Why I Stayed in India: Lockdown, Kindness & Life Between Worlds | MARIE HÉLÈNE - Part 2

In this Part 2 episode of Rooted and Routed, Sabiya chats with Marie Hélène, a French expat and founder of Black Sheep Kollective.  Marie Hèléne shares her journey living in India, Europe, and Corsica, reflecting on cultural adaptation, the power of wellness in corporate life, and bold marketing strategies.

Key Highlights:

• Wellness at Work: How yoga and mindfulness boost creativity and productivity.
• Marketing with Purpose: The importance of storytelling and taking risks in branding.
• Remote Work: Thriving as a brand strategist while working remotely.
• Life in Corsica & India: Balancing life between an isolated island and dynamic cities.
• Black Sheep Kollective: The personal story behind her unique marketing agency.

Tune in for this inspiring conversation!

Rooted and Routed is a global mobility and cross-cultural storytelling podcast hosted by Sabiya Pathan Withoeck. New episodes every week.

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Transcript

Introduction

Marie Helene 0:00

And after a few days, she I could stand there was something off. And she told me I'm going to Dharamshala. Okay. I met this French woman. I'm going with her to Dharamshala, but I don't know what she was telling me. I I felt it didn't feel right.

Speaker 3 0:15

Okay.

Marie Helene 0:16

And she went to Dharamshala, and maybe a week before, a week after, I received a call on my uh cell phone, and it was her mom. And what I didn't know is this girl was bipolar and she had been just released from a mental hospital. Oh boy. And she she was still encountering a lot of issues, and on top of it, she had stopped her treatment. And then she was in the Dharamshala, arrested because she got into some troubles.

Speaker 2 0:48

Wow.

Marie Helene 1:11

New York as well. Yeah, exactly. And it's an horrible place. You know, you go there, you have uh migrants who could not find any shelter anywhere, who became crack addict because they actually literally had no other option. And of course, you know, this is not what France wants to feature, feature. I'm sure most people who went to Paris for the Olympic Games, they have no clue of this place. So we we kind we hide it in a way. Yeah. And also what we must say is that I think like we are less people, so things are easier to handle. India is a massive sixth of the world, you know. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm always surprised when people drive counterway. I think that's really one of the craziest things I've seen in my life. To see these guys on the motorbike driving counterways, that is really crazy. You know, and I'm like, I go to Europe, I I do that, I go to jail.

Sabiya 2:05

Yes, you know, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And here it's it's it's kind of all right, quickly. Who's gonna check? The camera's working, not working.

Marie Helene 2:13

Yeah, so

Marie's Journey into Brand Strategy

Marie Helene 2:15

yeah, so it's uh no, it's really like I I don't I think it shaped me that I'm open to other people, that I'm quicker to adapt, yeah, that I'm more social as well, because you know, if you arrive in a city where you don't know anyone, well, you need to start from scratch, so you need to be social. So that helped me become more social, I would say.

Sabiya 2:34

And the challenges that you face, let's say not just in in India, okay. No, everywhere. I think challenges that you faced in Budapest or in the US, that is not much, but in India it comes with language. Do you think that was hard for you to adapt or be around it?

Marie Helene 2:51

India was easier because for several reasons, so everybody speaks English, more or less.

Speaker 3 2:56

Yeah.

Marie Helene 2:56

Um and I think people are really, most of the time, people were really kind and really curious to get to know someone new. Yeah. When I lived in the Netherlands, it was much more difficult because most of the Dutch people they really wanted to stick to their social groups. Yes. Uh, they don't invite you at home. Where you come from, we invite people at home all the time. Really? Yeah. Corsica. And Corsica, you also have people coming, you know, like on Sunday, just dropping by randomly for some Sunday for a tea, you know, and just showing up. You just show up at people's place and it's okay, it's acceptable.

Sabiya 3:37

I think some people really take time to open up, I feel.

Marie Helene 3:40

Yeah.

Sabiya 3:40

Once you have to know them, you have to come closer to their culture, and then it's okay.

