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The Canberra Business Podcast
A podcast about all things Canberra Business.
The Canberra Business Podcast
Data's Hidden Meaning
Data is everywhere in your organization, but do you truly understand what it means? Sam Spencer, CEO and CISO of Aristotle Metadata, reveals how the missing piece in most data strategies isn't fancy algorithms or massive storage capabilities—it's simply understanding what your data means and where it lives.
From measuring podcast listeners to protecting patient information, Sam explains how his Canberra-based software company helps organizations describe their data in human terms. "A database will tell you how many listeners there are in a podcast, but it won't tell you how you measure a listener or what a listener is for your context," Sam notes, highlighting the critical difference between having data and understanding it.
The journey of Aristotle Metadata is a testament to bootstrapped entrepreneurship. Starting with code written in a "dingy little apartment" in Belconnen a decade ago, the company has grown to over 20 staff with clients across government, healthcare, and academia in Australia and internationally. Sam shares candid insights about surviving near-catastrophe when 40% of his workforce left within two weeks, and why—despite preaching the importance of taking breaks—he's only now planning his first real holiday in seven years.
Have a listen!
Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast. I'm Greg Harford, your host from the Canberra Business Chamber, and today I'm joined by Sam Spencer, the CEO and CISO of Aristotle Metadata. Sam, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Now let's get started. What is Aristotle Metadata? What do you do?
Speaker 2:What do we do? The short answer is we make it easier for organizations to find and use their data. So we're a software company based here out of Canberra, with clients internationally and, to give you a really good example, a lot of people, when they come on podcasts or when they talk about these opportunities, talk about, you know, listenership and audience. So what we do is we help people describe that, because you know, listenership is a very interesting number. If I was to listen to your podcast five times, you know, am I counted once as one listener or is it five different events? And it's really useful for us to know that when we're trying to compare you know different podcasts, like how do you measure your audience versus other people? So what we do is help people talk about what their data means, and we find that that's really useful for helping them find you know where their data is, because they can search through that meaning and interpret it better.
Speaker 1:So we're not just talking about podcast data, though, right, we're talking about all sorts of information that businesses hold.
Speaker 2:We do everything. So we work with a lot of really diverse organisations, so we work with a lot of government organisations here in Australia and we measure, you know, citizen data data about all of us to help protect it, because, you know, the more we know about data, the more we can protect it. We also work with organisations over in Europe in the healthcare sector looking at patient data, and we've also worked with areas in the private sector looking at hospital data, but also looking at heavy industry and manufacturing, because data really controls all of our lives. So it's important that we know what it is and know how it's used.
Speaker 1:So do you kind of suck data out of your customers systems or do you get them to, or do you sell a system that they put the data into?
Speaker 2:We sell a system for them to put meaning into. So we don't actually connect with data systems very much. We do have some connectors to kind of pull bits out, but the biggest gap I think the biggest opportunity for a lot of organisations is actually writing down what your data means. A database will tell you how many listeners there are in a podcast, but it won't tell you how you measure a listener or what a listener is for your context. So we actually have systems that have, you know, hundreds or thousands of users for our clients, where they'll have you know everybody in their business areas talking about why they collected data.
Speaker 2:Because data doesn't tell us where it came from. It doesn't tell us why it exists. It's people who make those decisions. You know, one day you and your team sat down and said we're going to do a podcast and we want to measure the impact of that, and there's probably some reporting that goes to you as the, you know as the CEO of the organization that says you know, this is something that we want to keep doing. We measure that impact and that's what we want to do is go well, you know we made a decision to collect some data through these podcast channels. What does it mean and how does it really relate to business?
Speaker 1:And presumably you can then, as a business, use that data to inform your future decisions about where you go and what products and services you might be wanting to offer.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1:So how long have you been going at Aristotle?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. So we've been as a business. So you know and I think this is a really fun one to talk about as a founder is we were founded in a coffee shop in Black Mountain seven and a half years ago. And I say it's one of the most interesting experiences because, if you look at the paperwork, I sat down and I was the only person officially present at the meeting, even though my co-founder was there. And you know, I voted myself into three or four companies and we registered, but the first line of code was probably written a little over 10 years ago. So I'm a, I'm a software engineer and a data engineer by by my you know trade. And I one day sat down and said I'm going to build a software company that's going to have installations around the world. And about 11 years ago in Belconnen, I sat down in my back room of my dingy little apartment and started coding.
