The Expat Feels Home. The Local Feels Foreign. | Dieter Withoeck | #Belgium #India

What happens when the local feels like the outsider, and the foreigner feels at home?

In this episode of Rooted and Routed, Sabiya sits down with Dieter Withoeck, her husband, a Belgian who has lived in India for nearly two decades, and a returning guest from Season 1. Together they unpack one specific tension: the difference between collective and individualist societies, and how the two of them have quietly ended up on opposite sides of it.

Dieter pushes back on the assumption that Belgium has "no family culture," and explores what family and social connection really look like in Europe versus India. From there, the conversation turns to something far less talked about: the difficulty of returning to your own country after years away. Dieter returned to Antwerp after eleven years and felt like a foreigner in it; Sabiya, the local, has felt the reverse. They discuss why "going home" is so much harder than people assume, what reintegration asks of NRIs coming back after a decade or two, and how their children inherit that in-between.

The conversation widens into the fast-changing India that returnees now meet, and the wave of Belgian companies arriving across food, beer, chocolate, agriculture and technology, much of it built and adapted locally rather than simply imported. Along the way: India's developing airports and seaports, shifting tastes, the sensory shock of arriving in India for the first time, and Dieter's own "49% Indian" sense of belonging.

And to close, something lighter, imagining a festival that blends Belgian and Indian traditions, and a shared hope for the day India plays in a football World Cup.

A conversation about belonging, return, and the truth that home isn't a fixed place; it's something you negotiate.

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Rooted and Routed is a global mobility and cross-cultural storytelling podcast hosted by Sabiya Pathan Withoeck. New episodes every week.

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Transcript

Welcome back to Rooted and Routed

Speaker 0:00

Hi, welcome back to Rooted and Routed. My name is Sabiya. Today I have a guest who I know since 16 years. He is from Belgium. He happens to be also my better half. Dieter Withoeck, my husband. Hi, welcome back.

Speaker 1 0:21

Thank you. Thank

Family and social connection: collective vs individualist

Speaker 1 0:22

you.

Speaker 0:22

As we promised that we will have Dieter back on the podcast. I know we we discussed more about the expact life last time, but this is something very specific. Let's get a little bit deeper. When you're talking about social, okay, I'm I want to now then talk about the social um connections. When we speak about social connection like outside world, yeah, how do family and social connections differ from Europe to India? Or what we understand from the previous episodes. So India is more into collective society, and Europe is more the individualistic society. In that relation, how do you see uh the family and social connections?

Speaker 1 1:06

When I arrived here, Indian people thought that that we don't have a family culture in Belgium. They felt like, oh, in Belgium, everybody lives separately. The moment you're you're 20, 25 years old, you leave the family, you don't live with your parents, you live alone, and then they go to homes. In India, the definition of family is quite wide, but many live uh more together, so that's true. I think we don't have that. But it doesn't mean that in Belgium we don't have these family values. Yeah, we we live separately, and and sometimes it's five minutes away, sometimes it's uh it's it's one hour away, or whatever. But we do meet, we do call the family, we do pop in, we still have lots of grandparents taking care of the grandchildren. We have that. I think that was something I I often had to kind of defend that people sometimes telling me, like, yeah, but in Belgium, you don't you don't live together, you're all individualistic.

Personality, weather, and loneliness

Speaker 2:06

That's not is it probably the weather which impacts how you feel sometimes? Like besides the family connection, now when we're talking about the social connection, difficult one.

Speaker 1 2:17

I think I think in summer, of course, people socialize maybe more. I think the the impact of the the colder and darker days is that people prefer to go home early and I'm talking about my personal experience.

Speaker 2:31

Uh I didn't need the whole big social group to enjoy life. Yeah. Uh and even if you have one or two, it makes a huge difference whether it is raining, whether it is cold or w or whether it is summer. It's not linear, I would say. It is really different person to person. It's also your personality. If you're really like a very outgoing person, uh I think it makes a huge difference. And if you are a more like inferior and uh restrict yourself or antisocial, then it it is used to crack that loneliness. And I think whether you put that person in Europe or whether you put them in India, it will

Young Indians, "me time," and changing family life

Speaker 3:10

be the same.

