All The Angles Padel Business Podcast S2 E6: Focus on Court Building

This episode, we get back to fundamentals: the 20 x 10.

Courts have come a long way since the concrete walls that still exist in legacy padel markets. As the world opens up to, and embraces, the sport, the race to deliver courts is fierce, with heavy competition around cost, features, resilience, quality and ancillary services.

We try to take a slice across the value chain as we talk to a leading manufacturer in MejorSet, a pedigreed advisor leading WSB Sport, and an innovative deliverer in the shape of Padel Ventures. 

We take a global overview of the market as we talk about what is coming from different parts of the world, and is what is being stood up across the world.

If you are looking to build a stand alone court, a multi-court club or a branded chain of venues, this is the episode for you.

Transcript

Introduction

Alex 0:05

Ladies and gentlemen, damas y caballeros. Thank you for joining us for another episode of All The Angles, the business of padel podcast worldwide, powered by the Hexagon Cup. This week, our objective is to give you, our audience, a unique insight into the history of padel courts, the current propositions on the market, and the future of courts and court building. I'm fortunate enough to be exploring this area with three experts in the field. First up we've got Paul McCormick who has spent since 2006 in sports sales in and around Alicante, around golf, gym equipment and the like, and has spent the last few years as Chief Commercial Officer of MejorSet padel Courts, who are the official court partner of FIP and Premier Padel.. Joining him we have Gareth Evans, an ex rugby player, but someone who's been heavily involved in the sports, leisure and fitness industry since 2011. Recently he was the Managing Director of UK padel Courts and is now the founder of padel Ventures out of the UK. And finally, I have Pierre Francesco Iazzeola, has spent the last 35 years leading new sports, exhibitions, Fiverside football, esports, and other facility related projects. And in the last eight or so years, he's headed up WSB Sport, helping about 200 facility creators realize their vision. Thank you all for joining us. Before we get started, if you enjoy this episode or have benefited from previous ones, please like, share, subscribe. It really does help. So, without further ado, gentlemen, let's go right back to the very beginning. Let's talk about concrete courts. When I think about where courts started, how they look, I think of the Classic courts that, Tapia used to play at in Catamarca with these concrete walls where no one could see in, no one could see out. And these were kind of the original padel grounds. I guess my question with the concrete courts is, Where are those courts still prevalent and what purpose do they currently hold in padel's story? Are they still being built? Do they still have a role to play? What are your thoughts on that before we get into the more contemporary models? Paul, do you want to start?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 2:13

Sure, I'll go ahead. Well, I would say, it's an interesting question, Alex, and certainly I'm based over in Spain, so I guess, where we have more padel courts than anywhere I would suggest. So there certainly are still some of those. original courts about. I very much doubt there are any new ones being built. They're very, very few. It's a bit of a, you know, a throwback to the old days. That's for sure. So, aesthetically, of courts, people look back at them now and sort of a wonder high on earth. we all played on them back in the early days, but those of us who have done, it's exactly how it all started. There are still some sentimentalists out there who, you know, will talk about the old days of padel and the origins of it. So there's certainly a emotional connection to them. But realistically speaking, you know, we've moved, come a long way from, from what you've alluded to there and the concrete walls and even the next stage of development into where we're at now. So I think, Yeah, we won't be going back in that direction. Mainly aesthetics, but also, of courts, the playing aspect of those courts, too, has been massively enhanced. So, for both those reasons, I think they're a thing of the past.

Glass and Steel Courts

Alex 3:18

I think many knees and ankles are thankful that we have moved on from those concrete floors. I know for sure when I used to play volleyball when we graduated to wooden bounce floors from concrete old leisure centers It definitely made a big difference. So where we are now We've got as you mentioned paul We're now in the glass and steel courts that most of us know and love; most of us are familiar with, And play with. Do you have a sense of when those kind of first started appearing? And because they're the prevalent model now, how do they differentiate? What is the spectrum of offering in that glass and steel court product?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 3:58

Yeah, just to continue that, I guess there has been an evolution there, so to speak. So there are still even within our own, at Mejor Set, within our own portfolio, we have different models. Some with more steel than others, of courts. So, there's still an element of that, in terms of the different court models available. But to answer your question, yeah, absolutely. We've come away from concrete walls into glass all around the court as everybody has. The difference, from an aesthetic point of view is the visibility of courts. It's, um, uncomparable, so to speak from both inside and outside the court. So, aesthetically, it looks better, but of courts, it also plays a lot better in terms of the bounce of the ball and the consistency and all the rest. Concrete walls are concrete walls. But again, in Spain, we still have residential, because it's so established over here in terms of player participation. Apart from commercial clubs, residential is a huge segment of the industry here in terms of most apartment blocks will have padel courts. So again, those that were built 15 years, 20 years ago. were built with the concrete courts that you're talking about, and some of them still exist. And when the budget isn't there to refurb into a more modern court, they just, paint over it and go again. So, but anything that's new, modern, uh, or simply has evolved over that time is definitely of the glass element. And again, that's an improvement in all aspects. The playing side of the sport, the aesthetical side and of it and the visibility.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 5:20

