Sarabeth Rees on Why Ending Child Trafficking Starts With a Conversation

"It's not going to happen to my niece." That sentence, Sarabeth Rees says, is the most dangerous one we tell ourselves. It feels true, it feels protective, and it is almost always wrong.

Sarabeth is the Executive Director of Everstrong (formerly Stolen Youth), a Seattle nonprofit working to prevent the sexual exploitation and trafficking of children through education, empowerment, and advocacy. Before stepping into this role, she spent more than 20 years in corporate strategy and change management, most recently as a Senior Director at PwC advising Fortune 500 leaders around the world. She's served on the board of the Joyful Heart Foundation and previously chaired the board of Haven.

In this episode, Foster and Sarabeth talk about:

• Why the comfortable assumption that "it doesn't happen here" is the exact narrative that keeps trafficking invisible, regardless of zip code, income, or education
• Why Everstrong is moving away from fear-based messaging and the word "trafficking" itself, in favor of "exploitation," a word more people recognize from their own lives
• A real story about an eight-year-old, a video game chat feature, and the calm, non-punitive conversation that made him feel safe enough to speak up
• Why grooming doesn't discriminate, and what it actually looks like in the ordinary, everyday places kids spend time online
• What made Sarabeth walk away from a high-powered corporate path to take what she calls her dream job, and what it means to actually live the values you claim to hold
• The nonprofit funding myth that drives Sarabeth up a wall (hint: it involves the phrase "eat the scenery") and why underpaying mission-driven people is bad strategy, not virtue
• A leadership parallel Foster pulls from the conversation about power and silence, and why the same dynamic that silences trafficking victims shows up in boardrooms too

Learn more about Sarabeth's work, download free conversation guides for parents and educators, or get involved at everstrong.org.

To find out more, visit our website: Mountain-mule.com

Go to ourwholenessatwork.com to learn more.

Hosted by Foster Mobley
Learn more about Foster at fostermobleymt.com or follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Foster Mobley.
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Produced, Edited, and Promoted by Zettist

Additional support from Amber Jillard Consulting

Music for Season 3 composed and performed by Philip Aaberg. Courtesy of Sweetgrass Music.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It is easy to assume that it's not happening in my neighborhood. It's not going to happen to my niece. It's not going to happen right. That is an easy, safe, but false narrative. I think it's a convenient narrative for many people who want to create their own feeling of safety in themselves and in their families. And it's natural. I understand that. As a result of that narrative, it's easy to other, right? And to say, well, this only happens to them. This doesn't happen in my neighborhood. I went to college or I did X. And in some way, we've crafted a narrative as to why we're safe, why we're immune. And that narrative is not real. It's convenient. It might make us feel good, but it's not real.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Today's guest is Sarah Beth Reese. Sarah Beth is a seasoned strategist and executive leader with more than 20 years of experience guiding organizations through complex, high-stake moments across global environments. Her work spans nonprofit leadership, change management, finance, communications, and large-scale organizational growth. Most recently, Sarah Beth served as a senior director at PWC, Ricewaterhouse Coopers, advising Fortune 500 leaders around the world. Along the way, she's led large teams, managed significant budgets, and built trust through clarity and care. For more than 15 years, Sarah Beth has also been deeply committed to social impact with a focus on preventing sex trafficking and supporting survivors. She serves on the board of the Joyful Heart Foundation and previously chaired the board of Haven. She now steps into a new chapter as executive director of Everstrong, previously the organization Stolen Youth, helping lead the organization into its next phase of growth. A conversation I look forward to exploring in this time with Sarah Beth. Sarah Beth, welcome to Stepwise.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Thank you, Foster. It's so nice to be here.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

What a treat. We have so much to learn from you. And this is a topic that we don't typically cover, whether it's that we don't have the courage to tackle this difficult topic, or as we'll discover in here, it's not safe or comfortable for a lot of people to talk about. So people don't know what a real issue this is and stuff. So I'm really looking forward to learning.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Oh, absolutely. What do you mean you don't talk about trafficking at your dinner table every day?

