A Coffee with Elisa Irlam, Founder of Dogs with Wings!

Grab a coffee and join us for a heartwarming conversation with Elisa Irlam, the incredible founder of Dogs with Wings!

Elisa knew from a young age that her passion belonged to animals. After initially pursuing veterinary medicine in a fiercely competitive landscape, she pivoted to Biological and Ecological Sciences at NAIT. A twist of fate and a past connection introduced her to the world of guide dog training, leading her to Ottawa for a rigorous three-year apprenticeship with Canadian Guide Dogs for the Blind.

Eventually returning to Alberta, a few late-night brainstorming sessions around a kitchen table birthed what would initially become the Western Guide Dog Foundation. Starting strictly with guide dogs for the blind, the organization steadily grew, expanding its services to mobility aid dogs, autism support dogs, and eventually PTSD and trauma support dogs. In 2007, they underwent a beautiful rebrand to become Dogs with Wings Assistance Dogs Society—a name that perfectly encompasses their soaring mission.

In this episode, Elisa pulls back the curtain on the intense, multi-year process of raising a service animal:

• The Puppy Phase: Starting at just 8 weeks old, puppies undergo intensive socialization and basic behavioral training with foster raisers until 16–18 months.
• The Advanced Raiser Program: From 18 months to 2 years, the dogs enter "advanced school," getting dropped off every morning to train for specialized service work.
• The Graduation Rate: Elisa explains why only 30% to 50% of dogs successfully make it to "vested" status, and how the dogs who drop out still change lives through their Companion Dog Program.

Today, Dogs with Wings is fully internationally accredited by Assistance Dogs International, handling everything from breeding and raising to specialized client matching. Tune in to learn about the incredible science, patience, and love behind these life-changing animals!

Check them out here: Home - Dogs With Wings

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Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Elisa, and you are listening to Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam. Well, good morning, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam. Jennifer? Cam, how was your weekend? It was busy, but good. Yeah, it was good. It was good. Yours? Well, it was the big baseball weekend, Tales of the Fields. Yeah, you were up in Fort McMurray, Alberta. Yes. Which is pretty north for our listeners, not in... Yeah, it is. If you're not in Alberta, that's northern Alberta. It sure is. Yeah, and it was good? Well, you know what? We lost two, won the last one, so it was a good ride home. Right on. Minus the potholes on the Highway 60. Potholes everywhere. Listen. I know. Alberta Transportation. Yes. Is that who does the pothole filling? Well, I think so, yes, but there's just potholes everywhere. Highway City potholes. Some of them are so big, you disappear in them, you don't even know where you are. I felt like that was gonna happen. I know, it's crazy, but anyway, Alberta Transportation, maybe you can work on that, but by the time they get to it, it'll be winter and the potholes will be back. So does it really matter? Anyways, we want to tell you that we are coming to you live from the Wall Coffee Roasters in the heart of beautiful downtown Acheson. So if you hear some noise in the background, coffee machines whirring, people talking, children, no children today. Sometimes there's children and not that they're screaming, it's just, you know, they get loud and exuberant, but it's because we're live today at the Wall Coffee Roasters. If you haven't been to the Wall Coffee Roasters, check it out. They're right now, they're roasting coffee. We can hear them roasting. Yes, we can. So it's kind of awesome. So it's good. And we also want to tell you that the reason that Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam keeps going is because of our sponsor, Wing Snob Canada, where the wings are fresh, never frozen with 16 different flavors and four rubs, Cam. That's right. And some of the best wings you will ever have with 10 locations, eight in Edmonton, one in Calgary, one in Grande Prairie. You wanted one in Fort McMurray. I did. Yeah, but there isn't one. No, so we got pizza instead. You got pizza instead. So hey, listen, if you haven't had a Wing Snob wing, you got to check it out. And like Jennifer said, they got some great flavors. And you know what? It is. It's fresh, never frozen. And I know that for a fact because Mike Chadi tells me it's fresh, never frozen. That's right. So it's awesome. Wing Snob. Pick up some wings today and enjoy that with your family or stop by or order in or skip the dishes or whatever they do, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So check them out at www.wingsnob.ca. Right on. That's kind of cool. So I am very excited about today. Me too. You know why? Because we're talking about something very special today. We are. I'm so excited about this. I know. We've been, we're happy this guest that it finally worked. Yeah. We've been trying for a long time. She's a busy lady. I know she is because she does a busy thing. She does. And we've wanted this guest because it is. It's a very special thing. And so I'm very excited today. So why don't we get into it? So our guest today is the founder, Cam, the founder of. We have the founder of. Dogs with Wings. Dogs with Wings. Yes. So welcome Elisa Irlam. Hi Elisa. Hi there. