#0029 CLAIRE HILTON - CREATE ART NO ONE SEES!

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

What's the difference between art therapy and having a creative practice that feels therapeutic? 

As it turns out, quite a lot—and in this episode, art psychotherapist and practising artist Claire Hilton helps us understand those differences.

Claire has always been creative and understood the benefits of creating from a young age as a way of processing some of the feelings related to her father being diagnosed with a brain tumour.

With this understanding, Claire went on to study Fine Art and then a Master's in Art Psychotherapy, turning her love of creating and her love of people into something that has a real impact for the clients that she works with.

For many of us, art is a way to express something or communicate a feeling, often with a finished piece in mind. But art therapy isn’t about creating a final outcome. It’s about connecting with ourselves, exploring what’s happening beneath the surface, and focusing on the process. As an art psychotherapist, Claire witnesses that process and helps join the dots of what may be going on internally for her clients.

In this episode, we talk about Claire's creative journey, her path to becoming an art psychotherapist, and how she balances that with her own art practice.

We also explore why there’s no such thing as good or bad art, why people with an existing creative practice may struggle with art therapy, the bravery it takes to create, and the value of making art no one else ever sees.

Claire also shares tips for beating creative block and, a big one for many of us, how to overcome the fear of things not being perfect.

Check out the links below to both Claire's psychotherapy work as well as her personal artwork while you're listening to the podcast, of course!  

But for now, get comfortable and let's find out why maybe we all need a little bit of therapy.

Hope you enjoy this episode of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

CLAIRE HILTON ART THERAPY WEBSITE: https://www.creatingspacesessions.com/

CLAIRE HILTON ART THERAPY INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/creatingspacesessions/

CLAIRE HILTON ART INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/misshiltonink/

Transcript

Media Myths And How Meaning Is Made

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Nobel Am podcast. What's the difference between art therapy and having a creative practice that you find therapeutic? Well, it turns out quite a lot. And on this episode, art psychotherapist and practicing artist Claire Hilton helps us understand some of those differences. Claire has always been creative and understood the benefits of creating from a young age as a way of processing some of the feelings related to her father being diagnosed with a brain tumor. With this understanding, Claire went on to study fine art and then a master's in art psychotherapy, turning her love of creating and her love of people into something that has a real impact for the clients that she works with. I don't know about you, but art and creating has always been a way of me trying to say something or express my feelings, but often that comes with a finished or final piece of work in mind at the end. But the end goal of art therapy isn't about a finished outcome. It's not about the final piece. It's about connecting with ourselves and self-exploration. It's about the process of creating and about making connections. And in Claire's role as an art psychotherapist, she's there to witness and, in some ways, join the dots to help get underneath some of the understanding of the process of what's going on for her clients. In this episode, we discuss Claire's creative journey and becoming an art psychotherapist. We discuss how she balances that with her own personal art practice. Why there's no such thing as good or bad art, why people with an existing creative practice may actually struggle a little with art therapy, how it takes commitment and bravery to create art, and why we should all be making work that potentially no one will ever see. Not only all that, but Claire also gives us some tips on how we can all combat that dreaded thing, creative block. And one that particularly resonated with me: how we can overcome our fear of everything not being perfect. You can check out the links to both Claire's psychotherapy work as well as her personal artwork while you're listening to the podcast, of course. But for now, get comfortable and let's find out why maybe we all need a little bit of therapy. Let's get into it. What is art therapy, and what is a common misconception that you think most people would have about art therapy?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I think there's been quite a few examples in maybe popular media where art therapy or art psychotherapy, which both mean the same thing, is depicted in a really reductive way of using the artwork without the person who made it being present to think about what it might mean. And it doesn't really work like that. It's using it as more of a sun or on the right means this, or because the house is in this position, it means that. Usually in art psychotherapy, you're thinking about what the image might mean, but with the person that made it, because it will be significant to them. And I think if you remove that, then you're missing a really big part of what art psychotherapy is.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

I see. So someone in art therapy perhaps does a picture, a painting, a poem, and then it's not analysed with that person, maybe to make sense of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

You would sit and look at it together, but I think in a lot of media contexts, when they look at art therapy, they will take a piece of artwork away from the art maker and then go, look at this, this means this.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

And it that that kind of interpreting isn't what we do. Quite often things will appear in a piece of art that you're making from your subconscious. And so we're interested in making those connections in our conscious brain. You can only do that with the person who made it in front of you as a joint exercise together. You can't reduce that by taking the artwork away and doing that as a separate exercise and using things just by their symbolic nature. Doesn't work. Okay. Because that would be generalizing, wouldn't it? It then wouldn't be the meaning to that individual is lost. You're then using general knowledge of symbols, general kind of is that what it is, like symbolism? Um there is a lot of symbolism in it, but there are equally every individual carries their own symbolism and their own the thing that I think I am most interested in is story and people's stories and how that has impacted where they are now and how that comes through in images of significant events or things that matter to that person in that time. If you ask someone the same question three months apart, they'll answer really differently. And it's the same with making a piece of artwork. That piece of artwork, when you sit down at that desk three or four times over the period of six months, you couldn't make the same thing, even if you tried. Because you're always in a very different place. Things that are happening for you will be different, the things you have access to might be different, but the things happening that you're thinking about, the things that you've experienced in the recent time, it you can't really repeat that specific circumstance. So timing is also really important for art making, but also in therapy.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Yeah. Both Wow. I think we're gonna have to go much more detailed in this throughout the podcast because it's quite a complex topic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

So Claire, you're an artist as well as an art psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

But when you were younger, what was the thing that influenced you down this route, do you think? Creativity and art psychotherapy.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

I think, although sometimes it feels like a bit of a stereotype, it's one of the only subjects I really liked at school. I think academically I wasn't really entused with a lot of other subjects. I found them quite difficult. And also, whilst I was at school, there was a lot of things going on at home with my dad being diagnosed with a brain tumour. So it just meant that I struggled maybe a little bit with concentration. And so the art room, the art class, was one thing that I really valued and that I really utilized, probably in the best way. And so that was a big part of that journey. And I also vividly remember my dad bringing home kind of glass paintings and things he'd done with some staff when he was away on respite for us for the weekend, and just being able to bring something back that he had done and being able to give that to my mum, and something about what that represented and how he had experienced that whole kind of process really sat with me for a really long time about how beneficial that had been in that situation. And if I'm really honest, I don't know that was with an art therapist. I wouldn't necessarily call that art therapy, but I think that's what sparked my interest in the value of the creative process.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So, within that, was there a moment that you realized that art wasn't just something that you did, it was a way of coping?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of the things that I was doing in my art making when I was a lot younger that was processing a lot of the feelings I had about what was going on. And I think it was a really useful outlet to be able to have that and just really be able to hone in on that really valuable aspect of expressing yourself in a much different way, which a lot of teenagers will find challenging anyway, and a lot of people grow into adulthood having a similar challenge. And I think that's a kind of echo into the work that I do at the moment when I'm working with adults where you're thinking about really trying to express yourself in a more genuine way rather than what a lot of people can spend a lot of time doing, which is suppressing what's going on. And that it has a limit. You can't do that forever.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

