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The Canberra Business Podcast
A podcast about all things Canberra Business.
The Canberra Business Podcast
Cultivating Business Success and Community in Canberra
We uncover the remarkable journey of Archie Tsiromokos, a distinguished lawyer in Canberra and the outgoing Chair of the Canberra Business Chamber. Archie shares his path from being a fresh law graduate to becoming a partner at MV Law by 27. Through his story, we explore the seismic shifts in the legal profession over the last four decades, driven by technological advancements and increasing diversity. Archie draws fascinating parallels between managing a legal practice and other businesses, underscoring the importance of strategic alignment and cultivating robust client relationships. Discover how MV Law has evolved by integrating its identity and personnel with its strategic vision.
In this engaging discussion, Archie sheds light on Canberra's unique character, often likened to a "big country town," where community reputation and support are pivotal for business success. We confront the misconception of businesses as impersonal entities, emphasizing the human side of business and the challenges small business owners face. Get insights into the crucial role that government support plays in helping local businesses thrive, benefiting the community at large. Archie reflects on his time with the business chamber, showcasing how active engagement and advocacy can lead to significant positive change, making Canberra a vibrant hub for both businesses and individuals.
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast brought to you by the Canberra Business Chamber with the support of the University of Canberra. I'm Greg Harford from the Chamber and I'm here today with well-known Canberra business person, archie Siromokos, the Chairman of MV Law and the outgoing Chair of the Business Chamber. So, archie, welcome to the podcast. Good morning, greg. It's good to see you Now. Archie, you're well known around town. You've been on the board of the Business Chamber for many years and you've been Chair for the last six. We'll come on and talk about the Chamber a little bit later, but first, in your day job, you're a prominent lawyer. What's your background and how did you get started?
Speaker 2:It's one of those things where I didn't plan to be a lawyer, but I did okay at school, got the marks and, coming from an ethnic background, my parents really wanted me to go to university.
Speaker 2:I was the first one in my family to go to uni and I was able to get into law and I found that when I was studying I started to enjoy it and then at the end of it I went I may as well give this a go and see how it is. I started with a firm which was back then known as Vandenberg Reed Papers and MacDonald, which is the predecessor firm to the firm that I am currently with.
Speaker 1:And were your parents proud of you.
Speaker 2:Very. My father used to introduce me always to his friends, as this is my son, archie, the lawyer, and I could just see the glint in his eye every time he did that, so it was really special. I mean, it was very embarrassing for me, but for him it was just one of the nicest things he could do and say Fantastic.
Speaker 1:So you've spent your entire career with what is now MV Law.
Speaker 2:That's correct, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what was your journey through there to partner? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:Look, I started as a recent graduate. I hadn't actually been admitted as a lawyer when I started, so I was the kid that did all the deliveries, I did the lodgements at court, all the jobs at the bottom end of the pecking order that people had to do. And once I became admitted as a lawyer which was not long after, which was about a year after that one of the partners suggested to me that I might try an area of law that I had no interest in, which was litigation. I tried that for a while but got the opportunity to be able to do some work on really interesting matters with some great clients, and that really gave me sort of the opportunity to be able to prove that I could do what I did. And eventually, after only a couple of years and it was looking back in hindsight it's horrifying to think that they had the confidence to offer me a partnership when I was not quite 27.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Well, you must have achieved some great stuff for them in those early years I did.
Speaker 2:But again, I mean, at that stage of your career you probably things you don't know are probably more than things you know. So and again, looking back to that time, I think I kind of just got through by sheer hard work, frankly, and by having some good people around me to learn from, but it was really just putting in the hours and just going hard, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what's changed in legal practice over the course of your career?
Speaker 2:That's an interesting question. Probably two things probably stand out. I think technology is clearly one of the things that has changed practice significantly, both in terms of day-to-day interactions but in terms of the way lawyers connect with one another and, in turn, deal with the courts. But probably one of the big things and reflecting on this is probably the fact that when I started law, most of the lawyers that I knew around me were white men. These days, most graduates are women and, quite frankly, I think as an employer of young lawyers, I look at the cohort coming through and the women coming through are super impressive, so, but it's something that it was certainly not the case nearly 40 years ago when I started, and that sort of cohort of the white male, anglo-saxon male is really not the typical lawyer that you see today.
Speaker 1:Now there'll be people listening to this who think that you know, acting as a or working as a lawyer is really just a job, but obviously you're seeing it as a partner and as a chairman of the firm much more from a business point of view. What are the particular challenges you see in running a legal business, and do they really differ from the challenges facing other businesses?
Speaker 2:I think they're identical to other businesses. They are about making sure you've got a clear plan of who you are, making sure that you're clear in your approach to market, making sure that all the things that you do represent those things that you um aspiring to be, that that goes from your premises to your staff, to the way you interact with your clients. Um and um, and for us, um, it's really about the, the relationships that we create. So it is about creating relationships, um, and that's certainly the case for most businesses, I think. Even if you're a retailer, you still have to create relationships with your clients. So I see it as a business, but you know, it's obviously a profession, and a profession that has probably changed more than most in the last 40, 50 years, certainly 40 years since I started practising. So tell us a little bit about him.
