#0036 SKETCH AVENUE - ELEVATING IN A CHALLENGE!

Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast. 

There are always hurdles on any journey, especially on a creative one; some people may fall and simply give up, and then there are others who can face challenges, however tough, and they seem to elevate and rise to it!  They may not know how, while they’re in it, maybe it’s forced upon them, but they just do it!

And our guest on this episode is a great example of that. We’re joined by ceramicist Ayesha Bibi from Sketch Avenue.

Looking at Ayesha’s work, it might be hard to believe that she only began working in ceramics a couple of years ago.  

But she took on the challenge of learning a new skill head-on and now creates the most incredible pieces, which are often abstract yet ergonomically designed and inspired by everything from architecture, the Bauhaus movement, and even pop art. 

Now she may be relatively new to ceramics, but Ayesha has repeatedly sold out her collections, and her work can now be found in locations all over the world, including LA and Dubai. 

But not only that, in 2025, Ayesha featured on the UK TV show, ‘Be your own Boss’, where she was mentored by 'Not on the High Street' founder, Holly Tucker.  Which helped give Ayesha more confidence to push forward and develop Sketch Avenue further as a business and a brand 

She’s definitely been busy.

Now, you might be thinking ok, where are the challenges?

Well, the journey for Ayesha to get here is a long one, and I could tell you all of the hurdles that she's faced along the way, but surely it’s better to hear about them from the person who faced them, overcame them, and who elevated in the face of every challenge put in front of her.

So…

You can check out the links to Ayeshas social media and website to see the amazing work below:

Hope you enjoy this episode of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

SKETCH AVENUE WEBSITE: https://sketchavenue.com/

SKETCH AVENUE INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/sketchavenue_/

Transcript

Defining Sketch Avenue & Ceramic Style

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noah Lamb podcast. Now, there are always hurdles on any journey, especially on a creative one. And some people may fall and simply give up. And then there are others who can face challenges however tough, and they just seem to elevate and rise to it. They may not know how while they're in it, maybe it's forced upon them, but they just do it. And our guest on this episode is a great example of that. We're joined by ceramicist Aisha Beebe from Sketch Avenue. Now, looking at Aisha's work, you may find it hard to believe that she only began working in ceramics a couple of years ago. But she took on the challenge of learning this new skill head on and now creates the most incredible pieces, which are often abstract yet ergonomically designed and inspired by everything from architecture, the Bauhaus movement, and even pop art. Now she may be relatively new to ceramics, but Aisha has repeatedly sold out her collections and her work can now be found in locations all over the world, including LA and Dubai. But not only that, in 2025 Aisha featured on the UK TV show Be Your Own Boss, where she was mentored by the not on the high street founder Holly Tucker, which helped give Aisha more confidence to push forward and develop Sketch Avenue further as a business and a brand. She's definitely been busy. Now you might be thinking, okay, so where are the challenges? Well, the journey for Aisha to get here is a long one. And I could sit and tell you all of the hurdles that she's faced along the way, but surely it's better to hear them from the person who faced them, overcame them, and who elevated in the face of every challenge that was put in front of her. So, you can check out the links to Aisha's work while you're listening to the podcast, of course, but for now, let's get into it. This seems to be a bit of an underlying thing for you, Aisha. Yep. But let's talk ceramics. Okay. You are an Uber creative person, but ceramics is the main thing right now, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Right now, ceramics is the main thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

And the brand Sketch Avenue.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So the Brand Sketch Avenue has been in the background for a long time. And when I used to work in interiors and property developments, all my favourite projects were always on an avenue. In like a big swanky avenue in like London or whatever. Big mansion houses, just really gorgeous buildings to like work in, like a as a blank canvas.

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Because I was going to ask where the name came from, and that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah, that's where Avenue comes from in Sketch. Like I sketch 24 hours a day.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

So Sketch Avenue, what are we kind of calling that? Like a the umbrella brand that encompasses you and your whole creativity?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

I think so. I think it covers most of what I do. And there's an element of branding there.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

But also it's really open. So whatever I do still falls into that.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

But shall we talk ceramics? Because this is how we met.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

It is indeed, yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

I saw your amazing work and then we had a bit of a chat and we worked out that we've got quite a few little interweaving connections that we didn't know about before we actually had a conversation. But ceramics, how would you describe the ceramics that you create?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

I'd say that the ceramics I create are abstract, quite architectural. Again, it goes back to my interior architecture background. Really bold. Yeah, they speak for themselves, I think. Ergonomic, because that's where I was heading with tactile and people with motoring difficulties and things like that. So that's a big part of my ceramics. And it's given me like somewhere to put colour where I didn't always have that advantage when I was in interiors because it's limited by the client and not everyone wants to go wild.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Yeah. And that's how I would describe it. I've described it as sort of like pop art in ceramics.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, pop art, bauhouse, you know, uh a bit of brutalism, kind of all mushed together.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

But ceramics is quite a new thing for you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:49

It is. It's very new.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Which is crazy to me when I look at the work because from my naivety, it seems so advanced and you seem so far along that sort of ceramics journey. But actually, you only started pottery post-COVID, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, only about a year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Which is kind of mad because as we're sat here now, you've got pieces that you've sold in LA, Dubai, you've sold out markets, you've been part of a television show called Be Your Own Boss, which was Holly Tucker, the founder of Not on the High Street. Correct, yeah. And she sort of acts as like a mentor. She has been there.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:29

So there's been this quite fast progression through it.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

There has, strangely. I wasn't expecting any of it, or I hadn't really planned for any of it either. Just started doing what I love doing, not knowing that I actually loved ceramics. And then it just it's just evolved. Just got me out of the house, meeting people, talking to people every day, meeting other creatives, and the work just got developed.

From Fine Art To Intimidation Of Space

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Is this the point where we need to go backwards a bit and talk about the journey to get there? Possibly. Because you actually studied fine art.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I did. I studied fine art over 25 years ago, I think. Did you do any ceramics as part of that? I think I did a little bit. I made a cup.

SPEAKER_05 6:09

You made a cup?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

I made a cup, I made a giant cup, a giant blue cup and saucer in my degree. But I didn't really uh follow that through or anything. It was more installation work that I was focused on.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Can we talk a little bit about that? Because like you say, it was lots of installation work experimenting with virtual environments and public spaces. And then you said something to me that I wrote down that I didn't let you explain when we spoke. What is an intimidation space? I knew you were gonna say that.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

So I used to have dreams when I was little, and I'd always be like in this place or this city, and these buildings were so vast and so big they'd just haunt me. That's where the intimidation of space came from. And I found with my art, I played with that. So I'd make sculptures, like spatial sculptures, so like white dental plaster, really shiny bowls would be like placed inside them, or really colour blocky kind of shapes, mainly block bowls I embedded into plaster, and then I'd create these like little videos where there was like people standing on the edge, like almost on the edge that you you could fall off, or people tearing in really uncomfortably, and things like that. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Why bowls? Because obviously, then my my quick thinking that connects to the ceramics later on.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

So you can't climb out of a bowl.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

You can't climb out of a bowl.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

So that was intimidation factor.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Is that like crabs in a bucket? Yeah, but then that's interesting. So you did your fine art degree and you were headhunted after your degree show as a result of these kind of spaces, these installations, these that led to essentially a 10-year-plus career working with luxury developments across the world with interior design and spaces. And you worked with a an exciting young company in in London.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Correct. I worked for a company in London who had the advantage of a lot of investment, which meant we had a lot of free reign in what we produced as the interiors, or essentially our artworks, and they were show apartments, so we could go all out and source from all over the world and create these really intense, immersive spaces. And with that, we could bring in lots of technology that hadn't been used before.

SPEAKER_04 8:27

You spoke about in a pre-sort of Netflix age where you were doing all this stuff and kitting all these places out with these servers that you could just access any film. I mean, now that seems like completely normal. You just go on Netflix Prime, whatever these, we're not endorsed by any of these, by the way. If they want to sponsor us, they can. Um But you can just find whatever, can't you? But this was a while ago, didn't we?

High-End Interiors, Tech And Panic Rooms

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Oh, this is a while ago. Um, so this is going back 18 years, maybe, maybe longer. But we basically had servers that had all the films put on them, depending on whether they wanted 200 films, 300 films, whatever. And they'd play out this server, which was in your kind of plant room in your house with all the other electronic gibbons that operated your house. So panic rooms, lighting, heating, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Oh, they were that extreme. There were panic rooms. There were panic rooms. I can't even imagine having a real panic room. What were they kitted out with these panic rooms?

SPEAKER_02 9:24

So everything looks pretty normal, but in case of an emergency, everything shuts down. So they're basically in this safe box.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Yeah, a safe box. Yeah. So these are these are clients with mega money?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, I would say so. And could be endangered.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Oh yeah, I suppose the more money you have, the more likely, I guess. Not a world I'm ever gonna be a part of, I don't think. But that must be interesting. And how was I mean, you weren't putting bowls in these spaces, I'm guessing, but how was the crossover from what you were doing at university in these installations moving into the interiors of these wealthy?

SPEAKER_02 10:02

I think it was the freedom of material use. So I was able to source materials from all sorts of places, quarries where I could handpick the marble or the granite or whatever it was. I was able to go out to say somewhere in Italy or whatever, and actually handpick the grain, handpick the pattern. And that was something really unreal because it's not nothing I imagined I'd be doing in my wildest dream and in my 20s. I didn't really appreciate it. I just thought, oh, this is just work. And looking back now, I'm just like, wow. Yeah, I had no concept of what I was actually doing. It just seemed like a very unrealistic world looking back now.

