How AI Could Heal a Generation Mental Health to AI Leader w/ Nicole Gibson

Can AI help understand our emotional state? Nicole Gibson, founder of Love Out Loud and co-founder of inTruth, shares how a recovery journey became a product mission, and how she’s using AI in mental health to scale evidence-based impact, leadership, and a love-led culture.

Watch for:
From anorexia recovery to national advocate → AI product leader
The origin of Love Out Loud and community design that changes behaviour
inTruth: AI ethics, data consent, and measurable outcomes in mental health
Product mindset for founders: ICP clarity, tight feedback loops, and validation before code
Language, rituals, and narratives that convert without sensationalising trauma
Practical advice for young leaders on purpose, pressure, and burnout

🎙 Guest: Nicole Gibson — founder, author, former National Mental Health Commissioner; Love Out Loud, inTruth

👥 Hosts: Chris & Mark — Digital Nexus Podcast (Australia)

👉 Subscribe for founder stories from Australia’s AI ecosystem
👉 Share this with someone building in health, education, or social impact

Chapters

00:00 From Rogue & Rouge to Love Out Loud, Nicole’s Mission
05:30 Overcoming Anorexia: Nicole’s Turning Point
10:59 Building Love Out Loud: From Grassroots to Movement
16:28 Healing Mental Health: Shame, Support, Recovery
21:56 Inside Eating Disorder Recovery: What Actually Helps
27:27 Trauma, Belonging & Community Healing
32:57 The Philosophy of Love Out Loud (Connection over Fear)
38:26 inTruth by Nicole Gibson, Building a Trust Layer
43:55 Compassion in Practice: Everyday Mental Health Tools
49:25 inTruth in Action: Authenticity, Privacy & Safety
54:55 Advice to Young Women: Finding Your Voice
1:00:24 Founder Journey: Building Movements, Not Just Startups

Links & Mentions

Nicole Gibson — Love Out Loud / inTruth https://intruth.io/

Digital Nexus Podcast — Chris & Mark (Australia) https://www.digitalnexuspodcast.com/

Tools & topics: AI for mental health, ethical AI, customer validation, product mindset

Why this matters
If you’re a founder, designer, clinician, or policy maker, this episode is a practical blueprint for building ethical AI in mental health with real-world outcomes — from research and validation to community design and leadership.

Hashtags

#AI #MentalHealth #NicoleGibson #inTruth #LoveOutLoud #ProductMindset #EthicalAI #AustralianStartups #DigitalNexusPodcast

Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Today we're joined by Nicole and founder of In Truth Gibson. Nicole Gibson Nicole Gibson, one Influential People in True company in the world that has biometrically track emotions. So we're always subconsciously, we most crave and we most need, quantify something that just But, you know, to me it wasn't a satisfying answer because the adaptation is like such a big part of it, of everything that you're doing. Exactly. Adaptation, flexibility, the Yeah. I think is going to, um, be the thing that that separates amazing entrepreneurs from those that that can't go that kind of extra mile. And most amazing entrepreneurs You have to be a city like San Francisco, New York, London, you know, like you're not gonna eat or pay rent unless you're the best. Every occupation that has been their emotion only deals with It's conversation. How are you feeling? Well, I'm here because I don't know how to express how I'm feeling. So this is really unhelpful In truth, we'll hopefully looking at this and back at the way we used to try we were as a founder. What's a non-negotiable? I'd say that the biggest one is that work life balance. When you're solving something there's no that is the balance. That is it. Um, don't. When you raise your first big People with lived experience of conditions were seen as, um, voice in how mental health I was following the guidance, meant to be a good performer, which was, you know, heavily And for someone that's going You know, I dropped thirty kilos So and that that happened in a The weaker I got and the more adrenal crisis or a heart attack I wasn't I wasn't willing to die about more than that. You can only experience the experienced the deepest pain. I had to rebuild my inner world Every thought, every behavior, self-destructive, which became I had to turn that into something that actually helped my flourishing. And I just thought to myself, like, there's got to be more to this. Nicole, thank you so much for It's an absolute honor and a pleasure to have you on our show. Thanks, guys. I'd love to kick things off just And I guess the knowledge and into the world around AI. Talk to me about the journey you are today. No, I think like any founder, It's the journey starts long Yes. Um, and in my case, that's very Um, when I look back at my journey, what I think I see the most is how much I've always been trying to solve this one problem. And when I met you guys, um. And I was giving that talk, um, think I was saying this to, most obsessed with solving a And so when I go back in my really childhood, seeing the having quite different to many different schools, left to go to an arts academy. Um, you know, so very diverse Traveled the world at a very Um, I was always perplexed by people's unwillingness to be present with things that were emotionally difficult. And for whatever reason, that that I had and this problem that know, if you now look at the truth, which is a world first to see emotion for the first first time, to try to bring some language of emotion. Um, I can see that obsession started for me at a very young age. I think it catalyzed when I went through, um, adversity as a teenager. You know, I went to an arts I kind of call it the best and The best years because I got to was performance I like. That was my first love, for The thing that I didn't have, work can help people find, was self-assurance and the emotional pressures that I was under at that role as a performer was at a young age. And for me, that resulted in eating disorder, which was, I in that a lot of people that go challenges, I think, you know, Someone that's dealing with example, you can't physically think, somewhat easier to through anorexia, it's visible. You know, I dropped thirty kilos So and that that happened in a And anorexia is often seen more condition, but I kind of see it I think that when you look at mirrors more of an addiction because it's a compulsive isolate you, that starts to know, the things that you truly and you develop a very sort of, around your behavior because you And I think this is what's quite different to anorexia from, for anorexia compared to other conditions. It's like you're unwell, but you So if you think about most other conditions, um, except for addiction, you know, you want to get better. Yeah. Cancer. You want to get better? Depression. You want to get better. Um, someone who's a drug addict or someone that's dealing with anorexia often, you know, it takes the absolute breaking point. Um, before they surrender, did not know that it was like, classified or like it's seen that way and not as an addiction just from looking at the outside like it's like exactly what you described. It seems like from people I know are a lot of those traits. So it's interesting that the Yeah, I agree, I mean it still Yeah. I think even back then. So I was diagnosed kind of I'm thirty two now. So we're going back sixteen years ago in the mental health system really like some doctors took it on face value because the definition of anorexia nervosa means a loss of appetite. So, you know, they're treating I'm not hungry. And I can I can tell you right too, uh, humorous about it. Like people that are struggling with anorexia are definitely, definitely hungry. You know, it has nothing to do Um, But I think, you know, there different types of addiction. Like there's a sort of gambling And some people are now acknowledging, uh, anorexia or other eating disorders as behavioral addictions versus like, physiological addiction, which might be, I don't know, like heroin addiction, for example. Um, but within that, you know, I wanted to live. And I think at a very young age, deteriorated so much, being sets you on a very different I think, you know, I've had the talk to so many different kinds And I would say in the kind of afternoon of people's lives, these usually tend to be the questions that people start asking. What is the meaning of my life? What is the purpose of my life? You know, what does it all mean? Um, but the addiction had such an intense grip on me at such a young age that I had to find that will somehow to to overcome it. Because the other option was to How did you manage to find that, What was. What was the driving force? You know, it's a really it's a because I think as as you fade for me, that was as my body was You feel in that state you feel I have so much vitality now and much I want to achieve. And I can see the future so It was like I was, you know, my spirit was moving in the opposite direction. I was becoming lifeless. And as that nears. Yeah, as that nears it, it's like something very innate and deep inside of you, you know, activates. And the weaker I got, um, and like, an adrenal crisis or a clearer it got that I wasn't I that my life had to be about