.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

I didn't I think I had a phone, but there was no like camera phones or anything. It was like yeah, on these tiny little set ones. So yeah, I just had I think it was my friend's little instant digital camera thing. I was just taking those photos.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

But it came out really cool. It didn't really matter if you're going to then paint onto them. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

I actually didn't start painting onto them for a while. So I was just like the image, the sort of raw image was the work at that point. Okay. And then I started painting with oil paint. Which again is probably more dangerous for your skin. Advised. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Not advised, yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

But yeah, that kind of looked really good too. Was that where you started to see the thickness and the Yeah, that kind of gave a bit more of a thickness to it, but I wasn't I didn't get this thickness stage as I'm doing it now until RD. Because I got asked to do this show at the Leeds Library, and I had to choose a book from the library to use as and use that as an inspiration to make a piece of work that would then be in this show.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

What book did you choose?

SPEAKER_02 13:45

I chose our back book because my tutor before had been saying that you should really look at him. And I I didn't do that. I think I might have just looked him out of that, but not really properly literally. So yeah. Oh, have you got the book there? This is not the book, but this is then my book that I bought and it became like my Bible. Bible. Which is covered in paint.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

And what was it about his work that stood out to you when you started looking into it that was felt like it connected?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Um it was just so painterly. I just loved the way he can make a face, make a portrait out of just like really abstract brush strokes, and but you can get a sense of that person so well from it. And yeah, I think I just really loved the painterly aspect of his work. So I basically recreated his work onto me, literally onto my face. And from then on, I just I got this book and I basically copied loads of his brush strokes or his colour palettes, or I don't know, some of the early ones from this are like very similar to his work, but just like recreated onto me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Did you find that was part of the sort of an experimenting with style phase and getting used to your finding?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Yeah. And then that was when I started to paint on top of them too, because I just wanted to have that kind of tactile, painterly encaste feeling on the surface as well as in.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

And that's like you say, very much defined what you do moving forward. So what was that, 2008, 2008?

SPEAKER_02 15:25

That was probably yeah, 2000. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

So if you've come out of university, you found this sort of style. Yeah. What does that look like for an artist coming out of university? Did you know, did you have the grand dreams of oh, I'll just come out of uni, I'll be an artist, and that'll be my day job, that'll be my life?

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yeah, I don't know what I thought. I I think I No, I don't think I I thought that I couldn't you can't be an actor.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Even though you've studied it, you've done the work, you still can't come out and be an artist.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

I remember being on my course and on one of our teachers saying, put your hand up if you if you want to be an artist after when you finish this course. And literally probably about two or three people put their hands up and there's four people. I think people just didn't think that you could do it. I don't know. So I think back then it was more difficult to be an artist, and not more difficult, but there wasn't as many opportunities, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

It was definitely a different time because you didn't have say social media fame, you couldn't distribute your work to the masses on I suppose at those times, you're blogging maybe and art, a few art websites and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

But yeah, I mean it was smartphones. No. It was literally you have to apply for loads of exhibitions.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

And is that what you do if you came out of uni? Yeah, even though despite not thinking you could be an artist, you still started plugging away.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

I was like, I probably can't do it as a job, but I do really think that there's something in this work that I'm making that I really can't let go, and I really want to push it and try and get out of there and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

What does that look like though to a graduate art student? What does that look like in terms of are you working a job, creating what are you applying to?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Oh my god. It was a really hard time actually because it was 2008 when I graduated, it was like the recession. So there was like no jobs anyway. And I stayed up in the east for six months or something and lived with my friends. I had a job in Kirkguide in Harriga, 15 out of the week, and literally had no money at all. And I wasn't making artwork then because just about any money to make it or like base or anything. And also I think I was just in a bit of a I don't know what I want to do. Do I want to be an artist? I literally had no idea what I was gonna do.

Early Career Grind And First Sales

SPEAKER_01 17:54

But again, is that just because we've all been taught the starving artist narrative is just that's what happened.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah, I think so. Even though like my parents were very um, you know, they were like, Yeah, go and do what you want to do thing, but I think they were also a bit like that really hard. Yeah be an artist. And I think just the general kind of ethos at that time a bit of a far-fetched job to have you're not gonna make much money, you have to have another job as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Well again, the starving artist narrative has just been so pushed on everybody that it's not even practical, but very different time now.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah, it is really different now.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

So was there a moment you're working at Kirk Geiger, yeah, you're doing 15 hours a week, probably not creating much. You've done this project with Leeds Library.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, so I'd done a couple of shows actually, and that kind of that made me think, okay, I need to keep going over this and I need to just through applying to shows yourself or I my tutor nominated me for the Pandary Gallery Prize. It was a gallery in London, and I was like, Thank you so much, that's amazing. And that really yeah, made me think, God, maybe there's something in there. So anyway, I confidence wise. Yeah, confidence-wise. So I yeah, I had a couple of shows, and yeah, I was just like applying for laser stuff. I had to move home, which was not fun.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

After three, three or four years of freedom at university on a curfew back on the mum and dad's before.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Yeah, like in Wiltshire in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

And like it was Did that feel important though, the geography of what you were doing?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah, I like I really wanted to move to London.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I wanted to because all artists just in London.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

I was like, when we moved to London, I'm live in Shoreditch, live off bread and water.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

And yeah, no, I just couldn't because I had no money and I ended up having three different jobs. I worked in a gallery and a pub and like a clothes shop.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Just doing anything you could, just like.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah, like make some money. And also my mum and dad actually luckily they had this little outbuilding and they let me use it as a studio.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Oh, cool. So I did have a really cool little studio. So they must have had a bit more belief in you as an artist than perhaps you could have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

No, I think they did. I think they did, but I think they I think they just wanted me to be okay and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

So while you've got these three jobs, is this where you read the Sunday Times article about degree art?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I read a little thing in the paper about them, and I think they just started up and can you say a little bit more about who degree art are? So they were the first online art gallery. So they pioneered that. I think they started it in 2007 or something. But obviously I didn't know about it then until I'd finished uni, and then yeah, I saw an article in the paper about them, they sounded cool, so I went on their website and you could apply to be with them. So I did, and they accepted me, and then they do signature art wise. I applied for that and then got into that, and then they sold a couple of pieces that I put into that.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

What does that do for your mindset?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, like in that God, that isn't real confidence thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

That's the dream, right? Yeah. Someone, not your friends, not your family, not your mum, not your auntie, buying the work.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, yeah, that was like a huge deal for me then because someone actually wants to buy the pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And working with Degree Art, that was quite a pivotal moment, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, so after that, then they took me to, I think it's a Bristol Affordable Art Fair, and then they sold everything, I think, there.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

All sold out.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, which was also amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah, mind-blowing. There's some people that would just dream of getting into one of these art fairs. You've gone to your first Bristol art fair and sold out everything. That must be.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

I went to the next one though, and I haven't sold anything, so just a little reality check there. But yeah, that one was really good. And then after that, I think they offered me a solo show.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And how does that help you in terms of again, your confidence, your evolution as an artist? Does that make you just believe in yourself a little bit more and try and push yourself a bit further?

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah, definitely. And I think it just also the reality of actually having some money to then make new work.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Because I suppose we should say, while you had these three jobs, you saved and saved to produce.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah, so I saved up a thousand pounds and then I made four pieces of work from that thousand pounds because making prints the way that I do are is so expensive. Actually, I think back then it wasn't actually acrylic print, it was just like a G-Clay print that mounted and everything, and they're so expensive.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

So yeah, I made four pieces, just hoped that they might sell, and then were those four pieces the pieces that you gave to Degree Art to sell to show up the art fairs?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Yeah, so I gave them to luckily. Sold out. They sold. So I was like, oh god, okay, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

And then I could make some more and in that same style as in the the G-clay prints and you print uh you paint then on the top of it.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

So I did that for quite I did that for probably three years or something.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Oh right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Maybe a bit less.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

But how was that style in that three years? How was that style shifting, evolving, changing? Was it a process thing?

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Those were my heavy hourback years. So I literally would go to this book and be like, yeah, that looks really cool, and I need to recreate it on to me. So they were very formative years, I say, my style. And then after that, I think they've got a bit more like probably a bit slicker.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Polished.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

A bit more polished, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

I suppose that comes with just technique though, right? And you get used to Yeah, you'd pay more girls, don't you? So everything realistically, you're selling out art shows, art fairs, you're having solo shows, you are the artist.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yeah. No, I definitely wouldn't have called myself an artist then.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

No, and then something else happens, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

You Yeah, so then I went and did an MA. So that was literally just I think the same week as I had my solo show, my first solo show, I then started my MA.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

And can we go into this? Because realistically, you're doing the verb, you're being the artist. But what did again some imposter syndrome kick in where you went, Oh, I should do another qualification to really register that I'm an artist.