Speaker 1:And it's obviously been working. So how's your growth been over that time?
Speaker 2:Steady. I think the software industry. We have this expectation of what they call hockey stick growth, where you go kind of slowly and you hit this inflection point and you go through the moon. We've been growing, you know, probably double digits year on year, for, you know, ever since we started and you know, from a staff perspective, this year we cracked 20 staff, um, uh, in-house, uh, that's all of our development and product team. Um, so yeah, we've been, we've been growing very, very well. Um, in that time we've grown not only in the ACT or the federal market, but uh, in, you know, states across Australia. And then you know, we're slowly, uh, starting to see expansion internationally, which is where our next big jump is, which is where I met you over in New Zealand on an export mission recently.
Speaker 1:So tell me about your export journey. I mean, how has that gone for you? Where did you start and how did you get your first international customers?
Speaker 2:I think software is really it's a bit easy when it comes to exporting, and I say that because I think it's a bit easy when it comes to exporting um, and I say that because I think it's it's really difficult and you know, I think we had a couple of conversations when we were over there, because we were over there with the canberra distillery and and some some other manufacturers and putting products into market is actually quite hard when you've got to put a physical product, you know, into market um, but for software you just need a website and you just need interest and I think over the last you know probably what 25 years cloud computing has made it even easier.
Speaker 2:You know we have a, we have an island data center and we have a us data center for our, for our international clients, um, as long as an asian, pacific and australian data centers, and you know technologies like you know amazon Services, who we use, or Azure, have made it very easy for software companies to just open those up.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of the time it's just good positioning and good online marketing and AdWords and all those kind of things and then making sure that people know how to contact you. I think the difficulties are from a business perspective and I think this is universal is being able to navigate different tax systems and different international selling rules. And all of a sudden you're talking about you know, I think it was at Duns and Bradstreet where you've got to have a particular international identifier like an ABN, but for international, and I think the other one is really looking at making sure that you understand, you know international context and you're able to operate in international time zones. So you know, for us to scale, we still operate from here, but that means there's been some pretty interesting late night you know conference calls with people over in in uh in europe now, many people I talked about exporting say that relationships are key to building and maintaining a successful export trajectory.
Speaker 1:Um, but in a software sense, is that true or is it actually just quite different?
Speaker 2:um, I think it's a little bit true and again, I think it's it's interesting noting the distinction between the two um and I won't. I won't profess to be an expert on what it's like in in, you know, physical industries, but having someone who can, you know, advocate for your product in market, you know, in another country, in another geography, is really, really important. Um, and even on the scale of Australia, having people that you know know you over in Perth as a good example is really important. So I would say that when we're working internationally, our networks are less important in that regard. Like, I think it's really important that we have strong relationships with our clients, because when you move into a new market, it can give you a really rapid growth in that market if that's interconnected.
Speaker 2:But I think in software and in the knowledge economy, some of the people that I've worked with internationally have had contacts back here in Australia as well, because they go to similar conferences and because we don't have that challenge of putting products into the market, we don't need to worry about them being able to take that product in through a distribution channel. When we start to look at our partner network, which is probably one of our big growth strategies for this year, then again, that'll change as well. But I think for software, I think it comes with different unique challenges when it comes to positioning things in market.
Speaker 1:Okay, you talked a little bit about government clients before, and obviously you've got a number of private sector clients as well, but what sort of businesses are making use of your services?
Speaker 2:At the moment, our biggest sectors are government. Healthcare and academia are probably the three biggest sectors we work with, and behind that would be, you know, large industry. So I think a lot of organisations are trying to leverage their data, but the biggest challenges we see are in organisations that are large enough, where it's difficult to track what's happening with that data. Again, one of the examples just to bring it back to yourself is to say a lot of organizations are now running events like podcasts and they get information and they run events like the. What is business after dark is the one I'm ready business after business business after business, sorry, business after business.
Speaker 2:I'll see you at that, but with those we collect a lot of personal information through systems like Eventbrite.
Speaker 2:So somebody will go and you know I had to give my name and my telephone number to you to come along to the event and I think those are the areas where we're seeing data that's existing outside of the you know the sphere ofdo, because you know we can't move eventbrite into a data warehouse.
