Addiction Medicine Made Easy | Fighting back against addiction

How A Firefighter Went from Injecting Opioids to Sobriety and Fighting Stigma

• Casey Grover, MD, FACEP, FASAM

Share episode

Evan Morgan, a dedicated fire captain from Central California, provides a raw and deeply personal account of his struggle with addiction, illustrating the harsh realities faced by healthcare professionals battling the stigma that comes with it. Once an ambitious student experimenting with drugs, Evan’s journey spiraled into dependency on prescription painkillers after a workplace injury. His candid narrative reveals the devastating effects of addiction on his professional life and personal relationships, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the internal conflicts of a first responder caught between duty and dependency.

Listeners will discover how Evan's life took a pivotal turn when an encounter with law enforcement acted as a much-needed wake-up call. The story unfolds to reveal the weight of maintaining a paramedic career while wrestling with a Dilaudid addiction and the unexpected relief that came with being honest about his struggles. With backing from his supportive fire department chiefs, Evan embarked on a rehabilitation journey at the International Association of Firefighters in Maryland, which ultimately led him to sobriety. Through his inspirational account, we explore the power of transparency and the surprising support system that can emerge when someone is brave enough to ask for help.

Our episode underscores the critical need to shift perceptions around addiction in professional settings, with a focus on reducing stigma through empathy and understanding. Evan's experience exemplifies how sharing personal stories can foster compassion and break down prejudices in healthcare environments. By shedding light on the prevalent issues of substance abuse and PTSD among first responders, we aim to promote a culture of support and awareness, encouraging others to view addiction through a more compassionate lens. Join us as we commit to creating resources and raising awareness for addiction treatment, inspired by the bravery and resilience of those like Evan.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy Podcast. Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover, an addiction medicine doctor based on California's Central Coast. For 14 years I worked in the emergency department, seeing countless patients struggling with addiction. Now I'm on the other side of the fight, helping people rebuild their lives when drugs and alcohol take control. This podcast is my way of cutting through the confusion and making addiction treatment easier to understand. My goal to leave you with real knowledge you can use, whether it's to help your patients, your loved ones or even yourself. Thanks for tuning in. Let's get started.

Speaker 1:

Today we are going to be talking about the topic of stigma, but not just any stigma. What if you are a healthcare provider and you have an addiction? You're supposed to know better. You're a healthcare provider. Talk about feeling ashamed and judged by colleagues. One of the colleagues I have at my nonprofit, jesse, is a firefighter and he introduced me to one of his fellow firefighters named Evan, who has a story to tell us about fighting fires, fighting his own addiction and fighting stigma. All right, good morning, it's nice to get to meet you. Why don't you start by telling?

Speaker 2:

me who you are and a little bit about your story. So my name is Evan Morgan. I'm a fire captain with the fire department in Monterey. I'm married to my beautiful wife, shanda. We've been married now for almost 13 years. I have three daughters Ava, elsie and Vivian. They're 12, 10, and 5. I've been with the fire service since 2007. Just a low-key family guy. All my days off just enjoy hanging with them, going camping in my trailer and going fishing, hunting.

Speaker 1:

You and I were going to talk this morning about transitions in life from addiction to success. Talk to me about where you want to start telling some of your story.

Speaker 2:

I can start my story from the beginning to the end. If you would like that, let's do it. Starting back in high school, I went to a Clovis High School Buchanan in Clovis, california, and I remember in the high school days pills and opiates and muscle relaxers were like a big thing and Oxycontin was going around and I remember it being like a cool thing back then to like party and dabble in those kinds of things. And I started in high school. I would smoke marijuana and go to parties and drink and then taking pills off and on and I thought that was like a cool thing to do back then but I never became like addicted to it and I never understood addiction and so through the years I would do that and then after high school I focused on my fire service career. I got away from all that stuff and was focused on just pursuing this fire service journey and around like 2005, went to the fire academy and I knew that you couldn't like party or do those kinds of things as a firefighter. So I stayed away from it for years and I would drink alcohol, going out to parties and drinking alcohol or and certain things like that. But I took it pretty serious staying away from that stuff and staying clean. And it started around, I think, 2016,.

Speaker 2:

Around that time, actually, when I really learned about addiction and what it can do to you and how it can take over your body and how you can become addicted to something. I had hurt my back at work, addicted to something I had hurt my back at work. And when I went to the doctor, he prescribed me 120 Vicodins a month. It was the Norco Vicodins. I thought it said take four to six a day. I believe it was what the prescription was, and I started taking the Norcos, like the doctor said, and I noticed I was taking the four to six a day and then, all sudden, I was taking 10 and then I was taking 12, and then I would run out and then I was calling people, which I didn't even think was like a big deal. I would call people and all of a sudden I found myself like buying them from friends that I knew that had them, or someone that recently had surgery. I would call and and ask them if I could get some of their norcos. And then so not only was I taking the 120 Vicodin, or however many I was prescribed I think it was 120 a month. I was buying some from people, so I'm taking 10 to 12 Norcos a day.

