Erin Rocchio: Understanding the Real Pressures on Today's Leaders

Join Foster Mobley in a compelling conversation with Erin Rocchio, a managing partner at Evolution and founder of Wholeness at Work. Together, they dive into the evolving demands on leaders in today’s high-pressure environments, tackling issues like burnout, the integration of personal and professional well-being, and the shifting dynamics of leadership. Erin shares insights into how societal pressures are reshaping workplaces, the need for conscious and relational leadership, and the critical importance of personal development for leaders.

Discover transformative ideas about authenticity, resilience, and integrity in leadership, as well as practical strategies to build trust, foster curiosity, and nurture authentic relationships. Whether you're leading a team, navigating change, or simply striving to show up more fully in your life and work, this episode offers profound wisdom and actionable inspiration.

Don’t miss this deep, heartfelt dialogue that explores how leaders can thrive and connect in a world that demands both courage and humanity.

Here's what we'll cover: 

• the requirement for an evolved skillset in leaders to include EQ (Emotional Intelligence)
• what happens when leaders don't respond with an "evolved" skillset
• how work has evolved into a team sport due to complexity of issues
• her take on the antecedents of an evolved leader
• the importance of a supportive boss to an employee's development 

Hosted by Foster Mobley
Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.
www.instagram.com/fostermobley
https://www.linkedin.com/in/fostermobley/

Produced, Edited, and Promoted by Zettist

Additional support from Amber Jillard Consulting

Music for Season 3 composed and performed by Philip Aaberg. Courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.

Transcript

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00;00;06;24 - 00;00;30;01

Foster Mobley

Welcome back to Step Wise, a series of deep conversations with inspiring leaders about who they are, how they see the world and their journeys that have influenced their worldviews and values. Today's guest is very special to me in many ways. She's a leading practitioner in healthy, sustainable cultures, teams and leadership. That by itself would make this a must listen.

00;00;30;03 - 00;00;57;02

Foster Mobley

She's also the managing principal of Evolution, a consulting firm dedicated to the same with an impressive client list, many of whom are leading edge companies in the tech space. She's an author and entrepreneur with a personal brand of wholeness at work, and is worth following. She also worked at FMG, leading my firm for over ten years. And finally, she's someone I sit down with for birthdays, Thanksgiving meals and the like.

00;00;57;04 - 00;01;43;27

Foster Mobley

Today's guest is Erin Rocchio, my daughter. In today's session, several things stand out. The absolute mandate for leaders doing their internal work for leading in today's dynamic and challenging climate. Her take on the many environmental forces collapsing in the workplace like social media, the news cycle, globalization all pressurizing today's organizations and its leaders. Self-Protection as a coping strategy versus meeting the moment with a higher call of leadership and what that higher call entails, and why the traditional hierarchical or power over paradigm is no longer useful and in fact, is likely harmful to people and organizations.

00;01;44;00 - 00;01;54;13

Foster Mobley

I hope you enjoy this fun conversation with Erin as much as I did. Impossible, says a proud dad. Nonetheless, it's a worthy listen.

00;01;54;15 - 00;02;17;27

Erin Rocchio

Today I hold some new roles, so I'm now one of the managing partners of evolution, which is a coaching firm mostly focused on tech and high growth companies. I'm the founder of Wholeness at Work, which is a, I'll call it, a creative product business to support my coaching work that focuses on burnout and resources for coaches and supporting people through burnout.

00;02;17;28 - 00;02;30;01

Erin Rocchio

And I'm a mom of two daughter to you, a community builder, investor, and someone deeply committed to sustainability and well-being.

00;02;30;01 - 00;02;52;03

Foster Mobley

Wonderful. I'm just so thrilled with who you are and where you are and the contribution you make in the world, and it's really because of that contribution. I wanted to so desperately to talk to you because you are out dealing with a lot of leaders who are facing some extraordinary challenges. We could argue that these are unprecedented. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but they are significant challenges.

00;02;52;04 - 00;02;59;20

Foster Mobley

When you think about the many factors, what do you see? You're the leaders that you're working with. Most affected by.