And, um, especially because I had this talent that I loved so much and I was dealing with this very deep heartbreak, actually, because it was kind of comparable to, like, a sports player that trains, you know, their whole college life and then, um, has a life changing injury and they're not able to actually pursue professional sport. For me, I was following the guidance, actually, of what I thought it meant to be a good performer. Like I was trying to hit every benchmark of what that perfect young performer was, which was heavily linked to body image and all kinds of things, um, related to that. So to hit that point where doctor's orders was you can no physically tolling on you. Like, uh, theta, the type of theta I was doing was very physical. So I wasn't allowed to exercise. Wow. I had to, um, deal with that And it's like it, it's, I think heartbreak to your first it's how you envision your life. So I had to sit with all these deep questions around, meaning it's much more personal, isn't it? Like, because it's only you performance like an athlete. I've seen it, um, in the basketball space where athletes that either played college or professionally and all of a sudden there's nothing they have to stop for injury or for whatever other reason, and there's nothing else that they know. And it's like life becomes And they do have that heartbreak Yeah. It's harsh. I've seen so exactly. Especially because that industry especially a young female lose weight to a certain point. And it's sort of I had to process this level of abandonment, too, because it was like I was meant to lose weight to a certain point, but past a certain point, I became a liability. So I was encouraged. Wow. It was like a Goldilocks zone. Yeah. And until I was abandoned, you liberated me healing from that. All the bullshit that people get just vanity and hang ups. And I just decided to do life So I think I had a different set You know, there's and I don't Like it's a completely different But obviously ADHD as a child Didn't fit in, couldn't learn properly, like things didn't fit around me. So the one thing I learnt much in the same boat, is turning problems into superpowers. Yeah. To help us enhance the things get over that hump. Did that come into play for transitioned into, I guess, who Of course. Yeah, one hundred percent. I think you have to like it's like a there's there's polarity Right. Always. And it kind of sounds cliche to say, like you can only experience the highest joy if you've experienced the deepest pain. Yes. You know, but but that's true it's this corridor that gets And that depth always is a Very much. And I think in pain, the mind going to get through that pain. You know, for humans who accept that pain was meaningless or in vain, I believe is one of the most psychologically challenging things. So we have to find a point of And for me to find a voice, going to be able to explain my person could understand. So how was I going to build my And for me, that that actually Um, but beyond kind of entrepreneurship, it was about sharing my story and inviting other people to share their story, which for the first I'd say, you know, several years at least of my entrepreneurial journey, my focus was really about that. Like, I was actually not I never put it that way. I actually started in the is the opposite of big tech. There's cope out there, folks I mean, you had some incredible I mean, you were top one hundred the age of twenty one. Um, you had a strong voice and But you've one of your first ten not for profit was the rogue, Rouge, Rogue and Rouge Foundation, which you founded at the age of eighteen, which is incredible. Tell me about tell me about that Yeah. So that that was, you know, tried to go to uni for. Just thought the, um, I actually did get my degree, but I have no idea how I got my degree, but I did, um, you know, I lasted about two trimesters before I was like, you know, after that experience as well, I would sit in the back row of my lectures and, you know, Facebook was just becoming a thing that was like twenty ten. Everyone would just be sitting and I was going to a private four or five thousand dollars. No one was listening to the And I just thought to myself, like, there's got to be more to this. Yeah, like, this cannot be, this And um, I was I was thinking about how I wanted to transform that experience into something meaningful. Um, yeah. And I eventually landed on with a very different kind of I saw happening in the mental just timing wise, for people's before mental health became this Like when when I say mainstream kind of, are you a are you a K sports players, royal family members? They all started to talk about It became a cause that was on This was right before that, and I had this very strong view that the cause of mental health disorders, um, not exclusively, but was largely a result of social and environmental causations. And this at the time was actually a really controversial opinion because the leading voices were mostly, um, you know, well-known psychiatrists, psychologists that really believed this. This really is a biological It's more to do with your brain Um, but I had my own experience environment and changes to the improve mental health. You know, it sounds so obvious It kind of does because, like, through like, a war scenario. You see how they get massively So had it not been for that factor, their mental health But I guess they saw that as But it's fascinating that we Yeah. And it was it was actually experience of all kinds of seen as, um, unequipped to mental health should be treated. And when I eventually did become commissioner, the actual press person with lived experience Mental Health Commission. So it was it was a big deal that was actually a lived experience, you would be disqualified to seen to be mentally ill, you So you had people that, you an empathy, a true empathy for a empathy, actually, that we're calling all of the shots. And I started to grow this grassroots movement around that, actually transforming the skills that I learned in theatre, which was around like the basics of performance, which is really about showing yourself authentically. Like I transformed that into And I, um, in the early days of my nonprofit, I would travel to communities and invite people to share their stories, um, and set a set of a context that would make that this really kind of cathartic and healing experience for people like, you know, try not to judge each other, the open minded very much, you know, um, and I would see the transformation and people would tell me how transformative those experiences were. But this was so counterculture to what mental health said was appropriate. Mhm. Um, and it was it was amazing to actually traveling the whole Australia for about two and a Um, and in that time I visited