The ConverSAYtion
The ConverSAYtion is simply a couple of middle aged men sharing company and conversation. Psych and K take their time sorting through so much to say about society, culture, relationships, education, finance, technology, health, and more. Inspired to find engaging ways to entertain and enrich the lives of their listeners is their primary pursuit. Join them as they invest themselves in providing value to their audience. Welcome to The ConverSAYtion.
The ConverSAYtion
Building Bridges: On the Topic of Communication
Imagine sending a dinner invite to your bandmate and ending up with the whole group at the wrong time. That's right, communication mishaps can sneak up on the best of us, as we illustrate with our lighthearted tale of a culinary misunderstanding. In this episode, listeners will learn how to sidestep these common pitfalls by ensuring messages are conveyed and received with clarity.
Leadership isn't just about giving orders; it’s about fostering an environment where everyone feels valued and supported. We dive into team dynamics and the vital role of communication in transforming a group into a unified force. Through personal stories, we reveal how interdependency and collaboration are crucial for success. Leaders must employ diverse communication methods to cater to different learning styles, and by showing genuine care, they build teams that are resilient and ready to tackle challenges together.
As we navigate the complexities of communication across generations, we encourage adaptability and open dialogue. Ever wondered how to balance generational differences in your team? Our discussion offers insights into recognizing and engaging with varied communication styles. With anecdotes about guessing games at Jim’s house and the evolution of family dynamics, we highlight how cultural shifts have influenced communication.
You don't gotta do it if you don't want to. You don't gotta do it if you don't want to. You don't gotta do it if you don't want to. It's just a suggestion. That's pretty good. You know, if clapping was competitive, you'd be all over it, Thank you. Welcome back to the conversation. Hi, of course I'm Leonard Kaye and with me, of course, is Syke. Welcome back to the conversation. Hi, of course I'm Leonard Kaye and with me, of course, is Syke. New topic today we're going to start a series talking about communication, conflict resolution, things of you know. We all work in an environment, A lot of us work period and we all complain about our surroundings, and it all boils down to communication.
Speaker 1:Most of what, most of what you think in your head that doesn't come out to other people, they aren't aware of people can't read your mind no, they can't read your mind, and so the best part is, uh, because we're talking about communication, I purposely didn't tell psych a whole lot about what we're going to discuss today. No real direction, so we can totally start off with the fact that there was no communication about this episode, correct? Before we do. However, after this episode today, we're going over to the bass player's house to hang out.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward and so, while I was waiting for you to get your shirt on, I asked jim what time he was expecting us and he said uh, you're supposed to be here right now. What? Uh? And I was like jesus, already, don't start drinking too hard without us, because we're on psych time and we're just starting a podcast. And he says and this is his communication to you he says I told psych be here at one.
Speaker 2:Does that sound familiar? One o'clock? I think I interpreted that as he would be ready to receive guests after 1, but not affirm show up at 1. Okay, I thought dinner was it. I mean, oh, my phone's over there, that's all right.
Speaker 1:As a response, he sent me this meme. That's good, so Okay, we need to get our communications underway.
Speaker 2:So you didn't. What did he tell you?
Speaker 1:What. He didn't tell me anything. Oh, apparently I was expected to be the conduit that I suppose disseminated all the pertinent information. Like like I'm, some like I'm some kind of some kind of device, need to wind up and bring along or something.
Speaker 2:Uh, we're probably ruining his his meal plans, or he?
Speaker 1:quote you bitches missing the fresh out of the oven homemade ciabatta. Oh dang, with a yellow guy shrugging his shoulders emoji.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:So when we talk about communication, the first thing is communication. It takes two people to communicate right, or more Two or more or more, at least two. But let's talk about it in forms of two people, and it's not just telling somebody something, it's being told something that is a big part of that two-person process.
Speaker 2:Where was his no? His message was I'll pull it up Because I asked him what I could bring. I asked him how could I contribute?
Speaker 1:And so I'm just going to tell him.
Speaker 2:We can go right after this.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We'll put you on.
Speaker 1:I'm actually talking about communication this week, so thank you for the icebreaker Whoops.
Speaker 2:What had happened? Yeah, what had happened, yeah, what happened was oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1:Oh, and you know part, so part of it's my fault because I hadn't asked these questions until 10 minutes ago and I'd been so distant over the last couple of weeks because of my trip to trip to arizona and because I got sick before that and all the stuff that's going on at work.
Speaker 2:I just, you know, I just haven't been on a lot of soap with people, okay so, yeah, so my mess. Well, at the beginning, his first message, in fairness, was you're invited to basically supper with with Kay and I Saturday, the 25th.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I was like, okay, I let it go for a while. He didn't tell me who was hosting, so I responded I was like I'm assuming you're hosting or are we meeting at another venue? He was like, oh yeah, Sorry, I'm hosting and cooking. I was like, okay, cool, what time will you be ready to receive guests? And he said Kay's coming over. After he said k said he was coming over after you are done recording which is true.
