Ep 14: Letting Go of Being Right: Curiosity, Leadership & Growth with Dr. Mrunal Shah

In this episode of The PLA Podcast, host Dr. Stephanie Costa welcomes PLA faculty member, physician leader, and healthcare coach Dr. Mrunal Shah for a thoughtful conversation about leadership, organizational culture, and the evolving challenges facing physicians today.

Drawing on years of experience working with physicians across Central Ohio, Dr. Shah shares insights into the changing healthcare landscape, including increasing administrative burdens, shifting employment models, and the growing need for physicians to lead in new ways. Together, they explore why leadership requires a different skill set than clinical excellence, and how qualities such as curiosity, humility, and collaboration can help physicians navigate complexity more effectively.

Whether you are leading a team, caring for patients, or simply navigating life's challenges, this conversation offers an invitation to practice curiosity, embrace continuous growth, and discover the relief that comes from leading with openness rather than certainty.

Enrollment is open for the next class of the Physicians Leadership Academy, which begins in September 2026. Information and the application may be found at https://www.physiciansleadershipacademy.org/placlassof20262027.
 
Learn more about Dr. Mrunal Shah and Thrive Healthcare Coaching & Consulting: https://thrivehcc.com/

Registration is open for the next class of the Physicians Leadership Academy at the Columbus Medical Association. Designed FOR physicians BY physicians and led by globally recognized faculty and coaches, PLA is a transformational, research-backed program to help you build the skills to thrive in today’s ever-evolving healthcare landscape. Learn more at physiciansleadershipacademy.org.

Produced by the Columbus Medical Association

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Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated and may contain errors.

Welcome to the PLA podcast. This podcast was created to help graduates of the Physicians Leadership Academy at the Columbus Medical Association stay connected to the PLA teachings, mindset, and community. If you're not familiar with the Physicians Leadership Academy, we're so glad you're here and appreciate your curiosity.

Please enjoy the learning today. More information about the PLA can be found at our website, physiciansleadershipacademy.org. Applications for the next session of PLA commencing September of 2026 are available on our website as well. I'm Stephanie Costa, director of alumni programming at the PLA, and today I'm excited to have a conversation with Dr.

Mrunal Shah. As a member of the PLA faculty, Dr. Shah shares his expertise in the area of organizational culture and culture change. Dr. Shah is also faculty and clinical [00:01:00] assistant professor of family medicine at OhioHealth's Riverside campus and at the Ohio State University. For many years, Dr. Shah has been a prominent figure in the CMA affiliate Physicians Care Connection, serving both as a volunteer clinician and board member.

Dr. Shah is the owner of Thrive Healthcare Coaching and Consulting, where he helps healthcare professionals navigate complex systems, build leadership skills, and manage industry changes. Mrunal, welcome to the PLA podcast. Oh, thank you, Stephanie. I'm honored to be here with you today. Wow. You've spent quite a bit of time the past couple of years talking to physicians in central Ohio to better understand how the CMA could help support physicians, and we're so fortunate to have many, many exceptional physicians in our community.

What are you learning from them as you talk to them? Yeah. You know the biggest thing that I'm noticing, Stephanie, is there's been [00:02:00] quite a shift of employment model. So if we think about what medical practice looked like 10 years, 15, 20 years ago, it would've been 80% independent practices, 20% of physicians were employed by, you know, a larger institution.

Well, that's really shifted. Um, now it's about 75/25. 75% of physicians are employed by a larger model. W- why that matters is that employment solved a lot of problems for a lot of physicians, but I think like anything else, it also introduced new challenges, new things that are different kinds of burdens that physicians have to deal with.

In some ways, physicians wanted to get away from administrative burdens by being employed, and I think they would have described it at the time as being business oriented, running the office contract negotiation, things like that. But what I did find from physicians as I've been spending time with them is that the administrative burdens, even in an employed environment, has been their number one concern.

They spend a lot more time dealing with the administrative overhead than [00:03:00] they are actually working directly with their patients. The other thing I've heard is that there's been, uh, either real or perceived, a loss of autonomy. Autonomy in the sense of what kinds of decisions can you make day-to-day and what kinds of decisions can you make in the practice itself?