Confidence Waves And Social Proof

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah, definitely. I don't know why. I just I think one of my teachers at Leeds had said, You should go into an MA and then you can like really delve into this work and push it further and all this sort of stuff. And that kind of lodged in my brain. And then I don't know, I just felt like again back then it was such a different time. It's not I like this at all now, I don't think. But I just felt like I had to do an MA to be a proper artist.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

It was quite qualification-led, wasn't it? Oh, you've gone and really, like you say, studied your practice and delved into the depths of it within the MA, so I must be a proper artist.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

But it's a very different time though now.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Yeah. And I did really want to do that. I did want to, because I had loads of other ideas of things to do with this and this concept, and I really wanted to push it further, but that kind of didn't really happen.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

And I But did you feel that at the time when you were applying for the MA? That did it feel like the right thing to do then, but in hindsight, yeah, were you running away from being the artist that you were already being? Maybe maybe.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

I don't know. I remember it being like a real should I just go and get a studio at Wimbledon Studios and just carry on this wave that I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Had you moved to London at this point, or did you have a lot of people? No, I was still living.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

I moved to London just before the MA, like the summer before.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

So you send the MA in Wimbledon, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna ask another random question. Uh maybe you're very humble. How did your fellow students on the MA react to you doing the MA, someone who's come and you've sold out art fairs and you've done these things?

SPEAKER_02 26:06

I think they hadn't they knew degree art, so they did know my work and they were like, Oh aye. I don't I think, yeah, I think a couple of people were like, Oh, you've got a show on now.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Did you ever think that about?

SPEAKER_02 26:20

I think what I thought was that I was going to I was gonna do all these ideas anyway and push this work anyway. So why not just do it on an MA and get a qualification for it? I think that's what I thought, but it didn't turn out that way.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Um How was the MA for you then? And because we spoke and it didn't you didn't feel it progressed, you really no, I really didn't enjoy it that way. If anything, maybe set you back a bit. Yeah, it did it did. Can you say a little bit more about that? In what way?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I think I got there, and I think most art courses they want you to break down what you're already doing, and you always have to start again. And I obviously had gone onto that course thinking, this is fine, I've got my idea, I'm gonna do this, that, that. And that kind of wasn't really the case. You're there with loads of other people who are amazing, and you I don't know, maybe it's all brought me down a peg or two.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

But this is where going back to my original question about when you get to call yourself an artist, because this is when you decided to go back to your MA. This is when your mum turned around and said, Come on, Sophie, why are you going back to university? When are you gonna start calling yourself an artist?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I just it just wasn't really it wasn't the right time for me to do that. I should I probably should not have done it at that time. I should have just continued doing my thing. But I don't know. It was also really intense because it was a year, it was only a year course, and it was full-time. I didn't really have any other time to be making the stuff that I had been doing before.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

And did that affect you in the sense that before the MA, you're selling out shows, you're making work, and it's just that sort of I can just get in, make the work. Yeah. And then that step back of going, I've got to deconstruct all this work. Well, actually, I don't really need to deconstruct it, I need to move forward in it and create more.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Yeah, so I ended up liked the stuff that I made on me and me. Looking back at it now, it was quite similar, but I went off on a different tangent with it.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

In what way?

The MA Detour And Taxidermy

SPEAKER_02 28:14

So I started painting onto taxidermy animal.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Oh, okay. I did not expect you to say that, Sophie. We didn't we I've done my research, but I haven't found those.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

No, that's a little buried. Buried.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

I have got some very strange images in my brain right now. Please explain. You started painting on taxidermy animal to what's I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

I don't know why I thought I can't really fully remember what happened to me. I can't do this anymore, I've got to do something else.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

But was that the sense of being in education? The pressure of oh, I've got to break my style down and understand what at the crux of the style is you.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Being the art, being hidden by the art.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah, so I went off on this little tangent of like images and taxadomy for it coming in breaking painting. Yeah, there was fox, many fox. Fox. Yeah, and birds. Because taxadomy is really expensive too, so yeah. I could only really afford birds, and then someone gave me this fox.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

So maybe we've got to find some pictures of this painted fox. I've got a painted fox upstairs.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Oh, yeah, I've got it, it's upstairs.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Okay, yeah, that sounds like a complete departure thing, but I know.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I don't I don't even know, but I was like, I'm gonna retain this bit of my practice of painting onto things. I'm gonna do it on animals, but then it became like a whole thing about it was very a different concept. It was like I went into how we try to depict the animal kingdom and how we try and like capture animals with our way of seeing them and all that kind of stuff. Were you trying to be too arty if you remember? Probably.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I'm on an MA, I've got to really push the side. But that sounds so far away from what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

I know it was.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

How did you bring it back then?

SPEAKER_02 30:02

I finished my MA and I did all this text time stuff and I wasn't really into it. And I feel like a year actually was not enough time to like make a whole new practice, a whole new sort of concept. So I don't know, after the MA I was just like, I actually was like, I don't even think I want to be an artist anymore. I'm not gonna I'm gonna have to go and get that.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

But during your MA, you're still presumably wrecked by degree art.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Yeah, so I was, I was, and they were still taking me, they still took me to I think they took me to the Batters Art Fair. So they were still selling my stuff, but it wasn't, it was like very sporadic that I was able to.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

But was that because your focus wasn't there and was on the MA and painting foxes?

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah, painting foxes. Yeah, I don't know. I just I was very beaten down, I think, after that MA because also I just I don't know why I even did it because I hate art education. I hate doing crits, I hate doing all those things and sketchbooks to justify your ideas, especially on an MA. The crits are like horrible, they are brutal. And it just makes you be like, okay, well, fine. I'm just not gonna do it. You can swear, don't worry, If you all think it's that shit, then I'm not gonna do it. I'll just give up.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

I'll live in a dark room and I won't do it anymore. Yeah, I just like coming out when you want to say you put your belief in an MA going, oh, that's the thing that's gonna really define me as an artist. And it actually had the opposite effect. You come out and going, I don't even know whether I want to be an artist now.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

I did, I felt really deflated, and actually I did go and get a had to go and get a job because I'd spent all my money doing this MA. So I went and got a full-time job at MS doing visual merchandising kind of other mean stuff as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And this is the bit that probably people looking in now will go, yeah, it's it hasn't all been plain safe. No, absolutely not. Working for MS as a visual merchandiser, did that feel like I know it was essential, but did it feel like a step backwards?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yeah, it was I actually it was a really fun job and I had a really great time there, but I would never really my heart was not in it. It wasn't like I couldn't have progressed there because I just was like, I don't really want to do this.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

And while you're at MS, I mean those commitments that a full-time job brings doesn't again allow much time for outside creating. Were you creating?

SPEAKER_02 32:17

I was actually while I was there, I did things did pick up again with my artwork, and I did have a couple of solo shows actually with Degree R again.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Are those moments when you're having these solo shows but in full-time work?

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah. I know. Well, Degree R Isabel and Eleanor that owned Degree R that were like, Sophie, you really should just be a career artist, just do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

That's very easy for someone else to say though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah, I think how you've got to believe it yourself. Like, I really have to make some money too. And I was living in London and that comes with pay random, you know, everything. Yeah, I think I was just too scared, really, for a while to properly do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

But again, you previously had these signifying moments where you'd sold out shows, you'd been recognised, you've been shortlisted for prizes, you'd done these things, but yet that imposter syndrome is still strong, and you didn't believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Because I'm just thinking of artists that I know who would dream to be at Hampstead Art Fair or dream to be shortlisted for a prize, and they're just making art for the sake of making art, no recognition, no anything.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why. I just was like, I can't. I don't it is a scary leap, isn't it? To just be like, I'm just gonna be my own boss and I'm gonna do all that myself. And actually, in some ways, I think I am a bit better at making artwork if I have something else going on at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Really?

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah, because like obviously now I'm a mum as well, so that's like my other job.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, we'll definitely talk about that.

