#0030 HANNAH MILLER - WHAT'S YOUR PURPOSE IN LIFE?

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

Now, this might seem like a massive question, but are you living your life with purpose? 

Maybe it's something that you haven't even thought about until right now, or maybe you think it's about finding that single grand calling or once-in-a-lifetime revelation that's reserved for the lucky few who have just managed to get it all worked out well.

On this episode, we are joined by the wonderful Hannah Miller. An author, a businesswoman, and a strength coach who specialises in helping to guide people to live lives with more intention and purpose. And she has literally written a book on it.

Studies have shown that having a clear sense of purpose improves not only our mental and physical health but also boosts our wellbeing, lowers our stress levels, and even increases life expectancy. 

So Hannah's here to help. By explaining why purpose isn't just reserved for the select few and why it's not about a single grand calling, but that finding our purpose can happen for anyone in any situation, as long as we're willing to do the work. 

We discuss how purpose is something that builds, something that evolves and shifts over time when we understand who we are as people and our values. It's something that's already within us based on our talents, personalities, and experiences. 

But I get it. It all probably still sounds a bit daunting, right? 

But that's why we also go into some of the practical and actionable steps in Hannah's book, 'The Purpose Pursuits: Eight Steps to the Life You've Been Searching For.' Steps that we can all use to try and uncover or build a sense of purpose in our lives. That's shaped by our own unique strengths and passions. 

You can check out the links to all of Hannah's platforms, including the link to buy the book, while you're listening to the podcast, of course.

But for now, sit back and let Hannah explain why purpose isn't just about discovering what you are here to do, but actually about who you are here to be.

Hope you enjoy this episode of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

BUY IT NOW: 'The Purpose Pursuits: Eight Steps to the Life You've Been Searching For.' 

HANNAH MILLER WEBSITE: https://www.hellosidekick.co/

HANNAH MILLER INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/hellohannahmiller/

Transcript

Meet Hannah Miller And Her Work

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noah Land Podcast. Now, this might seem like a massive question, but are you living your life with purpose? Maybe it's something that you haven't even thought about until right now. Or maybe you think it's about finding that single grand calling or once-in-a-lifetime revelation that's reserved for the lucky few who have just managed to get it all worked out. Well, on this episode, we're joined by the wonderful Hannah Miller, an author, a businesswoman, and a strength coach who specializes in helping to guide people to live lives with more intention and purpose. She has literally written a book on it. Studies have shown that having a clear sense of purpose improves not only our mental and physical health, but it boosts our well-being, it lowers our stress levels, and even increases life expectancy. So, Hannah's here to help by explaining why purpose isn't just reserved for the select few and why it's not about a single grand calling, but that finding our purpose can happen for anyone in any situation as long as we're willing to do the work. We discuss how purpose is something that builds, something that evolves and shifts over time when we understand who we are as people and our values. It's something that's already within us based on our talents, personalities, and experiences. But I get it, it all probably still sounds a bit daunting, right? But that's why we also go into some of the practical and actionable steps in Hannah's book, The Purpose Pursuit, Eight Steps to the Life You've Been Searching For, that we can all use to try and uncover or build a sense of purpose in our lives that's shaped by our own unique strengths and passions. You can check out the links to all of Hannah's platforms, including a link to buy the book while you're listening to the podcast, of course. But for now, let's hand it over to Hannah to explain why purpose isn't just about discovering what you're here to do, but actually about who you're here to be. Let's get into it. Hannah, what am I here for? It's that deeply human question, and that's why I think you and I we're gonna have a great conversation because I think this is where our purpose aligns. Yeah. I talk about in Creative No Land of all the time about how we're here to try and inspire people to do the stuff that inspires them. And well, you're the expert. You've just written a book called The Purpose Pursuit, Eight Steps to the Life You've Been Searching For. So it seems I'm throwing my hand in this with no experience whatsoever, so I thought I'd get the expert on to come and talk about purpose.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

No pressure.

Purpose As Evolving Threads

SPEAKER_01 3:06

No pressure, Hannah. But before we talk about purpose, you've had a diverse career.

unknown 3:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And you started in marketing.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

And you actually just told me that you had a very creative start and you're quite the master musician. Well, at Thunder Grand. But what was the moment when you realised, and I'm probably going to word this really badly, what was the moment when you realised that helping other people find their purpose was part of your purpose?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, that is a great question. So I have had a diverse career, and I think as people listen to this story or any of the bits today, I hope that they can pick up nuggets that are relevant to their situation. And I think it wasn't so much that I landed on a, oh, my purpose is to help other people find their purpose. I would say that there have been scenes throughout my life that have had different assignments. So maybe that's why for me, that understanding of your personality and who you are is so important because that's going to stand the test of time. You may find yourself in one era of your life, a stay-at-home mum with your children, another era, you're working in a corporate sector, another bit of your life, you work in the charity sector. For me, there are some threads that you can pull out from the different things of your life. So even if I go back to the school days, there were things about who I was that I think are still relevant to me uncovering like the person who I've been made to be and the contribution I make.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

In what way?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Well, good question. I've always loved other people, seeing other people grow and develop. I've always really enjoyed that. For example, I became an art when I was 10 and I loved having I loved having nephews and seeing them grow and develop was important to me. I also was a piano teacher when as a just to earn some money really, but I did like the experience of being a piano teacher and seeing like these little ones. I was only teaching little ones, seeing them be able to do something that they couldn't do before.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Because you've just told me that you got to quite a high level with piano, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, yeah. My mum encouraged me to take up the piano when I was young, probably from that classic parental perspective of I never had this kind of opportunity, so you will. And my dad was a drummer. My dad was a really good drummer growing up and naturally a really musical man. His sister could sing beautifully. And I guess I am, I'm happy to say I am naturally quite musical. So I took up the piano and then took up the flute when I was about 11, 12, and then the saxophone as well. And so, yeah, I did. I got my grades, I got to grade eight. Flute was the one that I really pushed hard and was in an orchestra, school orchestras, but also county orchestra as well. And my favourite part of that was when you got to perform with other people. Like when we went to see the I'm diverging here, but we went to see the Harry Potter theatre production with our youngest, the one in London where they do the stage thing. And we took it, he's 17. So when I say he's young, he's not young, but he loves Harry Potter. So we went to see that earlier this year. And when the orchestra were tuning up, I just feel like I'm transported back to a moment. And I feel a little bit wistful, like I'd love to have that opportunity again. Not professionally, not everything has to be about money or being paid to do it for it to be an important part of who we are. So going back to your question, I think there are clues and themes, if we look hard enough, that help us see that whatever sort of environment we're in, there is a contribution we make. And probably for me, those are making people quickly feel welcome. I think I'm quite good at that. I think I'm quite good at picking up people's emotional cues and in intuition. I think I'm very practical. I've learned that about myself. So I help people practically make a step forward. I'm a problem solver, in fact.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

These are things that you've learned later, though.