Yeah. Maybe we might see in the future. Uh, who knows? I always have the tendency to see things from the players perspective, you know? And now, some might look for a different experience playing padel. So I wouldn't be surprised if some club would decide to build a proper concrete court, you know in the club, just to keep this vintage experience. I mean, at the end of the day, squash courts are still built in concrete. There are a few uh,glass courts with squash, but concrete is always the standard. Of courts, the ball is much smaller, so you would not see the ball. If you play only with glass under certain conditions, and also glass costs less than building a court in concrete nowadays. But I wouldn't be surprised if this concrete courts would maybe pop up in the future for some club just to give that vintage experience to their players.

Alex 6:16

And it's not that long ago that you know There's that famous clip of I think it was paquito who was running for a ball and smashed through the glass. So obviously things are still evolving and we can obviously get a little bit technical here. Is there a range of quality in terms of the steel used and the glass used to create that premium model and to a more accessible model? It may not be visible to the naked eye, but Is there that range that exists within the market for clubs that are looking for slightly different price points? Gareth, maybe you can jump in with your experience in the uk on that?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 6:53

Maybe Paul's better place to answer this, but certainly in glass terms, there's different thicknesses of glasses. So there's 10 mil and there's 12 mil in the UK. I just see a lot of people going for 12 mil. We've certainly not sold a lot of 10. And Paul might be better placed just to answer the question on the steel. I'm sure we'll come on to later on the thickness and the more robustness of the courts and the hurricane courts and things like that.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 7:19

Yeah, absolutely. Maybe just add to that that like any product guys. Absolutely. There are different elements in the quality for sure. Again, we might touch later on manufacturing. Spain has traditionally been the hub of padel court manufacturing, but as the sport goes more global, there's now a manufacturer popping up all over the world. So the question will revolve around, uh, is the quality the same? But even within the traditional manufacturer, the older manufacturers, Depending on what products they're using, whether it be as Gareth alludes to there, the steel, the thickness, the paint on it, the galvanization, different elements, the glass, of courts, so, from our side, as we are positioned very much at the premium end of the market. I would most certainly say there are differences in quality out there. And, unfortunately, that generally is found out through trial and error and through time, but, um, you definitely need to be very careful with the different elements of the court you use to make sure that the quality is top and avoid things like the example you just alluded to Alex. If that happens, that's bad for all of us.

Alex 8:20

And just to drill down a little bit deeper. So obviously you can bring a premium court into your facility if you're a club builder or a club brand. Or you can decide that you want to cut costs a little bit and Try and see if you can get slightly cheaper propositions or types of product. What are the downsides of doing that? Where do you end up seeing that come back on you? Is it a case of maintenance: you need to maintain more? Is it that they need to be replaced more readily? What's the downside of going for the cheaper option?

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 8:52

Well, I mean, First of all, is the durability of the product during the years. Because I mean, all courts seem the same when you install them. Then problem starts to rise after a couple of years. For example, the courts that are engineered properly, when you install them, all the screws fall into the holes naturally. You know exactly when you have to put it down like a mechanic, you know? The cheaper courts you have to drill your own hole, on the site. When you install the courts, that means that after one year, all that drilling creates rust. Because of courts you can use galvanized iron, you can galvanize or put the primer on your steel structures. But if you drill the structure on site, that drilling Takes away any kind of protection. And I mean, nobody understand that because when you install the court, the court seems perfect. Then after a couple of years, you have problems. So this is something that naked eye cannot see, but I mean, the guarantee that comes along with an established company or fabricator should justify the price increase that the client pays.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 10:08

Yeah. And I think that, if people are worried on pricing, it's much better to go with, Someone like MejorSet, a premium brand because, there's options on courts. You don't have to buy a super panoramic court, an ultra panoramic court with the glass all the way around. You know, start at the classic frame court and talk about that starting point, that price point.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 10:31

Yeah, that's a very good point. I appreciate it Garth. There's definitely within the portfolio, there's different models. So if you shoot for the top and we have models one specific example for the premier padel, professional tour, we designed a model for them. But that's at the very higher end of our, Price spectrum. So, of courts, people look at it, love it and want it. But absolutely, as Gareth says too, it's not a necessity if you're a commercial club and you want to start out and there are budget restraints. There are other options and certainly much more competitive. But again, I would pick up definitely that there's a lot of shitty quality out there, quite frankly. And, that's ultimately people are going to find that out very quickly, as Piero says, within a year or two, and that can be on the steel, it can be on the turf, it can be on the lights, all the different elements. So we take pride in being at that premium end of the market. So, I suggest a lifespan of the product is probably indicative of, what you install in the first place.

