Why Pushing A Loved One Harder to Get Sober Doesn't Help

Someone you love keeps drinking, using, or relapsing and you can feel your body tighten the moment you walk into the room. That tension makes sense, but it can also become part of the system that keeps addiction stuck. We sit down with therapist and family coach Jeff Jones, founder of The Family Recovery Solution and author of Rethinking Addiction, to unpack what actually helps families when a loved one is in active addiction or early recovery. 

We get concrete with a classic scenario from the clinic: a middle-aged man with alcohol addiction and a spouse who loves him deeply but feels forced into constant pushing and correcting. Jeff explains why “help” can turn into pressure, how triangulation pulls doctors into the drama triangle, and how a simple 180-degree experiment plus journaling can reveal new options. We also talk boundaries as a way to create safety, calm the nervous system, and make better decisions, not as punishment or control. 

Then we widen the lens to parenting teens and the added power dynamics families face, including why authoritative parenting (firm limits with connection) tends to work best. Jeff shares a powerful reframe from mediation: separate the addiction from the essence of your loved one, so you can hold consequences while staying anchored in love. We also cover structured family meetings, the idea that families move through the stages of change too, and why recovery is about building a life worth living, not only stopping a substance. 

If this conversation helps, subscribe, share it with a family who needs it, and please leave a review so more people can find Addiction Medicine Made Easy.

To learn more about Jeff's work: https://www.thefamilyrecoverysolution.com/

To contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com

Transcript

Welcome And Show Purpose

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi, I'm Dr. Casey Grove. I spent years practicing emergency medicine before shifting my focus to addiction medicine. This podcast grew out of caring for patients, hearing their stories, and wanting to do better. Here we talk about recovery, medicine, and compassion. This is Addiction Medicine Made Easy. Today's episode is on family dynamics in recovery. This is an interview with Jeff Jones, who is a therapist focused on supporting families facing addiction. He's the founder of the Family Recovery Solution. He has a Substack called Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And he is also the author of the book, Rethinking Addiction. And he works with families to help them understand how they can actually help their family member or loved one with addiction. And as you will hear during this podcast, I asked Jeff to give me some advice on how to help one of my patients and his spouse. And I actually ended up using some of his techniques with this couple, and it was extremely helpful for them. Very grateful to Jeff for his help. The interview begins with Jeff and I just chatting and getting to know each other. So nice to meet you. Why don't we just start by having you tell us who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Thanks for having me on here. So my name is Jeff Jones, and I was a therapist in Colorado for a number of decades. I'm no longer in Colorado, and I am doing coaching specifically for families with a member still in active addiction or early recovery. And that's the short answer. And of course, I'm doing this like so many other people because it w came into my life, and I grew up in a family with no active addiction, but my mother's father did. He had it was alcoholism, and he showered more love and attention upon me than anybody in my whole life. It was really noticeable, and my mom hated him. So it wasn't really safe to express that love in for my grandfather in front of my mom. And as I'm sure you know, that was kind of a hotbed for the term codependency.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So we are already off to the races. Yes. Addiction in families gets really messy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah. There's no one way that addiction in families plays out. There's characteristics that are similar for sure, but there's so many different relational power dynamics and ways that families do family together, and it's like how long the addiction has been going on, and if it's a child, then how the parents express their love or critique. So you're absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

So I'm looking at your website and it says you're the founder of the Family Recovery Solution. I'm going to try to be funny here. I need a solution for families in addiction, and you have one. So I need you to tell me what I'm going to do in clinic tomorrow when I'm seeing patients and their families.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Well, I do have a solution, and it's in a very, very 10,000-foot view in a basic way. I think all of us have been educated to believe that one person in the family has the addiction, and the solution is just that they get fixed. And the family's job is to push and poke and prod. And that's seen as the solution. And so in the book I wrote, it's it's both and it is a much better way to approach this from the standpoint of yes, that's part of the solution. The other part of the solution is to acknowledge that when addiction came into the home, it changed how the family did family together, and it disrupted that. And they can choose to do that when they're conscious and they see these patterns as opposed to enabling old patterns that reinforce addiction.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