Everyone Is Creative As A Problem Solver

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, probably. Probably. But I think there are clues. Like even there's clues in feedback from others. There's clues in school reports that say negative things. Like my school report used to say Hannah talks too much, but obviously I taught for a living now, so it's okay that I probably taught too much. It was verbal diarrhea, that's what Mr. Mills called it, that now maybe I've been able to craft and mature and see differently. Creatives who are listening to this probably were told that they were away with the fairies or didn't concentrate on the right thing, or they weren't always doing the task they were meant to, or they were looking out the window. And that is a misplaced use, perhaps, of a personality trait that could really serve them well.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Did you consider yourself creative when you were a kid because of all the music and stuff? And that's why I wanted to highlight it because that's it. I didn't know that about you until we sat down before we started to record. And I thought, as a creative podcast, I've got to highlight that Hannah deep down.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I know too creative. And I still, although I'm not involved in doing anything, you know, I still I love to sing, I still love music, I love dancing in the kitchen, not so much publicly. What's really interesting, the word creative, I've had real hang up over. I think I have I actually have a bit of a beam in my bonnet about it more these days. I think I've been in so many environments where people talk about the creatives that I think it's really exclusive. If you want me to be really honest, I'm a person of personal faith, and I think if we have a creator God that every single person's made creatively, and so every person's creative. My son's a biochemist, he's still creative. How can we come up with mathematical solutions to things or scientific understanding or inventions if people aren't considered creative? So I don't really like the creative, non-creative device.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Well, we talk about that as a bit of a problem as well on Creative Noah Land, because creativity with a big C is just simply problem solving.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

That's right. And it's thinking differently, or I just think everybody has a creative part within them, whether that comes up mathematically, scientifically, musically, with words. I mean, I always love to write stories, I've written a book, but I still wouldn't use the language of creative because for me that feels like it's so funny, it feels like a mantle that doesn't belong to me. It belongs to really creative individuals. I can think of individuals who are songwriters, you know, and I think they're the creatives. But in my heart, I don't really like that. I want to push against it and say, actually, I am creative, you're creative. My son Noah, who's a scientist, is creative, my husband's a creative, because we have that ability in us to create and to, like you say, problem solve. So I'm so feel like I'm contradicting myself. I feel like a bit of a personal hang-up about using that phrase. And if someone invited me to a creatives event, I'd think, oh well, I wouldn't be, I shouldn't go to that. And yet I would say to somebody else, don't be ridiculous, go to it.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Does that lead us nicely on to purpose? Because you're helping people solve the problem of perhaps not having a purpose or feeling lacking in their life or a bit stuck.

Pandemic Pivot And Coaching Origins

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, and the whole, you know, the whole coming to the place of helping people with purpose was a bit accidental. So I didn't wake up one day and go, I want to help people find their purpose. And again, I hope that's really helpful to people listening. That I don't think we have this moment of aha. I think it's an evolving, growing understanding of ourselves. And like I said, I think we we have different assignments in life, different careers, different things that we're doing, that there will be threads across them that are true. So I used to be a teacher. And so when I started my own business, I didn't for a minute think I would be doing some of the stuff I do now. Not at all. I started working with leaders and teams and doing workshops and very much in my wheelhouse. I'm good at communicating, I'm good at putting training together because I was a trained teacher, so I can plan to help people learn. But then during the pandemic, what actually happened was first of all, everything came to a standstill for me, like it did for many people. My my little company, I thought we would collapse because I'd never been doing online stuff at that point. It was all face-to-face, lots of things got cancelled. So suddenly my financial situation didn't look so great. And I had a really two really important conversations. One with my husband who listened to me as I grieved a little bit and then said, Come on, we can pivot and you're gonna be all right. Take the pressure off. And then with a friend of mine, Justin, who also works in strengths and personality like me, and he said to me, It's a bit of a practice, what you preach moment. What's your personality? What are your strengths? And how can you put them to use in this moment of crisis? And so the next day, I picked up a phone and I decided to start recording little videos for Instagram about different strengths, different personality types, and how important they are in a time of crisis. What does it look like for that strategic person in a crisis or the innovative person in a crisis? How do they contribute? And so I started to do these videos, and the long story short is people started to watch them and they liked them, and it got a little bit of traction. And I thought, oh, maybe I can do this. I've never done face-to-camera work ever. And people were saying you're really good at this, you're quite natural. Did that take you 500 takes? And I was like, No, it didn't. I'm not a perfectionist, I just stick it out there. And they're like, Yeah, but you're quite good at this. So, off the back of that, quite a few people started messaging me and saying, Would you do some one-to-one coaching with me? We've worked together before, I'd been into their business. I'm feeling a bit like I'm in a time of transition, we're in the pandemic, it's making me think a lot about life. I want to do something different. I know this is a long answer, but it's important. So I started doing these one-to-one coaching with people, which ended up being much more about individuals' next steps. What's my purpose? That question lots of people asked during that period of our lives, collectively all at the same time. And I found that I could be quite helpful in steering people towards their next steps because of the work I'd previously done, understanding personality, all the stuff that went into my book. So I had this idea in 2020. We were in France actually, camping in France. It was during one of those windows when you were allowed to go to certain places. We were camping in France, and I had one of those ideas that you have, and I paid attention to it. And there was a lad called James, who was our lodger at the time. He was an operations manager, but he'd been furloughed. And he wasn't on holiday with us, he was here looking after the dog. And I sent him this voice note from France. I wish he still had it, he probably doesn't. And I just said, James, I've had this idea of turning everything I've learned into a course to help people called the Purpose Pursuit, to help them think about their next steps. Take everything from all this work I've been doing. If I do it, will you help me on an operations side of it? You're furloughed, you live in the same house as me. You may as well kind of be. Yeah. And he was like, I've got nothing else to do. I'm bored out of my brains. Let's do it. So there is a bit of serendipitous kind of situation.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

I don't really believe in coincidence. Well, no, normally.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Nor me. And he also became, he's like an extra part of our family. He's another one of our kids, really, now. And we love James DeBix. But he got stuck in, used all his operational strategic mind. I did all the filming and the course creation. We put a course out there. This is slightly off topic, but the reason the book came about really was a desire in me to get it into more people's hands. Not everyone can afford the time or the money or the investment of a course and a coaching programme. How do you help more people? And a book is a low bar, really, isn't it? It's a low bar of entry. People can read a book, they can take themselves through that process, they can always take it further if they want to. So all that to say that I ended up doing that work actually because of a very painful, difficult time of life. And one of the things that I would say is that we are often redirected because of really painful times. Some of the biggest like decisions of my life have come through very painful times, actually, where you see clearly you're very lost, but then you're in a bit of a sink or swim. People who get made redundant often go on to do incredible things that they maybe thought they might, but never really had the courage to do because everything was safe and everything was fine.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

And people get stuck in patterns.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

They do. Change is hard. And the older we get, the more we get more and more nervous about risk. I think we get more nervous about failure. We have more responsibilities, we've got a mortgage to pay. Everything starts to retreat a bit because we think I've got a lot to lose now. And when you're 21, maybe you've got that more, I'll give it a go. There's nothing to lose. And I think that feeling of failure and having everything lined up becomes bigger. Some of the people I talk to, they actually make it much bigger in their head than they are. I'm like, give it a go or apply for that job. What happens if you don't get it? So what? It's reducing that pressure a little bit. What is failure anyway? How can we see that word more? Uh I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like I go, yeah, I'd love to fail, but there's lessons in that. There's always lessons in it. There's always something to learn in what doesn't go. I've had loads of things not go as I expect them to, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

We talk about purpose, and I know that's going to be different for everybody. But what happens when someone finds their purpose? Like you say, you talk about people doing incredible things. And with doing the book and everything, you've gone in deep, you've gone into the studies, you've gone into all that stuff about people actually finding the thing that makes them tick. Is there was there a question in there?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

No, but you started with one. Tell me, go back, tell me what Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

So what happens when someone finds their purpose?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

First of all, just to say, it's very interesting that purpose has shot up the sort of AI and Google usage. It's something that's really fascinating. The data is suggesting people are asking more and more about this idea of purpose. There is-that's because people are more lost, or I think there is a growing desire for more, perhaps. I think there is a growing desire that life, I don't know what the circumstances have led to this, because there's always been a question around purpose. What is purpose? It goes right back to early philosophers about this idea of purpose. But I think there is a maybe a growing feeling of lostness and desperation at times of the state of everything. Perhaps the fact we know more, there's more news, we're more globally aware, has made us more feeling lost. What is the point of all this? And there is an issue. Stephen Bartley was talking about on a recent podcast, he was quoting some evidence. I think it is two in five Americans and three in five Brits under the age of 30. This is vaguely correct, it might be slightly wrong, have a sense of they have no idea what their purpose is and a longing to know more about life. But the problem with a word like purpose and capital P purpose is it then feels like this nebulous thing that perhaps five or ten people, the big celebrities or people who have mega callings can find.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Reserved for those lovers. Yeah, reserved for a lookout. Oh, they've always known what their thing was.

