THE CREATIVE NOWHERE LAND PODCAST

#0038 EMMA BROWN - SURRENDER TO THE PROCESS!

• CREATIVE NOWHERE LAND • Season 2 • Episode 38

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Welcome to the Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

On this episode, we're lucky to be joined by award-winning photographer, visual storyteller, and artist Emma Brown. 

Emma's work sits at this kind of intersection of art, humanity, and process.

Emma creates stunning images using a technique called wet plate photography. And since finding it, she has completely immersed herself in this historic process that was developed in the 1850s. 

A raw, unforgiving, and beautifully imperfect form of photography that Emma describes as a 'Dark mistress. Full of magic and ritual, where you have to just surrender to the process.' 

She's the recipient of the Juliet Margaret Cameron Award, among many others, and her work has been featured in recognised publications like Focus Quarterly, and she's been selected for multiple exhibitions, including The Royal Academy Summer Show. 

But beyond the accolades, Emma's work spans portraiture and music, as well as long-term collaboration projects with NGOs and charities, including volunteering with the Sahrawi Refugee Community in both Algeria and here in the UK. It's her dedication to ethical storytelling that really defines Emma's legacy as a photographer.  

In this episode, we discuss Emma's creative journey. We explore everything from her route into photography, the realities of working in the industry, and we go into detail about the work that she does for unrepresented communities. Where she uses her passion for photography to help others tell their stories through images. 

We go into detail about Emma learning wet plate photography and falling in love with its magic, and why it is just so important to surrender. Slow down and be truly present with the process. 

We talk about the vulnerability of being an artist, putting our heads above the parapet and saying, "This is what I do!" 

And we also discuss why we should all consider taking the 'Un-Path', because the unconventional routes often lead to the most incredible journeys. 

Check out the links to Emma's website and social media, where you can see more of her amazing work. 

Hope you enjoy this episode of The Creative Nowhere Land Podcast.

EMMA BROWN WEBSITE: https://www.emmabrownphotography.com/

EMMA BROWN INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/emmabrownphotography

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Welcome And Meet Emma Brown

SPEAKER_02

Hello everyone and welcome to the Creative Noble Land Podcast. On this episode, we're lucky to be joined by award-winning photographer, visual storyteller, and artist Emma Brown. Emma's work sits at this kind of intersection of art, humanity, and process. Emma creates stunning images using a technique called wet plate photography. And since finding it, she has completely immersed herself in this historic process that was developed in the 1850s. A raw, unforgiving, and beautifully imperfect form of photography that she describes as a dark mistress, full of magic and ritual, where you have to just kind of surrender to the process. And I was lucky enough to have my portrait taken by Emma before we did the podcast, and it really was a magical experience. She's the recipient of the Juliet Margaret Cameron Award, among many others, and her work has been featured in recognized publications like Focus Quarterly, and she's been selected for multiple exhibitions, including the Royal Academy Summer Show. But beyond the accolades, Emma's work spans portraiture and music, as well as long-term collaboration projects with NGOs and charities, including working with the Sarawi refugee community in both Algeria and here in the UK. It's her dedication to ethical storytelling that really defines Emma's legacy as a photographer. In this episode, we discuss Emma's creative journey. We explore everything from her route into photography, the realities of working in the industry, and we go into detail about the work that she does for unrepresented communities, where she uses her passion for photography to help others tell their stories through images. We go into detail about Emma learning wet plate photography and falling in love with this magic and why it is just so important to surrender, slow down, and be truly present with the process. We talk about the vulnerability of being an artist, putting our heads above the parapet and saying, This is what I do. And we also discuss why we should all consider taking the unpath. Because the unconventional rout lead to the most incredible journeys. Be sure to check out the links to Emma's website and social media where you can see more of her amazing work while you're listening to the podcast, of course. But enough of me. Let's get into it!

Why Wet Plate Feels Like Home

SPEAKER_02

Emma, I have just been lucky enough to experience having my portrait taken, which is quite weird for a photographer, by another photographer, but in the most wonderful, magical way. We've just done a couple of portraits of me using wet plate photography. Which shall we just say is your knee?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's right. That's correct.

SPEAKER_02

Because not only you know you're an award-winning photographer, you've exhibited, you've been featured in magazines all over the you've got commercial background. But this wet plate is where you've found a real love, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it feels like home.

SPEAKER_02

Why does it feel like home?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's the it's firstly it's a full circle. Back to how I fell in love with photography in the dark room, seeing the image come up on the plate is just as magical as it was when I first learned photography when I was about 14 and seeing my first image appear on the paper in the dark room. I know lots of photographers have had that experience. But not only is it a full circle moment, it's a very slow meditative process. And for me that is what feels really special about it. In today's far-spaced world, I've taken a step away from that. And I'm working with a process where the exposures are really long, the process is very accepting, and that you need to be focused, but also you need to surrender to the process because you're as much as you think you're in control, it can come back and bite you when you don't pay enough attention. So uh really enjoy the focus, the meditative aspect, and the ritual of making a photograph. And it is a ritual, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

Like we took so much pleasure in just waiting and waiting for the poor and waiting for the image to expose. Like you say, going back to those early days of photography, uh because our route into photography is quite similar. Should we do the classic? Let's should we just go backwards? Let's

Early Influences And Darkroom Beginnings

SPEAKER_02

do it. Where does the love of photography come from for you, Emma?

SPEAKER_00

I think my dad was always into photography, and I remember on our holidays he'd have his Minolta SLR camera, and we would be shooting like one or two precious rolls of film on every holiday, and I was always intrigued by it, and I loved seeing the photographs when they came back. And I asked if I could use the camera, and I first used the camera when I was probably about seven. We were on a family holiday in France, and I took a picture of mum and dad on the balcony of our holiday apartment. That's the first like proper picture I was.

SPEAKER_02

Was that quite precious with though? Because I mean, as you say, back in those days, it it cost quite a lot of money to expose films. You only had a limited number on a roll. So was he did you only get the one shot? I did get one shot, but and luckily when it came back, I was very pleased with it. And clearly it set the wheels in motion for his future career. But you really got the bug, didn't you? So much so that you were got your own camera with black and white printing, and this is the full circle, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is, it is. So when I was younger, because I was so into photography and into the you know taking pictures. Mum and dad bought me a really basic camera. I had a 110 camera. I think a lot of people our age probably would have started as one of those. Yeah. And it my love of photography just progressed from there. I just took a lot of pictures. And then my dad had studied photography, or he did some black and white printing and short black and white stuff when he was at his youth club, and so he helped me set up a dark room at home and he taught me how to process a roll of film, and he taught me how to make a print in the garden shed.

SPEAKER_02

And as we'll explain later on, we have gone really full circle back to the garden shed. We have, yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah. So you're taking pictures. What are you shooting?

SPEAKER_00

Friends and family. When I was like 14, 15, I've shot my mates who were in bands and that kind of thing. You know, I tried to find like cool alleyways in my Wiltshire small hometown. Pretend I was shooting the Rolling Stones or something like that. You know, I'd seen these images on album covers that I really liked, and so I tried to copy the composition and learn about the composition through that, and I was yeah, just experimenting, and your friends are the best people to experiment with, aren't they? Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And what was the moment where you decided that you wanted to take this further and expand your education?

