All The Angles Padel Business Podcast S2 E11: Is Padel Too Premium? Debate

This episode we do something different.

I play devil's advocate and put forward a proposition. And I ask some experts from the industry to agree or argue.

This first debate asks Soul Padel's Mark Hewlett, InstantPadel's Christoffer Granfelt and Taktika Padel's Ryan Redondo to question whether the sport of padel is being positioned and promoted as a pasttime for the affluent and elite. Is the reputation of the sport and its ecosystem veering to hard towards luxury, celebrity and premium? And if so, what are the benefits and dangers of that perception, or indeed reality?

The conversation demands a bit more opinion, and taps into concerns. 

However you look at this issue, there are some interesting points and counterpoints presented by our industry heavyweights.

#padel #padelbusiness #padelmarketing #padelbrand #padelperception #premiumpadel #elitepadel #luxurypadel #luxpadel #sportsbiz #sportbusiness 

Transcript

Introduction

Alex 0:05

ladies and gentlemen, Damas Caballeros. Thank you for joining us for another episode of All the Angles, the Business of padel podcast worldwide, powered by the Hexagon Cup. This week we're gonna do things a little bit different, where we're going to effectively look at a proposition or an argument about padel and the business of padel. And the proposition is that effectively padel is, especially in the new markets of the world, is being over premiumized. And we'll get into defining what over Premiumized is. But effectively my concern is that too much of the market and too much of the projects in the space are leaning to a market, a premium audience. And that is, a concern and that is something that we need to be aware of and perhaps even address. Now, I'm not gonna be debating this by myself. Uh, I'm fortunate enough to have three people from different corners of the padel market and different corners of the globe to discuss this with me. First of all joining me from California, I have Ryan Redondo, who is the CEO of Taktika padel. He's also the CEO of Youth Tennis San Diego and San Diego Stingrays, who are one of the teams from the US based Pro padel League. He's also a co-founder of RK T three group. And that is really all to say that he has spent pretty much 20 years in and around tennis padel Youth Sport in California. So a great person to join us from that point of view. I've also got from Sweden joining me is Christopher Granfelt. He has, since 2020, been the CEO of Instant padel. Which has installed hundreds of courts across 20 plus countries around the world. He's a Stockholm based entrepreneur in the tech and social impact space. So thank you for joining me as well. And then finally, we have Mark Hewlett, who is, uh, joining me for the second time for an episode. He is from England, and has a long history with big box retailers, but is also the founder and board member around healthy lifestyle projects. And perhaps most specifically relevant to this conversation, he launched Soul padel Back in 2023. So thank you all for joining us for this discussion, debate Exploration. We'll see how it goes. Before we get started, if you enjoyed this episode or have benefited from previous ones, please do like, share, subscribe. It genuinely helps visibility. So without further ado, let's start with again, this proposition. The proposition is: the sport of padel, especially in the new markets that are joining the, shall we say, the growth of the sport. The way that the sport is being positioned is over premiumized. That means, just to go into detail, is that the projects, the products, the services in the padel space are being marketed and developed in a way that makes them mostly, or primarily, premium, exclusive, elite, luxury. Any of those words really fit. And so really my first question to the group is, do we accept this premise? Do we accept the premise that padel is being disproportionately positioned as a sport for affluent urbanites, business networkers, wellness focused elites Or am I wrong? Is it a bit more nuanced than that? Is it a region by region thing? Is it a product of asymmetric pr? What's your first reaction to the premise? And Ryan, let's start with you.

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 3:30

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on and, uh, especially with these great entrepreneurs and gentlemen. Very honored to be on here. my argument is, and I'll speak for Taktika as well, we believe there's a space for everybody. But the imbalance is going towards that over premium market share that everybody is looking to get. So we do believe that it is trending a little too far to that luxury, to the wall Street model. Whereas we're very different. And I'm not saying we are very different, that we're any better. There's space for everybody. But we have to make sure that we're able to make padel for everybody. And I can go on and on about the reasons why in which if we overprice it, if we make it so exclusive that kids cannot play, there is no padel in the future. If, tournaments are not accessible to run because you need to hit a certain amount of occupancy on the court, there probably is no padel in the future. So it, it's all interconnected. And we have to make sure that we do have those premium spots. Because that does get attention and that it is getting the, the commercialization that padel needs in say, United States. But we also need the parks to come into play. We need the schools to come into play. And so I do agree with, uh, your argument, Alex.

Alex 4:49

And Mark, I see you nodding along. What's your take from, shall we say, the more British slash European perspective? Do you echo what Ryan is saying?

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 4:59

Look, again, thank you for having me on, Alex, it's a pleasure to be here and sharing company with Christoffer, and Ryan. It's an interesting question in this,'cause you could look at this, has it been done by design? Has the premiumization of the early entrant of padel into the UK market been done in a way that attracts so much attention that it becomes aspirational. And then you've got the old dynamics of scarcity as the best form of marketing leading to lots and lots of people hearing about this sport, seeing it on their social media feeds, seeing lots of people who are aspirational role models, sports personalities in particular. Has that been a very, very clever marketing by design stunt done by someone or something to create this fervour and excitement around the sport. That said: it is a problem. And I think if you look at the, the bifurcation of society between, to use Ryan's terminology, wall Street versus Main Street, if padel is always only ever gonna be for those that can afford the time and the money to play the sport, then it will never get that mass participation that we all aspire for. And it will never become, you know, a truly embedded grassroots sport. Correct me if I'm wrong, I think this did happen in other countries. It's not just, the US and the UK are experiencing this early mover, premiumization. My view on that is a lot of the people who started those early clubs have either experienced it in a luxury capacity on holiday and have thought, this is a great idea, let's bring it back to the uk. Or have actually got padel clubs already in other countries. but yeah I think it is a problem if we let it be a problem. And it needn't be allowed to be a problem, is my view.