New Factories in New Countries

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 11:22

Yeah. But the problem here is that people buy the court at the end of their construction, club constructions. And I haven't seen in my thirty years of experience, nobody that didn't make mistake on their budget: construction budget. So when it comes to buying the courts, actually, they're out of the budget. So they want to save money. So this is the reason why people at the end, they need to buy cheaper courts. So this is why, this is all part of our sales strategy of courts, and we need to make understand for the good of the clients that planning is very important. And also budgeting wise, it's really very important because otherwise you will end up with the necessity of buying cheap courts, which at the end of the day means poor quality for the clubs and for the players. And also for us, it's a disgrace.

Alex 12:15

And we've alluded to it now, but I think Even in the last couple of years i've seen conversations about new factories opening up in mexico usa china from your guys point of view, is this good news or bad news for the sport worldwide that there is this diversification of source for the raw materials and for the construction elements?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 12:38

I think yes and no, Alex. When I say yes, let me clarify. I think anything that is internationalizing the sport and the industry is good, you know, so It's not completely dominated by one market or one country or one one region, even. So, I think, moving forward, you know, if we want to take this sport really, truly global and all the aspirations of a becoming an Olympic sport and everything, then this is necessary. I would temper that, however, by saying the ideal scenario there would be that the premium and the, let's say, the quality manufacturers are those who actually expand into those markets and those countries and maybe do some of the manufacturing themselves there. Because right now, I can't speak for them all, but some of the manufacturers, let's take China as an example. Nobody really knows who's making them. So, there's certainly been and will continue to be issues around quality over there. But if, the established manufacturers and other players in the industry end up internationalising and expanding bigger and bigger all the time into those markets and then can potentially take some of their manufacturing to other regions, then that's, that's good because it'll increase speed the market. And again, just in terms of the awareness of the sport, I think it will be beneficial for all of us,

Court Certification and Regulation

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 13:49

I would add something. We know that padel is a worldwide success. And there's been in the last couple of years a lot of pressure On the offer side. I mean, a shortage of products, demand increased for the courts. Uh, so, this is why a lot of new manufacturer popped up. And also padel is perceived by most client as a commodity product. So they don't see the difference between one product and another product. So as a commodity, I mean, it's perfectly natural, like in any product that you see, manufacturer and new fabricators everywhere. The problem is that what the fabricator has to do to step out of this competition is to build a strong identity for their brand, of courts, and also try to give to their courts different, quality features that can increase the value of the product. For example, technology, for example, design, and they should think of something else. Maybe, like the client can feel part of a community. I mean, the buyer of the court: some perks for the buyers. For example, Not because Paul is here, but I mean, MejorSet, for example, as supplier to the premier padel, the official supplier, they can give to their buyers access to this very important tournaments. There are some tournaments are among the most and the best organized tournaments in any sport. I live in Rome and I must say that I've seen the padel, the premier padel tournaments all over the world. And I must say that the tournament in Rome is something incredible: for the location, for the level, the top level of the organizations. Being invited to the final, for someone who owns Premier padel Court, might be a perk, that could convince him to spend that three or four thousand pounds more for that kind of court. Don't forget that the cost of the padel Court itself is 25 percent of the total cost, because if you have to build a slab and you have to build a canopy, I mean, have a proper court, indoor court, I would say, the cost of the padel is 25%, but we're not talking about very big investment. And also, built exclusive partnership, or strategic partnership with other brands like for example, Padel Gallis did with Wilson, for example, that's not a bad idea at the end of the day. Or Adidas, also with another fabricator. Sometimes clients think that having this discounts Adidas gives to buy their material, when you buy their courts might be a perk, that make them decide to buy those courts. So also something that is very important compared to previous question is the maintenance. For example, who does the maintenance of the padel courts? The fabricators s sometimes they have their own installators, so maybe they should think about offering maintenance program included in the price. Now everybody knows because most of the padel, operators. Are also themselves padel players. So they play padel. They see the condition in which some of the courts are after a couple of years. So when they built their own, they opened their own facility. They should be interested in a maintenance program, for example. These are all, in my opinion, ideas that could help some of the fabricators to step out of the competition. So, Chinese, I mean, I've worked in Shanghai, I did a club for a very important football club in Shanghai, and we built the courts there using Chinese fabricator. And they're very good. They're not bad. I mean, some of them are good, but their prices are not cheaper than ours. you know? You can find very good fabricator in China, but they're expensive.