Speaker 2:It's a, it's an external system, but it's still a data source. So we see, the biggest opportunity for ourselves is with clients or with with areas where they're collecting data from a lot of disparate sources and they're starting to worry about where that data is flowing internally. Because I think it's important for us to recognize transparently that that data that goes into that Eventbrite event and we do the same thing it feeds into our marketing lists and it feeds into our assessment of the market to understand market size. We're using that data for business intelligence and I think what we want to do is make sure that everybody, regardless of whether they're in a traditional data area or a business area, or marketing and sales or even administration and HR making sure that they know that other people know what data they've got. You know, not giving access to it, but making sure that everybody knows what's there, and that's where you know the biggest industries are. You know, healthcare and government and and those larger private sector. Biggest industries are healthcare and government and those larger private sector organisations.
Speaker 1:And obviously in healthcare and government, and indeed across education and business, I guess as well. Security of information is really important. How do you go about protecting your clients' data?
Speaker 2:We do what we say we do and I think we do what we tell our clients to do, which is you need to know what data assets you hold. Um, you need to, you know, capture it. You need to, to tell people what you've got, and that starts with just writing it down, um, you know, keeping a really good inventory and making sure that people have access to that inventory. I think there was a big event earlier in the news with Qantas not realising how much data had moved offshore and moved to a third-party organisation, and there was a big data breach that I was impacted by. I'm not sure if you were impacted by that one, greg.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think it's making sure that we write it down and that's what we do is we internally have a nice little data inventory that we keep up to date, because I think it's important for us to demonstrate to ourselves and to demonstrate to our clients that we follow the same practices that we encourage them to follow do you think that we're doing enough about cybersecurity across the board?
Speaker 2:No, oh, wow, no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple of threads that we can pull on this one, but I think we're not helping non-technical people and I'm putting that in air quotes for people at home, quote-unquote non-technical people to.
Speaker 2:I'm putting that in air quotes for people at home, you know, quote unquote non-technical people to understand what they can do. I think, again, a lot, of a lot, of what we do with data comes down to how we treat it and how we tell people what it is and where it is, and I think that's probably the biggest area that we can improve is to tell people that you don't need to be a data expert to know what data is or why it was collected or where it's stored, and that's what we need to be capturing as a first starting point is. One of the principles that we tell all of our clients is you know what data do you have? You know how did you collect it and who has access to it, and how do I find out who has more information about it? Are four very, very simple things to collect, and that's what we really need to focus on is building better practice around pulling that information together.
Speaker 1:So in Aristotle, you're both the Chief Executive Officer but also the Chief Information Security Officer. How do you navigate the responsibilities of leading the company while ensuring robust data security?
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I've learned in my time is that the chief executive officer ultimately is responsible for everything. That's your role is you're responsible for the operations of the company and we have delegates to support that. We had a really good colleague who joined us for a short period of time, who took the hat, but, you know, moved on to different opportunities and we're very proud of them. But I think ultimately, the CEO needs to understand that you have responsibility over these things, whether or not it's part of your title. You know and that comes to, if you're a chief executive officer who's not the chief information security officer, you're still the person who appointed them and you know you may have delegated that responsibility down a layer, but you know, to a certain extent you still have responsibility and that's why I think one of the things that we need to be training executives on is to understand, from a data perspective, you know, what they can do.
Speaker 2:You know what's in their control and what they need to do from a leadership perspective to help others along that journey. So what?
Speaker 1:what does the future hold for aristotle metadata? What sort of products are we going to see? And then, and then, what's the growth? What's the growth plan?
Speaker 2:uh, what's the growth plan? What products are we going to see? What growth are we going to see? What growth are we going to see? I think so growth is a really easy one. Again, you know, growth is very, very easy to talk about quote unquote. Easy to talk about in software, in the sense that I think we've not hit 1% of our size, like we've not even captured 1% of the market that we think is there, because we think, I think, that we're approaching this from a very human-centric perspective.
Speaker 2:A lot of our clients have very large percentages of their staff on our platform, so it's not a traditional data platform. We'll have hundreds or thousands of staff on these platforms talking about their data, and I think that's the thing that we want to change. So we're about to enter a partnership with a local university to really expand on some methodologies that we've been producing. So we authored the MAST methodology, which I think is a really great framework that we call the Agile for Data Management, which is really telling people what we want them to do and how we want them to behave when it comes to data at work, and I think that's going to unlock, you know, the next, you know 100 or the next 1,000 clients for Aristotle New products. I think again, there's a lot of opportunity in helping people understand what their data means and how we use that intelligence and how we use data governance to drive decisions in organisations.