What Purpose Does For Health And Life

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Exactly. Whereas I feel like demystifying it, normalizing it, seeing it more as an evolutionary, growing. It wasn't that I wasn't in my purpose at 21. It's just I've got clearer about some of the things I want to say yes to and the stuff I'm more inclined to say no to. It's less of a moment I've arrived and saying I'm in my purpose. I I think that feels heavy and a bit stressful. I often use the example of I've got AirPods, and when I lose my AirPods, which is all the time, I use that find my thing on your phone. And you know when I don't whether you use that, but it'll say 25 feet away, 20 feet away, five feet away, you're right there. And I think the journey of understanding more about ourselves and purpose is that kind of idea of getting closer or getting further away. Yeah. Am I nearer to where I want? Does this feel like it's taking me closer towards purposeful living, or am I further away? And when we've got certain understanding, like understanding our personality, understanding our blind spots, knowing our values, knowing how we self-sabotage, getting feedback from others, when you've got that data, you can use that to get you five feet closer or five feet further away. And that's what I would say purpose is is am I getting closer or further from the stuff that is made for me to do? I think that there's a reason we're all here. We all have a contribution to make. That doesn't need to feel heavy, that doesn't need to feel like a, oh my goodness, it's a holy grail and I might miss it. I don't think that's the case. I think we can make choices to get closer and choices to move further away. Some of the people I work with who are in their 40s who are really grappling with this are aware that they may have made choices that have moved them further away. And now how do I get back on track? So I wanna, I would wanna say purpose is about living purposefully for the things that add value to your life and to the value of others. Going back to your question, people who do live with a sense of purpose, they're healthier, they are happier, and I mean that in the widest, more perhaps content use of the word rather than emotional use of the word. They tend to live longer, they tend to have healthier hearts, they tend to have better relationships with people, they tend to have a generosity and a gratitude about them. So there is so much data, and there's more in the book, around why this is a good idea. And again, it's not about I I've arrived one day at a destination of now I'm in my purpose. It's uh how do I take these lessons of life and use this data to help me make better decisions? I was talking to a lad earlier who's 20 and he was having a coaching session with me, and just saying when you take your next job and you you work there, it is less binary. Of this is right for me, this is wrong for me. You may want to leave after a year if you're unhappy there, but that's not a problem or a failure. That is massive data you've got. The stupid thing to do is to do it again, right? To go and pick another thing like that. If you discover about yourself that corporate life is not for you, well, don't do it then.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and again again. Exactly. It's a different result.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

That's the problem. Getting feedback on actually this wasn't for me, great. You've learned some brilliant. You've now got loads of data to help you make a better decision.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

And if purpose isn't a destination, how does one begin to know if they're on the right path? Or I guess should we go into some of the steps within the book? Because I guess there's people listening to this that perhaps going, oh, am I on the right purpose? Or how do I find that purpose that I'm looking for? So where does one start, Hannah?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Good question. One of the first things I think people have to do, and I this is was a really important part of the book for me, is there's such a desire to get answers that we don't stop and look at where we are. And I tell a silly story in the book about one time when I went running and got totally lost. And the problem was I couldn't get GPS to find out where I was in order to find my way back and how this woman had to help me and you know put me back on the right track. But the problem with so many people is they want to know where they should be going, but they don't really know where they are. So I think the first thing it's really important to do is to really take stock of life now. There's loads of activities in the book, but quite simply just looking at life at the moment and thinking, what's really great? What do I really love doing? What do I feel so so about? And what do I really not enjoy? And even just getting some time use data, like not just work. I don't, this is not just about, by the way, purpose is not about what you pay for. It's so much more than that. If it's reduced to paid work, then what do we do in retirement? What do we do when we're on MAT leave or any other reason that we're off work? It's not about that, it's so much more than that. But get some time use data, spend a bit of time tracking life and thinking, right, let me look back over this last week. What was really good this week? Where did I feel most alive? Where did I feel my most sense of satisfaction? What did I really enjoy? And it could be a really micro activity, you could be like, I actually really loved fixing the washing machine. Okay, great. And then what did I feel okay about? The sort of bread and butter stuff that I quite enjoyed. Wasn't the light of my life, but it was all right. And what did you think? This is tough for me. That was more necessary, but not really me. The goal isn't to totally eliminate that stuff because that's again not real life for most of us. You and I have to do stuff that we don't love. I think probably even Beyonce has to do stuff she doesn't love because that's life. I don't know her. I haven't been able to ask her that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I'll give her a question.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

But I would imagine, yeah, you ask her. I imagine most people still have to do stuff they don't love. But the idea is taking that data so that we do more of the right stuff. If you learn that you like being with people and you have your best ideas with people, you need to think about taking work that gives you more collaborative opportunities. And therefore, working from home all week alone is maybe not a good choice for you. So it's as simple as that kind of lay of the land is the first thing I'd encourage people to do. Get a good idea of what's working, what isn't. How bad actually is it? One of the really interesting pieces of data on this is that we only need to be doing the best stuff about 20-25% of the time for us to have a good sense of well-being. So as long as you are regularly using your strengths, i.e., a few hours a day, it doesn't have to be all day to get the um the good stuff from it.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

The endorphins and all good stuff from it.

Start With A Life Audit

SPEAKER_00 24:15

So they did a whole study of doctors. They looked at the doctors that didn't get burnout compared to the ones that didn't. They were trying to work out were there any things that they could learn about the doctors that had longevity to the ones that didn't. And what they discovered is that the doctors that were using their strengths, i.e., if they were good problem solvers, they got time to do that. If they were good at empathizing, they got time to do that, if they were good at mentoring, they were developing young doctors. If they got to do that regularly, about 25% of their working week, that acted as a buffer from burnout, which is helpful for us to know that we don't have to be doing our favourite things all the time. The balance has to be right. I mean, obviously, the more the better. We don't just want to be avoiding burnout, we want to be thriving. But that was an interesting piece of data that meant that it acted as a buffer to the hard stuff if a doctor had enough going on that was them using their strengths to win their best. I know. 25%. I know it's not very much, is it?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

It's not as much as obviously you can't count sleep, like, no, but it's not as much as you'd think to have that sense of buffering, like you say, buffering out the stuff that's maybe a bit shit because you've done the other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

It's so interesting to me, and also a bit releasing to think. I think also as we're talking about this, I'd want to release people from that burden of I feel like I'm living a purposeful life. Life is still really hard a lot. And I I think that's really important to say. I don't bounce out of bed in the morning. I mean, I love my work. I don't love everything about my work, but I do love my work. I love my family. But life is still really challenging at times. I still have moments of what am I doing this for? I have large life events that occur that you have to work through. I would never want to paint a picture of euphoric, I live in my purpose, and it's wonderful. I also wouldn't want to paint a picture if it's therefore not worth trying. So some people have just given up on the idea of thought, don't bother trying because it's never like life's a bit slightly more annihilated. I read something recently, it just said about purpose monsters and people peddling purpose, and and we should just give up on it because it's too grand and it'll end up just making you feel disappointed. I think we need to find a halfway house between the people who have purpose who have perhaps got millions of pounds and sit in their very guru lives and tell us about finding purpose and the people who have just dismissed it as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