So, did you feel like when you were creating, it was a release? It was a way of you getting Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Absolutely. I felt it was really important to do. I've always drawn, I've always painted, I've always had something on the go in terms of pulling things together and messing around with stuff. I've always had a creative practice, pretty much. I'd say the only times that hasn't happened is when I've been sucked into the world of work and maybe it's been on the back burner for a little while, but it's always come back around. I feel like it's a bit of an ebb and flow situation with everything that I'm doing with my work.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

And that creativity as a child obviously extended because you then went on to university and did fine art.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yes. So I went to college and did a foundation course to then go to university and do a fine art degree. And then I didn't at that point probably really know what I was going to do with it. And then I went straight into applying for my art psychotherapy masters. And at that time, they didn't accept my application and said that I needed to go away and get some more experience working with people, which I did. But I would say for a period then of maybe three years or so, I almost forgot about wanting to do that master's and qualifying as an art therapist and that goal because I dropped into working all the time and having a role. But I was working with adults with autism and I really enjoyed that kind of role working and supporting people in supported living.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

So you didn't come out of university and go, I want to be an artist or such.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

No. I think I've always seen it as part of my identity, and now I feel really lucky that I've managed to weave that into also part of my job. But I don't think at that point that part of was fully realized in what I was doing. So it was very much a personal practice that I'd continued with outside of work, and I didn't really do a lot with that in terms of people seeing it, exhibiting it, which I've been far more active about in kind of the last 10 years or so. But I mean, at that point when I was working in a job that didn't have that creative aspect, it was very much just me doing that at home.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

And was the decision to apply for the masters, even though you didn't get on it, as a result of your dad's?

From Fine Art To Art Psychotherapy Training

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah, I think it was something that I was always interested in. And I didn't quite know what the application of that looked like, but it was the value of how being creative can have benefits to individuals and being able to be a facilitator of that. So that kind of came through, and I've recognised in myself from my own creative practice that it's beneficial and trying to continue to hold that space for others is a really important aspect. So, as much as I say that I forgot about it, I obviously went back and applied again a number of years later and was then successful. And then the Masters in Art Psychotherapy is a very intensive course, so it's a two-year course, including your placement. So then you do your placement around places where you are living, and so you're very much immersed then in that. But I was really interested in the course at Derby because as part of that training, you have a studio space. So you're making artwork and continuing in your own art practice whilst you're doing all the psychodynamic psychotherapy training as part of that same qualification, and some universities that do art psychotherapy training don't offer that. So that was one of the specific things that I've done.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

I was gonna ask that. So is it essential to be a practicing artist to be an art psychotherapist?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, so the art psychotherapy is a protected title, which is HCPC registration. So it's the same registration as someone like a physiotherapist or a nurse or things like that. Yeah, and as part of that, there are certain things that we sign off every year to say that we are doing. And one of those things is a continuing creative practice in terms of keeping up on our own continual professional development and being able to learn new techniques, new how to apply them, and then be able to transfer that into the work that we're doing with the individuals that we're supporting. And I also think that works both ways. So, quite often, if I start working in a specific way with somebody that I'm working with in therapy, I might end up exploring some of that in my own creative practice. It flows both ways in terms of the materials that I might use or some of the themes that I might be thinking about, or some of the ways that I'm approaching what I'm working with. I've certainly recognized across my creative kind of endeavors, I work in kind of small pockets of I'll do one thing for a little while and then I'll move into something else. And I've never had one creative style. I don't work in one way because of the way that I adapt the approaches to the people that walk into my therapy space.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

I was gonna say, presumably you're getting so many inputs from other people as well. I think that's something that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Because I'm very aware of the fact that if you were to put all of the artwork that I've ever made in a room, you could probably think it was done by half a dozen people. Because there would be certain themes, but like they are all very stylistically different and they aren't necessarily all tied together by one thing. But I I like that because I wouldn't want to feel in my own practice that I was tied to doing a specific way or a specific thing and restricting myself in that way. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah. And before you got on to the masters, they said you needed more people experience. Yeah. What does that mean in terms of an art psychotherapy masters? What do they mean by like actually hands-on? We want to see you doing art with people.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

I think it was more just working with people in general because I was coming straight from my degree. And so, in terms of having a role which was person-facing or working with people in general, because it's all about relational things with other people and the dynamics that you have in the room with others. And so having that element of working with individuals, I get it. You do need it. And because I wanted to come straight from my degree, I didn't have that background of people facing working with individuals directly, which is a lot of things that you have to experience to digest and process how that's going to work in a different context. So I understand. I kind of yeah, so I understand why that was why that was done.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

And the job that you were doing with young autistic people, did you say?

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah, so I was working at a supported living accommodation for adults with autism. Doing art with them or just after my degree, I was working there and just as a support worker, but there was a studio there where they could go and they would make art and they would paint and things, and it would factor into their kind of day to have time slots in the art studio to be able to do what it is that they wanted to do. And I guess that that was probably what brought it back into the front of my mind again: was like, oh yeah, I wanted to do this, but a bit differently.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

So, did you take a more hands-on role in that when the art studio? Not really.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

No, it was just I was taking people in the flat that I was running, I was taking people from the flats to the studio and championing its use and kind of watching and seeing how it was being used.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

But not actually showing them any practice or anything, even though it's not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

No, that wasn't no, that wasn't part of my job at that point. There was times when we would do creative activities in the flats if there was downtime, if there was some budget to be able to buy some materials, we might do some creative stuff, but it wasn't identified as part of my job. At that point, all I knew was I really like working with people, I really like doing creative things. How can I bring these things together in an impactful way, in something that I would find satisfying?

SPEAKER_02 15:35

And like you said, it must have jogged your memory in terms of, oh well, I didn't know. I think so. But I suppose day-to-day life of being in a job, sustaining suddenly future aspirations can get lost a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah, absolutely. But I think that was probably part of when I started thinking about, oh yeah, I did want to do that, and how am I going to do that? And maybe enough time has passed now so I can reapply. So I did end up reapplying, but I was also working for the NHS as an artist in an artist studio.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Can you say more about that? The NHS has artists in artist studios.

