Addiction Medicine Made Easy | Fighting back against addiction

Stigma 2: Stigma Hurts, Compassion Heals

• Casey Grover, MD, FACEP, FASAM

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This episode is the second episode of a four part series on stigma.

This episode is done in collaboration with Central Coast Overdose Prevention (CCODP) and was made possible by California Overdose Prevention Network Accelerator funding from the Public Health Institute's Center for Health Leadership and Impact.

In this episode, Gabrielle shares her powerful journey from fentanyl addiction to recovery, highlighting the unexpected moment of compassion from a correctional officer that changed everything. Her story reveals how respect and dignity can transform recovery outcomes, while exploring the deep impact of self-stigma and family support.

She shares her experience:

• Hitting rock bottom on Christmas Eve 2022 after stealing her mother's car during active fentanyl addiction
• Experiencing six overdoses, with each one bringing her closer to death
• Finding transformation through a year-long program at Teen Challenge
• Encountering a correctional officer who showed unexpected compassion and dignity
• Battling intense self-stigma despite having family who never gave up on her
• Receiving an ultimatum from her pregnant sister that became a powerful motivator
• Learning that recovery meant becoming a different person, not just the same person without drugs
• Moving from shame about her addiction to being open about her recovery journey
• Finding ways to help others by showing kindness and treating "humans like humans"
• Building a life she couldn't have imagined three years ago, working six days a week and helping with her sister's child

If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, remember you don't have to do it alone. There are many avenues to recovery, and compassion can make all the difference.

To Contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy Podcast. Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover, an addiction medicine doctor based on California's Central Coast. For 14 years I worked in the emergency department seeing countless patients struggling with addiction. Now I'm on the other side of the fight, helping people rebuild their lives when drugs and alcohol take control. Thanks for tuning in. Let's get started.

Speaker 1:

Today's episode is the second episode of a four-part series on stigma, specifically the stigma that people with addiction and mental health conditions face and how it affects them and their families, and I have to give two shout-outs before we start. This episode is done in collaboration with Central Coast Overdose Prevention, which is a nonprofit I helped found here on the Central Coast of California focused on advocating for addiction treatment, and this podcast was made possible by California Overdose Prevention Network Accelerator funding from the Public Health Institute's Center for Health Leadership and Impact. This episode is an interview with Gabrielle. She's lived with addiction and hit rock bottom in the past, and now she's sober and getting her life back on track. We're going to hear her story and hear her perspective, including one particular person who unexpectedly treated her with respect and helped to change her life. And next week, for the third part of the series, we're going to hear what it was like for her mother trying to help when Gabrielle was in active addiction.

Speaker 1:

One quick point before we start. Gabrielle talks about some of her feelings and perspectives while she was in active addiction during this episode, and she makes a few comments about not being homeless, and I just wanted to clarify what this meant. This was an expression of her self-stigma, her acknowledging that she had a family and a home and yet she was still relapsing. That being said, our unhoused patients face a lot of stigma, so just a reminder for all of us to pay attention to the stigma that our unhoused patients face too. And with that, here we go. All right, well, good afternoon. Why don't you start by telling me who you are and where you live right now?

Speaker 2:

Hello, I'm Gabrielle, I am 31 years old and I live in Holster and we were going to talk about recovery today.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so my clean date is December 29th of 2022. I unfortunately didn't do it the easy way and I ended up in jail on Christmas Eve of 2022. The way I ended up there was my mom actually called the cops on me because I took her car and I was doing really, really bad. I had been addicted to fentanyl. At that point I had relapsed. I had probably been relapsed for about at least a year and a half to two years. I hid it pretty well until I just couldn't hide it anymore. It just got out of control. So I ended up in jail and I had called my mom from jail and I just I was ready to stop and make a change. And she found a program for me which I was so blessed to be able to go to a program called Teen Challenge. I had tried programs in the past. Unfortunately, like relapse is definitely a part of my story before this chance that I was given. Teen Challenge is a one-year program and before I went to Teen Challenge, I did not know that. So I had agreed with my mom to go to this program. It was like as long as I can get out of jail thing in the beginning, and then on the way up, which was we were driving from San Jose to Reading, I was like, oh, how long is this program? And she's like, oh, it's to Reading. I was like, oh, how long is this program? And she's like, oh, it's a year. And I was like, no, I'm not going, I can't do that. And so I told her, well, I'll agree to three months, to just right off the bat, and she's like you're staying the year. But in my head I was like, well, I'm just agreeing to three months and the program. I didn't really have a relationship with God, but obviously that changed throughout my stay there and so I started in Redding and then I transferred to the Yuba City facility. I was there for a majority of the year that I was in the program and throughout that year I think I just finally accepted.

