In The Game Podcast
Each week, Master Connector Sarah Maxwell sits down with incredible people and extracts the stories of their lives. Using her Neuro-psychology background, she delves into the DREAMS they had as a child and then weaves them back to the present moment. Who have they become? How have the dreams they had for their life realised themselves? How have they overcome challenges? What matters to them most NOW?These conversations are gripping and transformative, for both host and listener. Sit back, relax and enjoy!
In The Game Podcast
From OT to CEO: Sam Miklos Demonstrates that Putting People First Really Does Work!
Sam Miklos takes us through her journey from occupational therapist to CEO of Cornerstone Medical Recruitment, Australia's leading healthcare recruitment agency, revealing how following your curiosity can lead to remarkable career success. She shares her experience building a multi-million dollar business from home while balancing motherhood and overcoming challenges during the COVID-19 pandemic.
• Career transition from occupational therapy to recruitment after discovering her passion while registering with a recruitment agency in London
• Sam's approach to business decisions: "If you can't see it, you can't be it" isn't a limiting factor - she takes the first step without needing to see the full picture
• Building CMR from home with just her dog to over 100 employees with her husband Norbert as COO
• The strategic decision to double office space during COVID when competitors were downsizing
• Balancing motherhood and business leadership by focusing on "what is my lane?" and prioritizing wellbeing
• Making bold career moves by giving yourself permission to try different paths
• Finding time for creativity and wellbeing through meditation, yoga, and scheduled breaks from work
Whether you're considering a career change, building a business, or seeking to improve your leadership approach, Sam's story demonstrates that the most fulfilling professional journeys rarely follow a straight line.
Listen now to discover how embracing uncertainty and following your curiosity might lead to your own unexpected success.
The Podcast's 7th Season
Welcome to In the Game, a podcast where we aim to touch, move and inspire you to what's possible in life. My name is Sarah Maxwell and I am a self-proclaimed relationship engineer. Ever since I was a little girl, I was curious about how people work and how they interact with one another. With a degree in biopsychology representing my country of Canada in beach volleyball. With a degree in biopsychology representing my country of Canada in beach volleyball, retiring from sport into mindset and purpose coaching, I now spend my days running Chatta-box Media, where we aim to story-tell for brands through the medium of podcasting, all while raising an eight-year-old daughter with my partner of 24 years. We are now in season seven of this podcast, featuring a special series on women called who Knew that Was Work aimed at young women who want to broaden their horizon when it comes to career choosing.
Go deeper into the pod and discover incredible stories of changemakers who manifest their dream lives. Gain tangible tools to apply to your own life by scrolling back to that initial season where we were more workbook focused. Have a laugh when we initially were coined the Nat and Sarah show, when my five-time Olympian partner, natalie Cook, and I bantered and had loads of fun interviewing and discovering our common passion individuals who rise to the occasion in life. Okay, now it's time to dive on in to this episode.
Ge...
Hello, my name is Audrey Karen Arthilka and I'm seven years old. I'm Australian by Australian heritage. We wish to acknowledge the land on which this podcast is being recorded, minjim country, the place of the blue water lilies. We are inspired by the world's oldest living culture and seek wisdom from the people who came before us, the Jagra and Turrbal people. We pay our deepest respects to the tradition of storytelling when we share people's stories and we extend our respect. All Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the first Australians. Peoples as the first.
Speaker 2:Australians, welcome to In the Game, a podcast where we aim to touch, move and inspire you to what's possible in life. My name is Sarah Maxwell and I am a self-proclaimed relationship engineer. Ever since I was a little girl, I was curious about how people work and how they interact with one another. With a degree in biopsychology, representing my country of Canada in beach volleyball, retiring from sport into mindset and purpose coaching, I now spend my days running Chattabox Media, where we aim to storytell for brands through the medium of podcasting, all while raising an eight-year-old daughter with my partner of 24 years. We are now in season seven of this podcast, featuring a special series on women called who Knew that Was Work aimed at young women who want to broaden their horizon when it comes to career choosing. Go deeper into the pod and discover incredible stories of changemakers who manifest their dream lives. Gain tangible tools to apply to your own life by scrolling back to that initial season where we were more workbook focused. Have a laugh when we initially were coined the Nat and Sarah show, when my five-time Olympian partner, natalie Cook and I bantered and had loads of fun interviewing and discovering our common passion individuals who rise to the occasion in life. Okay, now it's time to dive on in to this episode. My curious mind has been waiting patiently this past year to sit down with today's guest CEO of Cornerstone Medical Recruitment, sam Miklos. I jokingly called her the talent when I referred to her off the cuff during a post-production session. When I got to help this incredible woman host her very first branded podcast, it Takes Heart. There's this unique moment when a powerful person reveals themselves amidst the vulnerability of doing something new, and when I witnessed it, the magic of why Sam and her team have created such success at CMR over the past decade became abundantly clear.