It helps with us talking about it because the idea of purpose not being this grandiose thing where you're like Mother Teresa or something like that. It's no, you can have purpose by 25% of the enjoyment comes from helping your family, helping the people around you. It's some of those small events. But I can't help feeling that a lot of people don't want to analyse their lives like that. It's scary to go internally and go and look in even at some of the darker stuff, some of the stuff that oh, I'm not great at that, I'm not brilliant at that, but I'll keep myself in this safe position of no change. The chapters in the book, yeah. They've all got very interesting names.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah, I would know.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Very based on nature. I know.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

This came to me as a bit of an epiphany. This idea.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Can you talk to me about those? Because each one, and we should say within the book, it's not just a woo-ear.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

No, it's not, it's very practical.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Oh God, live your purpose, it'll be great. It's super practical. You've obviously done all the studies, you've done all this, and there's practical things at the end of every chapter and recaps and stories. That's important.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

I mean I'm a storyteller.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

And that's why I've started the podcast because we want to inspire people by look, here's someone that's done it, or here's someone that's doing it.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

And stories are so important. That's how we've always communicated through history.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Talk to me about all these different titles, though. You've got the guide, the mountain, the valley, the waterfall, the desert, the forest, and the lighthouse.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I know.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

And we're not going to go into all of these, obviously, because we want you people listening to go and buy the book, obviously. Or audiobook available with Hannah's lovely voice.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Kindle audio.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

There we go.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Available in all good bookstores.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

We've done the big sound and we'll do it again at the end. But where did the names come from? And can you just give me like a rough overview of why and what the connection is between some of the names and the details within the chapters?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Quite funny, really, because a bit of the inspiration comes from a book I've never read.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

So okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

I've never read Pilgrim's Progress, not properly, but it's a very famous old book, but I've never read it. But I know that the point of the book, I'm trying to even think who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. It's a very famous old book, and I think it's probably a hard read because of the old English. But I know that the principle behind Pilgrim's Progress is this person goes off on a journey, they meet different people along the way, and they visit different places.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Is it like the pre to the alchemist? Have you ever read The Alchemist?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

No, I've never read that either.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

And that's one of those books that is about that journey. Okay, and meeting people. Meeting people and bringing you back to where you're maybe.

Strengths Use And Burnout Buffer

SPEAKER_00 29:03

It could be. Having never read either, it would be difficult for me to say. But Pilgrim's Progress is probably several hundred years old now. And it's about this idea of a person setting off on a journey and they meet different things along the way. Some of the people they meet are helpful, some of them are not. They visit different places and so on and so forth. And that book came to me as a thought when I was thinking about the course and the whole idea of the purpose in the book and the whole idea of the purpose pursuit. And this, it's such a twee word journey, and I would don't want to overuse it because everyone uses it. But what I was trying to do was say, we are not getting to a final destination here. We visit these different places and we collect stuff along the way. A bit like I guess a different example would be the idea of Hansel and Gretel and the breadcrumbs. What the book is doing is you're collecting those breadcrumbs that help you along a trail. And it's not, as I've said already, I know I'm 46, just turned 46. In 10 years from now, I'm going to have further breadcrumbs for my own life story. And what does purpose look like in the next season of my life? So the idea of the visiting the different places was to give people that sense of momentum, of data gathering, of practical stuff, but also the idea that you don't really arrive anywhere and you can revisit any of these places at any time. So then when I came up with the ideas of the names, it was what sort of pictorially represented that kind of stop-off. So the route, that's the first one. You can't go anywhere if you don't have a map, you know, if you don't know where you're going, if you haven't seen where you are.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

So that's the self-analysis. That's the self-analysis.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Where am I, what's working, what isn't working, how to feel about life. The guide then is the reason the next chapter is called the guide, is that setting off on any kind of journey, we need a really helpful guide along the way.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

You need a GPS.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah, you need your GPS. And the guide is when you start to discover this idea of your personality and your strengths and the stuff within you. So in that first chapter, we start to orientate ourselves a little bit more around well, me paying attention to who I am and what my strengths are. So we get deep into the um sort of strength-based psychology, positive psychology, personality traits, talent, all of that's covered.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Can I just ask? This might be a bit of a sidebar. Do you find that quote unquote more, although we've banished the creative myth, quote unquote, more creative people have similar character-based strengths or similar character-based weaknesses than, say, perhaps someone who's might be a bit more business oriented. Traditionally business oriented.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

And when you go through that early part of the book, I created a little bit of a diagnostic tool of personality types, and one of them is called the Explorer and that idea of thinking a little bit more outside the box. So there'd be some probably resonance with those particular traits. And yes, I do. And you tend to find that creatives have uh more capacity to think outside the box, to second guess themselves, maybe to come up with a hundred ideas a day. There'll be some of those traits that definitely. What about the negative?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I mean, the more imposter syndrome sort of things. Self-worth is right. Wrapping some of that up in artistic work feels a bit different to say wrapping it up in a oh, I've managed to complete that job, whatever it was, spreadsheet, or I don't know if this is me being a woman. No, fair enough. But when a creative wraps perhaps a little bit more of their identity up in person.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, because you've produced this thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Well, it's fit, it's really vulnerable, isn't it? It's it's like being, I said to Laura when the book first came out, I said, I feel like I'm naked in public. You know, it's that kind of giving of yourself as you go through the book. So that the guide and the mountain are very much about you at your best, but then when you go to the valley and the desert, those two chapters are looking at two things. They're looking at how do we self-sabotage because of our personality. So, what's the downside of having these strengths? What's the blind spot? So if you are a bit of a people pleaser, if you love people and you're willing to give of yourself, the negative of that could be that you find yourself saying yes to things that you should have said no to. There's nothing wrong with wanting to please people. I say this all the time. But the dark side is that it then drives your behaviours in a way that's unhelpful. Or you have so many ideas that the negative is you never action any of them. Or you are so good at being flexible that you never make a plan. You know, so I get people to think through that process of the valley of what does it look like for my actual personality to be my own worst enemy? Then the desert is more about self-sabotaging behaviours like comparison, like imposter syndrome, imposterism, as I call it in the book, having a fixed mindset, having a problem with making mistakes and perfectionism.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Why would you call it imposterism?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Because I think it takes it away from being a syndrome. Good.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I knew you were going to say, because whenever you give someone a syndrome or a name, it's like, oh, that defines me then.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

It's like it makes it more of a thing that you're imposterism, I think, is nearly universal. I think there is about 20% of people that it doesn't affect. Those people have different kinds of issues, like possibly their egomaniacs or sociopaths. But most of us who have it at some point, it's quite normal because you're doing something that is pushing you out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

That's what we say on the podcast. Imposter syndrome, you should embrace it because it means you're doing something new.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

That's right. What we don't want to do is things that are so beyond us that we absolutely crush and burn. But if something's a bit beyond us, I tell again, tell the story in the book of a time where I got asked to speak in an event and I said yes to it. Then I found out who the other person was who was speaking at the event, who was just this incredibly well-known person in this field, really competent. And I had this massive moment of what on earth am I doing here? What have I got to contribute? Even somebody sent me a screenshot and said, Look at you, Hannah, because I was on the bill next to this guy. And I was like, Oh, I don't, because now I feel really sick. I don't want to do this. Shall I pretend to be ill?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Another practice, what you preach about.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Exactly. It was another practice. And what I came back to with a bit of help from a friend was come on, let's talk about what do I do really well when I'm speaking. He's brilliant, but differently brilliant. And so, therefore, what's the point in a comparison? I can never be him, I can never achieve what he's achieved because he has. It's not mine to achieve. So when we have an imposterism moment.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

That's quite a realisation as well, isn't it? It's like they've done that. It's not for me to do. It's not for me.