Alex 17:37

And, just in terms of the quality, is there any kind of independent third party, regulator that looks at the tier or the quality of these courts and objectively tiers them and says, right, this is a grade A court. This is a grade B court. This is a grade C court based on the quality of the metal, the quality of the glass, the whatever it may be, or is it still currently, There isn't that level off regulation in place for the customer, in this case, the clubs to really hang their hat on and rely on

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 18:13

I suppose there's a code of practice. There's the, in the UK, SAPCA have gotten involved, the Sports and Play Association, so, from the building side of things. Um, but it's a recommendation, not a sort of regulation. Some companies

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 18:30

have ISO certifications, for example. So they have to respect some criteria. Otherwise, they lose their certification.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 18:39

but it does also, and you are right gary, the UK, but it varies wildly across different markets too. So I think the answer to your question, Alex, there's nothing consistent. So obviously the more developed markets are a little stricter with their criteria and their requirements. Whereas the emerging markets less so. I can even be customer specific, but certainly, I would say it's market specific at the moment.

Alex 19:00

And you touched on the question for me of installation, which I didn't think about. But I think it's actually quite important. You can have the best bit of kit, but if it's installed badly, Then you've got real problems. I've been to courts where the brand of the name of the court looks good But it's bumpy on the turf. And you know that the joints aren't quite you know where they should be in the glass. What's the relationship between the court builders and installers? And is it that court builders always say, you've got to use our installation team or you've got to use our recommended installation team in this market? Or it's we've sold you the product, what screwdrivers you use and who you use put that together, that's not our bag.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 19:44

Well, I think in terms of what I've done with padel ventures is try to do a sort of turnkey approach where if somebody is doing outdoor courts, you use my groundworks teams and we look with our structural engineers properly at the ring beams and how the tarmac is laid. So that the courts are going on to a quality surface. And, when we're fitting them then, we've got the best fitters. There's only one person to blame and that's me, if anything goes wrong. And we are, unfortunately, we're a blamed society, aren't we? So, that's why I like to do everything myself.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 20:24

Yeah, from our side. And maybe just to add there: very similar. I agree. Totally a turnkey solution. First of all, is what a customer will always prefer. Certainly from a manufacturing side. I think the answer to your question Alex, you're absolutely right. The quality of the court is one thing, but installation, and that includes a little bit of what Gareth is alluding to, the prep, the pre installation work, is of equal importance to the actual quality of the court. So that entire installation process, if it's not done correctly, something will go wrong very quickly. So for us, when you're positioning your brand as premium quality, that includes the whole installation or what we call the service side of the business too. So one thing is actually making the court, But then it's delivering it and installing it correctly. So we do offer multiple options of doing that, but generally speaking, we have our own installation teams and we send them around or we train installers in local markets, to verify them and then they're self sufficient and can go on. Because, speaking quite frankly, there's so much going on around the world on a global level at the moment, it's hard to be everywhere at once. So, we do need, again, probably this is more relevant to the emerging markets, maybe Asia Pacific as an example, where, we need them to get up to speed quite quickly on installing courts so that they can be self sufficient. We don't need to go physicallyeach time to do that.

Alex 21:43

And let's talk a little bit about where, Piero, you touched on this about the kind of the differentiations and the USPs that different court manufacturers can develop or can offer into the market. So let's talk a little bit about the different innovations that are happening in the court manufacturing space. So let's start off with these kind of extreme weather condition courts. And we can touch upon hurricane proof courts. We can touch upon Courts that can withstand either very high temperatures or very low temperatures or indeed a range of temperatures. How important now is that to the reputation of padel because there is nothing worse as a padel player or as a court builder to have courts that just can't deal with the Context or the geography or the climate that you are in. And we've gone beyond the one size fits all. So how important is it now that club brands consider these slightly more bespoke, slightly more niche products dependent on their geographies and climates?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 22:43

Yeah, I was going to really comment from maybe quotations that we're getting out there around the UK and around seaside resorts. Anybody can give you a price on a call. But have they considered what it might be like, those conditions with, the paint and, what can we do and what the manufacturer is offering in terms of, maybe like from a C3 to a C5 paint. That's probably a comment that, that I get quite a lot in the UK, people looking at seaside.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 23:11