SPEAKER_04 10:40

But when you're in it, you just sort of get wrapped up, oh, that's completely normal. I'm going to an Italian quarry to pick some marble.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

That's it. That's it. You don't think about it. It's like, right, I need to source this and I need it yesterday, so I need to go now, pick out everything, have everything milled, and put on a boat to ship around the coast.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

Wow. That's quite the job though, isn't it? Really? I mean, when the budgets increase, I guess does creativity increase for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 11:06

I think creative freedom increases. Not necessarily creativity, but I think having access to all these components certainly help when you're building something or designing something. You know, you can go out and you can look at material, you can touch material, you can experiment with material. I think that the developing side of things is funded. So then you're able to express what you want using the materials that are right for you, as opposed to being limited to say MDF and it can only go so far. Well, budget, budget restrictions. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

And it sounds like, from what we've discussed, it sounds like it was quite intense. Long hours, very demanding, not many holidays.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

No, not many holidays.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Burnout on every round every corner by the sound of it.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, I don't think I had a holiday for about seven years.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Really?

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, yeah. It was just constantly on the go. And one of the projects that I worked on lasted the best part of five and a half years, so there was no definitely no holidays. Wow. During that time. Yeah. I've sold on the promise that you could take as much time off as you needed when you needed it. If you had the availability, it turned out we didn't have any availability to take any time off.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

And that puts pressure on, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:15

It puts pressure on. It's it becomes your lifestyle, it becomes everything you do.

Burnout, Sexism And Walking Away

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Did you feel that when you were in it? Was there, I mean, I suppose during the early days of it, it's probably just exciting. But what was the point where you got a bit like, oh god, this is so intense?

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I think the moment where I where it started to get really intense was when we had a an A V project for a client who was very well known.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

And that's audio visual project. That's audio visual.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

And uh that was my turning point of my and I was just a bit like that's not what I want to do. Like, I want to work in audiovisual. But it was exciting because it was something I didn't know about and something I actually found interesting, and then just went head first into it all.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

So you were really working across so interior design, sourcing products, and then all down to the technology, the panic rooms, all these. It sounds so diverse across the spectrum of ininverted commas interior design.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Absolutely, down to like plumbing and electrical circuits. What was the worst bit of it? Funnily enough, right? The worst bit was actually the final finishes. Because by the time we get to final finishes, I didn't care anymore.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Oh really? I don't care anymore.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

There's just so much coming together. It's just towards the end where you've got to do, I don't know, like curtains and cushions.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Just like soft furnishings on, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Listen, let's just get someone to come and do that.

SPEAKER_04 13:37

I just made a panic room. I don't care what cushions you can put in it.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Exactly. It was yeah. I used to think that final finishes were gonna be the thing that I was gonna be most excited about. But I went in there not knowing anything about interior design and interior architecture. I learned everything day by day on the job, as and when it came up.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

What do you think they saw in your degree show that made them think, whoa, this person's gonna be brilliant for our young, exciting, up-and-coming design business?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

I think it was really playful without me actually realizing. I was creating spaces that could be changed without changing the space, so with lighting or by moving a couple of objects and things, and it could change the environment quite drastically. It can make it really cold or really warm or really cozy or whatever, but just by moving a few elements, and I think that's what they saw in my degree show. So, yeah, just manipulating space.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

I just asked a question because this idea of the intimidation spaces, it doesn't sound very friendly, welcoming, warm. No. And I think to myself, oh, what I wonder what that design company thought. Oh god, yo, let's let's get the girl that did the really intimidating spaces in to do all these really expensive interior designs.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

I mean, I might be wrong, but I think if they just saw that I wasn't fearful of the project brief, I would just go and push it as far as I could and push myself to the limits and not really have any kind of like reservation about presenting an idea. Did you feel quite fearless back then? I had no awareness. I just had no awareness. I was just like, right, this is what I I'm feeling and this is what I'm planning to do. And you know, it wasn't even a case of what do you think? But a lot of the time, it was like, I really want to do this, it's gonna look like this, it's gonna feel like this, and this is what we need, and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And it's just I think my lack of awareness probably um got me up a few steps. I think as I've got older, I've become more aware of things, and that limits sort of creativity in some way.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Yeah.

Single Motherhood And Neurodiversity

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Because I think that ties into some of the story later. But it seems like yeah, the fearlessness of youth. I mean, you don't call it fearlessness, but I think there is that maybe that naivety where you say where you just go, no, I really want to do this. Yeah, yeah. So can we?

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Exactly. And if we can't, how can we?

SPEAKER_04 15:51

Yeah, exactly. And that's problem solving, isn't it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

And you move to London?

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I moved down there because I wanted to get into this company.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

That's pretty cool. And then it went on to lead to panic rooms, sourcing marble, exactly, audio, visual, films on servers, pre-Netflix.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

That's very cool.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

I must have taught you a lot.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

It absolutely did. It taught me. I'm not the best organized person, but it taught me to be sharp on my organization skills and have everything, every document prepared and ready and every answer to every question, because it was going to be questioned by the investors continuously because ultimately they were funding it. If there's 20 grand on a projector, we want to know whether why is it costing us 20,000 pounds?

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Like what's so special about that projector.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Exactly. So, yeah. Had to answer every question.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

And you were doing these big projects. You even did did you do the whole house in? Is that where the Beatles used?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Um yeah, where the Beatles used to hang out back in their heyday.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

That's quite a cool claim to fame as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, it is pretty cool. But again, in my twenties, I had no concept.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

No, you don't though, do you? You just do. You just do it and go, yep, this is the stuff I'm doing. And then I guess with hindsight, you go back and go, God, that was That was pretty spectacular. Pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

So we've spoken about the pressures of the job, but you also said it it felt quite a lot of pressure being a woman in that job. Absolutely. Why? Can we talk a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Well, I was definitely the youngest in the team, which was already notable. And there just wasn't many women in that industry at all. I mean, ultimately it was construction. You say interiors, but ultimately you're on a building site day in, day out, measuring and working things out, and that comes away before any design work goes in. There was never any women on site. There were builders, surveyors, architects, and very few women. I think we had one girl who was the health and safety officer. That was it. I think I was the only female in a team of 170 people.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

Okay, yeah. That's not a very diverse group of people, really, is it?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

No, no.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Did you feel like you had to prove yourself in that male-dominated world?

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah. I mean, I don't think I realised at the time, but I looking back now, definitely I was constantly like trying to elevate and prove myself to be like the same as everybody else, where we shouldn't have to be. But yeah, definitely felt the pressure from like the male design team of this like young girl coming in and wanting to do XYZ and like really ambitious plans to change things. And there was a lot of sort of like, well, we don't do that. And it's like, well, why not? It was like, why not? And why can't we? Or let's just try it. How I maybe look at like younger people now going, Well, are you sure?

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Right, okay. Yeah, I suppose you've got some young buck coming in and going, they want to do it this way, but we've never done it that way.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

And then as a woman, you met a partner.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

And your boss at the time didn't really like that. He sort of future thought the process and was like, Oh, this one woman in 170 people, she's got a womb. She's gonna want to get pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I called him on the Sunday before I was coming back to London to say that I'd got some news and he said I don't want to hear it.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Really? Because he'd already preempted what that was.

Translating In Hospitals & Finding Purpose

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, he was like, No, I don't want to hear it, I don't want to know. You're just gonna leave and have a baby and have a family, and that's gonna be your most important thing in your life. And I was like, Yeah, I still want to do my job. Right. You know, that shouldn't alienate me from my work. Um did it. It did. It did. It pushed me into a corner and I was treated very differently after I announced that. It actually meant that I ended up handing in my notice.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Oh, is that bad?

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, yeah, it got really silly. Yeah. Yeah. I went completely freelance, moved up to Warwickshire and worked on the areas of the project.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

I said you almost felt like you were just starting again.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, it was, but it was also, I think it was the right time to make that move as well.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Did you feel like you were burning out a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

I was burnt out. I was definitely burnt out and uh yeah, I needed a change of scenery, I needed a new challenge. And I think that was a time where I started to evaluate how the longevity in actually doing what I was doing was going to be. Because it you couldn't do that. It's like traders, they burn out, you know, it's intense, it's 18-hour days. You can't sustain that for any kind of normal life.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Sounds like it's 18-hour days travelling, demanding clients. So then you meet your ex-partner, you're pregnant.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Do we want to discuss? Should we go down this way? I mean, we we started by saying, you know, elevating a challenge.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

And I want to sort of express that life hasn't always been the easiest for you, has it, Aisha?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

No, sometimes some of the challenges I take on aren't the right challenges. But due to my naivety, I take them on nonetheless.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Okay, should we talk a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, so my boss was absolutely right when he said this guy is gonna run you to the ground. And he was talking about my partner that got with, and he did.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Do you want to say a bit more? What in what way?

SPEAKER_02 21:05

He was abusive and controlling, and tried to dis dictate every element of my life and having got pregnant, he actually announced that he owns me.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

I beg your pardon?

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

He actually said that out loud.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah. He got very violent and physically abusive. So that had to come to a head in the end.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah. And what did that feel like for you? But bearing in mind you'd sort of had your boss tell you that this guy was gonna do this. And I guess my question is what is your mental state when you've got a baby? You've split up from this abusive partner when you're a single parent, you've got to kind of process like that?

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Absolutely. My entire life plan turned itself on its head.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Well, that's what I sort of mean. This high-flying world of jetting around choosing marbles and yeah, you know, doing locations up where the Beatles have stayed, just suddenly being, oh, I've got a baby and I'm back in the Midlands and what the hell do I do? And this is my whole point.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

Elevating a challenge. You are in a challenging spot now.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

What's your mindset like at that point when you're I was a mess. Really?