It looks different. It's not right, not wrong, just different. And in some ways, there's also been a little bit of an erosion of trust between physicians and, and patients, either because of the change in social media, because of access to information, because of AI, physicians are feeling that strain on their relationships.

I wanna call out one thing that I, I would say was a bit eye-opening for me. It was not that long ago that physician wellbeing and resiliency was really the number one topic of the day. While that is still very important, it has dropped down to being number three or number four. I don't think it's because it's better.

I think it's just been overshadowed by other things that have changed in the healthcare environment Okay, I can't not ask what were number one and number two? [00:04:00] Right. Administrative burdens was actually the number one thing that came up in my physician conversations, and that loss of autonomy and perhaps that erosion of trust with patients- Yep

those were the top things that came up. Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes sense. And, you know, I think when you talk to physicians and you ask them, "Why did you go into medicine?" A lot of times they say, "Because I wanted to make a difference." And you know, I feel like the CMA and the Leadership Academy can help with that.

And an important part of how the CMA and the CM- CMA Foundation supports Central Ohio physicians is through the Physicians Leadership Academy. And one of my favorite parts of the PLA is how physicians use the awareness, skills, and agency that they develop in the PLA to positively impact our community in really diverse ways.

It gives physicians an opportunity to be the healer they hope to be and [00:05:00] also to create impact beyond the exam room. All physicians are leaders, but the PLA is really helping to redefine what it means to be a leader. What are your thoughts on this? I couldn't agree with you more, Stephanie. I think physicians, by nature of what they do and how they've trained and how they've been educated, are natural-born leaders, and they do.

They lead in the office. They lead in the operating room. They'll lead at the MEC, the medical executive committees at their hospitals. They'll lead through peer review. I think employment models, though, have changed what that can look like and how physicians can lead. What I love about the PLA is it is a way to be reminded of how we can still lead today and into the future.

I think what we're learning is that leadership now does look different. Sometimes it's harder, but it's definitely different. One way that I would manifest or characterize that is that I think physicians [00:06:00] always started their leadership journey thinking about how do we take care of the patient first. I think there's still some truth to that, but because of how many things have changed in the way medicine's being practiced, there are a lot of other layers that physicians have to lead through not good, not bad, not right, not wrong, just, it just is, and now there are other layers of administrative, uh, leadership that physicians have to find a way to lead through, and I think that's different Taking that leap from being a leader in the clinical space to leading people in bigger ways can be a big transition, and one that we're not always given the training to navigate.

I, I don't know about you, but in my residency I didn't receive any kind of leadership training- No ... and was really, really eager when the Leadership Academy was developed at the CMA. You know, taking that transition to leading in bigger ways and not being [00:07:00] trained for it, what makes that especially difficult for physicians?

Uh, yeah, this, I see this a lot. What we often see happening is we take our best doctors, the ones that are most productive and the ones that are most efficient in their offices, sometimes with the greatest outcomes and the lowest complication rates, and we say, "Wow, you're a really good doctor, so we want you to lead," somehow insinuating that it's just an extension of what you already do.

I don't think that's true. I think it's different skills. I think physicians are unbelievably capable of it, but I don't think it's the same skills. It's not just an extrapolation of what makes you a high-quality physician or a, a low-complication physician that makes you a great leader. I think you have to learn some new new skills.

I'll, I'll frame it this way. As a doctor taking care of a patient we tend to think about our decisions one patient at a time. The patient in front of you has a unique set of circumstances [00:08:00] that we take into account, and we partner with them on what that decision needs to look like. We lead one patient at a time.

The minute you're asked to take on a leadership position, maybe you're leading the office, maybe you're leading a department, maybe you're leading an entire hospital. In that case, you have to think differently. You almost can't think one patient at a time because those extenuating circumstances become diluted in some way because you have to s- look at the much bigger picture.

Some people really do naturally know how to do that. I think for a lot of physicians, it's really hard to shift from one patient at a time to an entire population or even a health system at how we make decisions. Yeah. And, you know, I know as a physician it never feels good if I feel like I don't know the answer to something.