Speaker 2:Sam began her career as an occupational therapist before deciding to head to London for a change of scenery. While registering with a recruitment agency for her own OT work, she found herself more intrigued by the recruiter's work than the OT role she was going for. From then on, her passion for helping the healthcare community was lit. Three years later, in 2012, she would return to Australia to found Cornerstone Medical Recruitment with her husband and COO, norbert. Within 10 years, it would become Australia's leading healthcare recruitment agency. In 2023 alone, cmr more than doubled its profit margins, a remarkable feat by any standard, with more than 500 employees Australia-wide and having upgraded office space more than six times.
Speaker 2:Sam sits at the helm of a dynamic company that has had to navigate hurdles like the COVID-19 epidemic, against the backdrop of border closures and restricted flights. There was a shortage of healthcare workers with intensifying job demands, and this is where Sam took a different path compared to her competitors. She made the bold decision to focus on strengthening her team by delving deeper into specialized areas. This strategic move propelled CMR into its current standing as a market-leading national network of consultants and contractors. By the way, sam, you're doing really well because I know this is killing her to listen to this about herself. So it's getting worse. So get ready. Oh my gosh, she's deeply handling it.
Speaker 2:So, as CEO, sam continues to be recognized with awards such as Recruitment Leader of the Year 2024 by Seek Sarah and the Tiara Recruitment Awards, and Mompreneur of the Year in 2023. And yet Sam would much prefer to focus on awards that uplift her team, like Best Places to Work in Australia by the Australian Financial Review and Best Workplace Culture, a true testament to her consistent and constant prioritization of her people. So welcome, sam, to my personal podcast. In the game it's been going for seven seasons and since you're on season one heading into season two. I think you'll appreciate what that could look like. So I'm totally thrilled that you are doing this series on who Knew that Was Work, because it's really about inspiring young women to what's possible for their careers. So welcome and thank you.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. That was a lot you got through that.
Speaker 2:I handed it. I'm still here. You know way to receive, way to just breathe it in. Breathe it in. Okay, so here's the fun bit. So it's been 12 years since you first opened CMR's doors. Can you describe a week in your life of CMO, as CEO of CMR, in 2024, versus a week back in the day in 2012? Not that you'll remember everything, but just give us a little glimpse of what a week looks like now versus back then.
Speaker 3:It's so different. I mean, back then I was everything. I was the recruiter, I was HR admin, payroll finance, operations like I was. I was every single hat and you know, at the time the first office was actually working from home, so it was me and my dog, my husband, wasn't even in the business. Then we, when we moved into a space with Kate, who joined us not long after, and we didn't have windows, we just sat in this room with a tiny little room off to the side. So just the space as well, compared to what it is today, is really different.
Speaker 3:My week now, you know I have a lot of specialists around me in all of those roles, you know. So I don't need to be the smartest person in the room when it comes to all of these other areas, which is, you know, great. But also I still like to dive down to the rawness of right down at a sales level as well. Like I still get excited by that. But so many more people around now and you know I was a jack of all trades and a master of none then and I'm probably still much the same. I would say you know really bigger scale.
Speaker 2:Because, as I'm hearing that my first inclination was jack-of-all-trades, so you had to do everything. You would have been so busy did you even sleep? And yet you're still really busy, but just different busy so it changes yeah yeah, is it? I don't know if you can say this, but is there one that's harder than another?
Speaker 3:I actually feel it's harder now. When you were smaller, you almost had less to lose, like you could go. No, it didn't work out. Remember the first year we were like let's give it a year, let's see what happens. If it doesn't work out, like what have we got to lose? Nothing, I can go and get job recruiting, whereas now I have, you know, a hundred staff and their families in the back of my mind with every decision, like it's not just what that decision might do for me, it's what's that going to do for a company and their loved ones, not to mention all the healthcare workers. So I think there's more pressure and it's it's harder, a lot harder now.
Speaker 2:How do you deal with that pressure?