COVID, Health Crash & Rethinking Life

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah, I was I could not think for the life of me. Like everything felt like it was moving so fast around me. But I couldn't get on that train. I couldn't figure out which door to take or anything. You know, do I move back to London? Do I go back into the same industry? But then what do I do with my child? I'm a single parent, his father wants nothing to do with him, so I'm going to be bringing him up on my own. Can I afford to do that in London? How safe would I feel in London bringing up a child of my own? Do I need to be around friends and family? Do I need to move to the countryside? What do I need to do? It was lots and lots of choices. I came to Birmingham because one of my best friends lived in Birmingham. And I ended up moving in with my best friend, and he helped me with knowing the sort of early kind of stages while we got settled, found a new home. But it was just, I think it was like three to four years of absolute chaos and handing my son around to people so I could do a little bit of freelance work here, a bit of photography here, a bit of this here, a bit of that here.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

This is where your overall creativity comes in, isn't it? You're literally just using all of these skill sets to try and support a young baby that's. Should we talk about Noah?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

He's not a young baby anymore, is he?

SPEAKER_02 23:35

No, he's 15, he's going to be 16 this year. It's nuts.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

But Noah had some challenges, didn't he, when he was younger?

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Noah did have some challenges. Noah still has the challenges, but we just we manage those challenges differently. So Noah is autistic, he's ADHD, and he has developmental coordination disorder, which means he struggles with like spaces and gripping things and managing his kind of surrounding spaces and which seems a bit interrelated to what you were doing at university, what you've done for a long time. Yeah, I think Noah's shed a huge spotlight on me. You know, the whole thing about apples and trees, and Noah's challenges have taught me a lot about myself. And some of the things that I struggled with as a kid that weren't seen when we were younger. Whose challenges have taught me to be an adult. Can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_04 24:27

What do you mean? I know you know what you mean, but I'd like to try and expand on that if we can.

First Ceramics Class: Frustration To Spark

SPEAKER_02 24:31

I think before I was mum, I was kind of naive to the world. And I thought everybody was like really lovely and really supportive, and you just bounce like a bouncy ball through life, and you get the results you want, and you have a nice time along the way. But having got together with his dad and having Noah, it really turned everything on its head. It took me to a really dark place where I could not understand how anybody could be so unkind. And actually, I had not planned to bring up a child on my own. And having thought about when I do have a child, the kind of life I'd want to give my child was very different to what I was able to offer him at that point, and it made me really upset. And I was constantly sort of resentful to myself for not being able to provide what I wanted to provide for him, and that was the absolute basics, you know, which you would expect food and a roof. There was a point where I couldn't provide that for him, and I had to seek help. And growing up as the sixth child to my parents, I always learnt to fend for myself. I was always last in line, so I always figured it out and worked it out and never had to go to my parents for anything.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Are you thankful for that now with Time Slow?

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Absolutely, absolutely, because I think that taught me so much resilience and so much like troubleshooting, problem solving. Okay, we've got this situation, what we're gonna do. It didn't come easy.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

Which is what creativity is, isn't it? Problem solving.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

And can we just talk to me a little bit about the family? Because I remember we had a conversation about obviously the creative path is not one that parents like us to pursue. No, they want you to be a I don't know, academic. Academic of some sort.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, no. So my siblings are all academics.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

And that's what I mean. That's kind of interesting. Yeah, the sixth child that's had to do all the problem solving. Yeah. No wonder you're the creative one.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. When it came to going to university, my parents were adamant that I was going to do an academic degree. They wanted me to study law and get a proper job and able to support myself.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

And how did they feel when you said I want to do fine art?

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Um, they they didn't take it too well to the point that I lied to them for about a year.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

Really? And you actually lied to them for a year and they thought you were doing something a different degree.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

It took a while to uh convince. It took a few um exposed life drawings to bring it to light.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Really?

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah. It took it took a while. But then it wasn't accepted until I got my first job after university, really, because it was like, well, what are you gonna do? You're gonna paint walls? What are you gonna do? You're gonna what are you gonna do with this? Right. Fine art degree. You know, you're gonna do some pictures in your sketchbook, they're not gonna earn you any money. There was a lot of that.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

I mean, you lied to them for a year, so you really I was scared. I understand that, but what I'm also trying to get at with the listeners is that you made certain sacrifices to follow your creative dream.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

I did.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

I did. And when you were very much under pressure to follow that like your siblings, that academic route.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

When you had to lie about it. But but everything works out for the best in the end. So this time with Noah, you're on your own. The challenges are there, you're doing anything you can.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

To put food on the table, keep a roof over his head.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Keep yourselves healthy, sane.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

All of those things.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

So whilst I didn't know about all of his neurodiversities at this stage, I knew nothing about it.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

How did you end up noticing those things within?

Community Studios, Practice And Sharing

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I didn't really notice so much. So when he went to nursery in Birmingham, they pulled me to the side and said, Look, we think he's got some challenges. And because I was so overwhelmed by moving to Birmingham, not having a home, not having any of the kind of basics, I was literally like, Look, I need to go to work for the two days that you have him. I can't cope with anything else. You do what you need to do, kind of thing. And left it to the nursery, who then handed it over to the school, and they started to seek sort of diagnosis or assessment for his autism. That was the first thing that they picked up on.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Were they explaining to you how it was manifesting within him?

SPEAKER_02 28:37

No, there was nothing. I didn't know anything about autism. I didn't know anything about neurodiversities. It was just completely new to me. I just thought this child doesn't speak and he's just a boy. Maybe he's just going to take a bit longer. How long was he non-verbal for? About five years, maybe five years and a half. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:53

That must have been quite concerning.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

It was upsetting. It was upsetting. I had a three-year-old nephew that could speak and do everything, but my son couldn't. And I was looking for reasons why he couldn't. And it was like, oh, maybe it's because he's not around other children. Maybe it's because he's always with me and other adults, that he doesn't feel like he needs to play with other kids. And he wasn't very good at playing with children. He was always quite engaging with adults, but not so much with children. I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was just, I don't know, I've got no comparable. So and not another sort of not a partner that you can bounce things off, talk about your child together. That's a lot of pressure, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

For you, I'm talking about. I mean, I'm I wonder how Noah must have been coping, but for yourself, that must be.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

It was hard, but looking back, I didn't realise it was hard because I just thought that's what you did. So I just did it.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

I suppose hindsight's such a crazy thing, isn't it? When you look back and now we live in a time of neurodivergence, information is quite readily available for people and it's out there. So creativity and all of that sort of stuff just takes a complete side note. And the focus for the next what 10 years is Noah. So what are you what are you doing in that time yourself when you're focused on Noah and trying to raise him with his challenges?

SPEAKER_02 30:12

I think I came to the point where I very slowly and resentfully, I'll put my hand up to that, realised that I was going to be his like sole parent, and I was completely responsible for everything that went into him. And then I just, it was like, nah, this is my mission. This is my 100% mission to make sure that this little boy has all the nutrients that he needs. And I don't mean, you know, things he eats a bit like the way he's brought up. All the inputs are possibly. Noah drove me to do what I was doing. I struggled for so long with I just want to go back to my industry, I want to go back to my career, but I've got to be responsible for this little guy who I want to be responsible for, but quite rightly I should have some help in this, but I don't. So I was quite resentful for our relationship for a long period of time.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

That's like there was this love-hate thing going on for this guy, this little thing is stopping me doing the career that I love, all these creative things that I love.

Markets, Confidence And Accessible Art

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah, which was bizarre. And then it got to the stage where I think no was about seven, and he started getting really upset and saying, Mummy, I'm stopping from doing what you love doing. And I'm he was picking up. He was picking up on this. And I it took a couple of times, and I was like, Hold on, I'm doing this all completely wrong. He should never feel like that. He should not feel this at all. What am I doing that's making him feel like this?

SPEAKER_04 31:35

What was it that you felt that you were doing that he might have been picking up on?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

I just think maybe conversations I was having quite openly with friends and family and things, not considering that he was actually taking this in and not realizing the impact it was having on him because he was starting to understand. I think he's always understood, but wasn't as vocal or verbal. And seeing him upset, saying, I really want you to do what you want to do and you have to look after me.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

It was God, that must have been heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah, really hard. And we're so close. We would be naturally because we're all always together. That was probably the turning point of I realised. I was like, no, this guy should never feel like this. I am everything to him, and I need to be, you know, until he's old enough, until sort of the tables turn, so to speak. He needs to be made to feel like he's wanted and loved. He's already feeling like he's not wanted and loved by his father, and I can't also reflect that on him. That's just awful, and that's not what I'm about at all. And that's that was never my intention, but somehow it was showing and I wasn't aware.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

So was that then the catalyst for you to go right? What is it that I want to be doing? That must have had a massive impact on you.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

So from that moment on, did you want to sort of change that to set an example to him almost as well?

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Yeah, I wanted to show him that as a parent, you do whatever you need to do to protect your child and set them up for a good future, or the best of what you can do, because that's all we can do. So I had to rethink what I was going to do with work and stuff like that again.

SPEAKER_04 33:14

And at this point, are you still just dipping into freelance things to sort of get money essentially? Yeah, essentially pay the way.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Essentially, yeah. And then I looked at another option. I was at a friend's dinner party and I was just talking about what I was doing and stuff. She's like, sounds really demanding, but what have you as soon as you're multilingual, have you thought about doing a bit of translation work? Because it's literally on your doorstep. And I was sort of like, What do you mean? It's like something I can do as another extra activity, which meant I didn't have to take any homework home or finish things at home.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

This was quite important, right? So you used your multilingualists, um were a Bengali translator and interpreter, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

And that's something like you say, it's not defined by anything, it's a skill.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Leave it at work, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

It's a skill, you leave it at work at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

And then the focus can be on the child. On your child.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

And my home life, yeah. So that was a gate absolute game changer. Because with the photography work, I was going out to do a wedding or a shoot, and then I was editing all night, and then I was tired for the next day, and it was just like that constant vicious cycle.