So I just want to make sure I'm understanding it's helping a family member whose loved one has addiction to be aware of how the addiction affects the family and trying to work on themselves to be able to help their loved one. Did I read that right?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yes, that's the other part of the what we all know is that individual ideally they become aware that they have a problem and they get help. So it's both.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

And tell me, how did you come up with this family recovery solution? I'm assuming you've tried and worked with families and found things not working, so you had to forge your own path. That's what I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Well, you know, when I became a therapist, I really wanted to focus on one thing as opposed to being a generalist. And because I had these patterns in my family, and I was never aware of them, no one really explained to me these patterns. But through my life, it was limiting my belief of who I thought I was and how I could contribute in the world. And so once I started working as a therapist in different places, I saw similar patterns play out with professionals. And so in treatment centers, and I remember one specific situation where some therapists and addiction professionals are debriefing their clients. And it reminded me of the same kind of dynamic that I grew up with. And I just had this hit like, oh my goodness. What we're trying to prevent here is actually being perpetuated by this kind of language, by this kind of communication.

A Common Husband Wife Alcohol Case

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So I'm going to put you on the spot here. Tomorrow, I've got one of my patients in my mind, and I'm going to give a very generic description so there's no identifying information. And you're going to laugh because this is another one of those patterns. In addiction medicine, I see like young female sexual assault, alcohol as a pattern, or untreated ADHD impulsivity stimulants as a pattern, right? So my patient is a middle-aged man who has an addiction to alcohol, and his wife loves him dearly and wants him to stop drinking, and yet he struggles. I'm sure you've never seen a case like that. That's bread and butter of what we do.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

So talk me through how the husband-wife dynamic is unique in your work and addiction.

Self Care As A Clinical Tool

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Wow. With that description right there, of which there could be numerous underlying differences, but just that dynamic, it is very, very, very common what you just said. And I, oh my gosh, I don't really even know where to start, other than what I have seen, and I'm sure you've seen this, is the wife is doing her best to be helpful to her husband, and in her mind, helpful is pointing out what she sees and what she thinks the solution for him is. And I think we both know that it is going to be better for her to reframe to be able to hold the tension in her own body and do what she needs to do to manage her own tension. And that she has a hundred percent control over doing that. And she has very little control over trying to get him to do anything, and husband and wife, and of course, they have some kind of pattern in what their relationship is. And so teasing apart some of that is one way that I think about it initially, but really more from a coaching standpoint is just to be able to deliver expanded education to the wife about addiction and not just all the stuff we know about the husband who has the addiction, but the relational dynamic and the education is a big part. That said, no one is really gonna look at a a PDF or a book or s or something like that and have the this aha insight. Probably not. So I think with the education, they really need to be doing things to where their brain is working optimally. And a lot of the basic things that that I'm sure you know, hydration. So if a person weighs a hundred pounds, split that in half, so like 50 ounces of water a day approximately, and exercise, exercise can be one of the best things for the brain, and then their own nutrition, their own eating breakfast, having three meals, taking care of themselves, which in the program that I just talked about to you, the enabling health within one's body, that's what it's that's where it starts.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

It's almost like you know them. Yes. She brings such tension to the room. Lovely couple, they are the nicest people. But this is again those patterns, we're talking about patterns. It's she knows he needs to quit. And deep down, he knows he needs to quit. But when we have our appointments, I play referee.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Can I ask you a question then?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

And that is you mentioned that there's this tension, that she brings this tension. And so one of the things I think of, is she aware of that tension? She is not. And I guess, is there a way that could come into her awareness without making her wrong?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

People often ask me why I podcast, and the answer is there's lots of stuff I don't know. And in every episode, I learn something. So I'm absolutely, given the conversation today, going to bring that into the conversation tomorrow. So there's a a lot of different approaches to the family dynamics in addiction. But the the interaction that they currently have, and I'm sure you know this, is she comes into the room and says, Dr. Grover, you need to tell him to stop drinking. And it reminds me of when I was an ER doctor, and someone's teenage child would be using drugs, and we'll get to the parent-child dynamic in a sec. And they'd be like, Doctor, you need to tell my son that drugs are bad. And I'm like, that's not going to do anything. But sure, if you want me to say it, I'll say it.