A Realistic View Of Purposeful Living

SPEAKER_00 35:11

But what's for me is for me to show up as myself as authentic as I can. So what I talk about when we're feeling imposterism is how can we change our measures of success so that it's less about am I going to be brilliant or not? What are some other measures of success I can use? Was it that I did it anyway, even though I was petrified? I've got a book out there. If nobody reads it, that is outside of my control. But the bit that was in my control to do a really good job of it and to put my heart and soul into it. What about my personality? Can I say I showed up and authentically brought that to that situation? That's the bit I'm responsible for. What about a measure of success around the amount of preparation and care I've put into this? That then makes everything less about how we're received or what the outcomes are, and a little bit more about the process, which I think we underestimate a lot. So I tell that story in the book and I tell other ones. And imposterism comes from lots of things. It can come from that vulnerability of creative work and you've put yourself out there. In fact, I got a message actually the other day from a friend of mine. He's a creative, he's a musician, he's been really successful. He said, I hope you can have some enjoying delight in what you've done. I also know if you're anything like me, this is a really vulnerable moment. What will people think of it? Will it sell? Will I ever be asked to do this again? How will it change my life? And he then goes on to say, to encourage me around the fact that I've followed through on the bit that I was asked to do and to see that as the thing. You don't know what's going to happen. That bit's out of your control.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Well, Andy Warhol famously said, You've just got to make the art. That's right. Let it go.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, just ship it, as somebody said to me. Just ship it.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Well, people are discussing whether it's good or bad, you're just cracking on making the totally.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

And going back to the whole how things are received, I was talking to my nephews about this the other day, and I love Frederick Batman, who for me is one of the best novelists out there. He's a fiction writer. And my nephew said to me, Joan, and he said, Some people give him a one-star review. And objectively, I'm like, how come that he's so incredibly good? But of course, what's one person's cup of tea isn't somebody else's? He's been obedient to his strengths and calling and so on, and he's put it out there, and he is actually incredible. And how anyone can do it. But it is subjective, isn't it? It is.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

The example I get is who defines the great art? The Mona Lisa, yeah, pretty boring picture. Yes. It's famous because it's story. Yes, it's Leonardo da Vinci, but it's not his best work.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

And it's subjective.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

So I think when we're feeling like going back to practically, when we're feeling like an imposter, we've got to come back to am I feeling this because I'm being stretched? That's therefore normal. If you feel like you've got everything within you to do that task, you're probably not thinking big enough. That's a really helpful. If I'm never feeling like an imposter, apart from if I'm a bit of a very self-confident egoist, most of the rest of us, if I don't ever feel like that, you could be, you're probably coasting, you're probably doing things that are well within your capacity, and you probably should be thinking about, if you want, to stretch yourself a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Perhaps buying Hannah's book to find your purpose.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yes, yes, that would be a good idea. And then it goes on to the forest, which is I just quickly finished off these two last areas. The forest is about that hidden part of us, the roots that go down deep, our values, the things that really matter to us. So you could have a personality type that's, I don't know, let's use it, full of ideas, but then your values are the bits that undergird everything, they underpin who you are. I've worked with lots of people who they love what they do or they're in the right kind of work and career, but there is a value in their life that was off. One woman I worked with, when she worked through her values with me, she realized that she wanted to be near her family. She was actually from sort of one of the mainland Europe countries. And she said, I realize that although I'm loving my work, I am feeling misaligned because I don't want to live this far away. And you have one life and all the rest of them. For her, that mattered. For other people, it doesn't. But for her, she had to recognise it did. And therefore, she needed to make a life change to get that back on track. And she does now live back in the same country as her family, which is amazing. And then the lighthouse is very much around next steps. Not having a grandmaster plan. Most people don't have that. But what's my next steps? There's a really helpful exercise in there around we could talk through that one if you want to.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

I was going to say some of because I think some of these are all we've gone through the chapters, but within each of this, you've got practical exercises. How does one start to find their values, really?

SPEAKER_00 39:23

There's a whole exercise and a profile in there to help you get through that and to really make you do the work. And I can't do that work for you. It is like a coaching book. Coach yourself with a bit of help. And if you do the work, you will definitely make progress. But I can't tell somebody what their values are. They've got to do that work of this is a classic thing that everyone always says, but if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. And when you look at the value list in the book, you'll be like, oh, these are all really good things. And there's probably about 40 of them in there, 50 maybe. But all 50 things can't be your values.

The Journey Framework Of The Book

SPEAKER_01 39:53

So what exercises do you implement in the book that are going to help people refine those values down?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

So what they do is they look at that list of values, that's one of the exercises. And then you start, you go through it first of all, and you think which ones particularly resonate. So you make a short list from the long list. That short list has probably still got 20 on it. And then you do the ruthless elimination to get yourself down to a maximum five. I would say you should kind of have more than five because it ends up being an unworkable list that you won't remember. Three is even better if you can get to three. And then what you then have to think about off the back of that is the next part is to diagnose how well am I living out these values. So let's say you said your values were family, adventure, and not. Let's pretend that's what you chose. So you'd have to look at your life and think if I'm scoring myself out of 10, and there's a bit of a there's a matrix in the book, which is about the walk and talk around our values. I won't go into all those details. Am I walking or talking or both that value? Do I do that? Do I spend time with my family? Do I do I live that out? Then if you think about that idea of adventure, I've said this is a value. When was the last adventure I went on? Mini adventure or big adventure. It doesn't have to be that, you know, your definition of adventure can be whatever you want, but am I doing anything adventurous? And what just say knowledge? Are you learning? If you are, then great. So if you go through that diagnostic process, once you've chosen your values, you can then pick one of those values. You can't address everything at once because we've got finite time. But you might go, right, adventure. I've scored that really low. What am I going to do in 2026 that's 10% more adventurous than it currently is? What does that look like for me to live that value out? One woman I worked with, she put creativity into her top five. And she said to me when she was working on her values that she could almost, she was a 40-year-old woman. She could hear her parents in her head or other voices saying, Oh, that's not a value, that's not important enough, that's not worthy. Yeah, well, and she was also syndrome totally. But she was also like quite a responsible, servant-hearted person, and that felt a bit selfish almost to put creativity in there. That was a bit frivolous. And I was like, no, come on, we're gonna fight for that. She put it in her list of five. And then the next thing was like, What can I do that allows me to begin to have a creative outlet? She actually decided that one morning a week, she was in that time, she wasn't working full-time. She's gonna give three hours a week to a creative endeavour. And that was going to be her action for the year towards embracing that value. She's actually gone on to do some really incredible things in the work that she's now doing, that is a more creative outlet for her than she had before. But that was years on. So I guess that again, the point I'm trying to make there is small tweaks and changes are worth making. A 10% shift is still worth doing. Like me saying to you that next year I'm going to start playing the piano every week, and just at home, just sitting, say for an hour a week, I'm going to sit and play the piano. That is a shift that moves the dial, that in a year on from that, I might go and do something more.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

And these actions require discipline, though, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

They do.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

And that's the hard bit for a lot of people. In the world that's trying to pull us in all sorts of directions, that's the hard bit.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

There are some individuals who are really good at making a decision and just saying, right, that's what I'm going to do. You know, they set a goal and they go for it. I think that's another really important thing. You need to understand yourself what motivates you, what helps you stick at something that you're not going to stick at. If you and me and 10 other friends, we all decided we were going to run a marathon next year, let's pretend. What would enable us to actually reach that milestone in terms of motivation and discipline could be quite different. You might say, I'm going to track all my runs and I'm going to use loads of data, and that's what I'm going to do. I might say, I need to meet a friend because I won't go if I don't have the accountability of a friend. Somebody else might say, I'm going to join a running club. Somebody else might say, Oh, I love knowledge, I'm going to read loads of books on running. Someone else might say, I've got to do it for charity because then it will make it worthwhile. Do you see what I'm saying there? There are different things that we have to learn to unlock that help us understand what motivates us and disciplines us.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

And they can be good and bad, they can.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

So, for example, when I was writing the book, loads of deadlines, you know, you've got drafts to write. I said to my editors right at the start, I can be a bit last-minute. I like pressure.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Parkinson's law.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Yeah, I'm definitely like that. I am, I love a bit of pressure, but I cannot write a whole draft under that kind of pressure because it won't be good enough. So we made a decision that we would create chapter deadlines because I wanted them. I like deadlines. I like pleasing people. So if I've said to my editor, Elizabeth, you will get chapter one on December the 12th, I will do that. If we just had this loose deadline of the draft will be in on February the 4th, oh my gosh, I would have been writing right up to the deadline. So these enforced mini deadlines, using the fact that I like to please people and I don't like to let people down, was using my personality for my good, actually. If I'd have just said I'm going to create an internal deadline of the 2nd of December, that would have been so fictitious to me, I wouldn't have done anything.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

But you're at that stage where you understand yourself.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

And I guess I meet a lot of people who perhaps feel a bit lost, and there's me trying to direct them to go and listen to the stories. But yeah, I'm just trying to think of the listener that is just completely on.