Speaker 2:

I think what I struggled with with like my relapses before was like wanting to be the same person minus the drugs, because I was embarrassed, like I didn't want to tell people like, oh, I'm an addict in recovery, like to me going to NA meetings and saying that was easy, but like on a day-to day basis with like people who didn't struggle. It was embarrassing for me and so I really found that teen challenge. I just realized like I couldn't be the same me. The same me was the one who brought the problems everywhere, like the problems followed and I think, throughout that long term stay which for me is what helped the most, I think, is that I was removed completely pretty much from society, like no phone, no computer, no TV. We barely listened to the radio for the whole year. I think that's what I needed and it helped remove that and just be comfortable in my own skin.

Speaker 2:

I was always worried about looks, how I looked, my hair being done, stuff like that, and I do care about those things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to act like I don't, but it just wasn't as important. The materialistic things just became very unimportant to me because I had none of that when I was there for the year and I hardly wore makeup, hardly did my hair. We worked, we fundraised, we hit down to the basics of life again and it really transformed that. So today, like I would say two and a half years into this, my life is very, very different than it was, I would say, three years ago. I have really great relationships. I've always been a hard worker. I'm just a hard worker in a different way.

Speaker 2:

But moving back to Hollister, I found myself in the beginning being embarrassed again. People asking like oh, where'd you go? You run into everybody at the grocery store it's a small town. And oh my gosh, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you? And I'm like, oh, I'm actually really good. For the first time I could say that like in mean it, and it's so funny. I completely forgot about this podcast.

Speaker 2:

And yesterday at work I work at a restaurant you get really close with people and they're six days a week and you see a lot of the same faces. Like I said, it's a small town, so the same people come in all the time and this one family is a husband and wife, but they normally come in with their two sons. Well, the wife always gets a tonic water and I would never ask I know, know better to ask, obviously because I'm in recovery and sometimes that can offend people. I never asked because they'll sit at the bar, the husband will be drinking and the wife gets a tonic water. And yesterday I don't even know how the conversation was brought up but I said oh yeah, like I'm in recovery, I've been clean for two and a half years. And she was like so you're telling me the whole time you've been working here, we've both been in recovery and neither of us have talked about it. And I was like, well, it's not the first thing I talked about at work, but with people that I get like all my regular, regular customers know that about me. Well, she come to find out she's been sober for five years.

Speaker 2:

When it happens at work, I feel like it's just an odd place for it to happen at to meet people like you. But I'm the first one to promote our like non-alcoholic beer. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. And so that's how the conversations start with some people is they'll ask if we have like non-alcoholic beer. I'm like, oh really. I was like, oh yeah, I don't drink either. Oh really, I was like oh yeah, I don't drink either. And that's normally how the conversation gets started. But last night it was just like very special.

Speaker 2:

And then she told me like alcohol was her problem, obviously, and I was like I'm not afraid to admit it anymore and I feel like the stigma around fentanyl the word. When I was in the program we would do fundraising and you go door to door and you knock on these people's door and you just tell them their story and we would me and the girls that I was in the house with we would like make a joke like are you going to drop the F-bomb today? Because it really is like an F-bomb. Once you say that word fentanyl, it either like scares people or it like intrigues people, or people just have so many questions about it and like from the outside looking in, people don't assume that about me. And that's the first thing that couple said. They were like I would never have guessed and I was like, yeah, yeah, no, most people don't, but I think of opening people's eyes to it could literally be like your next door neighbor, the 60 year old woman living right next door to you, could be struggling, and so yesterday when I dropped the F-bomb with her, they just couldn't believe it.

Speaker 2:

I don't get like super into my story, but I have overdosed I think six times and that's overdose, like actually taken to the hospital overdosed, I'm sure like I've had smaller ones that I just don't remember. Each overdose like getting closer and closer to not coming back from oh, it gets a little emotional. Probably one of the worst ones was my best friend found me outside of her house. I was just sitting on her doorstep and I had taken the blue pills and I was unresponsive and she called my mom. She called my mom and my mom showed up and I was like completely blue, no life whatsoever in my body, and her and my younger sister, who I live with, saw me like that and thank god for EMS here in the fire department here in Hollister, because they saved my life countless times unfortunately. So that was probably like the most traumatic. I mean for myself, for my family.