Building People Experience And NHS Studio Work

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Well, it's showing my age. I think they used to more than they do now, but it was a kind of community resource where adults with mental health issues who were attending kind of services. It was people were coming in and you would make art with them, you'd provide the materials, you would provide the space to be able to really let them do whatever it was that they wanted to do in terms of art making, but there were artists there to also be there making to support them to be developing their own creative practice or just doing those images within that space. And then there was also a parallel organization, which was a charity called the Art in Minds Foundation, which I later ended up managing. So the idea behind Art in Minds Foundation is when people were being discharged from the art studio, because obviously it's an NHS, so it's a time-limited resource, those individuals would then transfer to go into groups in the community where they would meet, they would carry on with their own creative projects and things like that and socialise together and all the rest of it. So those community groups ran for a number of years until 2017, when I'd been managing the organization for four years or so. And then unfortunately, because of funding, we had to close. And I now know that the art studio where I was an art instructor, that was my job title, is also no longer there. So a lot of these things have changed a lot. But this was all kind of part of my journey into by the time I qualified as an art psychotherapist in.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

So was all this, sorry, I'm the timeline. Was all of this running alongside while you were doing your masters?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

So this is just also what I'm trying to figure out in my head. So I qualified as an art psychotherapist in 2014 and I was already managing art in minds by then. I'd already previously worked in the NHS as an art instructor up to the point where I applied for my master's, at which point I couldn't really work for the art studio anymore because I just didn't have the time.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

So I was going to hospital and working on some of the wards and doing art, delivering art in hospitals and things like that with patients as part of my master's then, because it's a full-time master's because your placement is two days a week on top of your studying. So by the time I qualified as an art psychotherapist, I was already managing the charity. So running art groups in the community, managing counselors who were also doing counseling for the individuals that were coming. And that organizational aspect of we organized an art exhibition every year in October for World Mental Health Day, and that was like my whole job.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

And you still had time to do a master's at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yeah, I did. I did do that. Wow. I was it was busy. It still was busy.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Yeah, so it was great. It was really great. And then unfortunately, like I said, that organization closed in 2017. And then I opened my private practice and went freelance, and then was freelance up until just after the pandemic.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

What does being a freelance art psychotherapist look like? Because presumably, then you've got to take on other job titles, marketing, accounting.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Finding your clients, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yeah, and also finding funding. So I did a lot of grant-funded stuff. Okay. So I used to run it. I used to run art groups in community settings for well-being. So I called it the well-being studio, and it was funded by the National Lottery. And it was a rolling six-week program where every week we'd introduce a new material and some time to play with that to see if people liked it. And the aim was trying to support people's individual independent creative practice. So it wasn't to join a class for everybody to have the same outcome. It was about trying different materials and increasing people's confidence in their own creative practice to be able to continue with it at home. And also meeting people. And the venues were really important because individuals with really high anxiety or agrophobia and things like that would meet each other for coffee as well in between. And so it had a real longer-lasting impact rather than just attending the group and having a specific outcome. It was like they were creating their own practice, they were doing more things at home, they were meeting each other to have coffee. So it had a kind of extended impact, like a bit more of a if you're going to drop a pebble into a pool of water, like a bit more of a ripple effect. So it was a more established thing. So quite a lot of that was working for charities, working for community organizations, finding funding for those different things. So it sounds like it's much more of a group thing.

Freelance Practice, Groups, And Funding

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Did people come one-on-one as clients to you as an art therapist? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah. So I had an office as well where I'd see people on a one-to-one basis for therapy. And then the groups were more creative therapeutic well-being. So I wouldn't necessarily class that as therapy.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

And the people coming one-on-one, presumably they've got underlying creativity that they think they want to explore. Rather than going to say a conventional therapist, why choose an art psychotherapy?

SPEAKER_01 21:38

So actually, that's not much of a consideration that people bring, to be honest, quite often. I think what art psychotherapy is really good at is utilizing art materials as a mode of self-expression and not relying on purely verbal communication. And I think sometimes that's why people might be recommended art psychotherapy because they've had counselling before or they've had other sorts of talking therapies and they didn't feel like anything really shifted or was processed or anything really changed. So that might be one reason for people to find art psychotherapy. If people do have an established creative practice before coming to art psychotherapy, it can actually be more of a hindrance than a help.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Because you're stuck.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Because you can be really fixated on making something that looks aesthetically nice or pleasing. Which, if you're making art as an artist, quite a lot of the time you might have the outcome in mind at the very beginning that somebody else is going to see it. Whereas in art psychotherapy, what we're trying to do is use the materials in a uniquely truthful way. And we're not really trying to censor that, to try and just look at it together and say, so what was it like to make that? We're very focused on the process.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

I was going to ask, when you sit with someone making art, are you watching for particular things? You mentioned symbolism, or are you watching the way that the client is reacting?

SPEAKER_01 23:05

It depends very much on what the context of that person is working with or through. So sometimes I might make artwork with the person that is in therapy, we might make something together. Sometimes they might make artwork and I will also be making something separately so they don't feel like they're being watched, and it helps them to feel like they can use the space in a more authentic way. Sometimes I might be sat processing and thinking and watching while someone else is doing something. It very much depends on the context of what's going on. So, for example, if I am going to make something in therapy, it's important that the emphasis and the focus is on the person in therapy and isn't flipped around to the therapist because then they're not getting what they need from the space. So I don't want to take up a lot of the space. I would like to leave that space open so that the person coming to therapy has the space that they need. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah, completely. Like you said earlier, sometimes when you're spending too much time with people, the stuff that you're witnessing comes into your practice. You don't want to, in your job, don't want to influence someone with, oh, this is my style of work. And then they're it's say not authentic as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

It's more about being conscious of it. When you say you don't want to influence somebody, of course we don't want to, but it's inevitable. Everything we do and everything we don't do all makes a difference to everything. You also have to lean into that and say we can't totally eliminate our influence.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah. So when you're with someone making art, what are these things you're looking for? What are the symbols, the symbolism that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

It's incredibly broad. Like it could be anything. But also it's what's significant and symbolic to the individual that's made the artwork. So you're not talking generally. We're talking probably more about how many times something might appear in an image, might be significant to them, and they might not consciously be aware of it. So you might be curious around why something keeps appearing two times or three times in different images throughout the time that we're working together, but in a way that you're curious about it, not that it has to mean something, because it's about trying to make those connections.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

And is that your role to witness it and try and make those connections? Yeah.

Why Artists Can Struggle In Therapy

SPEAKER_01 25:20

So in art psychotherapy, we are facilitators and witnesses for the process and what's going on to be able to reflect that back to the person working with the materials to think about that together, which is why there's a difference between having a creative practice which you find therapeutic, which is great, and lots of individuals benefit from that. But that isn't necessarily the same as the dynamic in art psychotherapy, which relies on having another person to be able to mirror things and be curious with you to help get underneath some of the understanding of yourself and the process and what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

So, like you said, it's a triangle, it's you, the creator, and the art.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

And so if you think about it, if an artist is making artwork for exhibiting to be seen in public, the great thing about that is that's open to interpretation, right? People take what they want from it. You walk up to something and you go, Oh, that reminds me of something, or that's entirely that's a great interaction to have with a piece of artwork.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

But is that is that different between being therapy and in that case the end result is some sort of performative show? Go back to what you said about an artist coming in with their original practice, they're going to obviously have the preconceived idea about what they want. It's not inverted, commas free creativity.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

