Addiction Medicine Made Easy | Fighting back against addiction
Addiction is killing us. Over 100,000 Americans died of drug overdose in the last year, and over 100,000 Americans died from alcohol use in the last year. We need to include addiction medicine as a part of everyone's practice! We take topics in addiction medicine and break them down into digestible nuggets and clinical pearls that you can use at the bedside. We are trying to create an army of health care providers all over the world who want to fight back against addiction - and we hope you will join us.*This podcast was previously the Addiction in Emergency Medicine and Acute Care podcast*
Addiction Medicine Made Easy | Fighting back against addiction
Unraveling Addiction: A Story of Fitness, Healing, Strength, and Steroids
Join us for a riveting discussion with Chris Terzakos, an insightful author and life coach, who shares his compelling journey from the gritty streets of New York City to finding solace in fitness. Chris opens up about witnessing the widespread impact of drugs like cocaine and LSD in his neighborhood and how he turned to exercise as his lifeline. Discover how the pursuit of a natural high through fitness provided a therapeutic escape, laying the foundation for Chris's message about the healing power of exercise in addiction recovery. Chris discusses how addiction has affected his life, including his experience when his best friend developed addiction.
Chris candidly discusses his own struggles with anabolic steroids and the path to sobriety. He offers insights into overcoming addiction, emphasizing the role of empathy and support in helping loved ones navigate their journeys.
This episode covers a wide range of topics from people who have transformed their lives through fitness, challenging the stigma surrounding addiction terminology, and highlighting how addiction affects friends and family.
Hello, my friends, welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy podcast, where we take topics in addiction medicine and break them down into digestible nuggets and clinical pearls that you can use at the bedside. Dr Casey Grover here as your host once again. Hey there, I am so glad you joined me today and I hope that you are having a great day, wherever you are. Before we start, I'd like to give my usual thank you to the Montage Health Foundation for their support of my podcast, and I'm excited to announce that I have a new partner on this podcast, central Coast Overdose Prevention, which is a nonprofit that operates on the central coast of California with a focus on reducing overdoses by educating the community and improving access to treatment for addiction. On to today's episode.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is very different than anything I've done before. Today's episode is an interview with Chris Terzakis. He's an author who writes about fitness and healing. Naturally, he connected with me through a service that matches podcast hosts and podcast guests. Initially it didn't seem like we had much to talk about, but it turns out addiction has affected his life a lot. He's had friends and family members with addiction and he was addicted himself to anabolic steroids. Now I normally, when I do interviews, ask an expert to come and educate me about a topic, and in this case, this episode was more of a mix. Chris is the expert in his own life story and he shares it, and I was also, in this episode, able to play the role of the expert for Chris about addiction. He would share a perspective or an opinion or an experience about addiction, and I was able to help him with the science behind addiction, to give us context so we could understand it together. All in all, it was a great conversation and I personally learned a lot, in particular, about anabolic steroid use.
Speaker 1:Now, one warning before we start. Chris uses adult language multiple times in this episode, and let me know what you think of episodes like this that are less traditional addiction medicine and more freeform. Drop me an email at ammadeeasy, at fastmailcom, or reach out to me on LinkedIn. My daughter, who is 14 years old and growing up to be an awesome human, thinks my podcast is horrendously boring, so I'm really hoping she'll like episodes like this. Speaking of which, before we go to my interview with Chris, my daughter would like to say hi, you're listening to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy podcast, all right, well, I am so excited to get to meet you and hear your story and learn from you. Why don't you start by telling us who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2:Hi, thank you for having me on your show. My name is Chris Tsizakis. I was born and raised in New York City. I've been in the construction business since I'm 17 years old. I was in a leadership role, still in a leadership role. I'm also a life coach. I wrote three books. I'm an author Hernia Without Surgery how to Increase Testosterone Naturally. And I wrote a memoir about growing up in the streets of New York.
Speaker 1:Let's start with your memoir about growing up on the streets of New York. Tell me some of the experiences that you had as a child that have helped shaped you as an adult.
Speaker 2:Growing up in the streets of New York is tough. You know I come from a tough neighborhood. You know back in my day I'm 65, but in my generation you know there was a lot of drugs. You know a lot of beer drinking. Back then they drank a lot of beer. You know all this liquor stuff came out later, but there was a lot of beer drinking.
Speaker 2:I witnessed a lot of people go down from drugs. I think cocaine was the key drug back then cocaine and LSD. So that wasn't my forte, though I tried to escape those groups that would do drugs. I was always into fitness. I didn't want to wind up like the way I see people you know losing a lot of weight, getting arrested, you know just almost like homeless. I said this can't be like a life for me. So again, I played baseball. I almost became a professional baseball player. I was scouted by two teams. But yeah, I almost became a professional baseball player. I was scouted by two teams. But I could talk a lot about addiction, what I saw. I helped people through addiction. I could tell stories about that and that's it, casey.
