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The Canberra Business Podcast
A podcast about all things Canberra Business.
The Canberra Business Podcast
How Canberra Employers Can Build Inclusive Trades Teams
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The construction skills gap keeps getting louder, yet a huge pool of capable people still sits on the sidelines. We sit down with Greg Lackey, Social Inclusion Manager at Programmed, to talk about what happens when you stop treating workforce inclusion like a feel-good extra and start building real pathways into the trades, especially for people with disability and others facing barriers to employment in Canberra.
We dig into how Programmed’s work on the ACT public housing maintenance contract creates practical opportunities, from “stepping stone” jobs that build confidence to hands-on workshops that let participants try real tasks like patching plasterboard and adjusting hinges alongside licensed contractors. Greg shares a story that captures the whole point: a participant taking photos of tools during training because his mum is at Bunnings buying them so he can fix the walls at home. That’s what capability looks like when it’s given room to show up.
We also get specific about what makes these pathways work for employers: safety-first culture, white card readiness, asbestos and silica awareness, mental health support, and clearer connections to apprenticeships and ASBAs. Then we tackle the big misconceptions head-on, including the myth that employing people with disability is always expensive or complicated, and we unpack how JobAccess and other supports can reduce risk and help teams thrive.
If you employ trades, manage contracts, or want a stronger local workforce, this conversation offers practical steps you can take tomorrow. Subscribe, share this with an employer who needs to hear it, and leave a review so more Canberra businesses can find these inclusive hiring ideas.
Welcome And Today’s Focus
SPEAKER_01Hello and welcome to the Canberra Business Podcast. I'm Greg Harford, your host from the Canberra Business Chamber, and today I'm delighted to be joined by another Greg. I'm speaking to Gregory Lackey from Programmed. We're going to be talking about pathways to construction programs, workforce pathways, and disability inclusion. So Greg, great having you here. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Now tell us a little bit to begin with, because some people may not be familiar. What is programmed and where do you sit in the employment and training landscape?
SPEAKER_00So a bit of an exciting year for us. We've we turned 75 this year. And I think an inspiring story that, you know, you think back 1951, I think it was, there was two painters and one van that started programmed. So, and now you look at us now. So we're a we're a very large facility management and staffing company also doing maintenance. And so now we employ 30,000 people. We engage with and partner with around 10,000 businesses, large and small. And that's across the country. And that's across the country, including New Zealand. So, you know, for to going from two painters to such a large organization in so
What Programmed Does In Canberra
SPEAKER_00many different industries, um, yeah, programs are very large company. So the contract that we're on here in Canberra is the uh public housing maintenance contract. So we do we do all the maintenance for all those properties, around 12,500 properties. Um and where I sort of fit in on the social inclusion manager, so you know, we're all about me, you know, meeting and partnering with different businesses across the ACT and um you know creating opportunities for you know people that normally would face barriers to employment. So that's sort of where I sit in in the place with programmed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's that's quite exciting. So so how do you how do you sort of bring that to life? And and does that mean that you you you've got sort of lots of um people who perhaps might face barriers in the workforce that programmed?
SPEAKER_00So so we we come up with programs, we think of new initiatives in order to provide opportunities.