In Italy. A lot of courts are on seasides. So of course you have when you do your planning, you have to understand that your court, if it's near the sea, needs an extra protection, of course. Then you have to deal with the winds. So this is why new courts have been designed that can withstand stronger winds. I know that MejorSet has some. Maybe others also have some. But of course, nobody is playing padel at 100 kilometers per hour. So I don't think there is nobody around. So even if a court falls down, I don't think there's nobody there. But in any case, there are regulations. Sometimes this regulation, maybe too strict, like in Germany, for example. And if you built padel courts, like if you built a building, which is not actually,, this regulation exists. So actually, you have to deal with that.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 24:03

Yeah. Yeah, I just pick up on that. Absolutely, alex. I think it is important because you're right. The one size fits all is no longer applicable. And as more and more emerging markets develop and pop up, and this is now all four corners of the world. So I think, speaking quite honestly and humbly about it, I think a lot of manufacturers have learned a little bit as we've gone: the evolution of the different markets we're going to. That means different climates. That means different needs for the court. So, we've developed I speak for ourselves, but we developed a hurricane proof court: extreme is the name of the model. So it's very, very different in terms of aesthetically. It is a bit more of a throwback to lots and lots of steel, because it needs to be to be robust. But it's specifically for those kind of markets you're alluding to: could be the Caribbean islands; could be Australia, New Zealand; could be Miami, Florida, those kind of areas where hurricanes and or let's say, extreme weather conditions are very prevalent. So, yes, Piero is right. First of all, there's the requirements and some are very strict on that and what's being allowed to be built. But outside of that is the customer understanding, that these options exist now. So, as I say, I think the manufacturers are reacting a little bit, I include ourselves in that to the needs of each market, but it's super important moving forward. Yeah,

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 25:21

Of course, indoor courts also have their requirements. But basically, indoor, you can install any court, provided there is a quality court, but I mean, you don't have the same restrictions that you have for outdoor courts. And also uh, going back to the cost issue, a lot of people wants cheap courts, so they don't care. so they buy any court. And this will go on for a certain number of years. Because at the beginning, when you don't have many courts in a country, these courts earned a lot of money, of course, because people choose a court for necessity. Because they don't find the court. So they want to play. But as long as the number of courts increases, then people will choose the court for the quality. And when this happens, of courts, we will get our revenge. Anybody. I mean us as consultants. Paul as fabricator. Garrett as installator. We wait. We're looking forward to it, in order to be able to explain to people all the implication around building a padel facility, which is not just buying the courts. The court is the ingredient. It's not the full dish. As I say. So they of course, if I want to build a proper facility, I also want a nice court, a quality court,

Alex 26:48

And what about temperatures? Does temperatures make a big difference? Can you put the same court up in Edinburgh as you put up in Riyadh? Or do you need to again consider that there is material requirements that come from that climate?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 27:03

yeah, absolutely. You need to consider it, Alex. And, you're right. It's not the same. You could put the same court up, but, in terms of the treatment of the court, which the guys alluded to a little bit in the steel structure and the heat and the humidity, which is probably more important than in those kind of climates. And again, Southeast Asia is an area I'm working quite a bit in at the moment. That's an issue, the humidity as much as the heat. So, there's protective treatments, there's extra coats you can put on the structure, the primer treatment that, that Piero talked about. If it is, as the guy said, this is global, doesn't have to be in a hot and humid climate, but if it is very close to, the sea, that the salt peter that comes off is going to have an effect. So that's important. But even other elements of the court: the turf too. Certainly we would recommend monofilament turf for outdoor facilities and hot, humid climates. That can be extreme heat. It could also be extreme rain in cases too. Again, I think this is something that the padel industry is learning as they go. 5, 10 years ago, it wasn't really a thought that had to go through a manufacturer's minds: the British climate or the Irish climate, what that actually means for the turf and the court if it's not covered, if it's outdoors, of course. so, those are all things you have to consider. It's not the same, depending on location.

Alex 28:12

And another innovation that I've seen recently, and I think Gareth you're involved in this development, is the floating padel court So I saw a video about this about a year ago where Uh paola jose maria and ari sanchez did a piece of content on a floating court. Then I saw ultra recently announced that they're putting four courts up in the sea Or in the waterways around miami. Is this a fad or is there like a genuine need that this is meeting? Where is that the solution?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 28:42

Well, yes, I am involved in it quite a bit. I'm just involved in planning my own floating club in the UK at the moment, which is quite exciting. And we should open that towards summer or late summer next year. It's activating water space really where everybody's looking for land and those options globally around this: that actually you can look at dock sides, marinas, uh, lakes, even reservoirs, bit more difficult on the sea because of the tides, as you can imagine. But I think why not, it's entertainment for somebody. You could get a lot of wet balls, but, the way that I've looked at it, coming in with my operator's hat on, is that I've seen what the rent and the rates are doing around the UK and the cost of build where not a lot of people looking at activating the water space. And I am. So I think it's quite an exciting. It's a challenging one. And build costs aren't much more than on land, but certainly the rent and the leases can be much more favorable.