Speaker 2:

But every time I overdosed it was like this feeling of like when you come back, like this gasp for air and this bone chilling coldness in your body. Like I can't even explain this level of how cold you are. But this last time I overdosed and then my mom called the cops on me because I stole her car the next day because I was looking for more drugs. You know what I mean. So when I overdosed the last time though it's been about, I think, six times, but this last time I didn't have that like gas for air. There's no recollection of the events and normally like when you come to, you come to and it's. I never actually came to this time, and I think that's what like scared me the most Was that I don't know, I don't remember any of it, like I have no recollection of those events whatsoever and to this day like I've still tried to rack my brain Like there's just like a period of three days that I just don't remember at all, and so I think that's what was really scary for me, because each time I just got so much closer to that point where I wasn't going to come back from Mentally. My poor brain should have never came back from.

Speaker 2:

There's an ER doctor here in Holster, dr Bogey. He's so great, just treat you with dignity and doesn't make you feel worthless. But unfortunately, when I overdosed the last time, it was in San Jose and they just treated me like I was just some homeless off the street. That, oh, it was just another one when I was going to be back the next day, and that was just like such an ugly feeling for my mom to see that too, because I do have people that care about me.

Speaker 2:

I wasn't like a homeless on the street, like it shouldn't have been her daughter. You know what I mean. Like I was a human being. I was. I was someone's daughter laying there, someone's sister, and that feeling of feeling so low and less than because of like choices that I made. And so when I went to jail then obviously like I was obviously withdrawing really bad in jail and the CEOs just treating me like I was just like nothing, nothing, like I was so sick, like I could not even lift my head up, just throwing up hot and cold and just awful. It was awful In jail, like I think they do three days on, four days off type shifts. So the whole time I was there I had this one CO during the day.

Speaker 1:

CO being correctional officer. Correctional officer yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 2:

This one correctional officer during the day. It was the same lady the whole time I was there. Well, the last day that I was there it must have been like a shift change and it was a different lady and I was supposed to go to court the following day and this new correctional officer the door just opened and I was like what the heck? I'm out of my mind. I'm not even like relatively okay, like I'm so foggy I can't even freaking, think straight, can't talk, can't walk. But the door just opened and I was like what the heck? Like I've never really been in jail like that, ever before, so this is all like really new to me. But I know a door shouldn't just open like that. And so I like kind of like walk towards it.

Speaker 2:

And this tall lady I don't even know her name. I would love to find out her name one day. She called me by my last name and said I have good news and I have bad news. And I was like, okay, can't be much worse than sitting in jail. I'm already here, so I don't know how much worse it can get. And she said Well, I'm already here, so I don't know how much worse it can get. And she said well, the good news is you're getting released, get your stuff, you get to go home. And the bad news is, if you do not stop this, you're going to die. Because she had come and brought breakfast earlier that morning. She's like what are you kicking? Obviously she could tell I was dying there. And I said, oh, I told her fentanyl. And she was like Dude, do you have a mom that cares about you? And I told her yeah, I said I'm gonna go to a program. And she was like yeah, I hear that a lot, but didn't make me feel like she was judging me by any means, but I could only imagine how much she hears that. And so when she told me that I was getting released, when she said I have good news and I have bad news, she had just said you're going to die If you don't stop now, like you're going to die and I don't want to see you in the newspaper or anything.

Speaker 2:

I was like no, no, no, like I'm going to a program, I promise, I promise, like I'm going to a program straight from here. But can I call my mom year? But can I call my mom? Because I was not supposed to go to court till the next day and my mom was all the way in Hollister and I'm in jail in San Jose and the plan was for me to get out of jail and go straight to this program. Well, their bed wasn't going to be open until the next day and I knew all this in my head.

Speaker 2:

So I'm like trying to get ahold of my mom and she was like, okay, well, I need to call them and I need to go get you some stuff at the house. She was at work. I need to go get you some stuff at the house so you could take with you, because I have nothing with me, obviously. And I was like I don't even care about that, I need you to come now. I need you to come right now. If you could please drop what you're doing and come now. If you do not get here by the time, I'm being released, like I'm scared of myself. And so she came, and well, she didn't come right away. It was a pretty long drive.