00;02;59;25 - 00;03;25;02

Erin Rocchio

One of the meta trends that I am aware of is there has been a collapsing of the kind of global and social environment into organizational life. Social media could be a factor. I think our news cycle a factor I think, you know, increased globalization and connectivity in general is a factor. But organizations used to be buffered from the world at large.

00;03;25;04 - 00;03;50;13

Erin Rocchio

And now people are bringing all of their external realities into the workplace, and it's causing a lot of it's like an awakening for organizational leaders that have not been equipped or trained to deal with some of these broader issues, and they're now being demanded that they do from their workforce. And I think that's putting incredible pressure on an already pressurized leadership group.

00;03;50;15 - 00;04;09;14

Erin Rocchio

And I will say, in some instances, they should be pressured to deal with these things, right. In the case of equity, they should be thinking about this in a different way and be challenged and provoked. I call it like, you know, positively provoked. They should be pushed and stretched in certain ways. And at the same time, it's also incredibly overwhelming.

00;04;09;16 - 00;04;34;21

Erin Rocchio

And so many of the organizational leaders I work with are also, I would say, if they if they didn't come into the pandemic, let's just use the last two years. If they didn't come in to the pandemic equipped with personal practices for wellbeing, for mindfulness, for self-regulation and emotional intelligence, they're in trouble because they're now fighting on all these fronts, and they don't have the ability to restore and renew.

00;04;34;23 - 00;04;58;23

Erin Rocchio

They're they're in deep trouble. So now they're like going through their own burnout and fatigue and I would say cynicism. And then that causes, you know, as you well know, a retraction and pull towards self-protection instead of that higher call of leadership of like meeting the moment being of service and meeting the people where they're at with like a broader level of awareness and resourcing.

00;04;58;28 - 00;05;00;03

Erin Rocchio

They go in.

00;05;00;05 - 00;05;28;05

Foster Mobley

You make a number of important points, one of which is these leaders are feeling the same pressures themselves. They're dealing they're dealing with all of the same pressures their workforce is. And the other piece, a temporal mode notion of like, if they hadn't, if they hadn't been on the journey, if they hadn't been preparing for a different kind of leadership prior to the pandemic, which is, by the way, the kind of the fourth or fifth turning the fourth or fifth major disruption in the 21st century.

00;05;28;07 - 00;05;47;19

Foster Mobley

Every 4 or 5 years, we have one, maybe not quite as extreme or as impactful as that one. Maybe. But, if they didn't have those skills before, they're behind. They're behind. I don't want to say they're, you know, they're, kind of desperate, but it may feel that way. It may feel that way. My thesis here.

00;05;47;19 - 00;06;17;01

Foster Mobley

Erin, I'd love you to weigh in on it. Is that this time and these pressures require a different nature of relationship between leader and follower. Maybe it is a much more genuine one. Maybe it is much more human and authentic one. Maybe it's more empathic and connected. One rather than a power over. It's a power with and a really power with on steroids that we're all bringing in our humanity and into work.

00;06;17;03 - 00;06;20;20

Foster Mobley

And I'd love you to kind of comment on that, because I know this is a lot of your practice.

00;06;20;22 - 00;06;46;13

Erin Rocchio

I literally was having this conversation this morning with a client that says, you know, we have so much lived experience and academic research to show that the old model of hierarchical, dominant power over leadership model, the old way of leading, does not work and is harmful. And both men and women that I work with today are feeling that acutely.

00;06;46;20 - 00;06;55;04

Erin Rocchio

Like if you were only trained in the old model, you look at our new workforce and you go, what the heck, I don't know how to deal with these people. They must be bad.

00;06;55;07 - 00;07;08;24

Foster Mobley

If they were trained at all. True, because some may just still, you know, by position, by the will of the investor world. And so they're investors and they're great analysts. And now they're running companies. And they may not have any training at all. So they're intuiting their way through it all.

00;07;08;25 - 00;07;29;17

Erin Rocchio

But yeah it's not pretty. Absolutely. Yeah. Great point. When I say training I also even mean just like social conditioning, right. Like we all get training some way. But most of these people have never had formal training. So it's a lot of our work. My work with them is on one, exposing some of these mental models that they've adopted and then transforming them.