Speaker 2:

And then I really realized it hit me when my doctor cut my prescription in half to around 60. So then I was spending more and more money and this was causing a conflict with my wife in regards to how much money I was spending on on on this stuff. And I was lying to my wife about what I was spending money on and she couldn't really understand why I was pulling out cash all the time. And and then one day my doctor totally stopped my prescription so I couldn't afford to buy Norcos that many Norcos. So my thought process was why don't I try something stronger? So I started doing oxycodones. I think they were. They call them on the streets they're called Roxies. Oxycodone is like a blue pill Nowadays, from what I've learned through addiction and this job, now a lot of drug dealers mix fentanyl with them yes, correct yeah, so I believe it's 10 milligrams oxycodone, but they would mix fentanyl in them nowadays, but at that time they called them roxy.

Speaker 2:

So I was buying those and then those were more powerful, so I was spending less money and I started using those, but then taking them wasn't enough, so then I started snorting them and then. So then I got the guy that I was buying them. From that I just you learn when you're seeking drugs and you become addicted to something you can. I don't know how you do it, but you can see people that may be a user. You can read their body language and you start do it. But you can see people that may be a user. You can read their body language and you start like talking to people and you figure out a way to get it when you're like seeking this. So I got introduced to this guy that was like a like he just had pills. He was prescribed them, so I was buying them off him and then he had introduced me to Dilaudid. So that was like the next step up. So, from the Norcos to 10 to 12 to 15 a day, however many I was taking, and I would go as far as to look into like how many Norcos can I take in a day with it? Has this much Tylenol? And the max Tylenol for my liver is 4,000 milligrams a day. So if I take this many, there's only 300 in each one and I'm not really maxing out my liver. And I went into detail, like to try to tell myself like this was okay, it's as long as I don't take 4,000, I can take this many Norcos in a day. And then, like I said, it led to the Roxies and then the Dilaudid, and then I was taken into the next level with snorting them and then, being a paramedic and a firefighter, I was like you know what I could do? I can start an IV on myself and I can give it to myself intravenous. And this rabbit hole of addiction just overcame me. And here I am, a permanent firefighter for a city department.

Speaker 2:

At this time I had two kids, a beautiful wife, a home, and I'm over here at this point injecting Dilaudid into my arm. And I knew that I was severely addicted because my wife was just, she loved me to death and stuck by my side through all this. And I knew that I was severely addicted, but I knew in my head that I needed help, but I always thought to myself that I'm a firefighter, I'm married, I have a house, it's not that bad, I'm keeping my life together, I'm able to control this. I got to control this. And now that I think about it I'm like how did I get to that point? And I used to think like, how can someone put a needle in their arm? Wow, that is just like the deepest of like drug users and dirtiness. And there I was With a career as a firefighter and everything on the outside looked great.

Speaker 2:

And I got to the point where I was spending thousands of dollars a month. I would work overtime and I would have them send me a separate check for some of my overtime so I could hide that money from my wife and I would call in sick to work. I would leave work early because I would try to never use it work because I didn't want to get in trouble. And I thought if I just went to work cause we worked two days on, four days off if I could just power through these two days at work, I could just make it home, and then, right when I would get home, I would. I could just get high. So it was like a vicious cycle for a while that I would go to work and everybody would ask me like what's wrong, and I would catch myself sleeping and then at work more and just dragging. Or I would just leave halfway through a shift and make up some excuse to get out of there, or I would make it through a 48, just feeling like I had the worst flu ever, and then, right when I would get off, I would jam over to the guy's house and I would get some Dilaudid and I would get loaded and then everything was good.

Speaker 2:

And this went on from like 2016, from the Norcos to the Roxies, to the Dilaudid, from taking them to snorting them to IV use. So many lies to my wife and my family. We even bought another new house. So I'm like I'm even. I even got a new house and my wife's going through nursing school where she's about to be a nurse. Everything is great. But deep down, I was just hurting my wife and I'm lying to my kids and my wife and I'm using it and she knows it and she would try everything she could to help me. She put a tracker on my phone. I went as far as during my addiction like she would track my phone and block me, like to get money from the bank account.