Marie Helene 3:46

Yeah, but in India, you know, I had like this crazy experience, you know, like this Indian family who welcomed us for three months in the house, you know, uh during the lockdown, because we could not get hotel at the beginning. So you were really living with them with them in the house. Like I have was having like this amazing bedroom, you know, and these people were fantastic. Was it because of uh it was COVID time? And at the beginning, uh you could not go to a new hotel, and we were already there because we had rented the house at first, yeah, but they just took us in like family, you know. Uh this is you know, this kind of things in Europe, it's very rare. People do not do that so easily. This is something, you know, to do that for somebody you barely know. And you didn't know them, you were they were part of Yoga Shala? They were renting the house, yeah, and they came from Delhi when the lockdown happened because I didn't want to be in Delhi. And you know, there was no difference, you know. We were family. Uh one night for my birthday, that was very funny. So my birthday was coming, yeah, and everybody was gonna. I was the only uh we only left from the the course there, and they told me we have family coming, so you have to hide in the room because they're afraid of foreigners because of COVID. Okay, that's weird. Yeah, so but it was not that at all, they just didn't have an excuse. So they sent me to my room, and after two hours they called me and they had decorated the entire house. Oh my god, wow! I'm just and they had bought me like this massive cake when it was very hard to find a cake, you know, back then. I can imagine. I mean because everything was shut down, so all the businesses were to organize me this massive cake, and it it was amazing, you know. Wow, yeah, yeah, it was beautiful.

Sabiya 5:35

So that would be like your unforgettable birthday that you ever had, right? Yeah, yeah. And normally people don't have that kind of memory for COVID. Everybody had some, most of them had some really tragic memory or not so great experience, especially for birthdays.

Marie Helene 5:54

And you had the birthdays, amazing family, you know, like um there were also uh also followers, so we were meditating every day, I was teaching them yoga. It was it was an amazing time, actually. Really beautiful time.

Sabiya 6:10

And since then, you have not left India a few weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can imagine that. From from this yoga that is such a big part of your life, do you think that uh it helps in the company culture and employee engagement?

Marie Helene 6:27

It helps a lot because um I I really believe to get the b the most of people, yeah, you need to make them feel good.

Speaker 2 6:36

Yeah.

Marie Helene 6:37

And I really think that a lot of companies are failing that aspect in India and anywhere else. Really? Yes, because uh when ego comes on the table in an organization, when there is one ego to serve, the organization cannot function at its best performance because there is the idea of dominating, of controlling. Right. Uh yoga helps to redraw the ego from the equation. Yeah, but um I think yoga also teaches you dedication, but discipline it can contribute to increase your creativity like any other physical activity, you know, because there is this chemistry that happens when you go for a run, when you go to ski, when you practice yoga. Uh, you know, you're producing a lot of endorphines which are positively affecting you. So in that sense, it is. Um, and but it's mostly mental, it's mostly, you know, the mindset that an organization is going to have. Uh how well do you want your people to feel when they come to work? How proud do you want them to be? Um, it has to go beyond the idea of a coffee machine and uh yeah, I think so. The interiors are like a nice uh recreation space or uh a good uh sofa or lounge spaces, and like even you know, some you will see like some organization in the Netherlands, they were extremely uh advanced for that because 10-15 years ago, uh a lot of companies, a lot of young tech companies were having very solid uh companion culture already. So you will get like a gym membership. Uh, I worked in one company, you could go for a run in the middle of a workday, it was not a problem.

Sabiya 8:23

In the middle of the workday.

Marie Helene 8:24

We had a resting room uh with a chef, and I think it's motivating you because if you feel well treated, if you feel valued, you want to give your best. Right. If you're not well treated, there is a domination that is starting. It's a relationship of dominating who is dominating

Why Marketing Isn't One-Size-Fits-All

Marie Helene 8:42

who and who is trying to escape the domination. So if you tell your people come every day from 9 till 7 p.m., yeah, go to the traffic, I don't care your comfort. Yeah, uh, why should they be intrinsically motivated to do something for you?

Sabiya 8:59

True.

Marie Helene 9:00

And how do they become smart? Right? How do people become smart if they are controlled?

Sabiya 9:08

Um it's a very interesting point, but really uh it's a thought-provoking uh statement that you said that how will they feel motivated? They have to really feel that the company is thinking of them, right? You call them as an asset, but then uh how much are you looking after them? I don't know.