Post-MA Slump To Rebuild

SPEAKER_02 33:55

How do you think about talents of being a mum of the buttons I think if all of my like everything relies on making artwork or just everything is about making artwork, I can't do it. It's like too big, too much pressure. Because after my MA, I think I did have a couple of months where I was like, I'm just gonna get back into what I was doing before the MA and I'm gonna push that and I'm gonna do it and then No more taxidermy foxes. Yeah, no more taxidermy. I think it was just a really hard couple of months, and I was like, shit, I need to actually get a job. So I think, yeah, within that couple of months I didn't really make much work. I think I was just because it's it's I need another um something to take the pressure off, I think.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Does your work need an outlet as well? If you're just making work when you're in a full-time job working for MS, did you need the outlet? Oh, I've got a show or I've got a deadline, or I've got a man with a van coming to pick my work up.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah. Yeah, I think I always I still had that need to make it, to make stuff and keep my foot in the door of the artist.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

That's a tough one though, isn't it, when you're working full-time.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yeah. It was. I mean, there was definitely like some months where I would have wouldn't make make anything.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

How much were you definitely made in that three years?

SPEAKER_02 35:20

God, I don't know. I did do I I definitely had one solo show. And that was quite a lot of work, and then I would have made stuff in the art fair, so I probably did make maybe three new series or something.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

And how many are in a series generally?

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Actually back then, like I wasn't really working in a series, I'd just do like one one. Yeah, and maybe do maybe a couple from that shoot.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Is that but the process is long of painting yourself?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah, then I was like, I can't I cannot be like doing this every week or something. Because I was at the beginning, I was doing it quite a lot. It was just a lot, it's um it is a huge process and it's really it's like I'm absolutely knackered at the end of it because it's the whole painting process has such a physicality to go.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

And if you've got anyone that's helping you take the photos or is it just is it quite a personal yeah, literally no. Is that intentional? You don't want anyone else to get that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

I don't think anybody had ever been in the room and I've been painting myself. See, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yeah, I think that's these are essentially self-portraits. Yeah. But again, you're hiding yourself.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes back to the uh the African masking thing of them having to go away and be completely on their own to don this mask to then be able to become this other person. And I think that is a very similar thing. I could not do it with anybody around me because I couldn't get into the zone. I couldn't like because it is quite meditative, it's quite like you get into a bit of a zone with it. So yeah, I think if someone else is there, I'd feel like on edge.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

I think there's a self-consciousness that comes with anyone else being present when you're having your picture taken or whether you're painting anything. When you look at the work, do you see yourself or do you see a character or I don't really see myself.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

I see yeah, a different version, I suppose, or different person.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Is that part of why you create the way you create?

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I think I could never I could never put like my unpainted face into a piece of work. That's a bit that's too like revealing for me.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Because there's elements where I see there's a photographer Cindy Sherman, and she does a lot of self-portraiture, but she's very much characters within it. She'll dress herself up like an old woman or she'll dress herself up like a prostitute, she'll dress herself up like a character.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I wouldn't say they're like specifically characters, but they're like other I don't know what the word is, like other kind of versions, I suppose, a other a different person. So it's not like a character, but it a new person. But actually if you look at that piece up there, it's very different to these.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Like that I it's m that's much more our back to me.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah, so that was that was 2013. Because I did yeah, after my MA actually did go into a residency at Degree Arts Gallery when they were in Basel Green or Viner Street.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Um how was that for you? Did are these all baby steps in rebuilding that confidence, re-instilling that idea of I do want to be an artist, I can be an artist.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah, yeah, I think I always had that. I always had that desire to be an artist and make star. I think I just I really felt like I could do it with this work that I was making. If I wasn't really making work that I liked or that I thought was good, then I probably would have gone off and just stayed at MS or something. But I think I had quite a belief in my work and I just felt like I could push it.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

And then you were still getting this validation from these external elements, the degree art. Yeah, yeah. Is this where we hit 2016? And uh famous exhibition?

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Okay, so what I'm gonna ask Sophie, is this the moment where you go, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

I think it was a kind of a build-up to that because I think it must have been like 2014 to 2016 was quite a good time in terms of I've started selling quite a lot and doing the affordables and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

And um What do you equate that change to?

SPEAKER_02 39:48

I think I had started working a bit more in series.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

But you're still at MS at this point.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

I was still at MS, but yeah, I think I was just making more work and making the work as it is a bit more now, so a bit slicker. I started doing it on the perspecs rather than the G-clay prints. And that kind of elevated it a bit, I think.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

What was the moment where you went, Oh, I can paint on a different material?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

I don't remember. I think I'd seen somewhere. I'd seen like an acrylic print somewhere, and I thought, oh, that looks really cool. I wonder what that would be like to paint on. And so yeah, I did one little experiment one and I really liked it, and it just looked really cool. And also with the Chico prints, because obviously I was paint painting onto them with oil paint, the oil would seep into the print a bit, which was a little bit of an issue, but I would just paint over the top of it also. Well that was a little paint, and yeah, that was just like experimenting, yeah. That was just the early day. So yeah, I started doing it on these acrylic prints and doing these really big brush strokes. Um yeah, I think I started then also doing the really big prints like 100 by 150.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Which suddenly takes them to uh they're so bold, so stunning.

RA Summer Exhibition Breakthrough

SPEAKER_02 41:07

It makes them like really in your face. In your face. So I think that picked things up a bit more. So like 2014 to 2016, I'd started doing those those kind of prints, and yeah, and then 2016 I got into the RA summer exhibition.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

The Royal Academy Summer Exhibition, which is a big deal, really.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Yeah, and it was amazing, it was a really big point in my career. I think because it was a hundred by one fifty size piece, so it was a really big one, and it was in a room that had just a few really big pieces in it, so it was quite like boom, there.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

And did they not they ended up using your image as one of the flyers or the posters?

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah, they made well, they made a poster of it and it was like available to buy in the shop and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Do you get anything from that?

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Um, I got I think what was it? It was like they would either they could either give me 20 prints or give me, I can't remember how much it was, like 100 quid or something.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Oh, but not like a percentage of sales then. No, just the honour of being the Royal Academy show is enough.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

But as a result of that, presumably more eyes were on your work.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah, yeah. And it did really elevate things again.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Are you an artist at this point, Sophie?

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yeah, I think I was getting there. I think I was I was nearly able to say that. But uh I was still working at MS, but I was also pregnant with my first child.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

And this is where things change a bit. Yeah, is then you as a result of being pregnant, you leave Marx and Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

So I think for a while I had I was just like, I'm just gonna hang on in here until I can get my paternity pay, which I'm not sure that's a really bad thing to say. No, that's fine. Sorry, MLS. But yeah, I I was like, okay, get my paternity pay, and then I'm gonna just try and do my artwork and see what happens with it.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Was that not quite daunting though, being pregnant with your first child? Going, God, I've got to deal with learning how to be a mum. Yeah, I just creating art.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

It was actually really wild because I remember having him when he was like two weeks old, and I'd done loads of little portraits, and then suddenly, because of the RA thing, loads of people were buying them, which was amazing. But I remember him being like two weeks old and having to be packing up all these bits of pieces and stuff and sending them out to people and being like, I can't pick this right now. Oh my god. Goodness me, I can't. Yeah. So it was a bit of a crazy time. But yeah, like I look back on that year now and I'm like, I don't know how I did that because I had another solo show as well with Digri Art when Wilf, my little boy, was 10 months old.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

So this is close to nothing.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

2017. 2017, yeah. And this, you told me, is in your words, your best body of work. Oh. Which for for a young mother producing her best body of work. Can you say a little bit more about that show? How many pieces are in it? Because I've only ever seen pictures of it, but you had these acrylic glass prints and you had installations, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

So I think I made eight big pieces, and they went from a completely like white painted face, and then the next one would be like one added colour swipe on the phone.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

And what was the reason for that?

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Starting from Because I guess that was the beginning of the mask was this white, the white painted face, and then each one was adding on more paint, but in different colours, and then you got to the end one, and it was like really abstract, really colourful, crazy head, basically, just covered in paint.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

And where is the net where did the name for the exhibition come from? Close painting.

Motherhood And “Close To Nothing”

SPEAKER_02 45:24

It was because I just felt like that's what my work is. It's it's a bit in some ways nothing-y, because it's it's not a painting, it's not a photo, it's not a sculpture, it's not it's it's portraiture, but it's not traditional portraiture. It's because you know traditional portraiture is trying to capture that person, trying to capture their essence and like get them down in the paint as them, as their person, whereas mine is I'm trying to cancel myself out and trying to mask myself and layer it out rather than try and make an actual image of me. Close to nothing.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Does that mean you consider the work nothing? It sounds quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

This goes back to that imposter scene room.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Like I feel like it's just nothing.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

It's just nothing. Yeah, maybe that was probably a bit of that out of the.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Do you feel like you are a bit flippant about your own work?