Triangulation And The Drama Triangle

SPEAKER_00 13:01

And that's triangulated communication. And the drama triangle by Dr. Stephen Cartman, he came out with this in the 60s or something. And that is a beautiful model. There's so much information out there about it. The drama triangle, going to YouTube, checking that out. And essentially, this triangulated communication happens all the time. And you just beautifully laid it out there. Doctor, you need to do XYZ and you're chuckling.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

It's the parent-child dynamic, in my opinion, is actually harder, which we'll get to once we get through this case vignette. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Her core is I love my husband. I am seeing what the alcohol is doing to him. If I push harder, that must help. And I see you smiling because you and I both know that that's not how it works. How do you psychoeducate around that?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

I think some of it would be a conversation with the wife and asking her exactly what you just said. You know, it have you noticed that when you push harder, does it help? Or what's your experience? And let her say it. And then you know, it it is incredibly, incredibly hard. No one really wants to watch someone they love get worse and worse and maybe eventually kill themselves, quite frankly. No one wants to do that. And so when I am working with the hub person in the family, is what I call it. And the example would be the wife, this is a transformation. I know you want the transformation for your husband, but the transformation is actually for you. And so you having foundational support, whatever aligns with your belief system, whether that's religion, some kind of spirituality or divine law principles. And why I like that is one of the ones that is so specific is in order to help another person, the very best we can do is embrace our own transformation and change to the fullest extent.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

100%. I can't remember which book I was reading, but it was about relationships. And I'm married and have been happily married for almost 19 years. So it's been a while since I dated. But um, but they were saying that if you go into a relationship expecting to fix the other person or change the other person, it's a setup to fail. But if each person comes into the relationship wanting to be the best version of themselves, you'll make progress. And I speak about my wife all the time on the podcast. She is my best friend, you know, the most important person in my life. And she's also a physician and practices addiction medicine with me, so it's very much a family affair. Nice. Um, and when we were first in our relationship, we really both had a lot of issues, and we didn't know it at the time, but we each worked on our own things, and this is not science, this is an anecdote of one couple, but here we are almost 19 years later, and she realizing that she had to deal with some of the difficult family dynamics in her family, and I had to work on my own mental health, and we were able to grow together in parallel. And I think that idea of to your point, my patient's wife will do the most for her husband by taking care of herself and being the best person she can be. Yeah. It gives her the resilience emotionally to handle things when he's not doing well. And I've heard this, and I have to give credit. There's a therapist on the East Coast named Amber who runs a podcast called Put the Shovel Down. Yeah. And oh, she's amazing. I really want her to publish her work. She was on my podcast last year. But the way she says it is you've got to stop being the villain, right? So for this husband and wife team that I'm gonna see tomorrow, he looks at her as the villain. She's always bothering me, she's always telling me what I'm doing is wrong. And it's all out of love, right? And so I think that's what I'm actually gonna work on tomorrow, is trying to help them find a way where when she's frustrated, she can channel it into something else so that he doesn't constantly feel like he's letting her down and that shame and cycle of stigma and judgment, and I'm a failure, just worsens. Because it seems like that's what I see is he drinks, knows he's not supposed to, she comes into the appointments and says, Dr. Grover, he needs to stop drinking, just like we talked about last month.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah. And just in you talking about that, one thing I I think of, Casey, is and this is just a generic suggestion, but but if she were to try doing 180 degrees from whatever she's doing, and just do it as an experiment and say, well, I will do it until our next appointment with you, or a week, or whatever, and actually take notes. I'm a big fan of journaling, and just do it as an experiment and see what happens. And so the thing about experiments is they can be fun, they can be playful, and it really it will be hard for her to do that because she'll need to r recognize that tension, and when she normally goes forward, she's gonna need to go back, she's gonna need to put duct tape over her mouth or just silence herself. And it's not about being perfect, she won't be perfect, and and then it allows her to see a little bit about how he's trying to be perfect, but he's not really doing a great job at it because now she has a go and it can be playful, but does she use perfectionism on herself and give herself a hard time? And there's a lot of little pieces to that playful little experiment.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, I've I've not actually done any of this with them, and he still continues to struggle. And I thought, well, shoot, I'm talking to an expert in the family dynamics of addiction, so we're gonna do something a little bit different tomorrow in my appointment with them. Because yeah, he had a brief period of sobriety. At one point I was seeing him, and the most recent return to alcohol use has been very difficult. So, as the old saying goes, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So I'm gonna change my tactic.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