SPEAKER_00

I think it was a gradual thing for me. So after I'd started enjoying photography and learning how to print, I studied A-level art, and there was a dark room at school, but I'd just been turned into a storage room. So I got in there and I cleared it all out and I made it into a fully functioning darkroom again. That's cool. And again, I just taught myself like practised taking pictures, practice being in the dark room, practice printing. And yeah, part of my A-level art project was some photography. And I think I knew then that I wanted to do photography, wanted to study photography, wanted to be a photographer, but I thought I want I'll make sure I'll do a general art foundation. So I wanted to try other things before I really narrowed down my paths.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that was quite a natural progression by them. We all seemed to have to do the foundation before we went to Union.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah. So I I did the same.

SPEAKER_02

But that just reaffirmed your love of the stuff.

SPEAKER_00

It did, yeah. I tried lots of different things as you're guided through the your foundation. You try so many different processes and work with different materials, and I just knew that I knew it was photography then. I I knew going in, and that that year there just really affirmed that I wanted to go somewhere where photography was taken really seriously, and I could be serious about my photography, and I'd be surrounded by other people who love photography as well.

SPEAKER_02

So you expanded that to go to university,

University Life And Learning The Craft

SPEAKER_02

right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah. So I went from there from Bath where I studied my art foundation, to Salisbury, where I studied for my degree.

SPEAKER_02

And it was again quite interesting. We've got these weird similarities. My first camera was a Menolta camera. Your degree wasn't a photography degree, it was called professional communication. It was, yeah. And mine was visual communication.

SPEAKER_00

So very similar, but it was either you chose the photography path or the film and TV part. And up after the first term, they were fairly separate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. How did you find uni? How did you find that moment of studying, or now you're surrounded by other people? I loved it.

SPEAKER_00

I loved it. Um just being, you know, you learn so much off your peers and just being surrounded by people who are enthusiastic about photography, having the resources to be able to have a studio to shoot in.

SPEAKER_02

I'd never, you know, would not What about the other students on your course? Have they had that similar, shall we call it, analogue process of black and white printing? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We were we were before digital, so everyone was shooting film. But was everyone processing right then? Yes, yeah, yeah. We were tot totally encouraged to do that and print. So we learnt black and white printing, colour printing. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02

And you loved it, didn't you? Because you've already told me you had a bit of a love of science, so it all sits together, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so what for my A levels I studied chemistry and biology and arts, so it was a bit of an unusual combination, maybe.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but there it is.

SPEAKER_00

But it was it's perfect, yeah. And now I'm indulging my inner scientists and chemists and my outer artist.

SPEAKER_02

So that's a good way to describe it. So what happens? So you go to uni, you're loving it, you're studying, and then just again, what natural progression you're like, right, how do we turn this into a

Assisting In London And Finding Confidence

SPEAKER_02

career?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally. I was like, Oh, I'm gonna go to London and assist. That's it, no two ways about it.

SPEAKER_02

You decided.

SPEAKER_00

Already decided.

SPEAKER_02

Was that scary?

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Why?

SPEAKER_00

Because I was a little Emma from a tiny town in Wiltshire, and even Salisbury to me was massive. And then to move to London, that's that was huge. And then to start in an industry that I didn't really know much about, and I just had to get on the phone and call people. So I was just calling photographers saying, I love your work, I want to come and assist you. Can I come and meet you? I've just graduated from university, and so I took my folio that I made around with me because everyone wanted to see that. I think people are just interested in seeing how much you care about your work and how you present it, it's not actually content of your work. And I just met loads of people, you know, people who I worked with for years.

SPEAKER_02

And what sort of stuff were you doing? What were you assisting in?

SPEAKER_00

I started off working a lot in car photography.

SPEAKER_02

Which again is this weird similarity. I was the same. I used to work in a car studio. Yeah. Flecking dust off the back ends of bumpers while photographers stared through binoculars.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I worked um cars. Because I wanted to be outside. So I worked with location photographers who were shooting car adverts outside in the landscape, and I was super shy. I didn't have the people skills that I do now, and I just I didn't want to be put myself in a place where I would be uncomfortable talking with like loads of people on a set. But there's tons of people on a car photography set. Yeah. Yeah, I loved it. Travelled a lot over Europe with a couple of photographers assisting on car shoots. But then I started working with portrait photographers.

SPEAKER_02

Goes back to your photographing friends and Rolling Stones covers, right?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally. And then I worked with music photographers. What was that like? Was that I loved it, yeah. It was totally where I felt at home, and there are three photographers in particular that, you know, can I mention names? A big shout out to Paul Ryder, Spearospolitis, and Dean Belcher. Without them, I wouldn't be the photographer I am now.

SPEAKER_02

What did you find that you learn in those situations working with those guys that propelled you forward?

SPEAKER_00

Well, as much as the photographic side, it's about being on set, like working with people that you're only going to meet for one day. You just got to get on with people, you become a team really quickly, you have to, and then you know, your musicians or your celebrities walk in the door, and you just have to be able to strike up a conversation with them. It doesn't matter who they are, you can't be phased by it. And I really enjoyed that, just meeting people and realizing everyone's just a normal person, everyone's just a human being with a story.

SPEAKER_02

And was there anyone that you were a little bit like, oh my goodness, that person?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Richard Attenborough, and he was totally lovely. He's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

SPEAKER_02

But Richard Attenborough, I'm glad he came across that. We all could be turned up on set and Richard Attenborough was an arsehole, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, he was lovely. We went to his house really to photograph him in his garden. He was an absolute gentleman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's a lovely story, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Anyone else that you were kind of like, wow, or that you were like, you know, I've got to meet that person.

SPEAKER_00

There's been so many. I've I've worked with some just amazing music photographers and like people like basement jacks at the height of their fame, and I worked with a photographer, and we photographed behind the scenes at the Empire Awards for a few years. So got to meet Sigourney Weaver, Kate Blanchett, Dentz, Quentin Tarantino. Oh wow. All these kind of people. Great experiences.

SPEAKER_02

But let me say it's that going from being that shy person, the assistant you described it as a learning curve to show you how good you could actually be with person. So it gets you out of that comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00

It does, it got me out of my shell totally, and learning how to be a professional on set and how to be with people, when to say things, when not to say things. Yeah. And just believing that I belonged and feeling like I belonged there. Um yeah, I loved it. So how did you make that transition from assisting to Oh, very slowly.

SPEAKER_02

I think you have to develop a client list and people have to trust you, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and a lot of it was word of mouth. And then when photographers that I was assisting, maybe it was a job that was too small for them. So they would recommend me, and so there might already be clients that I knew, so that would help. Yeah, and it just grew slowly and organically. You know, I didn't have a big into the now I'm a photographer world. It was a real over several years, and I still work with a couple of my mates when they need an assistant. So just because I like being them, yeah, like I don't get to see them very often, we're both busy. So if someone's like, yeah, I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02

So can you tell us a little bit about the commercial work that you were shooting for yourself

Commercial Work And Redefining Luck

SPEAKER_02

then?

SPEAKER_00

I still shoot commercial work, obviously, it's not all wet plates, it's portrait photography. I work with charities, NGOs, I work a lot with artists documenting like big installation art pieces and performances. I work with arts councils commissionly to go to grant big events and performances. I work with the BMA, the doctors' union, so it's all portraiture or magazine, corporate and yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we've all got power bills somehow, Emma.

SPEAKER_00

We have, and luckily I get to pay mine by taking photographs. So I feel like I'm really l lucky and really privileged to be able to do that. Do you think it's luck? I know you have a thing about luck, don't you?