Alex 29:48

And is the regulation different at all?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 29:53

No. You have to converse over here with the canal and river trusts and the waterways. But it's just the same: you go down the planning permission route and it's the same hurdles as we get with planning permission on land.

Alex 30:08

So I'm seeing your empire, Gareth, in Amsterdam, in Venice, in St. Petersburg. I'm seeing it all now. Um, so,

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 30:18

Well, Iin AmsterdaI'm in two weeks time. Yeah, I've got some interesting conversations coming up. Yeah. A,

Alex 30:24

Manchester is full of canals and so, there's ample opportunities.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 30:29

It's just full of rain, actually, Manchester, but yeah,

Alex 30:32

That's a separate issue. Sorry Paul, you were gonna

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 30:35

I was just going to add it's an interesting one because I like the way Garrett speaks, but I hadn't really thought of it that way in terms of activated water space. I would have answered your question. I say, I don't know if it's a gimmick or a fad, but I'd certainly say that it adds to the, you know, a lot of these sort of iconic or different venues add to the buzz around padel. And so I don't think that's bad for any of us. Okay, that's floating, but, rooftop padel courts that we've just done some in Jakarta and Indonesia. Anything that is a little bit different and, you can pitch as a, I don't know if iconic is the right word, but certainly a flagship site on a different kind of environment is good. We've all still got to understand that most people unfortunately still don't really know a lot about padel regardless of the market. I'm talking on an international level here. So anything that generates buzz and awareness of the sport is good for all of us. So I think it's very interesting angle.

Alex 31:27

And we haven't really touched on turf and lights. Is there much changing in that area? I think actually, Paul, you did mention the turf, depending on weather conditions. But, is there any other innovations in those two areas? Beyond the steel and the concrete and the glass. Where else are we seeing innovation? I think I saw a court at one point which had the ball holder in the net post but What else are we seeing in terms of the next frontier of courts and court manufacture?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 31:55

Yeah, from our side, I think Piero said it at the start, courts generally speaking look quite similar to people, most people, when you put them in. So there is obviously a lot behind that, behind the scenes in terms of design and innovation. You're always trying to tweak things To stay ahead of the game and ultimately stay ahead of competitors. So I guess an example for us would be with the premier padel model that we alluded to earlier that has a new innovation, what we call our shock lock, which is a anti vibration spring on the exterior of the court. so that's been really well received. It's quite a subtle addition to the court, but it's been very well received as something brand new and an innovation. First of all, it's important from the technical side of it and player protection and whatnot in terms of absorbing the vibrations. But I think what you'll find is it is quite subtle additions or changes and things that manufacturers are looking at because it's hard to reinvent the whole court all at once. You can do that, for example, going back to the extreme weather condition courts. But, as soon as you start doing that, you're going into a completely different price point. So that then has to be accepted by the market. So it's more likely to be smaller, subtle changes that can differentiate one, one court, one brand from another.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 33:05

I don't know whether Piero might be able to touch on this because it is an Italian company that have launched a sandless turf. So as we all know, monofilament or texturized turf, requires sand for playability. But I've not played on this particular turf. So that was quite interesting to see in the last week or two.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 33:27

No, I don't know anything about that. You know the name of the company?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 33:29

Yeah, the company: you'll know NX padel. So they've done a lot around the fiberglass courts. They've now launched a sandless turf.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 33:38

I know others that launched different kind of surface in Resins.

Alex 33:44

What about the fence, because traditionally the fence has been the classic fence, which is very three dimensional and that's part of the fun, hitting your Rulo into the fence and no one knowing how it's going to bounce. But is there, I think I saw a model of a court where they were basically saying we are going to be addressing that by trying to make it less three dimensional and making it more two dimensional. So actually the fence almost becomes two dimensional and that makes it more predictable. Which makes it less fun. Surely no one's asking for the fence to become more predictable. Are they?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 34:19

Not to us anyway. I guess it depends whether you win the point or not, but, that's part of the game. And I think that the purists enjoy that aspect where it works both ways, right? But certainly something that I think is traditional and will continue.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 34:34

I've always wanted to ask to those who manage and run the federation why they allow in padel the second serve, which, in my opinion, it's completely useless because you cannot miss a serve in padel, in ping pong or in volleyball you don't have the second serve. You have it in tennis, I understand why. But I mean, Why it exists in padel? Somebody knows? Maybe Paul knows?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 35:00

No, I don't know. I don't know. I'm not the best person to be asking about playing padel, but if you saw my level. But all I know is Pierrot, I miss a lot of first serve, so I probably,