Speaker 1:I'm so far, I'm not in the wrong yet okay.
Speaker 2:And he said let's say one ish. Did you tell him what time we're usually done recording? No, I didn't. Oh okay, so there, all right. Um so, but I the way I interpreted, what time will you be ready to receive guests is what's the earliest time that we could come over. But he said dinner's at five. So yeah, we messed up all the way.
Speaker 1:So now, how could we have avoided this situation and been over there drinking sacatinis right now instead of drinking this fine tequila?
Speaker 2:There's nothing wrong with this, there's nothing wrong at all, I think, if we were all in the same group text. I think that's usually what happens, but he started a group text. But no, the messages that I received are direct. The ones I just read were just to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what does the group text say about us? Does it have anything on there now?
Speaker 2:No, he just sent it to me. He communicated with you and he communicated with me, and neither of us knew what we were communicating to him.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:We're splintered.
Speaker 1:In the group text. There's nothing about timeframes. There's nothing about timeframes. So one of the things about communicating with others is you're immediately building a rift. If you start pointing fingers and placing blame, no one is to blame here, especially not me. You also can put a wedge between yourself and other people if you're the one not claiming any responsibility too, exactly so. So if I looked at the, if we went back through and we looked at what he saw from his side, yeah I would say it was just a breakdown in communication.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course we, we texted each other. I think that, honestly, text messaging has caused a huge divide in our ability to communicate with one another. If we're sitting right here and I'm telling you hey, 1 o'clock Jim's house, pretty hard for you to not hear me.
Speaker 2:And I shouldn't have been so fanciful with my. What time will you be ready to receive guests?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, that would have, definitely if you're the kind of person who likes to text like it's the 15th century. He, you know, he, he may, he may not, he may have just glazed over your text because he's just like this fucking guy maybe, yeah, maybe, he's gonna have to watch this episode.
Speaker 2:He's especially if you're gonna spend the next 45 minutes talking about his ass.
Speaker 1:This fucking guy, maybe, maybe he's going to have to watch this episode, especially if you're going to spend the next 45 minutes talking about his ass.
Speaker 1:Jen, thank you Can't wait to have that. First Soccatini, I could use a pick-me-up, yeah. So back to this though. When you need somebody to hear you, when it's absolutely because this is why we're having a little kickback later Not a big deal, so we missed that. On the fresh oven-baked ciabatta, that's okay. If you need somebody to hear you understand, comprehend, if you need somebody to hear you understand, comprehend and act upon what you're telling them, how?
Speaker 2:do you do that? Oh, if I absolutely need results, well, I would you text them? No, no, I I prefer, I prefer face-to-face interactions. Whenever possible, I prefer to read someone's non-verbal communication and use that to inform my communication as I proceed with that interaction. If it's if it's something I absolutely need.
Speaker 2:The first thing I need is for them to know how much I need this thing. They have to have the same understanding of the problem I'm trying to solve as I have, or close enough to it, so that there's a sense of urgency there. Oh, syke needs this. Oh, when does he need it? He needs it now. Oh, did he need it yesterday? Did he need it two weeks ago? Is he going to need it in three days? Like, and what is this? What problems is going to solve and how much is this going to help?
Speaker 2:Most, most people want to help if they can and they're less likely to be as helpful as you want them to be if they don't have a full understanding of the problem that you are attempting to solve, your endeavors. They would like to be involved to the level which they can take some ownership and maybe even be helped or rewarded in some way project coming to fruition or this task being met and completed. And then if they especially if they can accept some accolades or be affirmed, or they get some kudos or a pat on the back for oh, yeah, I was overseeing this and yeah, I was working closely with Cycle on this project and, yeah, we succeeded, right Take credit.
Speaker 1:I always tell people I'm brilliant Not going to lie, I'm, I'm kind of a big deal, accept it, accept it. So I always tell people you know, when you're collaborating and you're coming up with stuff and you're and you and ideas are flying everywhere. If I come up with something or you come up with something, usually it's me. But if something brilliant comes out of someone's mouth and then supervisors are walking around, it was great in groceries. I used to say this all the time hey, if I got an idea and I'm not around the right people to take credit for that idea, and then you find yourself use that idea, take credit for that. You know people love being a part of that collaborative solution and they love the accolades. They're like oh, he just gave me permission to pat myself on the back.
Speaker 2:And it's going to encourage them to continue to work with you and it's going to encourage them to continue to work with you. That relationship is going to be fostered. It's going to be almost transactional I help them, they help me, I get rewarded, they get rewarded and the stress and all the stuff that gets in the way of daily business kind of subsides a little bit. It's not as much, it's not as great, because there's that understanding you're working together.