It's gotta be as equally stressful for physician leaders when that comes up. And I think, too, you know, you [00:09:00] said sometimes people just are suited for a leadership role. I think, too, there, there's certain personality traits that we see in medicine. Um, sometimes these are things like perfectionism or people pleasing or putting others before yourself, and this can make us really good at what we do as a, a clinician.

It can also kinda take a toll on us because of those traits, so we have to have an awareness of them and be able to set some boundaries. But some of those personality traits may not serve us well when we take on these b- bigger leadership roles. What comes up for you when I mention that? Yeah, no, I, this is one of my favorite topics to talk about, so I'm really glad I get to spend time with you on this.

There are a lot of concepts out there, a lot of there's a lot of research material. There's a lot of leadership development topics that [00:10:00] physicians can go through. What's interesting for me is that there's one thing that comes up pretty frequently, pretty commonly. Physicians have always been rewarded for being right.

No one got through medical school by getting the wrong answers . No, no attending ever rewarded you on rounds as a resident or as a med student for being wrong on rounds. Like, that was just never a, an attribute that people wanted to be able to take to, take to the call room with them. But I think what we learned is that the further out or up we go in healthcare, further out from training or the further up we go from direct patient care, I think that's the more...

That's when we learn that we have to change that thinking. We do it, we just don't realize we do it. You know, there's a period of time where when we are in our training, we work really hard to prove to the patient that we are right. We're the doctor in the room. But somewhere along our pathway, we figure out that that's not the point.

They're alread- [00:11:00] they already know that. I already know that. That's why you're here as a patient to work with me because I am that expert in the room. But what would it look like if I started to shift my thinking into helping the patient be right? We do it, we just don't realize that that's the shift in our thinking sometimes.

But what we're doing is we're asking patients, "What are your barriers? What are you concerned about? What could happen if...?" And all of that is intended to help our patient figure out how they can be right, not how we need to emphasize that we're right. As we also evolve then, it allows us to start to shift our thinking.

As we move into this leadership pathway, how does that work when we're working with our colleagues? How does that shift from having to be right to letting the other person be right look? Leaders need help with that, and sometimes that's where either through the PLA, through coaching work, through support for physicians on their leadership journey, we can help them see the benefit of doing that Yeah, it takes a really, um [00:12:00] humble and strong and curious person to be at that level and say, "I don't know," or I wanna know what you know."

And I remember when I was a younger physician and, you know, maybe not as confident, and people didn't know how, you know, experienced I was, and you're just held to this, this lofty ideal of perfection and, then we hold ourselves to that same standard, and if we fall short of that standard of perfection, it can lead to feelings of shame, guilt, low self-worth, and perfection can be really isolating, which isn't good when we're leading people.

Yeah. I- it's a great call-out, Stephanie, and I would say I see this a lot in the physicians that I get to coach. I'll start with a concept, and the concept is [00:13:00] what I'm learning is that the more physicians realize that being right is the opposite of being curious, the more we realize that they are actually in conflict with each other, being right or being curious.

It's kind of hard to be both. And I do see this a lot, uh, especially with physician leaders that are early in their leadership trajectory. But I look at physicians and leaders like I do athletes. You know, if you listen to any high-performing athlete, they're gonna tell you that the difference between an amateur and a professional is whether you practice until you get it wrong...

I'm sorry, whether you practice until you get it right or you practice until you get it wrong. And in that same way, as physicians and as leaders, the more we work towards not needing to be right but actually pushing ourselves into the point where we could actually be wrong, that's what can make us our strongest version of ourselves, and that brings a [00:14:00] different kind of mindset which might, in, in my experience, reduce the amount of guilt or shame or low self-worth that physicians might see because now it isn't about being right.

And in fact, being wrong is okay. Wouldn't it be interesting to ask questions of our patients, our colleagues, our peers, our leaders, to be able to get to the point where we learn something in the process? Yeah. I can't imagine, you know, just as responsibility increases with leadership, to just have that increasing pressure of always being right.