Speaker 1 3:10

Well, I think the characteristics of people are not that different. If if I look at uh the the the work culture, what you have now. You have many young people, let's say just graduated, they start with their with their career. Many of them in Pune don't have their family in Pune. And I think they really enjoy that life. Maybe I'm wrong. That that you see more and more couples, let's say newlyweds, yeah, that if possible would prefer not to live with the parents or with the in-laws. They're used to now living uh alone or living with the friends or or living with the the people that you choose. And it's not about antisocial, but I think just that that having that environment, that me time, that

Travel, perspective, and the urge to move abroad

Speaker 1 4:05

us time.

Speaker 4:05

An interesting perspective. I think of that before. That not to forget, also people are traveling a lot. When they're traveling a lot, they get this perspective with that gain perspective and habit, just the way you have the new, you've adapted to the new cultural habit. These guys also have uh have a habit that they want to live um in India, in their home country, and they don't realize that they have adapted to that.

Speaker 1 4:33

If I see you ask an office how many people would like to live and work abroad, easily more than 50. Um, it's not that all of them want to move out with their full family. I think people, youngsters alone, or let's say uh young, young families with or without kids, think they can easily make the the step of moving abroad. And I have the feeling that many parents in India are are fine with that now. And and lots of lots of Indians, the moment they move out, always have in the back of the mind in X amount of years I will be back. But then the reality is that many of them, after these same X amount of years, are completely settled abroad, and and for them it's more more difficult to come back. So it's yeah, it's it's of course the the the whole traveling has become so easy that the whole connectivity of of countries and different parts of the world is is much more uh much more easy now. Um and and discovering these new places, I think, I think I see some on the one hand Indians are quite traditional, but they're also ready to explore other cultures, other countries with an open mind, and I think that's uh that's a big change compared with 20 years

The expat who feels home, the local who feels foreign

Speaker 1 5:57

ago.

Speaker 5:57

I think here is a very different situation for for the audience. He's an expat, and I am but I have moved with him so I'm living an expat life, and he feels quite home. So this is such a dynamic that um and for us, I think that it's very interesting to speak about the collective and the individual societies in in that way because we both have been to our home countries and still felt outsider. Yeah, he was in Belgium in Antwerp felt like an outsider, but I felt perfect, right? I felt like an ex-back there. I had my friends, I had my way of living a life. Uh, I was on the verge of, of course, starting a career as well. So I was very comfortable, happy there. When we moved to India, here I am, I'm struggling, right? Navigating India, the developed India evolved, which I'm trying to understand how come India has uh evolved and developed so fast. And there you are as an expat who's feeling so at home. I'm an outsider here, and he's yeah. So, yeah, I think this is very interesting for for for for the audience to understand that there's nothing like a fixed, yeah, there's nothing like a fixed rule, right? That's it.

Speaker 1 7:19

No, just looking at me in India, yeah. I'm I'm I'm very clearly an expat. And people, of course, don't see that I'm living here since so long. If I go to office day in, day out, I spilled, I spent the days with hardly expats over there. Of course, you you uh you adapt to that, you speak a bit of the local language, you eat the local food, and that's how it is. So indeed, I think I'm more more local, and you're more uh expat here in and when we went indeed to to to Antwerp, I was 11 years out of the country, it was difficult. Yeah, it was difficult, and then you feel really like an like an like an expat in your own in your own country, and you really have to find your way in all the admin flow and and's quite tough, really tough.

Returning home: the difficulty no one talks about

Speaker 8:08

Do you think there's a need for reintegration? I don't think so. There is structured or a a process already in place, but do you think that it is needed? That one needs to probably, I don't know, need a preparation six months before leaving.

Speaker 1 8:26

I I think it's a very valid point. And and I think is it available? I don't think so, it's available. And people often think you go back to your own country, it's easy, but it's not easy at all. And the fact that other things others are thinking it's easy make it even double because you cannot complain or you cannot say anything because hey, it's your home country, you're back. So why are you complaining? You know the country that well, and I think it's it's it's very very valid point, and and I see other expats also who returned home who really who really struggled. Yeah, struggled with with the way of living, the way of of working, the way of yeah, a lot of the bit of everything. Absolutely.