00;07;29;17 - 00;07;52;06

Erin Rocchio

And, you know, so the new way is what you're describing, in my opinion, which is relational, it's collaborative. It's also incredibly humble. And I think the the only thing that we haven't covered yet that I would add to your thesis is that it's also conscious. That's a tricky word, though, because that word has gotten co-opted by some fringe people.

00;07;52;08 - 00;08;18;19

Erin Rocchio

What I mean by consciousness is kind of continual awakening of self and other. Right? And so it's like, how can I become more and more aware of my patterning and my history, my past, and how that's living inside me today so that I can really consciously and thoughtfully move into the future with you. That's based on my values and my choices, not my past trauma.

00;08;18;21 - 00;08;36;20

Erin Rocchio

It's such a deep word that in and of itself, there's so many facets to it, as you know. So this is another place where personal development and leadership development, and you've been in this business doing this work for 30 years. And now I think we have to call it that. Like, you can't be a leader today, not doing personal development.

00;08;36;23 - 00;08;37;13

Erin Rocchio

You just can't.

00;08;37;19 - 00;08;42;12

Foster Mobley

It's hard to imagine operating in this society without doing some sort of personal development. You know.

00;08;42;12 - 00;08;42;27

Erin Rocchio

Exactly.

00;08;42;27 - 00;09;06;02

Foster Mobley

One of the thoughts that occurred to me at very Cynical one, we've been trying to teach people more conscious approaches to conflict for many years, and it feels as though we've gone completely backwards and off the reservation societally, with the loss of civility, binary thinking my way or no way, my way or you're stupid or bad, you're flawed.

00;09;06;05 - 00;09;38;10

Foster Mobley

A lot of shaming. That's the meta or meta societal messages these days. And yet we're asking leaders to behave. They're leaders of businesses that we work with and nonprofits, I guess. But, more contrasting leaders of businesses to be asked to act in a more aware and I'll use a different word than conscious, although I love the word is intentional to be intentional and align who you are and what you say is important to you with your actions and your accountability and all that kind of stuff.

00;09;38;12 - 00;09;44;01

Foster Mobley

But it's just struck me that it's, you know, like, oh, all that work. And now we're.

00;09;44;03 - 00;10;05;06

Erin Rocchio

If you only look at the evidence externally, you could easily make that conclusion or come to that conclusion. This is one of the reasons I'm such a nerd for integral theory, because it looks at the backlash that we're seeing as part of spiral development. So it's we're still moving forward, but what's happening at the collective level of awareness feels a bit like a whiplash.

00;10;05;06 - 00;10;31;26

Erin Rocchio

And this is how we grow as a society. And I am not smart enough to talk about the meta society and our level of consciousness as a whole. But there are some really powerful thinkers on that topic. I just think that organizational leaders, you know, like, let's think about, for example, a founder or someone who's only been to business school and is coming in to BSc level, leader of a small and growing company, right.

00;10;31;29 - 00;11;00;04

Erin Rocchio

So they're coming in thinking about product or they're thinking about, you know, the service that they're going to be developing and offering in their business. And they don't realize that all this other stuff gets included and leading other human beings. And then you throw in scale or hypergrowth and then you throw in social what feels like social collapse, the collapse of democracy right in the fourth turning language.

00;11;00;04 - 00;11;32;23

Erin Rocchio

And it's like, Holy cow, it's a lot of work. And I really don't think any of us are built or meant to do this alone, which is why I think that the work that we do with teams is becoming more and more central. So I used to be and I still love one on one coaching deeply. Executive coaching is critical, but I become more and more passionate about building healthy team containers more than ever, because executives cannot can not treat this as an individual sport anymore.

00;11;32;26 - 00;11;40;26

Foster Mobley

Could you explain this notion of the spiral path or spiral learning versus loop learning, however you distinguish it?

00;11;40;29 - 00;12;10;20

Erin Rocchio

So Ken Wilber and integral theory really are so complex. And I will just speak to that briefly, which is that, you know, one, we're always learning and we have different levels of consciousness or awareness. And that sometimes part of our move forward includes a he calls it transcend and include. So if we've skipped a level in our development, we have to go back and learn that and include it to transcend.