Creating Real Jobs Through Small Roles
SPEAKER_00Um so, for example, we're we're just working on an initiative at the moment where um programmed is gonna do rubbish removal on the housing ACT um contract. Um, and what we've come up with is is is actually something really interesting where we're gonna have three people doing this. We're gonna have a Ute and a trailer, and they're gonna go around and pick up rubbish off you know sites and um when people move out of housing, because we're talking a large, large number of housing. And um, but but when we interview them, we're saying that this is rubbish removal, we don't think that you're going to be in it, want to be in it for a long time. Um so although you're gonna we're gonna employ you full time, so we're gonna give you that confidence that you've got employment. Our whole aim and what we'd want to tell our client is that you know we'd be look looking at wins of people when they leave. You know what I mean? So, and and it's good in the sense that it puts it, it gives them an opportunity to work in a large organization. It gives them a chance to be put in front of a lot of contractors. So we're talking about 900 contractors in that one contract. Um, and then it takes, I think, a lot of the issues around um people that face these barriers and the construction industry is is the risk. So they go and do the the conventional interview. I mean, we can get AI to to write our resumes now, you know what I mean? And see, and they sound fantastic. And some sometimes I read one the other day when we were interviewing someone, and and you can see that the uh there's a Z instead of an S, and you think, okay, this is this is AI. Um and that's the world we live in. So um this this gives people an opportunity and it gives also the contractors an opportunity, they can come to us and say, hey, we know you're running this initiative. Um have you got anyone for us? Because they'll know the housing system, they'll know the contract, so it's sort of trying to come up with ideas that create these employment pathways. Yeah. That's what we're all about.
Who Faces Barriers To Work
SPEAKER_01And who who are we sort of talking about here in terms of accessing those employment pathways? Are we talking uh about people from educational disadvantage or are we talking about people with disabilities? But both or so, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Both ethnic groups, um, people with disabilities, young people that are not attending school. So we work very closely with the schools. We run a similar program in the schools, um, where you know, we're giving people practical experience. Um, and it's those sort of, and we always say to the education directorate or the school that we're dealing with, like, who's not coming to school? Let's get them in just for this day. And you know, even if I come in and meet with them or talk to the parents, whatever, we're trying to do everything possible that we can to get rid of these barriers. Um, because a lot of the time the construction industry is wonderful. You can go and do um work in the construction industry without qualifications, you can go and do laboring and earn actually quite good money. And and some of these guys that aren't getting the idea of your normal education, or they're not learning in the particular ways that's that's I don't mean to be negative, but pushed upon them, um, they'll work like extremely hard. You know what I mean? So, um, and I think the interaction with us is around setting up some realities, and that's what we do with these programs. We we say like, this is what's going to happen, this is how you're supposed to act, you know, don't have your phone open, don't you're not putting it on YouTube, you know, there's safety issues, you know, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, yeah, it's it can be anyone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, fantastic. And and it's in that program space, I guess, that um you and I have sort of first uh first met because, of course, um the Canberra Business Chamber is working with programmed uh around delivering a sort of pathways to construction program where we're helping uh people with disabilities uh perhaps gain gain some skills.
Pathways To Construction In Practice
SPEAKER_01Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about what that program is and what it's designed for?
SPEAKER_00100%. We are so excited about this. Um this is a this is an add-on to the to the programs we normally run in schools. Um so it it puts people that are interested in the construction industry, gives them a go without them having the fear of starting a job or they they get to try it and they get put in front of you know licensed contractors, and and we're very much about not not talking at them but like letting them have a go. You know what I mean? So get in there, have a go. And so we have, for example, this particular program. Um we have like a big um board that we take in there with plaster on it, they put a hole in it, um, and then we teach them to patch it. Um we do other things like you know how to adjust um your hinges on your kitchen, because we find across the contract, a lot of the time the kitchen doors will start to get loose. Um, and if you can get them at that stage, um you you'll save the kitchen door coming off and actually probably damaging the main um carcass or whatever. So um it's about giving them those experiences. Um we also we have Nika out there sometimes, they're the electrical apprenticeship guys, um, we have electricians, plumbers, um, even arborists, um, and it can change up. Sometimes we have um the locksmith guys have said, yeah, no, we'd be interested. And there's so many wonderful contractors that you know put up their hand and say, Yeah, I want to be involved here, I want to give back to our community, which is awesome. So a little story. Um we ran one of these um programs at um at a school, and and we were going through the the roles of doing everything and giving them a chance and showing them how to patch a hole in a wall. And then about 15 minutes in, one of the students came up to us and said, Hey, Greg, Greg, can you can you let me take photos of the stuff you're using? And I said, Yeah, yeah, no worries. So I took him around, he took the photos. And then I said to him, Can I ask, what are you doing? And he he he had the phone in his hand and he said, I'm on the phone to my mum, and he said, She's at Bunning and she's buying the stuff, so I can fix the holes in the wall at home. And and just I think something really hit me then and said, This this is working. You know what I mean? This is giving practical experience to young people in that case, and and that was a that was a group of people with disabilities. So, um, and we heard later on that the mum was just stoked, over the moon, you know what I mean, that that that her child could come home. Um, and and I think it it's all around these myths that we're gonna talk about, but these myths around disability are like, oh yeah, well, you know, you'll probably get something, you know what I mean? Um, and that's not true, you know what I mean? That the capabilities of people with disabilities is is massive.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it was a great great story that showed that the the programs work.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and and that's a really great um example of of some some good success.