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

You know, it's okay. Well, we will.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

We will. And you know, we're laughing and we're joking, we're having a light moment, and it's a very, it's a deathly serious issue and affects so many people that I think the average person just doesn't fully appreciate it. So again, thank you for being on willing to help educate us. So tell us about the work you're doing at Everstrong.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Well, I have the honor and privilege of serving as the executive director of a nonprofit called Everstrong based in Seattle. It's a nonprofit, and the mission is to prevent through education, empowerment, and advocacy, the sexual exploitation and trafficking of children. And so we have a deep-rooted belief that prevention is possible. I really believe we are at a moment in time in this country. There's a lot going on, no matter where which way you lead politically. We don't want another thing to be against. Many of us right now are desperate for something to be for, right? We want something that we can stand behind and something that we can get excited about. So at Everstrong, as you can tell by the name, we are working to prevent exploitation through hope, resilience, empowerment, and education. And to make this a topic that we can talk about at the dinner table, not as something that is dark and scary, but as something that every adult who has children in their lives, whether it be your child, your niece, your nephew, if you are a caregiver, whatever the case may be, right, that you have the power to have a conversation that could change somebody's life. And that is rooted in optimism, courage, and collaboration. And so that's what we here at Ever Strong are doing is trying to spread that message and to provide the educational materials for free to anyone interested in learning more and trying to protect young people in their lives.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

That is fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

We I don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

Well, no, that's that's you know, you think about the adjectives you used and about optimism and about resilience. And isn't that foundational to the kind of lives we want to live anyway? Don't we want to be around people like that and create environments for people like that?

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Well, and I think it speaks to foster, you know, I don't know what you think about this, right? But I think it speaks to a larger issue. We live in a mixed economy which requires nonprofits to exist, right? And so if we accept that, what that means is that nonprofits, our goal is to fill the gap between what the government can provide and what the private sector can provide, right? Which is not enough for the people at risk in any in any area. A way that has been employed for the past 20 years to raise money, right, has there's been a few methods that people use. One is fear. And I think that's the tactic that has generally been used. And and it should be. There is a lot of fear around trafficking. I think there's a lot of great work being done in this, in the anti-trafficking movement. That being said, I would like to, and our organization would like to, get away from the fear-based narrative, right? That I think kind of speaks to what you talked about early on, which is what makes this taboo, makes it feel something that is far away, makes it feel like something that that we can't touch with a 10-foot pole. And I think by removing that fear and making it accessible, not to detract from the gravitas of the topic because it is serious, right? But to make it more accessible is something that we needed to do in order to be successful.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

When you say that, it feels like we are kind of at the end of our emotional ropes about dealing with things that cause us to be fearful at home. I'm done. I'm done. I want some. So, Sarah Beth, yes. I love the approach. Through the incredible work you and your organization do, we're helping to create the preventative side of those fear-based responses. Help scale it. Like for the average listener here, how big an issue is this?

SPEAKER_02 6:55

So it's a great question, Foster. And it's it's hard to measure for a variety of reasons.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Is underreported being one of them?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

There are a number of reasons that we can get into if we have time. But what I will say is that it is one of the most profitable industries in the world. I mean, if you think about it, a person, generally speaking, is a non-consumable asset. I mean, if you if you were to buy drugs, for example, right, you you use the drug and you're done, right? But if you if you buy a person for sex, a child, no less, which happens way more than you think, that can be used over and over again. So from a business model perspective and a strategy perspective for making money, it makes a lot of sense. Now that is immoral and grossly unfortunate, and there is a reason for it. Statistics are very hard to come by because A, it's underreported. B, many people who are in the midst of trafficking don't self-identify as victims for a variety of reasons. And so it's really hard to scale. And every time I see a statistic, I think, oh, you know, not to put it down, but I don't know where it came from, I don't know how it was measured. Um, so it's very hard to gauge how big of a problem that this is. That being said, I know that it is a monumental problem because of the estimates in terms of revenue. Like here in Seattle, for example, last time I checked, if you wanted to buy uh someone for an hour for sex, particularly someone that you knew was a young person, right? Maybe a minor, the cost is somewhere between $70 and $90. Think about that on a grand scale of how often this is happening. That's those are huge sums of money. It's an insidious crime, and it's one that we don't talk about or take action enough on. And so we're doing the best we can.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

You know, I know that another piece of this is trafficking for labor purposes. Do you get involved in that part of the equation at Everstrong?