So the other thing that I think of is these people have been your patient for a while. They respect you. And one thing that I think about is the energy, your tone of voice, however, you do that, your pacing, all the nonverbals that you can play with may not be the right word, but that you can nuance to support the message that you want them to hear. And then I and with this kind of thing, I always follow up and say, Will you send me a text? Will you let me know? How did this go? And that's all the coaching accountability kind of part of it. But my guess is that if she were to actually do that experiment and sit with attention inside herself, she might come to the conclusion herself to have greater empathy for the challenge that her husband is having.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

And and ironically, this again, this therapist Amber from the Put the Shovel Down podcast said the same thing. Like, family members want to bargain. Sure. You want to try only wine for a week? Let's see what happens. And again, that idea of Well, I know it's going to fail, but you know what? At least they think I'm on their side. And then they can check that off the list that, well, that didn't work. Okay. This week we're only going to have light beer. Like, okay, we'll try it.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

And it's challenging. And from your standpoint, it is a challenge because it's being able to deliver a message to one person where the other person, they get a message as well. Like the husband, whatever you say, the husband's going to hear it, and it's going to have an impact on him. And I was a mediator for a couple decades, and that's a mediation thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Couple of points on what you said. So the first thing you said was, How do I present myself? So I don't wear dress shoes. I wear Vans or Pumas. They look like hip skate shoes. I usually wear some sort of boring chino dress pant. My belt is always interesting. I've got like checkered skate belt, and then I've got one of those ones with airplane seat belts. Oh, okay. And then I usually wear some sort of animal-themed sock. Today I have sloths on. And then I usually have some sort of eccentric tie. And yesterday I was in the office and somebody was like, You look like a punk rocker from the 90s. And I was like, I will take that compliment. Thank you. So, yes, we definitely try to avoid a stuffy doctor vibe. But coming back to one other thing you said, one point that came up in my mind, and I will out myself as being in therapy. I spoke about this with my therapist this week. I've had to create a mental model in my mind that helps me to not get frustrated with my patients. I love my patients. They're the most incredible people. But I started in addiction medicine that everybody was going to be sober. And you can imagine I was disappointed. And so I now in my mind, I bring one of three mental frameworks to each patient encounter. Are you in the I'm going to get sober bucket? Great. We're going to go that direction. Are you in the harm reduction bucket? Meaning I can't get you sober, but if I can at least cut back five drinks a night, that's a win. And the final bucket is I'm not ready, but I can at least be kind to them. So when they are ready, they know they have a safe place to land.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

I love what you just said. When they are ready, they know they have a safe place to land.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, the hard part though is that when you bring a family member in, for me, that completely falls apart because the family member says they're in the sober box. And I'm going, they're in the kindness box. And the family members like Dr. Grover, no, no, no, they're in the sober box.

