The Unexpected Lessons Behind Secrets of the C-Suite

Season 4 is here, and to celebrate, Susan and Juliet are looking back on two years of conversations that have reshaped how they think about leadership.

From unexpected lessons to unforgettable guests, they reflect on the quality that kept surfacing in some of their most impactful conversations, why so many leaders underestimate the value of their own stories, and how the podcast has evolved in ways they never anticipated.

Plus, an exciting behind-the-scenes look at what's changing this season and where they hope the podcast goes next.

** Enjoyed this episode? We’d love to hear your thoughts. Subscribe and leave us a 5-star rating to help others discover the podcast. We’re so grateful to each and every listener!

——— Connect with your hosts ———

Email Juliet: julietclothier@gmail.com
LinkedIn / Instagram / www.julietclothier.com

Email Susan: susan@susanasutherland.com
LinkedIn / Instagram / www.susanasutherland.com

Secrets of the C-Suite is both a podcast AND a leadership consultancy. Learn more about our offerings.

Transcript

Juliet 0:04

Secrets of the C-Suite, the podcast, is for anyone interested in leadership and the wins, losses, and lessons of being an executive. We are two women who have successfully navigated C-suite roles and are sharing our experiences. We will be bringing on guests to tell their stories and wanna spark honest conversation and discussion, which may include swearing and lots of laughs. Join us on this adventure.

Susan 0:34

Welcome to another episode, and by the way, another season of Secrets of the C-Suite, the podcast. I'm Susan Sutherland, and I'm here with my co-host Juliet Clothier and we're pleased to be starting season four with this duo episode. Good morning, Juliet.

Juliet 0:54

Hey, Susan.

Susan 0:56

Kind of exciting about season four, huh?

Juliet (2) 0:58

I know, I know. It's so crazy. We were kinda talking before we started recording, and- Season four, it's been exactly two years since we recorded our first episode. We had no idea what we were doing. We still don't, pretty much, but, um, but we're working on it. It's a, it's a definitely a work in progress. But just, we, you know, w- how great- Yeah that we're doing this in season four, and I still, we'll talk a little bit more about this later, but I still, you know, will mention to people at work or, you know, oh, and I have a podcast. 'Cause I kind of forget sometimes that that's part of my identity these days. Yeah. And that it has been for two years, but I never, I didn't really talk about it a lot at the beginning, 'cause, like, I don't know how many people I really want to listen to it just in case- it's not very good. So that, a couple weeks ago, I mentioned to somebody that works for me, I said, "Oh, yeah, and I have a podcast." "You do?" You know, so then he came to me, and he was like, "Oh, I listened to the first two episodes," and I'm like, "Ugh, okay." And he goes, "It's really good." I think people are surprised that it's good. Which is funny. But anyway, it's really exciting to be in season four. I'm really happy. It

Susan 2:21

is. It is. I wanna sh- I wanna reflect a little bit with you, because I know that when we first started, we weren't sure... I mean, we're still not, and w- maybe we can talk about it now. W- we started with a, with an idea for the podcast. Yeah. And then we very quickly realized, oh, this means that both of us have to show up with our mature leader voice just so that we sound good, and that try to, trying to complete a full sentence sometimes is a bit of a challenge. Yeah. Because we're, because we're not scripted, right? Right. We're showing up and we're talking. So I think of that, you know, in the early days, that was our real challenge, was just being willing to show up and talk and kinda let go of the, "Oh my God, I'm being recorded, and people are gonna hear me" kind of- Mm-hmm noise in our head. And I, I don't know about you, but I think I'm well past that. Uh, she says, having needed to record the intro four times this morning. Um, but that's just about waking up, I think. The other thing I think is really interesting is that we came into it with absolutely the right mindset. We came in with the spirit of adventure and fun. Like, wouldn't it be so cool if we invited people on to talk to us about who they are and how they do leadership? And it's been so fun. We're so curious.

Juliet (2) 3:41

Yeah, yeah.

Susan 3:41

I think that's what makes our podcast interesting, is that we follow the breadcrumbs. Like, we have some questions we do like to ask all the guests, but we follow the breadcrumbs with the guest.