Speaker 2:

So I had been released and I was sitting there waiting outside of this jail and just so sick, so, so, so sick, and all I could think about was I'm not going to get through this. There's no way I'm going to get through this. So I'm sitting outside the jail and I keep asking to go back inside, to use the phone, to keep calling her to see where she's at, because I'm about to just take off right now. I'm going to go find something. I'll go to the program after and she's like please, please, just don't leave, I'm coming, I'm coming. Which she always showed up for me. She was always right there fighting by my side. My sister, too, just never gave up. Thank God, thank God they just never gave up. But one thing I could say is my mom's never been ashamed of me, my sister's never been ashamed to call me her sister, and to me that's insane.

Speaker 1:

Let's unpack that a little bit. So I don't know how much you know about stigma, but self-stigma is where people judge themselves yeah and by your tears I would guess that there's some self-stigma that you lived through and yet your family did not, yeah, judge you in the same way.

Speaker 2:

Talk to me about that I think I've just really struggled with. I wasn't raised this way. This wasn't how my life was supposed to be.

Speaker 1:

No one plans their life to go that direction. I go to a lot of schools and I ask those kids what they want to be when they grow up.

Speaker 2:

Nobody says kicking fentanyl in jail, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think that's what I've struggled with over the years for so long. I'm not ashamed anymore, but obviously that feeling's still there. Of course I mean I'm pretty happy on a day-to-day basis, but it's still there. I see people I went to high school with like super successful and owning houses and having married with kids, and that self-stigma oh, I should be there, but I'm not, and that's okay. I finally, but I'm not, and that's okay. I finally come to the point where it's. That's okay. That wasn't my path.

Speaker 2:

I made different choices and my choices led me down a different road, but I've always, like how you said, circled back to being so almost in awe that my family's never been ashamed and I've carried that shame, no matter how much they said we're gonna get through this. That shame and guilt, I don't know. I mean two and a half years in, I don't know if it ever truly like leaves. I think you learn how to just deal with it in a different way and it's just not so prominent, because I don't live in that shame and guilt every day when it's talked about. I think is when I revert back to those feelings more than feeling like that on a daily basis because I'm a productive member of society. I know who I am today, but you do. You get sucked back into that.

Speaker 1:

Gabrielle, do you use the term addict to describe?

Speaker 2:

yourself.

Speaker 1:

I do. I do it's interesting. I was at an event and a woman was speaking. We were doing an aloxone training or narcan training. Yeah and a woman, and this is not her name. She said hi everyone, I'm sarah, I'm an addict and I'm proud of that. Yeah because the person I am today is stronger than I ever could have been.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, and I can identify with that. So the first program I ever went to was a non 12 set program. They taught you like you're not an addict If you're not using you're not an addict. And it's funny that you bring that up, because towards the end of that program you like do amends with your family and so you call them and my mom called me an addict on the phone and I absolutely lost it on her like I'm not an addict, addict and you are the one who sent me to this program that teaches us, like that I'm not an addict. Like how dare you? And obviously like, throughout the years of relapsing and getting back into recovery, I stepped into the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I've met amazing people there and so I 100% identify as an addict, because that doesn't just describe me being an addict to drugs and alcohol.

Speaker 2:

I am an addict in every way, shape and form, like it's in my DNA. I cannot do anything without fully throwing myself into it. I don't know how to explain it, but work. I work six days a week. You know what I mean. And anytime they need someone to cover, I'm the first one to cover. So I just identify as an addict through and through. I don't know how to do anything. A little bit. There's no like half stepping in my life. I'm either like not interested at all, or I'm full force balls to the wall, going to do everything, and that's like a blessing and a curse, I think.

Speaker 2:

Well, said Because I think I do like how the stigma around the shame and the guilt of being an addict there's also, like this shame and the guilt of not being there for your family, obviously, like during the time I was using and then all the times that I was away and treatment and stuff like that.