Wow. Yeah. And it became a tour. The tour was called champions basically by, like, me wanting And then, um, it ended up which is now the National called they merged with another So art Australian retirement Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's so good though. I know and so like, you know it But as an eighteen year old I was like, oh my God, I'm a millionaire. Yeah. It's like I'm a sky high. That's awesome. Yeah. When was that? Like, uh what years? Twenty thirteen. Okay. Well, the end of twenty twelve, um, and it became this incredible tour. So when we first, I then had people and our two dogs, which what type of dogs do actors. Uh, so one was like a so my dog Chihuahua, and the other one was don't even know the breed. Like a small white dog. I can't remember the breed super Yeah. Not a not a Pomeranian. Yeah. I'm that's, you know, too many years ago, little white fluffy one. And like here. Yep. Yeah. So small dogs that were Um, and initially we'd have, like, maybe five people turn up to these community workshops and then just watching the power of grassroots movement building actually were with writing to local journalists. Obviously, we're going to communities where there's no news happening in these communities, right? So you are the news like you are the biggest thing that's happened to the Jewish community, just like outside where there was the line just before getting in here, guys, there's a miss Dior cafe, something opening up next door, red carpet out there, and it's like it seemed like it was for this podcast. It was not. But you had that. It was for the podcast. Yeah, yeah. So in Sydney, it takes a Dior It takes, you know, someone from So it is a but initially it was You know, people didn't want to I also experienced hate, you there's tenacity involved, you keep showing up and at a certain And it was actually we were and schools were asking us to. And then, you know, Sun Tzu was So we were kind of we had this engine where I really got to experience growing this grassroots movement from nothing to what became this national tour. And I heard in that time tens of different walks of life. Um, you know, we all grow up in the normal way to live. And I think that that's it's message and why I'm here to help no one way to live. This is something that theater taught me so much because as a as an actor, you have to break past, break past the barriers you create in your identity in order to be versatile as a performer. Because if you can never imagine or a whatever. You know, a bad guy or whatever You can't play that role. So you have to stretch what you identity to be. And those two and a half years on the road just took that to a whole other level of lived experience, where I was talking to teenagers in rural communities that had never left their community of a thousand people all the way to, you know, boardrooms in, in, in cities with people that have traveled the world. But the thing that touched me the most about that was, yes, everyone's story had different wrapping paper, different levels of privilege, different life experiences. But as they would really get to of what they they were truly Every person just wants to love It's so true. And that was it for me. When I saw that truth, I was expose that in, um, in a way dependent on one individual, frontline mental health workers the fly in, fly out doctors that communities once every two weeks everyone that needs help. Um, suicide rates at that time were on the rise, and I just kind of went fully anti-establishment to the mental health sector. And I was like, we need a And that was a very unique idea. At that time, I had a lot of I also had a lot of hate, as you would, you know, you would expect. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that that led me to serve as a commissioner, because actually the ideas that we were implementing in those communities worked. You know, they worked in a very Go figure. It was basic communication and It's like the one thing the You know, show some love and Yeah. And make people feel like It's. And it's something like a lot of They might not be rich in other means, but we we do all have that capacity and currency to give as much as we can in terms of kindness. Well, yeah. All we need to develop that what I saw. It's like the art of facilitation is you're creating a container where people can just kind of put whatever they're going through at the door for a minute and listen, and then also have the opportunity to share their story. And in that you have kind of two sudden people do have a They have a willingness to show They have a willingness to a in a different way. But transferring that to the lives, to me, became the next really good at creating spaces, eventually run retreats all over And these were deeply transformational experiences, very unconventional, but deeply transformational. We'd have people leaving retreats like, you know, leaving twenty year relationships, quitting jobs. And then also a part of me was do about integration? Because you expose people and You know that you don't have to You can make a different choice. And I think entrepreneurs are have to recreate yourself that next level. Definitely, the adaptation is everything that you're doing. Exactly. Adaptation, flexibility, the Yeah, I think is going to, um, be the thing that separates amazing entrepreneurs from those that that can't go that extra mile. And most amazing entrepreneurs You have to be relatively You have to have a delusional You have to be a psychopath. Yeah, but I, I like to sort of angle, which is, yes, I agree in understand how reality actually are we are creating reality with our frequency in all So it's it's less about delusion time to curate your inner world. And I think going through to rebuild my inner world from Every thought, every behavior, self-destructive, which became I had to turn that into something that actually helped my flourishing, and I had to do that consciously. But a lot of people go through challenge what they believe. They never challenge the way that they see the world, what they think, and that that was the gift. And I think that's the gift in all adversity is if you want your life to start moving in a different direction, you've got to change how going through the experience leading up to where you are. In truth, what were some of the you know, twenty one being in oh man, I mean, yeah, as an know, intellectually, I had the those kinds of roles. Young. But a twenty one year old is a and I think that as a society, appreciate or understand. It's the same with, say, you that that rise very young. Like, you know, they have The talent is undeniable. Yeah. Um, or they have the intelligence is undeniable. But at the end of the day, like And there were so many hard acted out like I had the I, you