Addiction Medicine Made Easy | Fighting back against addiction

Stigma 1: The Other Side of Addiction - Finding Light After Darkness

• Casey Grover, MD, FACEP, FASAM

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This episode is the first episode of a four part series on stigma.

This episode is done in collaboration with Central Coast Overdose Prevention (CCODP) and was made possible by California Overdose Prevention Network Accelerator funding from the Public Health Institute's Center for Health Leadership and Impact.

In this episode, Ana Alamo shares her powerful journey from addiction to recovery, revealing how her personal struggles now help her connect with clients as a peer support specialist.

• Born and raised in Salinas, Anna experienced childhood trauma at age five that shaped her early years
• She started using cannabis in middle school and developed a pattern of fighting and substance use
• Her use progressed to using pills including Norcos and Xanax from age 20-25
• Legal trouble became her wake-up call after being involved with fentanyl-laced pills that caused someone's death
• She now works as a peer support specialist and recently graduated with an Associate's degree in Addiction Studies
• She uses her lived experience to connect authentically with clients, especially teenage girls
• She does her best to balance accountability with compassion 
• Family took approximately four years to fully trust her again
• Therapy helped her develop vulnerability and begin the ongoing process of self-forgiveness
• She plans to continue her education at CSUMB pursuing psychology

We discuss the stigma and judgement that she felt along the journey through her addiction

And we also discuss how she makes sure her clients with addiction don't feel judgment or stigma from her now that she is a peer support specialist

If you're struggling with addiction, know that recovery is possible. Ana's story shows how our darkest moments can become our greatest strengths in helping others.

To contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy Podcast. Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover, an addiction medicine doctor based on California's Central Coast. For 14 years I worked in the emergency department seeing countless patients struggling with addiction. Now I'm on the other side of the fight, helping people rebuild their lives when drugs and alcohol take control. Thanks for tuning in. Let's get started.

Speaker 1:

Today's episode is the first episode of a four-part series on stigma, specifically the stigma that people with addiction and mental health face and how it affects them, and I have to give two shout-outs before we start. This episode is done in collaboration with Central Coast Overdose Prevention, also known as CCODP, which is a nonprofit I helped found here on the central coast of California focused on advocating for addiction treatment, and this podcast was made possible by California Overdose Prevention Network Accelerator funding from the Public Health Institute's Center for Health Leadership and Impact. As I mentioned, this episode is the first of a four-part series on stigma. We're going to release one episode a week for the next four weeks.

Speaker 1:

This is an episode with Anna. Sometimes she goes by Anna. She actually works with me at Central Coast Overdose Prevention and she's lived through addiction and now she's on the other side helping people with addiction get sober, and in this episode she shares her lived experience with addiction, including how people treated her, and we also discuss how she treats people now that she is on the other side working a peer support specialist and is finishing up her training to be a drug and alcohol counselor. She shared such a powerful story. Here we go. All right, good afternoon. Why don't we start by having you tell us who you are and what you do?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, hey, good afternoon. My name is Anna Alamo. I currently am a peer support specialist with a nonprofit, Centra Post-Overdose Prevention and I just graduated college, so it's a pretty great accomplishment for me.

Speaker 1:

Congratulations. Where'd you graduate from college?

Speaker 2:

Hartnell College local community here in Salinas. And what's your degree in? It's a mouthful, but it's Associates in Arts and Addiction Studies, majoring in Alcohol and Drugs. What do you plan to do with that? I was planning on just being a substance abuse counselor and that was pretty much my end goal until I started working at this job, and now I feel like I can do a lot more with my degree and I think I want to go on to maybe trying to do some sort of social work, Got it so and I'm going go on to maybe trying to do some sort of social work.

Speaker 1:

Got it so and I'm going to try to be funny here. Sometimes you're Anna, sometimes you're Anna. What mood are you in today? Are you in an Anna mood or an Anna mood?