00;12;10;23 - 00;12;14;00

Erin Rocchio

This is true for individuals, groups, societies.

00;12;14;00 - 00;12;19;07

Foster Mobley

Otherwise we stay stuck or regress or what's the what's the otherwise.

00;12;19;09 - 00;12;41;08

Erin Rocchio

My theory is that we're always developing and we're in the theory of evolution. We're always moving forward. And so this is just the way in which that happens. The other alternative is that you languish and die metaphorically or physically. So you're you're either developing or you stagnate and die. And the death could be spiritual or you're not contributing to society.

00;12;41;08 - 00;13;18;14

Erin Rocchio

Right? It doesn't have to be literal or physical. So transcendent include means I'm going back and I'm making sure that some of these aspects of myself that haven't been looked at or healed or worked through, that I'm I'm addressing them, I'm understanding them. I'm meeting them with compassion. And then I'm including them as I develop. So, for example, if I'm leading a team and I've learned to be an amazing communicator, yet if somebody questions something I'm saying publicly makes me snap like, that's my pattern, I get super reactive.

00;13;18;17 - 00;13;37;28

Erin Rocchio

That's going to really limit my ability to impact a group. A part of transcend and include in this context would be, I've got to go and understand and meet that part of myself with compassion of like, what am I afraid of? And okay, let me tend to that and nurture that and understand it. Therapy, coaching, all kinds of development around it.

00;13;38;00 - 00;13;55;29

Erin Rocchio

Now I can include it and go, okay, there is a part of me that I don't have to reject. There is a part of me that cares that you respect me and that's okay. How do I work with that? So that I can elevate myself and be more intentional? Use your language in my communication instead of reactive. So I don't know.

00;13;55;29 - 00;13;57;12

Erin Rocchio

We're getting a little esoteric.

00;13;57;12 - 00;14;29;14

Foster Mobley

No, I'm glad because, you know, this all, assumes and implies growth and development of leaders to higher levels of awareness, a weakness, consciousness, intention, alignment. And, Wilber is thinking about that. Transcendence is really an important piece for us in this environment requiring greater awareness and a weakness and connection, collaboration and humility. Tell me a story about a leader who's doing it really well.

00;14;29;16 - 00;14;47;20

Erin Rocchio

So there's a couple of leaders that I just point to as inspirations to me, quite frankly. I'll talk about what I haven't talked about before publicly. I'm not going to share her name, but she is a, global tech leader, worked with her now a couple of companies. And I think one of there's two things that she does really well.

00;14;47;20 - 00;15;16;20

Erin Rocchio

So she's naturally wired around building systems and process. She she knows how to execute and build really robust teams to make all the things we're talking about happen in reality, which is important. So that's her superpower. She does that in her sleep. The thing that's been really important to watch is when George Floyd was murdered, this is a white woman, by the way, leading a global talent team.

00;15;16;22 - 00;15;39;19

Erin Rocchio

People team. So when George Floyd was murdered, she was like, oh, my God, I need to go back and do a lot of learning. She went back and got a master's degree in Dei. She has enlisted the support of really incredible, talented people in all the areas. So humility. She's like, I know what I know and I know what I don't know.

00;15;39;21 - 00;16;01;11

Erin Rocchio

And she surrounds herself with really talented, brilliant people that round her out. But the other thing she's done is she's really taken on, and been a crusader around mental health. So this is something that's affected her personally. It's affecting her currently in her family, and she has been incredibly vulnerable and transparent about her own journey with mental health challenges.

00;16;01;17 - 00;16;24;17

Erin Rocchio

She means it when she says that she prioritizes her employees mental health. We've done a ton of work around sustainable performance and burnout, she and I, and she's one of the few executives a global tech executive you can imagine doesn't work weekends, doesn't work evenings, takes off time. Now she's incredibly effective, though when she's working. Most effective person.

00;16;24;20 - 00;16;49;13

Erin Rocchio

But you know, her kids having a mental health challenge. She takes time off and supports her kid. And it creates such a level of humanity and like compassion in her team as they've been weathering the last few years and have been going, they've been holding all of the pain and angst for their whole company. They've needed support. And she's not just providing support, but she's also role modeling.