Juliet (2) 3:52

Right.

Susan 3:52

And I know that I've really appreciated our guests being delighted and surprised. Like, "That was so fun." Right. "And I didn't realize I had a story to tell." But we were able to ask questions and support them in, you know, creating an environment on the podcast where they felt really good about sharing themselves. That, to me, is like, I don't know, that's an 11 out of 10. That hits the ball out of the park.

Juliet (2) 4:16

I 100% agree, and I think that that, that brings the joy for us when our guests come back to us and are like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't realize that I had an interesting story." And that their hesitation of coming on the podcast is 'cause they don't think they have an interesting story. And every story is unique, but there's always that, I feel like there is that through line, that thread of- Mm-hmm them having something to share, and that they do have experience that other people can learn from. And I think that that's also been great to watch. You know, however people use their episode, some people share it and are, are very, um, out there in social media with it, and other people, you know, they, they share it with their friends and they, "Oh, my mom listened to it, and it was- she was so proud of me." And I'm just, I love that. I love that.

Susan 5:14

Yeah. And one of the things that we have tried to do s- for our listeners is have a theme for our seasons, and I think we've kind of decided not to worry so much about that. We end up looking for the themes, uh, in the recap of the season at the end of each season. But walking into a season saying, "We're gonna invite only this kind of person at this kind of position with this kind of experience," has limited us, and I think we've, we've been wise to invite people who we think are really interesting. Yeah. Who have leadership either in their job title or by absolute reflection of what they do in the world. Mm-hmm. Whether they call themselves a leader, whether they have that title or not, and I think that's given us, and has brought us really interesting guests.

Juliet (2) 6:03

Most definitely. And this season, we, we definitely have, um, quite a few on deck that I think are- There's a lot of survivor in, in story, in our stories, at least at the beginning of this season. I think we have a definitely a theme of people who've, you know, had, had challenges just in general in life, and, um, it's so cool that they're willing to share it. So I love- Yeah that part of it. Yeah.

Susan 6:33

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 6:33

Yeah. I

Susan 6:33

also think about the timing, which is, I think for most of us, the COVID experience, the lockdown experience, the having friends and family who were very ill or died-

Juliet (2) 6:45

Mm-hmm

Susan 6:45

really ha- really shaped a lot of people's experience, especially entrepreneurs. Like, those were hard years-

Juliet (2) 6:53

Yeah.

Susan 6:53

Yeah for people who were trying to, to grow their business or establish a business, and I keep thinking that that really wasn't so long ago.

Juliet (2) 7:01

I know.

Susan 7:02

Um, and it, it definitely... I mean, we started our podcast sort of, I don't know, not, not in reaction to, but out, out of that There was a lot going on, let's put it that way. There were a lot of inputs as to why we, why we started the podcast. Yeah. Um, so I thought it would be fun today, um, Juliet, it, is to take a minute and I think maybe we've done this, but to celebrate, to celebrate that we're on season four. Mm-hmm. Our producer, Brian Clothier, who's just a, a mensch and a really outstanding professional, keeps reminding us that most people don't get to season two, let alone season four. Um, which of course we don't know. What do we know? We just keep doing this thing.

Juliet (2) 7:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan 7:44

But I'm really proud of us. Um, and I thought it would be really fun if we talked a little bit about the evolution of the podcast. Mm-hmm. And perhaps more importantly, what are we learning? Yeah. What are we as podcasters learning by having the podcast, um, and what are we learning with, from the people that we talk to? How, how is our... W- how has that informed our leadership and our, I want to call it growth edge, our path forward?

Juliet (2) 8:11

Yeah.

Susan 8:13

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 8:14

I love it. Well, you know, we started the first... So back up a bit.

Susan 8:19

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 8:21

Brian is the reason we started this podcast. It's his fault.

Susan 8:25

Yep.

Juliet (2) 8:25

But you had already had a podcast.

Susan 8:28

Yes.

Juliet (2) 8:28

And plug your podcast, which I know you don't, not doing anymore, but it's still out there.