SPEAKER_02

It's not that I don't have a thing about luck. I think that we pass things off quite casually as luck sometimes, but we're a product of the decisions we've made, the life choices, the environments we've grown up in, the positions you've put yourself in, like the assisting and stuff. So it's not you've learned to be good with people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You have to learn this trade.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe luck is a little bit blase, but you know, I know that I've been in situations before. I worked with fashion photographers when I was assisting, and that wasn't really what I wanted to do, but I knew that I was in a place where loads of people would cut their arm off to be where I am. You know, we're on a fashion shoot in the middle of Cuba photographing for this amazing magazine. That's not many people get to do this. It's just quite a life, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is. Did you have to sacrifice anything when you were doing your assistance?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I wouldn't even say that I had to sacrifice personal time because I felt like weekends or something like that. Some people have a thing about weekends, but I felt because I'm self-employed, work in a regular my weekends weren't precious, so I didn't feel like I was giving up. Maybe it was things like going out in the evening and meeting friends after work.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That doesn't happen when you're on a shoot. You you're on a shoot till it ends. You know, you can't book a ticket to go to the theatre or the cinema at 7 pm because you're not gonna the highlight here is you're not gonna make it. So maybe that's it. But again, I didn't feel like that's a sacrifice. I just lived the lifestyle that I really wanted to live. For me, it's just about being a photographer and taking photographs. Exactly, yeah. That that's a good question. I haven't ever thought about that.

SPEAKER_02

I just I just wonder sometimes because I look at exactly that. We came up through the similar route, the assisting, and until you've done it and been on set, you don't quite understand that it's not a nine to five job, it's uh six in the morning till twelve o'clock at night, yeah. If the shot's you know not right. And if you imagine back in those days, it was film. Oh we've exposed to something wrong, or something's not right on camera, we've got the test back, we've got to shoot it again. Yeah. One of those things. But that's why I love it, because our our our route is very similar into the industry. But what happens then? You've been working in the industry a while, you've developed your client list. You obviously got a passion and you're feeling rewarded from photography. But you felt like you were lacking something a little

Rekindling Passion Through New Learning

SPEAKER_02

bit, right?

SPEAKER_00

I did. I felt like I'd got to a really a nice place. You know, I'm working, I'm earning my living through photography, taking photographs and people pay me for it. But I just felt that I wasn't pushing the knowledge of my craft any further. I wasn't learning anything new about photography. I was I'm working as a photographer, I'm running a business, I'm getting new clients, I'm you know, shooting.

SPEAKER_02

If you're doing all that, why did you feel like you needed to progress or do something to learn more?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just felt I like I loved photography so much, but it became a bit of a job, maybe, and what I wanted was to reignite the passion that I always had photography. And it's not like it'd ever gone anywhere. I think I just got so caught up in living life. Paying bills, paying bills, yeah, running a business that I'd not paid attention to the actual craft of photography. My love of photography needed feeding.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I needed to well, presumably commercially as well, yeah, shooting on digital and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

So And you're always delivering what the client wants, and that's not always a hundred percent personally aligned with your own creativity. So you you want to give and you need to give your clients what you want, but I wanted to I just wanted to learn something more about photography. I just felt I just had the itch that I needed to learn more about my craft, so I did.

SPEAKER_02

So tell us more about that, because this takes us to like 2017, to nine years ago. This realization comes you're not pushing yourself in your knowledge. So, what did you do, Emma?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I made a little promise to myself or a little bargain with myself that every year I would do something from then on to push my boundaries of my photographic knowledge and just learn something more about photography that was interesting to me at that moment. And I didn't have any pre-prepared lists or anything. But things came up as

Ethical Storytelling With Refugee Communities

SPEAKER_00

they do. And so, first of all, in 2017, I uh took some training with Photo Boys, who are charity based in Brixton at Photo Fusion Gallery, and they train people in ethical storytelling, I would say, and working with communities to Use photography as a storytelling method to talk to the wider community about any issues that might be happening for them. So it might be about women's safety in certain shanty towns where there's no not everyone has a toilet, so the women have to go somewhere to go to the toilet, but that's dangerous at night and that kind of thing. And often it will be working with people who wouldn't naturally feel that they had a voice in politics or local governance. Yeah, they were able to present their views easier through sharing of photography and actually demonstrating it.

SPEAKER_02

What did you learn working with those guys in terms of, as you say, visual storytelling that perhaps you didn't already know as a photographer that knows your craft very well?

SPEAKER_00

I think I learnt how to teach and share photography without using the techniques. So I teach photography as a storytelling methodology, which isn't based in any, I don't teach anything about apertures, ISOs, or anything like that. No technicality. No technicality. It's all about using the camera to enable people to tell their own story. What I'm doing is giving them the visual literacy skills to understand what they're shooting and encouraging them to really think about how they take a picture, you know, how high they are, whether they're stood up or knelt on the floor, and using techniques like framing techniques and visual techniques that enable them to share what they want to share in a clear visual way. Because photography transcends language. We can show someone a picture. Picture 7,000 words. Exactly. So I had been working since 2012 with a not-for-profit based in London called Olive Branch Arts. So they work with youth the programmes, drama and drama therapy. And they had been working in Southwest Algeria at a group of refugee camps there. So there's refugees from Western Sahara in South West Algeria, in in the Hamada, which is a really harsh piece of desert in the far southwest, near a town called Tindu. And so I went there for a few years with them to document their work. So they work with young people who devise their own pieces of theatre, and then they tour it around the refugee camps, and then they were starting to tour in wider Algeria with their performances. And at one of those residencies, really, I guess, with Olive Branch Arts in the camps, one of the young people came up to me and said she wanted to shadow me. So there's a good education system in the camps, and then the young people go to university in like wider Algeria, or they go to Spain, because Western Sahara was a former Spanish colony, and she had studied journalism and she had a particular interest in photography. So she said, Next time you come in, I can I'll shadow you. And I thought, Oh, that's a great idea. And so I came home and I have another friend who'd done the photo boards training, and like and I knew about it. I was like, that's what I need to do. Not only does she want to shadow me, what I really need to do is be able to give her a camera and help her with her photography skills.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So I ended up not just teaching her, but teaching a group of 12 young refugees. So we take out cameras for everybody, so we teach visual literacy skills, we go out with lots of sort of prompts, and so they devise in the end what they want to photograph, and so we help them create a photo story and the photo series of what it is about their life that they want to share, what they want the world to know about. Was that daunting for you going out and then suddenly 12 students? There's like 12 people plus translators in the room and all looking at me. Yes. So luckily I work with one of the co-founders of Olive Branch Arts, who's a drama therapist. So it was really great having someone who's very aware of people and how much they're engaging, their well-being. So she was very much keeping an eye on that, and I could just really concentrate on delivering the photography training. But yeah, I was terrified. Shall I tell you what I did to co to prepare? I went to had some hypnotherapy. Did you? Yeah, before I went, because I didn't think I was worthy or had the confidence to stand up in front of a group of people and deliver them something that was worthwhile and could be helpful to them in their journey, their journey as artists.

SPEAKER_02

Why did you not feel like you had the confidence in that? Bearing in mind you'd been a commercial photographer. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00

I've always had a fear of public speaking. That's why I'm behind the camera, not in front of it. So yeah, I just didn't I just didn't believe that I could do it without fumbling. I wanted to make sure it was clear. So really I just wanted to work on my own like view of myself and imagine walking into that room as an amazing thing and not be scared of it. And it was an amazing thing. Yeah, it's the best thing that I do is go there and work with these young photographers and mentor them every year.