Reintegration — for returning NRIs and their children

Speaker 9:11

There's a huge number of um NRI, Indians returning from different countries, living abroad for 10 years or maybe two decades, when they come back, they do not identify this is the home country that they were born in. And when now they have to raise a different set of generation, right? They're raising a family, it's it's a different uh ballgame. It's it's really complex. You're fixed in an India which doesn't exist, and your children are growing with uh the Western mindset, and now they have to adapt to India, which they have never grown or lived in. So, yeah, it's a complex one, and I'm sure there should be somebody who's thinking of reintegration.

Speaker 1 9:56

There should be valid, yeah.

Speaker 9:58

I think the government should be part of it, or am I wrong? What do you think? On what level can we bring in the reintegration?

Speaker 1 10:06

If you would ask me, make it make a make a document or a procedure. I don't know how to start it because you can start all the procedures are there, the person knows. Like you come back and you go to the town hall and you register, and then and that should be it. And everything comes from its own, but it's not like I think it's more the mental preparation.

Speaker 10:25

I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 10:26

Everything live in a country, get used to the to the ways of working and and living, and then you go go back to your own your own country. Not saying that everybody has problems with reintegration. There are many who go back and also have absolutely not a problem. But you hear it more and more that people really struggle with with some aspects of life of returning home.

India-Flanders: Belgian companies entering India

Speaker 10:48

What do you have to say about the growing opportunities for India? India, Flanders collaboration. You know, we've we've seen uh recently a lot of companies investing in India, whether it is in beer, I just heard about the hommel bier. Uh I think hommel bier is an old one, right?

Speaker 1 11:10

You said it's an existing beer in Belgium.

Speaker 11:12

Existing, but an old one, right? It's not something like a new one that needs uh visibility. Yeah, so that beer, um Leroy coming in. Yeah, you have um the chocolates, you have the agriculture, agristo, you have the meat industry here. What do you have to think about? How do you feel of having all these companies coming into India? In fact, Callebaut, Callebaut factory also have come to India.

Speaker 1 11:39

See now that that many Belgian companies they really explore also India as as one of the big potential markets because India is growing, developing, and is also accepting these things more and more. Whereas let's say 20 years ago things were were very, let's say, local. India was more like a like a very on its own in many things. Now it has really has developed. Of course, many Indians moving abroad and coming back also see how it is. If you look at chocolate, chocolate factories, we have now big investments over here. You look at Belgium, is also known, for example, you mentioned it for potatoes. Also, these factories come to India, and it's not for growing the potatoes, it's also for preparing the French fries, it's also for for uh vacuum packing. The whole the whole line is completely automated with with uh cutting them, sealing them, vacuum packing. There's even a a cold chain flow for for deep deep frosted uh materials. Uh so these things were were not there in the past. And I think I think these types of food, um beer, and of course everybody knows the the Belgian beer, but the last let's say few years, the the non-alcoholic beers in Belgium have really developed a lot, not only in Belgium, but in Europe. Non-alcoholic beers are there, and whereas 10 years ago that was really the taste was bad. Now they're really they're they're quite good. You have really some very good beers. So also the the the going on the Indian market, not only the the beers, the the standard beers or with alcohol, also non-alcoholic beers, they're really coming up strongly here. Uh, the same is with with, as I said, the food like potatoes, but also like the the meats. Belgian pork is is becoming like a brand. It's like uh I somebody told me, I don't know if it's true or not, that uh from all the imported pork in India, 60% comes from Belgium. Wow. Because in Belgium, lots of lots of markets have have reduced drastically. For example, Russia was there, um, but also other countries. So uh, of course, you still have these these these farms. Um, and it's an easy calculation if you have more than one billion Indians and you take one percent, let's say one percent starts eating pork, then you have say 10 million, which is the size of Belgium. And and just thinking of that, I'm I'm for sure you you have you have um uh more than let's say 50% vegetarian, I don't know the right figure, right? And and many non-vetch people are then only having the fish and and chicken, but there are there are more and more who who will eat beef and pork, all these these um nice outlets, uh the pan quotidien, all these uh bowl. Yeah, 10 years ago, I think no Indian would go there. A grilled sandwich, yeah, cold, uh a salad, uh a simple pasta. I think tastes have really changed a lot. Of course, with having these these products, simple the the croissant from from France, simple products, but now the taste has really developed and people are much more open to accept that. So I think from from the the the Belgian companies that that I know, they all see the huge potential in India. And I'm not even talking about uh the traditional IT, for example. I'm really talking about the physical products where where Belgium and India meet, or Belgian companies uh develop it over here. It's no longer the import and the export, but really making it uh making it localized.