SPEAKER_02 8:54

You know, we at Everstrong, it's a great question. We at Everstrong don't. Um, that is not to say it's not a huge issue. Forced labor is a huge issue, and there is a lot of great work being done on that topic here in the United States and abroad. Um, and I know there are a number of companies who are, uh and I admire them greatly for doing this, who are taking a stand and they are digging into their supply chains to see if forced labor is being used, and thank God they are, because in many cases it they are, and the first thing that we can do, and the best thing that we can do as people in business is to is to try to erase that, is to try to to try to mitigate any risk of forced labor in the supply chain, which is very easier said than done.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Absolutely true. What had you leave a very successful corporate path and job and set of responsibilities and experiences to move into this area in the nonprofit world?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

There's a point at which you have to decide if you're gonna live your values or the values that you claim to espouse. I always wanted to do this work. Um, it took me a long time, I think, to be ready to do this work. And that's not to say that I'm ready now, but I'm probably more ready than I've been. And this opportunity arose through a through a variety of serendipitous series of events, shall we say? And I had the choice, you know, to either take the job, live the values I've claimed to have, um, and or right, uh and take an opportunity that that I claimed that I always wanted and dreamed of. Or or not. And I think for me it was less about what anybody else thought and more about am I gonna do this? You know, is this really if I claim this is who I want to be, then I better do it. This was the dream job, and to even get the opportunity to work at such an extraordinary organization that has the legacy that it has. I mean, how lucky am I? I'd be crazy not to take it. So I got on a plane and I and I came to Seattle. So here I am, and I'm so glad I did. I am living my dream, Foster, and and I recognize the privilege and luck that is inherent in that.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

You know, I'm working on uh book number two right now, and it has a lot to do with wisdom, accepting and honoring the times we live in, not that we love them and nor kind of want to perpetuate them, but a critical part of that is living one's life in accordance with your values, where integrity is not a watchword. Integrity means alignment between what we say is important and how we live our lives and how we show up for that life. And that's such a beautiful example of integrity and the courage that it takes to get there because it's not easy to step off that path.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

I appreciate that, Foster. I don't I don't know. I think integrity is something we all need to work on on a daily basis. You know, a lot of organizations, ours included, right, um have have values, organizational values. And one of ours is integrity, right? And that's not something that you can just state and be done with, right? It's something we are always working on and reviewing. And are we doing a good job? And and there are moments when we don't, and probably more than we would like. And I think that's true for many, you know. But we have to look at those and and see what we can do to correct them or to make course corrections in order to do a better job. And I think that's true for me personally. I think that's true for the organization. I really believe that we're all just trying to do the best we can and we're not perfect. But I think if if you if you take a look at your values and your own personal mission statement on a regular basis, they do evolve, and that's okay. You know, it's easy to find. And I've certainly found for myself moments where I wasn't I wasn't living them. I just wasn't. Right? And and I want to be a person who does. And so I'm I'm working on that. I don't profess to be doing a great job, but I am I am seeking to do better.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

This one goes a little um continues that theme. What have you learned about yourself in the process of making this move into Ever Strong and you know committing yourself to a better alignment with your values?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

What have I learned about myself? I've learned that I've learned that I am not nearly as smart as I think I am. I've learned that this is hard. This is hard for me personally, this is a hard topic, this is hard for the people who deal with it every day. Um, I've learned that it takes courage that I often don't have. I've learned that courage is a moving target, that there are days we have it and there are days we don't, and that's okay. I've learned that there are an inordinate number of people doing amazing work in this space everywhere, more than I even ever had any idea. The work that we do here at Everstrong, we are not doing direct service. And when I say direct service, for people who aren't familiar, that we are not boots on the ground going out and working with survivors day to day. That is a safe place to be. And I and I I am not, I mean, this is this is not to say what we're doing isn't important, but I also need to acknowledge that that is easier than the vast majority of the work that most people in this space are doing. There are people all over this country, all over the world, who are boots on the ground every single day working with people who are in crisis. And they do amazing work. And, you know, when I think about the secondary trauma, the vicarious trauma that people like that deal with, I'm I'm not dealing with that. The courage that that I need is nothing compared to the courage that they need. And so, you know, what I'm learning about myself is more humility every day, how much I don't know, how far I have to go, how often I screw up, fluster. I screw up a lot. And we don't talk about that. I think there's a there's a fear of acknowledging weakness in in the um in the society in which we live. I make mistakes all the time. Some that I really need to make amends for, some that maybe I can get skirt by on. Um, but I do, and I I try to learn from it. I don't always, but I'm trying the best I can. And, you know, my good intentions aren't always enough. And I'm sure there are many flaws that I am not even aware of yet that will come to light um sooner rather than later that I will also need to work on. So it's continually a learning process. And finally, I think what I would add to that is that I am constantly reminded of the inherent privilege I have in being a white woman in this country. And that is true in ways that I see and in ways I don't even appreciate. Um, and I'm trying to learn to see that better and more. And that's a that's a work in progress. I don't always do a good job. Wow. So that's that's some of the things, Foster. We could we could go on.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