Speaker 1:I just, I just took a training at work and it was a short. It was a short like seminar thing, it was, and it was, and it was centered around how to turn me into we. That's what I'm. That's the problem I'm having right now at work is is all of the guys are only thinking about me, and by me I mean, rhetorically, them themselves and I think that if I can properly communicate that, we all win as a team. Nobody, no single person, has ever succeeded in what we do by themselves no one. But if something goes wrong, they're like well, I didn't do that, I did this over here. So there's the other side of it. Yes, we all get the accolades If we join together and we, we this thing. What happens?
Speaker 2:on the other side of the coin, things.
Speaker 1:Things go totally south. It's a shit show. And then you start where we started talking about with our text, our text string. Now it's the blame game. How do we stop that? How? How do we? How do we work together to fight through the adversity? And how do we, how do we communicate with one another in such a way that that we can get through it together? We don't start to splinter and separate when things go awry. Asking for a friend.
Speaker 2:I prefer to give everybody the benefit of the doubt as much as humanly possible and I like to try to impart that same philosophy and that same mindset to my staff. Many times I'll have a staff member approach me with a complaint or a problem or some sort of grievance. Usually that complaint or grievance is a result of someone else that they feel has wronged them or wronged us or is not acting in good faith, and they'll tell their story and I'll. I'll listen, I'll hear them out and I won't interrupt. I'll just take it all in like okay, and then I'll ask permission to share with, to share thoughts or suggestions with them. I will ask them, if they would like me to, to impart my personal take on it, my personal opinion.
Speaker 1:That's better than what I do. I like the permission thing. I just. I just say, do I need to get involved?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I do ask them that later too, because sometimes, sometimes the way the interactions will go, they share everything with me and and I listen, and then and then I asked them if they would care to have me share my thoughts and then usually I try to give them another perspective that could explain their problem in a way that doesn't make the other party or parties out to be a villain or some sort of person that's trying to dissolve everything. They're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1:So I always try to. So I do something similar. I always try to find. I find that people lack internal perspective. You know, they complain about somebody over here. They don't realize that they do the same thing and that somebody, that person probably has the same complaint about them. So what I usually do, same thing I. Somebody, that person probably has the same complaint about them. So what I usually do, same thing I. They come to me, I listen to all the complaints and then, instead of offering and instead of offering advice about the resolution situation, I give them an example of how they're at fault for the same thing. And I get a lot of, I get a lot of positive results about that because like, like so.
Speaker 1:For example, we had, we had a had a couple of guys come to me just recently. They were complaining that one of one of the, the young, the younger techs wasn't understanding something, wasn't getting it, it's like. And their and their argument was you know, he's been with us for two years. You know he should know this stuff by now. Yeah, but he still has this problem with this one thing. And I pointed at each of them and I said hey, how long have I been trying to teach you this. You've been here longer than he has. Have you got? Have you got this? Yet you don't.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, you don't and you that kind of stuff yeah and then you see, you see, you see two, two, uh, two, it's like a fork in the road. Either they get defensive or they're like, oh fuck, he's right.
Speaker 2:Are you perfect? Are is any one of us perfect? Is there room for?
Speaker 1:improvement.
Speaker 1:I and I tell them, and at that point I tell them all the same thing If you're expecting, if you're expected to show him something and he doesn't get it, I never blame the student, I always blame the teacher.
Speaker 1:And now here's how it, here's how it ties into communication, because now you've got to, I tell him, I challenge you to find a different way to explain it to this guy, to where he will get it. I know it's not always gonna be successful, because I just gave examples with you two and me, and I'm good, we just we just established that I'm kind of genius and if I can't teach you something I'm still trying to figure out, but we're not, we're all, we're not perfect, no, and so I think that that that it helps build a team dynamic by by explaining to people that we are all fallible. You know what. We can't do this alone. We need each other. So, yes, maybe he'll never get this, you're never going to get this thing. I'm trying to teach you, but you got me, I'm here for you. I'm here for you, we are in this together.
Speaker 2:It's that interdependency yes.
Speaker 1:We're not on an island.
Speaker 2:No one's alone, and if we can understand that I need you for this, you need me for this. Let's do each of those jobs to the best of our ability, in good faith, and try to coexist yeah, and and communicate your shortcomings like they're.
Speaker 1:Like we just talked before before we started filming how I'm at work right now. I lost my one of my experts and I'm having to learn what he was the expert at, whereas before I didn't know those things. I mean, I was passable, but I wasn't brilliant like he was.
Speaker 2:Oh, but you kind of have a big deal. You should have no problem.
Speaker 1:It's like drinking a glass of deal. You should have no problem. It's like drinking a glass of water, I'm just doing it. But you know, at the time I knew this and then I would say, hey, come here, help me with this please. We are a team. I didn't, I can't do this. You, you, you come here. But the thing is, when we win, everyone's, everyone's patting each other back high five. You know, great job, you did that and you did that and everything was great. But once one thing goes wrong, everyone goes to their corners and like this, like this point, point, point, point. So how do I get, how do I get these guys to not do that?