Le Pain Quotidien, returning Indians, and changing tastes

Speaker 15:27

How do you say LPQ?

Speaker 1 15:28

Le pain quotidien, the day the daily bread.

Speaker 15:31

Yeah, yeah. How how do you say it?

Speaker 1 15:33

Le pain quotidien.

Speaker 15:35

Okay. That was one of my favorite places in Antwerp to have breakfast, remember? It's indeed nice. So many Indians have traveled abroad and have lived abroad with that experience. They need something like this to survive in India because they have changed, and probably that is why these companies are coming in supporting these consumers.

Speaker 1 15:56

Many things remain traditional, and many Indians are still very traditional.

Speaker 16:01

They will not eat these things, they will not be the percentage of people who are consuming this.

Speaker 1 16:05

But again, then you have if you have the 1%, it's 10 million people, and I think that's that's really what you have to take into account with with uh developing a business here. Indeed, of course, all these companies will come here and they will they will do their studies, they will have their business cases, whether to export or whether to develop locally. Um, but definitely there's now much more demand for that these to these products, and it's definitely it's help. It helps when people have lived abroad and then coming back and missing these kind of places where you can have a good uh a good coffee or a good uh uh sell uh good salad or whatever. Or maybe to kind of customize to the local taste, because then that becomes more the tailored approach for I think you need to have you need to have that that uh purely 100% the taste from let's say from Belgium. You go, I think many customers would say, No, I need something more more spicy. Not all the products need to be there, but at least something needs to be there, like if yeah, and a bit more, a bit more spicy, like flavors, a bit more flavors, different flavors that you need to have. But uh look at the look at the potato industry. I mean, potatoes are also here in India, and it's there's many, many product and many dishes, it's there.

The Belgian delegation and India's infrastructure

Speaker 17:25

It's a staple food for India as well. You know, like a few months ago you were in Mumbai for for the Belgian delegation, a part of the event, and you were invited as the panel. And in the same event, uh some delegations also visited Bristo in the north, in the north, right? Some in the north, and with Belgian cutting-edge technology introduced in the farming and agriculture part in India. How do you feel? I think you as a Belgian, you must feel proud to see those companies collaborating with Indian companies.

Speaker 1 17:58

It's it's not only them. I think I think for many say local local local factories which are have been set up in the past, let's say, 10 years, um, they use the most modern technologies. And and you really see that that these technologies are are there in India. Okay, some are imported, some are locally. I see many companies now have the newest technologies in India, uh, whether it's imported, whether it's localized, or let's say a mix of mix of both. Um it's perfectly possible. You have the engineers who say understand the the whole uh the whole setup, not an issue. You have um I would say you have on one side the infrastructure, look at the the airports, look at the seaports of of India, they're really developing very fast. Really high, high class, uh modern seaports, airports, you have you have the full uh all the technology available. Um let me be a bit skeptical on the domestic infrastructure there. The the the road networks is is in India still, let's say, way to go. Um but I think the technology is there. So if you have these these factories uh from wherever in the world, you can easily have these technology over here. And and uh if the market is there, and some companies that that you're going today, some of these factories are at the highest level. You don't see any difference whether you're in in Indian or in any other part of the world factory. That's that's a big that's a big difference. That's really that has the past, let's say past generation, 20 years, that has really developed and boomed extremely. That that's a very positive uh development.

Speaker 19:55

How was the experience being part of the delegation? Because a delegation of 150 Belgians coming to India is is it's a massive scale.