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. It's good to have you. And we are. We are genuinely excited. We've talked about you for a long time. All good, I promise. Okay. That's great. No, no, it's true. And because we've just we read your story and thought we got to have we I want this person to and Jennifer's like, yeah, we got to have this person tell their story because it's so exciting. So this is fantastic. So yeah, let's get into it. Let's get into it. Okay. So just quickly for our listeners. Yes. And we're going to get into the depths of what what Dogs with Wings does. But before we get into a little bit of your story, just quickly tell us what is Dogs with Wings? Yeah. Well, Dogs with Wings Assistance Dogs Society is the full name. Okay. So we breed, raise, train, place and support dogs with, for people with disabilities. Right. As well, we place our dogs in facilities. So some of the largest child advocacy centers, like Little Warriors, Luna Foundation, Zebra. I didn't know that. A lot of our dogs go into court. They go into schools, RCMP Detachments and police stations for victim services. So that's a huge program of ours. That's incredible. I didn't know all that. And we just started a PTSD trauma dog program. We haven't placed any dogs yet, but that is our newest program. This is incredible. I didn't know all this. We're going to learn so much. Folks, this is going to be great. I can tell already. This is going to be exciting. But we need to find out a little bit about Elisa before we find out more about Dogs with Wings. So tell us about where you grew up, Elisa. So I grew up probably until grade 6 in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The Windy City. Manitoba. Yeah, you bet. So lots of my family was there. Then we moved to Calgary when the big boom was on. Yeah. But unfortunately, it was the end of the boom. Then we moved to Edmonton or St. Albert. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's where I sort of finished up high school. Okay. Yeah. Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton. Yeah. Right on. So you went to high school, you finished high school in St. Albert then? Yeah. Okay. Graduate of? Paul Kane High School. Shout out to Paul Kane. That's right. Paul Kane. Yeah. Lots of people went to Paul Kane. Lots of famous people. So you're famous. Well, there you go. There you go. That's pretty cool. So growing up, what did you think you wanted to do after high school? It was always to be a veterinarian. Always. Animals were always my number one thing. Right. I'd get those big coffee table books of dogs and dog breeds. So I knew every breed. You could describe them and I could tell you the breed. You knew them. That's cool. Yeah. Did you have dogs growing up? Did you have dogs in your family? Yeah. Yeah. My first dog was just a little cock-a-poo named Willie. Willie. That was his name. Yeah, we wouldn't do that with any of our service dogs. Willie. Shout out to Willie. No longer with us. Yeah. That's right. Then I had an old English sheep dog named Joey. Really? Yeah. Then my next dog was another old English sheep dog named Jake. Now my dogs are, I have a pug. Okay. I have a pug question. Do pugs shed a lot? Oh, they are the worst ever. Okay. Just because they're short hair, that's a misconception that they don't shed. Oh, you just touch them and if he shakes, the hair just goes and they also have little barbs in them. Right. I walk a lot like just in bare feet. Oh, okay. Absolutely. I'll call my daughter over. We get the flashlight and the tweezers and we pull it out. They're like a German shepherd. Yeah. Really. But funny, cute. I know that. I love pugs. Oh my God. He's hilarious. His name is Bones. My first one was Sebastian. And then I also have a Whippet. Oh, do you? A Whippet. Those are fascinating dogs, Whippets. Yes. They are amazing dogs. I mean, they're shaped so uniquely. They're unbelievable. Yeah. I'm probably the only one in the service dog industry that doesn't have a lab. Okay. Right? Any of the staff and everything. Everybody's always got the labs. Can a Pug be a service dog? No, but they would probably be a really good companion dog. All they want to do is love you and be with you. They're kind of like a Velcro dog. This is what I'm saying. I've wanted a Pug, but unfortunately, they're not hypoallergenic. And I'm a little allergic to pet hair. But I love Pugs. Just the look on their face when they look at you, it's like, I have to love you. You're amazing. After the show, I'll show you some pictures. I can hardly wait. He's just adorable. Yeah. Okay. So then did you apply to go to veterinary school after? No. So when I was in high school, I did a work experience program and I worked at a vet in St. Albert. And I remember always talking to the vet there. And even back then, it was really difficult to get in. There was probably only the school in Saskatoon for people in the West. And I think they only took maybe 20 or so students a year to get into there. So you would have to go to university, regular university. And then as you're going along in regular university, you start applying to get in. So like get a science degree and then apply. And so I just, like I had good marks, but you would need high 90s to even get in. And I also thought of, well, maybe I'd be a vet tech. But the place that I was working at the time seemed to me, they have all this knowledge, but they weren't able to use it. Times have changed now and now you know, you can, they have people working the reception and they just do the reception and then the vet techs are all in the back, they help out with surgery and do all that kind of stuff. But when I was there, it wasn't that. I heard one time, somebody told me that becoming a veterinarian is harder than becoming an actual doctor because, absolutely, you have to learn so much more, like so much and the animals can't talk and tell you what's going on. Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's right. I always thought that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow. That's incredible. OK, so so you shadowed there and you thought, OK, well, this isn't going to work out. What was next? So, you know, my dad didn't want me to take any time off of school. Right. You can't take that year off. You know, you got to keep going. Because you'll never go back. Exactly. So funny. I took Biological Sciences at NAIT and then you can go into one of three programs in the second year. So I took Ecological Sciences thinking, oh, maybe I'd go out and study wolves in the wilderness. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, that didn't work. Anybody that took Ecology didn't really get jobs. Studying wolves. Yeah, yeah. That's good, though, it was a good try. Yeah, yeah, no, that didn't work. So I ended up, when I was in high school, I also worked at a boarding kennel in St. Albert. Okay. And somehow came about, she contacted me and said there was someone starting a school in Edmonton for guide dogs for the blind. Okay. Yes. And maybe that's something that you're interested in. So I thought, well, this is kind of neat. And I looked it up or whatever. It's like, oh, wow, you know, you get to work with dogs, you get to help people. Yeah. So I contacted this gentleman who was starting the school in Edmonton. And he was a bit passive, whatever. And I just phoned and kept bugging and bugging and bugging him. Because I think at the time I was living in Vegreville, like I wanted the like the cute animals, but I got a job at the Vegreville with the fisheries. Not my thing. You were working with fish? Is that? I can't even remember. I can't even remember. She blocked it out. It's definitely blocked it out. Repressive. The friend of mine, she liked the fisheries and then she went on to be like a park ranger. Again, that was again very difficult to get into. Everybody stays in that position. You sort of got to wait till they retire and move on. Anyway, so I bugged and bugged this guy. So he hired me and I got sent to pretty amazing Palm Springs, California. Okay, come on. I was like, yeah, maybe 20, 21. I got in a van. I took two dogs with me, a golden retriever and a shepherd and Max and Hammer, Max and Hammer, and I drove to California. Wow, like the most I've ever done is drove to Calgary. Yeah, yeah, California. Palm Springs. Okay. Wow. So Max and Hammer road trip, Palm Springs. Here we come. And so I arrived there and I guess just started learning how to train guide dogs and everything. And he would pay me like through just, you know, over whatever. And after a while, things weren't as, it was hard to get in touch with him. Like a board member got in touch with me. So the basic quick story, because we don't have hours here, I'm thinking. Yeah. You know, he also had a security dog business here. Okay. He was raising money for the guide dogs, but putting it into his security. I had no idea. I was in Palm Springs, California. So basically when I got back, that was it, right? I had to come back. I was out there for maybe five, six months. But the purpose of Palm Springs was to learn. To learn how to train the guide dogs and then come here and start the program here. So at that time, was it initially training guide dogs for the blind? Yes. So that was the entire program? Yes. It was just for the blind. And I'll always remember, I was so worried when the first class of students came in. Yeah. I'm like, how do I talk to them? Right. I can't say, did you see that? It's like, oh, no, did you hear that? I was terrified. Well, yeah. I was terrified. I just really had, I was never. For sure. Grew up with that. Like, I just didn't know. So, the first class came in and, boy, I always got into it for the dogs. But once I saw how those dogs change those people's lives, that was it. It just really turned in my mind and just in my heart. That's incredible. I mean, just thinking about that, training a dog to help a blind person, navigate life, right? I mean, basically, right? Navigate life. Absolutely. That dog is their eyes. And you got to put a lot of trust in that dog. You do ever, yeah. That must have been so incredibly fulfilling for you to watch that. This just never gets old as long as I've been doing this. It's so amazing. Because it gives them a whole new life, right? Like it gives them... So much independence. Changes their life. Changes their life. Absolutely. Incredible. So you were hooked. Yeah, you were hooked. That was it. This was your calling. It definitely was. In the industry, we always say it's not just a job, it's not a career, it's a lifestyle. I always would say it gets into your blood. Yeah, it's a calling. How? Yeah. What other job could be so fulfilling and so rewarding? Yeah. Okay. So you came back to Edmonton. Came back to Edmonton. Looking up the guy, trying to find the guy who sent you to Palm Springs. Yeah. No, that... Not so much. Not so much. So no, that didn't happen. The first dog didn't make the program, like hammer the shepherd, he didn't make the program. But Max, I brought him back with me, the Golden Retriever, but I had to give him back. Right. Anyways, I thought, well, where else am I going to do this? Because I really want to do this. So I got hired at Canadian Guide Dogs for the Blind in Ottawa. So I moved there. Again, me and my, I had a little car in my little U-Haul, and I drove to Ottawa. Quite a difference. Palm Springs and Ottawa. Yes. So then I went to Ottawa, and there did a three-year proper apprenticeship program, and stayed on for another about two and a half years. I was married, had my daughter, but it was pretty intense. Like people come in for class, you're working 28 days straight, you only get Sunday afternoons off. Wow. Sometimes in the evenings. What's the purpose in that? So we have all the clients come from all across Canada at that school, and we're training them how to use the dog. So they're all over. I guess, yes. Intense training, and then they go home with their dogs. They go home with their dogs, but we also go with them. So the first week after we're done that month long training with them, the trainers will go to their home, and we need to make sure the dogs are doing the routes properly. Right. That makes sense. Because it's a new environment for the dog too. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So that was sort of where that happened. My husband was doing a lot of shift work, and I was at work a lot. We would have probably needed a nanny for my daughter. So we decided, well, let's move back home where we had more family support. Sure. Yeah. I always said I would never let anybody else raise my daughter. But I was looking, remember the Penny Saver? Yeah. Oh, yes, the Penny Saver. The Penny Saver. I'm really showing my age. Yeah. The Penny Saver, yes. So there was an ad in there. Someone was doing some dog training with the public, and they wanted some PR helper or something. I thought, well, this is kinda cool. I was really kinda missing it. I was out of the dog thing for a little while. And so I phoned. Well, we were on the phone for about an hour and a half. It was just like, oh, this is really cool. You knew where this was going, didn't you? Yeah. So I helped her out a bit with that, but she was so intrigued by guide dogs. Yeah. So there was many, many nights sitting around the kitchen table. And we started a guide dog school. Wow. Yeah. That's where. Yeah. You know what I love about what you just said? This was birthed by sitting around the kitchen table. Right. Isn't that where some of the greatest ideas start? Absolutely. Sitting around the kitchen table. Yeah. That's phenomenal. That's really cool. And so that was the start of Dogs with Wings? We were called Western Guide Dog Foundation. Okay. So that was our first name. Yeah. As we go through, we've had a few more. But just as we opened up different programs. Right. So we started that. And at first you're not for profit. So we were incorporated as a not for profit, May 10th, 1996. Right. And then the next year, I believe it was in March of 97. Then we were a registered charity. Okay. Yeah. So after about two, two and a half years. Oh, and when we started, we rescued from the Humane Society. Really? Yes. So they were few and far between that worked. Yeah. But of course. You know, that's how we started. And my daughter was still little, so we got a backpack and I would take a turn, the other founder would take a turn. My daughter would go on our back and we'd train dogs. And I'd be teaching the other founder with this. Where did you do this? In your house or did you? Just around the city. When you're training guide dogs, you need a good grid system. Because they have to go straight to the curb and then you make your turn to the right or you make your turn to the left. And we need high curbs because that's easier to teach the dogs. And so when you're first training them, they have to keep going straight, straight, straight till the environment or the trainer tells it to turn or something. Again, that's always for the blind person's orientation. Right. Right. Right. They need to go straight to the curb, then make their turn. So you're going, you're walking all over the place. You bet. Yep. Just finding different areas around Edmonton. Yeah. And then after about two, two and a half years of not being paid, the other founder moved on, did her own thing. So I continued. And shortly after that, I guess we, another person, another trainer, certified trainer came in. She came in from Europe and she helped us out. And she was there for probably about 17 years. Wow. And just as time went on, again, we just did Guide Dogs for the Blind. Right. Then in 2003, just the needs of the community changed. And so that's when we added our Mobility Service Dog Program. Okay. So we had trained some dogs that would help people with their balance. But mostly it was for people living in a wheelchair, using a wheelchair. And so when we did that, we couldn't really call Guide Dog anymore. So we made this big, long name to include everything that no one could ever say again. And it was always said wrong, but we did Western Guide and Assistance Dogs Society. Okay. So it's a bit of a mouthful. Yeah. So we would go wgaads for short, but yeah, no one could ever say it. Yeah, yeah, that's true. No, no. Wow. So obviously training a seeing-eye dog is much different, or is it much different than a help dog? Absolutely. It would be, for sure. Because there's different tasks. Absolutely. The guide dog is guiding you and moving around obstacles and taking you to a door, whereas a mobility assistance dog, or we call it a service, mobility service dog, if you drop your keys, the dog will pick them up, place them in your lap, turn on and off lights for you, press the buttons to open the automatic doors. So that's a lot more of what their job is. So those types of dogs need to be very good at retrieving, you know? I remember testing some of the dogs and it's like, okay, go get this, right? And you got to see what they're like, and they'll go and they'll bring it back. And then you do it a few more times. They're like, yeah, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. So it's like, okay, you're not going in that program. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then in 2007, that was huge in for autism. That's when there was an organization in Ontario, the National Service Dogs, that started an autism dog school to help these kiddos. And Alberta had a lot of programs to help the kids and the families. So we had an influx of people moving into Alberta. Yeah. With children with autism. Right. And so we started that program, and that blew everything sort of out of the water. So, again, we needed to include that. Yeah. So we sort of did a rebranding in 2007. And we worked with a group and we said, OK, we do these, these, these, and these dogs. Yeah. How do we? So they came up with Dogs with Wings Assistance Dogs Society. What a great name. And that encompasses everything. It's a great name. And, you know, when you think of Dogs with Wings, so for guide dogs, they would be the pilots. Yeah. You know, they're like the angels. That was the first thing I thought of. Yes. Like they're the angels for people who need an angel. Yes. Yeah. So it's that name has really, well, it's stuck. We're not changing it