00;16;49;15 - 00;17;08;19

Erin Rocchio

And that role modeling around this topic in particular of mental health, is so rare that she's been incredibly empowering and inspiring to me. So you talk about authenticity. I mean, this woman is right out front. She doesn't pull any punches. She's so incredibly genuine and her followership is so high.

00;17;08;23 - 00;17;33;12

Foster Mobley

This is obviously an exceptional leader. What are the antecedents? What are the things that enable her to be so humble and vulnerable and open and connect that, like you don't show up in the workplace that day, day one what are the things that have to come first or enable that in your in your estimation or your observation?

00;17;33;14 - 00;18;10;04

Erin Rocchio

I'd say this goes beyond just her. I think in general, I wish it weren't so, but I think the people that role model and embody this the best and this being kind of humble, wise, self-aware, leadership oriented around service and contribute in low ego, have gone through significant hardship. I have yet to meet anybody who hasn't felt that they've gone through some sort of psychic or spiritual death and emerged on the other side and been really powerfully shaped by that, that, experience.

00;18;10;04 - 00;18;30;18

Erin Rocchio

And, kind of walking through the fire and surviving and not surviving out of like will and force, like letting yourself be changed by life that has she's one person I know that has resembles that, but I think that is a broader view of what it takes. That's an enabler.

00;18;30;19 - 00;18;52;21

Foster Mobley

That's very important. I yeah, I'd love to ask a question here and then have you continue on. We do a lot of work with physician leaders for whom they were at the top of their college classes, and they've gone to med school and they go through the trials of fire there, but they've probably never failed, especially as a leader, because they're chosen for their perhaps clinical superiority.

00;18;52;21 - 00;19;02;15

Foster Mobley

Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. How do you deal with somebody who hasn't had the failure? Crucible, that you describe is so important in our development.

00;19;02;18 - 00;19;26;06

Erin Rocchio

And this is where I kind of wide my lens a bit because I, I don't know that I agree that they haven't failed or haven't been through something. I think that they're probably just looking at it through a narrow lens of, I haven't been through anything hard in my career because I've been successful. Then I open it up and I go, tell me about your marriage.

00;19;26;08 - 00;19;50;19

Erin Rocchio

Tell me about your family of origin. Tell me about the journey to get you here. I work with physician leaders too, and they go through a lot. Most of them that I know have something that feels like a soft spot. That's what I tap into and have them instead of exclude that from their leadership conversation, we bring it in.

00;19;50;21 - 00;20;15;25

Erin Rocchio

So that's a source for them of like, okay, I have gone through something. I do have an area where I feel less powerful. I feel helpless even now I can come to my leadership role with more empathy. I don't think empathy is really possible until you've gone through something like that. Right? So not to say I'm like out trying to hunt for pain, but I want to just include the the wholeness of who they are.

00;20;15;27 - 00;20;44;27

Erin Rocchio

Yeah. So this person in particular, sort of my crucible moments in general for people. Another thing that was really helpful for this client in particular, is that having a really supportive boss relationship. So whoever's in power says you can bring all that here and you're safe, your job is secure, and I have your back allowed. Many of the clients that I know that have done this to really bring their whole self in a way that they couldn't before.

00;20;44;29 - 00;21;14;28

Erin Rocchio

So if the boss is not actively, unintentionally in communication about all the things we've described and is able to like maturely hold it, they're not going to feel that psychological safety to them and say, well, let me talk to you about my mental health, because then suddenly their jobs at risk. So that also it's like leaders can embody this when they also have an environment around them with other conscious leaders or other mindful and aware wise leaders who know how to deal with big emotions.

00;21;15;01 - 00;21;31;22

Foster Mobley

Other antecedents. You know, you talked about the word trust. Talked about psychological safety. What are the things that, you know, allow us in the workplace to be ourselves and to and then we'll talk about how that relates to us performing. But what are the other antecedents that you can think of?

00;21;31;24 - 00;21;57;03

Erin Rocchio

I think the third one for me is curiosity. So if you've got safety and you're coming in with a level of kind of beaten up by life that you've, you know, endured and you're resilient and you're broken open is one way I describe it. Right. So you're already open and you're safe to do so. Now, I can be curious about myself and other people in a way that I can really get deep, like I can deeply understand myself.