I'd love to. That is there's a word for this, Sarah Beth, and it's the nature of this podcast. It is about wisdom. It is about being willing to use pain and discomfort as our best teachers to lean into those moments rather than run around them or avoid them or deny them. Especially true in this time where there is so much tumult around us that it is assaulting our hearts and our souls and our minds. It's a toxic mix. When someone describes their path and their journey as you have with humility, with um clarity, it's very powerful. That's a very powerful lesson and reminder for all of us.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

That's very gracious. I I will never claim to have wisdom. Oh, please, don't think you know, there are people that I admire and respect um who do. And, you know, I think all of us accumulate it as we go, you know, and if there are things that I have to offer that can help someone else, I'm certainly glad you do it. But but I also, you know, every day I get older, the more I realize I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Um, and and that is a that is that is an uncomfortable and humble place to be.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Well, you know, it's funny. I I think it's time we stop treating wisdom as a binary thing, either you have it or you don't, because all of us are accumulating every day as long as we approach our lives with uh kind of clarity about who we are and some humility to recognize when we're on that path and when we're not, and willingness to take a look at those parts of ourselves that are not quite shiny, like as much as we would like them to be, you know? It's it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Or in fact, perhaps defective. Or defective, that is.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Yeah, oh please. What are some things you'd like listeners to understand really better and differently about trafficking that you'd think the general pop that you know the general population doesn't really fully get or appreciate?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I think there's a few things. I think I think one, this happens everywhere, all the time. I mean, I'll speak for myself as a white woman with privilege. It is easy to assume that it's not happening in my neighborhood. It's not going to happen to my niece, it's not going to happen right. That is an easy, safe, but false narrative. I think it's a convenient narrative for many people who want to create their own feeling of safety in themselves and in their families. And it's natural. I understand that. As a result of that narrative, it's easy to other, right? And to say, well, this only happens to them. This doesn't happen in my neighborhood. I went to college or I did X. And in some way, we've crafted a narrative as to why we're safe, why we're immune. And that narrative is not real. It's convenient, it might make us feel good, but it's it's not real. It does not matter how much education you have, it doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter if you live in a nice neighborhood or a not so nice neighborhood. Everyone can be affected by this. And I think the way in which to learn more about that is to better understand what exploitation looks like. Much of what many of us sort of, you know, who are over over 45, shall I say, um, used to think of as maybe prostitution, right? Or people walking the streets. And that exists, that does exist, don't get me wrong. But much of this has moved online. Young people of all ages are online all the time, right? I mean, I was at Safeway last night and I was walking around and I saw two different kids sitting in grocery carts on on an iPad, and these kids were under five. Now, I understand I don't blame the mom. I understand she wants to shop, or the dad for that matter, right? I understand that. That being said, we as adults, we don't necessarily know what the kids are doing online. And and the things that profess to be safe often are not. So video games, for example, right? Video games that kids as young as under five play. Um, even if you turn on parental controls, that's not enough. Most of them still have chat features. People that you don't know can reach out to your child, and it feels innocuous, right? Because they might claim to be another four-year-old or a five-year-old or an eight-year-old or a 12-year-old. And and the people who are who are the evildoers, shall we say, they're in this for the long haul. And we call it grooming.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