Marie Helene 9:24

Yeah, it's you know, and it's also like paternalist cultures are very toxic for an organization because if the employees are afraid, the boss, and that's something I've seen a lot in India, let's be honest. Yes, I don't think they can deliver, I don't think they are ready to give the maximum potential. Uh, I don't think they are ready to take bold steps, and especially in marketing, you know, you have to be bold. You need to to break some limits, you need to break some convention.

Sabiya 9:53

How have you done something like that with any of your clients?

Marie Helene 9:57

Uh I mean, probably not as uh enough that I'm satisfied. Okay. Yes. Uh but I yeah, I think you know, it's just you need to take risks, for example, in the content you you create. Uh this morning I was looking on Instagram, Stella McCartney is releasing a new campaign. Okay, and the new campaign is called uh It's About Fucking Time. It's about fucking time. Okay, okay. And it's because now in New York, the fashion week from New York is gonna be laser-free. And it's a vegan campaign. Okay, and so you know Stella McCartney, she does a newsletter and things like that. Yeah, yeah. Uh so she's not selling her product, she's selling a story to a community, she's selling a vision. Uh and if you don't have this freedom, this creative freedom, if you don't dare to be bold, you're just going to sell your product. But this is not your product that I'm selling. It's a story you're telling around it. It's a narrative, it's uh the experience, uh, whatever experience it is, whatever community you're targeting. But it doesn't, you know, a lot of brands they just sell the products. You know, you go to their website and you will see all the products, and you're like, yeah, but what is the story? Why should I wear it? What does it make me look like if I buy it? Who am I when I wear this?

Sabiya 11:14

Right. Do you think that there's an Indian brand which recently you've seen, then you feel like, okay, that is doing really well with the messaging. That is really doing well with the engagement, the company culture. Have you seen any of the company? I don't know. I'm I'm just like the messaging, right? Uh the story.

Marie Helene 11:32

I really like Ritu Kumar. .Kumar. Yeah, I really like it because you know it's it can be very modern and it's at the same time, you know, the the culture, the Indian culture is that it's Indian heritage, you feel this Indian elegant, you know. There is really something special. Like if I have a special event in Europe where I don't want to dress like too traditionally, okay. I buy something at Ritu Kumar. Alrighty. Yeah, I really, I really love Ritu Kumar, I really like the approach. Uh, I think Kama Yuvedai is pretty amazing. That's also, yes. Uh it's really a beautiful brand.

Sabiya 12:10

I think like Indian designers are now really pushing their uh the marketing techniques or the the strategy around the storytelling.

Marie Helene 12:19

Yeah, but I think there is a real like a challenge for them. Uh, because I talked with a friend who has a brand, okay, and he explained me the problem in India is that the consumers always want to have sales.

Speaker 3 12:33

Okay.

Marie Helene 12:33

So they really push for this in the communication, which is not really working. It works, but it's not really working so well as in India if you go abroad. If you uh in France, I really feel a lot of consumers will buy something more expensive if there is a story to share, you know.

Speaker 2 12:52

Yeah.

Marie Helene 12:53

And here people want to have things which are affordable or things that make their social status. Yes. So they will buy Louis Vuitton, but they will not buy the small designer who is uncrafted is less often.

Sabiya 13:05

From India, exactly from India, the local.

Marie Helene 13:08

Or even an international one that is not known. Ah, a luxury unknown brand will not be so successful in India because it's leveraged as a social tool as well. Status. Yeah.

Sabiya 13:21

But Ritu Kumar is a nice brand. I like myself really that brand because you have for every occasion you have something. And you will find probably every colour, right? In every uh pattern, right? It's beautiful, yeah. You have a marketing agency, right? Your own agency. Can you speak a little bit about that?

Marie Helene 13:39

So, yeah, of course. So I work with freelancer, so it's like set up as a one-woman show. Okay. Uh, because I uh to be very honest, because I didn't find the perfect person to do it with. So you can that's fine. Okay. Uh and I work with different Indian companies at the moment, and also a British one. And I am helping them create strategies which help them to go abroad, to work abroad, and to really adjust uh the organizational culture to global standards. So most of them I really did like rebranding from scratch. Okay. Some others I'm just doing employer branding, so each project is different. And I've been working since I'm in India, I've been working with a lot of B2B companies, right? Which was not the case before, and I really love it. What is the name of the agency? No, it's a uh Black Sheep Collective, Black Sheep Collective BSK, BSK, BSK Agency, Black Sheep.