Blind Spots Valley And Desert

SPEAKER_00 45:05

So go back, I would say, reflect on, I mean, you can answer this question live live on here. If you think about a time where you were motivated to do something and you completed it, what were some of the factors that led up to you actually successfully doing that? What within your personality? So I did do a half marathon years ago, the first one I ever did. And the reason I did it was because a boy I was teaching had leukemia and his dad was a bus driver and he had to give up work to look after him. And financially they were in a tough spot. That makes me sound really worthy. I don't mean it to. I would never have probably ever done that had I not had the initial motivation of raising money for Jamie's family with a couple of other colleagues. So I learned something about myself. Okay, I thought, oh, this is an interesting, this is a hack. If I want to do something that's good for my health, maybe I need to have a cause that makes me feel it's worthwhile. I'm not going to necessarily do it just for the love of running because that's not me. So the question I'd revert that back to you is when have you done something that was difficult and what enabled you to succeed and complete? And you might not have an answer for now, but that is a question.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

That is that is something I've got I've got a few answers, but I don't know how quite how deep I want to go. It's up to you. Well, I mean, sounds like you. I've done quite a lot of work on myself, and my sister is in the mental health sector. So I've known a lot about myself, and for a very, very long time, I didn't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I had some toxic drivers who were, well, if we're going deep, don't be dad.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

And be a better man than that, shall we say? I'm not going to go into any detail. No, you're sure I understand that. But I can now, like you've done, done the work on myself, look back on that and go, yes, that was a toxic driver, but it got me to a point. It was a toxic driver that started a journey for me, being the good man that I want to be, the the other, hopefully the inspiring person that I want to be. But that's not easy for people to do, going, I think we're quite introspective people. We know ourselves and we have done the work.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

And that's not no that for some people that's going to be harder, but I think that's where we have to go back in order to go forward. And I would say to people, reflect on times where you have achieved something or completed something and look for some clues in what helped you. I like those examples I've just given. It's not that big a deal that I ran a half marathon, but there was a clue in that for me, which is this is really interesting that the Jamie thing acted as a motivator. And then I just know of myself that I am quite externally motivated. I'm not as intrinsically motivated as some people might think I am.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

In what sense you mean your motive? Because I feel like I'm a bit similar. I get the motivation from the external validation. Someone's proud of me. I've done something, I've achieved something.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

I don't want to let you down.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

But then do we go into the danger of ticking the list, quotas? I've done this, I've done that. That's how I then define my self-worth. Because I think I'm guilty of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Totally. And I, you know, I'm going to be working on myself for the rest of my life. I'm not going to get there. I think what I'm trying to say is that you can learn to think, how do I work with the personality I've got in order for me to make the progress I'm looking for in my life? That's really the question I'm asking. And, you know, not to keep saying in the book, but the book does use a framework to help people simply understand their personality a little bit more. And I refer to that throughout the book. So you start to see what some of the traits are of having that, learning to find ways to stop ourselves from self-sabotaging by using our personality for our good. So, like that example of me saying, I need you to give me deadlines. That's me using my personality for my benefit, right? There's nothing wrong with that whole process. Yes, it'd be lovely for me to think, oh, I'll just get that done in a timely manner. I don't work like that. It wasn't going to work for me to just go, yes, I'll set myself a deadline and I'll do it. I needed that feeling of they are counting on that to help give me a kick up the bum to get something done. I would say to anyone listening, look back and think about those times when you have been, you've completed, you've been successful, you've been proud of what you've done, and ask yourself the question, what are the factors that led to that success? And how do I replicate those factors for something else I'm trying to achieve, trying to lose weight, trying to run a marathon, trying to write a book, trying to change career, whatever it might be, there are things that will work for you. That's why I don't love the whole. This is a side point here, but when people share their morning routine, there's nothing wrong with that. But people's lives are really different and people's capacities are really different. And whenever I'm coaching anyone, I would never say to them, follow my maxims and you do what I did, because they have a completely different personality to me. Some people need to have a really set, you know. My eldest son, he plans everything. He's just done a very intense degree at Oxford, and for him, it was about maximising the use of all time. He was very, very busy, played loads of sport, so every bit of time was really allocated and planned for. And this is what I'm going to do. That's not going to work for some people. It would be like a straitjacket. For him, that release time back. So I think it's so important. That's why I always come back to personality. You cannot enforce onto somebody else what gave you success because it doesn't work for everyone. Noah's personality suits having a plan like that. And there's things for us all to learn from that, right? There's good ideas in that. But for somebody who's a night owl, for somebody who's a need to have a bit more variety, how do we use that to still get the same outcome?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

But again, that goes back to that. Oh, I want that quick fix. Oh, Stephen Bartlett does this every morning. He's a multimillionaire. Yeah. If I do that, I'll be a multimillionaire. But like you said, it doesn't exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

And there are some things that are universally good ideas, right? Like not picking up our phone until we've done some other things with at our time. That's a universally good idea.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Moving in the morning, hybrid.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

Those are good ideas, but everyone has to do that through the lens of what am I doing in the morning? Have I got a three-year-old to look after? I saw somebody on LinkedIn say the other day, my morning routine looks like this. And it was a joke, really, in terms of like how mad their life was because of the age of their kids and the things that they're trying to do. And you have to work with the confines of the life that we're living. There is no point me trying to emulate the life of someone who's got a very different set of circumstances to me.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

And like we discussed, it's about cherry picking those bits that work for you and putting into practice those. Sometimes it might be, oh, I've done three of my list of five things I need to do today. Yeah. Daily acts of resilience, I guess, is what I'm saying. There's things that sometimes you don't want to do, but discipline's going to get you further than motivation every time, isn't it?

Reframing Imposterism And Success

SPEAKER_00 51:21

That's right. And by nature, I wouldn't say I'm the most naturally disciplined people, but there's great stuff out there. The work of James Clear and the stuff like atomic habits is just universally brilliant. You just have to apply it to your circumstance and think, you know, that phrase, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Rather than reading something thinking, well, I can't do that. That's not my life. It's looking at your life circumstance and think, how can I embed some of this into the way my life runs? Again, in the book, I talk a lot about 10% tweaks. I think we can be very like all or nothing, unless I can sometimes And again that limits people because it's oh, if I can't have it all, I'm just not gonna bother. If you think about New Year's resolutions, sometimes I can be a bit like this. You go, I'm gonna cold plunge every day, I'm gonna run 5K every day, I'm gonna read a book a week, I'm going to pick up my phone none more than three times a day. You know, when we go really hardcore, and then what happens is you get three weeks and you're like, I'm not doing any of this, and then you just do nothing.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

But does that go back to things like the personality traits and the drivers where you've got 40, narrow it down, narrow it down?