I've heard that term a lot and have really not known what to make of it.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Yeah, it's it's called grooming, and it's and it's easy to do. And I'll and I'll give you an example, Foster. I met a woman not long ago who lives in a beautiful, upscale neighborhood. Not that that matters, but I think it does for purposes of this conversation, especially amongst people, people with privilege. I share that because there is an assumption something like trafficking and exploitation won't won't touch them. And she had, God bless her, she was so smart. She had a she's an eight-year-old and she had a conversation with her eight-year-old about video game safety and who she who this who her son chats with and what to do if um you know if somebody reached out that that did that felt weird or felt funny. And she did a great job in saying this in a non-scary, very positive way, and said, Look, I've got you. You know, something come if something comes up, just tell me about it, I'll take care of it. You're not in trouble, it's not your fault. But I've got you. But I I would hope that you'd come tell me. Fast forward a week, the eight-year-old was at a friend's house playing a video game, came home, and happened to mention to mom, I think in the car, which is often a safe place to have these conversations, hey, you know, I was at my friend's house and this this person started messaging us and wanted us to send uh send him pictures of ourselves. And it felt a little weird and we weren't really quite sure what to do, but you told me to tell you if this stuff ever happens, and so I, you know, I want to tell you. Now inside, this woman's thinking, Oh my god. You know, I'm so glad you told me, let me take care of this. But she handled it beautifully. And she said to her son, I'm so glad you told me. Thank you so much. I'll take care of it. And I'm how did you handle it? How did your friend handle it? How would you do it differently next time? I mean, it was a perfect way to handle this. And it's such a great example of how the internet doesn't distinguish between who you are, what color your skin is, how much privilege you have. The predators are out there in trying to long-term ultimately get photos of them, understand where they live, where they go to school, and ultimately some are in it to have a live meetup at some point. Now, this is not to say that the internet is always terrifying and scary, and the goal is not to scare our young people, right? But it is important to have the conversation, right? To to say, hey, what would happen if you or a friend of yours had someone reach out and make you feel uncomfortable? What would you do? What would you say to your friend? Please tell me, right? I'm here to help you. I'm not here to scare you. And I think that's what we at Everstrong are trying to spread, right? Which is everyone who has the role a role in the life of a child can have a conversation like this that is not scary, that is not um fear-inducing and does not suggest that a child will get in trouble. It's that we've got you guys. We're here for you. We support you. We want to make sure you're equipped to protect yourself, that you can show up for your friends. Um but we've got you. You're not going to get in trouble. Just tell us and we'll help you.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

That seems so important. The the internet is so vast. It creates this massive, massive playing field that, you know, maybe didn't well didn't exist 25 years ago, but certainly does today. And I do know there's a lot of fear around these topics about how we have these conversations and how you introduce them to children. That's such a wonderful example of very safe and comforting language from mom to an eight-year-old about that. Hey, I've got you.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Right. We've got you. And that's our job as adults, right? And and I think that there has been a societal and cultural shift where it used to be learning and teaching and parenting, you know, was more was more punitive, right? And and that was just the norm. And I think today we have an opportunity to be a lot more open, honest within reason, and to talk about the tough things in ways that make kids feel safe and not only safe, but encourage them not only to stand up for themselves, but for each other, and to share with a trusted adult in their life what's going on. And that trust building is so important and it doesn't happen overnight. That's what we're learning, and that's what we're encouraging, and we're still getting better at this. I think for your listeners, if they're interested in learning more about this or about seeing what some of these materials look like, if you go to everstrong.org, we have a portal that you just it takes 30 seconds, you could create a login, and there are a multitude of discussion guides and learning guides, some of which are designed for educators to use in school, but there's also a parents guide just to say, how do you have this kind of conversation? Because I think many parents and caregivers, they don't feel educated on this subject, and it scares them. So how are they gonna have a positive, meaningful conversation? Our goal is to provide the tools to enable adults to feel like they have some agency to say, you know what? I'm gonna have a conversation. It's not gonna be scary and I'm not gonna be punitive, but but I am going to help and acknowledge that which I don't know, which is uncomfortable, and let my child or the children in my life know that I've got their backs if they need my help.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

I'm so glad you did that because I was about to go there. Um my wife, Kathy, and I are new supporters of Everstrong. And, you know, as grandparents of 12, 12, 8, and 6, and I don't know how to have any of those conversations with our granddaughters. You know, it's still like, you know, when that stuff comes up and they're at our place, which they're going to be here in a couple of days, actually tomorrow. How do we as human beings on this planet have informed conversations in a way that keeps things, keeps the opening safe for them to have, to be able to have a real conversation with us?