Susan 8:33

It's still out there. I have it on, um, you can, you can find the old episodes. It's called All The Way Alive. Um, and it was sort of a personal, more personal than professional leadership or coachee. Um, it was really about wanting to talk to people who were trying to bring their essence, um, to the world, who were trying to experience more joy, trying to live fully in the moment. And of course, none of us do that all the time, but, um, I really wanted to talk to people who I felt showed up fully. Yeah. And that was, that was my personal passion project, and then when we started this po- podcast, I was like, "I can't do both." I'm just, you know, there were a lot of things I wasn't doing very well. And so I just- Yeah put it out there. So it's still available, I just haven't recorded any new episodes, uh-

Juliet (2) 9:22

What's it called?

Susan 9:23

All The Way Alive.

Juliet (2) 9:24

Oh, good. Yeah.

Susan 9:26

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 9:26

So I was on your podcast, which gave me a little more confidence about podcasts, which was good. But what had happened- Was I was starting a business and trying to figure out how to market my business, and Brian said, "You should have a podcast." And then we... I'm just reminding us of how we- Yeah kind of started the conversation. And so we, we had been tossing around an idea for a book, which I still think is, is could be a, a good thing, 'cause we could take some of this, these stories that we've, we've been getting out of the podcast. But anyway, and then, uh, we turned that idea into a podcast, which was great. And so our idea was to start and just talk with people in the C-suite, calling it Secrets of the C-Suite, of course. So f- season one was really about, uh, those people in the C-suite, CEOs, CFOs, COOs, and those were great conversations and really, um, I think, uh, what I learned the most out of that is that people often don't know that they are a good leader- Mm and are more hesitant to, to call themselves a leader or think that they have something to inspire other people. And I think out of that, we had a few people who were clearly already- Mm there. But we definitely had a couple people who were kinda hesitant and like, "Well, you know, it wasn't, it was an accident," and you know, or, "I, I just," said, "ended up here," and a lot of people who just said yes to things, and that's how they ended up where they were. So I think that was kind of a cool thread- Yes in season one.

Susan 11:15

Yeah. The, the thing that strikes me about that is, um, a belief I have about- Really great leaders is they typically have a streak of humility- Mm-hmm and a streak of, I don't wanna call it self-doubt, although there's the doubt in there. They stop and they ask themselves these reflective questions about how are they doing. Um, so none of this, I, I, you know, tech bro leadership, huh, you know, damn the torpedoes, let's go. That, that really great leaders don't walk around saying, "I'm a really great leader." Right. They're always leaving a little room to say, "What could be better?" Or, "How am I coming through in this moment? What's guiding me so that I'm guiding my people as best I can?" And that, that I think is really interesting, 'cause you have leaders that we, you know, we see. I'm thinking of, um, I'm gonna name him, and we can edit this out if need be, your boss, Mark-

Juliet (2) 12:16

Cederborg

Susan 12:16

Cederborg. Okay. Um, so I'm thinking of someone like Mark Cederborg who truly said that his leadership path was an accident. Mm-hmm. And yet he has charisma and interpersonal skills to r- he just embodies the kind of leadership, particularly in, in that industry. And he always carried that sort of, am I doing the right thing in the right way?

Juliet (2) 12:40

Yeah.

Susan 12:41

Yeah. And that's part of what I think is a, is a, a m- a really important ingredient in really outstanding leaders. So of course you get those people who just reflect that part of their leadership- Yeah journey more so than the, "Oh, and I got the company to go from this to this," or, "I got these people to do X, Y, or Z." Um, so anyway- Yeah I just, I just think it's, it's interesting that for me that's a key component of leadership is that introspection, that reflection, and the not taking yourself so seriously.

Juliet (2) 13:09

It's true. Yeah. And I think a lot of those leaders that we talked to in the first season were heavily influenced by the COVID years, because we were just, you know, f- we were just coming out of, of COVID, um, being a crisis. It's still happening out there, but it's a crisis. So then we, in season two, because we were pretty disappointed by the election and- Oh realizing we had taken a few steps back, we wanted to focus on women in leadership, women leaders. And so that was fun and Exciting. Learned a lot about women figuring out how to navigate leadership- Mm-hmm with all of the blatant misogyny going on and, and, you know, the, the roadblocks that are put up just organically for women, and especially women of color. And so that was, that was just, it was so timely, and I just felt like it was honoring women and how it is hard to be a woman leader. Mm-hmm. Even in industries like nonprofits, where I have been most of my career, there's still just roadblocks, and it's, it's, um, it's really unfortunate. So anyway, that was good, though. It was a good- Yeah timely thing. But, um,

Susan 14:40

and then we- And I think for s- Go ahead season three and season four we've sort of collapsed the, we, we, we've, we've let the walls around who we're inviting on- Yeah kind of collapse. Yeah.