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Narrow it down, pick a thing. I've been wondering about next year, having this idea of maybe saying, for example, in January, I'm gonna take vitamins every day. That's it, like a really small thing. Then in February, add a thing, March, add a thing. Small tweaks. So by in the end of the year, you've added 12 tweets to your life, which could be really good. I'm trying to do 12 tweets in January, I'll end up doing none.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Exactly. A friend of mine's got a different one for New Year. He says, more of this, less of this.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

That's right. That's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

It's a bit more like more time enjoying life with the family, less time doing it.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

I had an email this morning which was about the New Year thing, which is relevant at every point. And she said, rather than making resolutions, they said, What am I going to double down on? What am I going to do more? Yeah, I love this. I'm going to double down on it. Another thing I do is I have a word for the year, and I find that really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

What's been your word for this year?

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Strength was my word in January. I decided I wanted to be stronger this year. I had no idea how difficult this year was going to be. I knew I was writing a book, but my mother-in-law died in the spring, and my mum died, as I've said, a few weeks ago. There's been other really tough stuff that's gone on as a parent and other things behind the scenes, and writing a book whilst trying to work. And financially breaking even this year hasn't been that easy because I've been trying to give my time to things that don't pay any money, like the book. So strong, I was thinking about I want to be emotionally stronger, and I've really had to dig into that. I wanted to be physically stronger, so I wanted to spend some time actually physically working on doing weights or other weight-bearing things. I wanted to be strong and resilient in the face of challenges. And I kept coming back to that word and thinking, what does strength look like in this moment? How do I push into that? And as I go into the next year, I'm at the moment pondering what will my word for the year be. I think it can be a really helpful practice because it's not again not too, it's not too prescriptive, but it's more like this what feels important this year. And somebody else might have growth, somebody else might have contentment, actually. That feels important. It's not a year for growth, it's a year for me. Being content with the way life is and using that as a lens to look. Then what it does is when every opportunity comes your way, you can filter it through that lens of does this fit with that?

SPEAKER_01 54:23

How interesting. Now you've said that, I don't do a word for the year, but I might start. And I would say that the word for this year has definitely been connection. Yeah, no connection has been one of the most important things with the podcast, with sitting down, with sharing stories, with hopefully inspiring some other people. Life doesn't pause for purpose. I've heard you say that before, and in those messy times when grief, loss, heartbreak, all those things come into our world. Is there any advice you can give? People like, oh, I've been so good and I've been on the right track, and then this happened. Now the universe has just pulled the rug from under you. Have you got any words of wisdom about that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah, Harvey, for me, this whole life has really interrupted my plans this year. I think that is definitely been the case. It may not look like that from the outside and people who are not tracking with me, but life has really interrupted my things.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

And that's important to mention, isn't it? Like people see the glossy veneer of the Instagram reel, and you were the book launched.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

It's not appropriate for me to share everything with everybody, but I am happy to say life has hugely interrupted my plans. I've been stretched beyond what I feel I can handle. Yeah, in so many ways this year. I've cried most days of this year. I'm okay with that, I'm a crier, that's not a big deal. But I don't want people to think, you know, you often see people's end product, you often see people's moment where you don't see the rest. And I think what I'd say is, if I'd have known when I got the book deal last summer, if I'd have known that the no the book had got to be in and written and complete, all drafts complete, all we went through three draftings and then a copywriting process, but by Easter, if I'd have known what was going to be going on in my life alongside that, I probably would have said there's no work in the so I think sometimes I'd say, so it's better that we don't know what what might come along the way because we may have just backed out and just ignorance sometimes. Yeah, if I'd have known this year would be like it would have been like this is a year to just stick with what you know, don't add anything into the mix because this is gonna happen and this is gonna happen, this is happening. Actually, that isn't what the year looked like. And you know, it happened.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

But you can't plan for any of that, can you? No, you can't. What's that famous phrase? Man makes plans and God laughs.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Exactly. There's so many proverbs that talk about the idea of man may make his plans, but uh it's God who ordains where they go. And there's so many versions of that understanding that I think when life interrupts your plans, there's a few very simple things I'd say is we have to adjust our expectations of ourselves. So sometimes we just have to recognise I can't do what I thought I'd be able to do. Like it's not just a case of keep calm and carry on. I had to take some time. I was with my mum for the two weeks before she died. I cancelled all my plans and decided that value-wise, this was more important to me than anything else. And so, in times where life hits you in the face, I'd say come back to your values as a bit of a guiding principle about how do you want to conduct yourself. There's another really good piece of advice which came from when people have MS, they use this language of how many spoons do you have. I don't even come across it before, this idea of how many spoons you have. I hadn't until recently. When somebody has MS and it's relaxing, remitting, they talk about how many spoons do you have today. Meaning that when you have MS, you are constantly looking at what's my capacity today. Some days are a day where I might have five spoons or ten spoons, and another day it's more like two. And I think that principle is really useful in just our lives as well. And in times where we're more stretched, how many spoons do you have? And adjust your expectations. So rather than thinking, I can't do anything because I can't do what I'd hope to do today, what spoons do you have and how are you going to spend them? How are you gonna spend it?

Values As Hidden Roots

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Which one of those daily acts of resilience? Well, what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 58:12

If you've got two spoons today, what are you gonna do with those two spoons? Choose it wisely. Yeah, what capacity do you have? How do we ask for help? How do we pay attention to our nervous system and do the things? You know, I'm not an expert in that, but I am learning about what my body needs, what is good for me. When life interrupts us, unfortunately, it's that classic bear hunt. You can't go around it, you've got to go through it. So, how are you gonna go through it? And I think the other thing I'd say there is grief is so much more than just the loss of a person. If you're going through a difficult period, you will be grieving what's not as you'd hoped it would be. So we don't do grief very well, we don't talk about grief very well, we don't talk about loss, we don't even want to use the word die or death. But I think grief is so much more than that. It's a loss of dreams that you thought things might be, it's a disappointment of the way life might look. It's the end of an era, we can grieve that. I'm coming to the end of my children living at home. There's a grief in that. I'm excited for the next season, but I'm never gonna get that back. They're never gonna be, we're never gonna full-time live together. That's never gonna happen again. I've gotta allow myself to grieve that so that I can embrace what's coming.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

And recognise the next drivers, presumably.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Yeah, what's gonna be what's in the new season? But I think we have to do endings better so that we can do beginnings better. And and I think we spend a lot of time, maybe it's a UK issue, like pretending things aren't big deals, where we can say, yeah, this has been a really big deal, but that doesn't mean it then has to completely disable us from moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

Do you think that's easier for perhaps yourself, perhaps for me, because we've done that work.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Whereas it's in a lot of culture, I'm not gonna sweeping generalization, but it's very much easier a lot of times just to blame someone else.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Oh, it's that person's fault I didn't get the job. It's this person's fault that this didn't happen for me, or that's right.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

And I think the problem with thinking like that, it yeah, there will be reasons why things don't turn out our way, and there will be loads of circumstances that are outside of our control, but what is the bit I can control? What is I can't stop life happening to me, I can't stop life events occurring. I'm trying really hard to focus on the bit that is in my control.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

And align with the things that really matter to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Yeah, totally. All that I have is my ultimately in any given situation, and I don't want to give the impression that I always get this right because I don't. But in any given situation, all I have is control over is my response to it. That's all I've got.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

That's perfect. So come on then, Hannah. What makes your book different? Because I mean, I know you've you've done a podcast on this, but there's a lot of people in this world, isn't there? The self-help. If you listen to me, or you'll do this, we've tried to outline that your book it's practical, it's not just woo woo. Oh, come on, believe in yourself, guys. You can do this. That's one of the big things, isn't it? About what stands your book out and the years of experience that you've got doing what you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