SPEAKER_02 26:27

I think this is a great example of grandparents who care deeply. A couple tips I would share is it the conversation doesn't have to be a big deal. It's not a we need to talk and sit down real quick. You know, it doesn't even it doesn't even need to be over over dinner, like we're gonna have a conversation about this. A great way to do it is in the car. There is something about not looking at one another, right? That makes it easier and less stressful to have a conversation, just to bring it up and say, hey, what what are you enjoying online these days? What are you looking at? What are you finding? Is there anything that kind of makes you feel a little nervous or who are you chatting with? Have you met any people? Right? I mean, it doesn't have to be this very directive, right? It's it's a series of questions, and a little goes a long way in saying, hey, you know what, I don't have all the answers. You don't either, but we're in this together and I'm with you. And if you have any questions or you run into anything that that feels weird, you I am a safe place. You can tell me about it and we'll figure it out together.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

You know, one of the things that I talk to leaders about all the time, the current leadership corporate buzzwords about psychological safety, be the smart ex-business guy that I am. I went on chat this morning. I put in a question about um psychological safety and and and um sex trafficking exploitation, but I would encourage anybody listening to this to do the same thing. What can I learn from this that applies to all aspects of creating psychologically safe spaces where people can be themselves, can be honest, that they don't have to be fearful. This is not a shame-based conversation, but that, and I have the one phrase out of the chat uh answer that I really like power amplifies silence. And so the more power, it does, the more power differential there is, the more likely you are to get silence, whether it's a corporate setting or it's a family or that kind of thing. So the work you're doing to help us recognize the power that we bring into the situation and how difficult that is for those with less power to speak up is so vital. So vital.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

I've learned how much energy the word trafficking has behind it. Please accept this in the spirit in which I say this, right? Which is it it has energy kind of like the word cancer. The word cancer has a lot of energy behind it. It means a lot more than just the six letters that make up the word, right? There are a lot of emotions that go with it and fear and hope. All there's a lot meshed together that gives it a lot of energy. And I think the word trafficking has a lot of energy behind it too. It immediately brings to mind visual images that may or may not be real. Um, it immediately evokes fear and powerlessness. It evokes a lot of different emotions for a lot of different people, which makes it hard, I think, for people to hear it and engage and talk about it in a meaningful way because there's so much energy and people don't feel like they are able to talk about that which they don't know. What I am learning is that I think we will probably have more success talking about this using the word exploitation, because most people have experienced some form of exploitation in their lives in some way, or they know someone who has. That's a lot more accessible of a word because it looks like so many different things. The moment you use the word trafficking, people kind of go, right? Many people will say, Well, I've seen Taken, or I just watched Sound of Freedom, and you think, oh my gosh, these are terrible examples of what this looks like that are not real and reinforced stereotypes that we shouldn't reinforce. But it is what we've got. I mean, we reserve the right to get smarter as we go on this, right? But but I have noticed that that word seems to have a lot of power and a lot of energy, both positive and negative, that can hinder an educational process.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Uh, do you find the same kind of um trigger or power with the words, with the word grooming as trafficking?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Um not as much, actually. Not as much. I think people are curious by the word. I think, you know, when what I find that when I use the word with people who maybe aren't familiar with it, I get a I get the the momentary, do I know what that means in this context, right? And it's it's not it's not a right, it's more of a, oh, interesting. What do you how do you define that? Or what do you mean by that in this context? You know, many people don't know what it means. And and curiosity is a wonderful reaction, right? Because grooming is real, it is powerful, it does exist, it exists all over the place, but we also have the ability to interrupt it if we educate ourselves even for five minutes. It does not take long, right, on what it looks like, what it means, how to recognize it. And um, if we can stop it, we save a lot of pain uh in the world that is unneeded.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

You know, Sarah Beth, you work kind of in this notion of influence every day. What can we learn about how best to influence other people?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