Speaker 1:I think that the biggest problem is it's a leadership thing, and leadership doesn't have to be one person right. One person doesn't have to be everybody can have leadership skills and for me, leadership is being able to take, you know, step forward and stick up for your team. It's not, oh, he did that wrong. It's hey, hey, guys, we messed this up, we need to fix it. When the customer comes to complain, I'm going to tell them hey, we made a mistake. I'm not going to say, oh, you know, johnny over here blew it, we're going to get it fixed, but first we've got to figure out what he did wrong. If I can get the guys to understand that we are unbreakable together, how do I communicate that? Because I've been trying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, such a good movie, bruce Willis.
Speaker 1:Well, I do feel like I'm drowning at times.
Speaker 2:So it starts with building a relationship and rapport. You have to have a connection with the individual that it's not necessarily based in what you're doing, although that most people think that connection should be more than enough and should be enough to make sure everybody stays together. But in most cases it's insufficient. It needs to be that. And something else I know in education. It's kind of a cliche now Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you know, until they know how much you care. Right, they? They need to know that they're you, care about them and they are cared for, and it's pen worthy. It's pen worthy. The pen is out. Where's my pen?
Speaker 1:I don't even know. Don't worry about it. All right, I'll dictate. You dictate so yes, no, nobody.
Speaker 2:Nobody's willing to work with people who or at least not for very long or not for very well, until they know that they are cared for. So, for example, some of the things I do for my staff if somebody comes in an administrator, a program manager and they come in and they have a complaint about what's going on in my classroom and they just offer the complaint and then they leave out. If there's mitigating circumstances, if there's something that the administrator or the program manager lacked in their 30 second observation when they arrived at the complaint, that they felt was enough to communicate to everybody and just kind of bring the morale down because what? You just stepped in our lives for 30 seconds. You don't know the students, you don't know the staff, you don't know any of their names. You saw this much about what's going on in a much larger picture and environment and you cared very little. But some I mean what was their motivation to offer this complaint? I'll respond and I will share my response with all of my staff, my staff. If there's something that my staff are being targeted for, if there's a complaint that's going directly to them, and if I think that it was unwarranted, or, at the very least, if I think the responsibility doesn't like a hundred percent on them, then I'll I'll send off an email to whoever it it concerns and I will share that email.
Speaker 2:My staff have read my emails and responses and email threads to administrators, to program managers, to HR. In their defense, I go okay, no, you're right, that's wrong. All right here. This is what I'm about to send them. Should I make any changes, I'll ask them for input. What would you say if you were here? Is there anything you want to delete? Did I say too much? Did I? Was I too hard? What are your thoughts? I'm like, no, I think that's good. I was like, okay, send, and I make them a part of the process so that they can understand oh, this guy, he cares enough to go to bat for us.
Speaker 1:So I do the same thing. In fact, I've been commended for caring for my team. Like I, build individual, build individual situations to give them opportunities to grow, be better, do more, make more money all that stuff. My division has adopted a lot of the stuff that I've done over the last few years. However, I still have the same problems. I'm not getting these people to be a part of their own solution and to be a part of the team solution. They're still very much in their corners and I would probably submit that you have a similar problem.
Speaker 2:Even though you are there for your employees and you're very much making them a part of their own solution, they still push back on the collective team dynamics and they're very selfish. Yes, you have to present it in such a way where the reward outweighs or I would say far outweighs the cost.
Speaker 1:So you have to offer some kind of a carrot. And I see the same thing because I find that, like children which I don't have, but I imagine this is how it is I give them things and if it doesn't benefit them or they don't see the benefit, they sometimes choose to ignore the suggestions. You know, I don't do anything, I don't order anybody around. Everything's a suggestion. The thing I learned in the supermarket they would always tell you hey, when your boss suggests something, that's an order. That's how I always, I've always done it that way.
Speaker 1:But I find that in this group that if it's something for the team and it doesn't benefit them like the weight of the benefit isn't on them, they'll just go back to their office and not really engage. And from the stories that you tell, we have situations I think we have a similar situation where I do go to bat for these guys and I do get them involved in their own solution and I do ask them how they would like me to handle it, but at the end of the day I I'm I'm not succeeding at building this team, this team dynamic, and this whole, this whole, must have a carrot kind of mentality. Is that a follower versus leadership kind of mindset, like if you don't have leadership qualities, do you always do you always kind of revert to that kind of selfish, me, me follower mentality? Do you do you see leadership in your staff at work?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, not everyone, yes, and some. Some would like to be, but don't necessarily have the, the skills that are going to drive us to success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get those, those people who just think oh, I could do better than him.