SPEAKER_02

And this is a massive part of what you do, isn't it? This this ethical story and giving back, feeling like you're helping people tell their story.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, it's huge for me. It's like I said, it's the best thing that it's the best thing that I do. We were talking earlier on about legacy, weren't we? Yep. And I think I don't think about legacy, but I think this is what I would like to leave behind is just an amazing group of young people who love photography and who are inspired to carry on creating and sharing their story and knowing that people outside that we can bring the story back home here, that people are listening to them.

SPEAKER_02

And how many times have you been to Algeria then with I've been going since 2012?

SPEAKER_00

Wow. Um I've probably been about eight times in that yeah. And so that was the first thing that I decided to do in my expansion of photography.

Getting Hooked On Wet Plate

SPEAKER_00

And the next one, I decided to take a wet plate workshop because I thought I didn't learn anything really about historical analog processes when I was at university. Just go and make some wet plates. I love the way they look. There's something about the quality of the images which is really ethereal and otherworldly, probably has something to do with the long exposure, but they're really magical.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um and so when did you start the the wet plates though?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that was probably in 2018. And I saw someone else's work. You know what it's like. You look at something on Instagram and you like it, then all of a sudden I'm seeing wet plate images everywhere.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I had a one-to-one workshop with someone in London, and I just thought, I'll go along, I'll make a couple of plates, I'll learn about the process, and then I can just put that to the side. Tick, box, I've learned something new about photography. Off I go back to normal life. Commercial life, yeah, commercial life. Yeah. But I got completely hooked on the bus on the way home. I was googling where do I buy silver nitrate in the UK on my phone.

SPEAKER_02

Because, like you say, it is such a magical process.

SPEAKER_00

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we'll go into some more of the technicalities of it in a bit, but you really did get the bug, didn't you? You instantly got yourself a 5.4 camera and started making your own website.

SPEAKER_00

So I'd already had the 5-4 camera. I've probably had that for about 18 years, and I bought it because I wanted to be a landscape photographer and not have to speak to any people, which didn't work out at all. But I hardly touched it and I'd almost sold it several times, and now I use it more in the last eight years than I've ever used it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And just a 5.4 camera alone, a lot of people who may not know what that is. It's a much again, it's a slower process. There's no autofocus, there's no none of that.

SPEAKER_00

It's like the simplest camera you can get. It's uh you've got a ground glass screen, you've got the bellows, and then you've got a lens at the front. So you're just projecting that lens onto the ground glass screen. That is it. You've got your aperture, your shutter speed, and your film speed, which with this is half an ASA.

SPEAKER_02

So which is technical stuff that people probably don't know. Yeah, sorry. That's for photography geeks out there. Photography people listening will understand what you mean by that. So there is a lot of technicality around that, but you started making your own plates, you're learning, you're just picking up manuals where you can go, you're finding YouTube videos, whatever technique you can find, right?

SPEAKER_00

Totally, yeah. So I knew when I did the course, the one-day workshop, the woman who taught me recommended a couple of people, and then I got online, I started watching videos on YouTube, like how to mix your chemistry, how to pour a plate, just going over all the basics over and over again. So I got a couple of manuals that were amazing, and I just practiced practice, and fairly soon after I started, I got a commission to make a big project with wet plate working alongside another artist. What was that project? It was working with an artist called Mary Branson, and she wanted me to take wet plate portraits of all of the volunteers at Leith Hill Place, which is a National Trust property in the Surrey Hills. So she had this concept for this big piece, and she wanted me to make the portraits, and so I did. I was like eight months into my wet plate journey. Wow. I felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants.

SPEAKER_02

But was that quite a buzz? Because obviously you'd been paid for your photography work before, but this was so new.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and then being paid for it as well. Yeah, it's uh it was so incredible. Yes. Yeah, and then everybody loves having their picture taken with this process. So the people who were involved who are sitting for the portraits all really love it. It's got that magical bit at the end where you pour the fix on the plate and your picture props out of the cloudiness.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it's unbelievable. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So it's really lovely making something that people are really engaged with.

SPEAKER_02

But you still wanted to learn more, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes. I felt that I'd been teaching myself quite a lot by now, and that I knew that my techniques were rather bumpy in certain areas.

SPEAKER_02

Bumpy, okay.

SPEAKER_00

And but they really needed like underpinning with some good foundations and someone looking over my shoulder and saying, yes, no, do this, do that. So I applied for an arts council grant and I received a DYCP, a develop your creative practice grant.

New York Training And Mastering Technique

SPEAKER_00

And I went to New York for a month in 22, pretty much as soon as America opened its borders after COVID, and spent a month there, travelling around upstate New York, studying with the most amazing wet plate teachers. That sounds very cool. It was heaven.

SPEAKER_02

And there was one in particular, wasn't there? A guy called John Coffer.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Sounded like a very interesting character when we spoke. Tell us a little bit about him and his process.

SPEAKER_00

So he lives off-grid, as if it's the late 1800s in upstate New York. So he he was a commercial photographer in Florida in the 80s, I think. He sold everything, bought a horse and cart, and ended up being an itinerant wet plate photographer while he was studying the process, travelling around America for about 11 years, and then he bought this ranch where he is now based and teaches from it. And yeah, so when I went to study with him, I stayed in a teepee on his ranch. There's no running water, there's no electricity.

SPEAKER_02

But people just make it feel a bit more authentic, though, with the techniques that you were going through.

SPEAKER_00

You got you feel like you are in the hundreds or yeah, it was a lot of fun because it loosened up my like finicatiness. Can I make up that word? Is that okay? Sounds like a good word to me. Thank you very much. So, like, you have to be very exacting and clean with this process, and it can be a harsh mistress if you don't treat it right. You need to take care of your chemistry and be on top of maintaining it. And just being there where you're making wet plates on a farm where there's dust, there's no running water, there's dust, there's little caterpillars falling out of the trees onto your plates, there's a robin's nest over your shoulder in the plate drawing rack. It's not the pristine environment that everyone imagines that you'd need for this process. And it was, I found that liberating. I'd studied previously with the two photographers in Rochester itself, Mark and France Scully Osterman, who were process historians from the Eastman Museum, and they're incredibly incredible teachers, very exacting about everything. Their knowledge is just incredible. But then to go to this ranch where everything was much looser was like, oh, okay, I don't need to worry because I felt like I had imposter syndrome about my darkroom at home, you know, that I'm in a shed. That it's not like a really nice, proper professional environment.

SPEAKER_02

But then sitting there in a horse and car on a ranch.

SPEAKER_00

It made me let go of all that. So I sort of came home totally empowered.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I was gonna ask, were you were you did you come back much more confident in your process and all that sort of stuff? You ironed out those bumps.

SPEAKER_00

Ironed out the bumps, had them ironed out of me by the teachers there. And yeah, I felt much more confident, much more knowledgeable, and that I could cope with any issues when they came up. I could troubleshoot any problems that would happen, that I'd be able to work out what was going on in the process and fix it.

Wet Plate Explained In Plain Terms

SPEAKER_02

I suppose we should say, I mean, I'm sat here with a fellow photographer, so we you definitely know what wet plate photography is, and I know what wet plate is. But should we can you put the process into some sort of layman's terms for people? I know that's a big arse, but if someone has no idea what wet plate photography is, can you sort of explain it?