Speaker 1:Let's start with fitness because, as you and I were just talking, I'm really trying to incorporate fitness into how I treat my patients. Tonight I'm going to go do CrossFit and my patients are invited to come with me. And for me, you know, my life story is I had an eating disorder, I had depression, I used to self-harm and man exercise was like the anchor that kept me going. Talk to me about how you think fitness got you on the right path and maybe how it kept you from a not so successful path with addiction or homelessness.
Speaker 2:Okay, so great question. I love and I told my wife. My wife also is into fitness. But I told my wife around two months ago we were working out. I might've been having like a bad morning or something, but I looked at her, I took my headset off, my music, I said you know what, honey, I'm the happiest person all the years that I've been coming to the gym. I'm the happiest person here. This is a safe place and, to answer your question, I get such a natural high when I complete my workout. My endorphins, my serotonins, my body feels good, just everything feels good. Stress Don, it just feels good, stress gone, it just feels good.
Speaker 2:And in comparison to drugs, I know why people do drugs because they want that feeling, what I just said and what I get from the gym. So they're looking for the same feeling. But they're using drugs. Me, I'm using fitness and yeah, so that's what I do. Man, I'm 65 years old, I'm ripped, I eat healthy. Try not to have any addictions. I know what the addictions are out there. There's hundreds of different addictions. I try not to have any of them.
Speaker 1:So let me play devil's advocate here. So when we talk about diagnosing an addiction, let me play devil's advocate here. So when we talk about diagnosing an addiction, there's 11 criteria we use. Like, let's say, it's alcohol, so you drink more than you wanted to. You tried to stop but you couldn't. You had legal consequences. You had medical consequences. If you apply those criteria to me about fitness and exercise, I actually meet criteria for an exercise addiction. What are your thoughts on the idea that a person can be addicted to exercise?
Speaker 2:I agree with you. I'm one of them. Ah, makes two of us Perfect. I'm one of them. And however, oh see, I'm 65. In my 50s I would be in the gym for two and a half three hours. I mean doing all kinds of crazy shit. At the age of 60, I told my wife I'm going to switch this up. We're going to be in the gym no longer than one hour. So, whatever, we get in in one hour, that's what we're going to do and that's what I do. I go to the gym now for an hour. That's what we're going to do and that's what I do. I go to the gym now for an hour.
Speaker 2:But yes, you can get addicted to fitness. You can get addicted to performance-enhancing drugs. That is true. If you start dabbling with steroids, that can become addicting. I know because I did steroids in my early 50ifties and I loved the way I felt. But I know that I was harming myself and I just did a cold turkey. I got off of it and I'm all natural now. I'm natural about 10 years. I haven't taken anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's unpack that a little bit. So you know, addiction to anabolic steroids is very unique, because people do it for very different reasons than other drugs, for example, and most people using anabolic steroids are trying to get healthier, bigger, stronger, faster. And it's one of the reasons that why they often struggle to quit, because they feel like they're doing it to increase how effective and powerful their body is. Talk to me about how you got started with anabolic steroids.
Speaker 2:I was about 52 years old. I was going through a midlife crisis. I came out of a long, long 17-year relationship. I wasn't married to the lady, but it was like family. I raised three kids. I started going shopping, buying all kinds of clothes, feeling good about myself coming out of this relationship. I was buying cars, clothes. I was probably addicted to shopping because I kept buying sneakers every three days. Sure Right.
Speaker 2:So I spoke with one of the guys in the gym and I said listen, I want to step up my game. He goes well, what are you looking to do? I said I want to get a little more size. So he said okay, when you're done with your workout, we'll go have a cup of coffee. I'll tell you what you need to do. And that's what we did. I talked to him. He told me what to do, what to take, how much to take, and I gotta tell you I'm not here to um to tell you how how good it makes you feel, but it does, and it makes you feel good. It's's almost like a golden liquid that you're putting in your body and you can easily easily get addicted to it in a lot of ways. You like the way you look. You like the way you feel. It just does so many things for you. But you need to know that when you do it you're in danger, and that's what they don't tell you. When you do that shit, you're in danger, so I don't recommend it.
Speaker 2:Your testosterone level once you come off of it, you can't produce testosterone naturally because you've been putting the synthetic testosterone in your body. So now your production system shuts down, right. So I you know, and that's how I wrote my book I went on a program. They wanted to put me on TRT. I said no, trt is for the rest of your life. I don't want that in my body. Your blood thickens, your blood pressure goes up. You know just so many things. You got to watch you don't get a heart attack or a stroke. You got to donate blood every three months because your blood's thick. You got to see a doctor once or twice a month. I'm not doing that. So I said to my wife I'm going to figure out a program how to increase testosterone. Now, in the book, the first test my testosterone level was 81 nanograms. That's terrible, right. Anything below 300 nanograms, you need help, anyway. So nine months later I went on my program Everything plant-based, all natural. Nine months later, the second test is in the book. Also, just to show people who buy the book, it come back a little less than 700. Wow Right, that's impressive. That's what I say, casey. So yeah, so yeah, just be careful.