Alex 6:45

So Christopher, mark mentioned other markets. Usually Sweden shortly follows when someone worries about where padel might have got it slightly wrong, and obviously you are from that market. Can you give us sense of, Sweden or of course, broader perspective on how you see the over premiumization of padel?

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 7:04

Yeah, sure. From my perspective, I think that we're still very young industry. And we should be celebrating everyone up till this day that have done anything, even if it's premium or non-premium, because they have been truly entrepreneurial. They have had a passion for something. They thought it and they did it. So out of a perspective of the entrepreneurial side, follow your passion, follow your dream, like just do it, without being sponsored by Nike. I think that as it's a very important standing point: this topic is really, really important. So I'm really happy to be part of this pod because in Sweden we very fastly had an overgrowth because the institutional investors got scared on missing out. And Corona helped as well, of course. But you know, non-communication, everybody built in a metaphoric way, like five Hilton hotels beside each other. And then you say padel is dead, or, you know, the hotel industry doesn't work. It's all about how you execute it, right? So in the sense of that, during my journey, and the reason why we even started is because I saw that everyone is basically due to the industry being so young, everybody's following each other. Everybody's, scared of basically breaking out and doing something new. And what happens then is that you tend to follow each other because you don't wanna mess up. And the second part is that the high CapEx that is needed in order to secure land and space and to build up; the investors who, whoever starts, they need to get their money back. The main problem that I see is, to be honest, what happens after five years? If you haven't been a true, genuine social impact player trying to get more than just trying to sell booking hours. Then, if you haven't done more than that, you are going to become less important. So in the sense of the Sweden journey that was basically boosted a lot. If you converted to the UK journey, it's less boosted because people don't get their permits as fast, which is a good thing. Because then people get to think more. And one thing of my journey is that today I have a higher purpose. I don't sell padel courts. I want to activate dead areas to become social and fun and inspiring and sporty. That's my passion. And if more people around us can get a higher purpose, I think we can get the councils and the government or the park and recreations in the US to start understanding that they need to take part. In other case, it's gonna still be a problem.

Alex 10:04

so I think that's a neat summary of your positions and thank you for stating them. I wanted to go through like a few, should we say five or six kind of segments or areas where I think the concern is probably in the sharpest focus. And get your takes on it. And whether you think that area is as bad as it looks or actually it's not as bad as it looks. But let's start with court pricing. We alluded to the ability of people to get on court and, you know, this must in some ways feel strange to places like Spain where courts cost, you know, single figure euros to, to go and play. And that is obviously due to how many courts are available in most of these big cities. But you look at London where, the prices can reach about 50 pounds per person per hour. Paris has around 50 euros per hour per person. New York is about$75. Dubai up to 350 Dirham per hour, and Singapore is around 80 per hour. So that nets out and I did some kind of preliminary maths, that nets out at around five to 10% of daily income when indexed against average monthly net income in those respective markets. That's a significant chunk of people's incomes and revenues. And for a comparison, it obviously puts that number much higher than five side football pitches or community tennis courts. So let's kind of take a step back. Why is it so expensive to play padel outside the sports Hispanic heartlands? What's the justification for these high costs, which by definition are prohibitive? Mark, maybe you want to start here.

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 11:43

It's a factor of the input. and it's a factor of choice of location. So the input costs in the UK, in the US, in Sweden are high anyway. Labor is high, land prices are high, materials and equipment prices are high. The choice of location. And we've mentioned a few interesting choices of locations already: schools, council land. If people want the premium model and want to develop the premium model, and by the way, I'm not against that. I don't think it's a negative thing. As Christopher said, every single market on earth has segmentation with premium at the top and budget at the bottom. It's natural. It's what happens in capitalism. We can't avoid that. But if you go after premium locations and your input costs are high, the factor that comes out the other side is the court rental prices will be higher than they would be had you chosen different areas to develop; all things being equal, it comes down to geography and it comes down to inflation and it comes down to as Christopher said, the length of time it takes to get a permit to develop or a plan application approval. All of these input costs, inclusive of construction, will lead to a figure. Now is that figure in terms of pounds or dollars or Euros per hour per person palatable to the vast majority of people who live in that country on the basic minimum wage or average wage? The answer to that at the moment in the UK is, no, it isn't. Because there isn't or there aren't enough padel clubs who have the right input costs, the right real estate strategy and the right operating environment to deliver a price that is palatable. There are a few. We think we are one of them. How to replicate that model is what I work on every single day. But I don't think premiumization is a bad thing, but it is a factor of many different complex inputs that produce an output. And that output is how high is the entrepreneur's aspirational margins when he opens that or she opens that padel club.

Alex 13:49

Is that the same story for you, Ryan, or have you found America to be a slightly different narrative?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 13:55

I think it's interesting, like, so if we go back to the first part of that question or comment, at least in the United States, whether you're going to install a court in Beverly Hills or you're gonna install a court out in the middle of the desert, it's pretty much the same cost, right? If you're gonna put a Padel Gallis court or any manufactured court, the install costs Christopher, you're gonna argue that, but in general, everybody is paying the same cost. Now, it goes back to the geography, and it goes back to where you wanna put it in that location. And that becomes not just the business and the industry, it also becomes the cultural and the trendy. Where do you wanna put these courts? So let's just talk about our geographical location in Southern California, you know, Beverly Hills, Culver City. We're starting to see a lot of developments there, and that is that affluent area where they are gonna need to make that monthly rent, right? Or if you look in Miami, they're popping up everywhere into Christopher's point. Let's see where they all are in five years, right? When you're spending, 40 to$50,000. So what we've seen is, they start at X amount of dollars per hour. Within a couple months when people are not showing up, they're bringing their prices down. Which brings me to that point of the regular consumer. Just compare that to going to the movies. If you're gonna spend$20 on movie ticket and a beer or a drink, you're gonna be able to do that a couple times a month. Or maybe you do that once a week, or you go out with your friends. that kind of trend that we're seeing, that we're trying to attach to. That what is the everyday person able to do? And that's that part of the focus we're targeting because it goes to the business model. We're a joint venture model where we have partnerships. But we are building our first padel only club in Los Angeles. But we are in a very Hispanic market where we know on Main Street they're gonna know when they see those courts, what that is.