Pro Players Abilities Forcing Rethinks & Lighting

Alex 35:10

I I was gonna say I could do with a third frankly sometimes Um I was gonna ask about the lights actually, because I was watching Arturo Coelho practicing, I think it was in Madrid last year And I noticed that he was practicing his x3s and he was working on the assumption that x3s are becoming actually increasingly a vulnerability, right? because they come up with a lot of top spin So they come up quite high. They give the person who runs out of the court quite a lot of time. And you're suddenly on the defensive. And so he was first of all, he was working a lot on trying to kick it really wide. Because he's left handed, he really wanted it, when it kicks out, to really kick out wide. To close the angle down for the person who's trying to get the ball back in the court. But the other thing I noticed him doing, He was aiming for the light So he was aiming that his kick would kick into the light fixture because he realized that if it hits the light fixture It's dead. It doesn't matter what else happens, it's dead. And so I was: I wonder what the light manufacturers and the light location is now going to think about this if suddenly this becomes a fad. I mean it feels pretty Out there and it feels pretty niche. But these players are doing things that was unthinkable five, ten years ago, in terms of technical ability. So, if Arturo is starting to hone his ability to hit light fixtures, then I think we might need to think about how we deal with lighting around these courts now.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 36:38

Maybe they'll have to introduce a let if all the players start doing that.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 36:41

absolutely. I think your point's right though, Alex. The players are evolving so quickly what they're doing now. So, any manufacturer, whether it's the court, the turf, the light, they have to look at that and make sure that they're adapting to that. So especially if, I wouldn't call it a deficiency in the product, I don't think it's that, but if an element of the product can be exploited by the players or whatever: they have to look at it. Again, I think with all elements of the court, there are certainly higher quality lighting than others. We work with different suppliers ourselves. So again, more in the premium end of that market. So they're the experts to talk about the actual why their lights are premium, the displacement of the light in the court and the lack of glare and all those sort of things. But if anybody's going to exploit that it's the elite players, I guess. So it's something to keep an eye on.

Alex 37:24

what about noise? In a few places, planning permission issues and regulatory issues have really hung their hat on noise and the noise of the ball being pinged off the glass, when you're hitting it off the back wall. That noise has become a nuisance quote unquote that has hindered planning permission processes. Has there been any development to try, I know rackets- They've tried to develop rackets that are quieter, and I know pickleball obviously has its own issues with sound. But has there been development in trying to decrease the noise that courts themselves generate?

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 37:57

Um, not really, not yet, Alex. No, it's just simply on the basis that we, I do take your point, but we don't hear it often enough. Certainly occasionally, but I think if you look at the U. S. market, as you alluded to there with pickleball, padel is lucky in that sense. The pickleball is much worse in terms of noise pollution. So, padels viewed as better in that regard. And then within Europe. Again, I can only I can speak about Spain where it's much more developed. We have 15, 16, 000 courts here. Most residential apartment blocks have them. And, yeah, they make noise, but it's not an consideration, a disruption that we have to think about regularly. So, so not yet. But I guess, like anything, if it becomes more and more prevalent as a problem, we'll have to look at it.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 38:40

It's actually the noise off the bat is louder, isn't it? Than the glass, in my opinion. When you play, the glass isn't as loud. But, going back to planning, every padel club that I've been involved with or court, there's always a noise survey in the uk.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 38:55

I've seen visiting clubs, I've seen that they now have the habit of putting music which is nice. If you choose the right music, I think should be an element of any club. There is music in the clubs, and it helps a lot.

Alex 39:11

agreed.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 39:12

Metallica.

Cheaper Courts

Alex 39:14

Drum and bass. Yeah. So we talked a little bit, we started the conversation about concrete courts. We talked a little bit about costs. It made me think about the fact that as padel grows in new markets, there are a lot of premium club offerings, and that's somewhat based on the heavy capital investment up front. Does the market have a Concern or even a product that addresses the concern that can drive court bill costs right down for greater community courts, accessible courts, cheaper bills to try and create a broader market that isn't so top heavy in these newer markets. We look at the u. s We look at the uk We look at sweden we look at even southeast asia to some degree. There's a lot of these facilities are quite premium, and I know it's not all down to the courts, because the courts are not the only cost. But, is there a sense of, while we can't go back to the good old days of the concrete court, is there a way of going, right, we need to create a much cheaper configuration of materials that will allow court builders to create more accessible courts?