Speaker 2:

And so I think now I really try to overcompensate and I think I'm finally stepping into this place in my life where I'm seeing how much I overcompensate and I'm seeing how much it wears me down almost in the same way like drugs do, like you get to that point where you're just like exhausted all the time because you're just trying to show up for everybody and just be the person for every other person and just not really having anywhere to go yourselves. I don't want to go to my mom because I don't want her to worry, like when I'm having a rough day is she going to go, relapse, and I've caused that and I've accepted that. I've caused that. That's exactly where her mind's going to go. And so, over showing up for people, I don't know how to say no. That's where, like, the curse of it comes in is not knowing how to say no, because I think I have that guilt of not being there before because of making poor choices, and so I'm doing so good now. Why wouldn't I say yes?

Speaker 1:

Do you think that's going to get better?

Speaker 2:

I'm stepping into it, getting a little bit better. I'm starting to say no, I'm really tired today. I'm not going to do that. So I think I'm very, very, very slowly learning to say no. But I just recently realized how much of a problem it is.

Speaker 2:

I'm a people pleaser. I just want everybody to get along. I don't want to fight with anybody. I spent so many years arguing with everybody. You know what I mean Lying to everybody that it's just. I just want everybody to get along and nobody to fight ever. And that's just not reality.

Speaker 1:

I was going to ask you you mentioned stigma and you're coming to terms with your recovery and realizing that you've proven yourself in recovery. Yeah, I wanted to come back to that female correctional officer that you talked about, because she was pretty straight with you. Oh, yeah, like she did not mince her words, no, but it sounds like she didn't make you feel judged.

Speaker 2:

No, there was like so much empathy and compassion and just my grandma says she's an angel. She's like. I bet you that lady is not even real and it was just an angel. She always says that the way this lady like made me feel and I mean, we're two and a half years later and I will never forget the way she made me feel. She made me feel like a human being and like she cared, and like the night and day, compared to the correctional officer that was working before her who made me feel like absolute scum of the earth, like I had no right in the world.

Speaker 2:

No, nobody cared. And the way that this lady actually cared if I lived or died and this lady has no idea who I am Never seen me before, that has never seen me after. That Just truly was in her position for a reason you know what I mean which you don't hear about often. You don't hear about that empathy and compassion in those positions, unfortunately. And so this lady just didn't judge me, saw me for who I was, saw me for the problem that I had, but didn't see me as a nobody because of it or somebody who couldn't become somebody after it. It's like she saw something in me that at that point I couldn't see in myself, because I don't think someone like that says those words to someone, unless they're like dude, you could get it together.

Speaker 1:

So let me ask as a follow-up to that you mentioned that she was compassionate with you and she saw something in you that you didn't. As you've gotten into recovery, have you learned to be compassionate with yourself?

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, I I'm a lot softer with myself in the beginning. I wasn't in the beginning like I was still really really hard on myself and I have good days and I have bad days. Today, as your position that you're in, I'm sure you've heard of all these like sayings and na meanings, of course, but it's like my worst day out here. It doesn't even compare to my best day, high Like. It really doesn't Like my problems today are so minute compared to like my problems back then.

Speaker 2:

It was like robbing Peter to pay Paul and lying to Sally to like just constantly, just like this chaotic life that I live today. Like I have a schedule. My problems today they're so easy and so like when I get overwhelmed I'll talk with my sister and then we'll sit there and we're like, but we live a really good life today. You know what I mean. Like our life. We couldn't have imagined our life being like this three years ago. If you would have asked either of us, we would have probably laughed in your face. I live a really good life today and I think I think the compassion with myself didn't come until, honestly, like until I got back on my feet again financially, being productive again, and like being able to do things for myself again. But once I was able to do those things, I was able to give myself a little more of a break. I mean, I still struggle with it, like I still think I need to be the best at everything and I still have something to prove to everybody.

Speaker 1:

Have you forgiven yourself?

Speaker 2:

I think for a lot of things I have, I've never known the answer to that question.

Speaker 1:

Ah, glad I asked.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because I think, like you do forgive yourself, I did a lot of work over the year that I was in the program. I did a lot of counseling, I did a lot of praying and journaling and I think I have forgiven myself, but I don't forget. I don't forget, and so I think the answer would be yes, but there's always a but. It's part of your story, you know. It doesn't affect me on a day-to-day basis. Like I said earlier, like the shame and the guilt, it's not prominent in my life on a day-to-day basis. I know I'm not those things that I was back then. Today I know I'm not those things and so I think that, right, there is the answer to that. I don't think if I didn't forgive myself, I wouldn't know the truth about who I am today.