Speaker 3:I think, as I've got like, as I've gone through the years and had different experiences, I've gotten better. You know, the more times you've done something, you get better with it. I probably, um, I use data a lot now, which I used to go a lot on my gut. Now I've learned to get data to complement or supplement my gut, um, and help me through that, um. So, yeah, it's, and I and I probably I have a really good group of people around me, so I will talk, I will talk things through, I will, you know, I will. This is what I'm thinking, but I on the right track and I, you know, so I'll always soundboard things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool. Thank you for that, because I think sometimes and I wonder if, back in the day, if someone had asked you to even imagine what you do today. It's so difficult to conceive of it. So it's really nice to have someone with sort of those dual perspectives like you do. And yet I do want to take you back. I want to go on this little journey around your career, because this is really aimed at inspiring young women around what's possible for a career, and I think sometimes there's a perception of how things start and that they're a little bit different. So take us back to high school days. So you're growing up in Toowoomba, you're trying to figure out what you want to do for your career. How did you land on occupational therapy, like, was it your first choice?
Speaker 3:No, I do. You know what I actually really wanted to do? Natural medicine. And I was brought down. Mum and dad brought me down to look at the Water Street in the valley here in Brisbane. There was the campus there. A lot of the courses were at night time and I was just a country girl. I was just like, oh my God, I can't be walking around there in the middle of the night and you had to pay up front and we couldn't afford it. So I thought, well, if I don't do natural medicine, maybe I could do something else medical. But then for some reason, I don't even know why, I steered away from it and I actually I had all the results to get straight into occupational therapy, but I ended up getting into business. I don't even know how that came about and I land in business and I was probably more hell bent on getting out of Toowoomba. I just wanted to come to Brisbane, I wanted to be in.
Speaker 3:Brisbane and that was it. So I got into business at QT. I did that for a year and I just was a bit lost. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with that. I was working at Q at the time and an opportunity came up to manage a store and so I took that opportunity and I took a year out and I managed one of their stores and I was really good at sales. Like I turned the store around, you got a refurb, you know I was really great at it. But I kind of did it after a year and went, okay, well, I've done that now. Now what next?
Speaker 3:And I then had felt like I wanted to get into health and by then I'd missed a year and those marks were gone. So I went in and did a arts degree and then I did a year of that and then I got into occupational therapy and I enjoyed OT. Probably about three years in though, if I'm honest, I was like I don't know that I want to be one, like I was going out on placement. I was like it's okay, but I don't see myself being. But I loved the health space. I I was drawn to that area, but I didn't know what that looked like.
Speaker 3:And so by the time I graduated and, um, you know, got my honors, I thought do I want to do something? No, I didn't want to, didn't want to pursue that anymore. I was like I'm just gonna go overseas. My parents had always said go and live in London. They did that. They met over there, get over there. So I booked a ticket and off I went and and I'd worked before I left. I went out back to Toowoomba and I worked at the Toowoomba Hospital there for a period as an OT.
Speaker 1:And again.
Speaker 3:I enjoyed it? Did I love it? Probably not for me. And so when I got to London I found myself taking temp jobs and doing a bit of just mindless stuff and travelling. And I kind of rang an agent and go, oh, have you got something, I'll do it, but if not I'm okay. And then it was yeah, when I was registering with an agency I was like that job's interesting. I'm interested in working with healthcare workers, but none of the jobs you're telling me I really want to do. And that started the. I was actually at that role. I was taken on to recruit occupational therapists into the NHS.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, right, okay, isn't it? Good nothing like what I started. But, yeah, look at how all the pieces all come together. Yeah, the sales, like that business acumen, just that like little overview umbrella. Then you've got the desire for health. But and I even love how you're describing this, because I think I would have loved someone to tell me that I would be fine tuning the whole time Like there would be things that I would definitely know I didn't like and things that I did, and that there is a job.
Speaker 2:That could be all the things.
Speaker 3:I think, too, I was probably coming out of that era too, where you still you went to uni, you became a something and you stayed at that. Or two where you still you went to uni, you became a something and you stayed at that. And I remember running into a teacher on the year that I was off working in retail and she said she actually said how disappointing it was to hear that I ended up in retail and not gone on to be something else. And I think you know it's. I would say to someone younger, like it's, you will get there. Everything you do is getting you to where you are and you're going to get to, and everywhere you are at that moment is exactly where you need to be, but it'll unfold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't it nice to know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, of course, that's basically what spurred on this whole series, because I feel that your life is a testament to it, so let's tell it yeah and and inside of that there's there's this like key moment, when, like this is a relational moment, yet it becomes really important in your career. You meet Norbert, you meet your husband and I, for some reason, as a Canadian, cannot say his name properly which I'm observing myself saying it strangely.
Speaker 3:Norbert Norbert.
Speaker 2:Norbert as it's coming out of my mouth, I'm just literally saying stop it. But as you met him and you knew that things were getting serious, I guess ultimately, yes, I want to know a little bit about you. Don't have to give a whole relationship podcast, that's a different thing thing. But I am so curious if you could even imagine how would CMR be different if he wasn't the COO, if he hadn't had your back in those early days when you were setting things up like give us a little picture of Norbert's place I can't say of his place in your life.