Sabiya 14:38

Yeah. Why did you choose the name Black Sheep?

Marie Helene 14:42

Um, it's because of my relationship with my sister. I always felt like she was a good girl and not me. And my dad always told me every time you do something, you always have to do it differently. And oh wow, what a story behind that name.

Sabiya 14:59

Something complicated. Because of your sister, you have a name called Flagship. I'm sure she's gonna watch this. Yes. I hope she knows that. And it is not a surprise.

Marie Helene 15:11

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, it's like I mean, that's that's actually very funny because we so wanted to be different from each other. All right. Uh, that until a few years, like two or three years back, she didn't speak English. She refused to speak English because I studied English and I was always good. So she said I'm gonna speak Italian.

AI, ChatGPT & The Future of Copywriting

Marie Helene 15:30

Um, but now she she realized it's a problem not to speak English, so she started.

Sabiya 15:37

What an interesting relationship that you have. And and she motivated you for the name Black Sheep.

Marie Helene 15:43

Yeah, I mean she I was really thought, like I was thinking I don't want to, I don't want to invent a word, I I want something that looks like me because at the end of the day, it's just me. I work with freelancers, you know, when I need someone for SEO, when I need someone for design. Yeah, but at the end of the day, you know, it's me from morning to evening. Yeah. And I really felt I reconnect with this.

Speaker 2 16:08

Yeah.

Marie Helene 16:09

It is it really is your identity, right? And that's also you know what marketing is about, you know, it's doing I want to be transgressive in my approach. Uh, I want to do it differently. Uh so it was just like it felt right. But there is a story as well behind that. Sorry, but you know, at the moment it came, I was like, yeah, this is not look for anything anymore, you know. Does she know this? I think I told her, yeah, we must have.

Sabiya 16:38

From your personal like siblings. Can we talk a little bit about your personal life? So I know that uh you have a partner who that you met in India, yeah, a Made in India couple, right? Who would have thought that you met your partner and he's from Germany?

Marie Helene 16:58

Yes. I mean, Germany was not a surprise. Okay. I um when I I told my parents and my uh I was with a German partner and they said again. Okay. I mean you they were not German. I had an Austrian and I had a Dutch partner. Yeah, yeah. And so they realized I like this bitch and also well.

Sabiya 17:17

Okay, okay.

Marie Helene 17:18

Yeah.

Sabiya 17:18

And then when you had German, when you met him here, yeah, did you ever start that again India you could really have a future uh with somebody that you will find? Because normally I feel like when people as a single when you come to India for work, it's really hard to I think I was not looking for anything.

Marie Helene 17:41

I was really happy by myself, I was really satisfied. Uh and I think that's why it happened.

Speaker 3 17:48

Like that.

Marie Helene 17:49

Okay. Because I was in, you know, I was really happy, like work was taking the direction I wanted it to take. Uh, I was happy to be in India, I was happy not to be cold in winters. Yeah, yeah. Uh I was happy to have the opportunity to travel. Uh, so I was really in a good place.

Sabiya 18:08

It's like for me as well, like it so it was not planned to come to India for you from Rishikesh to Pune. So when you came to Pune, having a partner spell finding love in Pune was also not really planning it happened.

Marie Helene 18:22

Yeah, exactly. For me as well, it was the same. I was not like I have to, I need to have someone in my life. Yeah, I was really in a very nice space. Space, yeah. So I was open to it in a way, I think, you know.

Sabiya 18:34

Yeah. And the universe made it happen for you.

Marie Helene 18:37

Yeah.

Sabiya 18:39

Last question that I would like to ask is you've spoken about your challenges and the rewards of living abroad, but if there's somebody who's really scared to take that jump, you know, of coming to India for the first time as an exact or starting your business in India, do you think you can advise them something that that will help them?

Marie Helene 19:02

So it's not like uh I had actually a really bad experience on the topic. Uh okay. If you want, I can take it.

