All The Angles S1 E11: Focus on Women Participation in Padel

The world of sport is increasingly waking up not only to the importance of women participants and players, but the need to meet them on their own terms.

In the rush to launch, build and roll out across the padel ecosystem, it can become easy to park, if not ignore, any such segmentation.

This week's episode doesn't look at women working in the padel business, nor does it explore the female professionals on tour. Those deserve (and will get) separate episodes.

This week, we bring some of those at the coalface of how padel attracts, retains and supports amateur women together. Pepita Stonor of Empower Padel, Nicola Beumer of Expat Padel Amsterdam and Belen Montes of Padel Nuestro join me to explore issues around:

• Womens only initiatives v mixed initiatives
• Insecurity and Confidence
• The Importance of Friendship and Community
• The Risk of Overgeneralising 'Women'
• The Need for Role Models (both professional players as well as coaches)
• Getting Padel in front of Girls Early
• Club-built communities v individual-built communities
• The Value that Giving Women a Focus Can Bring

and more.

Take a listen and let us know on Twitter or Linkedin if you agree, disagree or want to add anything to the discussion.

Transcript

Introduction

Alex 0:05

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us for another episode of All The Angles, the business of padel podcast worldwide powered by the hexagon cup. This week our focus is on women's padel. I'm joined this episode by three individuals who have a huge amount of experience in this area. We have Peter Stoner, who is currently the founder of empower padel. She led the UK arm of fem open for two years and now launched this new, project, which is about promoting equality, wellbeing, and inclusion through padel based mainly out of the UK. We've also got Nicole Bomer, who is a Dutch squash player and coach, but also a padel coach and player as well. She's the founder of Team Power and also the founder of Expat padel Club Amsterdam. And finally, we have Belen Montes Janzon, who is in charge of marketing, growth and expansion. at padel and Westrow, which is a leading sales outlet for padel apparel and equipment. So let's get started. But before we do, if you enjoy this episode or have benefited from previous ones, please like, share, subscribe, it helps. So thank you very much for joining. We're not going to focus on professional women's padel. I think that will be a different episode. I really want to focus much more on participation. So I think the two parts of the journey that I'm looking for is: how do we get women into padel, trying padel, curious about padel. That's kind of the first phase. And then afterwards we can focus a bit more about keeping women in padel once they've tried it, once they've sampled it, how do we make sure that they keep playing and keep enjoying it and perhaps even become advocates for the sport to their friends and children, um, their families. So let's begin with an assumption, and hopefully it's a safe assumption, but I would love for you to correct me if I'm wrong, is that the way we promote and position padel to women is different from the way we do it to men. Would that be a safe assumption? Nicole, do you want to start?

Nicole Beumer 2:15

that's, uh, for one, I think that Women's padel is a totally different game game. Um, So I think Um, You see in Amsterdam and in the Netherlands that the game is played, if you go into the clubs, it's mostly male players. Um, a lot of, uh, how the Um, so I mean, maybe it scares off a bit of the women. Um, I think you need a different approach to get the board. It would have, um, you know, more female coaches in the club Like I don't Netherlands how they position it. They are now busy positioning the women by organizing events, um, uh, matches. Um, But mainly popular in, uh, in the Netherlands. They starting now being really busy promoting events. Um, All sorts of different events. What I do with the expats, it's, I have actually a big of females. It's With my club, it's like 50, 50 percent men and women it's because, you like this community, uh, because there are experts international. community of experts international? That's what's bringing them together. And this brings in the women not like, uh, uh. how you would see it in all the other clubs. There it's still mostly, I would say 80 playing. Um, So I don't think yet they like a real, uh, straight line on how they promote the women's game. They are trying all kinds of different of different, uh, uh, identity entities that are organizing women's but in all different, uh, events. So it's still in the, how

Alex 4:03

and pep from your experience, primarily in the UK sector, do you find, with your Project you're trying to identify, I guess, exactly the nuances and the packaging in which you provide or position padel, what's your experience with how padel is promoted generally and whether enough attention is paid to how The women's audience is segmented and identified and marketed to?

