Bill George: The Way Forward Is Through Values

It is fitting that the first episode of Step Wise is a conversation with Bill George. Bill is the former chair and CEO of Medtronic, an Executive Fellow at Harvard Business School, the Author of True North and eight other leadership books, and a thought leader in authentic leading.

He is committed to compassionate leadership and tells his story in this interview.
Along with many insightful stories, Bill and I discuss:

• Values as our "true north" to orient us during turbulent times
• Challenges of external tumult on human needs of the workforce
• His own journey to pre-eminence in thought leadership around leading
• How meditation, reflection, and workshops helped him grow in his wisdom

We hope this leadership podcast inspires you to show up authentically in your life.

Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.

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To purchase Dr. Foster Mobley's book, Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, click here.

Transcript

00:00:16:22 - 00:00:49:18

Foster Mobley

It's fitting, and honestly, a real honor that the first session of stepwise is an interview with Bill George. Bill is the former chair and CEO of Medtronic, a publicly traded medical device company. Executive fellow at Harvard Business School, author of True North and eight other leadership books, and a thought leader in authentic leading. His unwavering commitment to integrity, authenticity, and compassionate leadership have shaped many organizations and also transformed many lives in my time with Bill.

00:00:49:18 - 00:01:20:09

Foster Mobley

He describes his initial interest in leadership and what drove his transition from leading Medtronic to writing his first book, Authentic Leading, in 2003. We visit about our common connection to and mentorship from another giant in the field of leadership. The late Warren Bennis. He describes why the style school of developing leaders was not effective, and shares the idea of a moral compass called true North and where that came from.

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:49:18

Foster Mobley

And he talks about the importance of grounding and values to help leaders address the challenges they face today. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Bill George as much as I have. 

Bill George, thank you very much for taking the time with me in a very generous spirit to talk about things that are very important to both of us, and I can't think of anybody more important or impactful in the notion of value based leading, which is near and dear to my heart than you are now.

00:01:49:21 - 00:02:20:20

Foster Mobley

All the way from your prescient 2003 book called Authentic Leadership, which I've got right here and been making my copious notes all the way to the most recent, publication for emerging leaders and all the way in between with True North and and all the contributions you made. So first, thank you for all of those, but I would love you to take a minute and talk about the forces that had you create your 2003 book, the original book, as you were coming out of Medtronic.

00:02:20:22 - 00:02:23:19

Foster Mobley

Like, why a book? What what was in you that had you do that?

00:02:23:23 - 00:02:45:06

Bill George

I've always been interested in leadership, and I feel like I've studied it, not academically, studied it, but studied leadership from day one. And there's a big push in the 90s on leadership style. And I said, look, I have no standing in leadership. There are people who are damning, like Warren Bennis, Peter Drucker. They're the ones everyone looks at.

00:02:45:07 - 00:03:03:08

Bill George

I have no standing. I can't write a book. And I said, we'll give it a shot. So then I put a book together and work. And when I first introduced authentic leadership, everyone said, what does it mean to be authentic? And I realized the reason people are asking a question is they felt they had to make a mask to work.

00:03:03:10 - 00:03:24:20

Bill George

Bill, if you knew who I was, I would I would get fired if you really knew who I was and what I believe. I have to kind of put on this mask. And so my whole argument was, no, be yourself. That's good enough. That's a cliche. Oscar Wilde tells, you know, just be yourself, Foster. Everyone else has taken and you really can't be somebody different.

00:03:24:20 - 00:03:48:19

Bill George

So that led me to start writing, and I did write. Authentic Leadership now, 20 years ago this week, I went to Harvard Business School and started teaching first class. I walked into or for some, I went to a faculty meeting. I talked to Kim Clark, the dean, and he said, Bill, you wrote a great book about yourself.

00:03:48:19 - 00:04:05:05

Bill George

Now you have to write a book about other people. And I could take that two ways. I could take it as a put down, you know, or a challenge. So I took it as a challenge. And then we went out and interviewed 125 people for True North. People were very honest. Maybe there is a trust there or something because I didn't know.

00:04:05:06 - 00:04:24:09

Bill George

I knew some of these people and all of so that, then became True North. And that was kind of we just kind of fell into the phrase true north. And because somebody said that in an interview. And so I went back, hey, maybe that's it, maybe that's who I am. Maybe that's my moral compass. Maybe that's the essence of who I am.