Juliet (2) 14:49

Yeah, yeah.

Susan 14:50

Um, what, what do you think, I'm gonna ask you a question, what do you think is the primary objective, if you will, for expanding, or not having a themed-based season? Let's put it that way.

Juliet (2) 15:06

What was it, uh, Stuart Smalley on, um, in, what is the movie called? Stuart Saves His Family? I think it was Stuart Saves His Family. Anyway, Stuart Smalley had a show, and the last, he had all these episodes and each one had a theme, and it was all about recovery, and then the last one was, "I don't need to have a, a theme." That was his theme.

Susan 15:33

So we're Stuart Smalley in this

Juliet (2) 15:35

story. We're Stuart Smalley right now. We don't need to have a theme. But I think, I think we, we, what we are realizing is that leadership stories aren't just in traditional leadership roles. Right. So we, we've got a lot of entrepreneurs. We have a lot of people lined up who, you know, there's adversity, they've overcome something to get to where they are. These are not necessarily people who are bringing in six figures. As we kind of weave our way through our networks of people is like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm, we're gonna have somebody on in a few weeks that I have been friends with for 30 years, and kind of didn't think about when we first started this podcast, and realized the work that he's doing is so interesting, and it's all volunteer.

Susan 16:31

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 16:31

But he's really created this world of, I'm just gonna work on things that are really important to me, and doesn't take no for an answer. So I'm looking forward to that conversation. Yeah.

Susan 16:44

You know, one of the things that, that I think I've learned as we've expanded sort of who we have on and gotten a little bit away from hierarchy and, and official C-suite corporate titles is, and I think it's part of what empowers and is a passion of mine for my, my coaching practice, which is- The people who, to me, are so interesting are people who are following their values or who are following some- something about the way that they've interacted with the world, and that has led them to create a business or led them into the kind of work that they do. There's that intersection between who they are as in their life and how they're approaching their leadership, which isn't always the case in, in a corporate structure. Um, sometimes, you know, as you and I have discussed, you end up in those positions by accident, where you get- Yeah promoted. And, and you learn to love those things, but the industry might be you just ended up there. Mm-hmm. And so the thing that I find really fascinating is how people take and listen to the... Some call about, "This is interesting to me. I think there's a place for this. It's important," and they weave together a business. I'm thinking specifically of our most recent guest, um, Katie, who runs a flower business. Mm-hmm. And she started that from a, "I need to be with my people. I need to bring... I need to have my hands in the dirt." Like, there were three or four themes that caused her to now have established a business, and it started just by her listening to what her needs and wants were.

Juliet (2) 18:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan 18:31

I think that's so fascinating.

Juliet (2) 18:33

It is. It is. And I think as we are evolving as humans and aging- Mm gracefully and beautifully as we are, that we are finding more people in our community that are listening to themselves. And, and- Not listening to the naysayers and, and trusting their instincts, so that's pretty exciting.

Susan 19:01

Yeah. I'm, I'm interested in your, you, um, calling out the age factor, and I'd, I'd just like to pause there for a second and maybe explore that a little bit. I think it's absolutely true that especially people who have done sort of the corporate thing, left that, and are now doing their passion jobs- Yeah or their volunteer work that they, that really br- bring their heart and soul to. There is, there is an evolution for people. They get to a point where it's more about meaning and connection than it is about hierarchy on the ladder or... I mean, we all need money, so it's not necessarily not about the money. But, um, what drives people is more that curiosity and passion for what they're doing than necessarily a more cognitive approach to, to their career.