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

And is that a cop is that just a coping mechanism, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Because if you're flippant about it, if someone else doesn't like it, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Yeah, yeah. I think that's probably what it is as well. And also, I don't know, I just got a real thing. I've always had a real thing of can't you can't boast, like you can't be don't be boasty, don't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Very British.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

Yeah, I'm sure lots of people have it. And it that is really difficult to be on social media and not feel like you're I can understand, especially again.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

I think that goes back to the perceived idea. I told you that I spoke to some people and they were like, oh my god, Sophie's a proper artist. And you're like, what? So I could I know that you don't feel like it, even though the accolades, the exhibitions, the solo shows, the sellouts, yeah, you don't feel it, which is it's a lovely trait, it's very humble, it's very warm.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

But sometimes it's not a good thing because I remember on my BA degree, I remember my tutor being like, if you don't believe in your work and you don't think it's good, then nobody else will. Because I think I was being so like, oh no, it's just nothing, it's just pop, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

And is that why it helped having degree art almost come on board to be that social proof to go, they're doing the almost selling. I just have to make the work and get it to them. They can do the selling.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Yeah, exactly. I think that's what it is like. Very important. And I would be horrific selling my own work. That's I could never do like another art fair or those ones where you have to just you are your salesperson. I just couldn't do it. I'm terrible.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

I'd just be like, oh yeah, it's just feeling it's just nothing, just my little bit of work. Yeah, very Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Well, that's not really how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

It's as I say it's a lovely character trait, but not good for business at all.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah, no, it's not terrible.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

So can we get into that close to nothing? How on earth do you find the time to produce when you are a young mum?

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. Because you only had one then. Yeah, only had three. Actually, back then it was okay because there was only one. Yeah. I had a really good group of friends who would look after him for me. They took him for a day, I remember. Took him off for a day so I could do some work.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

And does that coincide because this is where from 2016 onwards your career does take a it starts going.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Shall we say what the snowball goes over the crest of the hill and things start taking off? It's international art fairs, it's all those things. Is that as a result of I understand it must have been very difficult having your son?

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

But was the mindset, I'm not an MS anymore. I'm an artist and a mum. So when I'm not a mum, I'm doing the art.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Yeah. I think I was so like, yeah, and I was really happy to be out of MS, even though I did really like it there, but I didn't want to be doing that job. I like I love the people, the job I was out now. So I was really happy to be out of there and yeah, just be able to actually make all the things that I'd been thinking about making and not had time and stuff. And when babies are little, they have really that easy. They go to bed at seven, you've got a whole evening that you can be doing.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

When they start walking and moving around.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

Yeah, it's pretty impossible because they don't go to bed and expertly hard. But but that's right though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Well were you getting to go to any of these art fairs, the international ones, or was it just a case of giving your work and yeah, no, I did it because the first international one was well, I think they went to the New York, but the next one, the Miami one and Scope Miami.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

I couldn't go to that because I was then pregnant with my next child. She was born on the day that it started. No, yeah, she was born the day that it opened. Oh really? Yeah, so I was like, oh, I can't go to that. So I didn't go to that one, but then I did go to Miami in 2019. I went to the pulse, yeah, pulse show. How are you feeling at this point?

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Are you uh is the imposter syndrome dwindling now? You're selling these international art fairs, you're Miami, New York.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah, I think I was feeling pretty pretty good then. Yeah, so I said you can say you're like, oh gosh, I I felt good about my work. Good about it then. Yeah, no, I think it was that was like a really good point. And I yeah, I probably felt like I was an artist then.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Oh, you're living in London, you're selling international art fairs, you're creating work, and still balancing being a mum too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

So it was all good. That was all good times. And then what happened next? And we moved back out here in 2019.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Which is to Wiltshire. To Wiltshire. And what was the reason for that?

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Is that just raising children in London expense? Uh yeah, and we just we were just renting in London and we wanted to buy somewhere there's no way we could have bought anywhere in London. So we moved back out here.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

My mum and my family and everyone are still around here, so you know that feel like because there was that element of oh, I've got to be in London because London's where the artists I want to be in short it's still drinking my chin art, and I don't know, whatever that thing is.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Did it feel like a step backwards in your art career, but a step forwards in your life career? I don't think it did at the time, but what I mean by that is just leaving London, the bright lights, the big city. Oh, I can't say I'm an artist and lives in London anymore.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

If we hadn't had children, I definitely would not have left London. I'd be there now. But yeah, I think just we just wanted the kids to be in the countryside and stuff, and so move back here.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

But yeah, I think How do you navigate that? I I guess my question is I've spoken to previous artists who've lived in London and the inputs are everywhere. You can just walk down the river and go to say modern and go and look at a Roscoe or an hour back, or whoever that is, will share not so many creative inputs. Did you feel that? Did that have an effect?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

I think at the time I was like, we're only an hour away from London because it's really easy to get a trainer. I can just pop in, I'll go in every week and I'll do something. No, that didn't.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Two children, I can't imagine you pop in London every week.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

No, it's yeah. So I feel I do feel now a little bit like about out of the kind of I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

You feel like you're missing opportunities. Oh, I'm not going to that opening, I'm not meeting that person, I'm not Yeah. Or is it from a creative standpoint where I just I love where I live, but it's just green fields and cows and yeah, I think it's a bit of both.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

I think you don't realise like in London how much kind of outside influence you just get from just literally just walking around and like seeing interesting stuff all the time. Here is absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

You're seeing beautiful stuff all the time, but if a piece of start came up in Wiltshire, there might be a local country. Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

If I was a landscape artist, this would be absolutely prime time for me being here, but yeah, not so Did it affect your word moving back out? I think being not as anonymous has affected it a little bit. Because like in London, you're so anonymous, you can just do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Small fish in a moat pond.

Materials Shift: Acrylic Prints

SPEAKER_02 53:15

Do whatever you like, it yeah, it doesn't matter. Nobody really knows you, it's fine. But whereas being back here, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

I feel a bit more Oh so yeah, I suppose if this is where mum and dad are family friends, yeah, and I don't know at all. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

And I feel like sometimes I'm a bit almost scared to do like weird things, like my weird art ideas, because I'm like, oh god, what are you afraid of?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

What will all the mums think? Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Stuff like that, which is I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Have you ever asked any of the mums what they think? I think they all they I think they all like it.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

I think they all think it's pretty.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

I think I'll because I think actually it's probably more interesting than you might imagine. I imagine some of these people who are mums.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

I think they'd probably be quite impressed or quite or have at least have some respect that you, mum of three, you're still pursuing your passion.

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

It's not just a finance. I mean, yes, it's financial, it's your sole income. Yeah. But it's still a passion. Yeah. There's something to be said about that respect.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Yeah, no, I'm I it's probably it's literally, I think it's just me thinking all these things.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Would you ever would you ever ask them outwardly what they thought? Would you have a come on friends just come into the studio, critique my new work?

SPEAKER_02 54:29

I probably would with some of them, yeah. If they're nice to me.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

But that's the danger, isn't it? We want them all to be nice when actually we need to probably invite more critical voices into our space.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Anyway, we're moving around. So you've moved back to Wiltshire, and the career is going from strength to strength.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Yeah, it was all good, and then COVID happened.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Talk to me about COVID.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

COVID was initially really scary because obviously it was like scary because of what it was, and everyone was terrified, weren't they? But also because there was gonna be no art fairs or there's no shows, like how am I gonna actually make any money? That was really terrifying. So I think it was like a couple of weeks of that, and then the artist support pledge thing happened.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

And can you say a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02 55:20

So I think it was Matthew Barrows, wasn't it? He started up on Instagram kind of initiative where artists would post their work for I think it had to be£200 or less. And yeah, anyone could buy it. So it was like a really low price point, so that made it really accessible to loads of people, and it just exploded, and so many other like really big artists were doing it as well, and like people's work was just being snipped out.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Is this where you saw your social media following? Is that already happening?

SPEAKER_02 55:53

That had happened a little bit, I think.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Was there a moment where you suddenly went, God, I've had 3,000 followers and now I've got 30,000 followers.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yeah, I had two, I've had two of those moments. What were they? One was when it was 2016, it was a good year for me. And I remember I went to Berlin with my husband and I had to turn my phone off because I'd had my notifications on and it was like ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. Because I got 10,000 followers over like in a day. As a result of what though? Because the tax collection posted one of my reposted one of my pictures.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

What's the tax collection?