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 40:20

I don't think it's an issue. Concrete courts are much more expensive than glass courts, first of all. And secondly, the costs are at minimum. And third and most important, the cost of the court is just a small part of the cost of the entire development. So it shouldn't be an issue in my opinion. We should invest in safer courts and, maybe more technological courts. this, I agree. Or maybe different kinds of surfaces. Why we should play just on grass, for example. Like in tennis could have different places. I mean, I don't think that cost is an issue. People can buy cheaper, cheap courts in China now. For 10,000 dollars you can buy a court if you want. I mean, good luck, but you can do that. I don't think it's an issue, honestly, the price of the court. I don't know. Paul,

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 41:13

Again, I think it's probably important to say, as our positioning is again at the premium end, that a lot of those clubs you're alluding to Alex are, that's a segment that we've strategically identified and want to work with. So, that's the end of the market that we're mainly involved in. But you're right. We also don't want to disregard. I think you talked about maybe more community based facilities, things like that. So. I think as Gareth said at the start, if you just focus in on the panoramic model, then that's where price and budget and things come up a lot. But we do still have the traditional model, the classic, what we call it our vPro classic model. So, most manufacturers still have that as an option and that's significantly more cost effective than the full panoramic model. As Piero says costs, are at a minimum as they are. But again, within each portfolio, there will be options. So not everybody absolutely needs to or does buy the top model. Let's say the full panoramic.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 42:07

Yeah, and as far as club developers are concerned, I would say that what is important in my opinion is the concept behind the facility. People will buy places, they don't buy product anymore. So, as I said before, now in many countries, they choose a padel court because they want to play and there are no courts. But in time, in two, three years, even in England, maybe in three, four years, people will choose quality and they will choose a club like they choose a restaurant. So you need the branded concept behindand n courts can be part of this concept. If I want to eat something fast and cheap, I go to the very cheap restaurant. And I have my Paper tablecloth and I have my chair or I eat standing up. But if I want to spend an evening with my friends and I want to live an experience, I go to my favorite club. Like I would if I have to invite people to a restaurant. I choose a good restaurant. If I want to invite people to a padel club, I would choose a good padel clubs. And the courts will be part of this equation in my view. But you still need a concept. Otherwise, you will become a provider of services while you should be a destination. Because if you are a destination, you can keep your price level high. If you are a provider of services, in Barcelona, I can play padel for two euros per person. In my club in Vilanova Ilakhiltrut, I play for two euros per person. It's a community court. This is why the courts are always part of the equation of the club

Alex 43:41

And is there, this may sound a bit of a strange question, but is there an optimum number of courts at a club or a range?

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 43:48

Well, to become a club you need more than a couple of courts, to have that club environment. In my opinion, I'd say anything from three plus, you start to become a club and create that, social environment. As Piero touched on, You build that sort of community and that club feel and, again, in my opinion, the more successful people that are doing this as operators, it's not just about the padel court, it's about everything else around the padel and what people are doing.

pierfrancesco--wsbsport-_1_11-07-2024_173417 44:22

You install a court on the top of a skyscraper, maybe you can price that 400 per match, maybe one court is enough. It depends where you put the court. Otherwise, maybe you might need maybe 30 courts to do a profitable club. It depends what your concept is.

gareth-_1_11-07-2024_163419 44:38

It's the same as golf. I can go and play golf at Manchester municipal and it might be cost me 10. But then I can go to Barbados and play on the Green Monkey and it cost me 4, 000 per round. So, yeah, I don't do that all the time. Yeah, but

Alex 44:55

looks like your business is doing very very well.

paul-mc-cormick_1_11-07-2024_173417 45:00

I'd just agree with the guys there. We're manufacturers, so it's a hard question to answer. But certainly from experience, the clubs that have been more successful, I think three to four is a, we'd love every club to have six, eight, ten courts, of course. but three to four is a pretty consistent number. But I absolutely agree with Garrett's point that outside of the court, if they have a food and beverage element, or other revenue streams that will add to things then all the better for that. Because if there's one thing, I can speak from experience, having lived 20 years in Spain and having watched the evolution of padel in 20 years: yes, it's a fantastic sport and yes, the facilities are generally speaking, very good. The weather's great, generally speaking. But it's the, as we all know, it's the social aspect, why padel has triumphed so much and that community vibe. So, you need to have a facility that accommodates that. And that'll ultimately help with additional revenue streams for sure for your club. But also the repetition factor of people coming back and getting addicted to the sport and continuing to play.

Alex 46:01

Good words to finish our episode on, because that pretty much wraps it up. Again please like, share and subscribe if the content was thought provoking. Please comment on LinkedIn or Twitter if you have any recommendations around our format. Topics we should devote an episode to, questions we should ask people we need to bring on. We want you all, those driving the next phase of this industry's future, to tell us what you want to hear about and who from. Thank you Paul, Gareth and Pierre Francesco for joining us today. keep doing our best to cover all the angles of the business around padel, episode after episode. Until the next one.