know, I was so hard working, um, really all through my teenage years and then probably until twenty two, twenty three and then my life kind of had this, like, stark contrast for a minute where I had high levels of responsibility. But I would party really hard. And I look back and I'm like, trying to cope. I was trying to cope with the I was trying to, uh, I didn't weekend and tell my twenty year writing recommendations for a You know, I just I had no way of There's no easing into it. By the sounds of it, though, it was impossible, you know, and then I also I mean, you guys wanted to get personal, but, you know, I, I also developed relationships with much older people. And I think that that's what I needed actually, because they had more capability of understanding me. But then in some ways, I kind of missed out on what a normal I feel like. I lost my teenage years to an early to mid twenties to responsibility and then kind of seven until thirty whilst I was and doing all the things that a I had to rediscover myself. Wow. And that was like a, um, that soul for me. I see a title in there, like how building my startup helped me find myself or something like that. I was gonna say, did in truth Was totally and like, as a I always see life as art and and You know, we're always subconsciously, I think building the thing that we most crave and we most need, like anyone that has drive. People don't just have drive. Drive comes from somewhere. Ambition comes from somewhere. If you were fully enlightened and fully integrated, you probably wouldn't have much drive. You're just. It's just an isthmus, right? So anyone that has intense trying to figure something out There's an urge or something I've seen it come from actually, come from a place of good. Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. I actually was at this invested And um, one of the questions So the format was like a bunch of investors and then they invited me in a couple of team members to get to know one truth. And one of the um investors asked the table, what do you think? Uh, the common denominator is in founders that go on to build unicorns? And I'll never forget it. One of the investors said Oh, great. But I was like, you know what? This is not advice. If you traumatize your children. Oh, goodness. But I think, you know, a lot of You have different kinds of Like, you have opportunistic emotionally connected to what And it's more just like you see I don't know, like the people that supplied Covid masks in twenty twenty. Mhm. Probably wasn't coming from a deep existential or toilet paper. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to judge because I story, but I, you know, I would, really go on to do something Mhm. There was obviously there was inflicted by the system. Yeah. Otherwise what's the motivation change that narrative, whether you've seen from someone else, and you feel. Yeah, definitely. I think it comes back to what know, I wonder if, um, Australia things are really good here as many entrepreneurs sort of we got there. The pain is, is not as much There's one hundred like we've got a good economic system, we've got a good financial system. Yeah, yeah, that that is That's if you go to a city like London, you know, like you're you're the best cheese. And actually the average it was told me this when I first moved God, what have I done? She said. The average amount of time that expats or foreigners, even people that moved to California from interstate America, the the average amount of time that people lost in LA and San Francisco is less than three months. Wow. So it it because it's you know So if you you have to commit and I mean, any like, expert who's nationality that's gone to a, Like you go to the Department of you you're gonna like I. I level of rage in me. Like. Like they make you wait for, I was gonna say, that's when you realize you're part of the system. That's like. Yeah, like it just everything is Trying to figure out the Like there's no place you can go America, that's like, okay, survive in in America. You know, it's it's very different, I think, to being an expat. I don't know, in like Southeast the lifestyle is, is easy. You know, America is not an easy And so to to make it there and getting the visa process, you Security number, figuring out You've got to want it. So that's from movements to Tech entrepreneur. How has this journey brought you I guess in terms of building out, in truth, how are you seeing yourself now and how is in truth, I guess, become your baby? Yeah. So what I came to through the those experiences like the opposite of grassroots, or, you know, informing policy politician, but you're involved Um, I realized that both those solution, which seems kind of solve because it was a paradox. How do you create something hyper personal, which is what frontline mental health workers or people like myself who were trying to do grassroots movements. Um, so very, very personal and human with the scale that came from, say, the distribution of federal budget. How do you have both of those And I didn't jump straight to tech, actually, when I left politics or like I like to say, retired from politics at twenty five, um. Went on a soul searching trip Yeah. Did a vow of silence in the really went deep? I actually wrote a book and that was kind of like my the beginning of my therapeutic journey. And the book started to grow this, um, this following of people that really loved and believed in what the book was about. And the book is called Love Out It was a philosophy. Yes. Um. And Love Out Loud explores So the philosophy to sort of that we are love. was seeking love. You know, that's what is both good and bad. Um, and loving out loud is the ability to strip the limitations and the resistances that prevent us from just expressing that and living that, and being that in whatever form that wants to take. And people loved it. You know, people have love out So that was like a crazy thing And that, that started, um, like I was traveling the world and that became my life for a good Um, and I was experiencing scale content, you know, that was That was that was scaling on a global level, not just a national level. But again, I just I couldn't let go of how much I, I knew that wasn't going to be the thing that was going to change the world in a thousand years from now. But I wasn't a technologist, So it took me some time to to first principles thinking. And I think the space that the created, that was the first time stayed still for you. I always traveled, and this is dark night of the soul. Like I'd never been around the I really had to face myself. I was so used to I kind of got everyone and everything in my constantly traveled, so happy to see me. Then I got to leave. Then it was, you know, my often, so they were always happy