SPEAKER_02 56:29

They were like a huge social media Instagram account. I think they like an art sharing page. Yeah, it's like an art sharing page thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

Out of nowhere, you have to know communicated with them, they just found you and you went on the artwork.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

I think I don't know if I was late to Instagram, but I didn't have an Instagram until 2015, I think. But anyway, I haven't really, I was just like posting bits and bobs and stuff, and yeah, they I don't know, they must have just seen it and then they reposted it. And then yeah, I got loads of followers.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

And I was like, ah Did that equate to sales then?

SPEAKER_02 57:03

It did a bit, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

And what was the second moment where you noticed a bit?

SPEAKER_02 57:06

The other one was like a couple of years ago, and another like massive um art account on Instagram reposted a reel of mine, and that then I got like 20,000, 25,000 followers or something.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

Do you think that helps when you like having that audience already? I mean, I know we can't always argue that Instagram follows equate to bias. Yeah. But going back to what we said back in the day, you had a Nokia 3210, you couldn't take a photo on. Whereas now your work is being seen by tens of thousands of people, probably every week.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Yeah, it freaked me out, actually.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Did it?

SPEAKER_02 57:45

Yeah, I know. Everyone's like, Safety, why are you being so weird about this?

SPEAKER_01 57:48

No, because I think we should explore that because you're masking your in order to do your own art.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

And now 30,000 people are looking at you. So that mask and that veneer is tough. People can see what I do.

Leaving London, Wiltshire Trade-offs

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Yeah, I know. That is that freaks me out. It does really freak me out that I think when I first started doing all this work, there wasn't social media, it wasn't a thing. There was Facebook, but you weren't gonna put your artwork on Facebook really back then. So I could be so anonymous and just put my artwork out then. I could have even just not gone to shows and stuff, and nobody would have even And I think that's at the crux of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

You're hiding yourself.

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

But yeah, now there's no hiding.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Now I'm like, oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Yeah, so I don't know. I how do you deal with that? Um Do you feel a responsibility to that 30,000 people?

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yeah, or do you try and I've got a bit of a love-hate kind of relationship with it, probably everyone does, but because I really love making reels and stuff like that, and I like doing that sort of stuff, but then I get so nervous about posting things. I don't know why. I just feel like odd, this is going out to lots of people, and I don't know. It just it's putting yourself out there, isn't it? And it's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

And on social media, you are putting yourself out in the Sophie, not just the hidden Sophie in the pictures.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

I know.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

You're there putting the brushstrokes on canvas, you're doing the reels, you're doing the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:13

But you still do it. I do do it. Because I do I think it's interesting to show the process of things. And I don't everyone loves behind the scenes y kind of things, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Oh, I agree. I I love watching your reels and doing all those sorts of things, but I just like to get behind the psyche of yeah. The artwork is you hiding yourself, yet you have to present yourself making the artwork of you hiding yourself.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

Yeah. Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

It's like Inception, uh face within a face within a face that you don't want to show the face.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

I know, I know. I don't know. I hate having to have myself on things, but I think we I guess you don't have to do that, but I think like it was kind of in an A's process.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

You want to see the behind the scenes. People buy from people.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Yes, your work is more striking than most, but on the same respect, we do. I was talking about this to someone the other day about AI art. We want the story.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

No one wants to put, oh, look at that beautiful picture of my mantlepiece. Oh, who's the artist? Oh, I made it on AI. Yeah. No. Oh, that's a Sophie Derek. She paints these mad things, paint all over herself, re photographs it, prints it, paints it again. It's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

I think that's the thing, isn't it? I think everyone's a bit scared of AI, but I do think with things like art, like it's such a human thing that you that's what people want from it. They want the human element. Of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Imperfection is human.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

I think AI is interesting as a tool for making things.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

That's a hot.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Yeah, that's a whole other.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

AI is a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

So during COVID, you dare say you actually had quite a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Yeah, so it ended up being quite financially quite good. Yeah, it was really good for like maybe a year or two. Because I started doing prints as well then. I hadn't done like limited edition prints really before that. So I'd started doing it. Great, I get to ask this question.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Sophie, why do you only make print runs of 19?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

19, you've intrigued me since we spoke. I was like, why had a team?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

They're random.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

I've gone off on one there, that's my fault, listeners. But talk to me a little bit more about making these prints for the first time. Or like you say, making that more accessible for people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Yeah, I think it's probably because of the artist's support pledge and stuff, and just yeah, making it a bit more accessible for.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

You're not going to give one of these glass acrylic originals for 200 quid, are you? Yeah, no. Just simply because it's probably cost thousands to make. But again, talk to because people might think, oh, Sophie's just photographed a glass acrylic and it's gone back to being flat. They weren't, were they? You painted.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

No, so they're hand painted, hand finished. So it was essentially the way that I make an original, but just in a smaller scale and in an addition. And why an addition of nineteen? Oh yeah. Nineteen is this is such a random thing. I wish I hadn't done it now because it's so silly. But it's the sum of the dates of my first solo show.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

I like that. So what was the date of the first solo show?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

It was the 6th of the 10th, 2011. So if you add up all those the numbers individually, it goes to 19.

Social Media Surges And Nerves

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

And is that just a thing that you've I hope I've done that right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

We're working on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

I'm sure it's 19. We're both questioning our maths in fluffy creative. Maths? I can't do wow. But that's quite cool. And has that run through since then?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Yeah, so now I do most of my editions in a 19. Yeah, and actually, weirdly, I did an open edition of a really small print a couple of years ago and 19 sold.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

I know. I was like, oh, that's so weird. 19 must be the number.

unknown 1:03:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

19 is Sophie Derrett's number.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

Really weird. So yeah, and I just do 19s.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

And did that open as I say, open a market that makes it a bit more accessible for people to own your work.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Yeah, yeah. So and also because obviously most of my stuff is really huge, so yeah, it's not such gravitas.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

I mean I'm looking at glass acrylic here that's a metre and a half by a metre is bigger.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Yeah, I think that one is weighing. Yeah, they do. They are really heavy. But also, yeah, it was just like people were in their homes looking at their walls and wanting to do their homes up and stuff. So it was really good for a lot of artists, I think, that year.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

But then I remember, yeah, there was people, God, doing every sort of renovation known to man. So I imagine some bespoke artwork with the right people was.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Yeah, I think it was a lot of people that kind of had seen myself before and were thinking about it and stuff, and then COVID happened, and then they were like, Let's just scan it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

And also, like you say, when you open up a print run, people were like looking at these glass acrylics and going, God, I can't really justify that. I've not got a wall space big enough for that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

But I love Sophie's work.

unknown 1:04:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

So they get that opportunity to then have a piece.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

And again, from a business point of view, an economic point of view, for you that opens another avenue. Yeah. How often are you doing these? Because do you still do limited edition print runs?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

I haven't done one for a while, actually. I think the last one I did was a couple of years ago. But I might do one this year, I think, possibly.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

What holds you back from doing print runs? Is that something where you go, oh, that's an easy way for an artist to make money? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Rather than making these big one-off originals.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Yeah, I think because I don't make my series very often anymore, like I'll do one like every two years, like a new sort of painted face series. I kind of want to get the originals out there and get that series a bit established before I'll then make prints of it. Yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, that's probably why I haven't I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

Is that simply because the process is so in-depth?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

Because that seems like um some artists might think, God, she needed a series every couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

Yeah, I try to do more. At the moment, it's only every couple of years because I have no time.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

But um Shall we talk about that? Because how do you do that? Because now you're a mum of what, nine, seven, and two-year-old? Or three years? Is it two or three years? Yeah, nine, seven, and two. Nine, seven, and two, three children, all very demanding, I'd imagine. Yeah. Especially the two-year-olds. Yeah.

unknown 1:05:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

You're not exactly time rich. No. How does that work? Because I think other people, again, looking in, we'll go, oh, so yeah, she must be, oh, she's at this opening, she's at that opening, she's quaffing champagne, she's doing that. And most of the time that isn't the case, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

No. I'm always like art fairs and stuff. I'm like, uh, can I go? Can I go? Yeah, okay, I'm gonna go, like literally on the day, because it's so difficult to juckle all the kids and like where they're gonna be and everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

What do the kids think about mum being an artist? I think about the work.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