The Power of Friendship & Community

Pep Stonor 4:32

Look, I think in the UK, we are tiny, It's nascent. we're really at the very beginning of the journey. And when I first started in padel, there were no women at all. You know, I had to partner men for competitions. I couldn't find women to partner with. Things would get cancelled. So I think we have to appreciate that the UK has actually come quite a long way since 2020, 2021. Uh, and there's a lot more focus now, but I would say there's a lot more work to be done so that everybody working at the sport looks at everything. Everything may do with a with a gender focused lens. Not just participation, but leadership and performance areas. There's a lot of work to be done. But I think when you ask the question, uh, what do we do? Actually, I think a lot comes way before people have even entered the padel arena. You know, the sort of gender bias and unconscious bias starts at a very young age. So I think we can't change the world. And, what we tend to say with our women coming to us is that there are sort of six stages of behavior change. And the very first stage is just realizing the possibilities of being able to either go back to sport or start sport for the first time. And I think for clubs listening to this, really trying to take on board that every single woman will be in a different stage of their life journey, and you have to understand their motivations before you can put things in place. So you will have women that are already playing a lot of tennis or squash. They're early adopters. They will be easy to get, you know, involved. on board padel. But when you look at the women that have disengaged from sport at high school, we know the stats are huge. And then you look at women that have never played sport. And we have those. And for me, being Australian, I always find that quite, you know, eye opening that somebody has never played sport before. But this is where padel is so amazing at getting women, active and healthy and engaged with friends. It's such a fun, social sports. So I think once we understand that whole package: it's not just as easy as putting a woman's program on, because you have to take a step back and think, where is this woman in their journey? And then there are other stages of behavior change to actually, and I think you're going to come on to that in the second part of the podcast. So, just getting them to realize there are possibilities, there are some basic things you need like courts near them for a start. So the UK to date, there are still counties that don't have a padel court. So you've got to have that basic infrastructure in place. But then there is the second stage, which is more about togetherness. And that is something that people need to understand: that sense of belonging. And there will usually be a trigger that gets a woman onto court. And it's a bit like you know, you're much more likely to go to the gym if you commit the night before to a friend. It's very like that in padel, And we've just done a survey, and 47 percent of our community said they were introduced to padel by a friend, a female friend, and 58 percent said they play with a female friend. So, You can see that the friendship piece is super important to women to just getting them in. Um, And then there are other stages to the behavior change to make sure that they stay in the sport. But I think just getting them into the sport, it's quite simple, really. it's about a friendship thing and it's about having friends to play with. It's fun. It's social. We all know that. We all love padel. So it's not really too difficult. If we can get the friends on board.

Alex 8:06

I guess there's also the stereotype that men are drawn to the concept of competition and betterment and, sweat and power, as Nicole mentioned, there's slightly more macho esque kind of drivers. Um, With women, you mentioned obviously kept the, social piece and the community piece. I think Nicole, you obviously talking about the community piece as well as you talk about your expat community. What other kind of leavers are in play and to what extent do they play? For example, you have health and fitness is an important driver, also some women are very competitive and want to improve, some are much more focused about lifestyle, especially in different communities in a different market. Maybe Belen, as someone who's in the more commercial sphere, you've got a lot of background over a decade in the commercial sphere.

Belen Montes 8:56

I was listening to them and my photos much different because you know, in Spain, the puddle, is bigger, But in Spain women's puddle has become a huge success and we promote it through various strategic. We have a hundred of teams And competition, that encode participation, yeah. So additionally, we create a fun atmosphere with social events, only for women's, all for women's, where people can enjoy a drink, of course, little beers and socialize after match. This not only fosters a community, but also attract more women to the sport. Uh, we focus on the And, to make some friends and, uh, brings, making it an appealing option for new player. And it can help you as an strategic. Most of the team that are women's teams are women's after 50 or 60 years, which are retired. And that for a class, it's a very good strategy because they played during the morning and during the time that the course no, are no BC, you know? So I think this gonna be in your countries in the next couple of years, but, in Spain, really women's padel has become huge success.

Alex 10:14

And you touched upon this idea of women's only, platforms, whether it's competitions, whether it's courts, whether it's social events. How prevalent is the need for these kind of safe or single sex environments? Is it really crucial or is it only as a feeder piece? Because when I had the conversation in the Middle East episode, the Saudi Arabian speaker Najwa talked about how it was critical to have these private courts for women to enjoy privacy and they would feel more comfortable with that opportunity. Whereas Anwar from Dubai said that they started with that, but they actually found that that worked for coaching, but it actually didn't work so well for for participation and play. And they actually found that even when they set aside those courts, women prefer to play in mixed environments. So is there a danger of overstating the need for safe, single sex platforms? Or do you think that that is critical or critical at a certain point in the journey? maybe you want to jump in on your thoughts on that.