00;21;57;03 - 00;22;19;16

Erin Rocchio

I can deeply understand you. I can deeply understand our market, the environment. I'm I can explore these ideas. I can explore innovative solutions to things like always be seeking that quest to learn that hunger. Like I'm never satisfied with what I know. I'm always like, there's a question that I love asking people is like, what do I not yet know?

00;22;19;18 - 00;22;40;25

Erin Rocchio

I think that is such a powerful leadership question. I almost want to tattoo it. Where do I not yet know the question? The answer is always like, there's always more we don't know. So to hold that allows me to come in again with humility and openness, to be like, I have so much to learn from you. I would want every leader to come in to their team and their quote unquote followers.

00;22;40;25 - 00;22;53;10

Erin Rocchio

Like, what do I have to learn from you? Versus the old model, which is I have to be the expert to know that sets up everybody for failure, especially the leader, by the way, because then people don't tell them the truth.

00;22;53;12 - 00;23;25;24

Foster Mobley

Once again, takes awareness, consciousness, maturity, self-confidence. You know, for me to be curious about something that's going on in an area that, you know, I'll talk about founder perspective or CEO perspective. I came up through the clinical side or I came up through that side. I know everything I built my built the department. Now I'm going in and I'm asking the the head of that department very open questions, not leading, not judgmental.

00;23;25;26 - 00;23;41;01

Foster Mobley

Tell me about, you know, show me how this works. What do I need to know more of you help me understand your viewpoint of it without trying to necessarily shape it into something I can understand, because I can understand it.

00;23;41;04 - 00;24;02;11

Erin Rocchio

Yeah. I think inquiry in general as a tool is probably one of the most important things all of us as human beings, but especially those of us with power. It's one of the most powerful stances to come in and say, tell me, show me and ask questions. That is so profound. And if we had people do that more, I would change the world, I'm convinced.

00;24;02;11 - 00;24;21;18

Foster Mobley

Well, I think so. I'm convinced with you. So we've been poking around the edges and actually dealing pretty directly with this notion of kind of greater authenticity and genuine relationships and connectedness and more humanity in leadership, and how leaders show up. When you think about authenticity, what does it mean to you?

00;24;21;18 - 00;24;49;29

Erin Rocchio

So I, I'm going to speak from the language that I know well, which is the Enneagram. So in the land of my personality type, authenticity says I'm willing to sacrifice my image. What you think about me for how I actually feel and believe and think. So there's the truth of who I am versus the image I'm managing. And authenticity says I'm willing to give up my image in service of my truth.

00;24;50;01 - 00;24;52;24

Erin Rocchio

And that's really scary for most of us.

00;24;52;28 - 00;25;05;07

Foster Mobley

Or as an Enneagram two, I'm willing to risk connectedness with you in in order to share and be show up as the person or the feelings that I have right now.

00;25;05;11 - 00;25;39;29

Erin Rocchio

When we're really being are on a self like our more essential self, we're depending on our personality type. We're putting something at risk, whether it's certainty or safety or connection or image or belonging, we're putting something at risk. And now often I've seen when we are genuine or authentic, those things actually get stronger. So if I cared about my image before, and I'm actually honest with you, often that has a boost, ironically, in how people perceive me.

00;25;40;03 - 00;26;11;04

Foster Mobley

I love this inclusion because it's very important, you know. What are you willing to risk to truly share what you're thinking, feeling, needing, wanting? Whatever? I am authentic. If I say candid, honest relationships matter and I'm willing to put anything at risk in support of that. You know, like I'm a three and I don't like to have my image challenged or thought lesser of, but I'm feeling very vulnerable right now because I want something.

00;26;11;04 - 00;26;34;00

Foster Mobley

It looks like we have great differences of opinion. I'd rather go home and hide and get under the blankets. We need to hash it out right now. That's really more aligned with my personal values, my personal story, my sense of self, all of that stuff. So being authentic means authentic to something authentic to a true north, authentic to purpose, values.

00;26;34;00 - 00;26;34;25

Foster Mobley

Something like that.