Speaker 2:Yes, I had a staff member like that last school year who has since moved on to bigger and better and greater, and rightfully so. They were, on paper, overqualified for the position that they accepted and I think whenever you have a person, especially a young person, which this person was, that was overqualified and knew it and was capable of doing more than people that had been in their position longer, they allowed some bitterness and some resentment sink, sink in and hey, why don't I just do this? Or why don't you put me in charge? Or they did that and it went wrong and that would not have happened with me. And they're just. It was they were allowing their team members to sink in order for them to be able to have the opportunity to step in and save them. But if we had just worked together, nobody had to sink, we wouldn't have to save anybody. We would have just tackled that thing, whatever it may have been together. And we would have just tackled that thing, whatever it may have been together, and we would have all won. But and there's, I will say, there's a time and place for that, there's a there's a time and place for let it all crumble, let it all fall down, let the building go up in smoke and then let's rebuild afterwards. There's there's a time and place for that, but in most cases, if you want to continue to succeed and you want to continue to have this daily grind continue on without any speed, bumps or hiccups, you're going to have to work together With communication with people.
Speaker 2:I try to recognize and be conscious of what form of communication are the you know, the individuals using. Are they more competitive with their communication or are they more cooperative? Are they want? Do they just want, to say what they want to say? Are they not? Do they have something to say? Before I finish speaking, are they? And if so, they're probably not listening fully. They just want to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Are they trying to use and consume the majority of the time that we have allocated to have this conversation? That would be more competitive, or are they actually listening? Do they have responses that are tied into what I said previously? Are they attempting to come up with solutions for shared problems?
Speaker 2:So in that particular instance, I know, okay, they want to cooperate. This communication is cooperative. We're trying to collaborate together for a greater end, but if they're just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and venting, venting, venting, venting, venting, and they're not willing to offer solutions. They're not asking for solutions. That happened once and one of the greatest staff members I ever had. They are no longer in the class, but they decided to share a rather personal story it wasn't pertaining to work and they offered me all of this information and then just let it sit there. And so I let it sit there too, and it was kind of this long awkward pause and and then I asked them do you have a question? And and they shared. I wanted to. I wanted to share this information with you because you seem like such a reasonable and sensible person that's able to navigate through problems such as these, and I was looking forward to your response.
Speaker 1:I want you to comment on it as a whole.
Speaker 2:Yes, the thing was I didn't assume that that's what they wanted. And then I asked them. I was like, oh, thank you, I take that as a compliment. I'm honored that you would share something so personal. And, yes, I have a few thoughts on what you just shared and this is what I think you should do. And, as it turned out, they were unwilling to do everything that I presented and I offered them good advice, but ultimately they weren't prepared emotionally to separate themselves from from the situation and they went on as they. They chose to, and I was like I'm not going to take any of this personally us they, they chose to, and I was like I, I'm not going to take any of this personally. You can do, you can live your life. Just because you don't do what I think is the most rational course of action has no effect on our relationship.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, obviously, obviously I have. I have specific and recent examples of similar which we won't necessarily get into. So I have the same kind of problem. I find that people complain because they want you to solve their problem. They don't see our problem and so trying to communicate that it's not a you thing, it's an us thing is one of the biggest challenges I think in in communicating with a team.
Speaker 1:Because I disagree, you know, I personally have felt like I'm just gonna let the salt burn down and then I'll, and then we'll just build from the ashes. But I, if we're in a team, we have to to ride or die and we've got to all group together and fix it. We just need to be a part of the solution. I'm not willing to let people fail, but I've got guys on my team who have suggested just that. The complaint is they're not doing what I want them to do. I think we should just let them go and fail and then they'll still see how wrong they are and that's got to be one of the worst mentalities. For for building a team and communicating the needs of that team, it depends on the situation. Oh.
Speaker 2:I think that it depends on the situation and from my perspective. I think that it depends on the situation and from my perspective. So, for example, if, if, if you and I've used this before management supervisors they come in let's do this, and I know it's going to fail, I know it, I know it, they don't know the all of the intricacies of what we do. And so they come in, they make a suggestion and I go okay, we're going to do it that way. And and then about halfway through, when it's starting to tank, I'll offer my comments and suggestions and attempt to help and I will allow them to change their course, but I leave the decision to them. I need them to come to their own realization about the team that they are trying to influence. They're trying to be the rudder and steer this boat that they're not even in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, let me change my answer slightly based on what you've said. I do the same thing, but I don't see supervision as a part of the team. Yeah, see, let me change my answer slightly based on what you've said. I do the same thing, but I don't see supervision as a part of the team.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But they are no so. So in my where I'm at right now, everybody above my immediate supervisor has no idea what we do. Okay, like they're afraid of us, but they still step in and make suggestions. That would be great for maybe this over here. Maybe they just read it in a magazine.