Speaker 1:

Of course, that's a very good answer.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but, like I said, you just don't forget. And it still lives there and it's still. You're the hardest on yourself. You know what I mean. You lived it. You know what you've done. I mean my, my family knows some of what I've done, but they don't know everything and they don't need to know everything. How did your?

Speaker 1:

family being supportive. Help you when you were ready to get in the recovery. Oh, I couldn't have done it without them.

Speaker 2:

How so? My sister, the one that I live with and work with, she has a two and a half year old. So the ultimatum was she was pregnant. So when I went to jail she was pregnant. She was like eight months pregnant and she's actually the one who picked me up from the overdose at the hospital the night before I went to jail, but I just put her through the ringer.

Speaker 2:

She's always stuck by my side through all the years of treatment centers, always coming to visit me. She's a super soft spot for me. She's never turned her back on me, my number one fan, always there to pick me back up when I fall and just cheers me on and just supports me so much. But the ultimatum was that if I didn't figure it out, I wasn't going to be allowed to be in her life, which I never thought she would say, but even more so her daughter's life, because she said that she's going to have someone else to worry about now and she's just not willing to have that a part of her daughter's life. She's not bringing her daughter into that.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that must have been tough for your sister.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I couldn't imagine.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, so hard and I made a promise to her that I would do this. I mean in the beginning. I did it for her, I think in the beginning, getting yourself back into getting clean again. You don't do it for yourself. Initially I think I was just in a really dark place and didn't care about myself. Obviously I don't think you're addicted to fentanyl and have a lot of care for yourself. I know when it first starts. You're not like that. You know when you first try it that first time that's not your intention, but it just takes you down this dark, dark place that you feel like you're never going to get out of.

Speaker 1:

How was that conversation with your sister when she told you you need to get help?

Speaker 2:

Well, I was on my way, I called her and I was like hey, like I'm going to a program, and she just said it. And she said it. So, matter of factly, it was like one of the hardest conversations I've ever had, and I'm sure it's probably one of the hardest conversations she's ever had. But I told her I'm going to get clean and I'm going to stick to it this time, and I've said that in the past.

Speaker 1:

You've heard it so many times, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, you've said it before.

Speaker 2:

And what does my mom always call it? The tough love. I think I really needed that in that period.

Speaker 1:

Did she make you feel like she was judging you during the conversation?

Speaker 2:

She said I can't watch you hurt like this, I can't watch you do this to yourself and I can't allow it to be in my daughter's life. She wasn't judging me. She's never judged me, she's never understood it either. She just couldn't take it anymore. I was killing myself. Of course I was killing myself and that is like her worst fear is like her getting that call or waking up to me not being here anymore. She always says I don't know what I would do. I mean, we're like this absolute best friend in the whole wide world.

Speaker 1:

Gabrielle, what was the biggest motivator for you to get sober? Her baby? Did anyone judging you or making you feel worse about yourself make a difference in wanting to get sober?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course that lights a fire under your butt. I was in the program and one of the counselors at the time made this comment that I wasn't going to see it through, I wasn't going to last the whole year. And I was like, oh okay, you think I can't do this? And I've always been one of those people like, okay, I'm going to prove you wrong, like just for the point of you're not going to put me down and say I can't do something, because I know I can do whatever I put my heart to.

Speaker 1:

Was it a judgmental comment, or he was challenging you, or what was that interaction like?

Speaker 2:

I was really close with her. Still, I just talked to her on the phone the other day. I think as someone else it could have been taken as judgmental, but because I know her now and know her character, it was a challenge. I think she saw a lot of herself in me and knew that's something that got her to stick it through, was like someone saying, oh no, you're not going to do it and we're close today. And when I graduated she shook my hand at the ceremony or whatever, and she was like I knew you were going to do it. Oh, wow, yeah. So I was like, oh okay, so you did that because you were pushing me. And she pushed me throughout my whole program oh my gosh. And she was the director of the center that I was at. And, oh my gosh, this lady pushed me past my limits some days, but she always told me exactly like it was, didn't sugarcoat it, she had been through it herself and so she was speaking from experience.

Speaker 1:

So it sounds like it was less judgment and more challenging.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned the correctional officer. The first one made you just feel horrible. Did that motivate you at all?

Speaker 2:

No, I mean, it sounds like it just hurt it just hurt.