Speaker 2:

My addiction had me at such a low that I would go to Lowe's, I remember, and I would buy something and I would walk outside and then I would go back and return it and I would ask for cash back. And I remember, for one example, I would leave my phone in the bushes at Lowe's and then I would drive because my wife thinks I'm at Lowe's. I would drive all the way across town and I would go to the guy's house, drive all the way back to Lowe's, get my phone out of the bushes and then go home Because my wife would be like you were at Lowe's for a long time. Oh yeah, I was just looking around and that's just one example of the things I would do just to not feel sick.

Speaker 2:

And so this addiction had taken over me and with the stigma as a firefighter and in the healthcare industry, it my fear was for people to find out that I was addicted to drugs. And you would go on these calls as a firefighter and you would hear the other guys talk about people like man, that drug addict look at that guy, what a POS. And so you hear these things and you know the stigma and as a firefighter you're always helping other people. So to admit you need help or for my fellow firefighters to find out that I was addicted to these drugs was one of my biggest fears. So my wife knew I needed help and I knew I needed help deep down and we were on the bridge of getting divorced. And I'll never forget, at the deepest of my addiction, her brother that I used to use with overdosed and passed away at 26 years old. So you would think that this would open my eyes to getting better and getting help right.

Speaker 2:

So this actually pushed me into a further addiction, because these opiates and these drugs I were using caused me to not know how to deal with emotional trauma. I would just get loaded to mask these things and these calls that I would go on at work. When you would see families that had passed away in a vehicle accident or like a fire or certain calls, you would go on. I wasn't dealing with this emotional trauma in a healthy way. I was masking it all with drugs and addictions. So he passes away and then my addiction became more severe and that was right about when fentanyl was like coming out and like just came on to the streets and was like out and about, and I knew about it and that was one of my fears too, and that's actually what caused him to overdose. We're going through this and I'm still using, and I actually like OD'd a couple times, which I didn't really know was overdose, but like I passed out in my vehicle and woke up gasping for air with a severe headache, I knew that I was using way too much. Like it would be at that point was like five times a day where I would just leave the house, my wife and kids. I would try to find a way to get money and I would go buy a pill, like five times a day, just leaving, going just to not feel sick, just to get through the day.

Speaker 2:

And it was August 21st 2018, I believe that was the day my wife had told me we're going to get divorced. I can't be with you. You're a severe drug addict, you lie, you're spending all our money. We could barely pay our bills. I can't have my kids, you know, with a dad like this and I don't want to be married to you anymore.

Speaker 2:

So this day that she told me that I had to be at work the next day. So I got on my hands and I didn't know what else to do. I'm like, I'm just lost and I said please, god, save me from this addiction, any way you can. Please save me from this addiction, just guide me in the right way. I got on my hands and knees. I prayed I'm crying. I woke up. I went to work. I prayed I'm crying. I woke up. I went to work. I worked.

Speaker 2:

I was working for the fire department and I was working as a paramedic on the ambulance. So that morning I go to work, I work at 24. I get off we were getting off at 7 am at that time, 7 am I get off from the ambulance and I go straight to the guy's house. I get some Dilaudid and every time I did this I would pass out if I did two doses. So I did the first dose and that morning and I was like man, that wasn't, that didn't really hit me like I wanted to, right. So I call my wife. She's like all right, we're at home, I'm making pancakes for the kids. I'll see you in a little bit. She's just an amazing woman that would try to like look past all this and all she wanted was a good husband, a good, honest husband, and a family. She's a very family oriented and all she wanted was for me to get help and get sober. So I knew that. But she wanted to divorce me because of everything and all the lies and everything that I've done Right. So I did the first dose.

Speaker 2:

The guy's house was like somewhere off the freeway from my house, like on the way home, so I'd always stop by. So I stopped by. I got it. I did my first dose. I pulled into a gas station, a Shell gas station, right by my house. You could see my neighborhood and I got ready to do the second dose.

Speaker 2:

Like I said, every time I did this I would pass out, which I think was overdosing now that I think about it. So I got ready to do it. I had a tourniquet on and right when I get ready to do it I was parked, crooked, a Fresno, a sheriff's officer pulls up in a pickup and he could. I had a Honda car. He could see right into my car car and he goes what are you doing? And he could see what I was doing. I was like, oh, I'm just uh, about to go home and he slowly got out and he pulled his gun out and he's put your hands on the steering wheel and I had this tourniquet on and my arms turning purple and I'm like, can I take this off? He's no. Put your hands on the effing steering wheel and so he gets me out, puts me in handcuffs and you would think at that point that you would think your life's over. But I swear to you, at that point I felt this huge relief and weight off my chest Cause I thought I can get help now and my wife's at home making pancakes with the kids. This officer is being super nice to me because I'm still in uniform at this point too. So this officer is super nice to me.