Pep Stonor 11:20

We're obviously at a, you know, very early stage. We've got women that are learning the sport. And I think at that stage, a female friend bringing them in is great. But regardless, in any situation, it's the same as a workplace, you know, they need to feel included, valued, respected. There needs to be some amount of sort of psychological well being in a club. And the men are just as important in that, obviously. So if women then feel comfortable playing mixed, then that's no problem. But I think there's a gap in skill progression. So interestingly, again, in our survey, even though women said they wanted to come on boards with their female friends; All of them, pretty much all of them, their goal was to get better, to compete, to learn. So we shouldn't dumb that down at all because women should be fearless and women should be able to compete. But that's why at the beginning of this, I said we're fighting against gender inequity that starts from age five. But women they can compete and they do want to, but they need the skill progression and they need the help to learn padel properly, which comes on to the lack of coaches. And I think if you put women straight into a mixed environment without the skills, they may well feel like a rabbit in headlights as the ball has been thrashed around them. But then if they've got the skills and they feel calm, I love it. And I've got lots of mixed setups that, that we play. So to bring sustained change and to get women into the game properly, you definitely need to focus on that. Some sort of coaching program, skill improvement, I think is important. Which probably in the UK, we need more coaches.

Alex 12:55

Nicole, in your community where the primary objective is about bedding in X pass, right? So that's the thing that brings everyone together. There's just having that kind of umbrella focus or umbrella objective mean that in your community, that there is much more willingness to engage in mixed sport from the beginning, or do you find actually even within your expat community, there is still an appetite for the women to play in their own kind of courts or their own matches initially, or does it make a change or It's still mixed?

Young Women & Girls; and the Drop Off

Nicole Beumer 13:31

an interesting question, but for now it's just mixed. They are all beginners, intermediate, low intermediate levels. And, they like to mingle female, men. So it works really well. But I can see that now that we are improving a little bit, our levels. They are now also putting up only girls matches. So this is the first time I've actually came across that last week that they're actually posting some girls matches as well, which I think is great because the girls, they just have a different game, less powerful. They feel maybe when they are really beginners more fun that they feel free and that they're not being hammered by the boys. And I think another thing what helps very much is for the women to have also female coaches at the club. So that when they take a lesson that they're actually feel that they are, being coached by a woman and it could be like a role model for them. And I think in the end, everything comes down also like the women, it's like we are the heartbeat of the community, keeping the people together and encouraging them. And, it's interesting because I did ask the Dutch Federation because Amsterdam is different than throughout the Netherlands with Padel. And I wanted to see what the women's stats are in the Netherlands. And, my percentage of women is way higher because in my club it's 50 50, and throughout the Netherlands it would be like maybe 40 60, or in Amsterdam even 20 80 percent. But yeah, I saw that they were planning actually games within the group, within the expert group, that they were actually asking for only a women game. So that was the first time. So I thought, Oh, that's really interesting. And even myself that I'm playing at a higher level, I only play with the guys, but when we get a game and a good game, let's say, then it is actually for me also very nice to be challenged and to play with only women because the game is different.

Alex 15:33

And what about kind of getting school girls or young women involved in padel? Is there a magic formula, a magic message that makes it enticing to them? I know there's no silver bullet. None of us are a monolith. But is there any experiences? Maybe Belen, but you've come across where an initiative or a marketing message or a tactic has really helped with regards to getting school girls into the sport or teenage girls into the sport?

Belen Montes 16:07

Yeah. I really think you should involve the government in promoting women's padel As an example, my little year, she has a year and a half and now she's in the kindergarten and next year she have in the kindergarten padel. You know, we have the option. Yeah, it's funny. She can hold the racket. She's gonna be a player. So for us, government is really involved in the sport. And also, for example, in my neighbor, I have a court. So I am a teacher and what Nicole say, I am a coach, and I focus on especially in kids and women's. And I think it's really important to different how you teach to a woman and how you teach to a man. A man smash, no, it's not the same as a woman. So I'm not teaching a woman to be strong and come back to your court, you know? We teach them a little bandit has low to defense. You know, there are a lot of different strategic to teach to a woman, to a man. So, I really enjoy teaching padel to women because I think we are smarter, but not stronger, but we are smarter. So going back to your question, I think it's very important that the government start to be involved in our sport and build a lot of course. We have a lot of course in Spain and also in Argentina, from the government, which are cheaper and there are a lot. Public places. So I think this is really, really important. And the public school. is very easy sport, for everyone. So all the kids can start to play padel in the school.