Relationships kind of the same So all these highs, highs, was riding high basically from through to twenty seven. It was there was a lot of highs. And obviously, you know, there But I was just there was always everything stayed still. And I realized that I was create a solution that wasn't. And so I came back to first what is really at the core of of know, to date. And it was to help people build And then I this was basically my Emotion is arguably the most defining part of the human experience. It drives more than eighty And so it literally is the thing And that's on an unconscious So even if you're listening to rational, you're not. You're not. Humans are not rational. We're emotional. We make emotional decisions that And that's autonomic. Emotions are happening every two You know, it's before the brain It's often predisposed based on Right. So you're. Yeah. Things you feel the decisions impacts of things that have person you met, whether it's the that type of stuff. They trigger those constant change of emotions and how you bring in everything, how you interpret stimulus, how your how your physiology interprets it exactly. And you don't even know sometimes, like maybe other people around you, if they really know you well, they're like, hey, I think you're a bit hungry or something like that, you know? Yeah, because you're getting a little bit angry, but you don't know. You don't realize that you're you're strong headed too, which people like us. Like I'll be. Yeah. Working for like, you know, twenty hours straight thinking I'm fine. Yeah. Because you're just strong But your body has, like, a very So true the measurement side of I think getting to that like interesting because that's a big Like, well that's it. And that's what I came to in that thought process because I was like, okay, this is the most defining part of the human experience. Who's measuring it? How how have we think about the standardized, we've standardized We've standardized language organize complex thoughts. It's allowed us to have debate, Without language, there'd be no grunting at each other. That was the original plan for Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Got it. There's a lot of followers. Yeah, yeah, people thousands of Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, so that level of, reach new intellectual heights. Yeah. The birth of, um, the Latin language, etc.. And then we did the same for time, Greenwich Mean Time. We standardized time. And that allowed us to organize It allowed us to meet at a place life to have more complex zones, etc.. Um, but no one had The thing that was the most defining part of the human experience. And I got really curious about You know, as I as my mind Well, what if we could do What if we could build a So I asked a lot of intelligent people why they thought this had never been done, and everyone's answer was, well, it's just too subjective. It's too elusive. How do you how do you quantify something that just kind of is there? But, you know, to me it wasn't a person I knew from my work had want to express themselves. But so often not being able to emotional state was the reason Um, and so that was kind of the And then the next was, well, how Okay. Well, emotion is autonomic. It's happening in the nervous Um, so it is measurable actually like we have this subjective Is layer, which is yes, it's subjective. Like when I ask you guys, how And you say, I feel happy. Sure. That's your interpretation. Unless you're a Australian, it's like, yeah, I'm alright, I'm fine. Fine, fine is not an emotion. I like to remind people. Your girlfriend is saying I'm It's like she might not be fine. Yeah, she's definitely fine. Yeah, I can tell you that right Yeah. So, um, that's what by the time you've said that, you've actually experienced tens of emotions that have triggered, you know, like, um, like neurons. Neurons in the brain, like in Um, and I also recognize because everything, every, um, kind of occupation that has been built to try to help people with their emotion only deals with the subjective. Like you go to a psychologist, How are you feeling? Well, I'm I'm here because I don't know how to express how I'm feeling. So this is really unhelpful I mean, I'm not sort of shitting on therapy as it's placed, right? But but, uh, I think in truth, we'll hopefully pioneer such a new way of looking at this and understanding it that we'll look back at the way we used to try to get there and recognize that we were kind of, you know, using a, um, uh, well, like reading tea leaves. It's it it feels like. Exactly, exactly. Great analogy. Because because what you've got here and in many industries, like I've come from a background of like, um, financial market research and it's about qualitative as well as quantitative. So the qualitative have always Like what does this piece of But the quantitative that important in that space. And it feels like it wasn't And now you're bringing that Exactly. Well, if you go back to the origin of psychology, like go all the way back to, um, Carl Jung, like these are amazing minds. Psychology was the only quote to be considered a hard science is the only science, right? I know that, um, and this is, within the, the, um, the psychologists aren't real, you you know, the data you, you're So that's okay. Look, I have total respect for I'm just trying to make it Yeah, yeah. That's it, that's it. You know, and if you go to a GP with my mental health, they'll It's a Likert scale. And they'll say, have you felt On a scale of one to seven in Like it's so okay. Yeah. It's like, am I gonna answer Yeah. Like I guess how many so, like, Prepare yourself for, for for. Yeah I don't know. Yeah. Like. Yes. But also like, how do I quantify Like, have you felt tired in the Sure. Like every human has, you know. Um, so it's just bad data, like And. Yeah, like, in truth, is bringing up hard, objective, reliable, continuous data, which is the other thing, like, you know, this sort of what the tech actually is for the purpose of your listeners. It's an emotion biotechnology wearables like the Garmin I'm model, which has been taught to state and then can translate This is taking a reading every So all of a sudden we have actually mapping emotion. And when you think about the just psychology by the way, but most organizations, if you ask data right now? Because it is very interesting The sentiment of your team, you feeling about their projects and in real time. Yeah. Well, the way that they're currently capturing it is an evaluation once a year or twice a year, and it's a self-assessment and it's subjective report. So maybe you have you know, as as a company leader, you have two data points annually on Chris. What if we could replace that with a data point every two hundred milliseconds? So the fidelity