Speaker 2:But even with the members of your team, I asked myself this question is what I'm about to do going to hurt or help? And I asked myself that in two phases. Is it going to help or hurt in the short term, and then is it going to help or hurt long term? Because it might end up hurting short term but help long term. So then, if I have to, I have to weigh all of those pros and cons out. Person. That's a little substandard in their performance and maybe they're a little arrogant, and they they're they. They want to ride solo and do everything on their own and they don't want to be a part of the team. I might allow them the freedom and the liberty and the time and the space and the opportunity to do what they think they want to do, in hopes that they come to their. They come to their own conclusion that oh okay, this didn't work, this didn't. Nobody else was involved, this was me, I did this, so they take ownership for it completely. Does that happen?
Speaker 1:Do they take ownership?
Speaker 2:Some people do, but you have to ask yourself is that person capable of taking ownership for something that they do a hundred percent on their own? And if they're not, then I don't take that pass with those people. I'm pretty good about identifying the people that are capable of changing, the people that are capable of self-reflection and taking some time for introspection, and if they're not, then okay, no, no, no, I need to. I need to be a little bit more influential in this process, so nice segue.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I think that that brings up a really good point. First, communicating to us via text message, this is the spread that Jim has out and is waiting for us. We've got cheese and looks like prosciutto salami. Obviously there's a drink there.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Conversation. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just not a very long one, but we'll get to it next week. Yeah, it's just not a very long one, but we'll get to it next week. So now you bring up a good point about identifying who has the capacity for growth. However, I believe that everybody has the capacity for growth in their own way. You have to identify their aptitudes for growth, and the point I want to make, and what I want to discuss here, is that how do we decide where this person's learning aptitudes lie and how do we engage them based on that knowledge? Now I'll give you an example I just watched. This was another seminar. It's all I've been doing lately is trying to teach myself to deal with difficult teams.
Speaker 2:You've been using that master class.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Watch the ex-FBI hostage negotiator.
Speaker 1:I've been so I've never read nonfiction books in my life and now you gave me a book. I read two books before that. I'm trying to figure. It's almost like a conundrum, because I've been managing for 25 years.
Speaker 2:I've never had problems like this I own more nonfiction than I own fiction books.
Speaker 1:It sounds awful, but so the seminar, this webinar that I watched recently, talked about and this is one of the problems I have that different generations require different forms of interaction in order to get through to them properly. So may I ask you this you just mentioned that you had a young staffer and you had an older staffer. Do you talk to everybody the same way or do you change your communication style based on their age group?
Speaker 2:Great question, great question I. It has nothing to do with age group for me. I don't, I don't, I don't think about it like that at all. It's the individual, whoever. Whoever the individual is Now, let's say you have, let's say I'm invited to come and speak to your team and I don't have any background information and I have to get up there and present. Yes, I'll quickly assess who's in front of me and I'll I'll make some assumptions based on previous experiences, based on the people and the age and the you know whoever's in front of me. I'm going to receive that information visually and then I'm going to go into my mind and go into my mind palace and pull out various things that can help.
Speaker 1:That was what this webinar was trying to get out. So you don't always have the luxury of learning everybody as an individual certain ways to communicate with them better, based on their generations. Every generation is raised with different structures and ideals, and if you understand those things, then you can get through to people better. So I'm trying to explain this. I got older guys and I got younger guys on my team. I'm trying to explain this separately to them. Like, yeah, your complaint is the same as his complaint, but the answers are different. You have to. You have to understand who he is as a generational construct and he has to do the same for you so with people I've interacted with previous, especially with conflict resolution.
Speaker 2:If I feel that there, if I feel, if I feel and or think that there's been a breakdown somewhere, that what we have achieved up until that point has not worked, it's been insufficient as far as the communication is concerned, mostly I'll just ask them what is your preferred method of communication? We were communicating like this. Was there anything wrong with this? Did you have any objections? Would you? Would you prefer communication to be received in another way? How do you prefer to deliver your communication? And I'll just ask them so I know, moving forward, okay, all right, and I will try to use their preferred method of communication to be delivered to them in the way that they would like for it to be delivered, and I'll try to be a little bit more accepting of the way that they prefer to deliver their communication. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:I've spent so much time trying to figure out how to talk to people. I've never really considered ask them what, how, how, how should I talk to people? I've never really considered to ask them what, how would how? How should I talk to you? I've never really considered that. But now let me ask you this, because I do find that people don't know what's best for them, and that includes education. So when you tell these people things, how often do you find that their preferred method of communication is not the best way for them?
Speaker 2:I, you should know fairly quickly after you test it. And then, just like driving, you have to reassess the road conditions and who's in front of you and then, hey, you just check in. You have to communicate about the communication, so I'll check in with them. Was this okay? Did you take offense? Have to communicate about the communication? So I'll check in with them. Was this okay, did did you take offense?