Speaker 2:We're not talking about addiction. You can get addicted to working out, you could. I had a sister. She's no longer here. She passed away. She was addicted to running. She was a marathon runner, but every day she had to run 10 miles, every single day. To me, I think that's an addiction to somebody else might tell me that's not addiction, so to me, I think that was an addiction. And that's how she died, casey. She died running.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. So a couple of things. I just wanted to point out to our listeners that TRT I'm assuming you're referring to testosterone replacement therapy Correct, yeah, so let's unpack this. So when we look at an addiction and with a lot of mental health conditions, we only make the diagnosis is if it's causing harm. So the reason I I I joke that I have an exercise addiction is I had a couple of injuries. I've finally gotten myself to a point where I take care of my injuries. I'm healthy. Nothing hurts. My exercise makes my life better, so I would not consider that an addiction. It has some similarities in the desire to do it. I get cravings for exercise when I don't get to do it. But let's unpack your sister because, yes, if it's harming a person's life, then we would consider it an addiction. So let's say, somebody's on social media and they use more than they want to, we probably wouldn't call that an addiction. But if they're using social media so long they lose their job, that's a different level. So talk to me about your sister's relationship with running.
Speaker 2:I used to ask her all the time. I said, paula, why do you got to run 10 miles every day? I said you know why can't you run two miles? She says, no, you don't know how I feel. I said, well, tell me how do you feel. She said I just feel great after my run. I go, we all feel good when we run. But why 10 miles? She goes because you know that's what we do. She belonged to the New York City Runners Club and I guess that's what we do. She belonged to the New York City Runners Club and I guess that's what they do. They run 10, 15 miles every day. So my sister suffered from bad anxiety. She had a lot of episodes on the New York City trains where she would pass out on the train from anxiety and she said that the relief was the running was to help her. And I get it. I get it. I get it. You got to do what works for you in life. But you know she died that way. That's how she died.
Speaker 1:What were the circumstances of her death? If you don't mind me asking she had an aneurysm, huh she.
Speaker 2:She ran with two other friends and from what they said was she died in less than two minutes. She was already.
Speaker 1:She already passed away yeah, aneurysms are incredibly lethal, just for the level set for everybody. An aneurysm is when a blood vessel dilates, so you put him in the brain, you can get him in the chest, you can get him in the extremities and man the. When the blood vessel dilates, it creates this sack like structure and the walls of the sack are very weak and if it ruptures man, those are, those are really bad you're right though.
Speaker 2:You're right though, casey, you're right. Right about that, because hers was in her chest. Yeah, I think it was called a pulmonary aneurysm.
Speaker 1:So in the aorta, the largest vessel in the chest, the aorta, can develop an aneurysm, and those I mean it's the biggest blood vessel in the body. If it starts leaking, I mean it's minutes. I'm curious, chris, what makes you think that it was the running that killed her?
Speaker 2:Because we did an autopsy.
Speaker 1:What did you find?
Speaker 2:From the autopsy. That's what they told us Interesting. That was her cause of death from an autopsy.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting that you say that I had a case, ooh gosh, five, eight years ago in the ER and it was really sad.
Speaker 1:It was a woman visiting from San Francisco, so north of me by about two hours, and here in the Central Coast of California we have a number of very popular running events, the biggest of which is the Big Sur Marathon, and she had come down for I think it was a half marathon.
Speaker 1:She's about maybe 50 years old, she was vegetarian, she was a nutritionist, no medical problems that they knew of, and she died the day after running a race and I mean we did CPR on her for like an hour because she's young and healthy. There was no reason that she that she that she should have died and ultimately, when they did an autopsy, she had scar tissue in her heart and they never quite figured it out. So I guess I would say is that exercise is probably like everything else that if you do it to excess it can cause harm is the way to go. And I'm sorry to hear about your sister's story, but on the flip side, I also have so many of my patients that are anxious and I wish they would run instead of you smoking cannabis or using alcohol, so I don't know. It's a little bit of a rock and a hard place with her story.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts? Yeah, I'm not a doctor Good thing I am. Yeah, I'm not a doctor, but if you're suffering from anxiety or any kind of traumas and you want to, you know, use exercise to relieve you. You can do it in moderation, that's true. You can walk on a treadmill. You can walk for 20 minutes or an hour on a treadmill. You don't need to run. You know Me personally, I'm against running.