SPEAKER_00

So it's a photographic process from 1851. You make a plate, a plate is either a tin plate or a glass plate, you pour an emulsion on that plate, which becomes light-sensitive after you've dipped it in a silver tank, and then you treat it like a normal piece of film. So once you put it in the back of the camera, you shoot it, you go back to the dark room and you develop it straight away. If you've done a black and white process, this will be very familiar to you, this wet plate process. But the wet plates, you're on a bit of a time limit, aren't you? Yes, yeah. Hence the name wet plate. It can't dry. No, exactly. From the moment I take the sensitized plate, so basically the film that's ready to shoot, out of the silver box and load it into the plate holder. I've got ten minutes to shoot the plate, get back to the darkroom and process it before the surface dries out. So yeah, it adds a little thistle of excitement to the shoot.

SPEAKER_02

As we said when we started, I've just been lucky enough to have my portrait taken, and I remember the buzz of getting your images back or a bit of black and white printing, or it comes off the machine, and you get to look at oh, I've exposed that horrendously. I need to go back and learn, iron out my own bumps. So it was just a joy. I think we're all so used to digital photography now. Me included. Every job I do is digital.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So going back to that analogue process that has that there's no hiding, there's no retouching. It's science, isn't it? It's chemistry. It is. And you have to be exact. But that magic of that moment when you poured the dev over the plate, and I saw myself come through. I was like, that's why we fell in love with photography.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. I think I will never get bored of that, and that's why I love this process so much. If you get bored of seeing that image come up, then this isn't the process for you. Wet plate photographers will share that all the time, you know, the picture coming up in the dev or clearing in the fix. It's magical.

SPEAKER_02

It's magic, it is magic. You and it goes back to that thing you said, it is the picture comes out of the fog, it's exciting, it's magical, but you do have to surrender to the process because I love about it.

SPEAKER_00

I love the ritual, it's a meditation, I think, for me. Like when I get in there and I'm just about to pull the plate, I take a breath and a moment, and then I go. And sometimes I'm now I've been doing it so much, it falls away, and you just do you just the process just happens and you're doing it. And it it's not that it doesn't need presence of mind, but it's just such uh an ingrained ritual in your in your mind and in your body, you can just go, and that just feels really lovely to be in that place with this process where it feels like I said earlier, it feels like home, it feels very natural for me now. Doesn't mean things don't go wrong, but uh I feel we're equipped to deal with them, right?

SPEAKER_02

But again, sometimes there's probably magic that you wish you could recreate those mistakes, but you're like don't know, you you could you can't, it's impossible.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. So I did I do try and control the artifacts, that's what we call the mistakes, you know, hold really trying to welcome them back into the process now because obviously at the beginning when I tried to learn, I wanted to make a perfect plate with no artifacts, I wanted to get the perfect everything, everything just to come together, and it doesn't happen very often. Now I really want to embrace those things that might be considered faults, it's a sign of it being handmade. We don't have that with digital images, they're perfect from edge to edge. Yeah. But the fact that my fingerprints on the corner of the plate, you can see that it's a handmade thing. It's not just pixels and zeros and ones, it's a real

Imperfections Artifacts And Creative Control

SPEAKER_00

thing.

SPEAKER_02

And you describe the process as a a dark mistress.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've said that a couple of times, haven't I? Yeah, I do because I like it.

SPEAKER_02

I like the way you describe it.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's because the process is exacting and you need to understand your chemistry and like all the ingredients of your chemistry and why they're there. And if things can go wrong, you know, it's temperature sensitive, it's humidity sensitive, and it's a hot, dry day, it's gonna have a vast, yeah, it doesn't like dust. You might be pouring a beautifully clean plate, then a fly lands on it or something, you know. So it's about embracing that, I think.

SPEAKER_02

So um but there are elements of it you can control, aren't you? To say things like you get slightly different tones depending on the fixer that you use. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so we control I control the obviously the exposure, then the development in relation to the exposure, and then different fixers have different tones, and one's much cooler tone than another. So you can make all of these creative choices while you're making the plates. But I guess you do that when you're shooting digitally as well. You know, you know, about lighting and exposure, you can choose where you know composition and things like that.

SPEAKER_02

But this is very much a different anyone that looks at this style of photography would go, Oh, was that shot in the 1800s? Exactly, because they look vintage, don't they? They do, yes, yeah, elements of pledge.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that's partly to do with the long exposure.

SPEAKER_02

You need to 15 seconds. I had to sit still for 15 seconds.

SPEAKER_00

I thought I'd give you the full experience.

SPEAKER_02

It was amazing, but anyone that knows me goes, Matt sat still for 15 seconds. You did very well. Well, I was I was I was determined not to ruin the process, Emma. You told me it was such a unique process, and I'm gonna say it again, I absolutely loved it. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Because not many people are gonna have the honour of having their photograph taken like that.

SPEAKER_00

No, and it's I love sharing it, and it is like a piece of theatre, really, the whole thing, isn't it? I was concerned.

SPEAKER_02

It is like performance art, which is interesting because you photograph a lot of performance art.

Taking Wet Plate Out On Location

SPEAKER_00

Um I have taken this process out to the Regent Street Motor Show.

SPEAKER_02

How does that work? How do you take this process? Bearing in mind I've seen it and it's so controlled.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. How do you take that on location without all your where there's hundreds of people, public walking past this exhibition of vintage cars, have assistants? So I had a dark room set up in the street, so I left one assistant there, and then I would go out, set up my camera, leave another assistant with the camera while I go and make the plates, come back, and then literally we're in the middle of Regent Street holding people out back. I'm counting down my exposure. Um people are photographing us while we're doing it because it, you know, I've got that camera, and I'm underneath dark cloths. Everyone people don't see that much anymore. So people are fascinated, and yeah, yeah, you end up becoming an object of fascination, which is lovely.

SPEAKER_02

We said that, didn't we? Even like you say, most people don't aren't photographed like that anymore, but it did. It took me back, you going under the under the dark cloth, took me back to assisting, being in the dark room, smelling the chemicals. Yeah, it was such a nostalgic thing, yeah. That most people, probably younger people, will never experience because they've never got in the dark room. But again, thank you so much because it was just such a pleasure. And let's just tell it how it is. It's not easy for a photographer to be photographed, or probably for you as a photographer to photograph a photographer.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Yeah, thank you. You made it easy.

SPEAKER_02

Well, no, you I was literally but it was one of those things where I was kind of like, well, Emma's directed me to do this, so I'll just do this, and I'll try my very best to stay still for 15 seconds. But honestly, I can't wait to share them, honestly. I think that they're beautiful. How much of your work is now wet plate?

SPEAKER_00

I would say about a third of my work is probably wet plate at the moment. I would love it to be more.

SPEAKER_02

And what are they commercial? Jobs? Are they back helping, back doing stuff with the NGOs, the charities, or is it a broad mix?

SPEAKER_00

It is a mixture. So we're working with the wet plate, it's more arts funded projects. So we've just worked on a large heritage lottery funded project, something in collaboration with King's College, more arts council funded projects, uh big the National Lottery Project Grants ones. And I have artist residencies in a couple of galleries, and I have had pop-up studios there, so people can come along and have their portrait made. I taught and yeah, people are private commissions. Yeah, it comes from all sorts of I think the word is spreading since I've come back from America in this sort of area. Because I work a lot with artists, people are coming to me. Oh, I've heard about you, I want this process for X, Y, and Z. You know, it calls certain people for certain well, it's so unique, it's such a unique process.

SPEAKER_02

So it lends itself to probably some of these artists that are going, Yeah, I could just photograph it digitally, but actually I want to photograph this process in a much more interesting way.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah. So it's a real mix, and now I've worked with these people, then the network spreads further. People come and see the exhibitions at the end of these large projects, and people go, Oh, I think you might be good for this project. Great.