Alex 15:43

But are they gonna baulk Ryan if they see high prices? Because there's a lot of markets, whether it's Miami. Or California or even parts of Texas where the feeling is we need to have looked to the Hispanic market because the Hispanic market is already ofay, or fluent with the concept of the sport; may already be looking to play the sport. But when they go and see that the court costs are x times what they remember when they were back in Mexico City or in Merida or wherever they were playing previously. Is that disconnect in some ways even more jarring? Because for someone who's not from a Hispanic background, they may say, oh, okay,$40 an hour, that's fine, sounds good. But someone from Mexico or with a history, a Mexican upbringing might go, wait a second. I remember what those courts were like, when I went back to visit my grandma, they were nowhere near$40. So is that targeting of the Hispanic market challenging when you come to the court fees that they have to pay versus what they remember from their home market?

Focusing on Affordability Initiatives & Solutions

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 16:43

Yeah, I think so. And it's also a blend. Like I use the movie ticket analogy. I mean, we have people that will go to our Carson sites in Los Angeles and drive about an hour. Because they can play between eight to$15, rather than having to spend the 40 to$50. And they want to genuinely play the sport. This is what they are passionate about, and they're willing to travel for that because of the price. So that overpricing will be an issue unless you're really targeting that specific area for that, one to 5% that can actually afford it. Then that's that space for them. And that's great. They're gonna do a great job and, that experience for that demographic is available.

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 17:22

Well, one, one thing that I'm thinking of is also like how we execute things. And in what ways do we know the schools, the public areas, the NGO companies or other companies? Because everyone that I speak to, since this is my sort of passion or higher purpose, everybody agrees. But there is very little execution on it. So what I can get frustrated about is that everyone sits and agrees and wants to broaden the sport and do more for the kids and families, and not so well areas or fortunate areas. But really the discussions should be what kind of activities, what can we do? Like we are several people in the industry: really good hearted guys, girls that really wanna do good things. And we have the passion for sports. And if it's rackets, tennis, padel or pickle really doesn't matter. We are building a community. We are trying to foster a good way of living and healthy lifestyle. And in that sense it may be about packaging our offering better and to involve the public and the schools in a better way, more clearer way because they don't know really how to handle us coming in. They don't really know how to handle that. And I think that would be really the key to get it more broadened.

Impact of Investment Philosophies

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 18:47

Christopher, you pick up some really interesting points there, particularly when it comes down to: how does society and particularly schools, local councils, how do they interact with commercial entities when they're used to interacting with national governing bodies? So padel is now a commercial entity in itself and, and has been subdivided into various different operators. It's very difficult for schools and parks to understand that. And I think that's something that we as a sport and we as a group of operators need to get better at: is developing solutions for padel to become more prevalent to those who haven't got 20 quid, 30 quid to spend per hour playing the sport. The, the other thing that you touched on was this, it's the mentality around the investment. Is the investment short term or is it long term? Is it there to build a community or is it there to build an exit valuation? And that's the problem with the premiumization of padel is that let's build five or six clubs, let's put the price at x and let's hope in three years we are 10 X in our original investment and everybody's happy and we walk away. There then is a void where a sports and a community should exist. Like you our mission, our vision is to welcome everybody to the court. We intend wherever we go to build longevity into the communities that we create through padel. I don't think genuinely within the UK that mentality exists amongst every single operator. And therefore what you've got is this play on the demand and supply leading to premiumization because they can. and that, will prevail as we've said already for 3, 4, 5 years. and then as Warren Buffett said, you'll find out who's swimming naked when the tide goes out. And that's ALDI and Lidl's strategy and has been for 25 years. We will build longevity into our business model. We will price our goods accordingly, and then everyone else will have to meet us at our level. And if you've not built your operating system at that particular unit economics, you're goosed. And whether that'll happen, whether we can philosophize around that it is irrelevant. I think that is a factor of premiumization.

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 21:09

I was just gonna say we probably created another segment for Alex to have another podcast because you went into the philosophical. And if you look at tennis, for instance, if tennis were to be absent from the American market, that disrupts a lot of different ecosystems in the academic side. For instance, we have CIF, California Interscholastic federation. That is a, a fabric of how kids learn to play tennis. It's a part of the learning system is, which is why the collegiate system is so important. Spain and Argentina that have had a pathway, for padel, right? You can become a coach. You become a world champion. Those have that longevity of why you need to stay around. Again, I think it's probably another segment, but it's a good point that we have to have those pathways for the longevity of the sport. So I really appreciated that.