00:04:24:11 - 00:04:42:01

Bill George

So we tried to define the essence of who I am. And what's important is a friend of mine says, you know, Bill, everyone is fighting some great battle in life. You don't know what it is, because if you look at the person by the external appearance, you're never going to understand who they are.

00:04:42:03 - 00:05:06:00

Foster Mobley

Well, I love the comment. We're all fighting some sort of challenge. Most of us can't see the challenges. The other faces. If we, you know, the conclusions some of us will draw is that we need to approach humanity with some empathy, lead with a little understanding as opposed to judgment. You know, there's a quote that you wrote in 2003 that I'd love to read back, and then contemporise it to see how you see it today, because I happen to love it.

00:05:06:04 - 00:05:29:01

Foster Mobley

It to me is a kind of a great summary of the book that I'm trying to write. You wrote, “One of the greatest challenges of business today is creating a culture that is both values-centered and performance-driven. Many business executives believe they must make trade-offs between the two. I don't buy it.” Was your quote loved that quote.

00:05:29:03 - 00:05:57:21

Foster Mobley

So first, with the challenge that leaders are facing today, and I don't want to make this a litany of those, but multi-generations in the workforce, digital technology I you know, a new work contract between employer and employee quiet quitting pandemic geopolitics, all of it. is your premise still the same that leaders must understand how to work with both?

00:05:58:02 - 00:06:19:05

Bill George

If you're going to have a successful organization that could sustain itself over time, you need to be grounded in your values, not those five things you put on pillars up on the wall. And everyone genuflects when they come in. But you're really when you make decisions about, should this product go to market? How do we deal with this product failure?

00:06:19:07 - 00:06:41:08

Bill George

How do we deal with this employee that's not working out well? How do we deal with this situation then? All that has to be values center. So that's the core from that. Then become your purpose okay. And your purpose becomes something greater. You can make a positive difference in the world and that everyone can align around that purpose.

00:06:41:08 - 00:07:02:19

Bill George

And Medtronic, the purpose I'm going to simplify it now, but is restoring to full life and health. But everyone at Medtronic knows that. That's why they're there to come there, because it's all about the mission. Actually, the demise of General Electric, which is the greatest corporate failure in my lifetime. Let's not talk about Enron and Worldcom. Those were not.

00:07:02:19 - 00:07:28:07

Bill George

Those weren't real companies. They had no established GE. My father, you say. So I look at this company GE. They're always ten years. Everyone else you know and I got to Honeywell. They're trying to adopt the guys. They're always ten years ahead. People in Europe who were at envisioning where it's going to go. And then they went there and they would let a new CEO come in, you know, and take over and do those things like Greg Jones or like Jack Welch.

00:07:28:07 - 00:07:44:05

Bill George

Their mission was to make money. Well, that's no mission. You're not going to spy for people on a production line. Hey. Your job. Me, right. They look at you and say, no, that's your job. That's how you make our money for yourself. I'm just grinding it out here for $14 an hour.

00:07:44:07 - 00:07:48:06

Foster Mobley

I'm recalling the mantra of Jack Welch, “Number one or number two in all we do.”

00:07:48:07 - 00:07:50:01

Bill George

Yeah, exactly.

00:07:50:03 - 00:07:52:05

Foster Mobley

That doesn't inspire me.

00:07:52:06 - 00:07:55:08

Bill George

Or for what purpose? Yeah, right.

00:07:55:10 - 00:07:59:00

Foster Mobley

Yeah. We always ask to what end? Exactly. Right.

00:07:59:02 - 00:08:26:16

Bill George

So that. Yeah, that's the essence of, I think those two things today go together, but get the values right first, because if you don't, if you're not grounded in your own values, how can you create an organization? That is, if you say, oh, these are our values. Meanwhile, you're having an affair with the secretary or the receptionist in our company, and you're telling you about values, and you just fired four people for violating company values, and you're violating yourself.

00:08:26:18 - 00:08:33:18

Bill George

I mean, how can you elevate yourself? And I can name a half a dozen large corporations where that have you can do you bet.

00:08:33:20 - 00:08:57:08

Foster Mobley

Well, it's interesting too, because I happen to resonate very deeply with, with that approach. And one of the things that I'm learning through these interviews is the need to make those values much more real and dynamic than most CEOs, typically, or leaders have typically done, you know, values to your earlier point. That's something we do one stack hands on, codify and stick on the wall.