Speaker 3:I think, um, you know, everything that I am today is has really come from him. You know, even meeting him, um, we met on a trip in Egypt. We're both living in London. Um, he had a visa for two months and then we dated for two months. Then he came back to Australia and I stayed in the UK and then decided to follow my heart and move to Sydney with this guy.
Speaker 3:Had I not met him, I probably would have been in London for a lot longer and I probably would have done a lot more with the company I worked for, the Sugarman Group. I adored them. I had such a great time working with that company and still keep in touch with a lot of them or with the owners, so I probably wouldn't have done the things I've done. What actually happened was that when I said to them I'm going to come to Australia and follow this guy, after they told me I was crazy. A couple of days later they came and said will you open an office for us in Australia? So I came to Australia Like that would never have been. That was never on our roadmap at Sugarman Group. It was never something we talked about, and so a couple of weeks later, I found myself in Australia with two of our UK staff starting an office. I mean I had no idea what I was doing. So I did that for three years with the Sugarman Group. So I think just the fact that that happened wouldn't have happened if I hadn't met him.
Speaker 3:I think when we decided to move up to Queensland and go out on our own and do our own thing, you know he had to keep a real job, someone had to pay the bills.
Speaker 3:But he really quickly from the outset was getting involved and getting me set up and you know all the things that we needed to do to have the business operational. He did. And I think when he joined two years in, it took him a little while to work out what his place was, and it probably wasn't until I had each of the children, the three babies that we've had that he really leaned into each of those opportunities and just carved out more and more and more of a role and, to be honest, now I think if we go and leave he is the person that is most needed in the business. You know he's become so critical in the operational side and I think his skill set completely complements mine. It would have got to a point a number of years back where I would have had to hire a COO or an orbit to help me to get it beyond where it was, and probably the two years in when he joined I probably would have started to plateau pretty quickly after.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really interesting point, because that collection of skills so, just I assume in that telling that it was your dream, like you had the vision and yet his skills were able to really support it. Yeah, so when that comes to that two year spot and he's looking for, like, how he can be meaningful in the business, do you think he's there now? Does it matter if it doesn't start as your dream Like has he created it into his own dream?
Speaker 3:I think it's ours Like. I think in the beginning I was more just, let's have a recruit. I didn't really know what I wanted it to be and, to be honest, you know the Shugman group that I had run in Sydney. When I left there I think there was about 12 or 15 of us that I'd grown that business to. So I didn't know anything bigger than what I'd done with them. So I probably didn't have any big. Did you have this big vision? And it's like I never thought it would be this big, and where it's got to now has been a culmination of our skills coming together. That was never the first year. I had a piece of butcher's paper and I said I hope I have like four staff and maybe an office and maybe I can afford to pay everyone. Like that was the dream, you know. So even now I don't. The dream's not got an end point. Yeah, I'm just like I'm still excited.
Speaker 2:There's still more to go and you know, we, you know, especially for international women's day, we we that slogan of if you can't see it, you can't be it. It makes me think about what you've created because, ultimately, you never saw it no never saw that. So how do you create something that you've never seen?
Speaker 3:I think in a way actually I have seen it now that I think about it because the Sugarman's were owned by Paul and Marlene Sugarman and they were a husband and wife duo with quite opposite skill sets. So in a way I'd grown up with them in my UK career, so I'd seen a husband and wife work together, but I saw them at the end, you know. So when I joined the Sugarman group, you know they were a couple of years off, ready to sell and and move on from the business. Um, I didn't see the earlier stuff so so I kind of had it, I had something, but I hadn't seen all the years and all of the hard work that they would have put in to get there. Um, I think for me it was more just. I've just continued.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I haven't had to be someone ever that was like, oh, I can see it. Therefore, if I can't see it, I don't know if I haven't had to be someone ever that was like, oh, I can see it. Therefore, if I can't see it, I can't be it. I was always like, let's just have a go at that, let's see what that looks like. That's never been a limiting factor for me that I can't see it. I think that is a challenge. I can't see it.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I wanted to bring out, because my partner has vision and I've often thought I don't see things like that, like she can see an open area and see what could be there, like what could be built on it, for example, and all I see is the dirt, you know, I just don't see it, and so sometimes we think that's a limitation. So I am happy of what you just shared, because you don't have to see all the steps yeah take that first one you've.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you've just kept taking one step after yeah, and here we are this is it so on, that this is possibly the same answer, but we often talk about the difficulty, because I think it is difficult to raise three children, to run a business at the magnitude that you have, that you and norbert have been raising these children. How has has being a mother actually helped you as CEO and as a leader?