Inside the delegation — and "I feel 49% Indian"

Speaker 1 20:05

You you see that everybody is is amazed by India. And and that's remains. I mean everybody always remembers the first time they arrive in India, it's what comes to you, what you see, what you hear, what you smell sometimes. It's like it's it's it's it's everything. And you need to get through this because the first the first moment is can be you can really see it as a as a positive adventure, you can also see it as something negative. But I think everybody will remember that. Me also the first time in India, uh about 20 years ago, the moment we landed and the airport doors opened, I was like, oh my god, what is this? It was Mumbai, it was hot, it was rainy, there was lots of these the the rickshas, there were taxis, it was loud, even at two o'clock in the night. I was like, what is happening here? The next day you drive, you drive from Mumbai to Pune, you're in the in the traffic, and you're like, oh my god. Yeah, yeah. But then you you you get somehow used to that and and you see you see the complete picture. Uh, I think everybody now and in the delegation is amazed by India. And is is not many say they would like to live here like me. That's true. But all of them like to be here and like to come back, that's for sure. And they like the the let's say the go forward mentality of of of Indians, the the business minded. Okay, really that's something that you can you can motivate a complete team and and all these these companies, of course, they're here to for work, for business. They want to start a business, they want to further develop a business, grow the business. That's something that, of course, you cannot do. only with with foreigners you need to have local people but they're all very positive about the local people how their enthusiasm their energy to get the things to get the things that's that's for me something that uh was really amazed to see and of course happy because I always feel as an Indian you know the 49% Indian that's how I how I feel um and I'm always proud to tell the things and I'm I'm always quite honest. If I tell the things how how I see it here I'm I'm like I try to be to give an honest uh gonna an honest answer to uh to everybody and and but people are just just amazed and and we the future now of of India and we know in today's world how difficult and unpredictable the the the trade is with the big countries let's say us China India but yeah India is is is one of the new or is already the global powers

Imagining a festival: Sinterklaas meets Diwali

Speaker 1 23:00

if they keep keep developing like it is now that's really not looking very bright for a future for India one interesting fun thing to talk about if you could combine one tradition from Belgium and then from India into one single festival what would that festival look like I don't know having beer but no a tradition where you can blend you can maybe create if you can create your own that's a very that's a very difficult one. If I'm just something typical Belgian uh we have we have Sinterklaas which is kind of like Santa Claus but not not the same um I think that's that's for me a very typical Belgian one. So only in Belgium and in Holland you you have the the way we celebrate it that uh kids uh especially the kids still because you you believe in Sinterklaas till say the age of six you're two when you're three years old you don't maybe difficult to understand but then you have that age of when you're four five six years old when you believe that you have to be good because Sinterklaas is looking at you and if you're if you have behaved well then you get you get sweets like chocolate you get you get toys that you have been been asked that call it naivety of the kids but the whole the whole atmosphere I like a lot. Maybe you can explain to the audience how how is Sinterklaas celebrated maybe it's not how is Sinterklaas celebrated I mean it's very difficult to uh no I know it's very to to to try to imagine you have you have Santa Claus Santa Claus comes uh also overnight and then uh gives you the gifts the gifts we have the same but for us it's like uh Sinterklaas which is portrayed as an old man uh who has some some some helpers and they go with with all of them they go from roof to roof so there again since Santa Claus is a bit the same but the the the kids the kids have been making lists and what they want yeah the the the months before they have told it to the parents and then the night that center class comes normally they put their shoe yeah why it's serious they put a shoe at the fireplace and then they put some something for center class something from the helpers and something for the horse so typically you give like like a uh like a can of beer you give a carrot and some sugar that that's a typical thing that you give as a little boy or girl you put it there you say and you write a letter of course the night the parents take away everything then they put the sweets and whatever they have bought and the next morning the kid is coming and looking oh my god and then it's yeah it gives a really it's a it's a fun time and and that's a very strong tradition I hope it's still it can stay for long if this could happen somewhere here that this kind of culture could be could be mixed that if you do something well and then somebody is looking at you um I don't know which which festival you could combining that with the you can can say christmas diwali it's a darker period in the year but you have all the lights I think that's already a bit a bit similar uh you have Easter Easter is also something that we celebrate with with uh uh the the Easter chocolate and then then we typically hide the Easter chocolate in in in the house or in the garden and the kids have to do the the egg hunt the chocolate hunt um but with the tradition of Sinterklaas when we explain as Belgians because now uh 6th of December it's it's Sinterklaas everybody wants to celebrate for the ones who will see this I think they will see it much later but then yes uh we are still we're not yet in December correct so if something something can be combined like that maybe maybe it would be nice divali and Sinterklaas yeah for example why not that's a very a bright looking combination both have red and gold I think in common I think so maybe I'm wrong divali is also quite colourful yeah true but um if you see like look in India the last 10 15 years all of a sudden we have we have Halloween we have Valentine we have even Christmas is now you see lots of Christmas trees so I think there might be a place for center class also let's lobby for that that'll be nice that'll be nice yeah and boost uh the the chocolate industry chocolate industry during Diwali yeah so instead of sweets in the Indian sweets we promote Belgian chocolate and that in fact is good and for the parents a good beer alcoholic or non-alcoholic yeah we can keep that right and because we also have now more and more people not having alcohol so alcohol free market is also growing it's also happening more and more in Belgium that I see in supermarkets but not a lot in India. Absolutely so let's combine it perfectly let's blend then chocolate and diwali or start writing the business case let's