difference in Like that to me, is the real goal is to have a data set this data is considered equally data points that we leverage and global decision making. Because at the moment, global You've had projects like, um, you know, the Global Happiness Index. You know, you've had people attempt it, but it's so hard to implement. It's still so subjective. But this this gives us an ability to actually build hard data. One of the points touched on is, in leadership and business. Seeing how the team are tracking or even your yourself within the business. Um, not touching necessarily on the security or the data that your personal information, but the, I guess the privacy around your emotions in work environments. How do you see that with your So the thing that comes to mind is, I know you had a meeting with your boss, didn't turn out, didn't turn out as good as you thought. And you walk out and you're your gut and watch picks up. You're a bit of a heart rate increase and you're a bit of sweaty. And so you're clearly Um, and that data then goes back called a manager, because it's the ones that get frustrated, Yeah. Inverted commas. How do you perceive that in the most common question we get, So obviously it's a really important question because, you know, if, if, um, anyone's looked at any of Intuit's content, like we are really gung ho when it comes to data sovereignty as a, as a topic in a subject. Um, and I'm so, I'm so even actively, um, lobbying in biotechnology is, are regulated Um, data is only used in the interest of public health because that is a that is a dark rabbit hole. We'll get to that in a minute. Oh, we didn't even start. But we were talking about the So imagine like a machine having that information, knowing how you're going to react before you do it. Not good. I thought we were calling them No, but now knows your Yeah. And all of your emotional. Very scary. So, um. So the first thing we, um, as a you're an organization that's the employee, are the only one What the employer gets is the So there's no individuated data. Very smart. They they see the aggregate Um, and you even have to be at a certain team size in order to do that. So it's, you know, impossible to Basically a small startup with I know it wasn't me that said But, you know, that's that's really interesting that you're doing it that way because a the company is still getting great insights at that aggregate level. Yeah. Like yeah like Jenny from HR shouldn't really care about your what you were feeling on Tuesday at ten a m. You know that's not the data that's going to help them make constructive organizational decisions. On the other hand, what's really individual, as part of the get that individual report. So you get that, you get that to understand yourself. And we hope that that changes then kind of twofold that the organization can make more constructive decisions. But the individuals are actually empowered with that self-awareness and that self-growth and seeing themselves compared to what the norm is. And maybe it's like, wow, I'm different versus my peers. Am I in the right company? Yeah, totally. That, you know, you subjectively Yeah, fine. But I think, you know, it goes this podcast, it was all about of stuff, and there was no voice standardize, measure, quantify insights that are coming out because there is this what hopefully, you know, it spreads podcast, but from many. It gives language to where there wasn't a language before and a common kind of standard of doing it. So it's amazing that standards kind of stuff. I love that you've brought that into the conversation, because this is why we call what we're building in Elm an emotion language model. Um, obviously, you know, a play of how nuanced it is. Whenever I don't believe we're fully comprehensive but what in truth can do is go Because it's data. Yeah. So I believe that we can actually educate and empower our users to such a degree that they become fluent in understanding that data. So say you're in a relationship and you're going through conflict. Imagine being able to show each other that data and have the opportunity for immediate empathy. Wow. Past all the miscommunication I know exactly how this conflict I can read that data, actually That's amazing. Like, it's coming from my background as a data visualization person. Like I'm loving all of that kind But just from having those visualized is what gets you to understanding far quicker than it's so hard. Like, you know, I, for example, am quite a like a logical I have strong logic. None of us are fully logical, as But if something if someone's doesn't make sense, I really get past it. Right. So that that can mean that if I'm not self-aware, I'm losing empathy quite quickly because I'm getting hung up on what they're saying. Doesn't make any sense. And as someone that really like empathetic person to the best of my empathy starts to wane But if I had something that truly made sense to me and I could understand it, then I just feel like for people like myself, my empathy would just be infinite. And I think that would kind of be that's my hope, is that in truth, can create this ability for us to just understand each other at the deepest level and just evolve beyond these ridiculous conversations around vulnerability, being weak, emotions being stupid to talk about. And, you know, there's just there's such a high level way of approaching this whole landscape in in my opinion, that's, um, that actually comes down to true, um, self-awareness at scale and to recognize that emotions are no different to breathing. Like, we cannot help it. Um, and by hiding it and doing through that repression is um, the opposite. You know, whatever's repressed in us individually or as a society, we're going to experience the other side of that pendulum. And that's exactly what we see Like, you try to repress sexuality and then you have a you have a society that's oversexualized, you know, and it's just trying to find its balance. But what if we could have the understanding and expose that so that we were actually able to be conscious and balanced in our decision making? I think now, because of where technology is tracking, that's never been more important, because the risks that I see especially, you know, living in San Francisco, you see people that don't have that emotional, spiritual maturity who are inheriting ridiculous levels of power, like ridiculous, like unprecedented levels of power where single individuals have, um, the ability to dictate what life looks like for billions of people. Just look at any of the current Yeah. Everything. That's insane. Yeah. Yeah. So we need this. And and it's we need those people to get interested in this. But we also need to help the dynamics and power imbalances Like if we have individuals with that much