Speaker 2:I, you know, I meant this in the the best tone and in the most respectful way possible. Was did you receive it that way? Sometimes, especially in text, I really have to hammer it home that, hey, I want you to accept this in the best way possible. I'm not angry, frustrated or upset. Please accept this correspondence with all of the respect'm not angry, frustrated or upset. Please accept this correspondence with all of the respect I have for you. You are amazing. I'll tell them why, and I have a question about this, this and this. Can you help me understand this more? Um, I look forward to your response. Or maybe we can have an opportunity to meet in person, whichever you prefer, you know, put put the ball in their court. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:I like the idea of requiring feedback. I always tell these guys hey, if there's something wrong, guys just come see me, my door's always open. That kind of stuff Never happens. But you know, sitting them down and being like, hey, how is this going?
Speaker 2:I like that. So in education, a big one, especially at the end of a meeting, right, If everybody knows we're scheduled to meet for an hour and we're going to go through things that they don't really want to go through but maybe they need, and maybe some don't understand, sometimes simply rephrasing things towards the end or maybe even checking in earlier.
Speaker 2:Right, Nobody wants to be the one that asks questions three minutes before we're supposed to dismiss or I disagree with that, but please finish the story, or maybe, or maybe, uh, people, especially if they were given a carrot hey, if we get through this and we skip our break, I'll let let you out early. So you're going to let us out early. We're supposed to go an hour. Now it's 45 minutes and now you're asking are there any questions? Rephrasing that to what questions do you have? Assume people have the questions. Assume people don't understand everything, invite them to ask the things that you already recognize and understand. There are people in your audience that don't know everything. So what questions do you have? Instead of uh, do you have any questions? Because people don't typically respond well to that question it's funny.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of. Okay, this is that. That was all I wanted to. Now's the time for your questions concerns comments. That's kind of what I do. I told Jim that we're going to be over in about an hour. That would give us a good amount of time to tie this down. He's super excited. He's so excited. He's giving me little peace sign, emojis and stuff. I haven't seen that from him ever. So he's he's happy. He's happy to have us. Um, he did. He did send me one last, one last picture, and it was. It was with the question what's in the crock pot? I guessed beef brisket. He said, close, something to go with the bread. It has to be ciabatta. I'm starting to get excited too.
Speaker 2:French dips Could be Like a prime rib, just kind of just like.
Speaker 1:So you've seen all the things that we've seen. If you're watching this on YouTube, if you want to guess, we'll tell you next time what we had at Jim's house. Yeah, pretty excited about that. So, talking about how you talk to people, or how a person talks to another person, and we discussed different approaches for different people based on prior knowledge of that person, asking them outright how they wanted to communicate with, asking you know, um, using using generational context to to help with the way that you discuss things with people. Um, and I'll just, I'll just say it you, the younger generations today, are far more sensitive than the older generations. The resiliency to mean-spiritedness isn't there. Not that that's a bad thing, but that's something to be aware of. Talking specifically about, my old guys talk to the young kids like they're all in their 50s and the response is very negative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of that has to do with our culture and societal norms. Previous generations had larger families. They had more children and they had children early. So they had children earlier in life. They had more children and larger families. Nowadays we're having less children. People are having children later in life, so smaller families having children later in life with the knowledge that they're not going to have any more children. So there's a scarcity of kids and when there's a scarcity, people value those things more. So people value their children more. Now that I know it sounds terrible and I'll explain they've, but they do. They value their children more now and, as a result, they kind of coddle them and they bubble wrap them and they treat them with kid gloves. As opposed to previous generations, they had eight kids, right, right, and hey, something happens to them. I'll just make another one. I got time yeah, and uh, this is terrible.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, see you next week. You know we're more than all desensitized to that. I know there's comedians that have talked about that. That same premise where you have you have more of them. And you just know that. It's not that the previous generations love their children any less. It's just because they had more of them, because they had them younger, because they were parents younger and because when they had their kids they knew that they still could have more and there was a possibility there. They treated them differently as a result, I think.
Speaker 1:I think that the psychology of that is something you need to reevaluate. I do. I do agree that having more children makes it harder to give them the specific attention and to coddle them. I totally agree with that like I've told they don't.
Speaker 2:They don't get the enough time, as much time because you have to split your time.
Speaker 1:And of course, the whole hard work generation stuff. Nowadays most people can learn something with ChatGPT, get on the computer and then have to work hard day in their life. But you were teaching this horde that you had three generations ago that they had to toughen up because life was going to be hard. So, yes, those things kind of thing and of course. And life was harder back then.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, don't screw this up, because if you do, you can lop off your hand. Yeah, or don't get under there, because if you screw that up, you might not come out. Right Now we have technology and we have all sorts of things, and the world is a much softer place with airbags everywhere. Yes, yes, a much softer place with airbags everywhere?