Sabiya 19:11

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would love to, yeah, because this helps, right?

Marie Helene 19:14

Yeah.

Sabiya 19:14

We should not always talk about positive things.

Marie Helene 19:17

And when I was in Rishikesh a couple of years back, um a girl from my business school wrote me on Instagram, but I didn't know her. Uh-huh. And she asked me, Do you um I am go I have planned to come to India, and I my parents don't want me to go. They say it's dangerous for me, that I should not go. I have booked a yoga teacher training. What do you think? So I told her this, and the girl came. She arrived in India, and she was in an hostel, so she didn't like it. So I helped her get a new hotel. We met briefly, but I was busy, I was doing my course, I was uh trying to explore, so I was quite busy and I was working at the same time on top of it. And after a few days, she I could stand there was something off. And she told me I'm going to Dharhamshala. Okay. I met this French woman, I'm going with her to Dharamshala, but I don't know what she was telling me. I I felt I didn't feel right.

Speaker 3 20:18

Okay.

Marie Helene 20:19

And she went to Dharamshala, and maybe a week before, a week after, I received a call on my uh cell phone, and it was her mom. And what I didn't know is was this girl was bipolar and she had been just released from a mental hospital. Oh boy. And she she was still encountering a lot of issues, and on top of it, she had stopped her treatment. And then she was in that arrested because she got into some troubles. Wow.

Sabiya 20:52

So, you know, like I really you wanted to really help and motivate somebody to take this step to follow what I did.

Marie Helene 21:00

At that point in her life, coming to India was certainly not the best thing because there are so many it's so intense, you know, visually, like you know, in terms of exterior stimulation, you're getting so much. Uh and she was not ready for that, so she lost the plot. So I think I if someone doesn't feel like going, I will not say you should go and keep it. Yes, I mean you can always try. Yeah, so I I mean I just think you know, you you have to do what what defines you, you have to be aligned with who you are, you know. And if who you are is to live in your hometown forever, why not? There is nothing wrong with that. That's true. And if we you are is to change city every year, that's also okay.

Sabiya 21:49

Yeah. Can you imagine yourself being in your hometown? Uh no.

Marie Helene 21:56

I I you know, I was fantasying it, I was thinking uh Last year, oh I miss Corsica because I didn't go for a long time.

Speaker 3 22:03

Yeah.

Marie Helene 22:04

Uh but when I went to Corsica last year, after three, four years, I think not going. And I was thinking like I af when I left, I was happy. I was it really made me tired. It I I was really I have changed too much. I cannot be here more than two, three weeks.

Sabiya 22:21

That is the case with everybody who ever have lived abroad and go back home. They feel like okay, I'm missing home and they want to be there, and they feel like okay, I'm I'm okay here, but after a few days, you you have that kick of ah, I want to go back to my space.

Marie Helene 22:35

I was really like, no, like I cannot deal with it. And especially Corsica, you know, it's wonderful, but it's very special. Um, it's wonderful, special, it's wonderful, special, not necessarily in the positive way, you know, but uh you know it's an island, yeah. So people tend to be pretty stubborn on their beliefs and on what is right, what should not be right. So people are not very open. Well, I think that's the mindset with every place, isn't it? Or am I not? Island, I think it's amplified. Okay. Because you know, when you're in an island, you have less opening on the world around you.

Speaker 3 23:11

Okay.

Marie Helene 23:12

And so I always felt like when I was there, I said this was really too close. I was really, really happy to get on the plane to live.

Sabiya 23:21

They say like normally an island mentality is more like a laid-back um mentality. Um, they're very laxed, uh, nothing is urgent. Yeah, yeah, nothing is urgent. So we went once to uh the shells, yeah, and uh we went in a restaurant, nice restaurant, you had a nice beach view. And when you ask about okay, can we place the order for that blah blah blah? And they say, Go today, we don't have that. Okay, can we have that or not? And they were just not really thinking as to you are running a restaurant, you need to have these things which is mentioned in the menu, and it's a nice place. And we saw that every so we were there for a couple of days, and weekend or weekdays, your life is just around beach, yeah, right? For us, it's like, oh my god, going on the beach is like okay, we look forward to for the holiday. But the island mentality is such that for them, I think that's everyday life.