Merging Bauhaus Aesthetics With Function

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Again, in hindsight, though, looking backwards, did Noah see you doing that translation job? Did he consider that creative as what you wanted to do, or was that again just he sees it now as it was a means to an end?

SPEAKER_02 34:33

I thoroughly enjoy doing translation work and interpreting work, and I was always really excited about it, meeting different people every day and helping them sort of understand medical language.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Was that the environment you were working in?

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Yeah, I worked in the medical environment. So again, it was an environment I was not used to, no idea. And it taught me a lot about the other kind of side of life. Like I worked in luxury interiors, luxury lifestyles, people, private medical care without any thought, and then working with patients are relying on the NHS and relying on someone to explain that they're dying or whatever it is. Um Did you have to do stuff like that? Yeah, yeah. One of my first jobs, the very first one I took, literally had to explain to the guy that he'd been in a car crash and he didn't have long to live. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

That must leave its mark emotionally on you as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

100%. I don't think I'd ever forget that day. I thought, oh, this is gonna be really I mean, I didn't know what I was going into. But I thought, you know, it's an hour booking and I'm gonna go in, interpret some language, and leave. Not thinking actually the depths of emotions that are involved in the situation like that. There's a reason why you need a legal interpreter because they don't leave it up to the family because the family don't always want to tell the relative uncomfortable kind of news. But I remember leaving the hospital and phoning my sister going, I don't think I can do this. They're just like just the first one. Maybe you need to like offload and speak to the company you're working for, but they'll I'm sure they'll have someone that you can speak to, because this must happen every day. And then I thought, no, you know what, I'm not gonna be defeated by this. This is so weak of me to just throw the towel in after the first job.

SPEAKER_04 36:18

Did you feel that you're weak?

ITV Opportunity Amid Grief

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah, I felt like I couldn't do it. But then I also felt, hold on, I've got this unique skill, and this vulnerable person is lying there. And if I hadn't been there, he wouldn't have known what was happening. And he has a hundred percent right to know what's happening to him. It took a couple of weeks, and I then started to feel really passionate about it. And like filling that gap where I've been in a foreign country when I don't understand what somebody's saying, and I just need to get to a destination. And I I know how vulnerable that makes you feel when you're in a space or environment and you don't know how things work and you don't understand what's going on. And that sort of reflecting back on myself and reflecting on the work I used to do before, I was like, oh my god, I this is my calling. This is a hundred percent what I need to be doing right now, and I just threw myself into it. It was that rewarding that you Yeah, I still do it in little bits and pieces up to now because it just always feels like I'm giving something back. It keeps you kind of like regulated with the real world, with like real things that are happening, and it's not all, like I say, fancy mountains.

SPEAKER_04 37:24

That's what you say, as I say, fancy houses, luxury living, yeah. To come back to tell some poor guy that they're about to pass away.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

Is quite the balance, quite the leveling experience, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Yeah. And I think I needed it.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Why?

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Because that there was that part of me who just wanted to get back into my industry because I knew how it worked. I was comfortable, I knew what I was doing, I knew it was easy, I could earn money and I could be really comfortable. But then with all these things that were happening in my home life, and then that just wasn't realistic though, was it?

SPEAKER_04 37:56

You can't get back into initial 80 nowadays and all those sorts of places.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Not at all. And this job was like really super flexible. Work around my child, around other creative work I was doing, and just the kind of emotional grounding it gave me. It was just like this is perfect, this is the right time for this because it's actually going to teach me a lot about me being a parent as well.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

Was there something about your lifestyle previously that how do I word this correctly? That perhaps felt a bit selfish, and now this idea of giving back, it sort of feels a bit more balanced.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Totally. The timing was impeccable.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Like it just psychologically as well, f did it feel like something you needed to give you that some balance time. That quiet time.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

Some I've got some purpose, I'm doing Yeah, yeah. Does Noah speak Bengal?

SPEAKER_02 38:47

He understands uh maybe five words.

SPEAKER_04 38:50

Really? But then I guess I mean, if you're not growing up surrounded by it the whole time, I guess in your household everyone was speaking. Or parents, grandparents.

Production Chaos, Mentorship & Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Yeah, so for me, we went on a trip and stayed in Bangladesh for 18 months, and that's when I learned. So before I went there, I didn't speak a word of Bangalore. My siblings who are older than me don't speak it as well as I do because they hadn't got that kind of lived-in experience of the language. So yeah, it's funny. And I as a creative, I love anything creative, so language. I'm just like, you know, give me a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

Do you think you found that easier as a creative to pick up the language? Because there I can only anecdotally speak, I speak a little bit of Spanish.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:29

But my stepfather, who is an academic, has tried to learn Spanish, and it and he it's very difficult for him because he wants to learn every single verb ending, wants to learn every single structure.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

And there's something about an academic that's like you can learn all that, but it doesn't be making mistakes, having conversations, throwing yourself into them without a bit of fear.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah.

unknown 39:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Yeah, no, I love language, and I'll try and pick up bits and pieces. I know bits of Spanish and French and lots of other countries where I've been to, I'll try and pick up something. And I think having the kind of baseline of knowing Bangla, it's so similar to so many other languages. And when you go to the countries that are surrounding that country, you always recognize words and phrases and even like mannerisms and whatever.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Is that how it works? The structure of those languages in that region. I mean, on I know French, Italian, Spanish, it's all romantic, there's based in Latin and all those things. And that's similar in that region.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, so Bang was based on Sanskrit, so it's like very close to like Hindi, but also relates to like some Thai and Burmese, and it's all kind of a blur. And I think if you know baseline or for language really well, then you can grapple the surrounding languages. Yeah, no, it is cool.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

And like you say, rewarding for you to find. I don't want to say your purpose because I feel like you've found that later with creativity, but if you were feeling a bit lost in the world, I think, like you say, that that grounding element to it is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yeah, it is. It's definitely cool. I just felt every time I went to meet a patient, like they somehow became part of my family or something. Like I didn't have a chance to use my mother tongue anywhere else until I had this got this job. And it was like, hold on a second, because even to my brothers and sisters never speaking Bengali, they always speak in English. Or we banglish. It was like a bit of both.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

Banglish and banglish, yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

So yeah, but I never really had the chance to like exercise it properly, and that gave me that opportunity, and I used to absolutely love it. Like, I'd go to my parents and saying all these words, I'm like, You're actually talking to him.

SPEAKER_04 41:32

But really, yeah, I know it is cool. What's your creative practice looking like at this point then? Because you said that creativity almost took a it did take a back seat.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Noah surviving, putting food on the table, roof over the head, clothes on your back. That was the priority. What are you feeling at this? Because you are inherently a creative person.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yeah.

Ergonomic Design For Real Needs

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Going back to that conversation that Noah had, because I'm trying to get to the grips of what your creative practice around that time looked like. I mean, you said you found a grounding, you found a purpose, but after that conversation you had with Noah about mummy's not doing what she wants to do. Do you think he maybe saw a shift in that? Or did you start creating a little bit more?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, I think definitely. I think I started to take on more local residential projects with doing so back using the design skills that you design you using the design skills, but having the balance of having the interpreting work. And I felt like that was probably in more of my recent years, the more kind of like balanced life. So I was still working on really high-end residential properties, but I had this interpreting work to balance it out, and the connections that I was making with having that kind of in my soul were different to how it was 10 years before that. Where it is very fast-paced and very like, you know, um I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

What do you mean by that? The the translation interpreter job almost slowed you down a bit in terms of your design work as well?

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah, it slowed me down and actually made me appreciate the skills and the connections that I'd made from being in interiors previously. And it made me realise that I didn't work want to work for a certain type of client, that I actually wanted to work for people that were nice and grounded in themselves.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

I see. So it wasn't just about oh, this Russian billionaire's come to me with their money, but he's actually a war criminal, so I don't want to work for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Well, yeah, yeah, there was there there was some of that.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

There was some of that.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

We won't go too far into that in case we end up on a list of some sort.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Exactly. It taught me to be more selective about the people that I work with. It was almost like less is more.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

And I got And balancing that with a little bit of financial security from the interpreting and all those sorts of things means it gives you that little bit of more freedom.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

Exactly. And being able to work with a with the right type of client, you can work at a different pace in a different style. And it can be more almost a bit more family-like. So yeah, that was like COVID when I worked on a couple of bigger projects.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Before we get to COVID.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

Before COVID, you went through again elevating in a challenge. You had some sort of battle about wanting to homeschool Noah that you had to go through.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Yeah, I realised the school that Noah was in wasn't serving him very well.

SPEAKER_04 44:25

Due to his neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Due to his neurodiversity, and you know, completely appreciate funding at schools and what resources I have in the mainstream schools is really challenging for the teachers and sort of how everyone's managed. It wasn't until we had lockdown that I realised that I was doing something massively wrong for Noah in terms of education.

SPEAKER_04 44:45

Say more, what do you mean what made you feel like it was wrong?