Alex 22:01

I wanted to talk, Christopher, this is probably your sweet spot. This idea of the court build. So when we talk about court fees, one of the first response to court fees is, well, I need to make the money back'cause I spent so much money upfront. Although I often feel like there's a bit of an excuse because yes I, there's significant infrastructure in court build and as well as risk upfront. But you hear these stories, we made all our infrastructure costs back within eight months. So you're like, okay, so they couldn't have been that bad then, or your court fees are actually disproportionately high that you can recoup your spend in such a short window. So does that argument hold up: that the infrastructure costs upfront are one of the key drivers of the costs on the backend in terms of the rentals? Or is it, as I think Mark alluded to, it's just really about margin. And trying to make maximized margin for as long as possible rather than trying to recoup these quote unquote crippling upfront

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 23:00

It's about expectancy. I think Mark nailed it basically. If you make a pitch deck and you want to get some dollars in to build x courts, and then you made a business plan on when the investors is gonna retrieve their money back or the business case for the next venue popping up, that's the route you have to go because that's sort of the proposition you gave from the start. So I think we are still new industry, but I think it's about understanding that we are maturing and the way to mature is to think more long term. So if you look at the way we've been starting this, which has been a great start, a tremendous start. It may have been a more short term sort of approach. But if we start to think about the long term, who do we want to be? What kind of impact do we want? In what ways do we want to be proud? I think then all of a sudden you will see the pitch deck starting to be different. And when they start to be different, you will be able to start your longer term journey. That's what I would say.

Alex 24:06

Any thoughts, Ryan or Mark about the court build costs being, the key reason for some of the costs that are then passed on to the consumer on the back end?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 24:17

I think the court costs as well as the city, the permitting, the requirements that the city puts on the builder and the company is it's really outrageous at this moment in California and probably most of the United States. So that definitely sucks up a lot of the capital and the expenses that you're trying to recoup right away. It's not just the courts and the installers. Concrete, permits, architectural, we did a project once and the things that the city were asking, it was like we were building the Hilton. And we're like, Hey, listen, we're putting a concrete slab down for padel courts and pickleball courts. I said, where's the elevator? And they didn't like his comments, but it's the cost that we had to put in to ensure that this got done. And, that was on us. But yeah, there's a lot of different ways that it's going to get better. And that's the education part and that's the exposure that we're gonna continue to get. What do you think Mark?

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 25:14

The immaturity of our markets is leading to high prices. And the supply chain is weak right now into the uk for courts, for groundworks, for canopies. Everything to do with padel really is only two to three years old at best. So you have got people who can charge what they want to charge for products because there is no alternative. Or the alternative is do the hard work and go out, get your boots on the ground in Spain and find a factory. That will settle down as domestic supply comes online. And I'm pretty sure there's someone somewhere thinking about how to make padel courts in the uk, the US and all parts of Asia. And knowing the Australian market reasonably well, down there too. Once that supply chain is settled and there's a regular demand for courts and canopies and groundworks, the prices will start to regulate for those that wanna build outside or build outside covered courts. What won't go away though is that the price of land on our tiny island is only ever going one way. So how do you find sensible lease prices in a competitive market? And that's where your team and its skills and its experiences and, and the partners that you work with can help you root out the right types of deals in the towns and cities that you wanna operate in. The other thing that isn't going away is the inflation in wages. The UK minimum wage now is 12 pound 21. That's only gonna go up. And so if you wanna open a padel club and you wanna have it staffed for 16 hours a day, you're looking at a minimum outgoings of around about a hundred thousand pounds when you factor in pensions, national insurance. So once you've done your homework on the input costs and you've done a great deal on the rent, the outcome is I need to charge X to make money. The task of the operator in each team, is to make X look decent so that you can get investment to do clubs 2, 3, 4, and five. That's hard. That's really hard. So, as much as premiumization at the moment scares us, the prices that those people have rented those warehouses-and they're primarily premiumization is happening indoors, not outdoors- the prices that they've paid to rent those warehouses are unsustainably high. If they have to reduce the court prices that they're currently charging. Because of competitive tension. And that's an if; it might not happen, they might have found a perfect location where a hundred pounds an hour will never be challenged. I doubt that very much, but it is a very, very interesting space to watch. It's not unusual in a new market entering into a new country. The whole sector needs to settle down. It Just seemed to have started at the high end rather than at the budget end. and my view on the UK, it might be different for you guys in, in other countries., The UK is, outside of London, the UK is a budget market. We fly with Easy Jet or Ryanair. We drink our beer in weather spoons. We eat our pies in Greg's, we do our shopping at Lidl and Aldi. Premium brands are niche in the uk. They do well, but they do primarily better in the southeast of the country. That's primarily where we're seeing premiumization in padel. That won't stick elsewhere. I can almost guarantee that.

Alex 28:37

And just to build on this, the why of the premiumization. We've got the amenities, right. So I've seen a few decks, I've seen a few clubs in my time. Padium in the UK raised about 30 million pounds to build, quote unquote boutique padel clubs across the uk, costing three to 5 million pounds each featuring cocktail lounges, designer locker rooms, and hospitality areas. Matcha Club in Dubai offers Japanese minimalist architecture, infrared saunas, plunge pools, and a member's only rooftop lounge. And Padel united Sports Club is within easy commute of Manhattan and also has an automated massage robot. And then you've got a lot of these clubs have got co-working spaces. Some of'em have got private chefs, VIP lounges, spa beauty services: clearly aligning themselves with that luxury wellness market rather than sport or health kind of at its most rudimentary level. So it's not exactly screaming out community and accessibility. Do you think that's just a case of trying to find bolt on services that can justify the cost of membership or court fees? Or is it something else? It's just a double down on this is the padel that we want, this is the padel that we like. We want to offer those kind of services because my worry, and we keep, I think we'll keep coming back to it, is what is the reputation of the sport? I think if, when you see things like that, you see services like that, you see communities like that, features on these places, you will either think, I love that, I'm paying for that. Or you think I wouldn't be seen dead in that and they don't want to see me in there. And the bifurcation becomes pretty stark. So how do we feel about these kind of bolt-on amenities? Is there a kind of allergic ness to just your nuts and bolts padel courts? Do you need these extra bits and bobs?