So if a physician leader followed your recommendation and allowed themselves to get curious and to kinda push the boundaries a little bit to the point of them maybe perhaps getting something wrong- there are some things that come up in my mind as to how they might benefit or what they might notice, but what would you [00:15:00] anticipate that they would notice in themselves- Yeah

and in others? I love that. It's a great question, Stephanie. I would say the first thing that they would feel is a sense of relief. Uh, bear with me for a moment. Often you'll be in a conversation where you're gonna find yourself having this internal struggle of, "Why aren't they getting it? I'm trying to explain this, and they're not understanding."

Could be the patient, but more often I'm talking about when we're working with our peers or our colleagues, or imagine working with a chief financial officer for an institution. And you as a physician, obviously you understand your space. The financial person that you're working with understands their space.

You're trying to explain why you're right, and the other person's not getting it. That struggle can be real. That struggle creates conflict. That can be very tormenting. That can be very aggravating. That can be where we sometimes get into guilt, shame, anger, all of those above. So the first thing you might feel by letting go of that need to be right, some relief.

Imagine if you didn't [00:16:00] try to ... What if you stopped trying to prove the CFO that they're wrong? Said differently, that you are right. How does that change your perspective? What if instead of trying to prove that you're right, what if you tried to get curious about why that other person across the table who isn't a doctor, maybe they are right?

What would that look like? How does that free you from having to have that burden of always being the most correct person in the room, the most right person in the room, and instead shift that thinking into, what could I learn from this? It opens up, I would say, more possibilities, uh, solutions that maybe hadn't been considered before, that now instead of one or the other being right, together you're more right.

What would that look like? I have found that creates more possibilities and better solutions in the long run. Yeah. The thing that's coming up for me now, and I'm sure a lot of our PLA alumni that are listening to this y- [00:17:00] you know, in the PLA we teach participatory leadership where, you know, we're leading from a place of curiosity, and we use powerful questions and the art of hosting to create an environment where the perspective and knowledge from everyone are encouraged and valued.

And your example of the CFO, I don't know how many doctors have as much financial training as a CFO. Um, w- why wouldn't we want to include them in the conversation, and just let them, take that area of expertise and b- yeah, I am feeling some relief even as I think about a, a-

hypothetical there. Yeah, so. Love that. So yeah, participatory leadership and, Just feeling, uh, that relief when you bring everyone in the room into the conversation and lend their own insights. There was [00:18:00] something I read recently by Dr. Amna Shabir, um, who introduced a concept called the expectation gap of perfectionism.

So you can imagine that title kinda, piqued my curiosity, and what she means by the expectation gap of perfectionism is that there's a widening gap between our true authentic human selves and the image society expects us to project. And, you know, we were talking earlier about how society expects, something in particular from their healthcare team.

Um, she offers that this, this gap between our true authentic human selves and what society expects is the reason why we feel perpetually and restlessly inadequate. She instead offers us to consider excellencism instead of perfectionism, and I kinda like that [00:19:00] term, um, because it does give us all a little bit of a break.

So pursuing excellence and growth while simultaneously acknowledging our innate humanity. If you look at excellencism versus perfectionism, excellencism is rooted in our values and perfectionism is rooted in fear. How does the concept of excellencism land with you, Mrunal? Ugh, I, I love the concept, and I will just plug I've actually had a chance to work with Dr.

Amna Shabir, and she is an incredible voice for physicians. I- what a high energy, thoughtful, kind leader, and I love her understanding of this concept. It resonates tremendously with me. It's actually the point of view that enables what I think w- we talked about earlier, this idea of curiosity. I blend that with a little bit of humility When we step out of that area where we are [00:20:00] classically trained as physicians, I think we learn more when we are humble and curious.

And imagine if we let go of the need to be perfect or right with the idea of being excellent and constantly growing. I think the other thing that happens as a result of that is it shifts our thinking from imposter thinking to collaborative leadership. Imposter thinking, I'm sure everyone has heard of that, but just this-- It's this idea of I don't even know if I should be in this room.