Speaker 2:

I think, because Sunday I'm going with Anna, all right. So, anna, remind me where you grew up. I grew up in Salinas, california, born and raised here. I feel like I had a different childhood than most people because there's like the east side of Salinas that's where I grew up in, and then we moved to the south side of Salinas by Salinas High School and it was a different environment compared to the east side where I was previously.

Speaker 1:

So you and I have both been born and raised in Monterey County. I don't know Salinas that well. What's the difference between the east side and the south side?

Speaker 2:

The east side is like, well, there's a lot of gangs it's mostly like Latinos that are around there too. So the house and apartments where we're particularly around is called like Elkington Street. Okay, and growing up there was a lot of gangs around there. So I went from going there to the Southside by Salinas High, where forgive my language but there's a lot of white people that were there, that were around me and some of our neighbors, and it was just a really different type of vibe. It was like five women moved over there, four or five, and I was like, oh, this is different. It was a weird adjustment because I was so used to seeing Latinos, only Latinos, and then I went to see different cultures. Like I had a friend who I guess it was a religion because she was Jewish. There was another friend that was African-American and a couple of Latinos and a couple of other white kids, so we were a mix.

Speaker 1:

And today we're going to be talking about stigma. You've obviously been through some challenges in your life. When did things start getting difficult for you?

Speaker 2:

I hate to be that it all started when I was five thing, but it did start when I was around five. I had a traumatic event happen to me when I was five years old and I'm okay with sharing this. I was raped by the age of four and so my behavior was totally different than another four year old or five year old. So I feel like I was always being treated as like walking on eggshells. Not everyone knew what happened. My mom did, and they would treat me like the black duckling. There was moments where they would just expect me like oh, anna's the middle child, anna don't pay attention to her when she talks Like very dismissive of me. And I feel like once I started school, I started having that same behavior, where I noticed that some of the teachers were a little dismissive of when I spoke, and I feel like it was because I tried to over talk sometimes.

Speaker 2:

Then I started learning English really good and I remember the first time I was like first grade when someone told me wow, your English is really good for your, your Mexican, is that what you are? And I'm like I think so. I didn't know what a Mexican was when I was a six-year-old or seven-year-old. Whatever age, you are at first grade, so I think that's when it first started, when people were telling me that I was really well at speaking English. Then, through my elementary stage, I was bullied because I was darker than everyone. So I would get pushed around and they would make fun of me because I had the gold bracelets and gold earrings and they're like, why are you wearing that? Like why do you do that? And so they would push me down and steal my things and yeah, I was just messed up to have that because I had Asians and African-Americans and Hawaiian Filipinos and white kids that would do this to me and I felt really left out.

Speaker 1:

So just to make sure I understand, something challenging happened to you in your life at about age four or five, but independent of that, you were bullied and picked on in school. Is that correct?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I always felt like an outcast.

Speaker 1:

I guess you could say Is it because you moved to the South side of Salinas and it was a different group and you just always felt out?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would say so. I felt like I was different. Not everyone spoke Spanish, only speak Spanish at home and then go to English at school, and then that transition of having to not speak English at home. It just felt like it was just a difficult way to combine it all.

Speaker 1:

And you've obviously shared that some difficult things have happened to you. When did you start to go the wrong direction in your life?

Speaker 2:

It was the summer of sixth grade going to seventh grade. There was like summer school and my mom had signed me up because she just wanted me to get out of the house and somebody was like, hey, you want to smoke weed? And I was like weed, what's weed? I've never heard about that before. They're like just try, like it will get you high. And I remember we were like in an abandoned house somewhere behind a park and we smoked out of a highlighter and I was like, oh, okay, and I definitely felt like an immediate head change. Then. I kind of like that alternative reality.

Speaker 2:

After that, it's like I went from being bullied in elementary school to now going into middle school and there was more Latinos there and I felt a little bit better having more Latinos there and everybody was smoking weed. So I was like, oh, I want to smoke weed, I want to hang out with you guys. So, yeah, I started hanging out with people and my sister was involved with her own people too, and I think that's when everything started just happening. Afterwards, instead of me being bullied, I started fighting back. I fought whoever. Whoever wanted to fight me, I would fight back.