Speaker 1:For your law, how big's the team?
Speaker 2:we're. We're about 65 people. That's in Canberra terms, that's a lot, quite a large firm. At times we've been a lot, lot, lot larger than that, but when we as Going back to that question about being clear about who we are, once we made that decision about who we wanted to be and what we wanted to do, that necessarily meant some changes in the personnel and the numbers of people we had. So now we've got there are five partners in the firm, and the five partners are the leaders, obviously, but you're as good as the people around you and we're extremely fortunate to have some people who've been with us a long time who are exceptional at what they do. So it's something that I can still look at and be very proud of every day.
Speaker 1:So the journey, your strategic journey, to get to understanding your purpose, your role, who you are, who you want to be, how did you go through that and what was the evolution of it?
Speaker 2:Many iterations, Greg.
Speaker 2:They came from this idea that being bigger was better and that came about as a result of a merger of the firm back in 2005. At that time, we became Canberra's biggest firm and that certainly created some opportunities for us in terms of our ability to be able to reach different types of clients, to our presence, to market all of that, and that obviously involves sitting around a table, lots of navel-gazing, considering where we were at and what we wanted to do, and over time that's been refined more and more. We're very clear about the fact that we are a firm that represents, that works in a number of areas. We work in property, commercial law, we do a lot of work in and around individuals as well private clients, and our services are tailored to suit sort of those groups.
Speaker 1:Now as a Canberra local. You grew up here, you've spent your entire career here, 40-odd years. You must have witnessed a big evolution both in our city but also in the business environment. What's changed over that time?
Speaker 2:Look, I think Canberra's grown up. There's no doubt about that. Thinking back to the Canberra that I grew up in, which was Canberra in the 70s, it was probably regarded as an outpost. When I finished uni it was very much about trying to get work in Sydney or the big cities or working for big firms, and most of my cohort did that. Very few of us stayed behind, but over time I'm finding and seeing that many younger lawyers are seeing the opportunities that there are in Canberra, because Canberra is a good place to live. There are opportunities here.
Speaker 2:People call it a big country town. It is, and if you consistently do the right thing, people can see that they forgive you if you do the wrong thing. From you know if you make a mistake, and that's because you're able to forge and develop a reputation. So that's certainly something that I see that in a business context happens. My children always growing up, hated the fact that I'd walk down the street and know many people, but they also now recognise and they've both stayed in Canberra they recognise that Canberra's got a lot to offer in terms of career opportunity, access to great things around here.
Speaker 2:It's a big city without being a really big city. It's still an easy place to live and it has been a good place to do business. Certainly, the business environment is a lot tougher these days and there's a sense, I think, that business people talk about business as if it's an entity, rather than talking about you know people and that's one of the challenges that I think we have in business generally is not talking about business as a thing. We need to talk about business as a group of people who are doing things, and once we think about that and those people who are investing their time and money in the city, then I think if we recognise them that way, we'll also recognise the opportunities to be able to help for them, to help the city continue to grow and develop.
Speaker 1:And I think you raise a really interesting point that often business is painted as this kind of sort of faceless beast and there's an assumption, I think, sometimes that business will always be here, that businesses will just always trade. Do you think that's true, or do you think there are real pressures on business?
Speaker 2:I think that was probably true for a long time. I've got a very strong sense that that's no longer the case. I think there is a concern by business that the opportunities are taken away from them, that there's other jurisdictions where potentially, you could doing the same thing, you could do better. But look, maybe that's a perception only, but the reality is, I think the people I talk to tell me that that's hard, and I hear more and more and I have heard more and more the last handful of years people saying it's just too hard to do things here. I'll go somewhere else and do it. Some people will continue to do it just because they've always done it, and they also see the opportunity to be here long term and to be able to have deep roots in the business community and in life. It makes it hard for them to leave, but we shouldn't take that for granted. As a community, we should actually respect that and actually help those people do even more than they do, yeah. So what do we do about that? Do you think, archie? Yeah, it's a hard one. Look, it's not one thing.
Speaker 2:I don't think it is about people understanding what I've just described, and when I say people, I think people who aren't in business probably don't appreciate the pressures and the needs and stresses that business owners have. Most of these people and most businesses in Canberra we know there's nearly 35,000 businesses here. Most of them are very small. Many of them carry significant debt and responsibility, but they are our employers. They're the people who are investing, they're the people who are developing the city. They're the people who are growing the city. So it's that understanding as a starting point.
Speaker 2:I think it's probably ensuring that government really does understand that and respects that by helping business they are helping the community. More generally, I think there is a sense that sometimes from government that business can just do more for government, and what I mean by that is pay more money and be able to contribute more from a cash perspective. But businesses are not here just about making money. That's part of what they do do. But if you take away the incentive and take away the reason why they exist, they'll eventually say this is all too hard and I'll close up shop and I'll move across the border. I'll go somewhere else. So we need to. So I think education, communication is a huge part of what we've got to do and I'm not sure that that message is getting across to the community more broadly.