SPEAKER_02

So should we talk about that? So some of these paid entities, these commercial things, they've still ended up as exhibitions.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, so the heritage lottery-funded projects, artist residency outcomes are ending up in one of my pieces, is just about to go up in Watts Gallery, joining their permanent collection after I had an artist residency there. So we've got another exhibition which is about to launch in September, which is gonna be the beginning of a travelling exhibition as a result of this heritage lottery funded project.

SPEAKER_02

And are these just doors that have opened as a result of you doing this?

SPEAKER_00

Part of them are that, exactly, and part of them are part of the like the funded project, if that makes sense. So one of the outcomes of the project. So for this heritage lottery funded project, an exhibition and a small touring show is part of the outcome. So yeah.

Becoming An Artist And Staying Vulnerable

SPEAKER_00

Do you consider yourself an artist? I don't know. If I was gonna say be an artist, I'm gonna be a photographic artist. Can I have that? Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02

Um well, because I suppose we should say that's how we met. We had work in the same gallery.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Uh you were part of the Juliet Margaret Cameron Awards in Barcelona, and I was part of a different awards theme, but the exhibition was running simultaneously. And I met you and your wonderful partner Ed. We had a wonderful time and evening in Barcelona together. And for the last two years I've been trying to get your own.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I've been avoiding it.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, that was an interesting one, wasn't it? Because Julia, you were the winner of the Julia Margaret Cameron Awards, which is, I suppose we should also say, Juliet Margaret Cameron used this wet plate technique, didn't she?

SPEAKER_00

She did, yes, famously so, and was a pioneer of this technique. So, do you consider yourself an artist? I feel like I probably should, but it feels a little bit I don't know, I'm getting used to it's like when I changed from assistant to photographer, like getting used to that change. It's like another part of me, I think, rather than a change. I'm not gonna not be a photographer, but maybe I'm an artist as well as a photographer. I had a piece in the Royal Academy. This is what I'm about to say.

SPEAKER_02

You've had multiple awards, you're part of the AOP Open, you're a finalist in that, you've had work selected for the Royal Academy show last year, 2025. Yeah. So really, on paper, you are an artist.

SPEAKER_00

I know, so when I think about it, that sounds a person who's an artist.

SPEAKER_02

But is that the universal problem? Saying you're an artist, even if you feel it and believe it, is actually quite a strange.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think it's imposter syndrome, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

It's like I don't I should really call you on this because I do it on everyone else. It's not a syndrome, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

What is it?

SPEAKER_02

It's just human. No, just being human. You haven't got a syndrome, it's not an illness, it's not a sickness, it's just something that every human goes through. And funny, yes. And we speak about it on the podcast. A lot of the time you feel imposter syndrome when you're trying something new. So sometimes you should just try and reframe it and embrace it.

SPEAKER_00

That's it. Like, just the fact that you read all of that stuff out about me, it's oh okay. Yeah, it's just is it different when someone tells it back to you? I think it makes it clearer.

SPEAKER_02

Does it make it easier to accept that you are an artist?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I think so, because it was about us.

SPEAKER_02

I why why why do we have such an issue going, yeah, I'm an artist?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Because we've discussed it, and having that portrait done was interesting because I've just done a load of self-portraits of myself to try and in some way propel my art forward. I'm like goes back to our degrees, it's a visual communication. How do I communicate this idea of what I'm doing? I can't really put it into words. Yeah. But yeah, I've still I'm facing a lot of resistance from myself about putting myself out there as an artist.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think the same. Yeah, it's putting your head above the parapet, isn't it, and saying this is what I do is it's vulnerable. Yeah, you make yourself vulnerable, exactly. That's the perfect word.

SPEAKER_02

But is that not where the best art comes from?

SPEAKER_00

Totally. And it's where you know, this work that I'm doing at the moment, you know, I'm sharing something vulnerable about myself. And I'm wary of that because it's something that you normally keep inside, and it feels like you're opening your heart and people can see it and they can damage it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, very much so. I definitely feel feel like that.

SPEAKER_00

But also most people who have been wonderful about the work, and you know, I'm it's most of the time it's our own issues about issues.

SPEAKER_02

It's not anyone else's issues. It is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We call ourselves an artist or whatever, no one else really cares.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_02

It's a strange one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

It is. Maybe I'll call can I call myself a photographic or a photographer and artist, something like that.

SPEAKER_02

I think you are all of those things, I think. So yeah. Thank you. Shall we talk about taking this process further then? Because this leads us on to yes, you've got your commercial career, which I'm sure people would be like, Why didn't you talk about that? And I'm like, well, you don't necessarily need to know about all the commercial jobs that pay the bills. It's this is the this is the drawer, Emma. The wet plate stuff is the drawer, isn't it? And you're working on a project now in the Kangorms, right?

SPEAKER_00

I am, yes. Tell us a little bit about that. Where to start?

SPEAKER_02

Well, shall we start with where the project's based and the because it's based on a book, isn't it?

The Cairngorms Project Inspired By Nan Shepherd

SPEAKER_00

It is. So it's based on a book called The Living Mountain by Nan Shepherd. And it's about her exploration of the Kangorms when she was younger. So she lived in Aberdeen her whole life and spent her whole life walking in the Cairngorms. And she was fascinated with the small details, the meditative nature of walking, being in the mountains, and following your senses. So the the sounds that you heard, maybe the trickle of a stream or a bird or something, following the scent of the pollen from the heather or something like that, rather than setting out with a conquest of a mountain in mind. So I was really that really touched something in me, like looking for those small meditative details that really that found something in me that hit you. Yes, yeah, that touched touched a nerve or touched something in my heart. Um about the meditative practice of being in the mountains and noticing the small details that lots of people don't notice, that being inspired and feeling the beauty and the gratitude of being in those places without the need to conquer the mountain or have a destination that you must reach by the end of the day. So I went to the Cain Gorms and I knew that I wanted to work from certain places that she mentions in the book. So I would go there and park up the car and walk. So I'd follow a path down by the river or through the woods or something, and while we were walking, I'd that's the play, that's what I need to photograph. Just pure intuition. Yes, yeah. So just looking and paying attention and listening and being aware of all my senses, looking at the light, and just there would be somewhere along that journey that's like that's where I need to make that is gonna that place, that's the special place, that's all that's calling me right now. That detail is just so beautiful. I'm gonna take a picture of it. I need to like try and capture the essence of the wild nature, the wild essential nature of the cairngorms through this tiny detail. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Was that tricky for you to make that transition from say going from your commercial clients where you've got a brief, this is what we need to achieve, to then go, I'm just gonna walk in the cairngorms with my camera and oh that stream's drawn me over there. It's yeah, I think it's to go back to that intuitive nature that uh it's just like no instinct meant I'm gonna take that picture.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I think it was it felt very indulgent to be making pictures for me, purely for me, with no like commercial end in mind, like just for the love to make a body of work. I just wanted to work out in nature with this process. And you said this was a meditative process.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but you say the actual process is a meditative process. So you combine the two.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Can I just ask, what does that look like? I mean, I can't imagine the Cairngorms are the most easy place to navigate with a five-hole camera and no, and I took my 10-8 camera, so yeah, it's made it even harder.