So I don't I don't think of myself as having influence over anyone, right? And and nor nor do I desire to have influence over anyone. What I care about is spreading a message that I think will um could help a lot of young people and make a dent in their experience of and their safety in our world. All I can say is that when I talk about this with people, I and I don't always do a good job, Foster, but what I try is to show up with with in with authenticity, curiosity, and and humility. And if that leads to impact, great. Um sometimes it leads to the auth that's something else. I it it can be I I've talked to people about this who were triggered by the topic, and I got a reaction that I and I sure, you know, I care about this. I think um, you know, I have passion around it. The people I work with have passion around it and authenticity in that passion, which I think it this takes. If that leads to change, wonderful. But I I have no um uh misconceptions or desire to to to manipulate in in any way. You know, I think I can I can show up honestly, um, and sometimes that's me in a good mood, sometimes that's me in a bad mood, and sometimes I do a good job, and sometimes I don't, but I do usually try very hard to show up with authenticity uh and um curiosity, ready to admit what I don't know, which is a lot, um, and and you know, to get smarter as I learn.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

I think that's such a wonderful answer to this question. I really do. Influence requires when you when you put in authenticity and who you are and working toward a higher purpose, it throws at any sense of coercion, any sense of you know, weird power dynamics, um, your humility and curiosity. Um when you show up with an openness to learn, boy, those are some really good tips for influencing other people.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

You know, it's interesting that you use the word coercion. So the actual legal, I think it's legal, let me look it up in the dictionary, but the definition of trafficking, actually, like the way that that if we get formal about the criteria that is used to gauge whether trafficking is occurring or not, right, is that um that another person is using force fraud or coercion to get another person to do something, whether that be forced labor, whether that be sex trafficking. And so coercion is inherent in that, right? And so um, you know, I I think we all have to be really careful. I really need to be careful, uh, and I'm working on this, right? Is to not in the process of trying to prevent this, um, be coercive or exploitative in the process. Yeah. Um and that's a fine line to walk, right? And I'm I'm sure I've made mistakes and I will again, right? But in good faith, I think we have to walk that line. We want to prevent, we want to do good work, but we need to do it without taking advantage of other people or exploiting other people, other people's stories or experiences, claiming to have more knowledge or to be smarter than those who who have lived experience, right? I mean, there's there's a lot to be learned there. But I think as long as we can show up with authenticity and be willing to learn from our invariably in our invariable screw-ups, right? Um we're doing the best we can.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

What have you noticed in terms of your life shifting from the corporate world to the nonprofit world? What similarities do you see? What differences do you see?

SPEAKER_02 35:23

That's a great question. Oh my gosh, there is so many. It's fast-paced, it's a lot of type A people who are accustomed to uh uh say and go and magic happening. Um, right? It's it's easy to measure, and I'm not gonna say easy, I shouldn't say that, that's not fair, but it's easier many times to measure success, uh, to forecast cash flow, to, you know, all the things that we take for granted in in the business world, right? And nonprofits, it's interesting. People make an assumption about, make assumptions about nonprofits and how they run. And and that, you know, it's a lot of people who are, you know, overly idealistic and empathic and or empathetic, shall I say, uh, which is not necessarily the case, who are trying to do good on a shoestring. A friend of mine uh shared with me uh just this past weekend, she's she said, Sarah Beth, do you know what nonprofit means in Latin? And I said, No, definitely not. Um, and she said, It means no progress.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

And I said, Wow, I need to look that up, right? And I thought about it, I said, And so if you think about it now, I have not fact-checked this foster, so I'm just believing it. So we'll have to fact check it, right? But I I believe it, right? And and it does make sense that that a profit would be progress, nonprofit, no progress. And I think it's curious, the standard by which we treat nonprofits is different than we treat for-profits. You know, we have some some arbitrary norms and rules that we apply to nonprofits that are unreasonable. For example, there is a narrative out there that says, well, if a nonprofit is running well, their overhead should be under 15%. Um, okay, find me a for-profit that that can do that. I no, I don't aspire to that, I don't believe in that. Nonprofits are businesses that need to run efficiently and well, and they require that we find the best, smartest people to do the job. And the moral and right thing to do is to pay them well to do it. I should not have to apologize for that. My board should not have to apologize for that, as they tend to say in the West, right? Well, you know, if you if you live in a nice place, which, you know, like Bozeman, for example, or Seattle, right? People and nonprofits can eat the scenery, meaning that that we don't need to pay them. They're lucky enough to live here that, you know, they want to do this work. We don't need to pay them well, they can eat the scenery. That's just wrong. That's just wrong. And the only way that we're gonna make a difference long term in our country and the world, in the areas that require nonprofits, we need good people who are paid well, who stay, who are happy, who are motivated, and that doesn't look like an arbitrary metric, like 15% overhead. And so that's one example of something that that you know many people use to gauge how good a nonprofit is. You know, I'll gladly sit in front of any donor to explain why we will never be under 15%. And I think there is a fundamental assumption, Foster, that many people in the for-profit space make that the people who have elected to go into the nonprofit space have no idea about business, don't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