Speaker 2:Do I run? I do three sprints, one minute sprints, as fast as I can go, because I do high intensity interval training. Yeah, I used to do crossfit years ago but it used to hurt me, used to hurt my back. It was just too much on my body. So now that I'm 65, I do high. I use the assault bike. Those are fun. Yeah, I do that for about two minutes, high intensity. Then I go back on the bench or curls, whatever I'm doing. So that's my way of training. Today, like I said, I'm riveted. I got a six pack. Here's a copy of my book. That's a picture of me on the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, looking good. Okay, I like to inspire people that growing old is the choice. So I grow, I'm growing old and I want to grow old healthy. I don't want to be sick. I don't want to be in a doctor's office, you know. So that's my choice.
Speaker 1:I won't take offense that you don't want to see doctors. It's funny. I tell this to my patients all the time. The more time I spend as a doctor, the more time I realize needing a doctor is no fun. I just want to come back to one thing you said.
Speaker 1:So just to level set, you know, somebody basically exercising to a point that it leads to them having a fatal condition is very unusual. So for essentially anybody listening, starting some sort of exercise program is a wonderful thing for your health. But if you feel like you have a problem with how you exercise, that's why we have doctors or physical therapists or trainers or coaches. I mean, I think when we're starting my program around getting people fit excuse me, getting people assisting their recovery with fitness, we have coaches there and they have to scale. So it's CrossFit themed and last night man that class kicked my butt. But my patients that are just starting don't go that hard, that fast. So I think the term they use in CrossFit is scaling right. So one of my patients has an exercise in several years. He's coming back to the gym. You know his workouts may be 20% as intense as mine, but for him that's 100% and I think that's an important message. I mean, that's usually why fitness equipment says you know, if you're starting an exercise regimen, you know you may want to consider seeing a doctor.
Speaker 1:I mean, personally, I fall into a unique group of individuals, usually young men, who are distance athletes, who develop heart conditions in their 20s and 30s. So there's a condition with an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, and I developed it at 26. And it's pretty common in or I shouldn't say pretty common. It can be seen in usually young, male kind of hyper-driven endurance athletes. So they see it in cyclists, we see it in distance runners. I mean, I used to brag in college that I would run more miles in a week than hours I would sleep in a week, and so actually I dilated two chambers in my heart because of that intense exercise. That's actually subsequently healed. But yeah and this is a really interesting conversation about can exercise be too much? And I think the answer is a resounding yes. I have not had anyone, though, make an appointment to see me because of exercise addiction yet.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, well, you did mention something that I recommend to the audience listening Before you exercise, you should see a doctor, get a full blood exam, get your heart checked and just check the car out when you want to go to the car. Check out everything, what's going on with you before you exercise so you don't run into those complications.
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, I mean that's why we do physicals in childhood and usually if you pass a childhood physical you don't have any signs of an inherited heart condition. That's really what we're looking for. And then if you maintain your activity into your 20s, 30s and beyond and don't have any major medical conditions, you're fine. I think it's more if you're stopping and starting. So like, let's say, I've got a patient who's coming off of alcohol and they're a heavy smoker and they're 50. Absolutely, you know, if we're going to start them on an exercise routine, it's going to be real slow for starters and then we're going to be seeing how they're doing. And certainly, you know, I have a couple of patients, you know, let's say somebody over 65, who's used cocaine and smoked. Their risk of heart disease is really high If they want to get into exercise with any intensity, we'd really want to make sure they're okay.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1:So tell me when you and I were connecting about this interview. You mentioned you've had a lot of contact with people with addiction.
Speaker 2:Tell me some of the people in your life that have had addiction. Well, my childhood friend he was my best friend. He's no longer here either, and it was drugs that got him murdered. Oh, tell me the story. He started. He started shooting heroin and I noticed I didn't know it at the time, right, but I kept noticing he was changing and I used to say to him I go, are you doing something? What's going on with you? No, I'm not doing nothing. You know, addicts are the best liars. No, I'm not doing, I'm just not feeling good. Today I got a headache or I think I'm getting a fever. He used to every day come up with an excuse, until one day I walked into a room and he had the, the band, all around his arm and he had the needle in his. And that's when I caught him and I said I started screaming, yelling. I was 20 years old. Anyway, to make a long story short, by him getting involved into drugs, he got involved with the wrong people and they took him out.
Speaker 1:Was this in New York?
Speaker 2:Yeah, new York City, yeah, and the way they took him out was horrible. The way they took him out. Was this in New York? Yeah, new York City, yeah, and the way they took him out was horrible the way they took him out, and that was because of drugs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's unpack a few things that you just mentioned there. So the first is is you mentioned that people with addiction are the best liars? What was it like with your relationship in terms of being able to trust him after this? Because addiction is a really frustrating condition to treat, because it takes the fight or flight part of your brain and makes it function more, and it takes the prefrontal cortex, the most human, intelligent part of your brain, and makes it work less. And so a lot of times, people are very compulsive and impulsive when they have addiction, and that's what makes the healing process so challenging is the brain has to heal and it takes sometimes months for that to happen. So what was the trust in your relationship like after you found out about that?