If you're coming into therapy, your end goal will be self-exploration and figuring something out. It won't be the images themselves. So, quite often, by the time someone's coming out the other side of therapy, for however long the duration they've been seeing a therapist is, the images themselves probably don't really have any resonance anymore because they're really process-based. It will be like, I remember the day I made that, I felt like cross, or I felt hot, or I felt stressed, or and it will probably be evident in the image from the marks on it, or how big it is, or how small it is, and how full the piece of paper is, all of those sort of aspects. But it wouldn't necessarily be something that you would go back to after that and want to be keeping. It's in the process, it's a very like movement-based thing. And after the therapy has finished and you're no longer in that therapeutic relationship with your therapist and the images in the space, they sometimes don't have the same power. And that therefore is very different to things that you would put up in a gallery space, things you would have on the wall in a studio. A portfolio, but it serves a different purpose.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

So there is a big difference between art therapy and creating art in a kind of mindful therapeutic way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I think a lot of artists use art in the terms of helping them to process their existence or think about things that are challenging. Quite often, especially contemporary work, can be to evoke something in people. That's great. That's a great way of using visual imagery, but it's very different.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

It's more about the response and the process.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, and you're thinking about when you're conceiving the piece, you're thinking, how is someone else going to feel about this when they see it? In the context of therapy, the only people seeing that image are you and your therapist.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Have any of your clients ever gone on to be, say, artists and use any of these images or move forward in a slightly different way as a result of art therapy? Not as far as I'm aware, but I guess it's which goes to show it is all about the processing of those things.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yeah, yeah. But also I guess it's a very different relationship. It's a very different. I probably don't know a lot about people that have come to therapy with me after they leave, because that's the end of the relationship that you have with them. So in that sense, it definitely makes an impact. And I'm sure, especially from the well-being groups and the studio groups and things like that I've run before, I'm sure that's had an impact. But yeah, I don't really know.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Is impact important to you?

Process Over Product: Roles In The Room

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah. I think wanting to make a difference is important, and wanting to do things that I think have value, wanting to support and facilitate creative spaces that I see have value is important.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

And how does that translate into your own work? Because that must be a tricky balance. Presumably, in your job, you're using your skills. But as an artist in your own right, like you said, there's things that you want to express, there's things that you want to emote. Is that a hard balance? Is there sort of like a censorship of the work that you maybe create in the job and an uncensored version of Claire as your own artist?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

There's ways in which I work in the room with somebody else in therapy that mean that I'm still able to witness and be a part of their creativity and I'm still paying attention to what's happening in the room. I think the difference in your own creative practice is, and I'm sure a lot of people will resonate with this, that when you're in your own creative flow, you lose all concept of time. And you're really in that and making and doing and playing and all of those things. You couldn't do that in a space with someone else that I'm giving attention to and want to support and help, because I need to pay attention. So there is certainly a different way that I interact with the materials when I'm aware that I'm in a session with somebody, as opposed to my own practice where I will lose a day, half a day in the studio. Playing around with things, messing, and I don't censor my own creative practice at all because that's why it's there. It's there for me to do whatever it is that I want to do.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

And what is that? Outside of the art therapy, what's the work that you enjoy creating? You said earlier that you've got lots of different styles, presumably because you're like we said earlier, when you're in that situation with your clients, you're getting so many inputs from them, but you've taken that away and gone, oh God, that guy did something beautiful with that black and white.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

But again, you are using a kind of it's good or it's bad slant on how you're thinking. So you just said that it was beautiful, something doesn't need to be beautiful. Do you see what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, talk to me about that because you've said before, there's no good, there's no bad art.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah, in art therapy, we're using it as a communication tool. So how something makes you feel is a really valuable response to pay attention to. But the black and white of something is good, something is bad, something is beautiful, something is ugly. Stick with that in terms of helping you feel curious about what it might mean or what it might be, but not in the same way of, oh, I just don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

So, how do you translate that into your own work? Is there good or bad work when Claire's creating?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

There is work that I share and work that I don't share. But I think that's different from what's the marker for that though. Presumably you must whether I want to share it or not.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

But whether you want to share it or not, is that a marker of whether you think it's good or bad? No. Okay. I'm just trying to get to the bottom because in your work, I understand there's no good or bad art, but presumably your own internal biases, you sometimes must look at a piece and go, oh But also I might go back to something two, three, four times and keep adding to it and changing it.

Exhibiting Vs Therapy: Different Purposes

SPEAKER_01 32:17

And sometimes I don't know that something's whether something's finished or not until the last time I work on it. But that can be over a really long period of time. So in my own practice, I work with a lot of found objects, I work with a lot of natural objects, I work with a lot of things from antique shops and bits and bobs and broken things that I've found, as well as collage, as well as different types of paper. And it's very much about almost like organizing those things and putting them together so they make a bit more sense. And I think it's a bit like how in therapy, like as you've said, I'm taking a lot of different elements of information and I'm almost like processing them and organizing them. And so my own making is very, I will be surrounded by things and I'll just be getting things and putting them together. And I'm like, that makes sense in my head. But sometimes I've made sculptures before, I've made lots of crucifixes. I'm really fascinated with faith and religion and gender and the natural world. There's all of these themes running throughout all of this. Ritual is important, just as it's important in therapy, to think about how we process things and funerals, for example. And so it is all related, but I work in a very different way in my own studio. I couldn't have the sheer amount of things that I have in my studio in my therapy space. Because for other people, it would be totally overwhelming to be sat surrounded by all of that stuff. But I like it. And then the things that come out of that are curated in like boxes or trays, or so I make a lot of assemblage work, but that isn't very portable. So a lot of the time, if I'm making not in my studio, it will be simpler, it will be kind of pieces of paper and cutting things up and photographs from magazines or books or words from books and things like that. But it's always a combination of different things.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

And what is the role of art to you in this sense? Is it a way of processing some of the stuff that you have to deal with in your day-to-day job? Is it for exhibitions?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Is it I suppose all of that?

unknown 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Some some of the things that I make I exhibit, some of the things that I make are on walls in coffee shops, some of the things that I make never see the light of day.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

It's very much I guess what I'm trying to get at is that you've Do you have that balance as well of to be recognised as an artist, but balance with actually it's just about the creating and me processing my stuff. Because presumably after a day at work, you might have had quite a heavy day doing what you do. So is it your cathartic process? Is it your release?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Is it I suppose when I've had my own studio space, I've seen it as working. I'd use like a working day to go to my studio and be in the studio all day and be making stuff.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Is that part of the fact that the HCPC requires you to be a practicing artist still?