Safety Training And Support Systems
SPEAKER_01But it's not just sort of giving people a taste of the skills, is it, through the program. There's also uh some basic safety training and the same thing. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, program, as you can see on my shirt, Zero Harm. We're incredibly focused on safety. We fully believe that most um accidents can be avoided with good policy and procedure. And um so, yeah, we have safety talks, um, we have um the apprenticeship guys, in this case MEGT, come in, and they they're the people that are sit between the the um the government and uh apprentice signing the contracts for apprenticeships. So she explains how that all works. We really push ASBAS in school. ASBAs is an um incredible opportunity where you know the the young person can get some schooling um but still have a bit of a job and get out there and learn learn learn different things in a trade. Um but in this case, yeah, very focused on safety. We're even we even have mental health come out because program's very focused on providing supports and having people understand that they don't have to do it on their own. You know what I mean? They don't have to um take any bullying or stuff that they can't deal with, and so we show them pathways where they can ask for help and really stress that, yeah, this is not something you have to do on your own.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And now, how long's the program been going for?
SPEAKER_00So this program I'd say probably four years, around about four years, in different ways. Like we're very much about we didn't want to create a structure that was rigid. We wanted it to make sure that it fitted the community. We wanted to make sure it fitted, so if it's if it's for disability, if it's for indigenous, we want to make sure that works for them as well. So so indifferent, but it's been around about four years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, fantastic. And what have you seen in terms of outcomes for both, I guess, for participants, but also for employers?
SPEAKER_00I think I think great outcomes, like a lot of the time, um, participants will have work experience where they can choose to go. Obviously, with with that many contractors, about 900 contractors on on that particular contract, um, there's a lot of opportunities. Um, and like I said before, we're sort of breaking down that risk a little bit because we're sort of vetting them opposed to them trying to go out and find someone. Um, so great outcomes, and and I think we we're trying to complete the circle a bit, the the circle of life, in the sense that you need young people coming up, you need to have them inspired to go into the building industry if that's what they choose to do. And then you've got all the contractors there that want employees. So we're trying to complete that that that sort of circle. Yeah.
Connecting Employers To New Talent
SPEAKER_01Because there's some challenges at the moment, right, in terms of attracting and retaining talent in the trades and indeed across the board, I guess. But um, you know, do you do how do you how do you see the program contributing to that? Obviously, you're sort of bringing a a sort of a group of people through who might um sort of be able to step into the industry. Um, but is there is it is it a long-term um career that people are building as a result of the program, do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the more opportunities you can give, the more connections that we create at program, which is my job, um, I think the better outcomes, the more people you work with. Um, and this is what we say to the to the participants as well like life works like our um relationship now, um life works building connections, you know. And I'll always say to the participants, like, you now know me, and if you don't remember me, you know them, so and they know me. So it's about trying to connect as many people together, you're gonna get way better outcomes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So do you think employers are becoming more open to non-traditional pathways into the trades?