I think they think I'm a bit crazy. I heard my daughter talking to her friend the other day. Actually, about it, she's just kidding. Yeah, like for some reason she just paints herself, she just paints her face. I don't know why. Like, she's Oh, really? Is that the seven-year-old? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Oh goodness, sounds like she's got some sass.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

I know. But yeah, I don't I think they're just obviously they've just grown up with it, so they just it's the norm for them. Yeah, it's the norm.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

Are they creative? Are they artistic?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

Yeah, they are actually. The older two both are, but my son is really, really good at drawing, and like that, he is definitely a visual kind of arty person. And then my daughter is, she's really like more kind of makey, like she likes making things. She's also quite academic, so I don't know. Yeah, they're kind of arty, and then the little one I don't know yet. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

A bit young to be making any predictions there just yet. So come on then, because how do you find the time? Um what does that look like for you? Because we're in your studio now, it's a lovely space, but how often do you get in here?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

So I've got like three school days a week to be in here while they're all out at school and childcare and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:16

What do you find you're doing in those three days?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

Wow, I find it so hard to be like on a real timescale for things. Like I just I get in here and I'm like, oh my god, right now I need to be creative. I need to make something, I need to do this idea that I've been thinking about for ages, and it's so much pressure that I end up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Yeah, there's so much you need or should be doing. Yeah, you end up doing none of them because you're just paralyzed through paradoxical choices. It's like I could do this, I could do that, I could do the other.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

I probably get to the Wednesday and I'm like, right now I actually really need to do some stuff. So Wednesdays is usually a good day for me because I'm like, I've done nothing the rest of the week.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

Is it Parkinson's law? The work fills the time allotted. So if you're getting to the end of the day on Wednesday and you're like, God, I haven't produced any two hours now to produce something.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Yeah. Yeah, that's probably it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

And that makes more sense in terms of why you only manage to produce a series every couple of years. But I guess my question with that is well, what does Sophie Derrick's day-to-day look like as an artist?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:18

I usually most weeks will have stuff that I have to do. I'll be getting stuff ready for the next art fair or like sending prints off, and or the prints will be back here and I'll have to paint on them, and that's like a good few couple of weeks' work. If I've got a few that I'm doing for a share. So yeah, I do I have lots of the day-to-day stuff that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

To-do list is always there's a to-do list always there.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

Yeah, yeah, there's always something that I should be making or doing. But yeah, I uh the thing that I find really hard is having time to play around and do new ideas and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

Let's talk about that because your art is very defined in its style.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

How do you or do you want to step away from that? Do you want to experiment with something different? Okay, in an ideal world, you were time rich and you were just gonna go, right, for the next few months, I'm gonna experiment with this.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

Yeah. I have got so many ideas that I have had for literally 10 years now that I just haven't been able to make materialize because I've just had so much other stuff going on, and then they've built up in my brain, and then I'm like, I almost feel like I've done it because I've thought about it so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Oh, in a weird way. Are there any ideas you want to share, or is it completely different to the style that you're doing now, or would it be on the same realm?

Artist Support Pledge And Prints

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

I think I mean no, I I think it would be in the same kind of realm. What I'm working on at the moment is I challenged myself to make a hundred small pieces that are a bit more experimental and just trying to get these ideas I've had for so long out in like kind of experiment.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

The ones that were might go better.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

Yeah, so I'm gonna call them maquettes because a maquette is just like a sculptor's first little experimental piece, and then they will, if it works, they're gonna make it into a bigger piece. So that's what I'm thinking with these that hopefully some of them might be quite interesting, and then I could make them in uh bigger scale.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

When you say you're gonna make them small, they're just gonna be still small photographs of you that you work into?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Uh, gonna be in like little, like this is a little example.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

Little Oh, okay. So that's actually uh sorry, audio. It's a sort of a cutout of a little bit of Sophie's face rather than the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:45

Yeah. So they're gonna be like printing onto different materials and using different paint techniques and stuff like that. That's what I'm gonna try and do.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

Should we talk about paint techniques? Because at the beginning of this, we talked about how you were slapping your face with oils and acrylic, which to anyone listening, please don't do that because there are some toxic things in paint. But you've got around that now.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Being the master maker, because you make your own pigments now.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:10

I do make my own, yeah. Because I have always put on like a barrier product, so it's like a special effect makeup thing, which like seals your skin.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:21

And I would only ever use oral paints that have got like an AP stamp on it, which means that they've been tested for toxicity here, even though you shouldn't still be putting it on your face. Yeah, we still don't advise that anyway. So I have always been quite careful with it, but in recent years I thought I should probably take it a little bit further, and I now make my own paints. So I use non-toxic earth pigments, and then I use olive oil as a binder, and then put Vaseline in it because it looks exactly like paint like oil paint, it just gives it that glossy thickness.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

There's no limitations on the colour, you can still create ball colours and everything like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:03

Yeah, you can still get really decent colours for that are like non-toxic versions. More from natural pigments. Yeah, yeah. I think the more crazy, really bright colours are synthetic, but you can still get non-toxic versions of them. Yeah, I haven't had it tested, like my little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

But you've never had any problems with your skin or anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

But yeah, just emphasizing the point when you see Sophie's work, please don't don't just start throwing paint over yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

Sophie's very skilled, she's trained, and she's worked for many years to understand what can and can't do.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

So what has the last couple of years looked like for you in terms of sales, art? I mean, you're you're still doing art fairs with people. Yeah, still. Any tasks for any solo shows, or is that potentially off the back of your challenge to do a hundred maquettes that you might go, oh, here's another idea for uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

I have potentially got a Sailor Show next year with Degree Arts. I just need to make some work.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

So yeah, I'm hoping that's that a pressure, or is it one of those where you go, oh, the closer I get to this, the faster the deadline I have to make them?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Yeah, yeah, I have to have a deadline to do actually make anything. But yeah, I feel quite good at the moment in terms of I've got lots of ideas and I feel like I've got some things that could become a photo show. Whereas maybe a couple of years ago, I really was feeling a bit like what do you think has changed since then? My daughter's got a bit older. I think having the third one really felt hard in terms of being able to work.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

Oh god, I can imagine, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

That's really hard. And also, obviously, like the state of the world in the last few years has just been a bit mental and everything all that kind of stuff does affect. I mean, it affects everything, doesn't it? But like it affects people's ability to buy artwork because artwork is not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:58

Yeah, I suppose economic social situations that we're in the world, people are going, we're not gonna spend, especially not on a luxury such as art.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

So have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:09

Yeah, I think yeah, maybe 22, 23 was quite difficult, and I think that was like coincided with the all the economic stuff going on. Stuff, god, no. Which did really affect things.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:21

But still great that you've got those outlets through degree art, through the art fairs.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:26

Yeah, thank God.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

Um that's a really still a good relationship you've built with degree art, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

Over Yeah, I've been with them now since 2010, I think. But yeah, they they have been like really amazing champions in the market. How many artists have repped by degree art? I've got quite a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:44

But presumably coming up with them while they were being in UNC that's probably a bonus as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

Rather than now, if someone wanted to apply to degree art, you might get lost in an ether of lots of artists, whereas you were probably quite Yeah, I probably got in there at quite a good time, and then because they took me to the art fairs at quite an early time in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

Your work is so it's stand you you can't fail but recognise it. It's so crunchy.