00:08:57:10 - 00:09:26:00

Foster Mobley

You found a way to make them come alive every day. And that's the call to today's leaders is, look, I don't know if your values changed post George Floyd, but we need to have a conversation about how our values do relate to the issues that are raised in our society that are causing our workforce so many challenges. So anyways, a much more contemporaneous dynamic view of, values, bringing that conversation to the front and center.

00:09:26:02 - 00:09:54:12

Bill George

And, you know, Foster, I really would say it is the post-Covid psychology, as I call it. You meant you rattle off a whole series of things that are different today. It's had a huge impact on people all the way down to young people the last two years of school or maybe didn't get their high school graduation. These are fundamental things that idea of burnout, to the extent it exists and these are really post-Covid impacts.

00:09:54:12 - 00:10:11:23

Bill George

It's caused a lot of people to rethink their life and their career. That's what it's really about. Now, I actually you mentioned quite quitting, actually. I hate that phrase because, you know, I would say to you, foster, that's the way you feel about your job. I would say you'd be a lot happier. Let's give you a little package here and you can go away.

00:10:11:23 - 00:10:31:12

Bill George

Let me get six months salary and go find out what you want to do. Go sit on the beach. Why do I sell on the beach? Right. So would you want to do your quiet? Quitting is very immoral to you, right? But I do think George Floyd. So I'm in Minneapolis. He. He was murdered two and a half miles from my house, from where we're sitting right now.

00:10:31:14 - 00:10:50:01

Bill George

I didn't know George Floyd. And, so we had riots. We never had riots like that in Minneapolis. Lake Street was totally wiped out. And all these little merchants got wiped out. A lot of the anarchists came in to the community. They wrote in, they talked to the newspapers. Yeah. They're coming from all over.

00:10:50:03 - 00:11:09:05

Bill George

and I had friends that live in that area watch them run by their house. So about four days into that riot I set up, my porch was a nice sunny day, and I called a dozen of my black friends, and I was literally shocked. As much as I think I have black friends, I understand their lives. I was really shocked.

00:11:09:07 - 00:11:33:21

Bill George

So I had to understand a life and have some empathy and my friendship. You know, we had to realize we weren't doing nearly as well as we thought, in providing equal opportunities equalize for, people of color as we thought. And what do you do? Have empathy for the lives your employees? My wife is was the first person in her psychology firm, to first woman.

00:11:33:23 - 00:11:52:00

Bill George

And so she was getting a group of 6 or 8 men, and she would say something and everyone ignore it. Then some guy across the table half an hour later comes out, said exactly the same thing. She said, oh, yeah, that's a great idea. So it's these things are, you know, they're coming, no question.

00:11:52:01 - 00:12:17:13

Foster Mobley

You know, I've been so impressed Bill, but the candor with which you've described your journey as a man and as a leader to get to the place you are today, it's leading from a lot more wisdom than than, kind of raw firepower that we used coming out of business school. the wonderful book Arthur C Brooks These Days From Strength to Strength.

00:12:17:15 - 00:12:48:01

Foster Mobley

Lovely book. And it talks about kind of the, the neuroplasticity of our brains that leads to that. But the fact is, the best leaders that I know of who have a few miles on them, lead from that wisdom. And not just routine, not just a linear, top-down power over structure. what? You know, you've talked about meditation, prayer, reflection, discussion groups, getting feedback.

00:12:48:03 - 00:12:55:15

Foster Mobley

I'm going to ask you kind of a tough question, but was there one of those that was most powerful for you?

00:12:55:17 - 00:13:15:22

Bill George

My, grandfather came over on the boat from the Netherlands at age two. He was an old Dutchman. He painted the outside of houses, so never made much money. He's put me down in the basement once when I was a teenager, and he said, we grow too soon, old and too late wise. And I realize you have to have life experiences.

00:13:15:22 - 00:13:36:13

Bill George

You have to get kicked around a little bit. You have to experience things that don't go your way. That caused you to ask the question, who am I? The idea of crucibles. It's almost like you're standing naked in the wind. You can't wear a nice suit to impress everyone and you go to Davos, it's all stripped away and you have to decide what's really important in your life.