Words, Women, And Starting Conversations

SPEAKER_02 44:49

So we had our challenges and it was going back and forth from school, but nothing was actually being resolved. And I was turning a blind eye to it a little bit. And I was kind of putting my trust into the system, thinking it's a school, and they're gonna want the best for my child. But it turned out that wasn't the case, and they may not have had all the resources that they needed, but they were actually just dimming this little boy and leaving him outside the classroom and saying that he wasn't able to learn. Where I did know different because I brought him up, but I know what he's able to do and what he's not able to do. And it's when I started, when we started the sort of the first period of COVID where it was locked down and the kids were being sent work from school to do at home. They'd have like bronze, silver, and gold to do. And I just thought it meant you do bronze, silver, and gold. You start with the bronze to do the stuff and then you do the gold. So I just handed it to him and said, Oh, here you go, this is your work for the day. And we'd both start like nine o'clock and by a quarter past ten and be like, I've finished everything. And I was like, What do you mean you've finished everything? There's loads of work. And he's like, I've done the bronze and the gold and the silver. And I was like, Oh. And I check it through and I was like, There's nothing wrong with it. Why are they saying that he can't learn? Why he's not grappling any of it? Well, what's actually going on here? So I spoke to a few people at school, Zenko, etc. And I was like, This is his work, this is what he's done. And she sort of said, Well, are you helping him? I was like, I haven't got a clue what this is. You know, like it's taught so differently. I don't I don't know what half of this stuff is. And they were like, Well, he's not able to do it at school, blah blah blah, whatever. And I was like, Well, he seems to be perfectly capable of doing it at home, so there is something missing in this equation. And I was like, right, I want to have him assessed for his autism. And she just point blank went, No, he doesn't need an assessment. No, but you're also telling me that you're leaving him outside the classroom so he's not able to learn. So there's something here that's not been dealt with. Cut long story short, I had to go through all the assessment process myself. It kept getting rejected, had to keep appealing. It went to court, it went to tribunal. We had to represent ourselves through this to get him removed from that school to then put him into another school. But in that interim period, he had to be homeschooled because he had no school to go to.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

So yeah, that COVID was another challenge then. COVID was intense, like not a seven-day week work.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

There was no sort of furlough, there was no anything, and I'd got this huge project I was working on at the same time, and this legal battle to fight online because nobody was face to face with anything.

SPEAKER_04 47:18

Did you feel overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Incredibly. I think that's the most overwhelmed I've been in my life.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Really? Yeah, yeah. Even past having the new baby and being on your own.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

That was something else. That was literally something else.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

Wow.

unknown 47:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

That sounds pretty, pretty intense. But COVID's also an interesting time, isn't it? Because among the other challenges, didn't you get quite ill?

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I did. I got COVID and I didn't recover. I had long COVID for a long time and then developed an autoimmune disease and a a little problem with my heart and stuff. But I survived COVID, is the way I look at it now. I was like, you know what? It could have taken me and it didn't. I fought through it and I'm working on still getting better and improving. But it meant I had to change what I was doing in terms of career. I wasn't going to go back.

SPEAKER_04 48:03

You were bedbound and everything, weren't you?

SPEAKER_02 48:05

I was. Yeah, I couldn't get out of bed, couldn't feel my legs, couldn't function, couldn't do things with my hands.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

It was just my whole body was And as a mum trying to raise a young man in the world, trying to go through all this stuff in courts and tribunals to get him homeschooled or put into a different school that suits his needs more.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah. Yeah, intense. I mean, you are swimming through the shit.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Yeah, but again, shows once again to our listeners the elevation during these challenges. None of these challenges have ever beaten you.

unknown 48:35

No.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

They might feel obviously. They've come close. Yeah, but hindsight again, you can look back and go, shit, I did that. Yeah. I did that, and I got to do that. We do though.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

I think we do that. I think when we're faced with a challenge and there's no there's no other way to get through, you you get through, you find the strength and the attitude. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's fight or flight, and you've just got to do it. You never dream of being in these any of these situations. You never think it's gonna happen to you. Things that happen in domestic violence, it happens to somebody else. You read it in the papers, never happens to you. Yeah, you know, it's somebody else's kid that's struggling with a school link, not yours. It's never you, is it? Yeah, it's always somebody else until it's you, it's on your doorstep.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

So bedbound, an autoimmune disease, you can't move your legs. I mean pretty buggered. I didn't want to say, but that sounds like, oh my god, that's so intense.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

But yet, through all of this, through the challenge, there's something inside you that's saying, God, I'm not being as creative as I want to be here.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

So with a bit of recovery and a bit of time, yeah. Am I right in thinking this is where this is where ceramics. This is where we found ceramics.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

It is. I was sat in my living room with two of my friends, and they said, like, you can't sit at home doing nothing because it's not who you are. It's not good for Noah to see you like this and feeling sorry for yourself and not being able to function. We've booked a ceramic course. We just start next.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

So it was actually a friend that booked it for you. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah, it is very cool. Because that means you've got wonderful people in your life that are looking out for you and going, no, Aisha's not happy. Yeah. Let's do something. Rather than just going, meh.

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SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah. And it was that whole thing of like, I can't do that for myself. I felt guilty. It's like ceramic courses are quite expensive. I can't spend that on me. I need to spend it on my child. And it, I'm not even earning that much at the moment. So I need to, I can't, I can't possibly do that for me. It's that whole like parental guilt, which I'm sure lots of parents feel. It's a luxury to go and do something for yourself as a parent.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

But it sounds like it was very needed. It was needed.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm very grateful for having amazing friends. And yeah, they're literally like, no, it's done. You know, no one's gonna be out of school. So you've got zero excuse not to turn up and just get on with it. I think for the first session, I was like, this is awful. Oh, really? It's so hard. I can't, you know, I can't wedge the clay because of the rheumatoid in my hands, let alone throw a pot. And then everything was just flying off everywhere, and I was like, this is horrific. Second session, I was sort of like, I'm not even gonna go. And then I was like, no, come on, pull yourself together. Just take the pressure off. It's not, you're not looking for an end product here. Just go and have a play. And I think it was like six weeks. I kept going and I was just absolutely horrendous. I thought I was creative and it was beating up my sort of sculptural background. I was like, I can't, I just can't do it. What is wrong? So I said to my my tutor, I was like, look, this isn't gonna work for me, but I I don't want to leave the course without anything, so I'm just gonna hand build something. She was like, Oh, yeah, sure. All right, why not? So I hand built this like monster cookie jar, which didn't fit together very well. But I was like, I've got something, I've got I've achieved something from this six weeks.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Nothing else comes to this and I've got a cookie jar.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

I've got it, yeah, exactly. And then I was like, no, either I wasn't listening to her, or I'm just like so set in my ways and determined to learn everything by myself.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

Um did you feel that? Did you think that you'd almost put some barriers up for yourself?

SPEAKER_02 52:03

I think I got to like week four, and I was like, I don't think I'm even listening to her. I think I'm just so cross with myself that I can't do it, that I'm just just trying to figure it out for myself. And I was like, that's so silly. You know, she's you're sort of spoiling it for yourself. Exactly. Giving you like IKEA instructions on how to do it. And I'm just going, no, because I've never used a packet of Ikea instructions. I build where it is without looking at anything. So yeah, I was really frustrated and I was sitting online and I was like, I'm just gonna have a look at how much they are. I was like, wow, they're like£5,000. I can't afford that.

SPEAKER_04 52:34

Sorry, what is five pounds? The wheels. Oh, sorry, the Potter's wheel is five.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

And I was like, Oh, I can't afford one, I've got nowhere to put it either in my tiny little house.

SPEAKER_04 52:41

And I went on the interesting, even after that sort of militantness of like, oh, I can't do this, but I'm gonna look for a potter's wheel until I can do this.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Yeah, but I hadn't even thought about doing it. I was just like, oh, just gonna have a look to see how much they are kind of thing. And then I found one on eBay for like chips, basically, and it wasn't like a professional one, it was like a Chinese bootleg version.

SPEAKER_04 53:06

Okay. Like what we would call like a Timu Potter's wheel or something like that back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Yeah, and second hand on top of that. So I was like, it might not even work.

SPEAKER_04 53:14

Right.

Creative Community & Closing Moments

SPEAKER_02 53:15

But the impulse was still there to Yeah, I think it's that whole if I can't do it, why can't I do it? And I need to be able to do it, I need to figure out how to do it. Somewhere in the background. So anyway, this wheel turned up, I bought some clay and I just started playing with clay in my living room. And Noah being the way he is, absolutely detested me being in even in my in our own houses. It was like this is disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

The change of space, the dirtiness, all those things.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

This is disgusting. He stayed upstairs for two days.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

Oh blessing.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Despite me saying I've cleaned everything, it's no, I'm not coming downstairs because it's disgusting. So yeah. And I was like, okay, I need to figure out how I'm gonna do this.

SPEAKER_04 54:27

Again, it's so interesting to me because you're sort of I see elements for myself, the creative in me. It's like the stubbornness. You don't want to be beaten. No, I can't do something, but I'll bloody learn how to do that. So you don't know that's the creative, the problem solver in you, I think. The only way out is through all of these things.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

So you're making stuff at home, it's causing chaos. Noah's not very happy.

SPEAKER_03 54:53

Not at all.

SPEAKER_04 54:54

So is this where you find Sun Dragon?

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 54:57

The membership and they've got kilns, they've got wheels, they've got all the stuff that you can use. It's away from Noah.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

So yeah, yeah, it's away from our home, away where I can just go off and have my few hours a week or day, whatever. And yeah, I just begged and pleaded until they let me become a member. Because I think you're supposed to have X amount of courses behind you before they let you loose in their member studio where everything, all the chemicals are out, and it's you need to have a bit of knowledge that I begged and pleaded. And I was like, I just need to just need let me in. I need to be creative, and that was it. That was it. I created some stuff, started posting on Instagram.

SPEAKER_04 55:34

But is this where you feel like your ceramic work took a bit of a leap forward because you're getting that hands-on experience, you're saying beating out those frustrations of oh, I couldn't do this before, but now I can do this. Yeah, and now you're practicing it. Yeah, the skill sets coming in much further. And and we're quite late on, we're so it's what's that, 2020.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

23?