Speaker 2:

As we're driving down there, he calls my wife and my wife's keep him in jail. She was just like done with me. So I go to jail and I'm in there in uniform, just talk about the lowest of lows. And these guys in jail are like oh, don't worry, man, you'll get out, you'll be just fine. And I'm in there in uniform, just talk about the lowest of lows. And these guys in jail are like, oh, don't worry, man, you'll get out, you'll be just fine. And I'm just sitting there, I'm trying to collect, call my wife and she's just denying my calls.

Speaker 2:

And the minute I get out of jail which you would think like the same thing when my brother-in-law died you would think this is a time for me to change my life. What do I do? I go straight to the ATM and I'm going to walk to this guy's house because I'm thinking I don't want to be sick anymore. But my wife was smart and took all the money out of the bank and my wife and kids come and pick me up at jail. I turn on my phone and I have all these voicemails from my fire chief and right away I called my fire chief and I told them that I have a problem and I'm thinking I'm going to get fired. At this time I'm going to lose everything. I'm going to lose my house. And he told me there was an investigation on everything going on.

Speaker 2:

But I was just honest from the beginning to the end, and what I learned from this is, if you're just honest about what you're going through and that you're having trouble and you need help, that the stigma is that you will get fired. You'll lose your license. This wasn't the case. My chiefs were very supportive and so right away. There was an investigation. There was an investigation on my paramedic license.

Speaker 2:

There was investigation criminally because I got arrested and investigation and since I admitted I had a problem, they sent me to the International Association of Firefighters in Maryland. So right away I went through my court stuff and they said they agreed to send me there. I went there and this is a firefighter based rehabilitation firefighters from all around the US and it was a great experience. I went there and the lowest of lows and I came out of there, which we could talk about that whole process too. But that was a rough transition because when I went there they put me on Suboxone and all these antidepressants.

Speaker 2:

Transition, because when I went there they put me on Suboxone and all these antidepressants. So then I was actually like withdrawing from those eventually, when I came off Dilaudid, but anyways, by the time I got out of there I was sober. I came home, I was completely honest with work. I kept my job with that city fire department. The state worked with me to drug test me. I had to check in every single morning online and I would get chosen for random drug tests for three years straight and anytime I got chosen it would cost me like $60. So it was a long road but I stuck with it and by going to Celebrate Recovery, going to Bible studies, keeping my faith strong, having a support group, I made it through. I kept my job, I kept my paramedic license, I kept my sobriety. Through support group and taking it serious and wanting to remain sober, my marriage is better than ever nowadays. So through all of that, through all that hard times and once all that passed and since then I've built another new house, we've had another daughter my marriage is better than ever. I've promoted to fire captain.

Speaker 2:

I've remained sober and with my story I'm really passionate about the stigma.

Speaker 2:

This is my first time ever like sharing my testimony.

Speaker 2:

If I see someone struggling, how I would talk to them is try to relate to them on a personal level and share my testimony one-on-one and I noticed my testimony alone would open their eyes to where they would tell me what they're struggling with and I could help them what they're struggling with and I could help them. And my goal would be to get the education out to not only parents but high school kids, because I was that high school kid and I can relate to them on a personal level of someone that's lived it and someone that's overcame it and kept my career and not only kept my career promoted further on. And now my life is better than ever, living a sober life, and I feel like if we can educate those parents on what to look for and what to talk to their kids for and get the stigma out of the fire service and healthcare industry the way that they judge people and if we can get past that and educate people the right way, that we can actually save some lives.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, to your point. I go to a lot of schools. So I went to 21 different schools this year 35 different times and I talked to over 5,000 students. In fact, I will be at one high school today giving out Narcan at the pickup line for parents to pick up their kids. The tagline is pick up your kid, pick up some Narcan. First of all incredible story. Kudos to your family for sticking with you and your colleagues and to you to get in help. Talk to me about what it's like working with colleagues who don't understand addiction and they might view it as weakness or a moral failing. How does that come up in your daily work?

Speaker 2:

It came up a lot Like right after I got back from recovery. I had had one-on-one conversations with people that I knew for years and worked with for years and I just asked I'm like don't take this offensive, but how come you didn't try to help me if you knew? And one answer I got was I didn't want to be around you and I couldn't put my family around you. When I got back from recovery, one of the guys told me man, how could you do that to your wife and kids? And then another guy it's these little words in these statements that really hurt. Yes, we were watching a TV show or something. And then one of the guys goes man, that guy's a crackhead. Hey, no offense, evan. And I'm like what? No offense, I wasn't a crackhead. And I'm like, in their eyes, I'm a drug addict. And that's the fear of someone that needs to get help. And that's what I feared. What are they going to think about me? What are they going to say about me? And then when I got arrested, it was on the internet and I heard everybody was Googling it and looked what I was arrested for and saw that there was needles. And they were like wow, he's a drug addict.