Speaker 1:

What do you think was the change in you from going from being a victim to fighting back?

Speaker 2:

I feel like it was the anger I had inside that I never really dealt with. So being able to smoke weed for a little bit free, and it made me want to just, I guess, shut people up and instead of saying, oh, anna's dumb, anna's a slut, anna's this, it was like Anna just got a fart in the bathroom, or Anna just did that, and I'd rather have that record than to have somebody telling me that I'm dumb, or I'm a slut, so you were getting some street cred.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, were you getting judged on your behavior from other people in your life?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my family, the educators, the teacher, the faculty staff, they all knew who I was and I was getting suspended all the time. I didn't even do my promotion in eighth grade because I was just always fighting somebody. I was always just so mad. And then whenever somebody was like, hey, I have some weed, I'm like cool, let's go smoke. Or let's you know, let's go do this. I don't want to be home.

Speaker 2:

And my parents were in the middle of a divorce. So in eighth grade my dad he ended up going to prison. Then my mom had to file for bankruptcy and there was just a lot going on. I didn't know how to handle. I wanted to be known for fighting people. So I felt like the teachers were just like oh, Anna's at it again, Anna's in this, again, Anna's in trouble again, Call her mom. And then my mom would tell me too if you're ever going to get in a fight, make sure you beat the other person up. If not, I'm going to beat you up if you didn't do it right. I think that once I felt like somebody challenged me, I had to end it, so that way my mom wouldn't get mad at me because I didn't finish something correctly how she wanted me to.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so you've obviously shared that you got started with cannabis. Where did your substance use and life go after that?

Speaker 2:

High school Some of my friends were doing the fizz pills, the ecstasy and a few other pills that they had, and I remember I tried one pill once and I really liked the way it made me feel. But all of my friends around me were like, oh, anna, we're not going to let you do that again. You were so messed up, you were on the floor and you couldn't do this, you couldn't do that and I was like, okay, sure, if you said not to, I won't do it. But then as I continued to go down like the path of fighting, ditching school, I started drinking. I was ditching school, having kickbacks at my house and my sister would bring like gangsters over and they all had like different types of drugs. I was always scared of cocaine and anything heavier than weed or a pill.

Speaker 2:

But then at 17, 18, I started dating this older guy and he started doing these like blue pills. They were in little baggies and I didn't know what they were and he was like they're just, it's nothing crazy, it's just like a perk, and I'm like I don't know what a perk is. So I tried it a couple of times, but he gave them to me and then I started sneaking them and then I had gotten pregnant and I was like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore, I think I'm going to stop here, I'll just smoke weed. I'll just do that instead. So I maybe smoked weed for a week after I found out I was pregnant. Then I stopped.

Speaker 2:

I ended up having a miscarriage and not long after that I ended up ending things with this guy because he started doing heavier things than pills. He was doing heroin and smoking little. I think they were like the sublingual films, some sort of films, that he was smoking them off the foil and I was like like that's crazy. And he was smoking meth. I was like I'm scared of that, I don't want to do that. So I left him then. That was probably around age 19, 20. And then, at 20 years old, then I started doing Norcos and then 21 Xanax. Yeah, I was doing pills from 20 to 25 years old. It was to a point that I don't remember three years of my life because I was so high on Xanax all the time. I'd take a Norco in the morning, a Xanax in midday, then at night take a Norco and a Xanax and hit the bong and take a drink, and it was just yeah, it was just pretty bad.

Speaker 1:

Did you seek any help at that time?

Speaker 2:

No, because I didn't think I had a problem. And it went on and I had some of my like my sister would tell me like hey, dude, are you okay? You seem like something's off. Like maybe you should leave this guy. He has a bad influence on you. He wasn't making me do anything, I was the one doing it, but because this guy came into my life, they thought that he was influencing all this behavior. So for years I did it until it numbed everything that I wanted to let go of. And throughout this time, my family, just I was the secret. They didn't talk much about, but they knew that I was doing something. They know I always smelt like. And then age 25 is when things got real. How so. So we were. I hope this is okay to share. But we were selling pills. They were laser fentanyl and somebody ended up overdosing and dying off of it.