SPEAKER_04 55:57

After COVID. Yeah, so 2023 after COVID.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:01

So not long ago.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Not at all.

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SPEAKER_04 56:03

And like you say, you start making some stuff, right? Start making some stuff, and doing what people do, putting a bit on social media here and there. Look at my little cup. Did you feel a bit like that at the moment, putting it out there going still feel like a bit of an imposter, but look at my ceramics that I'm working on.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

I think joining the community studio gave me some confidence. There's a shared amount of skills there, and like you could you could ask anybody, like, how do I do this? How do I do that? And somebody always wants to help you or wants to give you some information, even if you haven't asked for it because they know that you know that it's gonna help you. Yeah. And I started talking to more and more creative people, and it was the first time since being in Birmingham that actually come in contact with creatives.

SPEAKER_04 56:42

I guess because your focus had been you, Noah, family, roof overhead, all those things until you open yourself up to that creativity within a region.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:53

You don't find it. Yeah, and spin, like I say, being surrounded by people in the in the uh community space, you pick you're picking up all those little bits which will the the doing. You are the classic example of what's that famous thing where the one class is asked to make one pot at the end of the semester, but then another class is asked to make as many different pots as they possibly can. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll be graded at the end of it. And it's always the people that have made a hundred pots because they've ironed out mistakes, they've learned the technique. They're going, oh, yeah, the clay went flying off the potter's wheel at that point, or I didn't use the right wire to pull it off. All of those things because they're learning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Yeah, that just opened me up to the creatives locally and just friendship groups that I couldn't have dreamt of.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

And that community, did that give you encouragement to start sharing the work you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 57:44

Because there is some trepidation behind that, especially for something that's new.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Yeah, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 57:48

Did you feel that trepidation about oh god, I'm putting my first like you said, my first little pot, even a bit patronizing around it with yourself.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

You don't mean that, but no, but it's quite daunting, I think. I think lots of artists feel like this, like sharing their work is really personal.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

Well, we've spoken about that. Making making and creating is an act of bravery in itself, especially if you you're going to share it.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Exactly. And I think there was a huge element of that, like showing something, but not feeling sure about it and not really not even knowing that much about the medium or what you were actually doing. So there was little bits sort of coming through, and then uh someone I didn't actually know very well at the time sort of reached out and said, Oh, we do like a community market at Christmas. Um, you should bring your stuff along and sell it. And I was like, Sell it? You must be joking. I don't know what I'm doing. She's like, Oh, I love it. I want to buy some pieces.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

Did you feel like a hobby to you at that point?

SPEAKER_02 58:36

Well, I didn't know what it was, to be honest. It felt like mental healing and therapy. Yeah. I think that's why I got so into it because it was giving me quiet time and time to process my thoughts and just relax.

SPEAKER_04 58:48

Had you got past the fact of you worried earlier about it being this selfish act, doing something for yourself? Yeah. Are you sort of I mean?

SPEAKER_02 58:55

I realised how important it was for us as a family.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

I realised how important it was.

SPEAKER_04 59:00

Well, if mum's not happy, Noah's never going to be happy.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

And what it was reflecting back to him, I was so happy and so engrossed in this new thing that I'd found, and there was no pressure.

SPEAKER_04 59:09

And did that feel like a great example to set him? Look, after the conversation we had about not doing the thing that I'm passionate about, look how passionate I am about this.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Exactly, exactly. And he saw that straight away.

SPEAKER_04 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

He saw that straight away.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

So much so that didn't he get involved with you with the markets?

SPEAKER_02 59:23

Yes, he did. It's quite big, right? It is. So I did my first market and I think I sold out 90% of the stuff, but the stuff we forgot to take out the suitcase.

SPEAKER_04 59:31

And going back to that imposterism that we speak about, did that just go, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

I was stunned. I was like, these people must be crazy. What are they doing?

SPEAKER_04 59:39

It must have elevated your confidence, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Yeah, no, totally. And I had Noah by my side doing kind of all the payments and things like that, because he likes all the techie bits. So he was like setting up the card machine, doing all the payments, you know.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

So great for both of you in a way, really feel confidence in creating, but also Noah in social skills, his confidence being in spaces that he probably doesn't know or would never been before.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

Exactly, exactly. But he could almost hide in the behind the table where he's doing these calculating bits, but he's also out and he's also now learning to speak to somebody who doesn't know and to even if to say, Oh, you know, it's£20 or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

Was that nice to watch for you? Yeah as a mum.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

It was really nice. And it was that this stage it became less about me wanting to make and sell stuff that actually, if I do this, then he's gonna do this.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

Because he actually said, didn't he? He said, Can we do that again? Yeah. And you're like, better make some more stuff then, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

It was it was him that said, Oh, let's do it again. That was really fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:30

That's so cool after those early conversations that he's seeing you, inspired, creative. He was part of it, and you're both part of it doing it together.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

Yeah, and he has been since.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

That's very cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Yeah, yeah, it's really nice. It's really um warming.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:45

You didn't overthink it then at that point. It's just feeling, well, this is good for me, this is good for Noah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Should we just apply for more stuff, do more markets, make more stuff?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just I wasn't making to any kind of like brief. I was just making whatever came out, whatever I felt like making, and just playing. And I hadn't played with material since like being at university in the first year, where you play and find out what materials you want to work with, what mediums you want to work with.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:13

So this first art market, was it the sort of stuff you're producing now, or was it a bit more basic?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

It's still quite similar. I mean, it was a lot smaller, and I was creating small pieces. And what I call them straight away was um objects of desire. So small, pocket-sized things, affordable, but desirable and usable. So I want them to be functional, look really cute on your table or your shelf or whatever, and be at a price point that anyone could accessible. Yeah, accessible, exactly. And that was always really important to me in art because as we know, art is often perceived for the elite, and it's like, no, I'm absolutely against that. That's not what it's for everybody.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

And I suppose that was my first dabble after so many years of not producing any art, of going, this is art, and I want you to have that. I don't want that to be in a box somewhere, I want that to be in your home or want you to be using it. So even from the early stages, a lot of the work that I was making was architecturally inspired, very Bauhausy, very kind of modernist, with natural, the natural colour of the clay exposed, as well as all the kind of bright bold shapes and colours. And I think it's developed since then.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:27

Um I guess because you're still experimenting at that point as well. So essentially you might not know what's going to come out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Yeah, yeah. And I and I don't know what's going to come out in the next six months. I'm still playing.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

But within that, you've got that experience and you've developed a little bit of a style. Yes. I would I'd say you've developed a lot of a style in the work that you produce, which is very cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:48

But let's go back. Your confidence must have grown during this time. You're doing more art markets, you're being surrounded by now a community of other creatives, must be helpful, lifting you up.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:00

And you had this attitude of, I'm just gonna sort of apply to anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

Yeah. And I did, I just applied to anything that would come up just to see what happens. And more times than not, I'd get accepted, which then put the pressure on me. It's like, oh no, I've got to produce more artwork. Like, I've got to produce more work to be able to sell.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:18

Can we talk a little bit about that? Was that open calls or was it more just craft markets and things where you could be in your space with all of your own product? Because how does that work with ceramics as such with an open call as a piece of art?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:31

There's a mixture of stuff that I did. So everything that's happened has happened in 12 months, so it's been really intense and there's been lots and lots of different things. I'd apply for residences, the one I applied for at Sturchley Printworks and received that was a print one. And I wanted to involve my print with my ceramics as imprint onto the clay, the kind of architectural shapes and drawings that I used to do, or still do, onto clay, and mix those two mediums together. Because often screen print is considered as a flat 2D medium, and yet you've got ceramics, and I wanted to marry them both together. And then all my degree work was around the grey area between painting and sculpture, and where it actually meets in the middle, and where it's still viable and still considered as fine art, because you probably know paintings are considered as fine art, but sculpture is somewhere down that hierarchy.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:20

Same with yeah, photographies.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

Yeah, yeah, it's like second rate almost, isn't it? And like I've always had that.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:27

And there's definitely a sculptural element to the pieces that you create as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:30

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

So you're applying to all these different things, your confidence has grown. And this is where you saw a call out for small businesses in the UK, right? Right and again, like, oh, I'll just apply for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:44

Yeah, no thought given.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

Yeah, no thought given. And the next thing, you're approached by ITV's production staff to be a part of the TV show, yeah. Be your own boss, yeah, which we spoke about earlier with Holly Tucker, who is the founder of Not on the High Street.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

Yeah, but what's that like?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Intense. It was really intense.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:04

And I suppose we should say when you got accepted for that, the filming started.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Imminently, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:11

But not long after, was it literally a couple of days after your father had passed away?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Yeah, literally a couple of days after my father passed away.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:17

There was quite a big inspiration in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Huge inspiration in my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:21

What on earth are you feeling in those moments where you're going through grief but yet you're still like shit?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

I've got this opportunity to be on a I honestly couldn't put it into words what was going through my mind and my heart. It was just it was like making the choice of do I crumble or do I roll over and fall?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:43

Or do you elevate in a challenge?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

I elevating a challenge.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:47

People are gonna get bored of me saying that, but you said it to me, and I I think it's so poignant for your story. In this situation of grief, you're still setting this incredible example to Noah, you're elevating yourself within a challenge, you're not being beaten, you're using all that resilience of all this stuff that's been in the past. You see the opportunity that comes with this TV show, and you called it a high-intensity distraction from grief.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