anymore. That's a very good name. So we're, you know, known for that name and such now. Yeah. So that's kind of where, where it all, yeah, where it sort of evolved to. And then our waiting lists are huge. I can imagine. Okay. So let's talk about that a little bit. Let's talk about that. Because I want to know, you don't just snap your fingers and a service dog is trained. Tell us the process and how long it takes to get a service dog ready to go. Yeah, it's too bad that we couldn't just pick them off the shelf. Get a prescription. Right. For them. Yeah. It is a long time. So first of all, for a dog to be ready to be placed with a client, that's a whole other sort of system where now we breed our own dogs. And they're all basically Labrador Retriever. Sometimes they're crossed with a Golden Retriever, but basically. So we breed them. So we work with all other service dog and guide dog organizations around the world. Yeah. So we're part of an International Breeding Cooperative. Yeah. And so we will breed them. And then we have volunteers that are called our whelping homes. And we place the mom there and they whelp the puppies till they're about eight weeks old. But starting at day three, we are doing a lot of interaction and socializing with them. They're walking on different surfaces. We get little playmobiles, all the kids' kind of toys, little slides. And every day we're doing stuff with them. Just to get them exposed to everything. And then once they hit eight weeks old, then we place them with their first foster home, which we call puppy raisers. And we're always desperate for puppy raisers. It's a big job. Again, very rewarding, but it's a big job. It's not just raising a puppy. There's more to it than that. Tell us a little bit about what a puppy raiser does. So basically, they have the pup from eight weeks old till they're about 16, sometimes 18 months old. So there's all the potty training, the house training, basic manners in the home. And they do chew a lot of stuff, you guys. The lab puppies are, you know, they chew a lot. I'm not going to lie about that. But we have full time sort of support. So once a week, we have puppy classes. Sometimes you come to our facility in the West End of Edmonton, or sometimes you're going to West Ed. We go to the zoo, we go to the Enjoy Centre, you know, we go to the mall. Just to expose them to as much as possible. Every different type of environment and situation, you don't know where these dogs are going to be in the end. So we need to expose them to everything. Wow. And then as they are going through, we go through another so many, I guess, markers, training tests. You know, we do puppy testing at seven weeks, where we film that and we put them through, you know, loud noises, an umbrella, kind of thing. So we want to see what they are like. And then at six or eight months old, we do what we call walk-in talks, where we go to the mall and we just see how they react to things. Sometimes there's dogs that don't really quite pass those. Right. And then they are released from the program and then we will find an adoptive home for them. Okay. And then we have another test in for training tests when they're about 12 months old. Okay. And then again, we go through a series of testing. So they go through stages. Yes. And then, you know, there's always, there's so many things to look at. There is temperament, size, adaptability. Right. As well as how they react and how they recover from certain things. Right. Also, their health, their eyes, they have to get their eyes tested. There's many genetic tests that they have to go through. Wow. So, and then once they're done with the puppy raiser, just when they start learning everything and they're really good, they gotta say goodbye. And then they move to an adult raiser, what we call them, or an advanced raiser. And those are another set of foster homes that have them from 18 months old till about two years old or so, however long it takes to train them. And basically, that's like dropping your kids off to school every day. Right. So, no, there's no dogs that stay overnight at our facility. We have all of our foster homes, so they drop them off in the morning before they go to work. Our trainers work with them during the day, and then they pick them up at the end of the day. And we also have what we need, boarding homes. So, people go away on holidays, any of our raisers, we don't ever put them in a kennel facility. We have them stay at our boarding homes. So, that's a whole big process which takes almost two years, and not all of our dogs make it. We have high standards. What percentage makes it through? Between 30 and 50. Really? Yes. That's incredible. It's health standards, and we are an accredited member of Assistance Dogs International. So, we have many standards to adhere to, whether that be, again, there's administrative-wise, fundraising-wise, but temperament, their skills, they have to do so many skills, their health, just how they react to things. So, there's many, many standards that we'd have to adhere to. We're trusting these dogs in public. We're trusting these dogs with children. We need to make sure, the trainers, we need to sleep at night, making sure these dogs are going to be safe out there. Wow, what a process. See, I never would have imagined. This is incredible. That's only the dog process. That's not the client process yet. Right, that's just the dogs. Tell us about how the clients get matched with the dogs. So, matching is always key. So, we have some of our clients will do like a letter of intent. We have a big application process that needs to be done. Right. And we ask for references. We need medical background. Okay. They have to send in all of that. Then we'll do an interview with the client to see if we think that a dog is going to be the right fit for them. That's really important. Because, yeah, that would be key, right? Not every person could get a dog. Right. They have to be able