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Yes, but I think it's also a big part of my identity because I think it's really easy, as we talked about before, nearly benching the whole art therapy concept and getting really drawn into work. Being creative does take a certain amount of commitment and energy and commitment to your practice to be able to make the space to do that. But I think sometimes we can get really caught up in needing specific materials or needing a specific thing to be able to do something worthwhile or something worth doing. I often get people saying, Oh, I don't want to waste the paper or I don't want to, but that's what it's there for. To be used, it's to fulfil its destiny, I think sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

How does that go back to artists that fear of perfectionism? If an artist comes to art therapy, they're almost limited by their own kind of wanting to be perfect. So I'm not gonna waste that perfect bit of paper, but then also paralysis of fear, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

And that blank page is terrifying to some people, and yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

But I suppose in art therapy, do you not find the blank page terrifying?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Not really. I think I can make anything out of anything because that's what I'm used to doing. And if you stop worrying about that, it just becomes easier.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

How do people stop worrying about that, Claire?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

By flexing that creative muscle more and more and more and not starting from the basis of other people are going to see this.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

And I think that's really important, isn't it? And we've we spoke about that prior to the podcast about how we do create with an end goal in mind, but perhaps we should all be adopting a bit more the art therapy process about creating for creating's sake.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, it's really very process-led. There are also times when I've been part of an artist's collective and I've made work around a certain exhibition title and a theme or whatever. So it works all of those ways. Yeah. Ebbs and flows and changes. It depends what the context is of the making in terms of how you work with that and interpret that.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Do you find it easier to practice your own work because you've got that financial and creative outlet in your job?

Style, Influence, And A Flexible Practice

SPEAKER_01 37:31

I'm really grateful that I make art at work. I do that in therapy sessions, but I also do that with my colleagues. I also do that in our development meetings. We make art quite a lot to process and think about questions together, and we're a really creative bunch. That's just how we process and sit with stuff. So I am really grateful that's part of my work.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

When you create art at work, is that Claire the psychotherapist or is that Claire the artist? Does any of that come back to your practice?

SPEAKER_01 38:04

To me, it looks like it's mine. I can tell. But as we said before, I work in so many different ways and I've done so many different creative things that essentially it's just me because I'm one person.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Okay, here's a question for you. This is a bit more arty, but do you think artists need a style?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

I have always thought it's a real shame to pigeonhole yourself. I would really hate to think I couldn't do a thing because that wasn't what I did. I do whatever I like. And that's the greatest thing about it, because I can, because that's what creativity is. It's that self-expression just because, and not in any set format. I think it's when you start imposing the self-imposed rules and expectations, we start tripping over ourselves, and then that stops what something being made which could have been incredible.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yeah. And I wish more listeners of the podcast would realise that. I think we're also some ways bullied into going, you've got to create in this style, you've got to do that for the whole career. That's what people will know you for, that's where the gallery will put you. And it's not the essence of a true creative, I don't think, because I think as creatives, you might write, you might paint, you might draw, you might take photographs, you might collage, you might sculpt. Okay. Perhaps not a style, but do you think it's important to artists to stick through a theme? Or is it all about what that person is trying to say in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

I think it's important for artists to be genuine to what they want to be doing. I think all of these things is it pro gives a boundary or it gives a line to follow. I think you need to be true to your own practice and whatever it is that you want it to be.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Okay. Listen to Claire, create what you want, create it from your heart. Because I genuinely believe that. I've felt pigeonholed. I've felt boxed into my photography career for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

But it's it's a challenge, especially when you're thinking about gallery spaces or exhibitions and stuff. But what I tend to find is if somebody says to me, we're going to do an exhibition on this theme, I've probably got some pieces that might fit that theme, and then I might make some extra ones and they all go in the exhibition. Do you know what I mean? Because my practice is never-ending. I'm making things all the time, and I keep most of them, and they're all around, and it's really varied.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

And talk to me about your studio space, because it's a bit chaotic.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

It doesn't exist at the moment because I've just moved. But my studio space is very full of things. It was lots of different papers and half-finished collages and lots of sketchbooks and lots of mannequin parts and bits of jewelry and glue guns and spray paint and yeah, everything and anything. But I've had studios in different places over various times, and my studio spaces have always been really important to me. And I'm working towards setting up my next iteration of a studio space. But I also think at times it was really important to be part of a collective and working around other artists and have that influence as well for that period of time.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Can you say more about that? Because I think artists do work a lot in solitude and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

So I I was in a studio, we all rented rooms in a building where we were all in and out and working out of there for a year or so. And it was just interesting to work with other people and see how their work works. And I got into printmaking for a little bit because they were doing a lot of printmaking. And I I like those external influences coming in to challenge my practice a bit. Inputs. Yeah, to think about why do you always do it like that? But also you, as an artist, can have a similar impact on other people. This is how I do it. I'd never thought of doing it like that. Or, oh, you're so free, and that was so quick, and just like working around other people and seeing what they put together and working on a theme and challenging yourself is a great way to develop your practice.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

When you're working in the collective, did some of your transferable skill sets from being an art psychotherapist come across, or you sat in the studio one day and was like, oh, that artist could do with being a little more free, or was there ever any temptation to use your other skills to sort of go, come on?

SPEAKER_01 42:19

No, not really. Open up a bit, or I guess I start I did some workshops and things before, and I've done that before, where again, holding and facilitating creative spaces for people to come in and be creative for being creative's sake for well-being, kind of just doing something that's therapeutic. And holding that space is a challenge because quite often people want to come to a space where they're being taught something. Because that's how we expect and experience like an art class.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yeah, I I want to be able to draw a person at the end of it, I want to go home with a person. Whereas in what you're doing is no, no, no, that person might look like a charcoal scribbly mess and have no real semblance of human form. But actually, if it's processed some of the demons within you.

Holding Creative Space Without Prescriptions

SPEAKER_01 43:02

But that's the art therapy part. But what I'm in this context, I'm thinking more of just about holding space to be creative. What do you mean when you say hold holding space, just allowing people just having a space with smart materials where people can play and do something? Because as adults, we miss that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

And it's the number one question, what shall I do?

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, pretty much. And some people respond really well to whatever you like, like having been given that permission. Other people find that terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Well, it's an open book, isn't it? It's endless. Are there any small little prompts that you give people? You can go, well, what about think about you said a word, a theme, a something or something.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Sometimes I will call a word or a theme out if that's what somebody's asking of me. But I think I'd really like to try and encourage people to be able to sit with the not-knowing and do it anyway. Because anything I come up with, even off the top of my head in the moment, will be what I've come up with. It's an influence. Yeah, it's and there is obviously then that bias to be like, well, this person said I should do this. So then there's the expectation, and then these layers start appearing.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah, so you giving someone a starting point almost inadvertently, well, it shapes the direction, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah, it can do. But I do understand that in some contexts, people just aren't being used to having the time and making some decisions for themselves or aren't expecting that, or actually have decision fatigue and they're just like, I just want someone else to tell me what to do. Fine, it's how people turn up in a space, it's very different. But I see a value in holding a creative space that people can use, however, it is that they would like to use it. I don't personally find a benefit from like a art prescriptive art class where it's like everyone turns up, follow the steps, everyone leaves with something that looks very similar. I want a much more personalized and expressive space, which I recognise the benefit to, but it's a concept that some people can find a bit challenging.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Definitely. Sometimes having some restrictions, sometimes having those boundaries that you can work in are useful, but they're not in this situation. You're trying to be fine.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Well, it's every individual, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Yeah. But I guess I'm interested because I wonder whether when I create as well, I've already got a final image in mind, which I think most of the time I do.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

And especially when you're thinking about media and advertising and things like that, the inevitable final product is to be seen by other people. That's the point of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah, and that's where I'm I struggle a little bit with the art that I create because I've I've got so much work that's probably never going to see the light of day. But why?