power, it's because we have millions or billions of people that are giving their power away to single individuals. And that's like it is going That track of thinking helps you say broken our systems are, built to perfectly create the But just how in need we are of That's a good way to put it. What's next for in truth, where you're kind of in beta. You know what's next. So for us, um, our biggest focus is working with, what we're classifying as high stakes industries, high stakes, high stress. So that could be anything from, say, first responders to emergency workers, even like lawyers, surgeons, um, where they're dealing with very high levels of, um, stress, probably, you know, big emotional highs and lows and where their decision making has very high consequence. That, to us is the kind of for early adoption. Because when we show interest as a solution to these industries, um, they correlate it with safety. So it's a it's a great, um, It's also very dynamic kind of Um, meanwhile, we're going So I hope sooner rather than FDA and TGA says you get the software as a medical device classification. Brilliant. Um, and through that process, we're where validating clinical claims. So diagnostic claims for example like as an as an example of that in truth can predict PTSD or in truth can can support the diagnosis of anxiety or depression. Um, once we have that tick, I as a biomarker, no different to to heart rate to actually make integrated into healthcare. Um, when you see your GP, a physician, that they would consider that biomarker in the same vein as every other biomarker. Yeah. Building some health tools ourselves and working with some pretty incredible people that um, and the biggest thing that we always hear is that empathetic side of specialist bedside manner and imagine them already knowing how you're feeling and being able to relate to you in that situation a lot more with with a tool like this or understand that like they, you know, usually they see you, you're in this kind of state and then they see heightened markers or whatever. And then it's like, okay, that But I was even thinking with immigrant parents or other a lack of understanding of your Yeah. Because maybe you will raise a different culture mismatch and And then seeing your child and It's not just them acting out They are doing it anymore. Yeah. Like you're understanding because like you said, it's a biomarker now. Just like blood pressure. That's amazing. Yeah. Like you wouldn't you wouldn't blood pressure of two hundred You'd be worried about them. Exactly. You want a camel? Yeah. You don't like camel. And it's, um. Empathy is an interesting thing way that we experience it. Right? But I think with a common much closer to that. I've got some quick fire This has been an incredible, Thank you so much. Um, but some quick questions for What's a non-negotiable for you That's an interesting question. Um, compromising my values? Yeah. Would be top of the list. And there's different ways that I'd say that the biggest one is, that see the same future we do. Work life balance. What's the most important thing That whole concept is like Like. Especially if it's just, I don't people that try to achieve that, when you're solving something there's no that is the balance. That is it. Yeah. It's not like workplaces and corporates going you have work life balance when you take away life. Exactly. I love it. There's no clocking off at five. Yeah. You're obviously we're here. We talk about AI quite a lot. What are the most interesting space and potentially things with the work that you do? You know, emotion AI was not a I started in truth. And now I don't know if it's just my echo chamber, but it seems to be a really growing conversation. Um, so that's, you know, an area very closely and then broadly, what decisions biotech companies deals they're making to. That's something that I keep eye on because it's my passion. Um, but yeah, like from the, um, uh, the side of building in AI systems that, that improve efficiency. Like, I'm all for that. I encourage my team to do it as stay human and empathetic would Final question. Uh, if you had to start over tomorrow, what would be the one thing that you would do differently? Uh, that's so hard. One thing, every country would Yeah, I mean, the two things, Okay, I want to find I want to actually be, like, the most Um, don't. When you raise your first big chunk of capital, do not go and hire the most expensive executives. There's the worst fucking thing The people that just, like, want their sleeves, are willing to rate and that bring energy and and be hands on. I wish I had done that. I love the reason I love that so much is one of the biggest things that people miss out on when forming businesses is culture. And if you just go out and find that big executive high just because of the number and the experience, you're missing out on building that cultural from the start. Whereas if you find the right person from the start, they blend well. You you're going from a positive growth and they'll learn with you and also the disposition, like I found, hiring those kinds of people. They sat back and they wanted a Yeah. And it's the opposite of startup You need people that are dynamic Yeah. And the irony is, is that, um, as this scales and stuff, your tool could actually be used to help other startups find those right people, which is the really. Which is awesome. Right. But please don't like, you know, use it to, I don't know, fire people and things because there's gonna be a PR nightmare for us. But yeah, looking at the collective consciousness and understanding coherence as a, as a, as a group, that to me is like one of the most exciting use cases. Amazing. Yeah. Nicole, we can't thank you I've loved it. You guys joining us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers. Amazing stuff. Very fun conversation. That was beautiful. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah. So I heard somewhere that you When AI becomes like, when AI Like, I remember having an like, it was all about like, oh, Blah blah blah. We should look at the idea and you know, the thing that kicked Didn't expect like hundreds of I'm like, I just want it to be a But one guy was like, well, if Like, okay, well, let's not talk Like, you know, it's the slippery slope idea on the podcast. Yeah. Because seriously, actually, If our tech starts to merge also powered by AI, I think Is it so it's like a robot that emotions and can manipulate you. Yeah. Like that's that's. And then as a sex robot like this is just a and then you have all these incels in the world that just, you know, it's a dark hole that that's what creates the guy who made the nukes is like, I become death destroyer world. Yeah, yeah. We are. Yeah. We're recording. It's like, you're gonna be