Time, Kids, And Creative Headspace

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Yeah, it's pretty bold. Pretty bold, but yeah, no, they have been really good to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

So you're gonna start exploring some more new ideas, yeah. And hopefully that leads to something bigger. So potential solo show if you start making some.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

Yeah, if I actually make someone.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

Are you gonna give yourself the deadline or are you gonna wait for degree art to give you a deadline on what? We're putting the show on in six months' time. We need some work.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:39

Yeah, I think we need to discuss there. Sounds good. Because we've been like floating around. Oh, maybe spring next year. Maybe I don't know, it keeps moving because probably because I have not really I don't know where would that be? London or yeah, I think so. I just need to I just need to get my acting gear now and actually start making stuff, which I do feel like I'm a bit more able to do now. I feel like now my daughter's a bit more she's off at her child minder three days a week and stuff, and she's really happy there. So yeah, I feel like a bit more time. I've got a bit more headspace. Yeah. Because I think before, even though she wasn't there and the other two were at school, I would literally come here and just be like, Oh my god. This is just your quiet thing. Yeah, this is just like have a couple of hours of time to just sit and stare. Yeah. So I feel like I'm mentally a bit more in the game again. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:35

And you've just come off the back of the British Art Fair at the Sarchi Gallery. Again, another accolade that many people listening to this would go, Holy shit, Saarchi Gallery. Yeah, I know. It's incredible. Yeah. How was that? Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:50

That was really good. I'm I was so happy to be it there at the Sarchi Gallery because it's such an amazing venue, isn't it? It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:59

And I always loved the Saarchi Gallery anyway, but when it was the Starchy, just the name gives you a bit more social proof in the world of arts, don't you? It's rather than Barry's gallery down the road. It's the Saarchi Gallery.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

I know, it is really cool. I was really, yeah, really happy to be there.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Do you think that helps? People see that you do these things. The Saarchy Gallery, British Art Fair, all these art fairs. That's what I mean. I spoke to people and they're like, oh, she's a proper artist. Saarchi Gallery, British art fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

It's yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

You don't believe it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

No, I know, no, I do, I do. I think it is really cool. It is really cool. And I am, I don't know. That is probably the one where I've been like, oh, this is very cool actually to be showing work there at the Saarie, even though it's not like owned by Saarie anymore, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:49

I don't think I don't think so, but it's a lot of people. No, but it's still does it?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:53

It's still the British Art Fair as well. Yeah. But there, yeah. Royal Academy, British Art Fair. They do have some sort of gravitas attachment.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Yeah, no, they do, they do. And it is really good to be doing that those kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

Have you got any sort of goals or aspirations where you go, oh, if I get that, or I do this, or I have that show there, I will be. There's no disputing. I will be the artist that I say I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:20

I don't know. I think what would I really love to do? I would really love to have a show like in Berlin or New York or somewhere like somewhere a bit. Yeah. Or obviously there's like freeze, and these are all the biggies, but it's so interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Because there's always like how people go, Oh, I dream of being at Hampstead art fair. Or I dream of being the back of the affordable art fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:47

And then there's always another level.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

Yeah, there's always another level. I really doubt I'd ever get to Freeze, but I love Freeze.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:55

Keep talking like that to yourself, Sophie. You've got to have some belief in yourself. You've done more than I mean, as I said, you've probably done more in your career than many artists will ever get to do. And you're blushing and putting your head in your hands, and it's so funny because you really have.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

I yeah, I guess so. I don't know. Like you said, like you always you get to the thing that you've really wanted to do, and then you're like, oh, okay, what's next?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

Because once you reach the top of the mountain and you've got to go on another journey, it's the climb, not the pinnacle of the mountain.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:23

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I do sometimes think, oh my god, I can't believe I'm I'm doing this now.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

But when you're in it, do you still feel the I mean God, I can see you're the imposter syndrome rife for you, and I'm sitting there going, what on earth is crazy? Because I even said to you when you said yes, I was pretty happy when you said you're gonna be on the Creative Mind podcast because I've admired your work for a very long time. Oh, thank you. And in my mind, you're a quote unquote proper artist as well. I mean, we've had a conversation to go, no, I'm just a mum of three bumper, I don't know what I'm doing. But I don't think that's true. I think there is drive there, yeah. But I can imagine it's not easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

Yeah, I think it's I don't know, I think I've got like a weird mix of real confidence in myself and my work, and a drive to want to do it and get it out there. But then I've also got like this god, but don't actually look at me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:19

You're the subject, you're underneath all this paint, but then it's the character, it's not the character, it's the character, it's the yeah, what's the word it's the mask, yeah. It's the mask that you put on, it's the confident mask of all your paintings, but underneath the artist is still forever questioning.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:37

I have thought about this a lot recently that it's literally probably only been in like the last year or two that I thought about my work. Like I've always been like, no, it's nothing to do with me, it's literally just I'm just the canvas, and I'm just really in the last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been painting this. But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:55

But I'm anyone else ever called John and going this works more about self than you probably realise, and we put portray to others.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

Yeah, you're very humble, Sophie.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

You're very sweet and you're very humble, and you're very like, oh self-deprecating about your work. Yeah, and it could be a British trait.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

But as I say, you've smashed it. Yeah, yeah. But still, you don't feel like you've smashed it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

I feel like I have done a lot of things that as a young artist, like would have been like, oh my god, like I'm so happy with that. And I am so happy with that. But yeah, I don't know. I just feel like I need to do more, move on, do more stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

I think that's every creative thing. Surely we're always on to the Yeah. This is gonna probably sound like a bit of a rude question, but do you feel like you've rested on your laurels a little bit in the style that you've got? I know that's been a necessity because of children and family and life and all those things, but Yeah, I probably have a little bit in the last few years for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:54

People have always said, Are you ever gonna do anything different? And for a long time, I was like, There's still loads of stuff that I want to do within this idea. So no, I'm gonna continue doing this and do all these different bits and bolts.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:08

Do you think having a style is important?

New Experiments: 100 Maquettes

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

I think that people just like inevitably have a style. Whatever you do, like your drawing or whatever, like it is that is just your style. And I think your style can come out in different ways and different genres of art and stuff, and I think it will always you can always see a style in things in people's work. But I guess it it kind of is important in a way.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

In terms of people recognizing your work, in terms of your social media presence, it's almost like I can always see a piece of yours and oh yeah, it's a Sophie Derrick. Whereas if you suddenly started changing your style now, would that be a risk?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:51

It probably would be a bit of a risk, but is that a risk you might want to take? Yeah, I think I'm the my ideas I've got are probably a little bit of a departure, tiny bit, not completely different, but yeah, I've got some things that might be might look a bit different to this.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

I I asked the question because I think a lot of the time we're like as creatives, especially in photography, you've got to have a style. That's what the person will book you for. Whereas I come from a world where my advertising photography, it's always someone else's brief. We want it to look like X. Right. And my thing has always been a sort of recreation.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:30

I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but I just wonder whether, yeah, in some respects, we are, as creators, bullied into you've got to have a style because that's how people recognise you. That's where you're fit in the gallery, that's where you'll fit with that gallery or that curator or whatever. Whereas the likes of say someone like Damien Hurst, I know he's built up his name, but he can do a sculpture, he can do print runner flowers, he can do a dot painting, he can but he's a business.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:56

That was only me as well, once. I had a little interview there. Really? Damien Hurst.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

Go on then. Didn't get it. Didn't get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:02

I didn't get it. No. I was terrible at interviews back then. I was like, doesn't he like come into the studio and stuff? And they were probably like, get this one out of here.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

She's a can't really fangirl if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:12

Yeah, I know. So anyway, sorry, that wasn't it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:15

What other modern contemporary artists do you look at? So that was a bit of a random out in the blue crest. I was just thinking about Hearst and looking at an article about Frank Albach and all.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:27

Are there any other major influences?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

I mean, I haven't seen the Jenny Savile show recently, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

Yeah, I loved Jenny Savile. I think those young British artists were a huge influence on me at an early age.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:39

I know these people don't really rate them, but I'll show like when I was studying, we went to see and I saw Tracy Emin's bed in person.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:48

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:49

Didn't get it at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:51

Now I'm older, now I've been through some stuff, I go.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:54

Uh yeah. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:57

Yeah, I remember going to see the Sarchy show with them all in it, and I was just like, this is amazing. Like I didn't know art could be like this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

And it really was one of the Gary Hume, Chapman Brothers, Damien Hurst, Tracy Emin, all those people. It was.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:14

Yeah, I I just loved all that work because I just felt like ones that I loved was Cornelia Parker's Blown-Up Shed, Rachel Whiter, her concrete buildings and stuff, Richard Wilson's that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:27

I think it was a re-surgence of sort of conceptual art.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:31

It was like conceptual art, but it was really visually amazing at the same time. Because some art you were like, I don't really get it. But this their work, I was like, this is just incredible. There's so much, it's amazing to look at, but there's such a idea to think about behind it, and it's kind of really got me.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:50

But it was time in the UK as well, wasn't it? Everything in Bingham was cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:55

We were the centre again. London was cool, everything was cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:59

Yeah, it was really maybe not so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:03

No God, which is sad, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:07

But yeah, so these were all like big influences because I think it just you know opened up this whole other showed you what could be done. Yeah, and that you can do mental things.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

And it's like I think that's important for artists to go, just yeah, you can. Yeah.

unknown 1:26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:23

You want to be able to paint yourself in bright blue or whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Yeah. So yeah, those were a big influence. And like people like Lucy and Freud, all those kind of painters. And he was like such a painterly tactile.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

Yeah, it's all the as they say, the Jenny Savals, the Freud, you can the how about you can see the brush trace, you can see the movement, you can see all of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:45