SPEAKER_00

Bigger than that. Yeah, it meant all the equipment I needed fitted on a trolley and in the backpack, and I had my partner Ed with me assisting me. So thanks, Ed. Major props for all your help. So we were able to just wheel the equipment and then carry it on my back to the location. Or I would work out the back of the car if the place that I found was within five minutes walking distance. You know, yeah, more of my time limits. Yeah, so if I can get to the destination, shoot the plate and get back in ten minutes, that's yeah, I would work out of the car.

SPEAKER_02

Did you ever find a place that you go, that is perfect? And then by the time you'd set up, all the light had changed and everything changed a little flat and horrible.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was really trying to get a picture of through the trees in one particular set of woodlands. And it's just the most beautiful light. And I had this picture in my mind, I was like, come on, Emma, come on. And it was this is when I was being fought by the process, by the light moving, and I was chasing, and I was getting really frustrated with it. I was like, had to have a word of myself, that's not the point of this project. You've got to just let go of that. If this picture's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. So just surrender to the process, take a breath, and so I'm just very calmly like, okay, I'm just gonna pour a plate, we're gonna go back to where I've left the camera, and I'm gonna make a plate. And I'm whatever will be will be. Exactly. I'm not gonna chase what I've got in my mind, I'm just gonna surrender to the light, everything that's happening. And I came back with a great plate. It was wasn't what I had in my mind, but it was a for me, it's about letting go of those preconceived ideas as well. You know, that I would come back from the Kang Rolls with a beautiful picture of the mountains.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the vista.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And is that a project that's uh that's ongoing?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I definitely feel like it's unfinished business. So I'm gonna go back this year and make some more plates.

SPEAKER_02

What do you see the end goal of this? An exhibition, a book?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I'm seeing an exhibition.

SPEAKER_02

And is this all self-funded?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's gonna be a book, maybe a handmade book. And I think if all things come together, I'm probably working with some musicians who I met a group who are also inspired by the same kind of nature writing as Nan Shepherd's. We're sort of growing this from this little seed of an idea about a performance where they're performing live improv music inspired by the same nature writing, and at the same time, there will somehow my pictures will be projected and worked into the performance. So that's right, that's in the tiny beginnings of a idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But this project has already been featured in magazines.

SPEAKER_00

It has, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because this is quite a cool one, isn't it? The magazine that you're featured in, alongside some other a few well-known photographers, yes.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm featured in Focus Quarterly, so issue number four, alongside the great Alfred Stieglitz and a feature about camera work magazine. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02

That's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_00

That is to see my work featured alongside that is just incredible. What an honour.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So did it feel like an honour? Yeah. And I was like, oh, I feel like a little bit of me's arrived somewhere.

SPEAKER_02

But again, this is down to maybe some legacy.

SPEAKER_00

It is, and this is about this is about being an artist as well. Seeing my work here, the way I'm talking about it, I feel like it's an evolution from where I was before. This is the next step. And it tells something about my soul, I think, which is really vulnerable. Okay. And which is always quite hard to be say more about that. What do you mean? I just think the way that I talk about it, the way I've we've written about it for the magazine, it really gets into the essence of what the work is about, how I feel about the work. And yeah, they asked about vulnerability as well, which is interesting. Yeah, it's just an honour to be in it, to be featured in it, to be asked to be part of it, and to be talking about my work as an artist rather than as a photographer. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Do you have a name for the Project in the Kangle?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I've called it the Umpah. So it's a little quote from the Nan Shepherd book where she talks about when she was young and she was out walking with one of her childhood friends and her friend's father, and they'd wandered off somewhere, and her friend's father called them back. Come back to the past, come back to the past. And her friend turned round to her and said, I like the umpath the best.

SPEAKER_02

I like that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, me too. I like the unpath.

SPEAKER_02

And there's something the road less traveled is something. Yes, and I think you know, which again is the photography technique less travelled.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah. I think as artists, we're often on the unpath. Yeah. I called myself an artist then. Well done, Emma. Well done.

SPEAKER_02

I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think we take unconventional routes and unconventional paths.

SPEAKER_02

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00

That is part of the fun exploring life that way. The journey's journey.

SPEAKER_02

Leading a life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I think that's why we chose this path, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

With the problems that do come alongside.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, maybe sometimes to our own detriment. But of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Financial insecurities, imposterism, all of those things they affect us. And it's something that manifests, and it's something that I hear in a lot of the podcasts that we record.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I'm glad it's not just me then.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it's definitely not, it's definitely not just you ever.

A Future Portrait Series With Sahrawi Refugees

SPEAKER_02

But moving forward, we spoke about a project that you'd like to do in the UK involving your wet plate as well, that has the crossover between the stuff that we spoke about earlier, giving back and sharing the love of photography that you have, the helping of the marginalised communities. And am I right in thinking that you'd like to do a wet plate portrait project of some of the refugees from the Western Sahara that are living in the UK?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

So combining your wet plate love and your love of giving back and this charitable work that you do, the ethical storytelling.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so my dream would be to take the wet plate process to the refugee camps in South West One. In my dreams, I'm gonna keep dreaming that dream, but I think Is that just a logistical nightmare? Logistical and technical nightmare. So maybe I could find a way to buy a refrigerated van and get it to the camps. I wouldn't be able to take it there, someone else would have to drive it there. But then managing this process in that heat and dust would be a nightmare. But also amazing artists. All of the sand on the plates. Exactly. Yeah, so that I'm gonna keep that in my mind and not completely dismiss it. But I then had to rein myself in. It's like, how can I make this work? There is a Sahrawi refugee community here in the UK, it's pretty small. I know quite a lot of them. So it would be wonderful to make a body of work with them, for them, and as a way to raise awareness about what's happening in Western Sahara by making some storytelling portraits with the people that are here now, because I can do that. They're accessible to me, I can transport my dark room to wherever they are. That's the easier thing here. Logistically, it's totally achievable. So yeah, that's been in my mind for a few years, and now I feel like I'm closer to being able to make that happen.

SPEAKER_02

But this is all part of that thing about you giving back, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

You've got this real Yes, I guess so. I mean, I've I feel that it's also very much for me, and maybe that's a bit selfish to do this, but there's no selfless act.

SPEAKER_02

We discussed this in lots of podcasts. And it's alright for you to feel good if you're doing something good, Emma. I promise you.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you. Yes. Yes, I feel that there is a really wonderful body of work to be made there in co-created with my Sahrawi friends that are in the UK and the Sahrawi friends that I'm yet to meet, where we can make a series of portraits and work with some alongside some other creatives to create a body of work and an amazing exhibition and maybe book, but it also needs to be something that where there's outreach and like an outcome outreach within the communities that we work with. Where they can see better, yeah, exactly. So how do I bring all of those things together and make that happen? That will be an arts council funded project, I would imagine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But amazing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02

And this is and and going back to that because it is a very I know we've talked a lot about the wet plate, but this is a big important part of you, isn't it? It's like you described it as you can't holiday in someone else's misery.

SPEAKER_00

They did say that, yes.

SPEAKER_02

And the whole thing about raising awareness, because the last few years, haven't Olive Branch teamed up with Amnesty?

Advocacy Beyond The Camps

SPEAKER_00

Yes, we have. So we've been really fortunate to be able to exhibit at various Amnesty International groups and events around the UK, and we've toured the exhibition of the works that the young people I've been mentoring have created in the Sahara, as well as some of my own work, and we get talks about Western Sahara, about the political situation, about what life is like on the camps for our young people, so people can understand more.

SPEAKER_02

And as part of that tour, do you had an exhibition at the House of Parliament?

SPEAKER_00

We did, yes.