Yeah, it really was. And I am uh so grateful for when that landed because it was the right level of distraction that I needed. My father passed away, uh, could have just uh finished me because I was so close to my dad, and my dad has always been a huge inspiration and a huge kind of chilly. For me, in that no matter how ridiculous an idea I came up with, he was like, You need to go for it, you need to just do it. If it all falls apart, I'm gonna be there to catch you, don't worry. Just throw yourself at it. And if you believe in it yourself, you're gonna be able to make everybody else believe it. That was the crux of what he always taught me. If you 100% hand on your heart believe in something, you're gonna be able to make other people buy into that or believe it, but always stay true to yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:02

And this ITV production company and Holly Tucker clearly saw something in your work which let's remind everyone, it's a matter of year and a half, a couple of years old of you doing ceramics.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:15

They must have seen something within your work that they were like, yes, we wanna.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

Yeah, which I'm again I'm really super grateful for. And I had no idea where it was going. I saw a call out and I was like, fine, I'll just I think my card broken down. I was on the bus. I had the time to apply from my phone while on this bus journey to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

The universe is a strange one, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

I mean, ordinarily, I wouldn't have seen it probably. I don't when I'm driving, I'm not scrolling through my Instagram, kind of being like, Oh, wasn't that so? What's this? Let's just have a little whatever. And when I got the call back from them saying, I would really like you to be on the show, or like we'd like to just have a chat with you. And I was like, Oh, yeah, it's just a chat. Next day they had a chat with me. And then two days later, it's like, oh, you did great on the screen test. And I was like, What screen test? They were like, Oh, that that chat we had, that was a screen test.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:59

And I was like, Oh, I thought that was just a chat.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

Like, you know, for the best. I was just like, Yeah, if you'd have known that was a test, I mean put a test on anything, you might have put too much pressure on yourself and been like I was yeah, it was bonkers because I was on my way to a festival and I was already like ready in my festival gear, and I was just like, This is really awkward, but anyway, it's just a quick chat. And they were like, Oh yeah, we think you like I said, you'd be great on TV.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

And I'm just like your festival gear, hell, because you're like, Wow, she's quirky, isn't she? This one, and it's bonkers. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Absolutely bonkers, but yeah, it's great. They just they were so supportive through the whole process. As soon as I started speaking to them, I'd said that my father was really poorly and there's a chance I might lose him, and I might need to pull out from this. And I just wanted to be upfront with them and tell them that anything can happen. I might need to leave the country to go be with my dad, all these things. So I was completely transparent with them about everything. And they were like, at any point, you don't want to do it or you feel uncomfortable, just say, and it's fine, we will take care of it. Throughout the whole process, they were absolutely amazing with me, checked in on with checked in on me every day. They were just so kind.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

And what does that process of being on a television show look like?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

God, intense, really intense. I've never done anything like that before. I'm not comfortable with being on camera, and there was just so many elements to it. It was yes, being on TV, but also the actual amount of work that needed to be produced for this TV show that we only we were only gonna shoot over one or two days. So all the different stages of my pottery had to be kind of staggered, so you staggered to film it, but also it all needed all need to be done ahead because we were only going to be filming on those two days. So it was immense amount of work I had to produce in say two weeks, and getting it all fired and glazed and painted and finished and designed and thought happened in such a short period of time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:52

It was literally like while dealing with grief.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:55

While dealing with grief. And at this point I was losing my dad while I was doing a lot of this. Oh no, sorry, I had just left lost him. But like the prep before was me losing my dad. But if I hadn't had that as my distraction, I still haven't I'm not sure I've completely processed it now. But what would I be doing? It was like they said they were gonna start filming up our house. Like the day after my dad died, I was like, we need to deck the garden. So I just went into the garden, went to Celco, got all the like timber and started decking the garden on the way to my pottery studio so it all looked nice and tidy kind of thing. I mean, it was on my plan to do, but it wasn't my plan to do the day after my father passed away. But again, even that I found really grounding because my dad taught me carpentry skills, and while I was making the decking, I was constant thought, you know, about my dad and reminding myself of what he would say about how to cut an angle and we're safe and all this kind of stuff. He was with me through the whole process. So yeah, that it really helped me.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:02

And what do you think the TV show has done for you moving forward? Because we've spoken about it, you still haven't watched it, have you?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:08

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:09

It aired in November. November. And you still haven't watched it? No. And that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

But Holly Tucker, can we talk a little bit about her? What have you learned from her? Someone who is a very successful businesswoman.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:22

She's incredibly resilient and powerful in the strength that she brings. She's a massive believer of small businesses, and she actually started her career. Her work was making wreaths from fruit. That's how she started. She took part in those markets that I've been doing the last year or so, and then obviously developed her business and strategized what she does. And that's what makes her good at what she does because she also started from the very, very first step. It wasn't given to her. She worked hard, she works hard every day for what she does. She believes in me and other small businesses. She's the first person to shout about you and remind you that you're brilliant and that she believes in you, and that doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:12

Quite reassuring.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:13

Very reassuring.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:15

And what was it like after the show? Because there is that level of comparison. You're looking around at the other businesses on the show, yeah, and they're all branded up, and you see they've got all boxes and all this packaging and this, that, and the other. And at this point, Sketch Avenue wasn't Sketch Avenue, was it? You hadn't really done much branding. It was just you making it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

It was sketchy. It was still, you know, it was still in sort of like initial stages. I was nowhere near an established business. I did a few markets and a few bits and pieces here and there, and that was that's all I'd been doing. So we only got introduced to the other businesses just before the program aired because they wanted to keep everything separate and exclusive. And it was literally like, oh my god, these people have been business for 20 years or 10 years, and they've got like 100,000 followers already. And you know, what on earth? I've got there's me with my thousand followers, not knowing, not even buying a branded cardboard box to put my stuff in. Didn't even have, I think had stickers. That was the only branding I had. I haven't got a website, and then having to do all that overnight.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

And that comparison of yourself to the rest of these businesses, did you feel like, oh my god, I'm so far behind?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

I felt so intimidated by it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:26

I felt so it's also interesting to me that the production company in Holly Tucker saw something within you, the work that was like, oh, it doesn't matter that she hasn't got a brand, it doesn't matter that she hasn't got 100,000 followers. We want this person.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:40

Yeah, I think they definitely saw something in the product and their story behind the product and my belief in what I'm doing. I think it's really interesting that they picked people from all different stages of their business and showed how you can grow a business at different stages and how business develops at different stages. So you don't do the same thing consistently. You have to evolve and you have to change and you have to meet your market needs or your business needs or your family needs, whatever it might be. I think they they did that really well.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:08

And at this point of the TV show, had you developed this because we spoke very briefly at the beginning about how you saw that there was a bit of a gap in the market, or there wasn't ceramic stuff being built around neurodivergence and some of the issues that you'd realised with NOAA.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:27

So you started designing these products that were a bit more ergonomically based, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:33

So is this the work that you were doing before the show?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:37

This was work before I was doing the show. And the ergonomic side of things developed quite quickly. But after the first market or so that I did, I looked at what we had in our cupboards and I was like, we don't even have any mugs. We don't have mugs because they're so awkward to hold. And I've got RA, Noah's got dyspraxia.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:53

Sorry, what's RA?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

Rheumatoid arthritis.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:55

Apologies, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

And we struggle with grip, comfort, and you just get a bowl or something because it's more convenient. I hate eating off a plate, I'd rather eat out of a big bowl, nothing's falling out, that kind of thing. And it was like I started to look at those elements of everyday life. And I wanted to create something for Noah initially that he would feel comfortable drinking out of. That wasn't a plastic cup or got a straw in it or something, something he could feel confident about and really appreciate the design element of it and just it be accessible for everybody. We don't have to have a sippy cup, a blue beaker with a white handle or whatever you get at the hospital. It's like, what why are we still in that era? What are we doing? It's insulting.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:35

But this is where those style elements of your work come in.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:39

Because as as we say, we're not just throwing a mug with a bang average handle. No, we're altering the form. Altering the form, these look like mini sculptures. As we say, your background in sculpture, installation, architectural design. They're beautiful pieces of work.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

Like you say, they're accessible pieces of artwork, but still usable ceramics.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:01

Yeah, that's always important. Having art that you can access, having art that you can use, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:07

But having developed this style, essentially off the back of Noah, your room at all items, grip, all these different things.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:15

You see a million different mugs.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Yeah. But they weren't solving our problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:20

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

They weren't solving our problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

And that shows your creativity, which is the problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:25

But as a result, has developed this style of work that just seems to set you apart from a lot of the other ceramicists that I've seen in the past.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:33

Yeah. There's a lot of talented people out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:35

Yeah, of course. Of course. And this is where you're trying to play it down a little bit, and I understand that, but I'm trying to big you up. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:44

The show certainly shed light on what I was doing, and I have to say, it's been an amazing experience. Holly's advice has been to create a commercial product from the business side.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:54

I was going to ask how much because presumably the show's done now.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Yeah, the show's done now.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:59

But do you still have contact with Holly? Is she still sort of a mentor?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:03

And what have you this was my next question. What have you learned on what are the things you're taking forward from learning from the show?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

Like I say, I was an unestablished business, so to speak, last year. And what I have learnt from Holly, and I was going that way anyway, but I needed a bit of a push and guidance and someone to actually say, no, that's right, carry on doing this, or do this slightly differently, and to develop a more kind of commercial product, so to speak, that's accessible to everybody, not just the neurodiverse, not just the people that are into art, but even anybody. So we developed a line for Valentine's Day with classic song lyrics. I wasn't overly keen to start off with.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:40

But as did it feel too simplistic for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:43

It did.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:44

Because they're beautiful pieces, but they are, shall we say, more traditional ceramics. Yeah. But with elements of your quirkiness in, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:53

Song lyrics you like.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:54

Did the project a little bit about feminism? You'd talking about celebrated being called a MILF.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So they're different things that have happened at different stages of developing what I'm doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:09