Speaker 2:Well, obviously I didn't trust him, but I loved him Right and I loved him. He was my best friend. We did a lot of good things together. We had happy times, happy days, you know, good food together, you know. So I love them. But I know I couldn't trust him. And then a couple of guys in the street, you know they would talk behind his back when they used to see me. They would say, chris, you know he's fooling around, he's dabbling, you know they called it dabbling, he's dabbling. I said I know he's dabbling. They go, you know, be careful with him, you know being around him. So maybe they knew something that I didn't know, that he was in trouble with some bad guys. And then, the next thing, I know I got a call from his mother saying that Johnny was killed.
Speaker 1:So it was brief. Then how long was it from when you found out to when he was murdered?
Speaker 2:Oh shit, Casey, no more than two months.
Speaker 1:Wow, how did this whole experience affect your mental and emotional health at age 20?
Speaker 2:It was pretty screwed up, man. Yeah, when I saw him laying in the coffin, I remember saying this can't be life, man. Life can't be like this Life is supposed to be like go to work and have a family, or, if you don't want a family, go have vacations. Go have a good time with your life. You know, look, I wear crucifix on my neck. Obviously I'm a believer. You know God brought you here. For what reason he brought you here? Because he wanted you to enjoy life. And when I saw him laying there, same thing with my sister. She died six years after he died. So I went through two deaths. And you know, just, you know, you shake your head. You just got to shake your head.
Speaker 1:You know so. So let's let's focus on this moment, because so my patients are so traumatized, so many of them have life traumas and so often their substance use starts after a trauma like this. So I'm looking in my mind at Chris on the day of this funeral and there's a path in the road. I've got pain, I'm going to numb it with drugs and alcohol, and then there's I'm not Talk to me about what that day was like and how you didn't just go decide to start using yourself that day, that day, man, you were talking a long time ago and I'm still offended by it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:You know I'm 65 years old. That happened when I was 20. That's 45 years ago and I still feel it. When you mentioned that day, yeah, just, I was just like I just can't. It's just unbelievable man, you know. And then all the other people around us, I was like, you know, they consoled me because they know he was my best friend, you know, and we were always together, always doing shit, you know. You know Good things, you know, not stealing cars, not beating up people, just good stuff, you know. And that day was terrifying, it was terrible, it was horrible. It really was a horrible time in my life that that day.
Speaker 1:Do you think him dying of problems related to addiction kept you away from drugs and alcohol?
Speaker 2:no, I was already away from drugs and alcohol. No, I was already away from drugs and alcohol before that when we used to go to like, say, back then they had discotheques where you'd dance in a discotheque. You know, if I had two drinks, that's it, that was my limit. He would go have like 30 drinks. You know, other people would have 15 drinks Me. I knew my limit Two drinks I'm done. So, you know, later on in the night I just asked for water. Some nightclubs I would ask for a double espresso coffee. You know, because I'm different man, I consider myself different. You know, I didn't follow. I wasn't a follower. Like I said, I'm a leader. I didn't follow. Hey, chris, have another beer. Nah.
Speaker 1:I'm good, so let's let's unpack this a little bit, and I apologize I keep saying that because we keep getting these great conversation points that there's such opportunity for learning. So what's interesting about substances is that everybody responds to them differently. So I'll give you an example. So what was your best friend's name? Johnny? So Johnny, when Johnny drank alcohol, that opened up a particular chemical pathway in his brain that he loved. He wanted more. When Johnny used opioids heroin it opened up that path in his brain that felt so good.
Speaker 1:A close friend of mine just had surgery and I got a text message after her surgery that oxycodone, which is an opioid, is the dumbest drug ever. I'm tired, I'm stupid and it just feels horrible. What's so interesting to me as an addiction doctor is Johnny and my close friend are both people and yet a fundamentally different response to the same substance. So that's where we say that addiction runs in families. Some of it is just how we respond to certain substances. I'll give you a personal example. So I struggled with an eating disorder and I had bulimia and man, that combination of salt, fat and sugar like donuts. Man, I could just. It was so intense the crave to continue to eat and I would just binge, and binge, and binge, and to this day, now that I'm in recovery, I can't eat donuts. And what's interesting to me and I want your thoughts on this is it sounds like your brain and Johnny's brain just responded differently to substances.
Speaker 2:That's 100% true. Yeah, 100%, you know. Besides, johnny, I was in a relationship with a lady and I noticed that she was always late. Every time she'd come to my house or we had to meet somewhere, she was always late. Every time she'd come to my house or we had to meet somewhere, she was always late. And I used to say to her why always late? Can you be on time five minutes before, ten minutes before? Oh no, I had to go do this. Oh no, I had to go get the nails. Whatever she said, right, it turned out that that was a lie. She was. But she said right, it turned out that that was a lie.