to look after that dog financially, you know, within their housing, everything kind of thing. So, then once they go sort of through that, then they're put on a waiting list. You could wait six months. You could wait three years. Wow. It's all about the matching. Right. So, now they're on the waiting list. The trainers will know, okay, we're looking for dogs that can do this, this and this. Right. So, as the dogs, when they first come in for training, they get their basic foundational training, basic skills, and then once we figure out what they're really good at, we look at what the dog's strengths and weaknesses are, and then we'll take a look at our clients. So, say we have five people waiting for a mobility dog. They're in a wheelchair, they need help. So, we look at the dogs available, and we look at the clients available. Say we have three dogs, but we have eight clients. We will try to go and place those dogs to the three people that have waited the longest, but that may not be. We may go number two, and we may go number ten. It's that compatibility. So, you know, I myself have a pug at home. Very low energy. Now, if I was to get a border collie, that wouldn't work with myself either. I'm not active, and going out there, and if these people, it has to match your lifestyle. Otherwise, the dog will drive you crazy. There's some dogs that love to work, work, work, work, work. And if that person's lifestyle is not like that, that's not going to be a match. So matching is very, very key. No, no, and again, all of our dogs, we want them to love what they do. There's some dogs that are just like, yeah, no, I'm just not comfortable with that. So we also have another really good program we have is our companion dog program. And these dogs are ones that we place with someone with a disability, either be a child or an adult, but they're not vested. So when our dogs are vested, they can go into public areas. Our companion dogs aren't vested, but they do such incredible things for these families. And they can do all these skills in the home, but maybe those dogs just in public, they were just like, yeah, this is too much for me. But they still do amazing work with the families. Wow. Isn't this incredible? Oh, this is fascinating to me because again, I think for most of us, we see a help dog, maybe with someone in a mall or somewhere, and you just think, well, there's a dog with that person and you don't realize. What goes into it? This is really something like you don't realize the investment that is made in the dog. You said investment. No, I want to ask you because again, I think this is something else. People do not understand what is the cost of getting one of these dogs ready to go. So for a client, it's $1 and it's for the loan of the dog for its working life. So once the dog retires, we usually transfer ownership to the client, family members or whatever, but no, we can't ask our clients to pay that, to pay any price. So if you count everything, $50,000 for one dog going out the door, and we don't really recoup any of those. Right, you're not getting that money back. We kind of lose money every time we place a dog. You're a bad business case. Right, exactly, exactly. Wow. Yeah. So I didn't know that. One dollar and then $50,000, everything. And I bet you're being a tad conservative there on that because there would be so much involved in that. People don't realize. They don't realize. They don't realize. Our vet costs, dog food, supplies, just there's travel. We offer lifetime support to our clients. Every year, our clients, so usually we do it all summer long, is we need to see every client that's graduated with a dog. They have to do another public access test. We need to make sure that they're upkeeping their end of the bargain, and they're maintaining those training standards, and that they're going to be okay out in the public. So here's the million dollar question. 50,000 to train a dog, one dollar to the client. How does it change their life, the client? There's really no words. There's really no words. Their independence. Now, we don't train guide dogs anymore, but that's the person's eyes. Yes, yeah. A mobility service dog, that's their arms, that's their hands, you know. For the autism clients, it's, you know, with the service dogs and the guide dogs, it really helped one-on-one the client. Right. With what we noticed with the autism program, is it helped the child, but kind of more the family. I never thought of that. Just that peace of mind and just, it's always so much about the child and everything, and having that dog just really helps the rest of the family as well. Again, I did say we just started our PTSD trauma dog program as well. Now, even our facility dogs, they work in child advocacy centers. So, like the Zebra, Little Warriors, they go into court. There's a lot of children who wouldn't, it's hard for them to tell their stories, but when they've got a dog on their lap, the story comes out. When they've got that dog in court, even if the dog's just resting their head on their foot, they tell the story and these, you know, people are getting convicted. It's just insurmountable, the impact. Its like their telling the story to the dog and the dog's listening to them and he's just loving on them. And no feedback. Yeah, he's just loving on them. Yeah, yeah, this is so amazing. Yeah, the impact is just incredible with the Facility Dogs. We've got one dog at Strathcona RCMP. That dog helps the officers. It helps the staff. They deal with a lot in their daily work. And boy, you come back and that dog is there to be with you. Yeah, this is just, this is so incredible. And again, you see it as an ordinary person. You see it from time to time and you just kind of goes in one and out the other type of thing and you don't realize not only what goes into this to training the dog, how it changes lives. Just, it's so amazing, like on so many levels. It's just incredible. So it is, it's