Speaker 3:I think, in a couple of ways, I think I've probably got more of an understanding. We've got a very female heavy business here as well, so we've got a lot of mums. So I think, having been there and I think I've got more kids than any of the mums in our business like I've got more empathy and more. You know, I understand the challenges that women face. I very much am aware of that, and I experienced that firsthand and the guilt and the pull and all of those feelings I get that. I think, though, what it has helped is that I've had to really lean into what is my superpower. Helped is that I've had to really lean into what is my superpower. If these are the hours that I've got, I need to like be really laser focused on the things that I am really good at and my role in the business, so that probably pushed a lot of conversation with Norbert and I around where's your lane and where's my lane, and what are we owning? And and let's just go for it.
Speaker 3:And um, there's a lot of great women that work in our business, that are moms, are in our operations team, and let's just go for it. And there's a lot of great women that work in our business, that are mums or in our operations team, and it's the same for them. What's your lane? You know? A working mum, I think, can get so much. They get so much work done Like they are so focused. If they know what their lane is, they just swim. So it's probably just helped us to be a little bit more focused. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like you guys are good communicators, or do you get it wrong a?
Speaker 3:lot before you get it right. Oh yeah, so much Like, I think, something I've learned the hard way the last few years even when you think you've communicated it enough, you need to say it 10 more times in 10 different ways and you still probably haven't communicated enough. And we've gone through a lot of change these last few years with systems and, um, you know there's there's some that we've done well, there's some we haven't done well. You know that we thought we'd done really well.
Speaker 3:So I think I think communication to what maybe is a strength and a weakness is also being a husband and wife team, because we can have conversations on the way home and then we're like, yeah, great, we're going to move on with that, but we haven't brought everyone else in the back of the car with us. You know, we're just going yep, we're going to do this, we're going to do that Yep, we can change that today.
Speaker 2:I want to talk about some of the ballsier moves you've made in your career, like you know registering with a recruiter in the UK only to realize you were more interested in her job than OT you kind of described that a little bit. Starting a company in Sydney for a UK affiliate, the Sugarman Group, at such a young age, deciding to move back to Brisbane and launch CMR. Strengthening your team during COVID by doubling your office space from the previous year of 2021. And recently starting a podcast when you had no idea how to do it. So what is it in you that has you just go for it when there's no guarantee of an outcome?
Speaker 3:I think, you know, I've just always there's times where I've had a gut vibe and gone. I just need to do this. You know, I think when we, when we doubled the office space in COVID, everyone thought we were crazy. But I just felt like I feel like if you build it, they will come, and I was like I know that people appreciate this work from home, but I think, fast forward, we're going to realise that people are really lonely and we're going to be losing skills. It's going to be really hard to train people and there's going to be some great positives but there'll be some negatives and if there's a really nice space they can come back to, we can create that, I think. I think that will bring back that collaboration and, um, that was a gamble and it paid off and, um, it's been a real positive.
Speaker 3:I think, um, you know, sometimes there's been moments where I've just gone you know what, we're just going to do it and see the podcast. I'd been talking about it for ages and then I'd read that book and went you know what? We're just, if we don't do it, someone else can do it. We're just going to do it and I kind of set the wheels in motion that we couldn't not do it. So you know, sometimes when I'm um, I'm not sure, but I kind of lean in, I go, I'm like I would rather just start rolling that ball down the hill and then we're all just going to like run down after it and let's just see what happens. And you know what we might it might actually be okay and or wherever we end up might not be where we hoped we would end, but we'll have learned a lot along the way.
Speaker 3:So I guess I've just always grabbed opportunities and, um, you know, even coming back out to Australia, it was kind of that was the best opportunity presented at the time. You know, when I wanted to, I didn't want to be in OT and I was like I'm interested to be a recruiter, I've got nothing to lose, let's give it a go, and if it doesn't work, I'll just go on a trip. I think, from memory, they even thought the same, because they gave me a three-week contract. You know, when I joined the Stringman Group, I was on a contract and they were like we're not really sure about this and I was just like I don't know what you guys do to make it permanent. I was thinking, god, I was gonna go to croatia, but like I'll do it like I'm I'm fine, so yeah, I've just I feel like, well, what's presented right now, this is, this is an opportunity, and let's see where it takes me, and like would your parents have known that you would make ballsy moves one day?
Speaker 2:would they be like? Are they surprised at the way that you grab opportunities?