Speaker 2:

Once the DA got involved and they were right in front of my face with a gun, I was like, oh my God, something is going on. What the hell? That's when I was forced to take a look at my life to see what am I doing? I've gotten suspended. I was ditching school, I was hanging out in the back crowd all throughout my whole life. I never thought about what else I was going to do with my life. And that's when I realized either I stopped doing what I'm doing or I'm going to go to jail, or I'm going to die. Those are the two options. There's nothing else. There's no in between. So after we went to court, I went to jail for like maybe two weeks, and jail for me. I was like I have never come in here again. This was it. This was my sign. God, thank you so much. I will never come back here. And that was it for me. I was like I'm not built for this, not built for this lifestyle. Yeah, I made a lot of bad decisions in my life, but I don't want to end up here, I don't want to go to prison, I don't want to be around these people. And then my mom and me realized that I was those people. That's when I got in trouble. I was forced to get clean.

Speaker 2:

And then I wasn't just a girl who was in school, who was a fifth year senior. I was on record like a drug dealer, an addict. I was getting phone calls like hey, have you ever seeked help for drugs before? And I was like I'm not getting these calls, I'm not even an addict. And then I learned that there's different severities of addiction. There's a low, moderate and severe. And I was on the lower side compared to most of the people that I've met. I was on the lower side and even to this day, some people tell me like, oh, like, you weren't really an addict, you did the bare minimum. And I was like don't discredit my addict. I was. I know I was somewhere on that bar.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, after I got justice involved, my probation officer was great. She kept me on check and she told me like if you ever violate, I'm gonna violate you. You're going to go to jail. And that was it. I was like I don't want to go to jail. No, so I stopped with that. And March 2020 was when I changed my life. I stopped doing drugs. I was like I don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 1:

So with stigma, we talk about different types of stigma, and one of the types of stigma is self-stigma, where we judge ourselves for what we do. When you look back on this time of your life, were you able to be honest with yourself? Were you harsh with yourself? What was that like?

Speaker 2:

I was pretty harsh on myself. It's like I could have done better. I should have done better. I shouldn't have hung out with this crowd, and it was just a lot of shoulda, woulda, couldas. Then I started seeking therapy as an adult, and that's when I realized that I started feeling sorry for myself. After, yeah, it was a different time for me to think of myself like oh, I was a party girl.

Speaker 1:

But it wasn't just party, because I wanted to party all the time. How did your family treat you?

Speaker 2:

during this time. They didn't trust me. My sister didn't really want my nephew around me. My nephew now he's 17. My youngest nephew he's going to be eight next week and my youngest has autism, and so she was like I can't have you around my kids like that, and my mom too. She didn't really trust me. She's like I can't have you at home nodding off all the time you and your boyfriend are arguing and I can't. It's not okay, I'm not okay with it. So they were very disapproving and they were very open about it. But I didn't see it that way. I was just like they don't care about me. They were just treating me like crap, but they just were putting up boundaries for themselves.

Speaker 1:

How did the legal system treat you? Like a criminal. I mean, with all due respect, you were Exactly.

Speaker 2:

I mean, were they?

Speaker 1:

more we need to get Anna some help because she's got addiction, or was it more we need to lock Anna up?

Speaker 2:

It was more like we need to lock Anna up. It was more like we need to lock Anna up. I felt like during this time I never got an option of going to a rehab or getting any sort of help with like substances. It just made me feel like more of a criminal because of it. They were just like she's sold drugs, someone died and that's it. Like they didn't ask me much, they were like what's your drug use? And then once I said what my drug use was, I told them I was honest. They still didn't think to get me any help.

Speaker 1:

When did you actually start getting some help?