Speaker 1:How do you drive continuous learning within your team? Obviously you've got a team that's grown relatively fast over a number of years. The aspiration is for more growth. You've got to keep people engaged. You've got to keep people learning over that time. How do you drive that culture?
Speaker 2:Again through leadership. I think again, when you build a company, there's a lot of knowledge in your head and one of the principles that I've had is I want to get as much out of that as possible. So and I'm happy to talk about this, but I'll be taking my first holiday later this year. So I haven't had a holiday since we started. I've been on conferences.
Speaker 1:In seven years. Yes, Wow.
Speaker 2:Well, we've been on trips to visit family and we've been on conferences and stayed a couple of extra days, but this is the first time that my family will be taking a full-on holiday where we don't talk to anybody, and I think that's been a long journey because you have to get all that knowledge out. I think one of the things that you have to do as an organization that's very hard to culturally challenge is you really want to make everybody a little bit redundant, because if nobody knows how to operate when you're not there, then you're never going to take a break and you're always going to get messages and you're never going to get it perfect. But if you don't try to get rid of that information to get other people knowing about it, then that's a real challenge and that's something that I've done since the start, because when you're a small organization, if a couple of people leave, it can be really disastrous. If a couple of people leave, it can be really disastrous, and I think one of the proudest moments, one of the scariest moments, was when we were still five people and we had two of our engineers leave in a very short space of time, and I've written about this as a chapter in a book that I'm publishing, and when two people leave in a big organization, that's, you know, a bit rough. That was 40 percent of our workforce who left within two weeks.
Speaker 2:One was poached and then one had family matters that they needed to move into state for and it was very much a make or break moment. I was like you know I don't think I told anybody I was like I don't know if we're going to survive. We were petrified and my co-founder, lauren, and one of our former employees who's left now, but Dylan, who's a great guy and I'll make him listen to this podcast we sat down and we were like, what are we going to do? And we started to think about it and we were able to hire two you know, relatively junior staff to replace them. We brought someone on soon after that as well, and the big thing for us is at the time. You know we only release every two weeks now, but at the time we were releasing weekly, so we do a weekly release of all of our software and that was our big moment of truth was we had a staff member leave on a Friday and we released on the following Tuesday and that was a big relief because we're like, okay, we can actually run the company without him.
Speaker 2:So we've really focused on like a lot of internal whiteboarding sessions and knowledge capture. So you know, a couple of the team have said that I like to teach and I do Like I like to teach people how to, you know, be the best that they can be. So we do a lot of whiteboarding sessions where they can ask questions and ask really tough questions about why we do things or how we've built things, and I think making sure that learning and development is a big part of your culture is really important. So we do, you know, every two or three weeks we'll do like a little whiteboarding session. We try and capture everything in our knowledge base. We practice, you know, all these routines that we set up. So you know we can release really quickly. And we go to conferences and we go to events. So we actually go to a couple of conferences in Canberra and say, go and learn some stuff and, you know, come back with good ideas.
Speaker 1:And the issue with small businesses I think that you raise is a really important one and resonates, I think, for many business owners, not just in the software space but sort of right across the board. The smaller you are, the more reliant you are on your team. So have you got any tips for keeping people engaged and productive?
Speaker 2:I would say so, first of all is, I would say, really, when it comes to recruiting, one thing that I've done that is, again, there's a lot of luck in the industry, so I don't know how well this has worked for us, but I've always focused on hiring for redundancy first, before bringing on new people. So that sounds a little bit weird, but what we've done is we've always made sure that our capacity to do what we currently do is really strong before we branch into something else. If you have, you know, five people doing five different tasks, if one of them leaves, one of those tasks is getting dropped. So we we focused on going well, let's build a really good development team, okay, and then let's build a really good support team and then let's build a really good marketing and sales team and then we focus on the next thing. Uh, when it comes to keeping people engaged, I would say, uh, I think you know there was a really good article in the workforce you know the abc recently about, uh, underpayment in the workforce and you know, um, you know people taking advantage of young workers and we have a relatively young workforce is, I think, making sure you're meeting your obligations is really step one, as a first stage, is making sure that you're a good employer, and that's as simple as paying on time, being transparent, making sure that all of your superannuation obligations are up to date.