Speaker 3:I think I think they would be. I don don't think, cause I'm not traditionally. I would say my husband is more of a risk taker. I'm probably a bit more like oh, let's think about that in a way, but I don't know why. With work I'm just like let's just go. And maybe it's the people around me. I think. Yeah, I definitely think they probably thought in the beginning like what are you doing? You're kind of hopping around, but I love that they didn't put pressure on. It was like yeah, do this, yeah, do this. They've always, whatever the decision's been, they've always supported it and said go for it. And I suppose not having someone tell me no or don't has just given me the freedom to have a go. And nor would it be the same. Yeah, just see what happens.
Speaker 2:I have noticed that we we as humans have different rules for courage, let's say, or taking a risk in certain areas over others, and even in relationship. I noticed that you know where I'm courageous, maybe my partner's not, and vice versa. So there is, I don't think sometimes it is. We paint someone with you're just courageous. Or I even called you. I could have said you're ball. We paint someone with you're just courageous. Or I even called you. I could have said you're ballsy, but maybe you're just ballsier here, like you feel more at ease, more safe, to make that yeah okay yeah, so that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Um, and yet I can't not ask do you, do you get fearful, doubtful, do you get uncertain, do you toggle with things in your mind, and how do you manage all of that?
Speaker 3:yeah, oh my god, all the time like um, I think, because I've never done this before. You know, I always go through periods where I'm like I've never been and I'll say something I've never been a CEO of a business this big. You know, I've never, I've not come from another business coming in like I know what I know and you know, at go God, I'm only the CEO because I own the place. You know, like I have that go around in the back of my head.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And you know, sometimes I'll make decisions, but I'll, you know, I think, to deal with that. That's where I probably seek a bit of counsel from those around me and also those that will challenge me. You, from those around me and also those that will challenge me, you know, not just ones that go, yeah, cheerleaders, like yeah, there's times you need a cheerleader and there's times you need the person that goes I don't know about that Like, let's just slow for a minute, and I feel like I've got a balanced group around me, I think. Coming back to that data piece again, you know, when I'm doubtful, I've learnt to go to the numbers and go actually yeah, that's why I feel like that that's not okay. Or actually I've misread that. I'm hearing a soundbite from someone and that feels like it's the whole story, but actually that's a really small part. I need to focus over here with the majority, so I just have to push through those moments and still celebrate the wins.
Speaker 2:And would you say you're getting better at owning it, owning who you are in like as the business continues to improve or become more successful? Do you feel like you own it more in terms of your role as CEO, or it's continuous reminding yourself?
Speaker 3:Probably a bit of both. Okay, there's, there's, um, I think I've come a long way and I think probably in the last few years I've probably really come a long way, but I still think, you know, I'm, even after all these years, I'm still experiencing things. Where I go, God, I've never, I've never experienced like, what do I do there? There are all those moments, but I think I'm I'm getting better at at having that confidence and owning those moments. But I think I'm getting better at having that confidence and owning those moments, or being okay if those moments don't go okay.
Speaker 2:Got it, and that's encouraging for people to hear that after 12 years you're still dealing with confidence, and so can you describe an area where you'd say you'd improved over the past decade in your business, or it can be a life example as well.
Speaker 3:I feel, um you know, doing things like the podcast I reckon wind back a few years I wouldn't have done that even. Um you know, the last couple of years I've been on a few panels and um you know that like I get oh my god, I get so incredibly nervous, you know like my.
Speaker 3:That for me, like, um, you know, when we have those awards, awards, getting up on a stage making speech, that literally like is my worst nightmare. I would rather just get the award post on socials but not have to do all those things. So I think I've got a lot better at speaking more freely and confidently in the group, where I probably would. That would have been time to be like oh no, thank you got it interestingly.
Speaker 2:I think that's sort of the magic that I observed was that you have an override that says I'm feeling a lot of things and I'm gonna do it anyway. I could really just see that in action and it was really interesting because I thought we all need to see that, because it's not that you don't have the same fears.
Speaker 3:I get. I get so nervous in my stomach. I'm like I can't. I, you know, I get so nervous, but I'm like I've just got to do it. And I think too, if I don't like, I always think what's, what's the worst that's going to happen. But then, if I don't, what's the message that sends?
Speaker 2:Yeah you, it was really exciting to watch you. Just, I could see that there was uncertainty, and yet the language was so let's get started, you know, let's go where some people go. I'm so uncertain let me just hide in the bathroom you know.
Speaker 2:so I could really see that MO in you and it was really exciting, and so thank you for like just being yourself. So what do you hope? This is sort of a probably a mom kind of question to ask, really. But what do you hope your children glean from the work that you and Norbert do at CMR? So picture them at school and this will probably be a funny answer now. But what do you hope that they say to their friends about what you and dad do?