Speaker 2:

It just makes it less than I mean. It obviously had an effect because I compare the two correctional officers so obviously there was an effect there. But it just hurt At that point. After being in and out of treatment centers and stuff over the years you just get used to people treating you like that, unfortunately. I know it shouldn't be like that. Some people just are gonna treat you like that and that's okay. That's a them problem, not a me problem did you know that at the time?

Speaker 2:

if I did, I didn't recognize it as that at the time. Okay, I just thought, oh my gosh, this lady is super miserable. Like why is she doing this job? This is the people that she chose to work with. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

But I think now, as a different person today, who knows what she was going through? Who knows if her sister was an addict and it brought something up for her or her mom? You know what I mean. Who knows? Maybe she was just having a bad week? I mean, I pray to God she doesn't treat everybody that walks through there like that, because I think it could be detrimental to some people. But I think that I'm one of the fortunate ones who has the support of my family and of the people around me who love me so much that someone like that's opinion doesn't weigh compared to the people who love me and support me's opinion. But I couldn't imagine like someone making me feel like that and not having the people who love me and support me as opinion. But I couldn't imagine like someone making me feel like that and not having the people behind me. I wouldn't even know what that would be like. I just have my family support.

Speaker 1:

Gabrielle, tell me, if someone walked into your restaurant next week and said, hey, I'm trying to get sober, do you know anywhere I can go? What sort of language would you use with them? How would you talk to them? Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Well, I would sit down. It wouldn't just be like in passing, like bringing someone to ranch. I would sit down and just I think it would be like I know where you're at, you're not alone with where you're at, I've been exactly where you are and there's so many avenues nowadays that you can take to get better. Obviously, like my number one thing would be to teen challenge, because that's the place that worked for me, but I know that that's not the only option and that's not a one size fits all. Obviously, no program is. I've tried numerous different types of programs and not everything works for everybody, but I I would say that to someone, this is what worked for me. But there's so many options, so many different options that you could take. There's conscious recovery, there's the 12 steps.

Speaker 1:

There's just so many different avenues to take that could be more fitting for someone else and I'm assuming I know the answer to this question, but I'm just gonna ask it anyways. I'm assuming you, as you walked into that conversation, would know that that person has shame and guilt. Oh yeah, oh yeah, would you try to address it?

Speaker 2:

I think it would just depend on, like, the person and how the conversation was going, if I knew them or if it was just like around a person coming in, because I know like addressing it is just so much more than surface level.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Not something that I could like really dig into in that space, and so I don't know that I would want to open up that wound in that space, and so I don't know that I would want to open up that wound in that space. I would definitely say, hey, can we meet later where we could actually like figure something out and start unpacking some of this and seeing how I can help you. But I just think it's like very situational and I don't know that the restaurant would be like a super safe space, of course, and I would never like want to just be like oh hey, I got to go run this food really fast, stop crying really quick, so I can. Oh, like I would never want someone to feel like that.

Speaker 1:

So what I'm hearing from you is first introduction to the conversation would just be to provide support and actually digging into self-stigma and guilt. Probably a deeper conversation, Is that right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. I think self-stigma is just a lot deeper than people. I think self-stigma is just a lot deeper than people. Even before you asking these questions, I don't think I realized how deep it goes. There's a lot there and you don't get to that point overnight. It could be years, it could be weeks, it could be months and you just don't know until you actually start talking to someone.

Speaker 2:

For me this is 10 plus years struggling with this and just being on the other side of it now for the first time for this amount of time, I've had bouts of clean time in the past, but never this successful, never this long, obviously. But being asked, I guess I've never been asked about the self stigma. It's always just stigma of being like an addict, like surrounding other people, how other people see it. The self, I think, is just like something that really needs to be like study. So much that goes into it. Do you still do 12 step work? I don't. I don't.