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 30:34

I think we have an open market. I think that, we have in the car industry, we have some luxury cars and then we have some cars, and then we have some really cheap cars. And then you have secondhand. And I think that it's all about not basically focusing so much on them. That's clearly a type of target group that will be there. But I think that one thing that could be is the consciousness of things because before in Sweden it was only padel clubs, like padel courts. There was no padel social. It was just four, eight or sometimes 30 padel courts. And people went in there like a vending machine and you just played padel. And then after a while, the intensity goes down because the sports grabs you. You want to play, you want to play more, you want to evolve and you get crazy within padel for some years. But after a while it matures, and then it becomes like any other sport and you start maybe picking up golf or tennis as well with padel. You don't stop playing padel, but it's not as intense. One thing, just a hypothesis, whatever you call it, could be that when you do this pitch deck or when you have this idea, you want to make sure that you create a enough interesting spot for people to wanna join and become members in for a longer time. That could be one. Or the entrepreneur behind this just love this type of environment. And he, she should just go ahead and do it. But I think it's more about, again, back to the question, who do you want to be? Like who do we want to be? And like, mark, you're having a very clear positioning on what you wanna build. And that's very clear. And that also inspires a lot of other people I think. Things takes time and when things mature, it'll be segmented out. Right now it's a majority of premium, right? Is that right? I don't think so. But is that wrong? No. Because it built the awareness of padel. But in the years to come 2, 5, 10 years of maturity, we will have it all. It will be the simpler clubs for the ones that only want to play padel, and there will be luxury clubs that wants to go and have a bath as well. That's my take on it. So it's not something we can stop I think. It's more about connecting our brains and not just copycat everyone. Just, stop. Who do you want to be? And do it.

Alex 33:02

What's Taktika's take on this Ryan? Have you got any robot massage therapy going on at Taktika?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 33:10

Um, yes, I can say we do because of our model. So we're in probably one of the nicest diamond star resorts, Fairmont Grand Del Mar, LeBron James got married there. Louis Vuitton is rented out the whole resort. So we actually operate in there. We operate at a cost that is comparable to how we operate at the Barnes Tennis Center where anybody can go and play. So yes, we do. And I think to that point, when you look at these beautiful clubs, and I would love to own them. I would love to be there and be a part of that. But that just kind of goes towards society, right? We have the FOMO Society, we have the Instagram Society. So that's what we see. So what is really going to build the community and build the sport? I have a men's group on Thursday nights that has a waiting list on all seven of our courts. We have a women's group on Wednesday night. That's the longevity of the sport. That's the growth of the sport, right? We don't necessarily see that in the commercialization or perhaps the pitch deck. But to me, we gotta go back to how did tennis start in the us? Well, tennis it blew up on Parks and the Rec the grassroots is what really grew that up. It was rock and roll before it became this member only club, which actually hurt it. And now we're starting to see that the public clubs, those have waiting lists now again, so tennis is actually growing. So we have brothers or sisters that we can learn from. Again, as Mark and Christopher said, we're still so early in. But Taktika's point is yes, you can do all of those things. And I say we can serve everybody. And we do it with partnerships. So we have a great partnership with the traveling sauna. It's owned by three Scandinavian football players, professional football players. They bring in a sauna, they bring in the cold plunge and then they're out. So yeah, we do provide that experience and you're gonna be able to afford it. Yeah, Taktika wanna go, where the masses are. We want it to be for everybody. And we love when, we see the LA padel Club. I saw some of their renderings. It's beautiful. so we have to promote everybody. We have to celebrate everybody. We have to make sure that everybody's successful. And it's in that marketing. We're that Instagram culture now.

Alex 35:16

I think that brings a really interesting point, because I think as these last points have been making, it's really about visibility and what is visible. So when I think of padel I think of the branding of padel and I think of the narrative in so many outlets, the mood music in most public consciousness platforms. Is one that reinforces this kind of corporate friendliness, deluxe and exclusive. So some of the headlines that I saw recently were in the Financial Times padel is the new golf. In the business Insider Reserve padel where CEOs come to play. In Bloomberg from Wall Street to West London: how padel became the sport of the affluent. In Monocle, the sport of champagne and sweat. And then you look at some of the names that orbit the sport, whether it's the Formula One drivers, whether it's David Beckham, whether it's brands like Lamborghini, Prada, Versace. So even the tension that is currently occurring in the padel space in the uk. And mark will be aware of this. It looks like Middle England, NIMBYs, which is not in my backyard, NIMBYs, who are fighting those entrepreneurs who have too much time and money who want to put up their clubs, right? So the fight isn't between the haves and the have nots. It's between, like I said, middle Englanders versus affluent padel players. And so it seems like it's one of those fights you don't want anybody to win. But the point I'm trying to make is this mood music of affluence. And I mentioned it right at the beginning, is this an asymmetry of pr more than an asymmetry of padel provision? If you do a pure count of how many courts are below a certain price and how many courts are above a certain price, you'll find actually more balance than what you will see if you just look at things from a PR media monitoring perspective. Is this more of a visibility and a branding issue than an actual offering range and extent, quantity and quality concern?