Speaker 2:She, she got hooked on cocaine. Oh, she was a cocaine addict. And how? I found out she was a cocaine addict? There was $6,000 missing from my bank account. I gave her one of my debit cards, not knowing she was an addict, and I went to the bank once and I saw oh, I'm $6,000 short. I asked her I can't mention her name because she's still alive today, but I'll tell you the whole story. So I asked her. I said I went to the bank. They're $6,000 short. She goes. Oh yeah, I know about that. I said you do. How do you know about it? And I don't know about it.
Speaker 2:No, I spoke to the bank manager. His name was Mr Thompson. I spoke to the manager and the money will be back in there tomorrow. I said, okay, sound like a great, great story, right, I go to the bank the next day. I walk in. I said, excuse me, ma'am, can I speak to Mr Thompson please? She said, excuse me, I'd like to talk to Mr Thompson, the bank manager. Can I talk to him? There's no Mr Thompson here. I said to talk to Mr Thompson, the bank manager. Can I talk to him? There's no Mr Thompson here. I said there's no Mr Thompson here. She said no. So now I know there's a lot, so I call her up. I guess.
Speaker 2:I started shouting, yelling loud and I say about two hours later my doorbell rang and her aunt came to my house and I said what are you doing here? So she said nah, so-and-so, asked me to come here Again, I can't mention her name, but she has a cocaine problem. She took your $6,000. I said, really her name, but she has a cocaine problem. She took your $6,000. I said really, oh shit. I said you got to be shitting me.
Speaker 2:I go. Where is she? She's outside in the car. She's petrified to come in the house. I said all right, tell her to come in, I'm not going to do nothing. She said Chris, you promise I'm not going to do nothing. She said, and the answer Chris, you promise I'm not going to do nothing, just tell her to come in. She came in crying. I said you want to get clean? She shook her head, huh, crying. Huh, okay, good, take the ring off your finger. I had bought her a ring, not an engagement ring, just a beautiful ring. Take it off your finger. I held it. This ring is going to get you clean. Okay, I'm going to go sell it and you're going to go to a program. I took her upstate New York to Veritas Villa to her inpatient. She had to stay there for 45 days. I sold the ring. I paid for it to get her clean. Today she has a family, two grown boys, and she's been clean ever since.
Speaker 1:Wow, do you still keep in touch?
Speaker 2:I do. In and out I do, but I don't. I'm married. I have a wife. You know that was like you know, years, many years ago, but I, I, I do know her brother. You know he tells me, you know, you know she's doing good, and you know what I feel good about telling that story, because that that, that's a good story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I'm, I'm curious and you know you mentioned, you know you're not in the medical field. I mean, I guess you're in kind of the health field, but not in like a doctor, nurse, pharmacist kind of way. You know, a lot of times when a loved one has an addiction, the response is anger and resentment and shaming. I'm really impressed that you said let's fix this. What do you think? What do you think was your mindset in that moment?
Speaker 2:I'm going to use a metaphor Okay, why have road rage when you can have peace? So I chose in that situation which there's another situation I could tell you about also that's even deeper than this one I chose listen, I know about the addiction. I know about my friend Johnny. I know where it takes you. I know about the lies. I said you know what? Just go get clean. Just go get clean, clean yourself up. You're a good person, you got a good heart. And that's exactly how it panned out.
Speaker 1:Well done.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sir, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gosh, I mean. I often joke that addiction is a team sport, because the family, the relationships are such a big part of it and a lot of times they're negative. What I can say is it's a great story and not everyone has that same story. So many of my patients have been to rehab 10 plus times. So whoever that person is out there, congratulations, kudos. And then kudos to you for saying, hey, you made a mistake, let's go fix it for saying, hey, you made a mistake, let's go fix it Right.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I even went to Al-Anon, oh yeah, when she was away, I went in the neighborhood at Al-Anon, I sat in the groups and they would talk about their kids, about their husband, their wife, whatever, whoever was addicted. I was part of that group. What did you learn? Oh man, did. I was part of that group. What did? You learn oh man Did I learn Boy, oh boy, did I learn shit? I used to walk out of there, like you know. Watch with my head the stories that I used to hear.
Speaker 2:I was like oh shit, my story is not even compared to your story. Forget it. So yeah, but it helped me a lot. You know, people just get caught up. That's why you got to be careful who your friends are. You got to watch. You got to watch what you do in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to come back to your story, because you mentioned having a problem with anabolic steroids. How did your relationship with steroids, what was that like? Given these other relationships in your life where you've seen addiction being so harmful, how did that affect you? And then, what was your story of getting off of steroids?