00;26;34;29 - 00;26;39;02

Erin Rocchio

Yeah. So kind of like, the word that I hear and that is like integrity.

00;26;39;04 - 00;27;14;16

Foster Mobley

Yeah. I think integrity in this definition plays in a lot and loving way in what the boundaries of that are. Now, here's what's behind that question in relationships, especially in ones that really matter to me, like leader, follower or family members. When emotions are involved, I process things very slowly. I need my morning pages to sit and kind of slow down, get some breath in, get some insight in, get some time in, get some perspective in, and then I can process and stuff.

00;27;14;18 - 00;27;35;27

Foster Mobley

So the reason I ask you a question about the kind of the edges or boundaries of authenticity, because if I said in the moment we're in a heated conversation, I said stuff in the moment under the guise of, well, I'm just being authentic. No, I'm being triggered. I'm being emotional. I'm being I'm not processed things through. So what's coming out isn't necessarily my truth.

00;27;35;27 - 00;27;50;28

Foster Mobley

It is my hurt or it is my emotion or it is something. So where do we, especially in business, begin to configure lines around or boundaries around this question about authentic, genuine relationships?

00;27;51;01 - 00;28;10;03

Erin Rocchio

One I couldn't agree more with where this question is coming from, because I know there's a huge push toward there's a few things that are really popular in the business world, like grit, and I have a lot of problems with that overall, if you like, if you leave it unbridled radical candor, if that's unbridled. I have a lot of problems with that.

00;28;10;05 - 00;28;35;16

Erin Rocchio

I mean, it's so weaponized I can't even tell you. So so my quick response to you is my genuine response, which is, I'm a huge believer in the pause. It's okay. I prefer for people to be authentic. They have to slow down and have a deep connection to themself. If you're not connected to yourself and you're not regulating yourself, you can't actually be authentic in relationship with me.

00;28;35;18 - 00;28;38;09

Foster Mobley

Okay, say that again because that is freaking brilliant.

00;28;38;11 - 00;29;06;16

Erin Rocchio

If you're not connected to yourself and regulating yourself, you cannot be authentic in your connection with me. You just can't. Because then what's happening is, like you said, what I'm receiving is a whole bunch of projection and reaction. Projection and reaction is all the brain going, I have to survive this moment. Survival is not authenticity.

00;29;06;16 - 00;29;28;13

Foster Mobley

So the reality that I'm experiencing in my brain in those moments is my pulses racing and I'm in fight or flight or I'm in self-protection and I'm saying, what is here? What's so for me in that moment may not necessarily be real and maybe may prevent us from having authentic relationships.

00;29;28;15 - 00;29;49;25

Erin Rocchio

I would say it's it's legitimate and valid in the moment that you're having that reaction. But if we're just spewing out in those moments in an unregulated way, then what we're actually doing is causing harm to our relationships. Part of the premise I'm hearing you work your way into, or I'm working way, my way into, is not just authenticity.

00;29;49;25 - 00;30;15;04

Erin Rocchio

It's authentic relationship. Authentic relationship requires that we're both managing ourselves in those moments of threat. Then when I communicate with you, let's say I've done my morning pages and I've meditated and I've walked out in my garden and now I'm feeling grounded and centered. Only now can I access my values and my real, deeper commitments so that I can go, yeah, what you said really ticked me off.

00;30;15;04 - 00;30;39;16

Erin Rocchio

But that's not the truth of what I really want to say to you right now. What I really want to say to you is, I'm afraid, and that authentic relationship. Right? That shit moves mountains. But if I'm just going on spew, spew, spews for you spew. I'm not effective, I'm creating harm, and I'm creating more of the kind of muck and violence, quite frankly, in my communication.

00;30;39;16 - 00;30;40;15

Erin Rocchio

I don't want that.

00;30;40;18 - 00;31;10;00

Foster Mobley

I just got hit with a big, feeling of sadness because isn't that spewing exactly what our younger generation experienced moment to moment through social media? There's no process, there's no groundedness. There is. It is instantaneous spewing. That means that the relationships I have with others, a relationship they have with themselves, a relationship they have to an issue, is based on that spewing and not reality.