Boundaries And A Safe Place To Land

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yeah. And the other thing that I think about, and so this is just off the top of my head, is being able to model boundaries. Like, hey, this is your office. And if you have boundaries in your office, it's your office. It's you're the king. And you can say what's okay and what's not okay. And in a very subtle way, being able to model to them boundaries to create a safe place. Because boundaries, from what I have learned, boundaries really help people to feel safe. And when they're safe, their nervous system can go down and relax. And when their nervous system relaxes, as you know, the majority blood flow goes to the prefrontal cortex where they can make the best decisions. And if it's the normal back and forth kind of show, they're in their activation from a nervous system standpoint. They're in their old habits. And they're probably not going to be able to use their brain as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I'm going to try to be funny here. It's almost like you're a therapist because you know what my therapist tells me every week, Dr. Grover, you need boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Obviously.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Obviously, yes, you are a therapist. I was trying to be funny. But yes. So ultimately, what we came up with is that, you know, I'm still going to keep my mental framework of sober harm reduction and kindness, but I'm going to acknowledge the family member's desire to help. And we're going to try to, in some of the conversations and scripting we're talking about today, help that family member to figure out where to channel their frustration and energy if their loved one isn't in the sober box.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah. Beautiful.

Parenting A Teen Using Substances

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Which is exactly what we were talking about. Right. Yeah. So, Jeff, let's pivot here. Husband and wife. In theory, there's some level of kind of equality between the two. They're both adults. We'll say it's a good relationship, it's a consensual marriage. There's respect. Let's pivot to parent and child. I saw one of my patients yesterday. Lovely family. Mom brought her daughter in. Daughter's using multiple substances and is really not ready for help. When there's a power dynamic, she's a minor. Mom has legal authority to make decisions. How does that change in terms of navigating the family dynamics?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

It changes a lot, quite frankly. That's why I asked. Yeah. Yeah. There's a Substack article that I wrote maybe three months ago, and it was about parenting styles. And I'm not remembering it off the top of my head. But what I do remember is there's a number of different parenting styles, and there's one that rises to the top. So my Substack is Jeff Jones.com. The name of it is Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And probably three or four months ago, the title had something to do with parenting styles. But the parenting style that is the absolute best is to be able to have firm boundaries with consequences, kind of like what I was saying before about boundaries. Like boundaries are there so we can calm down, so the nervous system can calm down. It's not even conscious. But creating firm boundaries with consequences that the parent is willing to enforce and staying connected with love. So one of the things that I've uh in talking to family members, I've always thought about the idea of, hey, when we think about addiction, when you think about your loved one, th think about them as two separate things addiction and the essence of your loved one. And you want to be able to think about them separately, speak to them separately, and take actions separately. And this separate addiction from the essence of your loved one comes from the old book, Harvard professor William Ure, who wrote the book Getting to Yes, a mediation book, yes. And so that is something that I have found super helpful so that when they are in conversation, they can be setting strong boundaries with addiction and still staying connected and loving.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

So there are four parenting styles. This was on my addiction medicine boards. The one you're referring to is authoritative.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

There's also authoritarian, which is the rule with an iron fist. There's the permissive, which is the pushover, and then the uninvolved is just, as it says, uninvolved. And funny story about permissive, one of my most recent podcast episodes was in an interview with one of my staff who had a really difficult life, bad addiction, now sober, now works for us. And she told us a story about one of the so-called cool moms who bought her and her friends vodka and sent them off to a beach bonfire when they were 15. And I was just like, oh my gosh. I told her in the interview, I'm like, I just got chest pain. So, yes, I actually believe, and I would love your thought on this, that my work in treating teenagers is more parental coaching than necessarily treating the child. And sometimes it's really frustrating because I come in and the family dynamics are just off the charts, conflict, anger. I'm even more of a ref. Now I'm like a baseball umpire wearing the mask and the little shield, trying to not get pelted with all the insults they're throwing at each other. And yeah, I I just it's I I love all of my patients, but teenagers are particularly challenging for me.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah. Well, and I I don't have quote unquote the answer, but I think it would be interesting to just hang out with the idea of what would it be like for you to let people know Dr. Grover has boundaries in his office, and this is what they are. And I just float that idea because hey, you you have that option as opposed to put on the black and white striped shirt and the whole and and I I totally get that. I have I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah, I mean, I I think for me it's I I need to get a sense of what's happening, right? So if we come in and there's clearly a very strong loving bond between the parent and the child, and the child's ready for help, and they're struggling with maybe something like withdrawal, that's a very different visit than I come in and there's conflict, and I've identified that I need to support the parent much more than necessarily their child initially. So usually it's kind of no rules for the first 10, 15 minutes of the appointment, just so I can get a sense of the scenario. But yes, absolutely. Like if they start really getting confrontational and be like, look, they're just we're here for a medical visit, let's reset. I expect you both to be respectful and let's continue. But yes, it's more just getting a sense of what that dynamic is. And Jeff, I'm gonna try to be funny again. You told me you didn't have the answer, but yet you are the founder of the Family Recovery Solutions. Solution means answer in my book.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, my working with families, I really like to be able to present information and let them make the decision, their best decision, because then that is a much better chance to align with their values and for them to be a part of that decision as opposed to me up here and them down here, and I'm just telling them.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