Speaker 2:Good question, man, this is a good podcast. I knew, see, you know you talk about the mind, right how the mind works. I knew that I might have been addicted to it. I knew it Because I know, because I would fill the syringe up even more than what I was supposed to take. And that's when you know that you're hooked, because now you're looking for more and I said I got to get off this shit. I told myself I got to get off this shit. I did it for four years. I did all kinds of performance enhancing drugs. I did Winstroll, I did testosterone, I did them all. And I said I got to get off this shit. Man, I got to get off this shit. I loved the exercise, I loved the way I looked. I loved the way I looked, I loved the way I felt. But I knew I got to get off the ship because I was taking more than when I was supposed to. That was the signal You're taking more.
Speaker 1:Was there a particular moment or were you just noticing a trend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was a particular moment, one time when I was injecting it I was like I just took fucking three cc's of this shit. I'm not supposed to take three cc's, I'm supposed to take one cc. And that's when I knew I'm getting up there, I'm going to stop this shit. I took everything. One thing, casey I took everything. I had All the supplies, the tools, everything right in the garbage and I said that's it, I'm done. That's how I did it.
Speaker 1:So let's look at this moment. So presumably, though, your use had been increasing over time. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:I didn't like the way I was feeling. I started not liking the way I was feeling on it. I didn't like it. After the shot you would feel feverish. You know, your body gets very hot because your blood pressure goes up. And I didn't like it. I said nah, I don't like the way I feel. This is not working for me, no more. You know I'm not feeling good and I said that's it, garbage time going to garbage.
Speaker 1:Did you go through any withdrawal when you stopped?
Speaker 2:You did. Yeah, you go through withdrawals, you become moody, oh sure.
Speaker 2:Right. You don't have any like ambition, Like, have any ambition. If you got to do something that could wait, you put it off, procrastinate about it. When normally you're on the ball, you start feeling a little depressed, your libido drops, and these are all the signs of low testosterone. Because when you have low testosterone you're depressed, you have no ambition, you lose your strength, you lose your muscle. So that's when I knew I got to get on an all-natural program to increase my testosterone, and that's why I wrote the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you ever have cravings to go back to testosterone when you were in that? Oh yeah, what were those like? Oh yeah, great question.
Speaker 2:What were those like? Awesome question, bro. Yes, yes, I remember maybe six months, eight months later I was like ah, maybe I should just micro. You know what they call microdose Sure. What they call microdose Sure when you're on TRT by the way, testosterone replacement therapy, that's how they give it to you you microdose. So I said maybe I should just microdose. I did like an adequate dose. She said, maybe I'll just take a little like a dabble. Guess what? I didn't do it. I said, nope, I won't do it.
Speaker 1:What made you say no?
Speaker 2:My program was working, I won't do it. What made you say no? My program was working. The way I structured to increase testosterone, naturally it worked. My testosterone today is 700 nanograms and I'm 65. You know that the average 65 year old man his testosterone is 350. I'm 65. You know that the average 65-year-old man, his testosterone is 350. I'm at 700, and I'm going to stay at 700 because I'm going to stick to my regimen.
Speaker 1:Wow. Let's go back to this craving moment because, in a very simple way, when we think about addiction, there's the three Cs that we remember compulsive behavior, consequences and cravings. And again, testosterone is different than a cocaine or an alcohol or a heroin. But I really want to explore this moment where you said I want to go back to it. How long did that last? What were you feeling? Was it like a moment, a couple of days? Tell me about it.
Speaker 2:No, it was a moment, and the moments, you know, they multiply, because now the mind, you know the mind is split in half. This part of the mind is saying yeah, go ahead, you can do it. And then this mind is saying what are you doing Totally? And now they're arguing with each other in your head and yeah, they were multiple moments, but they were only moments, so I didn't go back. There was no relapse. You know for me to go back to it, but yeah, they were moment. Today I don't even think about it, no more. I I just forget it, you know. Uh, so yeah, in multiple moments, and they weren't like, they didn't stick around for three days straight or a week straight, just a moment. You know what. It just come, it just hits you. Maybe I shouldn't, you know, just microdose. And then the other side says, whatever, shut up, or what are you doing? Or you know they, you know how it works.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah. Now that you're feeling good and working out and fitness is a big part of your life, do you ever get people that you encounter that are using fitness to stay sober from drugs and alcohol? Fitness?
Speaker 2:to stay sober from drugs and alcohol. No, no, if they are, they never told me that they had an addiction. If they are, they never told me they had an addiction to drugs. But I do know, I know the term is addict, even though they're clean. But you still call them an addict, right?
Speaker 1:So what we're trying to do in the world of addiction is there's so much judgment and stigma around the disease and, as we've talked about, it's a combination of life circumstances, genetic predisposition, brain chemistry, so I allow people to refer to themselves however they like. As a doctor, I like to say person with addiction, because addicts sometimes carries a judgment. But I listened to a woman speak two years ago and this is not her name, but she said I'm Michelle and I'm an addict and I'm proud of that because the person I grew into getting through my addiction is stronger than I ever could have imagined. So yes, it's a lifelong illness. I would say it's a person with addiction. But yeah, I mean, it's a lifelong illness.