Juliet (2) 19:52

Yeah, and a more traditional in-the-box- Yeah kind of thing. You know, I think... And I, I'm trying not to live in this world of like I wish I knew this 20 years ago- Yeah. kind of thing, because it's really easy to do. And just really live in the wow, I am so grateful that I have this awareness now that is different. It's such a gift. And-

Susan 20:20

Yeah

Juliet (2) 20:21

I'm not a huge, you know, blessing person, but I do feel like there's something magical happening in the Venn diagram of-

Susan 20:31

Mm-hmm

Juliet (2) 20:32

learning and, and aging all at the same time. So anyway. Yeah, agreed. Lovely.

Susan 20:37

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 20:37

I have a question for you.

Susan 20:38

Yeah.

Juliet (2) 20:39

What are your wishes for our Season 4

Susan 20:42

podcast? Well, you and I have, um, had a sort of short list of things we wanted to, quote, "tighten up" over the seasons that we've done them. And I think for season four, this isn't a wish, I'm excited about it, and then I'll talk about, you know, the aspirational piece. We have a, we have an assistant. We have someone who's helping us get organized and stay organized. We still have Brian, which to me is just a miracle. Mm-hmm. Um, our producer Brian. And we're better, I think, at doing some of the admin tracking and trying to keep an eye on where the various pieces are. So that's something that I, I think has been important and that we've sort of got, we've got going. That can still improve. That can get more, more organized. My wish is... Actually, I raised this with you just as an idea, is taking our podcast and putting it on YouTube- Mm-hmm which means also having the video associated with it. And only because there are a lot of people in this world, I am not one of those people, I will absolutely say that out loud first, who likes to watch and listen. Yeah. I don't. I like to take my earbuds with me and go for a walk and listen.

Juliet (2) 21:57

Yeah, yeah.

Susan 21:57

Almost never really wanna watch the video. I don't like it on Instagram. I don't like it on LinkedIn. Like- Mm-hmm but having said that, my personal preference aside, there's an audience out there that really likes to look at things on YouTube, and there's a couple reasons. One is people can watch us and find us on YouTube, so yay for that. Um, the flip side is, is if you get so many watch hours, then you get monetized. Yeah. And that wouldn't be a bad thing. I don't know-

Juliet (2) 22:24

Eh, it would be

Susan 22:24

kind of how much, but, um, I'd rather do that than have ads.

Juliet (2) 22:29

Yeah. Yeah, that's

Susan 22:30

true. We, we never, we're, we're not... We're doing this out of the, out of our pockets, to the extent- Yeah we have expenses. We do have expenses. What am I saying?

Juliet (2) 22:38

Um- Yeah, we do.

Susan 22:40

So that's, that's an aspiration for us. And I think the other thing is I would like, I would like me to be bolder about my asks. Mm-hmm. There, there are people who I either subscribe to on Substack, or I've seen them on Instagram and admire who they are, and I'm, I'm shy to reach out and say, "I have a podcast. Would you come on?" Yeah.

Juliet (2) 23:02

Yeah. Um,

Susan 23:03

so I would like, I would like that for myself. I'd like to be a little braver about asking some people who I'm just inspired to ask, and, like, what am I waiting for?

Juliet (2) 23:13

Right. Right.

Susan 23:14

Yeah. So those are my wishes for us. Sure. What about you?

Juliet (2) 23:20

I think it's, I think similar to what you were saying, expanding the asks of our guests and, you know, being a little bolder and not like, "Oh, why would they wanna be on it?" Like, it's, that's, that's all part of the things that we're learning from leaders, right? If you- Yeah if you don't ask, you're definitely not- gonna get it. So it's one of those things where I feel like it's a little circular where we're, you know, we've been like hesitant to, to be bold, and this is what we're trying to bring out in the, our guests. So I think there's a little bit of a, um, a little bit of a, what's that word? You know. Um-

Susan 24:03

Take your own medicine?

Juliet (2) 24:05

Hypocritical.

Susan 24:06

Yes.

Juliet (2) 24:07

So anyway. Back

Susan 24:08

to.