absolutely incredible. But I want to ask you another question because I think this is really important for our listeners to know. What's your biggest need? What is your biggest challenge? How can people help? Two probably two ways. There's not just one answer. As a not-for-profit, as a registered charity, financial is always, you're not going to talk to a charity that doesn't need that financial. As you know, we don't get any sustainable government funding at all. And puppy raisers, our foster homes. That's, you know, our foster families. You know, we need to, not every dog makes it, and we have waiting lists. So we do, you know, we have a great breeding program, and we try to, we have enough programs that we try to use every dog we can, but they all don't make it. Right? But we need those raisers to help us be, just to help it be successful in exposing them and giving them a nice home to live in. Yeah, because without them, yes, you couldn't do what you do. Yeah, you can't train the dog. And then the financial side of it, of course, you know, again, it costs $50,000 per dog. And how many dogs are in the program at one time, do you think? Usually around between 40 and 50 at various stages. And we probably have 200 volunteers. We could not do it without volunteers. You know. Wow, and what kind of volunteers are you looking for outside of the puppy raisers, those kinds of people? Are there other? Our biggest needs are definitely to look after the dogs. But you know, we have different events, you know, presentations that we do. So, you know, we always look for that as well. And even if people have skills like photography skills, video skills, you know, we always want to make a professional video. Well, I don't know, you know, and that's how do we get the money to pay for something professional like that. Designing skills, graphic design, you know, social media type of things. So, any type of skills, but yeah, probably our biggest is financial and our foster homes. This is amazing. This is absolutely amazing. This is blowing me away. Like, this is incredible what you guys are doing. And you've been doing this? 30 years. 30 years here. Yeah. And then prior to about 6 years. Yes. Yeah. And with who you're with now, you don't get paid. You don't. Oh, no. That was just in the beginning. Oh, okay. Now you're good. Okay. Yes. Yes. You started out. That was sort of for the first two and a half, three years, we weren't getting paid. And then as time we got... So you and staff get. Yes. So this is, folks, this is unbelievable because I don't think people realize how it changes lives. I mean, really changes lives. Like, really changes lives. And when you talk about the, with the PTSD, the autism, I had no idea about autism and dogs and working together and how incredible that is. That's amazing. Yes. This is unbelievable. It's so rewarding. Again, I got into it for the dogs, but once I saw the impact they have on those people, it's just truly incredible. I still, you know, a guide dog is walking down the street. I just stop and watch and it's just so incredible. You were saying earlier that not every dog is trained properly to do this. There are organizations that aren't training properly to do this. And it's very important. Well, being accredited is very important. Being accredited is very important. That's our biggest thing is we're internationally accredited by Assistance Dogs International. So we have very strict standards to follow. Every five years, we need to be re-accredited. So we'll have an assessor come from anywhere in the world and they look at everything. We need to send them all of our paperwork, all of our policies. They come and they talk to raisers, they talk to clients, they just pick any file, talk to clients. And so when our dogs are vested, they're working in public, we have, we especially make our vests and we have the Assistance Dogs International accredited member logo on the dogs' vests. We have ID cards that are from Assistance Dogs International. So that's, you know, we go through a lot. So there are organizations in Alberta and around, they're owner-trained dogs, they do go through the government to get assessed and then they can be certified. But, and then there's other organizations. But it's, you know, I guess, I don't know, to be correct, just, we go through a lot. Our dogs, we've watched them being born and we've bred them. And they go through such critical testing. And our matching is very, very key. Yes. So I think it's very, very important. This is why Dogs with Wings, obviously, there's so much involved and you've covered this all. And it's, it's, yeah, it's just, this is really good. It's very good. Okay, tell us, tell us one quick story of a life that's really been changed by, that you know of. Don't have to give us names, but just tell us one quick story of a life that's been changed. She's like, hmm, which one to pick? Yeah, which one? Because there's probably so many, right? Which one would I talk about? One that's really, maybe lately, that's really impacted you or? Oh, geez. There's, there's so many. Yeah. I could even, oh, geez, you guys are putting on me on the spot here. I just know one of my, one of my guide dog users from the past. You know, they just, they're in the house. If they go anywhere, they got to use that white cane. And to have that dog as a companion as well. Yeah. Someone to talk to, someone to go out with, really, really changed their life. I'm not really giving anything, any justice here. One gentleman, he in a wheelchair, he drives. The dog was in with him in the vehicle. He pulled into the vehicle, sorry, pulled into his drive, into his garage. I believe closed the door. And when he was about to turn or he turned off the vehicle or before he turned off the vehicle, the keys dropped to the ground. I believe they fell under the wheelchair. So this could have been very, very dangerous. So that dog of ours scraped and scraped and scraped until she