SPEAKER_00I think they are. A lot of contractors are obviously concerned around the safety. Um programs are very good at um giving opportunities to the contractors in order to um change that lens. So, for example, we have a uh a morning barbecue for the contractors every two months. And the last one we had the personnel group come along and talk about what opportunities there are in employing people with disabilities, um, what services are there, like job access, um to try and break down those myths and those barriers in a relaxed way. Because it's interesting, like sometimes I've asked, been asked um, you know, by organizations, oh, could we get in front of all your contractors? And I say politely, well, it's not gonna happen. We've got to in reality, it's not gonna happen. So we try and facilitate it where possible to show the contractors and to try and change that lens of you know, employing a diverse workforce needs to become part of your business plan, not an add-on to your business plan. You know what I mean? It's it it needs to be part of it, and I think I think a lot of things have have changed over the years. Um like people used to be in employment for a long time, like it was quite common that someone would be at a business their whole life, you know what I mean, that'd go out and have a retirement party, and that is extremely different now. Um great little story. I went to a guy's um retirement the other day, a Down syndrome guy who's worked at a supermarket all his life, right? 33 years. Wow, and I that was it. It was like, oh my god, wow. Um, and and and the difference he's made there. And it was interesting because the amount of owners that's actually owned that particular supermarket, it was Franklin's, it was it was Irvine's, it was all different. Um, and he's seen all through that. And I'm thinking the amount of people that he would know and people that would know him. Um and I think that that that's but that doesn't necessarily happen as much, although you know the the statistics show that people with disabilities are probably actually more loyal in your business. So, and that's what businesses want.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Because when people leave, they they're taking everything with them. Like that's that's a big cost.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you think do you think bringing on a more diverse workforce um helps drive business success? 100%.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The numbers are there, the statistics are there that the more diverse workforce you have with different cultures, different abilities, um you will get better outcomes. It's more rich outcomes because everyone's you know, you're taking in everyone's perspective. It's like when you've got a mate and you really, you really love the sort of the same things, you're actually not challenged. Um so you want that diverse workforce, you want the differences in in the people that you're hiring, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So sometimes employers can be a bit reluctant to take on people with disabilities, and it's great that you're doing some work to help with your contractors to help kind of create a pathway
Disability Hiring Myths And JobAccess
SPEAKER_01in. But what do you think are some of the common misconceptions that employers might have about hiring people with disability?
SPEAKER_00The yeah, so the cost. The cost's a big one. So, um, like I've sort of heard before, oh Greg, you know what you're doing and and and everything, and it um, but I've I'm running a business and you know I can't put in a ramp or I can't do this, or it's too much adjustments. And I think from from what we've sort of seen, it it ends up actually not being there's either no cost because of job access and and and the what the government funds is amazing.
SPEAKER_01Um and for for people who may not be familiar with that, just tell us a little bit about that. So job access will come in and um help pay for adjustments in your office space potentially.
SPEAKER_00And cover it to a certain extent. They're not going to build another building, but they will definitely come in and look at what's appropriate and and put that into place. And I think that getting that message out would change a lot of people's minds. Um the other side, there's a lot of support. And it's funny you sort of think, oh, I'd actually like support with some of my employees that don't have a disability, but that's not an option, you know what I mean? So I think employers knowing that there's supports there, because I think sometimes they get scared of like, oh, I don't know if I could manage that, or say if there's someone with that's autistic and and um doesn't cope with something particularly well, there's so many different supports out there. Um, you know, there's training available for management, so um they can manage behaviors better. Um to just get in there and do it because there is supports available.
SPEAKER_01And and in terms of the practical steps that employees can take, um what what do you think the the most sort of the biggest immediate practical steps employers can take to be more inclusive without overcomplicating things might be?