SPEAKER_01 45:37

But then why does it need to?

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah, again, great question. It's that idea of who is the art for, what are you creating for? But this is where I'm interested in you because of my own limitations in my mind, where I'm like, no, no, I've got if I'm creating this, it's got to be for an end result. What's the point in making a photograph if no one's gonna see it? What's the point in drawing a picture if no one's gonna see it?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, and that's where I'm I'm that these are my barriers, and I'm interested in well, I suppose I place the value in the spaces and the process and the practice.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

And I'd really love to do that, but I really struggle with that. And I think a lot of people that, especially people who've made it their career to be in art or creativity or design or whatever it is, oftentimes it is a brief, it's an end result. The client wants this image, even a show. Oh, the theme is this. You've got to okay, there's an end result there. I think that's I mean, it's much more childlike, isn't it? How I remember myself used to be creating for the sake of creating.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, and I think a lot of the time if people struggle with creative block, it's more around putting something in place that stops them doing something because they're concerned about it not meeting a standard or being a thing. It's partly about motivation, it's partly about making that space available, but it's also about too much concern over the end, which you haven't got to yet.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Comparison, yeah, culture.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Comparison and all of those other things.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

What are people gonna think?

Blocks, Perfectionism, And The Blank Page

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Elizabeth Gilbert wrote an amazing book called Big Magic, and it's about creativity, how ideas find you, and all it's a bit hippie-like, and I'm aware that I go that way occasionally. But there's something for me about just like giving it a go. And also the art materials that we use, there's something in art therapy where you're working with them. Sometimes the materials will refuse to do what it is that you want them to do.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

And when you talk about materials, it that's important because that can dictate a tone, a mood, anything. I mean, I'm thinking if someone's grabbing a load of black charcoal, oftentimes that could be dark or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

But it's also difficult to control. So somebody might not go to that because they're worried about making mess.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Or they're worried about getting things on their hands, they're worried about things transferring.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Does that give you some scope about what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah, certainly where people are most comfortable and whether that is something that they want to change, or whether they want to experiment with different things, or whether they don't, whether it's more about what's in the image, or whether it's more about the process of making the image and how that feels.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

So you're looking at everything like how adaptable that person is.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Because every time we sit down to make art, it's like a risk. Because there is a risk that we're being vulnerable and that we might end up with something we don't like. That's the whole process, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

And so going through that with a person there with you to support you and think about the nuances within the image, within the process, and some of the things that are influencing you at that point in time in your life can be really enlightening. The images never fail to shine directly on what needs the space. That's they just do.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

But what I would always say to people is if there are parts of your experience or your thinking or an experience that you're trying to keep out, that's unlikely to be possible. Because the image making it uses all of your parts of your subconscious to bring the things into the forefront of your mind that are important and that need to be sat with and seen. And so if someone is thinking about entering into art therapy, but also keeping some stuff behind a fence or door or in a box or however you want to think about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

That door might get kicked open.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

It because it's a very, it's a very, it's a full-body process. We're using both of our hands, we're using lots of different parts of our brain as part of the process because of using both hands. So we can connect with a lot of stuff that we maybe don't plan to. It's a very exploratory thing to be doing, which is why it's to be done with somebody qualified to be able to help and support that process.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Yeah, that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Would you like me to give you a kind of general context example? Yeah, that might be helpful. So, for example, art psychotherapy is quite useful when you're thinking about post-traumatic stress disorder or a trauma that's filed in your brain in a way where you can't recall it to verbalize what has happened. And in that scenario, it might be that you might find the most benefit from using clay because you're using both hands and you're tapping into your subconscious to think about the whole somatic experience rather than just talking. So, in that way, doing that with a therapist might help you to connect those things together. And quite often, if you're using both hands, you can start connecting with when you were a child and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Is there stuff wrapped up in this in like a flow state where you're almost doing the doing and not using the brain as well?

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Or yeah, sometimes I think some of it's instinctual, some of it people can be really surprised about. Some people walk into the art therapy space and go and smell the air. They can smell the paints or the crayons or whatever, and that reminds them of school. And there's always going to be connotations of what was that like for you? Do you like art class? Did you not like art class? I was really fortunate because my art tutor was great. And that could have been so different. And those first experiences of creativity have a real impact, whether we like it or not. And so they will impact and influence what's in the room. And for some people, that's the starting point. But yeah, we hear a lot, I'm no good at art.

Materials, Mess, And What They Reveal

SPEAKER_02 51:22

It's that thing when you're a child, everyone who wants to draw a picture on the whiteboard. Yeah, everyone puts their hand up as you get progressively old. No, no, no, no. Because of some of those self-imposed limitations, all what are people going to think? This might not be any good. It's that.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Yeah, because all that needs to happen is you do a drawing of one thing and someone looks at it and goes, Oh, that's a great elephant, and oh, it's a horse. That's all that needs to happen for somebody to internalize. I'm bad at that and I won't do it again.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

And that's the total opposite of where we are in art therapy, is we're thinking about far more. No good or bad. Yeah, no good or bad. What is organically happening? Let's have some space to connect everything together, sit with our body, think about what's happening, and use the materials as you see fit. It's not about skill, it's about having the willingness to lean in to an experience of using the materials.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Love that, Claire. And I think for listeners of the podcast, we've got so many different artists, creatives, entrepreneurs, goal-driven people. We do sometimes get hung up on the end result, on the it's that whole thing, is it? Is if we could all live in the present, it would be great. But unfortunately, we ruminate on the past and we're anxious about the future and all those things.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

That's a really tough place to start from, though, if you're already thinking about the end. It's a really difficult place to start from.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

It is a difficult place to start, and I think that could be the root cause of most people's imposter syndrome, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

We're all creating with an end goal in mind, with an aesthetic in mind.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

There's different layers. So there's our own expectations of what we're producing, which is the only thing that we can really control. And then there's the society and the external validation that we're assuming or wanting from people seeing the work. So there's different levels there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

And it's how the work is shared and seen, and if the work is shared and seen. Whereas in art therapy, it's a very psychologically safe place where you're saying we're going to look at this together. That's all its function is. We're using it as a tool, we're using it as something to help us to navigate where we need to go. It's not going to end up on someone's fridge at the end of the day. It's just different. Yeah. But it's a challenge to think about that in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

And again, this is why I find this so interesting because I think a lot of us artists and creative would benefit so much from freeing ourselves up a little bit from that end result. And it's very purist and very ideological, and I love that, but harder to achieve, right? Again, it's a muscle that needs to be built. Free-flowing creativity that's just about creating.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

And just being able to drop into being creative, like a thing. That's the thing. It's flipping into I've got some time to be creative now. Am I gonna spend an hour fixating over whether I've got the right paints? Or am I just gonna sit at this desk and see what I've got?