00;31;10;04 - 00;31;34;18

Erin Rocchio

As someone who engages on social media, there's a resonance you can feel with someone who's communicating from a place of regulation and centeredness. This is what I think we need to work on with younger people is not that social media is bad. Tech is not bad inherently, but it's our relationship to it and getting more and more discerning or thoughtful about what we're listening to.

00;31;34;18 - 00;31;55;20

Erin Rocchio

And also like if we notice, you can tell on social media of some you're reading an account and it's just like spew, spew, spew, move on, don't get sucked in. Because then now their dysregulation is now telling your brain, I'm not safe and I'm under threat, and now I'm getting dysregulated and now we're like in a storm together.

00;31;55;20 - 00;31;57;00

Erin Rocchio

And that's nobody any good.

00;31;57;03 - 00;32;22;03

Foster Mobley

I haven't told you this, but that's a rule I've adopted later in life. In fact, very recently that if I hear or read somebody who is disparaging somebody else about a problem or their view of a problem, that person is not a serious actor. And I just dismiss them. And like, you're not interested in solving the problem, you're interested in disparaging, you're interested in power over, you're interested in making your point of view better.

00;32;22;03 - 00;32;41;01

Foster Mobley

I don't have any interest in you. Now, genuinely, if you want to have a different opinion, let's hash it out in the spirit of inquiry, the spirit of discovery, and the spirit of learning, the spirit of openness and humility. Now I'm in, I man, and nobody's going to be more intense and in than I am. I find it's a very narrow, pathway.

00;32;41;04 - 00;32;48;19

Foster Mobley

Not a lot of people can go through that, that piece that you and I can have an honest, legitimate forward in disagreement about something.

00;32;48;22 - 00;33;13;29

Erin Rocchio

And the way I know this is a kind of double click on what you're saying, which I love the way I know, besides the words they're using, my body also tells me if that person is safe or not. So I can tell, okay, they're really here to solve this problem with me. My body feels at ease or they're here to attack and criticize and I don't know, shame.

00;33;14;01 - 00;33;21;21

Erin Rocchio

Oh, my body knows instantly and I'm like, bye bye. I can't be in dialog and be in authentic relationship with you.

00;33;21;24 - 00;33;39;11

Foster Mobley

A question that I always ask everybody that I talk to really, especially in this, this forum. What are you reading? What are you listening to? What are you taking in these days for your learning and development? And do you have any references that you could share with others?

00;33;39;13 - 00;34;03;25

Erin Rocchio

Yeah. So I would say I'm in a particularly acute season of life where my time to read is limited. So what I, I get the most out of quiet time beautifully, honestly. Like I need I need more time to process than I need to take in more input. I get too much input. So like less is more for me right now.

00;34;03;25 - 00;34;23;08

Erin Rocchio

So I can give you like a slew of books. Now I have a lot of unread books that are on my nightstand. The thing that I am finding the most accessible are articles I do really well in written form. There's a ton of great resources that way because then it helps me have. I love frameworks that helps me get my mind around it.

00;34;23;08 - 00;34;46;07

Erin Rocchio

It takes me out of the like stress of social media. That one book, I will say, just feels related to your topic that I loved, and it was hugely instrumental for me in the past couple years, which I don't know if I've shared it with you is The Way of Integrity by Martha Beck. I had like five people recommend it to me and I finally said, okay, fine, it was really great.

00;34;46;09 - 00;34;47;28

Foster Mobley

Well, Aaron, thank you very much.

00;34;48;01 - 00;34;48;19

Erin Rocchio

I love you.

00;34;48;21 - 00;35;10;23

Foster Mobley

I love you too. By a deeper exploration of your own journey, you can find tools, stories and reflection questions in my book Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading, or by following me on Social media. I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as Foster Mobley. Until next time, step wise.

00;35;10;25 - 00;35;40;00

Jana Devan

Thank you for listening to Step Wise. Stepwise is brought to you by Doctor Foster Mobley, edited and promoted by Zettist. You can listen to more episodes wherever you stream podcasts. Find out more at fostermobleymt.com, or follow us on social media at Foster Mobley, that's f-o-s-t-e-r-m-o-b-l-e-y we look forward to having an inspiring conversation with you soon.