Speaker 2:

I would like to just inform people that we're not drug addicts. We actually have an illness, which a lot of people don't believe, that they think oh yeah, an illness. But if you actually do your research and look into it, it can come from genetics, like my dad was an alcoholic, so it makes sense why I have an addictive personality. If they actually look into it and educate themselves we could reduce that stigma. But that was one of the hardest parts was going back to work and being judged, even though I was sober, and a lot of people will say stuff to your face. But you hear about things that they say behind your back which really hurts, and that's one of the biggest fears I feel in the professional industry, like a doctor or a nurse or a cop or a firefighter, is what are people going to think of me, and not only your peers but the public?

Speaker 2:

I would go on calls with patients and I could relate to them on a personal level, which I really liked. Working on the ambulance, which I didn't like working on the ambulance because it's long hours and a lot of calls, but one of the things I liked about it was when you're in the back of the ambulance, it was just you and the patient. So I could share like a brief overview of my testimony and I could relate to multiple patients that were struggling with addiction on a personal level and they would. Their response was amazing. Their eyes would open like, wait what? You? You're a firefighter, yeah, and I've noticed that with multiple people and then they open up to you and you can actually help people.

Speaker 2:

I've given people my personal number and I've invited people to celebrate recovery at church because it could be anything, not only pills or alcohol. It could be you're struggling with anything personal depression. But one thing I'm really passionate about is reducing that stigma amongst the healthcare industry of you can get help and a lot of people worry about their license too. But if you have a license and you have a problem and you pursue it and you get help and you remain sober, I think the chances of you losing your license are very low. But I think that's another fear that people have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, tell me so. I did the math and obviously it's not complicated math, but you're about six years sober. Have you noticed, now being this far in recovery, a change in the words that your colleagues use Like? In other words, have you seen your own life story affect your colleagues and how they respond to people with addiction? Do you hear less use of judgmental terms?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that department that I work for a new department. Now only a few people in my new department know about my past. I think some people, because the fire service is big but I think it's also small and people talk. I think some people know but they're like afraid to talk to me about it. I haven't noticed it here. But after that whole incident I was with my other department for about four more years and then I came here to Monterey. But yeah, I did notice when I would like educate people or talk to them about it they would treat patients different and I noticed it actually started changing.

Speaker 2:

On one call I had to talk with a guy that was bashing this drug addict dude, this guy's struggling. But he was calling him a drug addict and like I said the tweaker thing, and they would just treat people like less than human if they were struggling or they were alcoholics or they were homeless. And when I talked to him about it, like that's someone's family member, that's someone that just needs help. And then what really hit them is when I told them that would have been me. Like my wife was about to leave me, I'm using IV drugs, I was going to lose my career. Where do you think I would go? I would have been that guy and when I would say that to them it would really open their eyes and the people that I'd said that to really changed like their response to people on calls. That would have been me. Like I was going down that road I almost lost everything, like what was next. I would have been on the streets.

Speaker 1:

So I educate professionally on stigma for healthcare providers and what you just told me is the way we change minds the most around stigma. So my personal story is I struggled with self-harm, depression and an eating disorder and I don't look like I fit that bill. I'm a professional white guy over six feet tall. That's athletic Like. Nobody looks at me and sees that. And what's really interesting about how to really break down stigma is you make professional relationships like you've done your colleagues right. They see Evan as a successful firefighter and a family man. When you share that you have struggled, it changes how they think about others because they don't see the recovery. They see the people in active addiction. On calls and I've shared in the ER where I used to work people would make a bad remark about someone with an eating disorder and I'd say, hey, would you mind not saying that I suffered from an eating disorder? And the response was like Dr Grover, you, I never would have guessed and I'm sure you've had a similar experience.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, very similar, yeah, exactly like that, like when I said that that would have been me. Then it opens their mind like, oh, wow, he's right, and then they start being more passionate or having more compassion towards those individuals. Then you notice it starts with one person. Then another person that might have been super negative starts treating people different and I feel like slowly we can reduce that stigma if we keep working towards it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, when you respond to an overdose, what is that like for you? It's got to be somewhat triggering, but also empowering, because you feel like you have a unique ability to help. Talk to me about what that's like.