And therefore they are lesser than.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

And therefore they are lesser than.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

You know, it's interesting. I that's wonderful. Eat the senior. I had not heard that before. And boy, it makes so much sense. Just because one is missional doesn't mean that you are also committed to available poverty, nor should you be. That's right, nor should you be.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

I think, you know, in order for us to do the good that we want to do, um, we need to be paid a fair wage and able to do the good work that we do and to be um treated fairly as a result. And I think many people do. I mean, I have a wonderful board that is that understands that, and I'm so lucky, right? But there are plenty of people in the nonprofit space who are grossly underpaid, who are working their tail ends off, who deserve our admiration and endless respect, and we don't really show it. Um, and I think that's too bad.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

You know, Sarah Beth, this has really helped me understand how pervasive an issue this is. There can be effective efforts to get on the front end of this as opposed to dealing with just the the kind of victim impact, uh, and that all of us can be involved in this. How can we help support you and the work you're doing at Everstrom?

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Oh, thank you, Foster. I think one way is if you're if there are young people in your life that you are willing to have a conversation with, go to our website, create an account, download materials that look interesting to you, and learn a little bit about this problem and try having a conversation. See how it goes. Right? You will make you will make a difference. And I think the single biggest ask that I can that I can ask your listeners and people that that you know and people that I know, right, is spread this, share it with other people. If it's helpful to you, share it. Because the more people who are equipped to have conversations and to have the backs of our young people in this con in this capacity, in this context, the better off we will all be. If you are a person who supports the work and who has the resources to do so and is, you know, you're able to make a donation, we would welcome it because we are looking to grow and scale the work that we're doing. Many people are not in a position to do that, and and I respect that. And so I think the single greatest thing any of us can do is to have these conversations, to not be afraid of these words, to educate ourselves a little bit, and to be a safe person, to be a person who knows enough to have a conversation and and is doing it in a in a kind, courageous, and caring and loving way.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Sarah Beh, thank you for your time, your commitment, your heart, your your uh energy and focus on this very important issue. Um, thanks for the generosity of your time, and um so appreciate you and the work you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Oh, well, I sincerely appreciate the opportunity. It's always good to see you, and I appreciate the conversation. Thank you for your interest and your care about it.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

To honor Sarah Beth and her colleagues at Everstrong and their work, I invite listeners to visit their website at Everstrong.org and educate yourself and your families using the tools they provide. Sign up, learn, have conversations. I'll close with wisdom from Sarah Beth. There's a point in your life when you have to decide you're gonna live your values you espouse. Sarah Beth Reese is a living example of the power that is created from alignment of words and deeds. Life is great, life is shitty, we're here for all of it and for each other. Until next time, leaders, step wise. If this conversation was worth your time, and I hope it was, do one thing for me before you close the app. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It takes 60 seconds. It's how people like you help people like me find this show. And if what we talked about today sparks something in you, good. That's the whole point. There's a book called Leadership Rethinking the True Path to Great Leading. Yes, that's the real title that goes deeper into this territory. It's on my website, fostermobbly.com. Check it out. And then sign up for our email list to be notified when my next book, Honoring, goes into pre-sale in 2027. And if there's one person in your life who needed to hear this episode, send it to them. Not because we need the numbers, because they need the conversation. Set the table, invite cool people, magic happens. I'm Foster Mobley. As always, friends, step wise. Our music for season three is composed and performed by Montana musical legend Philip Auburg, courtesy of Sweetgrass Music. Phil's recent passing was felt by many, including those of us associated with this podcast. If you're not familiar with Phil's Grammy nominated music, do yourself a favor and follow him on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your music. We thank Patty Auburgh and Sweetgrass Music for access to this beautiful piece.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Thank you for listening to Stepwise. Stepwise is produced, edited, and promoted by Zedist with support from Amber Gillard Consulting. Find more episodes and resources at fostermobli.com and follow Foster on social media at fostermobli. We'll see you next time.