Speaker 1:Now you've been involved in the business chamber, or indeed the business council as it was then, for a number of years, and you're staying on the board as a director, which is fantastic. But how did you first get involved?
Speaker 2:Look, I guess it was sitting on the sidelines and being one of those people who were critical of things that are happening in the town and eventually realising that the only way you could change things was to join an organisation like the Chamber and start actually advocating for the things that I believed in. I was very fortunate that I joined the Chamber at a time where there were some people that I looked up to and respected. People like Glenn Keyes and John Hindmarsh were significant influences on me and my journey through the council as it then was Brandhoff. You know people who were legends in Canberra business. So it became a really easy thing to do and it became fun because I found that I was doing something different. I was thinking differently about things, but I was able to genuinely influence what was going on in the city and be able to impose that view in my discussions with people, and when I say people I mean the broader business community, but also government and others who have an interest in what a business does in Canberra.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so six years as chair chair. What have you most enjoyed? It's really easy.
Speaker 2:The people I think the people when I say the people, I'm talking about the people who work in the chamber, who are an exceptional team. The board, who have been every single board member that I've worked with in the time that I've been on the council as it then was, and the chamber now have been terrific to work with, really there for the right reasons, very genuine in their desire to make Canberra a better place to do business, which ultimately is the goal of the chamber, and the members. There are just some exceptional businesses out there who are doing amazing things and I'm not sure that Canberrans realise that we do punch above our weight in terms of what we do and contribute to Australia more broadly. So being able to see those businesses develop and learn from them has been just a wonderful part of what I've been able to see.
Speaker 1:Now the business environment at the moment more generally is pretty tough right around Australia, but including here in Canberra. I mean, what's your sense? Has it ever been tougher and are things going to get better?
Speaker 2:I'm an optimist, so I always believe they're going to get better, but there's and I certainly think it's the toughest that I've ever seen. There were certainly times in the the toughest that I've ever seen. There were certainly times in the nineties that were tough, but this is really another level of toughness, if I can describe it that way. Uh, interest rates obviously play a big part in it. I don't think that's the only thing. I think having a business environment which creates opportunity, creates um, gives people the opportunity to grow and develop what they do in this town is a big part of it, and government's got a lot to say in that. But I think it's also just knuckling down and just staying the course and believing that this is going to turn around and it'll be okay. That's a big part of it. And I think when you've been in business for as long as I have, you see the highs and lows and you do see that the waves you've got to ride the waves sometimes and you'll come out the other side and you'll be okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And that can certainly be challenging if you're a business owner, particularly a small business, and you're kind of facing a tsunami of regulation, compliance, cost and difficulty in employing people. Your advice for them is just to kind of stay firm, hold to your strategy and carry on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, strategy is the big one. I think most businesses just do things, because strategy and being clear about who you are and what you do is a critical element of that. That will inform your decisions about investing. That will inform your decisions about employing new people or not employing people, as the case may be. It'll inform your decision about which markets you're going to be in. So strategy is a huge part of it and just having a clear plan is critically important, I think, but also just believing in what you've got in your product and what you do and what you deliver. One of the things that I can say about my day job is that I can feel very comfortable about what we're delivering to our clients, who are doing really good things as well. Most of our clients are businesses, and being able to help them and support them do what they do is one of the joys of what I do every day.
Speaker 1:Now, archie, we're recording this just before Christmas. It's the end of 2024, if you can believe that, how are you going to be celebrating the festive season and what is the summer hold in store for you?
Speaker 2:I think this year has obviously been challenging for a lot of reasons for most people, but I think this year is probably sort of the end of a number of years of difficulty and my sense and this is where I'm feeling as well is that everyone's limping along and looking forward to just having some downtime, uh, being able to just take it easy and, um, just enjoy, you know, friends and family and all that stuff. Uh, over the break, um, I plan to be in canberra. I love canberra when it's quiet. Um, I love canberra when it's busy, uh, but, uh, this year it'll just be a quiet time and just enjoying it. And it sounds and it looks like we'll have a beautifully hot summer. I love hot weather, so I'll be looking forward to just enjoying some time around a pool or just being outside, having some dinner or drinks or whatever it is, with friends, yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll keep our fingers crossed for the weather and I wish you all the very best for the festive season.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Greg, and you too.
Speaker 1:Archie Siramokos is the Chairman of MV Law and the former Chair of the Canberra Business Chamber. Archie, it's been great having a chat today. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and thank you, Antomaya Vandenberg, for your support of the Chamber over many years. It's been great having a chat and we look forward to catching up in the new year.
Speaker 1:Thanks, greg and Merry Christmas to you and your family and to all our members and listeners. Thank you, archie. This has been the Canberra Business Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on your favourite podcast platform for more episodes. And thanks to the University of Canberra for its support of this podcast. Don't forget that your business, archie, and any other, can benefit from fresh ideas and perspectives by using student interns, and if you want to know more about that, reach out to careers at canberraeduau. Catch you next time.