Speaker 2:

And so that's crazy that you asked that, because right when I came back from Maryland and all my criminal stuff and all the investigations, everything passed and I ended up getting demoted but I still kept my job. What's crazy is right when I went back to the field, one of my first calls I'll never forget was a fentanyl overdose in a hotel room where I worked and it made me emotional. It hit me on a personal level Like it could have been. That could have been me, but it's also what this has done has helped me with, like my street smarts. So these guys didn't know, like my crew didn't know, that this white powder, this guy, was snorting on the counter in the hotel room. They're like that's cocaine and I'm like no dude, that's fentanyl. This guy's diaphoretic pinpoint pupils and snoring respirations that's not cocaine and they didn't understand.

Speaker 2:

And me going through all this and educating myself, and what went on with my brother-in-law and which is not necessarily a good thing, but it's became a good thing is that I know a lot about the difference between benzos and opiates and the response to the sympathetic nervous system for like uppers and downers, and I knew that fentanyl was in everything and what this has done is helped me in my approach to overdoses, like I might not have known that fentanyl is in everything and that with that particular guy it took, I think, four doses in our can, yep, and we ended up bringing him back because I think it was that car fentanyl and we ended up bringing him back and saving his life. But I feel like that, my approach to it now, like it's given me those, unless you were like like yourself, like very educated in it. It's given me almost a street smart to it because I've lived it and I know what to look for. I think it's made me a better paramedic and a firefighter in regards to what to look for and know what's out there and what this overdose could be caused by.

Speaker 2:

You see, a Xanax pill and people don't understand, if they haven't lived it or educated themselves, that just because it says Xanax, that could be a pill, pressed fentanyl it's not doesn't mean that he's on benzos, overdosed on benzos, it could be opiates. Because I went on a call and the guy was like Narcan is not going to work, it's Xanax. And it's like you don't know that Xanax is pressed and also that, yeah, this is that. Everything I've been through has caused me to approach overdoses different, but it did trigger me that first call. But with time I don't even think about it anymore and I take that. I give that to God. My faith helped me, my wife helped me and also what really helped me, it seemed like it sucked, but the drug testing every day, checking in every day, that accountability for three years.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, accountability for three years, not knowing if I'm going to be drug tested because there would be bad calls. I would go on and work and because and you get these routines so like I would get off duty and I'm driving home and that was when I would go over there and it was like if I had a bad shift and I could easily go by there. And it's just this one time and for a while it was like a mental game. I didn't have the physical withdrawals, but it was a mental. I had to learn how to deal with the motion and deal with like I numbed everything for so long. I had to learn how to deal with it on a different, healthy way working out, reading, hanging with my family. It really. I think drugs really just numb everything, but you're not dealing with any of the trauma.

Speaker 1:

Well said. So you mentioned you've got a passion about advocating for addiction treatment and getting people into treatment and fighting back against stigma when you educate or talk to your peers about this. For those who don't have a lot of experience with addiction, what seems to stick with them the most or what are they most surprised by or most engaged by?

Speaker 2:

I think yeah, just sharing my testimony and what I've went through and how I was able to maintain a career and pay my bills but still use drugs.

Speaker 1:

My assumption would be is that it was that you are you and yet you have this past.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people when I share my testimony and where I'm at today. They find it hard to believe that you can maintain recovery and how do you do it, and everybody's different. Like meetings might not work for some people. What really worked for me is having that personal accountability with someone that's been through it, Someone you could check in, Like when you go to the gym and you work out by yourself, you don't work out as hard, but when you have an accountability partner that's spotting you or someone that's doing the same diet.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Or like you're doing a diet, you want to have that piece of cake, but you know your buddy's going to text you that night and be like, hey, man, you cheat on your diet. It makes you want to do good. So you can text him at the end of the day and be like, yeah, dude, I ate clean. I got my workout in today, so accountability is really huge for me. But yeah, I think just sharing with people where I was and where I'm at today really opens up their eyes towards addiction.

Speaker 1:

How often do you come across patients that are afraid to get transported to the hospital or talk to a health care provider because they're afraid they're going to be judged? And when you do hear that, how do you handle that as somebody with lived experience?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I actually had a call the other day of a pregnant lady that wouldn't tell us exactly what was going on and I just tell them you need to pursue this treatment and get help and not worry about the stigma or how you're going to be judged. You need to get sober, because that's all I did was worry about how I was going to be judged. You need to get sober because that's all I did was worry about how I was going to be judged and I worried about what people were going to think and this turned into. Now I'm able to share my story to help people struggling and guide them in the right direction to pursue recovery.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we, unfortunately, one of our colleagues on the Monterey Peninsula died. He refused to go to the hospital because he thought he was going to be judged. So the other addiction doctor in our practice is my wife, Dr Reb Close, and she worked with this individual. He was injecting opiates and he developed a wound where he was injecting and it got infected. He developed a wound where he was injecting and it got infected and he called Dr Close and was like can I get some antibiotics?