Alex 17:41

My daughter is five years old and she initially got interested in padel. because the coach is a good looking young Spanish man, and she quite deliberately told me that that's why she wanted to have lessons. She wanted to spend time with him. But now we're about

Pep Stonor 17:55

What did you say back, Alex? We'll have an off camera conversation what you said back.

Alex 18:01

I just wanted to get her on court. But now that she's had four or five lessons, she's watched Amy Gibson who's the number one British player who trains at our club. She's been watching her play and Amy's been practicing a lot in mixed matches. And it gives my daughter a lot of satisfaction to see Amy compete and win points against the men. So that now seems to be the driver. And I actually said to her, because she's got her lesson today, whether she would prefer to have Amy coach her. Or power coach, the young Spanish guy. And she was Amy. So it's interesting that even within a short space of time, the motivation is different and now the competitive, successful, victorious female is becoming almost a role model to her, much more than the good looking young male. So, I, I'm trying to understand because he also mentioned the drop off that also comes. I mean, it happens with men as well, at an age where hormones kick in and priorities change and suddenly you get a massive drop off of participation, let alone competition in sports. is Again, is there a way of maximizing or maintaining those numbers to stay in those sports rather than letting them disappear and hoping they come back somewhere in their late twenties, thirties, forties, whoever it may be.

The Power of Role Models

Pep Stonor 19:21

Look, again, there's a massive piece here about girls dropping out. And my daughter's 14, so I'm living it. 49 percent of girls play team sports in the UK versus 70 percent of boys. So, in sport in general, you've got an issue. Which padel can't address everything, but padel has such an amazing ability to keep girls included or children included because you don't have to have as many technical aspects as you need for perhaps tennis or golf. And if you haven't had coaching of tennis or golf, you can get into padel quite quickly, which is the beauty of the sport for adults as well. But for girls it's tricky, right? There's a lot of problems. We've actually just started a program for girls. We had 72 girls on court yesterday from the local state school, from a fundraising program. Just we did. And I think sometimes it's just making people a little bit aware that perhaps, and this comes back to the equity piece that perhaps, as an industry, we need to look at our budgets, you know, what percentage of budgets are devoted to these things for girls and women's participation, leadership and performance. I know we're not going to do that today, but you have to have those active role models at the other end too. So for your daughter to see Amy Gibson, it's super important. I think the Aussies have done a lot of research on this."If you see it, you can believe it", and you can look at other sports and see you've got the women's football team, uh, how many little girls dreams, they think I can do that. I can see that. And that's important, which is why you do need a lot of money invested at the other end, the top, elite end, because you've got to have our daughters aspiring to be able to do that. So those players are pretty important, but they're pretty few and far between. Female coaches a few and far between. And I think that having a gender lens at a club level, I'm like Nicole, my club is 60 percent women, but that's because. you know, I'm there, generating a lot of pro sort of women belonging, sense of feeling valued, respected. And I'm not saying all clubs don't have that. I just think that perhaps sometimes clubs are so busy in their let's get set up, all the sort of infrastructure issues that that come about setting up a club, they may not think actively, how do we really get women to be part of this community? Because again in our survey, if you look, 47 percent of women were introduced to padel by a Friend, 58 percent play with a female friend. But when they're asked if their club has female focused activities, 41 percent said know or they don't know. So there's definitely a disconnect there in terms of just focusing on the women and girls, because that's non existent in the UK.

Alex 21:54

So is the answer really about, cause we're obviously now starting to talk about continued engagement in the sport after that curiosity, after that first sampling of the sport, because it sounds to me actually, like we need to go one step beyond, Oh, women prefer this, men prefer that. Because as you mentioned quite at the beginning, the segmentation of women, whether it's based on personalities, whether it's based on where they are in their life journey, that changes. And some are competitive and ferocious competitors and want to win. And some are interested in the lifestyle. Does the requirement for segmentation Only start as women get more engaged in the sport, or actually it starts from the very beginning? That understanding that it's not just about offering a female solution, it's about offering multiple types of female solutions to get different types of females in through the door and staying through the door.