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 37:13

Alex, I, I think there's a risk that it is, perception rather than reality. But perception is being built from somewhere. And so if you look at where all those news media outlets are headquartered, their experience of padel is on their doorstep in London where it's expensive. They're gonna see celebrities playing there. They're gonna see celebrities investing there. Most entrepreneurs who go out for investment target angels, usually in that startup phase. There's one thing that an angel needs is money. So therefore they're gonna be attracted to a pitch deck that shows premiumization and luxury services and towels, champagne, ice baths, you name it. I think the reality is somewhat different now. And when you look at the proliferation of padel around Manchester in particular, there are now 28 places to play padel in Greater Manchester. Now, some parts of Manchester are affluent, no doubt, south Manchester in particular, and parts of the city center are becoming in. Premiumized. But the vast majority of people who live within the 10 boroughs of Greater Manchester would be considered average UK citizens. But they have embraced padel wholeheartedly in their thousands because there are now places where they can play at an affordable rate. It has forced early movers to reduce court rates as a consequence of, midterm to latter term movers coming into the market. I think manchester's a probably a microcosm of what will happen around the UK as more and more padel operators come into the market. Segmentation will happen. So purely outdoor, outdoor covered and indoor. And then you'll have budget, mid and then premiumization going on. But it will take some years for that to filter through to other parts like Newcastle and Liverpool. Both working class cities, both famous for their passion and obsession with football. Both only have really one padel club each. And you've got a million people in and around the larger geographic areas of those cities. So if Manchester is an example of what will happen in the rest of the uk, then padel's got a very good future. And the price for padel will come down as a consequence of competition. But I think the perception, Alex is driven from the media's obsession with London in the uk. And, London is a completely different country to the rest of the uk. And it's clearly not visited Christopher's club and talked too much about price to play Instapadel at Canada Water. It's obsessed with the luxury side of the sport, which is, I don't think it is the reality, but it is a problem for the sport.

Alex 39:54

Christopher, what's your take on that? Is it just a sense of what we see rather than what is actually going on out there?

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 39:59

I do hope so. I mean, I believe in mankind. And I think that more people are really wanting to make an impact on the longer term with a good faith. It's not just about money. So I think what we are seeing is that the media obsession, again, with celebrities and in their way to get some clicks and some readers and whatever, you need to put it out there. And that's why it gets very focused on that. Because we don't have the stories yet. But in five years from now with Ryan's on Thursdays becomes even more greater, the nicer stories around the whole grassroots and how people actually are playing, enjoying, and it's organically by themselves. Then it becomes stories to pick up. But right now there are very few stories out there. If you think about it. If you look at our industry, it's the same people. We're a small industry and it's gonna get bigger. And I think that the good thing about our industry in that sense is that I feel that we are open, we are supportive. We are very, in a sense very, good group of people. And I hope that stays. Because once industries starts to mature and become a bit larger and older, people tend to be a bit more protective. And I hope that we can save that, mentality, and hope that that mentality doesn't come in destroy our way of to support each other. Either if it's a luxury club or if it's a grassroots type of activity.

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 41:27

Alex. I just wanted to comment in on that. The media's obsession with short-termism, eyeballs, clicks, followers, that type of thing. It is driving the narrative on padel. I detest the Celebrity Association with padel in its extreme form because it's just not good for the sport overall. But it does attract attention. My view is and we've we held a competition at our club this weekend where our investors in a philanthropic way, put 10,000 pounds towards the price pool for a grassroots, non-professional competition in the uk. The biggest price fund for any competition in the UK this year. Didn't get a sniff in the media. Not even interested, wasn't reported on, wasn't commented on. That for me was the biggest thing that's happened in grassroots padel for a while. No one's bothered'cause it was in Manchester. No one's bothered because, you know, we are not in London. We are not seen as one of the sexier brands, if you like. So I think the narrative needs to change. I think the narrative needs to report on this sport.'cause this sport is special. It binds communities like nothing I've ever seen. that should be the narrative. Why have we got people in their seventies playing at our club and kids who have just picked up a racket for the first time. They're not paying a fortune to play, but they are seriously enjoying themselves, making new friends and you know, just finding something that they're passionate about. The media's narrative in the uk, and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere, is obsessed with celebrity, with short-termism and it's to the detriment of, of society, quite frankly.

Alex 43:06

And Ryan, I'm sure you've got a perspective on this as well. When most people think of US padel, the first things that pop into their head is, you know, reserve Padel and Wayne Boich, Jimmy Butler, the padel House Dumbo locations. You could even make the case that, the PPL and Hexagon with their high profile owners: part of the calculation for having these formats is that the celebrity of these franchise owners, is going to be critical to create awareness, interest, curiosity, and fandom. How do you think about the way that the sport is being packaged slash messaged in the US?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 43:42

Yeah, I've got a couple comments i'll try to focus on. One, I want to piggyback on what Mark did this past weekend. Because that's something I've been really, really trying to voice internally with our group. So when you look in the US and you have these prize money tournaments. For instance, we had a tournament this past weekend, A-U-S-P-A 250, which is a lower level tournament. We had maybe 10% of the players were division one players. And if you look at how we've started in the industry with competitions in the us, you're putting all of the prize money to the 5% of players. And that's wrong because the rest of the players are the ones that are actually taking lessons. They're the ones that are actually in clinics. They're booking your courts and filling the occupancy up for you to get a return on your investment. So we've actually, in my opinion, what Mark and the investors did there is exactly what I think we need to do. We need to make it open for everybody if we are gonna do prize money. Now again, there is those aspirational goals that you need to have that carrot up there and you get the best players for kids to come in and see and aspire to be that person. But then it goes to, well, those best players are also the influencers on the media actually creating the reputations for these clubs, how they're taken care of. And that's not the actual reality of padel and the culture. There's a lot of good happening no matter where you are: if you are a luxury brand, if you are a community brand. And I think that the media has gotten that wrong and then the operators and whatnot try to tend and lean towards that. So I loved hearing what Mark said because it's showing that globally there is that balance that we need to go to. And I think that as a culture and as a group, we're gonna make that happen. The ambassadors or celebrities. Not to ping because Hexagon Cup is a part of this podcast, but I think that the group that you have in the Hexagon Cup are the ambassadors that will actually have tentacles out to build this sport. So if you look at Kun Aguerro, who's our partner with Kru padel by Taktika: Kun during the match was actually live on his podcast and his gaming platform, which has millions of people. So he was actually streaming our padel match at the Hexagon Cup live to millions of people in South America that follow him. He just brought Hexagon Cup; he just brought padel to a bunch of gamers that might not be playing padel and sitting on a couch. What he did there is beyond us winning Hexagon Cup: he just exposed it and he did something that not many celebrities can do. But if you see what Eva's doing, Longoria, she's constantly posting about it. She's showing the beauty of the sport. I think they've done it right with that group. But to Christopher's point. There are some celebrities that we've been a part of that, hey, you're not doing anything to help grow the sport at all. And it's all very self-serving. So we have to be, as investors and as leaders, we have to choose and really partner with the right people.