00:13:36:15 - 00:13:52:04

Bill George

Okay? That's what's important to me. You have to do. And then you, you know, whether you're a person of faith or not, you have to deal with the existential question to like, why am I here? But my purpose, why am I doing all these things? Because anyone in a leadership role is under a lot of pressure. You wouldn't do this.

00:13:52:04 - 00:14:22:04

Bill George

I don't think you shouldn't do it just to make money. You should do it because you want to make a difference, and you have that driving purpose in your life, and that's what you do it. And you have to have a clarity about that. And I think it takes people time to get there. So what was most important to me, the most important thing to me was I went to something called, Cassio Costello, the and it comes out of the Catholic Church, came into the Episcopal Church.

00:14:22:07 - 00:14:38:03

Bill George

Right now, this is a kind of system you go into. You have to have no beliefs going in. And there's no altar call, there's no beliefs coming up. It's very non-judgmental. But people are loving each other. And guys never used to hug each other. My father never could do it. At the end of his life. Was never able to hug me.

00:14:38:04 - 00:15:02:13

Bill George

That wouldn't. And you have to have compassion and empathy. And you tell here people telling their stories are 15, 15 stories that were told in and are so powerful. I think that's the whole idea. We don't know who people are until we get beyond that. And so that really opened my eyes that I could be real. I didn't have to fit into the culture of whatever it was, you know?

00:15:02:16 - 00:15:22:06

Bill George

And, I could be who I was and so then, that was 34. And then at same time I was working, traveling all the time. But it was tremendously stressful with young kids at home. I go to Japan for ten days, and Penny and I have a deal. We're going to share all everything at home 50/50, because she had a job to guess what?

00:15:22:10 - 00:15:43:10

Bill George

I could get a job and she had a bill. You weren't there 50/50. So she drag me to a Transcendental meditation class, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and, and so they gave me a mantra and they said, now you gotta do this 20 minutes a day the rest of your life. I said, really, but actually did. And it was very hard for me to get up in the morning.

00:15:43:14 - 00:16:00:17

Bill George

I used to go in the office like chewing nails. I'm crazy. Boy, I got ten things on my agenda. Foster, you haven't delivered on what you said you would last Friday. Where are you? And, you know, really? And it just got me much calmer to go into the office. And then we'd have a stressful day. At the end of the day, I go home and meditate.

00:16:00:19 - 00:16:06:02

Foster Mobley

Fabulous. Yeah. I, I learned TM in the 80s and still practice. You really?

00:16:06:04 - 00:16:08:22

Bill George

Oh, you did you learn TM too?

00:16:08:22 - 00:16:31:13

Foster Mobley

Wow I did it is transformative. You know something? I took on in 2023 encouraged my my daughter who's in this business as well. And she started me on a writing group, based on the the work of Julia Cameron called Artist's Way, which is it's forced reflection. Every morning you handwrite three pages, three pages longhand. And that's my that's my time of reflection, too.

00:16:31:17 - 00:16:39:23

Foster Mobley

And it's been any counseling, any group work that helps me really process it. It helps me really understand it.

00:16:40:01 - 00:17:01:18

Bill George

So, you know what a what I tell CEOs today in our new CEO class at Harvard, you I you need to take time. You cannot be effective in a leadership role unless you take time for deep reflection. Just set all the electronics aside. Going to a quiet place that feels comfortable. And if you don't want to meditate, you can pray.

00:17:01:18 - 00:17:23:07

Bill George

You can be mindful. You can walk in the garden, but do something where you get away from all the day to day and really reflect. How did I show up today? How did I relate to people, and was I doing what I really found fulfilling? And I find your meditations. I come out of that with some clarity. Foster, you cannot have clarity.

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:46:14

Bill George

If you have a cluttered mind with 25 to do, you cannot get clarity about big issues, and and heads of our leaders need to have clarity. And I think we've cluttered them so much with statistics and data and dollar signs that people have lost clarity. And what's really important in their lives and how they want to lead.

00:17:46:16 - 00:17:52:17

Foster Mobley

Yeah, wonderful. Could we do like a few rapid fire questions to close out this conversation?

00:17:52:22 - 00:17:53:19

Bill George

You bet.

00:17:53:21 - 00:18:04:23

Foster Mobley

In 2003, you wrote most business schools and academic institutions do not teach values as part of leadership development. Is that still true and why do you think so?