Speaker 2:

During probation. It was the forced NA meetings, aa meetings, and I felt like I didn't really resonate much with AA. But NA felt like that was my people and mostly listening to everybody else, because I was always too nervous to say anything, because I felt like less of an addict, I guess you could say, in these groups. So I just wanted to listen to other people's stories. Throughout the time listening I felt, oh, oh, I felt that or I can relate to that, oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

And then there was this one time where one guy from community health services was running the group through Zoom, because of course it was during COVID and so that was completely different. But everybody started attacking him because he had no experience, no lived experience. Nobody cared what he had to say. As he was trying to run the group. He was like according to the books, it says that this or it says that that.

Speaker 2:

And somebody went off on him and was like how are you going to know what I feel? Like? Has he never been through it? How am I supposed to listen to you? That was one of my first thoughts about being a substance abuse counselor. That sounds kind of like people are going to be like okay, so you know what I mean when I tell you that I've had withdrawals or that I felt some type of way, or you have to sell to make sure you still got more of your drugs, so that way I can keep my addiction going. So yeah, I feel like through probation I started getting the help. It was forced and I feel like maybe that's what I needed.

Speaker 1:

So now you're on the other side and you are a drug and alcohol counselor. What is it like on the other side?

Speaker 2:

I got to tell you it's amazing to go into the jail and walk out with my own clothes and the fact of getting treated friendlier with the sheriffs. The deputies compared to me. If I was locked up, they would be like with the sheriffs the deputies Compared to me. If I was locked up, they would be like, hurry up and I would be treated less humane. So it just feels good to be on the other side and just not have to have fear of the cop.

Speaker 1:

So you obviously were judged for what you did. How do you take that experience of being judged and how do you integrate that into your work when you take care of people who need help going forward?

Speaker 2:

I think I try to be more compassionate, let them know that, without oversharing too much, until it's the right time, I guess, to share my story. But I let them know, trust me, I know, I know I've been there and if I could do it, you could do it too. I didn't know I was going to be this and now that I'm here I'm like dude. It's hard, trust me, it's hard, but going through it just makes you feel so much better. I've really connected with a lot of the teenage girls lately and it's just amazing to be there for them, because I never really had that for myself growing up, especially through that phase. So it feels nice to be like dude. I was in your shoes, I was ditching school Like I was doing. This Girl, I know, come on, tell me what you need and I will figure it out for you. It feels good to have that.

Speaker 1:

Do you use certain phrases or avoid certain terms? Do you lead with a hug? How do you make people feel welcomed and respected when you start working with them?

Speaker 2:

I think it's listening, sharing a little bit, having a conversation with them not talking at them, but talking to them and then, once it comes to the end, I ask can I give you a hug? And if they say yes, I'll give them a hug and they're like thank you. I really needed to hear that. Your story sounds similar to me, or it sounds like you really know what I've been through and you made me feel seen, and I think that's my goal, just to make people feel seen, because it's hard when you're out here and you're in it, you just feel invisible and you're just going through a difficult time. You're fighting yourself and it's true what they say, that you are your worst enemy.

Speaker 1:

So, now that you're learning how to give back and take care of people in their own addiction, what are you surprised to have learned?

Speaker 2:

Not taking it personal If someone relapses. I think that's what I'm surprised to learn, because I going into this, I was like, oh, not everyone's going to relapse, they'll be fine, I'm going to change them. And then come to find out someone left relapse and I'm just like, oh shoot, I've been talking to this person and I've been trying my best to be there for them, but it's not my fault. All I can do is try my best. So that's the most surprising thing for me is not taking it personal when it comes to my patient making a mistake.

Speaker 1:

So the million dollar question in addiction medicine is do you hold people accountable or do you accommodate them when they need help? And no one on planet earth knows the answer to this question. Right, if you push people too hard to hold them accountable, it can be too hard and they can relapse under the pressure. And if you accommodate them, you can sometimes accommodate them too much and by allowing them too much wiggle room, it allows them to not do the hard work that is needed to get sober and stay sober. So, given your lived experience both what you've been through and now what you do professionally how do you find that balance around holding people accountable versus helping them when they need it?