Speaker 3:they, they have no idea like they. They literally um, they just don't. I know there was someone um recently who said you know, your, your mommy's, my mommy's boss, and the kids are just like, are you like? They're just not. They don't get it um, and we don't um promote it really, like you know. But but look, I just hope that they would just be proud that we've made a difference. Like I think you know, we had a.
Speaker 3:We had our annual pod decorating Christmas last week and all the teams came together and the last minute I said everyone who's got kids, bring the kids in and we'll dress up as Santa Claus and we'll give them little gifts and we'll get them to do the judging and we'll turn it into a family day. I like just seeing all the little kids and I think it's just. I think for them it's just, it's just that we've created something that's had impact and hopefully has left a legacy, like I think. I think for them to have really positive memories of the business and the people in the business and then, when they get bigger, to understand the impact that that business has had.
Speaker 2:Cool. I was thinking even about your beautiful new office space that. I think for kids things like that are really tangible, Like they walk into a new place where mum and dad work.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've noticed that one of the challenges when you're in an online sort of business. It's so invisible that an office space and and then like inviting the kids to actually participate in that yeah, I feel that that's what kids can like sink their teeth into. Yeah, yeah really cool.
Speaker 3:I understand like we'll talk a little about the work that that we do and that people do, but I think it's just. I just want them to also look at, yeah, like what we've created and the opportunities there for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do know that that's sometimes harder for kids. We were just a group of us doing some Christmas activity.
Speaker 2:We were adults and kids, and the basic fear all of us parents have is that our kids will be ungrateful yes, and that's why we had other words for it that were funny, but but you know, you could hear in all of us like such a desire, from where we've come from, to to make an impact or do something good, and yet we're so afraid that our kids won't feel it or we'll take it for granted or whatever.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it was a common theme we, um, we definitely feel that and I think because Norbert and I, you know, we both came from very humble beginnings. I mean his family migrated out here when he was three. They each had a suitcase, you know. So we've all we've come from very humble start and I definitely don't want our children to be entitled and I think that's why we probably don't amplify to them the magnitude of the work we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and somebody did say to me, until they see it for themselves, the contrast, they won't get it. That's kind of calmed me down a little bit because I get a bit, you know, pushy on that one. But speaking about, um, you know the work that you do. What is your motivation these days? Um, what gets you up in the morning and drives you to show up at work?
Speaker 3:yeah, the people like.
Speaker 3:I still, I love, I love the people that that we work with. I love, I love the impact that they're having. I love hearing the stories from you know our, our candidates that are out working and they have that. You know these great stories, just all of it. Like I, I'm constantly driven to go how do we make that better? There's a problem, we've outgrown that. What does that look like? What's that experience like for our candidates? How does that need to be better? Just the whole thing. It just still does. I don't think I've got to a point where, yeah, I'm bored with it. I still feel like there's lots to do. I actually, if anything, feel frustrated because I feel like there's so much more we could do and I can't get there at speed. That, to me, it feels really slow and I'm like, oh, there's so much more to do.
Speaker 2:And, I wonder, having a big company as well? Sometimes you possibly can't run at the speed that you used to no, and that's true.
Speaker 3:Like Norbert and I used to have to like change things real quick. But now I have a leadership structure around us and they'll say things like that's great, but that's a next quarter problem. And I'm like next quarter, I was thinking tomorrow. Tomorrow, that's what I was thinking. Can't we turn that around? So that is hard. That's awesome. Let's think about it. Why we never did in the past?
Speaker 2:You're like this is too slow. Yeah, that's very funny and I think that, yeah, just seeing that motivation for that drive, I mean it shows up in all the people that you work with, and so we can hear how passionate you are about things, how engaged we can hear how passionate you are about things, how engaged Do you have a well-being strategy?
Speaker 3:that helps you remain balanced or sane. Find it Like do you know what that's probably?
Speaker 2:my biggest weakness. Are you going to?
Speaker 3:say wine. No, that's my biggest weakness is, you know, I find I'm so invested in CMR. I get so excited that I would just I would start at seven and go to seven if I could every day like it's. It's probably a little bit unhealthy, um, but I I go to the gym and I've been trying to, like you know, work in more like actually schedule in more of those more well-being and actually schedule, well, more of those more wellbeing and actually schedule wellbeing in. Otherwise, I will always prioritise everyone else around me. So I think that's definitely something I've had to really consciously think about, like, what is wellbeing to me? What do I need to do? Knowing when I you know, when I've gone too far.