Speaker 1:

And she is an addiction doctor who used to work in the ER, like I did, knew that this could get bad fast. It can go to the heart and affect one of the heart valves. And she said I can give you antibiotics, but I don't think it's going to be enough. I think you need to go to the hospital, You're going to need blood work, You're going to need IV antibiotics. And his response was no, they're going to treat me like garbage. And he died of sepsis, of overwhelming infection. And the way I say it and I tell his story when I teach about addiction, particularly to healthcare providers, is he died of stigma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, a hundred percent. When you said that, it clicked in my head. It's something I went through during my addiction that I didn't share and I really haven't shared this with anybody. But when you shared that with me right now, I thought this is really important. So when I was using IV drugs, I actually developed a sepsis as well in my arm and I was in the same position that this gentleman you're talking about was in right.

Speaker 2:

So I had this abscess on my arm where I injected and it grew and I was wearing long sleeves and it was summer 110 out in Central Valley and my wife's like where are you wearing long sleeves? And I started to feel sick and it was warm to the touch. So I was so afraid to go to the doctor, go to the hospital. By the way, they were going to judge me, just like this guy you're talking about that, and I'm not afraid to share this because it could help someone. I actually took a knife and I heated it up and I cut myself where the abscess was and I went to the ER because I knew as a medic that this abscess, this is going to cause me to become septic and I'm going to go into septic shock and I'm going to die from this. But I was so afraid to go in there and admit I had a problem and be judged that I took a knife and I cut my right over the abscess and I went to the ER and I said I cut myself, I made up some story.

Speaker 2:

I don't remember what I made up and this er doctor said that's a superficial laceration, you have a deep infection. And they knew, like they're not, this is a surgeon at a big hospital level, one trauma center, like he's no, no fool. He knew that this is a superficial laceration, but something he even said like it's like something, punct, you have a deep infection. And I wasn't judged and I even went as far as after he. They cut, they, I forget I think they cut it, drained it, packed it antibiotics and I had to go back and get the packing removed. But I went as far as after that.

Speaker 2:

Do you think you could prescribe me some Norcos for the pain? And I think this doctor knew. But he gave me 800 ibuprofen. But that's pretty crazy. You said that because it clicked in my head that I went through the same exact thing and I think people are just so afraid and that stigma is so strong and that's what caused him to die was worrying about what other people thought, and now he's no longer with us and I would have died of sepsis or infection or kidney failure or whatever would have happened if I didn't go get help. But I was so afraid that I was willing to harm myself and cut myself with a knife to lie about my addiction and my IV use just to get that taken care of. It's just the stigma is so strong and we're so afraid of what other people think. I wish we could just get away from that and help people in the right direction to get help.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, evan, the way I describe it is when I talk to people publicly whether it's schools, parents, other healthcare providers about addiction. I tell them I just love my patients. They are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met and addiction is one of the most horrible diseases I have ever treated and I try to make that separation where the person and the disease. I describe them separately. And I think that gets into what you're saying is you mentioned when I asked you who you are and what do you do. Your identity is as a dad, a family man and as a firefighter, but addiction is part of your story. So that's how I think of it in my mind is addiction can make really good people do some really bad things because of how it affects the body?

Speaker 2:

It made me do a lot of things that I would never even think of with a clear head. But when you're sick, the only thing you're thinking about is just not being sick, like all the lying and the stories I said about going to the store and taking out money and just leaving my family to go get loaded. It's just, it makes, it turns you into someone you're not and it's just.

Speaker 1:

it's a very, very powerful thing, so obviously things are on the up and up for you. You said you're now a fire captain. What do you have on your to-do list going forward?

Speaker 2:

fire captain, what do you have on your to-do list? Going forward, you know, going forward, I've always been really passionate about pursuing some sort of way of getting involved in recovery and I feel like God God put Jesse on my ship to meet you and to do this Cause I've always wanted to share my testimony but I hadn't gotten to a point yet where I was comfortable because it was so new. And now that I've gotten to a point where I'm not afraid to talk about it, I'm actually sick of the stigma. Going forward, I would love to become a part of your program. If there's an opening where I could go speak, if I could share my testimony at schools or even amongst other firefighters and I could help one person would be my goal. Or and there's also positions within CAL FIRE, maybe one day we have a wellness program.

Speaker 2:

I took a class the other day where it was like one of the higher up CAL FIRE guys for that program and I'm not going to be negative, but I just felt like he hadn't really lived that and wasn't like super passionate about it.