SPEAKER_00It's it's hard because I I think the first thing that comes to mind is is change the lens. You know, like I think we've we've been so conditioned over the years with all these myths and oh, like no, it's not gonna work, or I can't do it, or um, I think one of the big things that's hit me is is forget the nine to five. Like it, like this, this people with disabilities that are not gonna be able to work all week. It's not gonna work. They're gonna be happy to work two days, or um sometimes they need a bit of a break. So if you did a Monday and a Wednesday, two, so to rethink that and say, hey, you know, I've got John and he's doing all of that, but hang on a sec, I could take that function, that function, that function off them and actually get them to do something else that I need done, and we could employ someone with a disability that would be stoked to do that. Um, and I'm not saying that it's any less, like there's still proper tasks, and you're giving you these people a go, um, which changes lives, you know what I mean? And we need to see them as not as uh separate to society, like uh give them an opportunity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really um, really inspiring uh view of the world there. Do you think from from the expectations of um employees, or particularly I guess employees of people disabil with disability, um are expectations changing from in terms of what they're looking for from their employers?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. I think I think with this um, you know, there's not necessarily the loyalty, like people are coming and going a lot more, and I think people literally want companies that care for them and care for the community. Um and programs so big on um getting out in the community um and and um doing different things in your local community. Like some people think, oh, you know, you're a massive company, you're national, international. You know, but I live in Bel Connet and I I want to sort support my local community. And my colleague who's in um Sydney, she's the same. She wants to support her local community. Program's very much about we want to support community where we work and live. So, yeah, big difference.
SPEAKER_01So,
Next Steps For Employers And Candidates
SPEAKER_01for employers listening to this, you know, employers from our local community, I guess, I mean, what's the one practical thing they could do tomorrow to engage with programs like the Pathways to Construction program?
SPEAKER_00Okay, first of all, first of all, they need to contact us because we're going to have 20 people that that are going to be ready for the construction industry. They're going to have their PPE, they're going to have their white card, asbestos and silica, they're going to have some hands-on experience so they understand that that is something they want to go into. So we're sort of, in a way, taking a bit of that risk away that you've got people that are ready to go. Yeah, to get in contact with us and give these people a go and give them some meaningful work in their in their workplace. But like I said before, I think it's it's really around changing the lens. Um, it needs to be uh become business as normal, not an add-on. Well, yeah, we support someone with a disability. Um yeah, and that's that's not easy, but that's what will change in society if we change that lens. I think that'll make a big difference.
SPEAKER_01And I guess finally, Greg, just to uh sort of round this out, if you were an employee listening to this, or perhaps a person with a disability who was considering a trade pathway, what would your advice be to them?
SPEAKER_00Just start. You know what I mean? Just it sometimes it's difficult, especially if you've been knocked back a few times, but just start. Like so, um like I always have this philosophy of um, you know, if you're gonna go for a job, get an Excel spreadsheet and start putting on there who you've contacted. And don't worry about the no's, you're gonna get no's. That's all part of it. Don't worry about it. I love the saying, when they say no, you say next. You know what I mean? It's just it's empowering, especially when someone says no to you and you just say that to yourself. So then you go and make another phone call. You know what I mean? Or or contact um contact program or your local employment agency and don't give up. Like if you go to an employment agency and it doesn't feel right, go to another one. You know what I mean? You've got to find someone that's gonna understand you, work with you, and and sort of in a way fight for you. Um so yeah, just go for it. And and and that's in whatever area that you're interested in. I mean, even with this these programs that we run, we're very much about if you don't like it, that's still a win. You've you've found out that that's not for you. Hopefully they don't. Usually with our programs, they're quite inspired. Um, but that's good. Then then we're we're gonna still connect you with employment agencies and we're gonna work out so we break down those barriers as well. Um, and and they'll realize, oh, actually, these employment agencies aren't that bad. I can go and work with them. So I think that's what all of our programs are about is breaking down those barriers, um, making a difference in the communities we work. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Um, some great advice there, I think, Greg, for both employers and potential employees. So thank you so much for sharing your insights uh with us today. Um, this has been the Canberra Business Podcast. I'm Greg Harford, your host from the Canberra Business Chamber, and I have been talking to Greg Lackey, the social inclusion manager for Prograbbed here in the ACT. Greg, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Uh don't forget to keep an eye out on our podcast. Uh, follow us on your favourite podcast platform for future episodes of the Canberra Business Podcast. I'll catch you next time.