Speaker 2:

A phrase that I use because I feel like I let people know like I'm gonna keep it real with you, you know from the beginning is you can't bullshit a bullshitter dude, it's all right that you messed up, it's okay, we're human, but what can we do different? So being able to Let them know that they messed up, and friends, so being able to let them know that they messed up, and still trying to see do you still want this? Because if you do, I could still help you. Trying a little bit of both, I feel is the right answer, because if someone would have told me, like part of my addiction, oh, you messed up, and that's it, you messed up, I think I would have probably cried and probably wanted to go back to take a pill. I don't want to feel that.

Speaker 1:

How do you handle it when someone's not ready or they don't want help?

Speaker 2:

Let them know that I'm here and here's my card. Or we come around here every Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. If you're ever ready, I'm here. If you see me or my coworkers or that truck with the green sticker, you know where to find us. We're here.

Speaker 1:

You know, what's so amazing about the work that we do in addiction is for people with addiction. It's a lot of shame, it's a lot of stigma.

Speaker 1:

It's a lot of not wanting people to know what we're doing, and it's dark and it's it doesn't feel good. It's to have to be honest about what we're doing just feels horrible. And what's absolutely amazing is when people with addiction get treatment and then they start to turn their lives around to where they are able to help others with addiction. All of that shame, all of those stories, all of those experiences now become an asset, and it's really cool because what used to be something you never wanted anyone to find out about is now something that you can share. When someone's struggling to say I know how you feel, I was there too. That's one of the things that gets me up out of bed every morning is knowing that when people start doing better, their deepest, darkest secrets become their superpowers. And I'm just curious how that feels to you, given that you've been through a lot and now you're on the other side helping people that need it the way you used to need it. How does that feel to you?

Speaker 2:

It feels like a superpower, like how you said it. It's super crazy that when I first started this job, I was like, oh my God, I have to share what happened to me. Oh my God, I can't believe that. And then realizing I don't have to share it unless I feel like it's the right time to or the right person I'm talking to, because not everybody needs to hear my story, but there's some people that do, and when those people hear it, they're like, oh my God, anna, yes, yes, that's it, and that feels. Oh my God. That makes me feel high. It gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling in the inside and I just feel amazing because my story is helping somebody. Some of the most traumatic events of my life are the reason why somebody feels connected to me and why they feel like they can trust me. I think that's amazing in itself and, yeah, I feel like, honestly, I feel like crying about it. I just got goosebumps.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so tell me what's next for you.

Speaker 2:

What's next is? I want to do this for a little longer and I want to go to CSUMB, pursue my bachelor's in psychology and see where life takes me. The fact that I'm here right now means that there's so many doors that I could open. There's so many opportunities with my life. I graduated college. That's so hard. That's so hard for somebody who's been through what I've been through and sometimes I think about it and I should be worse than what I am now and the fact that I've met you and Dr Close and CCODP and just everyone in my life, it just makes me feel like I have an amazing team to work with. I don't know what's next, but I know it's something great.

Speaker 1:

Has your family started to trust you again?

Speaker 2:

Yes, oh, my God, yeah, and it feels so good to be like the level-headed one. My mom hey, she asked me for my opinions. My older sister sometimes seeks my advice and my little sister is just we're working our relationship. My little brother, too, like I think for a while he would tell me, like you, being the bad influence in my life made me want to be a good influence to others and now he wants to be a cop. And it's just so amazing to have that support for my family that I felt like I've always wanted and I always yearned. And now that I'm sober I have goals and I feel so supported in any way. And I know that whatever I wanted to do with my life, my mom would be like if that's what you want to do, then that's what you want to do, nina.

Speaker 1:

How far into your recovery did your family start to trust you again?