SPEAKER_02

So was your work in that as well?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there are a few pieces of mine. I tried to make it mostly the work of our young people. So, yes, that was organised by another group that is a Western Sahara Solidarity Group called Western Sahara UK. And so we exhibited in Parliament for yeah, about a week or 10 days in October last year, just before I last went to the camps. So the exhibition was still up when I went to the camps last year, and we were able to arrive and say, your work is at the moment up in an exhibition in the UK Parliament. So that was amazing to be able to share that with.

SPEAKER_02

What was the response from some of the people when you told them that?

SPEAKER_00

They get really they got very excited about that because we're not just talking the talk, we're walking the walk, we're sharing their work and we're in parliament, and we're not only we exhibiting in parliament, we're working with the other solidarity groups to lobby parliament to affect change, and so we're really trying to make a difference there. And back in the council, people feel that's really worthwhile because that's how we can start to bring the awareness about Western Sahara up the political.

SPEAKER_02

And is that what you mean by you can't dine out on someone else's misery? In the sense that I can imagine that maybe some people would go there, do the photo up, and come back and never be seen again. Whereas, like you say, you have to, with everything, you have to have see the impact for the people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I think you know, I really at one point wanted to be a documentary photographer. I would have loved that because I just Love meeting people.

SPEAKER_02

And I think I'm really interested in which is a far cry from the quiet era. We're wanting to hide on a car shoe in the middle of the landscape.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. I'm really fascinated and interested in what happens afterwards. After a war, after some big like event that's been of world natural disaster. Yeah, it's been reported around the world. What happens five years later? We're not talking about that event anymore, but there's people still living with the aftermath of that. And I think there's a lot obviously on news cycles fast. It's although it's 24 hours, it's actually short. The stories reported are really quite short. So these kind of things I feel aren't always reported on afterwards because it's not like sharp end of news. But there's people living in those situations, and we need to check in on them and see how people are living now and what kind of people still need support or what kind of support they need to make sure it's not just us going in.

SPEAKER_02

Did you just feel like it's a responsibility of your going in and taking photos of the colours? Oh god, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. For me, I so although I wanted to be a documentary photographer, I knew that I wasn't cut out for it because I couldn't go in and go and visit and then never go back. Because as soon as I went to the refugee camps in Algeria, like at this one point in that trip, and I I was taking some pictures, like I'm meant to be here. This is what I'm meant to be doing. We stay with a family in the refugee camps. We don't stay outside and go in every day. They feel like family. I've got family there now. They feel like my brothers and sisters. So when you have that connection, you can't just go in and never go back. So I feel that I can create something far more worthwhile and help train these young photographers and enable them to tell the stories that they want to tell by repeatedly going back. As long as I'm useful to them, I'll keep going back. If they don't want me to go back, then if they tell me I'm I'm not helping anymore, then I won't go.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But if I've got things that that I can teach them, some techniques, some knowledge, some understanding, some self-belief, that's probably even more important than the photography, is they believe in themselves and their capabilities and God.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's important for all of us.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, yeah. And in the camps, no one's ever refused when I've asked to take their picture. But what people say is share our story back home. We've been forgotten. So that's how they feel. They are called forgotten people. So both do feel an obligation to come back and share the pictures, but it's not a burden to do that. And the story's important, it's very valuable, and to be able to be given the permission to take someone's portrait and share their story is real, it's an honour, and I don't take that lightly. So that's why I feel like I'm so dedicated to continuing to advocate here and support the surrounding community here by doing what I do back in in the UK. So it doesn't, you know, my solidarity doesn't end when I'm there. It's an ongoing thing over the years.

SPEAKER_02

And are you planning on going back anytime soon?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, we'll be going back probably in spring next year. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I think we've spoken about quite a lot of stuff there, Emma.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

People will look at your stuff, and I think most people will be interested in the wet plate stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm glad we've we've gone into that because it's so cool. It's such a lovely process. I know we keep talking about it, but it is magical. And in the world where we're consumed by so many images, slowing down that meditation, allowing yourself to just let the process happen. Yeah. It's beautiful. And as I say, I've got an amazing portrait that I'm so pleased with and got to experience the whole thing, which was just bloody wonderful. So thank you again. That's great. Thank you very much.

Guest Recommendation And Favourite Poem

SPEAKER_02

So Emma, we do have a closing tradition on the Creative Noeland Podcast where we ask uh guests to give us a quote or something along those lines that resonates with you, but also uh future guests, someone in your world, your network that you think might be an interesting guest to come on the podcast. So over to you.

SPEAKER_00

There are several people I think would be great for you to meet and who are more the merrier. Yep. So I will give you a few names. I've name checked some of the photographers earlier on that I assisted who were all amazing and I think would be great. So the person I'm gonna just tell you now is an artist called Mary Branson. So she's an installation artist and she's got the first piece of contemporary art in Parliament's permanent art collection. Wow. So she's made a light piece called New Dawn, which celebrates women's suffrage movements, which is a permanent fixture in Westminster Hall. Wow, she's very cool. She is very cool. So I think maybe you should drop her a line.

SPEAKER_02

Great. Well, if we can sort it out, that would be great.

SPEAKER_00

Lovely.

SPEAKER_02

So And what about a quote or something along those lines that resonates with you?

SPEAKER_00

So I've got a little poem that I keep stuck to the fridge.

SPEAKER_02

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00

You might know it. It's called The Laughing Heart.

SPEAKER_02

I know this is very funny. It's actually my favourite poem. So I will very much try my best not to read along with you. It's brilliant. People listen to this. It's by Charles Bukowski.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Your life is your life. Don't let it be clubbed into dank submission. Be on the watch. There are ways out. There is light somewhere. It may not be much light, but it beats the darkness. Be on the watch. The gods will offer you chances. Know them. Take them. You can't beat death, but you can beat death in life sometimes. And the more often you learn to do it, the more light there will be. Your life is your life. Know it while you have it. You are marvelous. The gods wait to the delight in you.

SPEAKER_02

It's so good. It's so good. And it's the epitome of what we stand for on Creative Neverland. You've just got to live your life. Take the risk. Take the gambles.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I keep this stuck in the fridge. So I read it every day.

SPEAKER_02

It's a beautiful poem, and as I say, it's actually my favourite poem. So the synergies to go and we've got the Minolta camera, the assisting career, and now we've got the same favourite poem. I think it's all synergy, Emma. It's all come together. Great. Anything else you think that we should have spoken about?

SPEAKER_00

Probably after you've gone, then maybe I'll just go to the show.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, in the hindsight, we shouldn't have said that, but that's absolutely fine. But for now, Emma, I just want to say again, people are bored of me saying thank you so much for taking my photograph. It's been a absolutely amazing experience. And thank you so much for being on the Creative Noble Land Podcast. I hope that people take away a lot from your story. It's brilliant, and I'm glad that I finally managed to pin you down after two years of wanting to get you on. Emma, thank you so much. Great, thank you very well.

Support The Podcast And Final Words

SPEAKER_02

Thanks for listening to the Creative Nobeland Podcast. If you found anything in this episode useful or inspiring, please consider subscribing or sharing it with a friend. You can also help the podcast by clicking the support the show link in the show notes or by grabbing yourself something from the Creative Nobelland shop. And here's the bonus. When you join the community through our website, you'll get a special discount code that gives you free shipping on all orders. So, before you buy anything, be sure to join the community. Every bit of support helps us keep sharing these inspiring stories. So, thanks again for listening, and until next time, explore, inspire, and create.

SPEAKER_03

Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way. What do I desire?