was able to get those keys and give them to him. And I believe another time with this gentleman, they were outside in freezing cold weather. And he was trying to get into the gate of where he worked. And again, the keys went down. And if no one's around, what are you going to do? He would have froze. Yes. So. I mean, just not only the physical, but I can imagine the mental side of it for these people. Like, like just it gives them a new lease on life. Absolutely. Like a new lease on life. Like you said the word, it's companionship. Yeah. Companionship. It becomes not only their, their worker, but their best friend. Wow. That's amazing. There's, there's no doubt. You know, yes, they do the work, but that, that companionship that they get. A lot of, there are a lot of people with disabilities that they're kind of on their own. On their own, yes. They don't have a lot of family support. Exactly. So this is their lifeline. It makes them get up every morning. Yeah. So. Incredible. This is blowing me away. I got to be honest. This is just blowing me away. This is so amazing. And we could, we could, we could go on for hours talking about this. But we are at the final question, and this is a question that we ask all of our guests. What is the best piece of advice you have been given, either personally or professionally, that you carry around with you to this day? Now, I got to try to say this without crying. It's okay. No, it's okay. I'm a big crier. Yeah, we are too. My very first guide dog user, Bill Owen, we trained our very first guide dog, and he was quite instrumental in just in the blind community and in Edmonton. Yeah. He founded the Braille Tone Music Society. He was our first client, and we would go and do presentations, and the next day, he would give the people that asked us to go, he would give them a call and thank them. He taught me, all you need to do is give that extra 1 percent. Give that extra 1 percent, and that will get you so far. And yeah, I'm probably not the most business-oriented, I'm all heart. And I, you know, there's a lot of schools, or organizations out there, and I just, I've always, it's just, it's about the people. Give them that extra 1 percent, and they remember that. And I really do live by that. I love that. I love that. Give the extra 1 percent. It's just so strong in my values, in everything that I do and... You can tell that you do that. That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. So where can people go to donate, to volunteer, to find out more information about Dogs with Wings? www.dogswithwings.ca Dogswithwings.ca Check it out. Got to check it out. Got to go to it. Folks, even, like, just check it out. That's all, I think. Incredible. Just check it out. Because I had no idea until today. And now, I mean, it's just, it's opened a world that's just unbelievable. I have a new respect. I have an amazing respect for you and what you do. This is unbelievable. Thank you for following your dream and your heart. I have a new respect for those dogs when I see them. Like, I always thought they were amazing, but now I'm like, this dog's been trained, this dog's gone through dog university. Absolutely. This is amazing. Absolutely. I have a new respect for the person who has that dog, because that's changed their life and it's incredible. It's really immeasurable. Wow. I was hoping you'd bring a dog today, but maybe we'll just come visit the dogs or something one day. Usually, I do because you feel naked if you don't bring a dog. Right. So I think you guys need to come. Yeah, we'll come. We'll come for a tour. You need to come for a tour. Yeah, we'll come see you. Absolutely. If you personally give us the tour, we'll come. Is that a deal? You betcha. All right. And you got a gala coming up? Yes. September 19th. That's our biggest signature fundraiser. And tickets are on sale now. You can just go right online. Right. So yeah, like you said, it's not just about giving money. It's gifts in kind. If you can take pictures or video or silent auction items, just volunteer to help maybe. Absolutely. All this kind of stuff. We're looking, we always look for dog sponsorships. Yeah. You can sponsor a litter, sponsor a dog. Sometimes, I'm going to be honest, sometimes our guests just blow me away. Like just blow me away. I'll be talking about this for days now. I know you will. This is unbelievable. So incredible. Well, everybody, thanks for listening. This has been great. Don't forget Wing Snob. If you're looking for dinner tonight, wingsnob.ca, check them out. And make sure that you tell everybody about this podcast. You got to tell everybody about this podcast. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your coworkers, tell your enemies. If you don't have any friends, make a friend to tell them about this podcast. Like you're sitting there at the bar having a drink going, did you hear that podcast about Dogs with Wings? Unbelievable. And the other thing they need to do is... You need to subscribe because then you will not miss the amazing guests we have on Coffee In The Park with Jennifer and Cam. Absolutely. We're coming up to two years. Can you believe it? Jennifer, we've been doing this. Next week, Cam. For two years. I know. We've never missed a week in two years. Not a week, no. Not one week. No. We've been doing it and I forget how many episodes. Well, this is 108 today. 108. Yes. You know what I heard? I heard this week, I'm just gonna say it. I heard this week that the average podcast lasts for like two months. That's what I heard. We've seen some of those.. We've seen some of those come and go. But you know why we keep going? Because of the amazing stories like this. Amazing stories. Listen, everybody, thanks for listening today. Check us out wherever you get your podcast or at www.coffeeinthepark.com. Not.ca I know, she's always got to help me with that, so it's really awesome. Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye. See you next week.