Speaker 2:

Last year it felt like Wow, four years.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my family's stubborn, so I felt like they were trying, but they were still unsure because as much as I tried to let go of some of my old friends, some of them would still come around and so they'd be like Anna, what are you doing? And then I just got really focused into school and finishing and doing better. I stopped talking about what I was going to do and I just started doing it and my mom told me to like this was like probably the first year that I was sober and she was like you always talk about what you're going to do, but you never do it. Yeah, it took a while, but I feel like I finally gained all of their trust and it feels good that just to have open conversations and be vulnerable around one another, it was great.

Speaker 1:

Gosh, being vulnerable that is oh, that is such a big part of what we do. I was on a podcast being interviewed about addiction and they asked me what's the biggest predictor that someone will get sober and stay sober? And I said a willingness to feel discomfort and be vulnerable. How did you actually get to where you could be vulnerable? Therapy Good answer Apparently, you have a good therapist.

Speaker 2:

Oh, she's amazing. Last year I hit a really low point in my depression and I was a little worried about myself. Hartnell College has great counselors and so I seek support and I got linked up with the trauma informed care therapist who does EMDR, and so like I've just become okay with some of the things that have happened to me and I've realized that the things that have happened to me and I've realized that the things that have happened do not define who I am. They're just a part of my story. I cried about it for a while, but now it just feels like a surreal moment. It feels like the sun is shining and I can see better things ahead of me.

Speaker 1:

So we talked about stigma, particularly self-stigma, have you forgiven yourself for what you've been through and what you did.

Speaker 2:

That's a hard one, because I feel like forgiveness isn't something that just happens once. You have to forgive yourself over and over again, sometimes until it's less. My therapist actually taught me that one she goes. It's going to be hard for you to just do it one time, but you might have to do it in a month or so. Have be like okay, you know what. I already dealt with this. I'm okay, I forgive myself. I can't beat myself up over it so much. I have to just do better. Ultimately, I try to remind myself sometimes that somebody died because the things that I was doing and that's tough. Yeah, I don't want someone else to die, and if I would have kept doing what me and the person I was dating is doing, like it, just more people could have died, it could have been worse, and just to have that on me makes me think that like.

Speaker 1:

I have to do better. How do you handle it when one of your clients is in a similar situation, where they're really struggling with the self-stigma?

Speaker 2:

It's a hard question. I don't really have a good answer for that, because I feel like I just listen. I listen to them and if I don't have anything motivating to say, I'm just like I hear you, I see you.

Speaker 1:

If it was a hard question, it means it was a good question. You If it was a hard question, it means it was a good question. It was a great question. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you right there that just being a safe person in their life and being able to listen is so important. And our patients do all sorts of things. They relapse, they deal to others of things. They relapse, they deal to others, they judge themselves, they struggle, they overdose. And what's amazing is that they're really nice people. I mean, I have some really, really wonderful human beings that are under my care that do really bad things, and I try to see the good in them and focus on the good parts of them and just be there to be safe and supportive. And I like what you said when you said I just listen, because that sometimes that's the best thing we can do.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I love that you said that some people do bad things but you try to look the good in them, because that's what I try to do too. I did a few mistakes in my life and if somebody only saw me because of those mistakes that I did did a few mistakes in my life and if somebody only saw me because of those mistakes that I did, I wouldn't be where I'm at right now and just giving somebody that second chance and hearing them out. You never know how that actually helps somebody.

Speaker 1:

I got to say, anna, this was great. I appreciate your vulnerability with me and today and sharing and speaking, and I also appreciate the incredible lived experience that you have to be able to help our clients. And I also appreciate the incredible lived experience that you have to be able to help our clients, and you're right having been where they have been and where they are gives you a superpower to be able to relate to them and encourage them and engage them. So thank you for all the incredible work that you do and for sharing your story with me.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me. I appreciate this opportunity.

Speaker 1:

To those healthcare providers out there treating patients with addiction you're doing life-saving work and thank you for what you do For everyone else tuning in. Thank you for taking the time to learn about addiction. It's a fight we cannot win without awareness and action. There's still so much we can do to improve how addiction is treated. Together, we can make it happen. Thanks for listening and remember treating addiction saves lives. Bye.