If I'm having a debate with the CFO, why am I even having this debate with a CFO? And that could go one of two directions. Either you're fighting with the CFO to try to prove that you're right, or you shut down because you don't feel like you have anything to, to, you know, communicate about. But the reality is, is if you look at all of these as growth opportunities, suddenly you should be in the room.

Imagine how much better the CFO's decisions might be because they have the benefit of your perspective, and vice versa I remember Donna Alvarado, [00:21:00] who was a former faculty, some of our alumni from the earlier years will remember Donna, and she had shared a story about how when she was invited to be on the board of a major railroad organization in, in the United States, that she was going to her first board meeting thinking what am I gonna lend to this?

I know nothing about railroading." And she just told herself, and she shared with all of us, and it just stuck with me in some way I can contribute, you know, from my own perspective. And I think knowing that we can contribute, but then as a leader, understanding the wonderful contribution that the people that we surround ourselves with can make as well.

Um, as we wrap up this podcast, what else might you want to share or ask [00:22:00] us to consider? Yeah. No, there... Thank you. First of all, what a great conversation. I always enjoy these, these topics, Stephanie, so thank you for creating the space for that. I think there are two things that I'd like to share with you.

The first one is there's a concept as a faculty member of the Columbus Medical Association PLA that I would like to share because I think this comes up a lot for physician leaders. There are different kinds of leadership development programs out there and I think thinking that they're all sort of interchangeable might be the missed opportunity.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know how they complement each other? And this comes up a lot when I work with physician leaders. When you think about getting an MBA or when you think about getting, um, through an institution, a leadership development program, those are often about learning how to navigate the larger system.

It's about looking out the window in some way, looking at how the streets tie together, where the parking garages may be, where do you find shopping versus where do you go get dinner. [00:23:00] I contrast that with where I believe our PLA at the CMA does something different. I think it's about self-improvement. I think it's about looking in the mirror.

It's about looking at how do we help ourselves show up and be the best version of ourselves that we can with humility and curiosity amongst all the other concepts that come out of that Theory U, um, methodology that allow physicians to show up and be the best leaders that they can. And I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

I think they're complementary. So that's, that's one thing that I think would be a really important thing for me to wanna make sure that I could share with this group. And then I'll end with this. Practice letting go of being right every single day. Imagine what it would look like when you talk with your friends or your family or your colleagues.

What would it look like in the conversation if you could shift from having to be right to allowing yourself to be curious? Where did you land when you did that? How did it feel [00:24:00] different for you? You could literally practice this today In the next conversation that you have Yeah, that's so great. I mean, one of the things I think about always with the PLA is it's so s- applicable to so many areas of our lives, whether it's personal, professional, in the clinical setting, or as leaders, and you're exactly right.

I mean, just letting go of that need to be right. Just trying it today- Yeah ... on, in some small way. And then I would also say notice what that feels like, and I'm wondering if that sense of relief there might also be a little bit of playfulness with it, you know? Just in, in- Yeah ... smaller stakes situations.

But yeah couple words coming up for me today in talking to you, relief and curiosity. Um- Yeah ... but yeah, who couldn't use a little microdose [00:25:00] of relief right now? Ain't that the truth. Ain't that the truth? Yeah. So, yes. Well, thank you, and I, I know you know your, your decades of experience as both a physician and a leader and a human being who's really great.

Thank you ... really appreciate your sharing your wisdom and that perspective and, and really inspiring words, so. Thank you. Thanks, Diane. Uh, yeah, thank you. And thank you, the listener, for joining us today. More information about and an application for the Physicians Leadership Academy at the Columbus Medical Association can be found at www.physiciansleadershipacademy.org.

We are currently accepting applications for the next class beginning in September of 2026. If you're curious about the personal transformation that can occur through the PLA, as well as the impact that transformation can have for your patients and community, do something [00:26:00] amazing for yourself and fill out an application on the PLA website.

Applications will be closing soon, so don't delay. And more information about the Columbus Medical Association and affiliates and CMA member application can be found at columbusmedicalassociation.org. We'll see you next time.