Speaker 2:Right, I do know they use the word, you know, I'm an alcoholic. Even though they're clean 40 years, they still say I'm an alcoholic. Because I have a good friend of mine. He's an old time, he's 85 years old, he's an alcoholic, but he's been clean for 45 years. But he says, chris, I always say I'm an alcoholic because I have to always remind myself that I'm an alcoholic. The day that I don't say I'm an alcoholic, I could be drinking in the bar. So I got to tell people that I'm still an alcoholic, even though I'm clean. Yeah, a lot of'm clean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of my patients say that. Yeah, I mean I one gentleman I spoke to who I think is going to be coming on my podcast to tell his story. So he says that every day he wakes up and he looks and he sees figuratively his addiction at the foot of his bed and he goes not today and then he goes about his day sober.
Speaker 2:Right, so let's go back to your initial question. I know two people that got clean from alcohol and drugs, but they picked up another addiction. One of them is gambling, oh, and the other one another person was sugar. Ah, yes, like you said, eating donuts. Whatever, forget it. So I know two people that switched addictions from drugs and alcohol. One went to gambling, another one went to sugar.
Speaker 1:That's pretty common. So you know, when we talk about risk factors for addiction, an addiction to another substance is one of them. So when I was working as an ER doctor, before I practiced addiction medicine, somebody's got a broken ankle, it hurts right, and so I would talk to them and say you know, hey, you've got pain, it's a bad fracture. Let's talk about whether or not you're a good candidate for pain meds or for opioids. You know, have you ever been addicted to opioids? Because sometimes people think, like I beat it, I don't have to mention it. It's an addiction to something else, like, were you ever addicted to alcohol or cannabis or gambling or sugar? And then there's a family history of addiction and then it's severe, untreated mental illness.
Speaker 1:So yeah, essentially those brain pathways that lead to addiction to one substance. It's fairly easy to find something else that triggers those same pathways. So my patients, when they're, you know, a lot of times they come to me and they're like, okay, I got off this, now what do you think about me using this? And I'm like gosh, it's so easy to go between them. And that's, I guess, where I hope that exercise can be helpful, because you talked about how good exercise makes you feel those reward pathways in the brain from alcohol, cocaine, cannabis, gambling. Exercise stimulates them too, but in a positive way. So really one of my focuses is all of my patients. I ask them what are you doing to stay fit, even if it's just walking, got to do something.
Speaker 2:I agree with you a hundred percent. David Goggins I'm not sure if you know who he is. No, david Goggins, he was about 340 pounds. African-american guy, right, he's very famous today. I'm surprised you don't know him. He's big time at the fitness, but he was. He was 350 pounds, 340 pounds. He went to.
Speaker 2:His story was he went to the United States Navy to sign up for the Navy and they, they laughed at him. They go yo, you better go lose a hundred pounds before you sign up here. So guy walked out and this is his story. He walked out, he head down, he's like, oh shit, they were laughing at me, right. So he went out and he lost 100 pounds. Goes back to the Navy and says I want to sign up for the Navy, I want to become a Navy SEAL. They said you could go to the Navy, but good luck about being a Navy SEAL. He says, okay, he got into the Navy and I love his. Good luck about being a Navy SEAL. He says, okay, he got into the Navy and I love his story. Man, he became a Navy SEAL. He did everything he had to do to become a Navy SEAL.
Speaker 2:You got to see what he looks like you got to see his shape, his exercise programs. He's all over YouTube, david Goggin. I will definitely check him out. Good story he's got a YouTube David Goggin. I will definitely check him out Good story.
Speaker 1:He's got a good story. Well, chris, I am amazed this hour has flown by. We've talked about a lot of fun stuff. This has been a great conversation. Yeah, anything, you want to leave my listeners with as we wrap up today?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first, my website is healingwarriorscom. That's the name of my website. Everything's there. I have a YouTube channel. I'm on Instagram. I'm a life coach. I help people with eating. I help people with exercise. I give them all my tips how to make protein shakes. People make a protein shake just to make a protein shake. No, I do things different. I add more stuff to it which I can elaborate. But, yeah, what I want to say to end this podcast is whatever mission or goal you have in your life, please do not allow anyone to stop you. Go for it. Listen to me. I'm 65 years old. Go for it. Don't let anyone stop you from what your goal is. Do it.
Speaker 1:Beautiful words. For many of my patients, it's I got to get sober. Thank you for having me on your show, absolutely, it's I got to get sober. Thank you for having me on your show, absolutely. It's been an absolute pleasure. And that is the end of this episode. I had a great time interviewing Chris. I appreciate his lived experience and I am grateful for what we learned about how his life has been affected by addiction. I also really appreciate how open and honest he was about his own addiction to anabolic steroids. Thank you so much for listening and thank you for what you do. Treating addiction saves lives, thank you.