SPEAKER_02 54:21

It sounds like you find that flicking of the switch quite easy from work mode to artist mode.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Yeah, I think so, but it's because I've done it for a long time. And I do think it's something that you can build the strength in. If you do it regularly, you will find that easier, I think.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

But sometimes in our adult lives, we don't get a lot of that space to do whatever we want to do or play or whatever it is in that sense. We lose that, as you've said, like when we're children. So of course it's a challenge when someone says, Yes, you can do what you like in this space, or yes, these exciting coloured crayons are for you. Really? Yes, they're for you. Do what you like with them.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Do you see that sometimes in adults that light up in their face with that? What I can do anything.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

I can't do uh yeah, and whatever you and I think the materials, in a sense, in terms of how inviting they are, how exciting they look, is an important part of art therapy. Is it's almost like a menu of things. And for some people it will be a bit intimidating and a bit scary, and that's okay. We're just asking that people give it a chance, give it a go. We're not expecting that people understand everything from the beginning because if they did, they wouldn't need to be there.

How Images Surface What Needs Seeing

SPEAKER_02 55:33

And you mentioned creative practices about trying to make sense of something. What are you trying to make sense of with your work?

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Everything, all the time. The world is on fire, and so we're just trying to exist, aren't we? We're trying to figure out where our own space is in the world, why we do the things we do, why we're interested in the things we're interested in. Like, I think ritual is a thing that grounds us quite a lot as human beings. We need that, and the act of making things special has been around since caveman times. Why do we do that? Because it's very human.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

Um, I mean humans are wired for creativity.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think we sometimes don't see the value in it, and it's sometimes harder to rein in. Because I think there's a big part of creativity that is also problem solving. And if creativity is lessened and people don't I mean, when I did my degree, I didn't know what I was gonna do with it. I didn't have a plan. And I'm very aware that now that's a bigger risk for people to go and do a creative subject when it costs a lot more money and you maybe don't know what you're gonna do with it. But the value that it brings to businesses, companies, workplaces, life by having that resilience to be able to problem solve with what you have is a skill that then gets lost.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

So you think creativity is an act of bravery in some respects?

SPEAKER_01 56:55

Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of creative people have that resilience and have that skill set to think about things in a different way. But because our brains work like that, we forget that it's an asset.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Same rule.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

So just seeing things from a creative mindset is a very unique lens.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

But is that as a result of the starving artist narrative? As creatives, we've all been, oh yeah, it's great, do your little passion project, but you're never gonna make any money as an artist, you're never gonna do this as an artist. Because we've been told good, bad, whether you're making it for an end result or not, that creativity is not a good route for the workabee in the world.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Well, I think I was thinking about it more of like just coming up to solutions to problems day-to-day from a creative lens, like thinking about not only why things are done that way, but if they could be done differently.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

But again, I don't think people often see creativity on a day-to-day as problem solving. We do.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

They go to their default, oh, I'm not creative. But we all are.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

And I think that it applies in other aspects of your life too. I also sometimes do quite extravagant cooking or decorating or moving stuff around and just feel like I'm a creative person. You were gonna chop me in half like a stick of rock, probably what it would say in the middle. And it's more about being part of me than just a practice.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Yes, definitely agreed because of this. Like we spoke about earlier, being pigeonholed. I spent 20 plus years pigeonholing this idea that I'm only a photographer. Don't get me wrong, I loved it. But I've always been more than just a photographer. In fact, the very first post on my Creative Nobel on social media says, I have never been just a photographer. It's a creator, it's a creative.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Yeah, some of it's a mindset, I think.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

I think a lot of it's a mindset. This is why we need your help, Claire. That's why you're here. You're here to give us the tricks of the trade, to help us be a bit more free. And I think that's what I'm interested in. Looking at myself, not talking about anybody else, my own problems are a lot of the time I'm so blinkered in the thing I want to create. And it takes away from some of that freedom.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:04

And I'd like to maybe, and I'm sure lots of the listeners would like to know how we can free ourselves up a bit from those limitations or from those restrictions maybe we put on ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

I think it starts from an awareness of where it's coming from. It starts from an awareness of are these real expectations or are they things that I'm putting on myself? What is lost if you sit in front of a piece of paper, a canvas for however long and just engage in a process and what do you lose? Nothing. You will feel probably better from having expressed something. You can still feel frustrated, of course, and kick it to the floor and get across with it. That's a whole process, isn't it? And it's about the awareness of what are the expectations that I'm putting on myself, which are just stopping me from doing and experiencing and being.

Trauma, Clay, And Somatic Connection

SPEAKER_02 59:58

And does that go back to what we said earlier? Most people's limitations are what will people think? Comparison.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yeah, because if you're approaching art from a point of view of this is going to be looked at by however many people, and that that is a massive sliding scale as well, isn't it? To the people in my lounge versus the tape modern.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Yeah, very much so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

So if you start from that point, of course, it's terrifying, but just start from a point of doing and sitting in process and enjoying what you're doing, then you wouldn't lose anything. Time.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

That's it. Time, and that is our biggest asset. It and enjoying the passage of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

So there's something I think is inherently rebellious about creating for that reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Okay, can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

Because if you're carving out time to do something that could be seen as a waste, and you're saying actually no, it's important and doing it, regardless of physical outcome, I think that's an incredible basis for practice. That's maybe not seen as the most productive and efficient use of time. So what? Do it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Agreed. And I think being a creative as a whole is a rebellious act these days.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

So go on then. If someone is feeling perhaps like I am, like I need to free myself up a bit. Are there any exercises or things that people can implement from your skill set of an art psychotherapist that would maybe help get them out of their own head a little bit about process and result?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

I think during the pandemic, there was a lot of fixation on the things we could and couldn't do because we couldn't leave the house and we didn't have the things that maybe we needed for different projects and things. So I wrote some blog posts about art materials you can find in the home. So I started looking into making different shades of ink with coffee and things like that. And just thinking outside the box and not letting yourself be stopped by, I don't have that specific brand of paint. I don't have, I mean, if you're saying you don't have a ruler, what else do you have that's got a straight line on it?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

All of those things and try and stop those kind of obstacles. Because then the only things that are in the way is probably you. Because if you can utilize whatever you have around you to do something, if you have five minutes and a pen and the back of an envelope, you can do something. So actually don't let that be the thing that stops you. Because that's the worst thing, I think, to be like, I can't do it because I don't have this thing. You can do anything with anything. It's again, it's about mindset and thinking outside of that box and pushing through that bit, and then all you're left with is, oh no, maybe you know the rest of it might be you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Yeah, well, I think I think a lot of the time the problem is us.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

I mean, oh, I've got a pen and a piece of paper, but that's not gonna cut it. Good enough. That exactly, exactly. That's not gonna be good enough. So, okay, I mean, that's a materials thing. Have you got any exercises or or ways of approaching that grip on perfection? I think that I've definitely got, I'm a perfectionist. So everyone take a side seat for a moment. This is me and Claire now. Help me, Claire. How do I break out of my perfectionism when it's not necessarily about tools?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