Speaker 2:Because, like Greg, I'll tell you you quite honestly, it's a bit of a sad, sad state of affairs where doing the right thing sets you apart. You know that story in the ABC this morning talking about how there are employers out there who are just not paying their super annuation obligations. You know, there's little things like. Little things like that, like following the law. You know they set you apart and and talking transparently about why you do those things, I think is important. And the other one is making sure that people are taking, you know taking their annual leave. You know, I think one thing that we don't realise is oh, that goes.
Speaker 1:I was going to say but you yourself haven't managed to take a holiday. In seven and a half years I've taken time off.
Speaker 2:So I will caveat that time off. So I will, I will caveat that. So we will like, uh, my, my, my wife and I, we do go to the us because she's got family there and, uh, we go. So we go to family and we, we do take time off over there, but I think, you know, I'm off to fiji later this year, um, but kudos on calling me out for my hypocrisy there um, but, and again, the reason I say that is like, it's okay if you, if you own the company, you, it's very hard to switch off.
Speaker 2:And that's what I think one of the things that I've really been careful to help my team understand is that if you're like, and and I've been a worker, I've been an employee and you know, I I say this because my dad, uh, you know, when I was younger, um was in the seismic industry and worked exceptionally long hours for, you know, share options that never eventuated into anything and it actually put my family in a rough state. And and that's why I say is, you know, employees need to look after themselves first and you need to help them understand that. And and the other thing is from that, from that annual leave perspective, I think, as an employer, understanding that every time that somebody doesn't take leave, that's a liability that sits on your balance sheet and it grows and grows and grows and grows and one day one of those people will leave and if they've got 60 days of leave, you've got to pay that out. So it's good for you to do that, but it's also good for them, because you get more out of your team when they're rested and recovered. You know when they've, when they've had a chance to switch off and digest.
Speaker 2:So I think, um, yeah, it's really about making sure you're doing you know the things that everybody expects of you and then, once you've got a really good organization in place, making sure that you're you know, giving people the opportunities and really meeting the bonus kind of factors cool foosball tables and ping pong tables and beer on a Friday and pizzas and stuff. So I think it's twofold have a good place to work, have a nice place to be, and then figure out what you can throw on top of that to keep people engaged figure out what you can throw on top of that to keep people engaged.
Speaker 1:Let's just touch, finally, on the startup process of Aristotle Metadata Now. As I understand it, you were built without you founded. The company co-founded, the company was built without external investment. What were the key challenges and advantages of bootstrapping the company, and how did that shape your growth?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple of I think there's a couple of.
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple of things to talk about here, because we we are a traditional business to business company, which which really changes how you are for people who are thinking of looking at a startup.
Speaker 2:I think what you want to focus on before you, you know, start down that journey is figure out who are you trying to target to, because that can change. You know you can get very big user numbers if you're focusing on individuals. You know if you're doing business to, because that can change. You know you can get very big user numbers if you're focusing on individuals. You know, if you're doing business to customer things like Facebook or, you know, uber or Tinder, you can get really big numbers and that's really attractive to investors. For us, because we were looking at businesses, it meant that we could have, you know, one customer with a thousand clients, but it still looks like one customer and from a risk perspective, it's a big risk because you've got one customer who might just take away all your users. So I think knowing that before you start down that journey is really really important. I think the thing beyond that is sorry, what was the question again?
Speaker 1:You don't have to edit this bit out. I was just talking about you know what were kind of the advantages and disadvantages of that approach.
Speaker 2:So I think the advantage is you maintain a lot of control, like you maintain a lot of creative control, and I think anybody who considers themselves to be a founder they feel like they're the creative influence. So being able to exert that control for a longer period of time is really good. We haven't, you know, refused investment. I think we just haven't found the right fit yet, and that's you know good, because you get to control it. But you know the flip side is that you know it's on you, it's all on you.