Football, Belgium, and India

Speaker 1 28:36

define it.

Speaker 28:36

Yeah yeah and let's see who can maybe uh appreciate and accept this uh business concept football just like everything is changing in India more and more people are moving from not moving but are also showing huge interest in football there are more and more football academies here our son is going to one how do you see at this particular sports which is growing and uh I'm sure there are some players that you're aware of from India.

Speaker 1 29:06

I think of course I'm quite let's say colored to answer this question because I have a big passion for football. Yep so if you ask me to compare football with any other sports I will always say football is the best why is in my eyes football the best or a very good sport first of all I like team sports uh secondly it's it's it's outdoor and third you can play it 1 12 months a year because you can play it in in the rain in the sun in winter time it's you can you can always you can always play it so for that reason I like it and I like to see it also more and more in in India we know that popular sports in India let's say the top one is is cricket but I I like to see how how um you have more and more football pitches here more and more football academies for the for the young kids and then also for the uh say the boys or the girls because it's it's not only for yeah boys yeah for boys you see also the the girls playing football um so I'm always happy to see people playing playing a sport and and I think when I come from from from Belgium of course many start a conversation like ah and then they name a a few famous Belgian players yeah I think Belgium was say 10 years ago maybe top in the world five to ten years ago we had we had the best players in the world now it's reducing a bit because some of them have have uh retired but there was a time when you come I say I'm from Belgium then they named immediately okay in Chelsea you have that and in Man City you have him and and so on and so and I think I think the football culture has really has grown uh I mean it's it's a it's a it's a great growth to see growth to see in India it has really developed well and and you see also the infrastructure now you see these pitches okay they're turf because the grass is not always that easy to maintain uh but you have these pitches and they're always occupied they're always full the moment you go there you see adults you see kids playing whether it's eight in the morning or eight in the evening uh so I like it and of course I am uh I grew up with football for me football is is a big it's a big passion so I'm very happy to see that and any football player from India that you know I not many I know I know what's his name uh Chettri Chetri yeah Sunil Chhetri he's the the top scorer all time um and I really hope that soon India qualifies for a big tournament like the World Cup you always see every world every World Cup you see a few countries who come for the for the first time I think now if I remember well in in 26 we will have countries like I think uh Uzbekistan who qualified yep um and I think um there are a few other very small countries that have qualified I'm like India where it's 1.4 billion people when when can we support when when yeah can we together have the Indian flag and the Belgian flag oh that's supporting supporting the the the same team I was thinking of the collaboration but why not having a Belgian coach for the Indian team absolutely maybe let's start with that and then see where we head but yeah of course it will be a dream to kind of be in the same field supporting each other's team uh team we had it for hockey a few years ago in the Olympics where we India played Belgium Belgium won.

Closing reflections

Speaker 33:07

Ah sorry it happens it's uh sports well thank you so much for your time Dieter for coming back for the part two literally season three and uh I'm sure for the ones who are watching this I've got the insight of the individual and the collective societies that we come from and whole the the whole amalgamation of amalgamation literally it is because it has switched you know you are acting more as uh coming from collective society and I'm acting the one coming from individualistic society so this I think for me is the main core theme for our conversation today. So thank you so much for that and um all the best and I'll see you around at home.

Speaker 1 33:56

Yes.

Speaker 33:57

Thank you. Thanks a lot if today's conversation made you feel understood informed or simply connected to the global journey, we would love for you to stay with us. Please subscribe and follow the channel. Your support truly helps us bring global voices to this space. So thank you.