Pep Stonor 22:51

Yeah, it depends what their motivation is for taking up the sport, and I think every woman will be different. So it might be fitness, it might be to meet friends, it might be to compete. There's just so many different motivations, and, different trigger points and different support networks that will be needed before that woman even walks through a padel club's door. And maybe she comes for the first time, but it's how you get them back that is really key for the future of the game in the UK. And, it's wonderful to hear that Spain has such a fantastic social element, and I suppose I'd just maybe like to ask Belen if it was always like that, because that's, That's quite

Belen Montes 23:30

not. Of course not. Parel has been in Spain for many, many years. I'm from Argentina, same as Argentina. But we all have a beginning like you. So just to be patient And just little by little, step by step and you will make it for sure. The growing, especially in UK, we have a lot of investment there. We're going make a shop there now. My work company is really looking in the UK because the padel grows there a lot. We talk a lot with a lot of padel, court construction and UK and US are the really focused.

Alex 24:07

And so I think it's a good time to talk about coaches and all of you have mentioned coaches at some point in this conversation already. I guess I'm trying to distinguish between whether it's important to have female coaches or whether it's important to have all coaches have modules or aspects in their qualification syllabus that talks about understanding how coaching women is different from coaching men, because I think they're not mutually exclusive, but they may solve different problems. but then you mentioned that when you coach women, you're playing a different sport in many ways. So what do you think is the priority: having women coaches or having coaches that understand

Belen Montes 24:48

No, no. I mean, In this point, my coach is a man, you know, so I think there are a lot of good coaches, men's for women. I think woman could be nice, but it is not necessary to focus on in women's culture. But it is important to have empathy for woman play. So we should understand their need and support them. And, we are no stronger and we don't learn as quick at them normally. So I think, the point here should be a highlight to say that could be a man could be a woman, but empathy for how woman play.

Alex 25:25

So it's not just about technique. It's also about mental and psychology And things like that. Is that your experience as well,

Pep Stonor 25:33

Yes, I, I, I agree with Belen. It's like getting any good coach in life. It comes down to the individual who they feel is going to get the most out of their playing ability. So you're talking about trying to get that player to the best of their ability. But I think empathy is the absolutely key point. So understanding that it might be a big deal to come back to. Or age 50 or try sport for the first time. So she may need a little bit more nurture and a little bit longer to feel confident because I think confidence is a huge issue with the women I see. And, you know, all of them that enter our tournaments, I can't tell you the number of times they tell me they're not good enough or will I be able to compete. or The insecurities are just ridiculous. You only have to see that with levelings as well. Men all, sorry, Alex, tend to overestimate their padel abilities. Whereas women always underestimate, you know, they'll tell you they're a beginner when they're not. Whereas men will tell you they're playing for their country. Sorry, Alex, not all, not all men.

Alex 26:35

A hundred percent. I, I put myself forward for a FIPRIZE qualifier last year. I'm an idiot. So,

Pep Stonor 26:41

Yeah, You'll just move on. A woman would never do that. In the workplace to, There's lots of research all around this. Women always undersell what they're inherently capable of. Which is why it's so reassuring to see so many women fill out our survey to say that their goals in padel were to compete. So it's there. it's there. It's just the job of the coach to bring it out to say you are completely capable, Be fearless. and go for it. Maybe they feel more comfortable in a female environment to start, but it doesn't take them long to then move on to mixed or LTA competitions. It really doesn't. We've probably, done that before. sent hundreds of women, to those competitions once they've done one or two of ours and they feel comfortable. but it's really about empathy. I agree with Belen.

Female role models working in padel

Alex 27:26

and Nicole, what's your experience? You've been a squash coach for a long time, a padel coach more recently, in the trenches, so to speak. How have you found being a female coach with women, being a female coach with men? How have you approached it differently? What are the success skills and the tactics that you employ to really get women onto the court and stay on the court? Belen, you mentioned the, role models as well, I think is an important piece and we're not going to go into the professional women's circuit in too much detail, but how important is it in terms of growing interest in women and maintaining interest in women to see role models? And role models can be coaches. Role models can be top players in the club. Role models can be professionals. How, important has it been in Spain to see the top Spanish women ascending to the top? How important is it, from a corporate point of view, when you look at the companies that are, the equipment companies, you worked at Vibora for a while. And now at Padel Nuestro. How important is it for the commercial side of the business in terms of selling equipment and apparel to have these female heroes and advocates for the sport? The likes of Bea or Delfi or Ari or whoever it may be, those are the top heroes, right? But then you've also got the coaches are heroes. Definitely it is for my daughter at the moment. I'm sure it's the same in every country. If you see a woman playing tremendously well on court, holding her own, giving the boys trouble or just playing a fantastic women's match, but where the level is incredibly high and fast and furious and tactical. Do you feel like that that is something that's neglected by clubs and courts in Spain or in other countries, or it's something that they should invest a little bit more time and energy and thought into having those people visible?