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 46:48

I think it's like in my previous, entrepreneurial years, it's all about creating playbooks. And the playbooks are building day by day and year by year, and then you have something more solid, right? And we are now gathering our playbooks on separate ways. But if you look at the playbook, how to guide, inspire Media, or how to guide, inspire the councils and schools: that should be as much focus as on how to program the courts to get activity locally. So in my mind it's about again, getting more attention to it within the business plan. So if I have a pitch deck and I see a way, okay, you're gonna secure this site, you're gonna locally build a community, but in what ways are you gonna make an impact to the schools, guiding the ambassadors, like the celebrities that we bring on, great that they're there, they have accounts of millions, but are they the right ones? Are they genuinely interested in the grassroots? Are they genuinely interested to make an impact? Then they're right for us. But if they're just there because they can, or they get paid, I don't think they're doing anything good. So it's back to us again getting our playbook and focusing on these things while building great local clubs.

Alex 48:03

And I I wanted to bring in, they've been peppered in throughout this conversation, about public authorities. A lot of what we've talked about is actually what private operators are doing or what they need to be doing. Which is all, as you said, Christopher, incredibly important. That playbook is incredibly important. My question is, where are the governing bodies, the public authorities in all of this conversation? Where are the padel for all initiatives that are genuinely pounding the courts, meeting kids, where they are going into communities that will never normally encounter padel can they make courts available for free or subsidized? The LTA has rolled out, I think around 40, 50 courts, but there are a thousand padel courts. I think we just reached that milestone in the last few days. Outside of municipal tennis centers, France doesn't offer any of these kind of courts? I think nearly all US courts are either in private country clubs or boutique private facilities. Obviously Taktika is an exception. I think there's government funding in the Middle East, but it's again, primarily to private clubs or academies. So when you look at the availability of tennis courts in the uk or you look at the availability of basketball courts or baseball fields in the us like without that critical, massive, cheap or free courts and places to play, isn't the deck even more stacked? Are you concerned about how much community facilities and amenities are being put into support, whatever the private sector may or may not be doing?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 49:36

If you look in a place like California, or say New York, Florida, uk probably the same. The land is the driver, right? How much space is actually available to start to do that and to convert into parks? That's where you've seen pickleball, and pickleball in the US is a playbook that we need to all look at, because it actually did the opposite. It was grassroots and now has gone very corporate, where now you're seeing multimillion dollar facilities being built, which is its own story. You know, to me it is back to the land and how much does the land cost, what's available? And that's what we'll see. If San Diego parks and Rec were to put in 30 free courts, would they be full? Yes, they would be. And what does that do to the market? I really don't know because it's the same in tennis, you have tons and tons of opportunities for free tennis, but you also have clubs, tennis clubs, all with waiting lists as well.

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 50:36

That's the key: just because something's free doesn't mean it's gonna get used. As an example, today I've been up to Blackpool, which those of you that aren't aware of Blackpool, it's probably ranked number one and number two most deprived area in the uk. So we are working with the local council on a piece of land next to a leisure facility. It's a mixed use leisure facility. It's got five side football, it's got tennis, it's got netball, it's got a swimming pool. It's a really well run operation. They've got some land next to the leisure center that used to be a multi-activity climbing frame for kids. It can fit four padel courts and a clubhouse on there. It's currently shut down because it's dangerous and has been for a long time. The land is redundant and doing nothing and we are trying to do a deal to stimulate the investment. But doing business with the local authority takes a long, long time. They've got public procurement regulations, they've got planning restrictions, so we are in for the long run. We'll help them. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Behind the leisure center are eight tennis courts: all available on the LTAs Club Spark booking system. They are five pounds to rent or they are 60 pounds for the year if you want to use the facility. All eight were empty. Why are those tennis courts empty? Is there no one in Blackpool, the 350,000 people that live in Blackpool, is there no one that wants to play tennis? I don't know the answer to that, but what I do know is that if this sport isn't run properly and is invested in communities, programs, and activities for the society and the community in which it's built, it will also be empty. So just because something's free or cheap doesn't mean it's gonna get used all the time. And I look at the way padel clubs are 90% occupied in the UK and tennis courts are vacant in a lot of places I've been, publicly available tennis courts, are empty. And then within that then there is a root cause problem. And I go back to how does a national governing body stimulate participation across the entirety of its jurisdiction, not just in the southeast of England, the entire uk four Nation strategy. Something's not working. And if the commercial sector needs to pick up where the government sector can't, so be it. And that's what's happening with padel, that is gonna proliferate throughout the country. And I think that's a good thing. I still think there can be a partnership, there can be cooperation, there can be sharing of best practice. But the commercial sector is currently driving increased levels of physical activity, which is helping reduce childhood obesity and general ill health in the uk to the point where we are now working with local GP practices to get padel referred and prescribed as a cure for a disease. So those types of meaningful strategies are the job I see of us as the commercial padel operating community in the uk. And I think if we were more combined, if we were more cooperative with each other, I think we'd achieve even more than what we've already achieved in such a short period of time. That's a long-winded response to the topic, but I think it's really important and maybe in other countries it's the same.