My guess is, and obviously I don't want to take away from your work and the branding that you've done, but it's almost that your family recovery solution is Jeff's menu of options that families can do when living with a loved one with addiction, and you give them options and they go through and see which works for them. Does that sound right?

The Healing Arc And Masterclass Tools

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this Saturday, I actually am starting a master class and it's six weeks, and it has a sequence that I'm gonna go through. And yeah, it is exactly like what you're saying. There are options, and one of the options is people can continue to do what they're doing. That is an option. But when they're conscious of that, it's just helpful to be able to frame it to where they know that it's their choice doing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Maybe this is a lousy analogy, but I'm a tennis player. And if you go to a tennis lesson, you might work on your forehand and your backhand and your volley and your serve. You'll have a favorite stroke in the game, but at least you know all of them. So it seems like when you're teaching a six-week masterclass around how to manage a loved one with addiction, you learn many different tools, but some tools may be kind of your favorites. Does that ring true?

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah. Yeah. What I'm doing with the six-week masterclass is I'm presenting like a healing arc, a sequence that family members can go through. And I think one of the things I have seen with families is they just have such a difficult time because culturally all the focus is on that one person. And the fix seems like, oh, we just need to get them better. We the family don't have a problem. We don't have an issue. And one thing that I have learned is that if the family doesn't change, one of the outcomes of that can be is when the individual does go through their own healing journey, that it may be harder for them to rebuild trust because they're changing quite a bit. They're learning a lot of things. And their family isn't really on board with what they're learning. They're not really on board with changes, and the family is just doing the same thing. And so the same relational dynamic that different people in the family have with that individual can actually make it easier for them to relapse. That might be one way to say it, or it can make it harder for them to progress in their recovery journey. Because, as you know, the recovery journey isn't just about stopping the substance or behavior that's the problem. Of course, that needs to be done. But it's about creating a new life that I enjoy and is fulfilling, and I contribute in the world in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

So maybe my analogy about tennis is not so good. It sounds like you're actually giving people a map of this is the journey that I think makes sense for loved ones who have someone in their life with addiction.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. Each of these six masterclasses is a specific piece. And ideally, they'll all be there for each of the six masterclasses. And in reality, we all know that's not going to happen. And, you know, people may be there for a couple. But they will they'll get a feeling of the whole healing arc because at the beginning of every masterclass, I'll talk about the healing arc and where we're at in it. But what you are saying about different techniques and strategies, that definitely applies too. And specifically in the way I have it set up in week five, that's all the strategies that I bring out for family members because at that point they have done all the upfront work and their engagement in new communication and new behaviors, essentially changing their end of the communication, they're going to be much more successful.

Family Alliances And Structured Meetings

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Jeff, as we continue in this conversation, I wanted to bring up another layer of complexity to these fictitious case series or case scenarios. So you mentioned in your own family, your grandfather was very affectionate, but because of his addiction, he and your mother had a lot of tension and it made it hard on you. Let's come up with another scenario. You have, let's say, a couple in their 60s, and the mother has had an addiction to alcohol, the father does not, and their adult child, say in their late 20s, early 30s, and the child and the father are trying to help mom, and mom and the child have a great relationship, but there's some resentment from the husband for the years of alcohol addiction. How do you make sense of these triangular or even square or pentagonal type relationships where there's different allies and alliances?