Juliet (2) 24:08

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think that, and I think also- I, I think getting better, and, you know, our assistant is certainly helping, but scheduling-

Susan 24:21

Mm

Juliet (2) 24:21

I, I wish we could have more flexibility in our time. You know, I'm very constrained by my day job. You are six months out of the year, or seven months or whatever, in a different country. And I'm saying it's your fault, not my fault, because I, you know-

Susan 24:39

I, I so hear that. Okay, good. And I accept that responsibility.

Juliet (2) 24:42

Okay, good. Good, good. I wanted to make sure we were both on the same page.

Susan 24:48

Yeah. It's fun, so. And your constraints, you know, scheduling for 0-dark-30 Pacific Time works for me when I'm on the other side of the world. I know. I'm, I'm not sure it works for our guests to- No join us on the podcast at 6:00 AM, but. No, that's why we're

Juliet (2) 25:00

trying to get more East Coast people. Anyway, so, you know, I think it's just getting better at scheduling. There's opportunities to f- to fix that and, and be better about that. You know, if we're gonna go on YouTube, that's a whole nother... That's gonna be some brain work for me, and, and, you know, making sure that I'm camera ready is a little, little tricky, so. Anyway, yeah, so I'm excited about season four. I think that one thing that we've changed that will, that you'll hear, to our very faithful listeners, uh, we're starting a post-session banter. So at the beginning of our episodes, we try to talk about something that's interesting to us in the moment, we have our guest, and then usually we're all saying goodbye at the same time. And now we're gonna say goodbye to our guest, and then Susan and I will continue talking about the guest and our experience. Was we realized we're gonna lose that after we finish recording. You know, we do the editing and then it gets released, but we don't really talk about how much we enjoyed the conversation and what we enjoyed out of it. So we're hoping that inspires people and gets people to think about what they've learned in that episode as well. Good. And so that's kinda fun.

Susan 26:17

Yeah. I wanna share the inspiration for that. So, um, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, the actor and- Yeah comedian, has her podcast called Wiser Than Me, where she interviews older, wiser women.

Juliet (2) 26:29

Yeah, I love

Susan 26:30

that. And she calls her mom at the end of each- Mm conversation, and kinda chats with her mom about what she loved about the guest. So it's sort of one-sided. Yeah. But I loved that, and I think you

Juliet (2) 26:40

do

Susan 26:41

too. Me too. And so we're like, you know what? We can, we're not gonna call our moms. We can call each other- Yeah, yeah um, virtually, and kinda have a chat about who we just talked to and what was so great about it. Um- Yeah just a really nice informal, but also insightful way to, to wrap up. Um, the other thing we realized is that when we do our season recap at the end, we're so far from our recordings, we've lost some of the juice that came out of that- Of, of those individual recordings, and that juice is there in these post-interview chats. So I think it's a good thing. We'll see. Listeners, let us know what you think about that-

Juliet (2) 27:18

Yeah. We'd love to hear from

Susan 27:19

you in addition to season four.

Juliet (2) 27:21

And if anybody out there is interested in becoming a guest or has ideas for guests, please, please reach out to us. Uh, in the show notes, there's all the contact information. So please do that because, uh, you know, again, we wanna expand our guest list and who we bring on, and I'm sure you have people in your lives that have inspired you in different ways. It doesn't have to be a person in the C-suite. If you have ideas for guests, if you have ideas for topics that Susan and I could talk about in our duos, because we will continue to do those as well, please let us know. We like hearing from you.

Susan 28:02

And with that, this has been another episode of Secrets of the C-Suite, the podcast. This is episode one of season four. Yay. And in two weeks there'll be another episode. Thanks for joining us. Please leave us a review. We'd love to reach more people, and if you give us a five-star review and maybe offer a comment of how much you've enjoyed this, other people can find us. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. We'll see you in a few weeks.

Juliet (2) 28:31

We're so glad you've joined us for this episode of Secrets of the C-Suite, the podcast. We'll be back with another episode in

Susan 28:38

two weeks. In the meantime, please tell your friends and coworkers about us, and be sure to follow, subscribe, and give us a five-star rating if you enjoyed listening. Secrets of the C-Suite is produced by Juliet Clothier, Susan Sutherland, and Brian Clothier. Original music is by Brian Clothier, and the podcast is inspired by leaders like you.