Speaker 2:

Once in a while, like I'll go to a meeting here in Hollister. A few months ago I actually went with a friend who I actually introduced her to 12 steps, like years ago when she was struggling and I was clean at the time, and now she's like a real big part of the community here and I was like, oh, like I. I haven't wanted to go to a meeting here in Hollister because of the shame and the guilt. So I was at the Sober Living, the Sun Street Sober Living, here in Hollister, and I actually overdosed there a few years ago 2019, I think and I haven't returned to the rooms here in Hollister since then, just because everybody knew what happened. I really didn't returned to the rooms here in Holster since then, just because everybody knew what happened. I really didn't want to run into anybody who knew or who was there at the house during that time. And so finally, one day I was like you know what? I'm just going to go. I needed to be around people like me, people who understood me. I was having a bad day. And so I reached out to my friend and she's like yeah, meet me there. And, sure enough, one of the ladies who was at the house was at the meeting. She started crying when she saw me. She was like I thought you died. I never saw you again after that day because I went to a program and then left town again and she thought I passed away. So that was hard. You just don't realize how it affects people around you, people who you would never even expect that it affected. So, like once in a while, like I'll go to a 12-step meeting. The program, like I said, I went to, was faith-based. It wasn't 12-step, so I got really into church.

Speaker 2:

I do a lot of like online churches. I work six days a week now, so it's harder. And I help my sister with her baby. We six days a week now, so it's harder and I help my sister with her baby. We work opposite shifts, so when I'm not at work I have the baby and she's at work. But there's a church in Yuba City that I watch online a lot. I just have a really close connection there and obviously I can't go. It's in Yuba City, of course, and then I have a pastor. So when I was in the program I was like my second day there.

Speaker 2:

They played her sermon on the TV my second night and her name is Sarah Jakes Roberts. Her dad is TD Jakes. He's like a real big time pastor. They played this sermon called Girl Get Up. I'll never forget it Like I've listened to it millions of times since then and it was just like exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. So I listened to a lot of her stuff. I actually have my sister like listening to her right now too, which is really cool. So I don't really do like recovery meetings, but I do a lot of faith-based stuff and then I just keep in contact with my friends that I went through the program with or who are working at Teen Challenge. I keep in like really close contact with them who are working at Team Challenge.

Speaker 1:

I keep in really close contact with them. So, gabrielle, tell me, when you look back and you think about feeling judged or feeling put down when you approach someone who's trying to get sober themselves, is there anything you do specifically to avoid them feeling that way?

Speaker 2:

I think just showing love when someone's unlovable my mom's told me that I've been very unlovable, or no. I guess her words are I will always love you, but I've not always liked you. The kindness and compassion that I was shown by that CEO, I would aspire to show that to somebody else, because I know that that lady left a mark on me and I would never want to leave a negative mark on someone. I would only want them to think back and be like wow, that person helped change my life. I think that would be.

Speaker 2:

The biggest thing is just getting down to their level. Without actually getting down to their level. You know where that level is. It's really letting someone know that there is a way out. I think when you're there, you just don't think there's any way out and so just really like reiterating that you can get out of there, like you don't have to stay there. It doesn't matter what other people think. If you know in your heart that that's not the life you want, you can do it. You just have to have that willpower to just say no, that you just don't want to live like that anymore.

Speaker 1:

Our core values in our addiction medicine practice are respect and kindness. And I'm always surprised. My patients will come in after a relapse and they've got the negative body posture and they're feeling horrible. And I'll just say, hey, it's nice to see you, yeah, and they just seem so off guard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just happy to see you. Yeah, cause it could just so much so fast, not be the case.

Speaker 1:

Well said. And particularly in the era of fentanyl it is. Oh, it's playing with fire.

Speaker 2:

It's literally minute to minute. I've had so many people be like dude, I'm just glad that you're still here, cause it. I mean I, like I said, I've had so many close calls and it's just just showing kindness to someone. It doesn't take much like buying someone a water, like a homeless guy. Somebody out there loves you and you're not alone. You do feel so alone sometimes, but there's so many people who, especially right now, like I'm seeing so much like on TikTok, of people like getting clean from fentanyl. There's so many people out there just like you and you don't have to do it alone, which is so cool. Nowadays it's literally like a click of a finger. You don't have to be alone. You could jump on a meeting or get in touch with people so easily now. So it's just showing kindness and treating humans like humans.

Speaker 1:

Well said. Well, that is a beautiful message to end on, Gabrielle. Congratulations on two and a half years of recovery.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

To those healthcare providers out there treating patients with addiction you're doing life-saving work and thank you for what you do For everyone else tuning in. Thank you for taking the time to learn about addiction. It's a fight we cannot win without awareness and action. There's still so much we can do to improve how addiction is treated. Together, we can make it happen. Thanks for listening and remember treating addiction is treated Together we can make it happen. Thanks for listening and remember treating addiction saves lives.