00:18:05:00 - 00:18:22:02

Bill George

It is. And it's a big problem. It's a problem. We're having a university right? Today. We need to be teaching values because this the first time you take college, young people have been away from home and they now go from their family values to shaping their values. But why are we not giving them a forum to talk about it?

00:18:22:02 - 00:18:25:13

Bill George

Yes, we need to be teaching that our academic at all levels.

00:18:25:19 - 00:18:45:02

Foster Mobley

You know, the use Jeff Skilling as an example. You referenced his time at Harvard Business School in which he was cutting corners or doing some shady stuff, or in his case studies, making projections based on some illegal things. My question for you, rapid fire, question number two is, wasn't he acting true to his core values and beliefs when he got to Enron?

00:18:45:05 - 00:18:47:17

Foster Mobley

I mean, isn't that true to who he is?

00:18:47:18 - 00:19:13:05

Bill George

No, he didn't know who he was, and he didn't have some grounding in what's important in life. And Harvard Business School did not give that to him. I talked to some of his classmates, section mates, and he did not know who he was. And so he got caught up in the game. He was trying to. The greatest problem leaders have is when they seek external gratification, and it comes from money, fame and power, those three things.

00:19:13:07 - 00:19:32:04

Bill George

And if you seek that, in the end it will not work either. The money will blow up on you, the fame of the media will take you up and take you down, or you lose the power. It's you have to get back to your true north and that's the essence of who you are, your moral compass. And he never developed moral America and no one challenger.

00:19:32:06 - 00:19:50:19

Bill George

Right. You better my, you might say, Jeff, would you come by my office? Let's spend an hour together talking. So why did you say that? What is. What do you think that's all about? What are you basing that on? What your background causes you to think? That's what business is all about. And I can tell you right now, Jeff, you're headed for trouble.

00:19:50:19 - 00:20:03:21

Bill George

If you go this way, it's going to you may do wow well for a while, get 3 or 4 promotion. It's all going to blow up in your face. And I would say it to a lot of people, I've said that to people, please come by my office and let's talk. I wouldn't embarrass him in front of the whole class.

00:20:03:23 - 00:20:12:15

Foster Mobley

No, but that's holding up an important mirror and doing it in a respectful way with full regard, but also putting the mirror up. And that's an important thing that we all need.

00:20:12:17 - 00:20:29:04

Bill George

I like that the mirror, you know, and you know, there's a poem I called The Man in the mirror. Foster. You can't fake it to the man in the mirror. You look at that man in the mirror and you say, boy, I look great. Don't I look great? Well, you know what? Yeah.

00:20:29:06 - 00:20:41:18

Foster Mobley

Yeah. Okay. Rapid fire. Question number three. This is very heavy. One. What was it like cycling with Lance Armstrong, who was near the pinnacle of his cycling career in Aspen, as you refer to in your book?

00:20:41:20 - 00:21:06:13

Bill George

Well, first of all, I certainly couldn't keep up with him. He got up to the mountain, he came back and picked us up. Some of us who were coming up here and, and hey, you know, actually, at the time, I really looked up to him. I bought the I drank the Kool-Aid about his story about cancer and how he survived that, how he came back and won seven. Tour de France is, an unheard of, miraculous.

00:21:06:13 - 00:21:25:15

Bill George

And and he started this Livestrong foundation. He was doing a lot of good work. So I bought the Kool-Aid. It was later that I realized the real story. And so that just shows the danger that people have a false story. And if you do, it's eventually going to blow up. By the way, he could have won the Tour de France without taking drugs.

00:21:25:15 - 00:21:43:09

Bill George

You know, if everyone, you know, he didn't have to do that. If everyone's on the same page and playing like I'm a believer, I played. I played tennis for 50 years. I played college tennis. I tell you, there's a line there and somebody is determining whether that ball is inside the line or outside the line. That's all played by the same rules.

00:21:43:09 - 00:21:44:08

Bill George

Foster.

00:21:44:10 - 00:21:52:05

Foster Mobley

Yeah. And then final. Final. rapid fire question. Tell it. Tell me a fun story about Warren Bennis,

00:21:52:06 - 00:22:15:02

Bill George

Well, Warren Bennis is just a great human being who met a great deal to me. So when I was, I went to have someone working with me, supporting my book on True north. So the two of us went out and spent a whole week with Warren in his condo, and we would go in the morning about 9:00 and leave about one, and we go over every idea and true north.