Speaker 2:The other disadvantage to that is, I think, you know, investment from when you look at these stories online, you know it makes things easier and you can kind of have a big impact really fast. So it changes how you burn. Um, so I think that the, the, the pros and cons here really are um, you know, if you, if you seek that external investment, making sure you can communicate that message really really well and understand that you get a big drive to have to grow really really quickly. If you do it in a bootstrap fashion, like we did, you really have to learn about the fundamentals of running a business, because there's no guardrails, there's no a round, b, round, c, round d round. You don't just get people kind of giving you money and hoping that it turns into the next facebook. You've got to make sure that you're managing profit and loss and and I think, um, that's given us a very strong insight onto what we're going to look like. You know, when we are as big as we want to be and, I think, to give you the dream, to give you the closing out, you know, one of the things we say is I think we're canberra's Atlassian, we're going to be the biggest employer in Canberra and that's what I want us to be. I think that's as big as we're going to be is we're going to have the same influence that Atlassian does on Sydney, if not more.
Speaker 2:And I think, by going through the heart of the yards now of learning how to operate a business according to the balance sheet, it gives you a very, very different perspective, um, not better, not worse, um, but it means you have to operate with a different set of parameters around you. So I'd say that anybody who's looking at at doing a startup it's to do, you know, kind of building a startup is is. You know, figure out how you want to grow, figure out who you want to target, because that's really going to influence how you do that, and you know, understand that. You know there's a lot of pros and cons with both directions, I think you know. Would our journey have been faster or easier with external investment? Probably yeah, but at the same time you give up a lot of control. So I think you know you need to understand do you want lots of control because you've got that vision and drive, or do you want to get there quickly?
Speaker 1:I love your aspiration that you want to be Canberra's biggest employer and the Canberran answer to Atlassian. Do you think Canberra is the place where businesses really can grow and scale? There's a lot of chatter about payroll tax and business settings and so forth. Will you grow here or will you look to put teams elsewhere?
Speaker 2:I think we'll have. Yes, we will have international like we'll have, you know. I think you know we'll have interstate teams and we'll probably have international teams. Actually, we'll have to have international teams absolutely. But I think Canberra is a good place to build a business. We have, you know, access to a lot of good universities, uh, and there's a lot of opportunity here, and I think one of those opportunities is that it is a, a, a market where you can have influence.
Speaker 2:You know, I think if atlassian moved here tomorrow, they would have such an impact on who this, what this city is, um, I think if an organization of that size came here, it would really change who we are. And I know we had a conversation, um, earlier this year when we're over in wellington. We were talking with the people from the convention center about, you know, building a bigger canberra, and I think the the question that I would ask us is, you know if, hypothetically, if we were the next atlassian, if we were to build this here and we wanted to have, you know, an international conference here, uh, similar to to teams conf, which atlassian runs over in vegas, which is like I think it's 10 000 people, we wouldn't be prepared to run that, and and we don't need to do that tomorrow, but for Aristotle to grow here, we need that. In five years' time, like, we're going to have to find a venue that can support, you know, 10,000 international users to launch our next product and to launch the next, you know, the IPO, because this is the town that I want to do it in, because I think nobody else has done it, and that makes it a really fun challenge and that's what we need to start thinking about from a Canberra perspective is, if we don't think about how we're going to build these things, we're not going to have the support to do it, we're not going to have a reason to do it.
Speaker 2:So you know what I'd say to you, and you know what I'd say to you and what I'd say to the Chief Minister is we need to build that convention centre, because in five years' time, I'm going to bring a 10,000-person conference here and if it's not us, it's going to be someone else. It doesn't necessarily need to be the Aristotle Convention Centre, though I hope it will, but we have to prepare for that future. We have two, three universities, um, probably what? Six universities, I think. Uh, here we have, you know, some of the most educated people, and I think the big possibility is in in gov. Tech is to take the expertise of the public service and build software products, like we've done, and ship them internationally. We have some of the smartest, well-educated, most resourced people. If it's not us, it's going to be someone, and I think Canberra needs to be ready for when that happens.
Speaker 1:Well, I love your ambition, and it's certainly one that the Chamber's really supportive of. We want Canberra to be the greatest place in Australia to do business Well.
Speaker 1:Canberra is the greatest place in Australia and we need companies to get in behind us and really sort of drive for growth. So it's really good to hear that that's the plan. Sam Spencer from Aristotle Metadata, thank you so much for joining me here on the Canberra Business Podcast. It's been really great having a chat. Really enjoyed it. Hope our listeners have enjoyed that as well and if you are tuning in, don't forget to follow us on your favourite podcast platform for future episodes of the Canberra Business Podcast. Sam Spencer, thank you so much for your time. We'll catch you next time.