Speaker 2:

The way that he was like describing recovery. I feel like I could go into something like that and help others on a professional level, but I've always wanted to like, since recovery, get involved in helping others somehow and reducing that stigma and getting my testimony out there, and if I could help one person or save one life and educate parents on what to look for and how Narcan is not a bad thing, like, maybe, how handing out condoms is viewed If you're handing out a condom, you're promoting sex no, promoting safe sex. We're not handing out Narcan to promote drug use. We're trying to get this out there to save lives. It's like people would rather put a blindfold up and avoid it instead of take it head on and talk about it and realize this is a major problem. There's people dying every day. If we could educate people in the right way, we could save lives.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I saw a great t-shirt on Amazon this morning. The only thing that naloxone enables is breathing. Yeah, oh yeah. There's all sorts of opportunities for you to speak to people and I think the best way I can share how you can be helpful is two things. The first is to consider the words that we use. Some words inherently have judgment, like clean and dirty. Right, I'm going to be dirty for this substance on my urine. I tell my patients to know your urine drug test is going to be abnormal, dirty. Right, I'm going to be dirty for this substance on my urine. I tell my patients to know your urine drug test is going to be abnormal because, right, dirty, that there's a judgment there or something like junkie oh, the J word. I just I can't do it.

Speaker 1:

Educating your colleagues that alcoholic the better word is a person with alcohol addiction or a person with a problem with alcohol. That's the first thing, is trying to avoid using terms of the judgment hall. That's the first thing, is trying to avoid using terms of the judgment. And then the second thing is you have the ability, like me, to show up in a circumstance and not look like a person who's had a difficult life with addiction or eating disorder or whatever, and it's to start the conversation and to start the relationship as just Evan. I'm Evan, I'm a fire captain, I'm a family man. And then, once they trust you, that's when you let them know about the past and it helps to break down that stigma because they know you as the family man firefighter. And only then do they learn that family men who are firefighters can also have struggles too.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so yeah, we'll plan to connect and we'll keep in touch around upcoming events. I'd love to have you speak and I want to ask, as we wrap up how big of a problem is addiction in firefighters?

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's huge. There's so many firefighters struggling, it's everywhere and I think, like we talked about it, is that stigma to actually like, pursue help is letting your guard down, and how am I going to be judged and how we're perceived by the public that, like, all we do is help others. How could we need help? It's so bad amongst firefighters drinking alcohol and drugs. It's I don't even know what the percentage is, but it's everywhere amongst us and it's guys you wouldn't even think of. But it doesn't matter what rank, doesn't matter if you're a brand new firefighter or you're the head chief, it's all throughout the ranks and it's a very bad issue and a lot of it comes down to PTSD as well not looking out for each other and like for years I've been doing this for quite some time now and for years, when you would go on a bad, traumatic call and you would see all this bad stuff it was, you would get a text message on your way home you doing all right.

Speaker 2:

And it's mental health. We need to like, emphasize, we need to focus on mental health as well, because that mental health leads to addiction, like myself, instead of having the right outlets and the right help, like we give. We give guys a phone number to call hey man, like if it's bugging, you call this number but then there's rumors that phone call reported back to your work and so people are afraid if I call this number for help they're going to report it back to my work and then they're going to drug test me and I'm going to lose my job. And in the for like I said for years, it was like are you doing all right? That was like the emphasis on our mental health and everybody, all firefighters say our response naturally is yeah, I'm good. It's like walking by someone in the store hey, how you doing, I'm good, even though you're doing crappy and you're having the worst day of your life. You naturally everything's all right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have to say it's the same thing in the emergency department. Post-traumatic stress is a major problem. I actually just found out that I have a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder from my work in the emergency department. That would be a fantastic topic for us to come back and speak about.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I would love to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I got to say thank you for sharing your story, thank you for your advocacy, and I'm going to plan to talk to Jesse this week about thinking about putting together some resources for first responders, because you are a hundred percent correct that the lives that you and I have lived taking care of emergencies has a toll on us, and absolutely so many people use substances just to cope.

Speaker 2:

Yes, sir, I'm looking forward to speaking with you soon. Thank you for your time and having me on here, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to the Montage Health Foundation for backing my mission to create fun, engaging education on addiction, and a shout out to the nonprofit Central Coast Overdose Prevention for teaming up with me on this podcast. Our partnership helps me get the word out about how to treat addiction and prevent overdoses To those healthcare providers out there treating patients with addiction. You're doing life-saving work and thank you for what you do For everyone else tuning in. Thank you for taking the time to learn about addiction. It's a fight we cannot win without awareness and action. There's still so much we can do to improve how addiction is treated. Together, we can make it happen. Thanks for listening and remember treating addiction saves lives. Bye.