Yeah, that's what I've always love. Um yeah, yours is almost a lot more poly than theirs. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a observation. It probably isn't now, probably not so much back then. Yeah, a few years ago it was a bit more rough and red. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I've got very polished style. Old age.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:08

But also in how you present as well, I think it needs that polish. When it comes on glass acrylic, there's a certain element that Yeah, it's just slick.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:17

That sounds like a bit of a weird word, but the material's slick. Yeah. The work's slick.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:23

Yeah. But that's what I'm gonna do with these little my little hundred pieces is and you set yourself a deadline on that. The deadline keeps changing.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:33

You need to ride something on the studio wall. The deadline is this.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:36

I've got all my things here then like this, do this up.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

It's looking at post it notes, but yeah, not meeting of your own stuff, not meeting any of your own self-inflicted.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

But I have actually started doing something which is like a big deal for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:47

Yeah, starting is the biggest step on all the time, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:50

So I've just actually ordered loads of different material prints and stuff. So anyway, yeah, I'm thinking I'm gonna go and try and go back a little bit to the more rough, yeah, not so polished kind of freer. Bit freer. Yeah, just a bit more experimental and kind of get all these things out of my brain. Because it's actually really annoying me.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:13

Yeah, I'm sure when you see it in image, so much going on in the brain. But like you say, you've got to give yourself a bit of a break, Sophie. You are a mum of three, and yeah, to have the prolific career that you have and to let the listeners know that it's not all plain sailing. There was full-time jobs at MS, three three kids pulling you from left, right, and centre, but yet it's still doable.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:37

Yeah.

Non-Toxic Paints And Process

SPEAKER_01 1:28:38

Yeah, it is still to be an artist, to be a creative, to excel, to be a quote unquote proper artist, Sophie.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:47

Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, it definitely had ups and downs. It's not all been like anything amazing times. I mean, there has been some amazing times, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

Has there been a moment where you, apart from when you came out of the Masters, I mean later on potentially, has there been any times where you've gone on a fuck this, I'm not doing it anymore?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:08

Um there's been loads of times like that where I've just been like, I'm just gonna go and get a nine to five job somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:16

But deep down you've never done that because at the core of you as a creator.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:19

Yeah, I just always think maybe there's more that I want to do with this. I don't feel like I I'm not done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:28

Are we done? Have we I think we've spoken about a lot, haven't we? Is there anything that we haven't spoken about that you think we should have done? Some key element that I've missed out in my research.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:38

I feel like we've just spoken about a lot of things. Yeah. That's what we want. Just a nice friendly chat, two creatives having a chat about process, about ideas, about creative journeys, about hurdles a lot of the time. I think most of the audience want to hear the hurdles. God, I had no idea. Sophie, juggling three children, a life, being a mum, being out of that environment, struggling with your own ideas, imposter syndrome, doing universal stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:06

Yeah. I think I do think being an artist is really hard sometimes. Like my husband is always like, Sophie, this is the best job in the world. Stop being so like negative sometimes. Just get on with it. But I'm like, Yeah, but sometimes it has is actually so hard because Do you think you're a negative person or a positive person? I don't, yeah, that's I shouldn't have said that because I'm not I'm not negative, but sometimes I'm just like ah, this is just so hard to I think it's probably just my Personality type, like I just think about things for so long.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:39

And I just do it. That's a creative thing, then I think creative people have more imposter issues, you know, or and also more issues, more issues because the issues that we do create in this crazy prediction machine that is our brain are often more creative.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:57

I just think it's interesting, Sophie, because I say before we'd spoken and I think I just from the outside, naivety looking in, you just go, holy shit, she's smashing it. And the reality of anyone, any creators, it goes, like we said, in peaks and troughs. Sometimes you have to focus on the art, sometimes you can't focus on the art because the two-year-old vomned all over. Yeah, vomiting.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

I think that's the thing, it's like frustrating. That's why it's like you have to dedicate so much time to being an artist, and if you can't do that, it's like painfully frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:31

And also, like we said, you have to develop so much time being a social media content creator as well. Now, when actually most of us would really just like to go, I just want to make the art. Be great if someone else came and did all the social media stuff for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:45

I know, I know that's the thing. There's so many different parts to being an artist, now you have to.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:51

But I think that's the really interesting bit, the perceived idea that most people looking into you, Sophie, would go, oh, she's got her shit together, she knows exactly what she's doing. But like we said from before we turned the microphones on, we're all winging it.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:01

Yeah, absolutely all winging it. Absolutely winging it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:05

So, Sophie, we've got a bit of a closing tradition on the Creative Noeland podcast. We asked you for some sort of inspiring quote that sits with you, and also someone in your network who you think would be an interesting guest to come on the Creative Noeland podcast in the future. Okay, in any order you like.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:23

Um, okay. I'm gonna do the crate first because I feel like this really fits in with what we've been talking about a lot about me, anyway. The position of the artist is humble. He is essentially a channel by monja. Okay. What does that mean for you? I do feel like that kind of fits with my work quite a lot because I am like covering myself up. I don't know, it's funny, isn't it? Because it's a duality, because I am there in the work, but then I'm like covering myself up and putting myself out. I guess trying to be a little bit humble, and then yeah, I'm literally the channel. Yeah, deep and comfy.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:04

Yeah, you are the art, you are the channel, but yet you're still hidden. Yeah, and I think when people see your work, they'll be able to read the subtext between that. Yeah, I like that. Mondrian. Okay, and what about someone in your network who you think would be an interesting guest? Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:22

I am gonna say T people. Cool. I've spoken to you about this before. I'm gonna say my husband. Talk to you about your husband, Ollie or Depart Logistics.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:32

And what is Depart's Logistics?

Markets, Fairs, And Saatchi

SPEAKER_02 1:33:34

He so he delivers and installs artwork. Yeah, so he is opposite to me. Like I'm just in my studio on my own. He's literally seeing artists every single day and galleries and frame and every loads of people meeting. He knows so many artists. Yeah, so he's like my ear to the ground on what's going on in artwork. That's cool. Like what artists are doing, what artists are saying. Do you think that's been a benefit for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:06

Yeah. How long have you and Ollie been together?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:10

Like I think it's eighty more long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:13

And he's been doing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:15

He's been doing this for five years?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:18

Yeah. So basically, when we moved from London, he moved here, he started up this business. What was he doing before? Lost an estate agent. Was he? Yeah. But he's like very arty, and he probably should have gone and done art at uni, but he did like marketing, something random.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:34

And then what five years ago we hit COVID and all those sorts of times. So then did he have a bit of a realisation? I might the love of my life, my partner, she's immersed in the art world. I'm actually probably more creative than I think I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:48

Yeah, yeah. And he just really didn't didn't say he didn't anymore. Yeah, when we moved back here, he's that his business up and now we don't, but that's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:57

I've got a bet he's got some interesting stories. Stories that he's not probably allowed to tell us though, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, that'd be very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:08

I feel like he could give like a good little insight into the art world point of view.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:13

Okay, that'd be very interesting. Who was the other that you were considering?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:16

The other one, I was gonna say, was who I disloved and I love like watching Journey. It's Charlotte Keats. Okay, who's Charlotte Keats? She's pretty mega.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:27

What sort of what does Charlotte Keats do?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:29

So she does, it's very different to my work. It's she does these almost like dreamlike interior painting.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:37

But she's got a real style. She's got a real style. It's very architectural as well. Yeah. But she has just done the she got this job with Herm. Oh, wow. To do the window display thing. So they like almost made a 3D one of our painting. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:01

Yeah, but she shows up.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

Oh, you could.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:05

Cool. Huh? You never know. Maybe we go for both. So I think they're they'd actually be both be really interesting, but in both very different ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:13

Yeah. Charlotte, she's on that mega art. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:18

I'm sat here talking to you, Sophie, going, Sophie's a proper artist, and you're looking at Charlotte going, Oh, Charlotte's a proper artist.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:24

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:25

Okay, that says a lot. She's a real proper artist. Great. I think done. We've we've spoken about a lot of stuff, Sophie.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:31

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:32

I just want to reiterate, thank you, Sophie Derek. You're a proper artist. So thank you for coming on our podcast and telling your story and sharing your journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:41

Welcome, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:44

Thanks for listening to the Creative Noahland podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Noeland shop. And here's the bonus. When you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So, before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So, thanks again for listening, and until next time, explore, inspire, and create.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:30

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way. And so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question what do I desire to do?