The idea around that, that that these things sort of connect. Song lyrics, fun little things, laughter connects. Can we talk a little bit about some of the stuff you did around the MILF and the Yeah, I think there's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:23

So that all started last year for International Women's Day. So again, another gig I applied for, which I gratefully received. And I wanted to do something specifically for International Women's Day as part of my ceramics. And what I decided to do was just put words out there that were related to women that are often sometimes regarded as a negative. Such as, can you give us some advantage? Or things to do with HRT, we don't talk about it. And I wanted to, there's I'm perimenopausal and I don't know anything about it. There's nothing out there to support me. And in doing this, I was starting to have conversations with other women that were coming to my market store and saying, Oh, yeah, I'm a HRT champion because I've sussed it. I was like, How have you sussed it? What have you done? You know, why aren't we talking about this? Let's talk about this. And that's brought a whole load of friendships and conversations and collaborations, which has been great. And it's like, we don't talk about neurodiversity, we don't talk about the dopamine we need, dopamine we seek. It's not for everybody, but there's so many of us out there. It's like constantly seeking dopamine. Let's just put that out there. Let's just put that word out there and see what conversation it brings.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:32

Did you find that when you were doing our markets with this style of work, that it was perhaps starting more conversation?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:38

Absolutely. And I just loved it from the first collection I did. It just got people talking, it got people sharing, it got people starting to build communities where we're like, hold on, there's a new WhatsApp group about HRT and how it's affecting us and how to actually get it and how who we need to speak to. And it's this has all come from a little dish where it started a conversation. But that's how lots of things start.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

That's what art does, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

Yeah, it starts conversations, brings people together.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:05

But did you get any opportunities off the back of the show that say weren't directly related?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:11

I have had a few people contact me about the accessibility side of my ceramics.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:17

In terms of the ergonomic nature of the ergonomic nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:21

No, no. So absolutely, yes. So the ergonomic side, and obviously that's the heart of my ceramics, how we adapt to our objects every day. But I've had some really nice contacts and people kind of seeking out to have things custom made. And I think from the show, that's probably like the winner that I feel that has been the best thing for me, where I've developed a whole new range for a couple of clients who have MS and things and specifically designed for them to cope with their needs.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:50

Yeah, with MS.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

Exactly, exactly. And that fills my heart.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:54

I was gonna say, does that feel slightly more rewarding? Yeah, that's rewarding.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

That's what I want to be doing, that's what I love doing. It's time consuming. There's a lot of maths involved and weighing things up, measuring things out, sizes, grips, making sure it fits the person. Because we're all different, but you know, they've got a few more challenges than you and I. And working with a client like that to design things for them that change their life is just it's the most amazing feeling for me. It's just last week was amazing because I was getting pictures back of like them holding the cups and like how they're using it every day, and then things like that. This is what I want to be doing for the rest of my life. I don't need to retire from this.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:32

Amazing, and again, back to that amazing example that you're setting Noah as well now.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:37

Yeah, he's seeing his mum doing this thing that's inspiring him, yeah, helping others, yeah, using her creativity, and chopping and changing, like changing things up.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:49

Yeah, no, never stagnant. No, and is this a nice place to lead us on to some of your future plans?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Uh what are my future plans?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:59

Getting these commissions, there's more markets, you're doing work with galleries now.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:06

Are you feeling much more confident in your work, in yourself, as a result of this undeniable evidence that you've given yourself that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:16

Yeah, I think this has definitely been the timing-wise the right time to be doing this. I don't think I'd be able to do this 20 years ago. I wouldn't have the knowledge and experience of life to be able to do this. I think there's a huge element of that in what I'm doing. A lot of my work is research intense in terms of learning about the different diversities, the different physical health problems people have and things like that. And I recently applied for a job at a school where they've got challenging needs for children. And this is now gonna form a huge part of my research and access to that research. And again, I think I don't know what's gonna happen in the future because anything can happen and it can take a diversion, but it all feels like it's steady at the moment and it's taking the right steps in the three or four things that I'm doing, and it's all kind of related and it comes together, and I'm really looking forward to what's gonna happen next.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:13

And what happens next? As I say, off the back of working with Holly Tucker, maybe perhaps some slightly more commercial ranges.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:20

I think there needs to be the balance, and because I like to have 20 things to work on at the same time, that's not gonna be a problem, hopefully. I think we need to have the commercial side because it's like the backbone of the business and it brings in a certain regular income. I think the art products that go into galleries have their own place too, and that gives me the time and the space to explore that exclusively without the pressure of that work needing to sell. So that work can go into exhibitions, etc. And then the kind of the middle product, which is specific to the ergonomic and people with health struggles or challenges. So I suppose there's three bits to it currently.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:00

And this new job's gonna help facilitate more of that, isn't it? Again, a bit like the translation was back in the day. It gives you that bit of stability, but you're within a world where you can do the research, it can help supplement, and I'm guessing they're gonna have lots of equipment and stuff that you can explore using, and and again, goes back to that nature of you helping these young people.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:23

Yeah, I think that's gonna be really lovely. And I think that is a little bit selfish as well, because it gives me so much back by helping these.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:31

Well, we talk there's there's no there's no selfless acts, but that's all right. That's all right. You're allowed to feel good for helping people.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:38

Yeah, I guess so. But I yeah, I think it's gonna be a really good experience. I think it's really gonna support my research really well, and having that hands-on experience day in, day out is I wouldn't be able to access that in any other way.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:54

How much time is that gonna take up for you? The teaching?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:57

So it'll be a couple of days, two or three days a week.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:00

Oh, that's cool. So you're still gonna have time to be able to do your own personal practices.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:04

Exactly, exactly. And I need that balance because otherwise it wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:06

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:07

Yeah, it wouldn't work.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:08

And now Noah's a bit older. I mean, I know his challenges. Is he throwing a few pots or is it still too messy? Yeah, it's too messy for him. Does one everything too messy for him? Leave him in the accounts department, though. It sounds like he's good with the money.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's good with money, he's definitely better with money than I am. Yeah, no, he's happy in the accounts department. He's also quite good at photography.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:28

So cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:29

I think the plan is over the summer he can do a lot more of the photos and edits and some of the kind of styled shoots and things like that. So very cool. Getting him involved. Yeah, in the art side of things. I think that'll be good.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:42

Is Noah showing any sort of creative aspirations?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:46

So at the moment, he's studying photography at school and creative media, as well as computer science and all the other kind of the ones you have to do. He's leaning more towards creative stuff at the moment, which is quite scary for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:00

Have the roles reversed now.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:03

You're your parents. Don't go into that craving, it's not stable, you need to get a proper job.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:07

I find it so frightening that I'm turning into my parents. I'm like, no, just do computer science, be a computer programmer, you know. Um, and it's like, no, it's not fun. I'd rather be doing graphic design, it's more whatever, and it's scoring really high only is creative subjects. I'm just like, do you know what? You're gonna find what you love doing at the end of the day, and I'll always support that. Yeah. And if you when you don't love it, you find something else.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:29

Exactly. Any challenge, we always eliminate. Aisha, is there anything we haven't spoken about that you think we should?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:37

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:38

I think we've spoken about quite a lot. I just it's one of those questions I always ask because I can only research people so much, and there might be some major element that I've missed out.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:47

No, I think we've covered quite a lot. I think creative communities are so important and creatives sharing other creatives. I used to feel like people are really quite reluctant to share other people's work out out of some sort of fear or something. To create communities and learn and continue to develop makes us better at what we do.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:09

There's a sound bite for you, people. Lovely, brilliant. So we do have a closing tradition on the Creative Noel Lamb podcast. We ask our guests to give us some sort of quote that resonates with you, and also someone in your world, someone in your network who you think might be an interesting guest to come on the podcast. So, over to you in any order you like.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:30

Okay. I think my closing quote will be she believed she could, so she did. Because I think that resonates well with what I've been doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:40

Certainly does.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:41

And do you always believe I don't think I stopped to consider believing anything. I just think I just rummage my way through it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:48

The only way out is through, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:50

But that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:51

That's that's yeah, maybe that should be the quote.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:53

The only way out is through. Either one is great and work specifically for your story. Yeah. And what about someone in your network that you think could be an interesting guest to come on a podcast?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:04

I think Natasha Tahim would be an interesting person.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:07

What does Natasha?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

She's an illustrator, primarily, but she's been hosting a queer Mendy night for about a year and a half or so and has brought together a lot of community. Mendy's like the henna. Oh, okay. South Asian henna that's applied on the hands. She's pretty cool. I think she'd bring some interesting dynamics to the podcast. Sounds interesting. And then there's another friend which you might consider, Sophie Chandler. She's a decorator and hairdresser. And she would bring a really interesting, both creative dynamic, both very creative powerhouse women.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:41

Have you two done work together with your interior skills and her interior skills?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:46

Not yet, but we've talked about collaborating in the future.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:48

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:50

Well, Aisha, I guess all that's left to say is thank you so much for coming and telling your story on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:57

Thank you for having me, Matt. It's been amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:58

It's my absolute pleasure. And I hope everyone can be inspired through some of the challenges that you faced to just keep pushing forward.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:08

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:09

You believed you could, and you did.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:11

And I did. And yeah, keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:13

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:14

Sharing the spotlight on us the artist is all we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:18

Shine alive. Amazing, interesting, inspiring humans. So once again, Aisha, thank you. Everyone go and check out her work. Thanks very much, Matt. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Creative Noahland podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Noahland shop. And here's the bonus. When you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So, before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So, thanks again for listening and until next time, explore, inspire, and create.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:15

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way. And so, therefore, it's so important.