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 54:00

But I think that you are on point when it comes to the importance of the content or the programming. And once we guide the councils, try to inspire them to give us some land and space. And that is not gonna do it. It's more about also having a plan on how to make sure that this is a vibrant community building. And we know that the councils on top of their agenda is to create that: all the way from getting people and kids not to enter crimes or other negative activities. It's about building a sort of a safe environment with trust and people getting to know each other in a good, healthy way. But the courts is not just gonna do it. It needs also to be activated and not just for a season. Because a lot of times with padel, it's very important in the beginning, because people don't know how to play padel. But it's even more important once you have people playing, and just as I mean with tennis, people are not playing. They're playing. But the energy is sort of declining. And I think that the programming part is the most important part. But in order to be able to program something, you need the space and the courts, whatever court that is.

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 55:21

Yeah.

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 55:22

Yeah. To add to that, to layer on the programming and what you said before, it's about people. And you have to have the leadership and people that can actually program and are going to build that community and knit everybody together. I have great success in San Diego. We have 51 racket courts and every single day I can have all of them full,

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 55:47

Wow.

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 55:48

Certain times on the weekend, they can be full for 70%. All padel courts are full; tennis courts, pickleball courts are full. Yet I have a padel facility in Northern California where I don't have the right people and they'll

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 55:59

sit empty.

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:00

And it's not because they're padel courts and nobody knows about it. It's'cause I don't have the

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:04

right person

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:05

yet, that has got that ability to weave everybody together. We're getting there. But you know, in our market, in the US we're also pioneers where I have tons of arrows in my back because you're the first to do it. So now you're a failure or now you've done it wrong. I've

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:21

actually learned how to

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:22

how

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:22

do it

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:22

right.'cause nobody else has done it. so it comes down to people. And no matter if you're the luxury brand or you're not, people will follow people.

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 56:32

For sure.

Alex 56:34

I think we're running a bit low on time, so we're gonna be wrapping up. But I think I got two questions really for each one of you. The first one is in I guess in two parts. The first one is what are the benefits of over premiumization and what are the downsides of the over premiumization? And then do you feel like maybe in one or two bullet points, what do you think padel needs to do going forward to make sure that it doesn't tumble too far down the over premiumization rabbithole? Why don't we start with Christopher?

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 57:03

I may repeat myself, but I, I would say that premium side builds awareness and has done a great impact and I'm truly impressed by many. So in that sense, it's been a really good for the whole industry. And the downside, if it continues this way, it creates exclusivity, which is something that I'm against'cause I want to open up and broaden and make sure that this gets to be a sport for everyone. That would be my shorter, repeated answer.

Alex 57:33

And what do you feel needs to change?

christoffer_1_07-22-2025_080834 57:34

Yeah. So in the sense of that, with the playbook and guideline, we are now talking about it and think about it. But I think it needs to be in the playbook every day. As much as it's important to program and to get the hours booked, it also needs always to be covering a part of the business plan and the daily activity plan, on how to make sure to make padel more inclusive and more social in that sense.

Alex 58:02

And Ryan, from your point of view, pros and cons. And then what do we need to do to avoid tumbling too far down?

ryan-redondo_1_07-22-2025_080834 58:09

So the over premiumized I'm gonna piggyback on what Christopher said. I think it's created a great awareness of the sport. It has gotten a lot of attention. Um, so we need to celebrate that. We need to ensure that, they're successful because the cons could be that if they're not successful, padel is a failure. And maybe those opportunities for the other business models won't be available. So I think that we need to ensure that everybody is successful. But again, I go back to, I think the first thing I said an hour ago is we have to find the balance. So what we need to do is we have to find the balance to work together. So if you are a premium brand, why don't you open a brand for all as well? If you have the ability to do that. Or how do we as an association work together to have the leadership to ensure that balance is gonna start there? How do we educate? I think as Mark said, to the cities, to the school districts and the leadership there. That's what I think needs to happen. Education and awareness.

Alex 59:11

And Mark.

Outro

mark-hewlett_1_07-22-2025_160834 59:13

I think as the other guys have touched on, stimulating awareness of the sport has been a big tick in the box for a lot of the premium operators. It has also driven a performance culture in the uk and I don't think our team GB would be as advanced as it is right now, if it wasn't for some of these premium facilities that they can train within. So I think there's a lot of good. It also attracts brands as well as people. So I think brands have now woken up to the fact that padel's a thing and it's something to support. If we're not careful, we alienate the vast majority of people in the uk. You know, 67 million people who live in England, not all of them can afford to play padel at the current prices, so. What will change though and old man time will ultimately have its say on this market, and as this market matures, so do supply chains, so does the mentality, so does the awareness. All of that then leads to a much more balanced ecosystem for padel, which will provide choice, availability, and increased accessibility. It is very early in the UK and the US for us to call time on padel being too premium and therefore not something we should get involved with. Over the next two to three years I think we will see the dynamics of the market shift and I think we will see this narrative of premiumization drift away from being mainstream, more towards being peripheral.

Alex 1:00:45

Thank you very much. That about wraps up our episode. I think we could have gone on for another hour, frankly. But, again, please like, share, and subscribe if the content was thought provoking. Please comment on LinkedIn if you have any recommendations around our format, topics we should devote an episode to, questions we should ask, speakers we need to bring on. We want you all, those driving the next phase of this industry's future, to tell us what you want to hear about and who from. Thank you, mark, Christopher and Ryan for joining us today. We will keep doing our best to cover all the angles of the business around padel episode after episode. Until the next one.