Speaker 1:Yes, and so that tied also to the way that you talk with people. We talked about how I hate text messaging professionally. I've encountered places now where a business is like, just text me, but no, I'm not texting you, professional stuff I. And I tell my guys don't text me, don't text me, call me. I prefer if you come see me, but call me don't. You know I mean, and you see how how the, the written word causes so many problems. I mean mean with Jim. You saw how your little fanciful text contributed to us not being over there drinking Saccatini's right now. But also I read a study a couple years ago where it was one of my management training things and it talked about how, whatever you put in an email, most people on the other end will take the positivity of that email and lower it two notches.
Speaker 2:I've heard it put the person that's going to receive the email in whatever mood they are in at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that sounds good too, so, but so now we're to talking with, talking directly with people, and the language that you use also has to change for a specific person. So if you transferred your text to Jim into the workspace, you're not walking up to somebody and being like verily, I expecteth you to engage in this particular Of course, of course, of course, right.
Speaker 2:Yes. So now text in the business world or in the professional world should be basically just the facts and the details. What time do you want this job completed? It should be clear and concise and ask a question that really is only going to have one answer.
Speaker 1:But the counter argument to that is you know, I got two younger guys on my team and those guys want to text me everything. That's their communication medium. They don't necessarily understand that I am at the very tail end of Gen X and the guys just older than me on the team they can barely check their email, let alone, let alone hold a conversation with their thumbs. So so I try to bring these guys into the middle by having them make phone calls, but they rail against it.
Speaker 2:Do you, do you have to offer text as a means of communication?
Speaker 1:Well, we have. We use Cisco WebEx as an internal communications application.
Speaker 2:Okay, so they'll send you a message through it.
Speaker 1:And so it's multimedia. Right, you text call video, teleconferencing, share point, all the whole bit. But they want to text me full conversations professionally, like hey, hey, I'm at this job site and we're encountering this problem. Uh, what do you think we should do? Whereas for my generation it's like why don't you just call me, put me on speaker on the table, and then we talk it out. But now you've got. You got to hope that I even heard the ding.
Speaker 2:You know what. The younger generation are much more comfortable being filmed, being in front of cameras, being online, having themselves all over the socials. I think possibly a solution which I don't know how many people would be willing to use taking out their phone and just video, taking a video of themselves asking the question they want to ask. Then at least you can read their face, you can hear the tone of voice. They could just send it to you that's no different than text messaging?
Speaker 2:well, yes, because no. Yes, there is a difference, because many of my text messages, right, start the mic, it's voice to text and then it sends off. Yeah, I see you do that. I'm just adding the component of the video and it takes the video. Now you can read my nonverbal communication, you can read all those cues, you can hear my tone of voice, you can see my facial expressions and then you can even reply with your own video in your own time.
Speaker 1:It goes right back to them and hopefully my team literally installs video teleconferencing for a living. Why can't they just call me with the video?
Speaker 2:Because it might not be as convenient for the person receiving it. That's what text messaging does, right? You send a text message when it's convenient for you in hopes that they will read it and respond when it's convenient for them. You have to have both parties and a convenient time for each to make that happen.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so and so what is convenient for them is fine in their own time, but in a professional environment it's about. It's about working as a team to complete the job. So so I do accept that they're more comfortable texting and I will engage in that because I am trying to meet them halfway. But when they come back to the office and we have we have morning meetings every morning I will mention I'll be like hey guys, we got this done and it took about an hour. If you had just called me, it would have taken 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:If you have any sort of sway over how your interview process goes or what's included in that process, maybe these are questions that you should introduce or consider introducing about communication and how they prefer to communicate what's on the table and off the table to them, what they're prone to, what they take exception to.
Speaker 1:That's an excellent idea, but of course I work for a government subcontract agency and, much like yourself, I can't deviate too far from my interview question formats.
Speaker 2:So maybe you could contract out your interviewers.
Speaker 1:No, they used to do that before they allowed the people on the actual team help with the interviews and we had some really bad hires. So just for that reason I would not recommend that.
Speaker 2:Whenever Leonard Kaye needs, I will be right there. I will hire him the best team and he won't have any of these problems ever again.
Speaker 1:I thought I was hiring the best team.
Speaker 2:And now I guess you're not such a big shot.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that offline. Yes, I'm not going to get into that right here, so thank you for joining us. Next time I'd really like to get into conflict resolution. I think that's a really good way to go because that's a big part of communication. I've read some really cool things recently that I'll bring up, but thank you for joining us. You know the drill. What questions do you have? Put them in the comments below please like comment, subscribe.
Speaker 2:yeah, and if you'll excuse us comments below Please like comment, subscribe. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Share and, if you'll excuse us, we've got other places to be Cheers. See you guys next time. Oh, jim Jim, yeah, let's go, I'm coming, jim Jim yeah, let's go, I'm coming.