New Behaviors Build New Brain Paths

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah. We're here for you. We love you. We are learning that what we've been doing is in the language I always use, enabling old patterns that reinforce addiction. They would never say it that way. But they could say, we're realizing that what we're doing hasn't really been helpful to you or me. And so I'm in my own change process here. And I still love you, I still care about you, and I'm gonna be doing some things differently. And, you know, ideally we can check in and talk about it. And so another thing I'm a big advocate for, which isn't a black and white for every family, but that is structured family meetings to be able to talk about stuff like like that. And specifically when someone is in early recovery, every every time they walk in the door, they just get hammered with, where were you? All these questions. But to have structured family meetings, it's like we only talk about that in the meeting. If there's a fire alarm, if I'm in the middle of the road and a bus is bearing down on me, that's a different situation. But I don't want to be drilled every time I walk in the door. So it's creating structure, creating boundaries, and getting people's buy-in for that. And and they don't have to be perfect. It isn't about being perfect, it's about trying something new. And here is, I hope, the the takeaway for everyone listening to this podcast. And so it's when we do new behaviors, we are creating new neural networks in our brain. And I know I know you know this. And so there's a great video on YouTube called the Backwards Bike. And so these engineers made this bike with the headset, is where the handlebars go in. They have two gears there. So when they turn the handlebars to the right, the bike actually goes to the left. And it is so funny. And it has taken, I think the guy in that video, he said it it took him two or three months to be able to ride that bike, where his child, who's maybe five or six, it took two weeks or something. But so the new behaviors kind of thing, and this is something I do. I brush my teeth with my non-dominant hand, eat with a non-dominant hand. It's like, hey, I'm a human too. I have neural networks and habits set up.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

I was just checking out the backwards bicycle. I'm fascinated. Yes. One thing that I wanted to come back to that you said is I did not realize, and it makes perfect sense that the person with addiction is going through the stages of change, right? Contemplation, preparation, action, maintenance. But you said it, the family member has to go through that too. That didn't did not even occur to me. This is why I podcast.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah. Yeah. That's beautifully said. And that stages a change. That is just a beautiful model to say, hey, we're in this together. Your change looks like this. My change is different. But I'm in my own change process too.

Where To Find Jeff And Final Hope

SPEAKER_01 43:25

You are helping me so much for tomorrow. This is amazing. So, Jeff, we've talked about a ton of things, and you clearly know a lot about this topic. If folks want to learn more about your work, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 43:37

So, my website is the Family Recovery Solution.com. And at the end of last year, I had a book come out, and that is Rethinking Addiction. The subtitle is The New Family Recovery Solution. You can get that on that website, and I do have a Masterclass thing that I am going to be doing for a while, and there will probably be some follow-up from that. So there's a lot of good information on there. And the blog is the Substack that I mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

So my love language as a doctor is buying books for my patients. I probably buy a couple of books a week for my patients. And kind of like a podcast episode, patients will come to me with a complicated problem, and it's a lot of work to go through it. But if I give them a book, they can make progress on their own. And same thing with a podcast episode, right? The next time I've got a difficult family interaction, I'm going to say, I have something for you to listen to. Jeff Jones and I figured this all out, so you don't have to. So yeah, I'll be definitely buying some copies of your book for my my patients and their families. So as we wrap up, any words of wisdom that you wanted to leave with the audience?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I think one thing I can say is there is always hope. And I've mentioned a couple times here this larger dynamic that we've all learned in our culture that it's just one person who has the problem and they're the ones that need to change it. For family members, there's so many different things they can do other than the normal poke, prod, shame, judge, create this tension. There's so many other things that they can do. And I want families to know that they do have the power to make change first while their loved one is still in active addiction.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

As I like to say, treating addiction is a team sport. Jeff, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for your time and expertise. Thank you so much for listening to Addiction Medicine Made Easy. If you found this helpful, please leave a review. It really helps others find the show. And a huge thank you to Central Coast Overdose Prevention for supporting this podcast. And always remember treating addiction saves lives.