Belen Montes 31:09

Yeah, I really think my photo is very different, like Holland, UK and different countries. But here, I mean, I play with men's without problem. We play mix and here is very, very diverse city. I mean, doesn't matter if you're a woman and men, the important things, your level and that's it. So here we have a lot of tournaments for woman, for men. And, we are no separate women's or men now. I mean, I don't know exactly the data, the numbers, but we are almost half and a half for us. We know the sales and we sell much more for women's than for men's, you know? So. In other countries, we sell just for men's like I managed Italy and I have the key account in Italy and we sell most for men. But, in Spain, women's plays a lot and plays good. And all of them love to play and the men's like to play with woman here. There's no different.

Alex 32:01

So I want to take a step back. To say maybe a bit of an incendiary question, but I want to make it very clear to the audience, what's the benefit of courting women players for clubs I think there is a feeling at some places that it's just a headache. It's an over segmentation. It's, do we really need to spend this much time on thinking about bespoke solutions? I think we've talked about what can be done, but I want to just spend a minute on what are the benefits for a club, what are the benefits for the sport generally to really invest that extra time, creativity, energy, solutions into trying to court the women's players. Pep, Maybe you want to touch on that.

Pep Stonor 32:46

well, I think in any situation, diversity is good, right? You should have lots of diversity in, business. And there's not just women, right? We've got all sorts of other diverse areas that we don't even touch on in the UK. But with women my gut feeling is that I think we said it a little bit before, but women will bring their friends to a club. So that's great for a start. They'll probably be more likely to bring the children and the family. They're likely to stay in the club for a long time and have a coffee. I mean, I'm not saying men don't do that, but in general women they buy right. Every time I turn up to a tournament in an outfit, five women ask me where it's from. And there's nothing in the UK about padel. I've got two brands that are tennis brands that have completely come across to support our tournaments. Because it's a whole new market segment for them, right? Tennis is saturated in the UK. No one knows. It's so new. It's such a ripe market for business. I don't know why more people don't target women for the whole clothing, merch, everything. It's still pretty male dominant, I would say in the UK. Even basics like racket fittings, I don't know why more people don't do that. In fact, we have actually got one provider that is going to do one for us, but where you come and you explain, if you're coming into the sport, what do all these racket shapes mean? What do you need if you're a beginner and you're new into it? What do you need to then aim for as your skills progress? Because I can tell you, nobody really does that very well. You know, I've heard all sorts of explanations between the difference of all the racket shapes. But you know, somebody really sort of, um, you know, explaining it to women, great, they buy, they love it.

Alex 34:21

And Belen, from your point of view, from a commercial side, like I'm assuming again, that you touched on it already, that the women's spend is a significant part of any padel business. And it shouldn't be neglected and it's definitely worth focusing on

Belen Montes 34:37

Yes. I mean, well, I used to work for a brand and, we work next to the the Siux brand, and they, in, like in all their business plan, marketing plan and stuff, they really focus in the woman, like a woman collection with women racket, women t-shirt, marketing campaign for women and stuff. So women, is very important for the business.

Outro

Alex 35:00

and I wanted to touch upon the attitude of clubs, right? So we talked a lot about the requirement to build these platforms, initiatives, spaces, activities that can really address the appetite, the interest, the curiosity of women, for clubs that requires a bit of thinking, a bit of planning, a bit of rejigging. So maybe Nicole, we can start with you. Like what have you found the attitude of clubs to be? Are they resistant? Are they initially interested? Are they continuously interested? I guess my theory is that they don't like it. Then they like it because they think it might address an occupancy issue. And then they think maybe we should own this ourselves rather than let some outsider kind of run this piece of our puzzle and have this visibility and data and connection. But I'm speculating. How do you find the courts and the clubs respond to these female first or female focused initiatives and spaces? So that about wraps up our episodes. Again, please like, share and subscribe if the content was thought provoking. Please comment on LinkedIn or Twitter if you have any recommendations around formats, topics, questions, speakers we need to bring on. We want you all, those driving the next phase of this industry's future, to tell us what you want to hear about and who from. Thank you Pep, Belen and Nicole for joining us today. We will keep doing our best to cover all the angles of the business around padel, episode after episode. Till the next one. Thank you.