Yeah, I think what makes my book different, I hope, the readers will be judges, is that I've tried to take a road that is purpose, is not this elusive reserve thing for select individuals. If purpose is a concept, wherever you live in the world, whatever your life looks like, whatever your financial scenario, whatever your there's got to be an ability for you to access it in some way, shape, or form. I have to believe that. I also haven't dismissed purpose as a don't bother thinking about it because you'll only get disappointed. So the book is trying to hold a middle space balance. I think the book is also for everyday people. I I'm an everyday person. I've got everyday challenges, and I've really tried to keep that in mind. It makes it therefore hopefully accessible. It's got my story in it, so I share lots of my own story, hopefully in a non-indulgent way, and it's also got lots of other people's stories in it. And when the editor was reading the book, she loved that part. She said it feels like a little bit of a behind the scenes. Obviously, names and things are changed, but every chapter has got stories in it that you will see bits of yourself in. Because we have universal, the story of being a human is universal. Yeah, absolutely. There are things in it that you'll go, oh, that resonated with me. And then within it also, every chapter has got research and study. I've done the work on why is this true and right and where's the research on it. I had really good editors that were like Hannah, content is king, content, content, and we really push that hard. And also, as I've said already, every book has got reflections and activities in it. I get frustrated by books that I think are great, and then I go, so what? There's some brilliant books out there. I'm not going to name any names, but I've been left reading them and thinking, I really like this book. What do I do with it? It's great, but so what? What does this mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

How do I implement that truth?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

How do I implement that brilliant truth into my life? It's great, but it's conceptual. And make those books have their place, right? They agitate us. But my book is trying to take a conceptual thing and going, these are some things you can do about that in your everyday, normal life with constraints, limitations, and opportunities in it. And lots of early feedback has also said it feels like a conversation with a friend, like a companion, you know, somebody coming alongside you, hopefully. And I hope people can hear that voice as they're reading it. It's quite conversational in style.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

As we've said, stories and seeing it done by other people or seeing those elements of ourselves in other people. So important, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I mean, we see someone else do it, suddenly it's capable for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

That's right. And in my work, like in my coaching, in my workshops, and I always include anecdotes and stories. That's probably part of my style because I know that pennies drop when you hear examples from real life situations. So that's a big theme in the book.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Definitely. So, as we'll say again, make sure you go and pick up a copy of Hannah's book.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

What's one myth about purpose that you think people have?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Well, I've said already, I think sometimes people think purpose is what somebody like the Nobel Peace Prize winner has and nobody else. But I also think purpose can be seen as a moment in time or an aha or a destination. I think that's another myth. I just don't think it is. I think it's something that we grow in our understanding. And I don't think it happens through what we do. It's more about learning who we are and how that shows up and the different assignments, chapters, seasons of our life that we're in.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

And my last question, I think, about purpose. You've talked about how purpose isn't just about us.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

And I think that's important because I I don't know where I heard it years ago, but your talent plus helping people equals your purpose. And I was kind of like, well, how can I help people? Maybe the podcast is something to do. 100%. Even if it's just a little bit of inspiration.

From Values To Small Actions

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

Totally. There is so much data that the most purposeful, happiest people, best well-being, have an element of their life that is not just about serving themselves. Adam Grant calls them otherish people. They're called all sorts of different things in different texts. But this idea of there is an element of my life where I am doing something that of course it will benefit me because anything we do has a benefit, but you're doing it for a reason other than your own ends. And for me, that's a real clue to purposeful living. Something that connects you to your community, something that benefits a group of individuals. It doesn't have to be charity, but something that is like, what can I do? Mentoring someone. It could be as simple as that. It could be, I'm going to give you a bit of time. Also, just that generosity of the resources that we have. People who have that outlook are happier individuals. They're more purposeful. So another question I'd say to people, when you know what you have, what your talent is and who you are, what is a way for you to think about using that generously in some way, shape, or form? One of the activities in the book, which is really important in the Lighthouse chapter, I've spent a lot of time crafting it. You look back, you look ahead, you then try and look at the next three months and what would that therefore look like. But then there's another bit to it where you go, right, now I've done all this work. How do I add in a slightly more generous, other people focused lens to these goals that I've made? So for example, if it was that you want to spend more time with your family and eat your dinner around the table more often, maybe that slightly more other-ish version with that would be one night a week, we have people over who would otherwise be eaten alone. So there is that element that you add in, which is your small act that actually will give you so much back in return.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:30

That non-selfless act.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

Yeah, totally. And you know, there's always a self in it because we feel good because of it. But that's like that's a really good. But there is so much evidence around deep happiness and contentment that comes from having an element of our life that we choose to say, I'm doing that because it will benefit somebody else. Time, we have time, we have money, we have resource, we have our talents. Any of those opportunities are our way of doing that. So that element is in the book, also that there is a push throughout the book to think about other people.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

That's important, really important. My last thing, I've gone back to one of the, you know, we see it on Instagram all the time, all the Japanese words. Yeah. I keep going back to it. It's the age old one for my icky guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Icky guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

And it's a combination of what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs, what the world needs, and what you can get paid for, right? Do you think you're living your connected Venn diagram, Hannah?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

As far as I know, I feel pretty happy that I am. Again, I would always go back to that homing of device thing. Am I exactly right there? Am I AirPods right here? Am I right on it? No, probably not. But am I moving closer? Am I moving in the right direction? Yes, I think I am. And that for me is good enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:43

Wow, that's pretty amazing. So I guess I've got a couple of closing traditions for the Creative No One podcast. We like to ask people for a quote that resonates with them, and also a suggested guest that you think would be an interesting future guest to come on the Creative No Well And podcast, Hannah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Okay, so my quote. I've actually just changed my quote as we've been talking, if that's okay. I have made a decision to give you a different quote because as we're talking, it came to mind. I thought this is really important to me at the moment. It's really famous. I'm just going to read the quote first of all. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. That feels really important. Serenity prayer. Serenity. So famous. And really because it's just it's in a universe, again, universal challenge. How do I get the serenity to accept the things I can't change? How do I find the courage to change the things I can? And how do I find the wisdom to know the difference between those two things? And that is a really important quote.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

That's what you need. That's a really important quote for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:45

The other one I was going to share was Theodore Roosevelt's Around the Man in the Arena. That's a classic.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

No, but it's a great one. You've got to put yourself in the arena.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Yeah, really important.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

There's a lot of talkers in the world, not a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:55

Not the critic who counts, and I keep reminding myself of that. And then in terms of future guests, Esther and Susie, Esther Stanford and Susie Riddle, who have limited time only podcasts, would make brilliant guests. They are creative in the narrow sense of the word and in the wide sense of the word. They are very funny, they're very honest, and they would be a brilliant duo to have on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:17

Perfect. Hannah, what do you want to leave the creative Noel and listeners with? Apart from you can listen to Hannah on a very Hannah has her own podcast. The book is out now that you can be available to buy or download.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

What do I want to leave them with? I think I I would want to leave them with this potentially slightly cheesy thought, but I think it's really important that there are things about who you are that are unique to you that nobody else can do. There are things on this planet for you to do that are only yours to do. You know, what things are out there for you? And to know that your contribution really matters. And when you turn up to a meeting or you turn up to a space and you don't show up and bring that, it's missing from the room. And I would love everyone who's listening to take more responsibility over that and to think when I don't show up fully, that's missing from the room, the table, the conversation. And what does it look like for me to do that? I think I'd like to leave them with that bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

Well, that's perfect. Hannah, thank you so much for doing the Creative No Land Podcast. I think purpose is so important. And I think I want people to understand that it's never too late to find your purpose. I don't care what age you are, what circumstance you're in, and your book is a testament to that. There's practical stuff that people can go and implement to help you live the life that you want to live.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

Yeah, do it. Let's do it. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Creative Noeland podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Noeland shop. And here's the bonus. When you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So, before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So, thanks again for listening, and until next time, explore, inspire, and create.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way. And so, therefore, it's so important to consider this question: what do I decide?