00:22:15:02 - 00:22:37:17

Bill George

And he never wrote a word, but he had so many brilliant ideas and a great human being, and he would, challenge us and give me ideas and, you know, there was he said, Bill, there's a novelist named John Bard that who should build the story of your life is not your life, it is your story. And I try to use that to say you have to evolve your story.

00:22:37:19 - 00:23:01:12

Bill George

He had so many of these wonderful insights intellectually, very well. And he was a brilliant intellectual. And, you know, you get to pick up a phrase from Shakespeare, you know, and say, what about this? Or what about that? It's extraordinarily helpful. And, what a what a gift. And what a great judge I think it was when he died was such a great loss to me personally and to the world.

00:23:01:14 - 00:23:27:05

Bill George

because he had done so many good things. And I think he just wanted somebody to carry on these ideas and take them deeper. And, I feel very devoted to him for what he did to help me get going at a whole new career. Okay. Actually, I think you mentioned wisdom earlier. I think in the whole field of leadership, you have to have the accumulation of experiences to be wise.

00:23:27:05 - 00:23:49:03

Bill George

It's not some brilliant idea. You have it. You woke up one day. Oh my God, there it is. And you accumulate these experiences. So everything I've written, there's nothing original in there, my only gift. And I don't consider myself a creative person, is to pull together the ideas, that are out there for many other people, put them into an integrated whole.

00:23:49:03 - 00:24:08:19

Bill George

That rings true, and then try to walk it through, how you gain that, whether it is wisdom, knowledge, a sense of purpose, a sense of values, and walk through and how you deal with the challenges you face kind of pull you off course, get you off your junior, and then you get a little bit over here. If you're grounded, you come back to it.

00:24:08:21 - 00:24:12:23

Bill George

So, that's kind of where I come up.

00:24:13:01 - 00:24:35:06

Foster Mobley

I share that sentiment. I, I've been around the block a few times in this world, work with thousands of leaders as you have. And, you know, and also as a small business owner, made payroll for 35 years. And that was probably as challenging as anything else I've done. I'm just doing the best living of my life I can and, trying to live in a way of full integrity.

00:24:35:08 - 00:24:58:02

Foster Mobley

And I'm a teacher. I love pulling ideas together from a bunch of smart people around me and putting them in a way that others can maybe access them that wouldn't otherwise. And that's really my my calling and my passion. And that's why I'm so thrilled to talk with you, because you're a wonderful storyteller. I love your experiences, and I love the fact that you've been willing to share them with the world.

00:24:58:04 - 00:25:20:04

Bill George

Well, thank you. I just before I came on, I was spending an hour with the mentee, was 39 years old, been wildly successful in business, and I said to him, so I said, so what do you want to write on your tombstone? That you made a lot of money in business. But anything I put on your tombstone that kind of took him back to think about, you know, what what how do you want to think about that?

00:25:20:04 - 00:25:22:09

Bill George

Let's see, what's the gift he's going to leave behind?

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:27:23

Foster Mobley

I love David Brooks, characterization of eulogy virtues versus resume virtue.

00:25:27:23 - 00:25:45:20

Bill George

I love that it took me a while to figure this out. I was working to resume virtues earlier in my life. And look at this impressive resume I got when I'm in college. Or even after that, you know, and it's not a yeah, I think Brooks is fantastic. Yeah. And Arthur Brooks too and his words are types of intelligence.

00:25:45:23 - 00:26:02:13

Bill George

I don't I'm not gonna disagree with this data. but what I call IQ, but I think the second intelligence advanced crystallized, I think it really is a result of having many experiences is the wisdom that you accumulate over time. And,

00:26:02:15 - 00:26:04:23

Foster Mobley

Well, Bill, thank you again. This is what a thrill.

00:26:04:23 - 00:26:06:23

Bill George

And. Good. Okay. Thank you. Foster.

00:26:06:23 - 00:26:29:07

Foster Mobley

Be well for a deeper exploration of your own journey. You can find tools, stories, and reflection questions in my book Leadersh*t: Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or by following me on Social media. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time, step wise.

00:26:29:09 - 00:26:58:14

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Step Wise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by his Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley. That's Foster Mobley. We look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.