Speaker 3:We used to go through like a year where we wouldn't even take holidays, and now we've really gone into lots of little short, sharp breaks, but definitely keeping active. And, you know, for Norbert and I, trying to have like a date once a week where it's even just sitting on the couch is the date you know. Otherwise it could just be all consuming. I think that's something we've really had to work at, making sure that it's not just all CMR Does it help? Yeah, absolutely. And I think in the periods where we haven't been doing those things, we both go well, you know, like hang on, we've got a bit out of whack here. So I think it's it's having that discipline with a wellbeing strategy. I think for me like to get up at five in the morning and do a little bit of yoga and a bit of meditation. That is my ultimate start to the day.
Speaker 3:It's just being disciplined to it every single day you know, with little kids that are up and up and down the hallways all night. But when I do that, the team laugh and go oh god, you've been doing yoga meditation this morning. You're gonna be a lot today, you know, because I'm just like buzzing. Yeah, you have way more ideas I know like I've had these ideas like 5, 30 in the morning. Morning I was like this came to me, that came to me, I've got a great idea here and everyone's like oh God, she's been up doing the yoga.
Speaker 2:Sam's been in Shavasana.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Laying there.
Speaker 3:It's a lot for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really interesting because the series is who Knew that Was Work, and that title is based on the fact that when you're really passionate and loving what you do, like you said, you could do it seven to seven every day and yet even you, with that passion saying that it does make a difference to have some bat, that balance, I think, again, it's really important that we all hear that um, I think that's where the space and the ideas come right.
Speaker 3:otherwise you just there's nothing left in the tank, whereas some of the best ideas I get come from those quiet moments where you sort of think I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 3:Or there's been something ruminating for a while and then you go. I didn't even think to take that to that next level. So I think making space to think. Someone said to me recently I think you should have 30 minutes every day in your diary where you just sit and stare at the wall. I was like I would go stir crazy, but maybe I wouldn't. Maybe I'd get some really great ideas.
Speaker 2:Okay, you just had me. I have to share this that the creator of Spank, sarah Blakely, says that she, when they moved office space probably six times because we're moving rapidly in that business she moved very close to the factory where her office was and so basically there was no drive time anymore. She used to spend at least 30 minutes in a car. So she now goes the long way for a 45 minute drive so that she can have her version of staring at the white wall and she said that's where all her ideas come from. Yeah, I just think you've just said the same thing. Yeah, and I mean she just created those new. Have you seen these? The new runner heels?
Speaker 2:no I mean she's obviously those drives are working because she's created these um and it's on oprah's favorite, so it's going to go really well.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah, so, yeah, whether it's a white wall or a longer commute to work. I think you've just said it here, and others say the same thing that creativity needs some nothing space. Yeah, yeah, well, said, all right. So if you could just, you know, take us forward by offering some counsel to young women who are considering their careers. Possibly you could even speak to yourself like that, that idea of I did OT, I did well, but I'm not sure that's exactly for me. So what kind of counsel would you give young women? You know?
Speaker 3:um, I remember a lot when I was picking topics. There was always conversations around you know, be a teacher because you'll get school holidays with your kids. Do these things like pick professions that will work in with your ability to be a mum and, looking back now as someone with three kids who did many, many years of IVF, like trying to even get to be a mum. I I think it's around like finding your passion and doing the things that you love and and being okay to move through different moments and, um, trying, trying different things. I think it's okay. I think it's um, I wish I'd probably been more. I think I was probably comfortable with it, but I think people around there was a lot of judgment around going oh you're doing this now. Oh, you're doing that now?
Speaker 3:Oh, you're not you're not working as an IT anymore. Oh, you're not you know. So I think it's, it's actually be okay with, like this is your journey and you know, I think, when you, when you really start to think about where is it I want to be, you don't have to know, and that's okay too. And I think gone are the days that you're in the one profession forever like I'm in recruitment. Now, I'm not recruiting, I'm a CEO. It's different, you know. So I'm not even where I started out as a recruiter.
Speaker 3:I'm not even there anymore and that's still in my own business. So you know, I think it's okay to not know and it's okay to try different things and be comfortable with it.
Speaker 2:Nice. That's really. There's been a theme of what people have shared who have incredible careers, like you do, and so thank you for almost reiterating and adding some new little pieces there. Again, this is really spurred from what I would have loved to hear. So I'm so appreciative that I get to have this conversation with you, that you came on the podcast and then I got to be on a podcasting journey with you, so thank you.
Speaker 3:No, thank you, we couldn't have done it without you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us on another episode of In the Game Podcast. We hope we have inspired you with these real lived experiences of incredible women navigating their careers their way. We are all about sharing around here, so if you know someone who would benefit from listening to this podcast or this show in general, do it now and share the love. Pressing follow on the pod makes a massive difference. Taking two minutes to rate us for season seven means that more people will get to hear these stories, which will widen the impact. Join us next time for more captivating stories of female trailblazers who are leaving behind clues for that next generation of women and girls.