Marie Helene 24:13

Oh, yeah, and I think you know, like in a small island, you know, you don't have the cultural offering

Common Branding Mistakes Companies Make

Marie Helene 24:18

you will have uh in in big cities, yeah. And when you don't have this cultural offering, you know, that doesn't open your mind. That's true.

Sabiya 24:26

Uh they have more of the international people coming as part of tourism, yeah, but they don't go anywhere.

Marie Helene 24:33

And you know, like you, for example, if you like, I would say like if you're someone who loves hiking, who could spend like your every weekend hiking in the mountain, running, doing a lot of physical activities, you will be happy in Corsica. But if you're more of a urban type of person, you know, like what you do, yeah.

Sabiya 24:54

Then you will be after some time. But but you think the marketing um the market is really quite different, the marketing sector, there, uh brands, let's say the way the corporates work there. I don't know.

Marie Helene 25:04

So in Corsica, you don't really have a corporate world because there's more hospitality in the city. Yeah, it's hospitality, it's tourism, and you know, like the biggest city, I think it's like 50,000 people. We're only 250,000 people on the island. It's one of the least populated places in Europe. Wow. So most Corsicans they leave the island to work. You have way more Corsicans outside than inside the island. Yeah, so you need to have like a very specific kind of job to be able to work. Or you know, then regular jobs, you know, like at the supermarket, like working in restaurants, like restaurants, but you know, you need to be like a doctor, uh a lawyer, maybe an architect. Yeah, so these kinds of professions can work, but for me, there will not be so many things to do, I think. I could guess get there with my laptop, obviously. You can, right? Yeah, I did it. I in the past I was going like two or three months at summertime, yeah. And uh everybody thought I had no job and I was doing nothing because I was just like bringing my laptop everywhere with me, and they were like, Oh, why aren't you working? Well, you don't go to the office. How can you come here for so long? It's okay, I just do it for me.

Sabiya 26:16

Yeah, so they don't for them as a traditional approach.

Marie Helene 26:19

Parents thought I was unemployed for years, I think.

Sabiya 26:22

Wow.

Marie Helene 26:22

Uh they were always asking me, How do you get money?

Sabiya 26:26

I am I think it's difficult. I think of traditional parents who are thinking that way they cannot see the remote working and then working.

Marie Helene 26:36

I I also think you know, like COVID really helped me a lot with that because I think not only my parents, uh I think people really thought I was not working. People thought I was doing yoga and hanging out. And that is also work, but yeah.

Sabiya 26:52

Well, yeah, I think we covered most of the points. Yeah. And I'm really happy that I got a chance to explore your life through this uh podcast, right? Uh we met quite recently. And I'm sure you forgot that.

Marie Helene 27:09

No, I didn't.

Sabiya 27:11

Okay, okay. So again, we met at uh Bori village. Yes, that all forgot.

Marie Helene 27:17

I'm sorry, I just couldn't remember where it was, but I remembered you. Yeah.

Sabiya 27:21

And I'm glad that we met. Me too. And I'm glad that we did this session where you could talk about your profession. And I'm looking forward to your I think your website is live, so whoever wants to see her work, um, they can really definitely tune in to uh BSK Agency, Black Sheep Agency, right? BSK Agency.

Marie Helene 27:44

Black Sheep Collective, because I have all my freelancers around me. But K is for what? Collective. So I wanted to make it BSK because I thought it looked better. That's nothing to do with numerology, right? No, no, sorry. Yeah, right.

Sabiya 27:57

Yeah, people people do that.

Marie Helene 27:58

I think it sounded better to have BSK over BSC. BSC, yeah.

Sabiya 28:03

BSC, that sounded. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the yeah, the phonetics, right? When you're saying indeed so BSK agency, check her out her website and people can follow as well. Uh, we'll of course mention your Instagram account as well to see your yoga. I obviously because I'm sure people would love to see how you're balancing your corporate job and your yoga practices. But thank you so much for this session. I really, really enjoyed it.

Marie Helene 28:30

Thank you for having me. I even forgot we had a camera. Yeah, there's a lot.

Sabiya 28:36

Thank you. Thank you.