I would say just start, just make a mark, just do a thing. If you need to start with not a blank piece of paper, rip it up, screw it up, flatten it back down, see what marks are already on it, throw something at it, sample over it, do whatever you need to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Ruin that perfect piece of white paper before you start on it. Yeah. And then start on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Or if the blank piece of paper is the thing that fills you with fear, use a coloured background. Start with something solid so it doesn't feel like vast space. Because the white piece of paper is like the stereotype starting point, isn't it? So start on something that isn't that. Find something with a pattern, find something with a colour, combine two of them together to just make a square. So it's not blank anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

That blankness of white, it's so limiting, but also so clean. So you don't want to put that dirty mark on it. But actually, if you just went, oh, here's a white board that I'm now going to paint black, and then I'll start on that, that's a bit different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Or like you say, screw up the paper and yeah, just anything that makes it feel less perfect and finite, or whatever it is that's stopping you, just yeah, get past that bit.

First Memories Of Art And Confidence

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Is there anything that artists and creatives, because I know a lot of them are listening, can look at in their own work that they could maybe? I know you've said you've got to do it with a trained professional, but I'm just interested in the things that we spot because I I see patterns in the work that I create, I see themes. Is there anything that creatives can spot in their own work that might be signals for them or signs?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

I feel like creatives with a regular creative practice kind of know themselves quite well. Yeah, I agree. And so I guess there will be themes within what people are making, and there will be things that people are drawn towards that that's cohesive identity.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

Okay, so not in terms of practice then. What if someone's uh feeling a bit trapped about some of those things that they may perhaps want to express but don't have the bravery to express? Does that go back to make it so it's not for anybody to see or potentially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

I think again it comes back from that starting point place, doesn't it? It what is the worry? Is the worry about what people will think about it if they see it. You don't need to show people. Personal private creative practice is very valuable, and nobody needs to feel like they have to show everybody everything. Of course, that's a really vulnerable place to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

I guess it's because we live in that society now where everyone shows a bloody dinner on the plane.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

And I can see as an artist, yeah, yeah. I can see how as an artist you could think I can't do a big oil painting because I generally work in watercolour or something, and I've always hated that concept. So I've specifically I go through lots of phases with lots of different things. But I would hate to think creatively that somebody would stop themselves doing something because it wasn't what they did.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:20

Yeah, I read something and we've spoken about it before. An artist was talking about how his artistic ego didn't dictate the medium.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

And I thought that was quite interesting. He's like, I've got a message that I want to get across. If that means I have to do a sculpture to say it, so be it. If I have to do an oil paint, if a collage, if I have to throw elephant shit at a canvas, whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

But for media and advertising and all of those other things, when you don't fit into a pigeonhole, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

And that's where my limitations come in on myself, and that's why I'm interested. And these are only questions that I'm sure other people want to know, but they're questions for myself, really. How do I free my own practice up, Claire? By taking it. Do what you want to do instead of doing what you feel you should. Yeah. And don't think about it with a result of anyone seeing it. I think that's so important.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

Because it doesn't mean that later on you wouldn't, you can't decide to share it with people. But starting from that point where it's going to be seen.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

And you're so right, Claire. I just think back to some of the work that some of my photography work that's actually done quite well in competitions and things, it was made as a way of healing. Yeah. And then after I'd hear it, I go, oh, that's actually quite good. Maybe I should enter that into a competition.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

We hold a lot of things about our experiences, good or bad, in terms of the experience and how we internalize that in our body. And making artwork and being creative involves a lot more than just any part of us, uses a lot of and so a lot of somatic feelings, a lot of feelings in our hands and things in our brain and thoughts. Making stuff just encompasses all of that, which is how we experience the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that right now.

Bravery, Ritual, And Creative Identity

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

It makes sense to me that making things can help to process trauma, it can help to process our own experiences, it can help us to learn more about ourselves. And some of that process may or may not benefit from being in a room with another person. Some of that could just be your own practice.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

Going back to what we said originally, the difference between art therapy and creating work for it to be therapeutic.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Yeah, absolutely. Your own creative practice is something that you can move in any direction that you want to. Whereas in therapy, quite often we're very goal-focused and we're thinking about certain things, certain events, certain things that want to be processed and out of the body. So that's that's got a very specific focus and focal point. Whereas maybe as an artist with a practice, you don't necessarily know what you're doing, but does that mean you shouldn't do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:42

I like that. I think that's a pretty good little soundbite we've got there, Claire.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Is that a good place for us to bring this all to a bit of a bit of a head?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

I think there's so much interesting stuff that we've spoken about. Stuff that clearly I'd never thought about because I've got myself a bit confused within this podcast about all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

This was always going to be a very confusing thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:01

Because it is. The original thing I hadn't thought of is like, oh, I create art in this cathartic way. Okay, that's very different now, I understand, to using it as therapy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:11

Which is why I've always kept my art practice separate from my work practice, but inevitably they're going to overlap because I'm only one person.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:21

So really it's about my practice as a whole, which encompasses work.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

Okay, I've got one last sort of question before we close this out, maybe, Claire. What have your clients taught you about art that potentially your fine art degree and your master's degree in art psychotherapy didn't teach you? On the job, what have they taught you that you've taken away?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

It's an absolute privilege to be witness to their resilience and their commitment to the process, and being part of that just repeatedly proves to me the power of creativity most days. It's an incredible process and a privilege to be part of that in individuals' lives. It's taught me a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Amazing. Claire, we've got a bit of a closing tradition on the Creative Noel Am podcast. We ask people for a quote that resonates with you, and also someone in your world, your network, that you think might be an interesting guest to come on the Creative Noel Am podcast in the future.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

So the quote, the particular quote that I like is a quote from Joseph Boyce, which is everybody is an artist, which I just think resonates with me a lot because of all the things that we've discussed today. Somebody that I am very privileged to be friends with, an incredible female artist called Lexi Strauss, who is the Glastonbury worm that does the painting workshops at Glastonbury Festival and has an incredible practice. I'm very privileged to have some amazing creative stories. I'm very I have lots of friends that do clowning and comedy, and I've got some incredible creative friends. But yeah, Lexi Strauss would be the one for me. Amazing for a future episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Is there anything you would like to leave the listeners with, Claire? A little motivational, you got this, free yourself up, do the creative life, live creatively.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Just don't be too hard on yourself. Do it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

Perfect. I think that's a wonderful place to end it. Claire, thank you very much for doing the Creative No Land Podcast. It's been hugely interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:33

No worries.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:33

If not a little bit confusing for my tiny brain.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Thanks.

Practical Ways To Start Anywhere

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Thanks for listening to the Creative Nobeland Podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Nobeland shop. And here's the bonus. When you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So, before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So, thanks again for listening, and until next time, explore, inspire, and create.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way. And so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question what do I desire to do?