Class-Act Coaching: A Podcast for Teachers and Instructional Coaches

Mastering Student Engagement Through Dynamic Conversations

• SREB • Season 1 • Episode 9

Share episode

Send us a text

Discover how to transform silence into vibrant conversations in your classroom with insights from our latest discussion. Join me, Ashley Shaw, alongside Dan Rock, as we unravel the secrets of fostering engaging student discourse with the help of Keisha King, a distinguished math instructional coach. Learn how to create a safe environment for students to express their thoughts and build confidence in speaking up. Keisha introduces her five practices for orchestrating productive mathematics discussions, offering a powerful framework that can enhance critical thinking and student interaction.

Through practical strategies like the jigsaw method, four corners activity and impactful sentence starters, we explore innovative ways to boost student participation and engagement. Our episode is packed with actionable advice and resources, including handouts on promoting meaningful discourse and the Think-Pair-Share strategy. Equip yourself with the tools to transform your classroom into a hub of dynamic discussions, where every student feels heard and valued. Tune in for a rich exploration of how to make your teaching environment more interactive and participatory.

Download our handouts for this episode:

1. 5 Practices for Orchestrating Discussions
2. Strategies to Promote Meaningful Student Discourse
3. Think-Pair-Share Strategy

The Southern Regional Education Board is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that works with states and schools to improve education at every level, from early childhood through doctoral education and the workforce.


Follow Us on Social:


Speaker 1:

Welcome back. I'm Ashley Shaw. I'll be your host today, and with me, as usual, is Dan Rock, my co-host. Hi Dan, how are you?

Speaker 2:

I am wonderful, Ashley. I hope you're well.

Speaker 1:

I am, and I am very ready for you to help me with my issue for today.

Speaker 2:

What is something that you're really trying to focus on and improve this week?

Speaker 1:

So in these episodes we have these great conversations and I want to have the same type of conversations with my students. The problem is they just sit there and stare at me and I talk and talk, and talk, and talk and talk and talk and then they don't participate. We had a lesson a while ago on asking great questions and that has been helpful, but I want to kind of focus a little bit on ways to bring them into the discussion in general, not just through great questions. Do you have anybody that can help me create discourse in my class?

Speaker 2:

So to create discourse, you need to teach students how to have an academic conversation, and a person who I know has done that really well and has some real insights into simple but effective ways is Keisha King. She's one of our fantastic math instructional coaches, but the work that she does will apply to everybody. I think she'll really help you a lot.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, I'm looking forward to working with her. Thank you, no problem.

Speaker 2:

I'd like to hear what she has to say.

Speaker 1:

All right. Well, I'll talk to you after it's over and you can tell me how you think it went.

Speaker 3:

All right.

Speaker 1:

Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming here. How are you? I'm great. How are you?

Speaker 3:

I am doing pretty well today, so thank you again for coming Before. Bachelor's is in math and computer science. My master's is in math education, so my experience has been in mostly middle and high school education, but I have supported elementary.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, that sounds great. I talked to Dan about what I was looking for this week and I told him and I'm sure you've had this experience too. I'm sure every teacher out there has had this experience I told him that I have really been struggling getting my students to talk in class. We have these class discussions and I want them to be so great and helpful to them, and then they just sit there and stare at me. Do you have any tips for us on how to get students to join the discourse, to talk when we have class discussion time?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I'm going to start by asking you a question what are you currently doing with your students to try to promote the conversation?

Speaker 1:

So I tend to I hate to admit this, but I tend to I come in with what I think is going to be this great discussion and some questions and then, when they don't respond, I do one of two things. One is I rely on the few students in class who do talk and it ends up being a discussion between like three students in the class. Or I do something that we talked about not doing in the lesson with Jason Adair about when he talked about asking great questions, where I don't wait for them to answer and join the discussion. I just I'm like oh, they don't know the answer, so let me just tell them, and then I just discuss the whole thing myself and it becomes a lecture, not a discussion. So those are my two methods. They work very well. Gotcha, gotcha.

Speaker 3:

Well, wait time is definitely critical for student discourse, because when we're doing student discourse we want to promote critical thinking, so we have to give students time and space to think about whatever we're asking. So we can't get nervous for the silence because we want them to have that silence in big time.

Speaker 3:

So we want them to have time to think about the problem, and discourse promotes them to internalize whatever they're learning. So to do that, we want them to be able to look at the problem, be able to explain and defend their reason right or wrong and we want to encourage them to share their thoughts and we need to make it a safe environment, because a lot of kids are afraid to speak because they don't want to be wrong.

Speaker 3:

So we need to make it a space where it don't appear to be wrong because that's how you grow so to do that some of the things so I noticed we have. I know I'm math, you know my background is in math, so we're giving math example which could possibly be used in multiple subjects. So the five factors of orchestrated and math-managed discourse by Smith and Smith is something we use in math so the critical piece of components that are anticipating, monitoring, selecting, sequencing and connecting.

Speaker 3:

So those good five things we use to plan are essentially as a roadmap to help you engage students right, so to get them talking. So what that takes is you planning up front, like anticipating this.

Speaker 2:

Whatever my problem is, I'm going to work that out myself and anticipate the student solutions and misconceptions they may have.

Speaker 3:

So with that information you can be a developed question, so you can support students as we go into the next phase, which is monitoring while they work the next phase, which is monitoring while they work.

Speaker 3:

So, as the students are working on the power task, you're walking around as a teacher seeing what they're doing. If you have a student that's stuck, you probably already identified that in your anticipation stage where this may be a possible mistake. So you would ask probing questions to move them forward in their thinking and not necessarily answering their question or telling them what they do. So ask them questions to move them along. The next one is selecting, which means after we've gone through them, working through that process or through the problem and coming up with whatever solutions they have, then, as the teacher's walking around and monitoring, you're tracking those adequate solutions. Even if it's almost slightly wrong, you can build upon it if you have students to build upon. But you're selecting those students per share to build up to the learning target.

Speaker 3:

And the sequencing is a part of that. We want to sequence the work in the way that we may take the simpler solutions to the more complex so that the students can make the connections to the learning target and that take you to connecting. So it's five steps. It's kind of seamless but it may be challenging getting started. So I like I tend to focus on the anticipated monitoring with my teachers because most of them, I have a lot of strategies to engage the students, but we hadn't necessarily thought through or work through the problem. So when we get our own room because the kids are stuck, I haven't thought through that.

Speaker 1:

So that makes sense.

Speaker 3:

That's what I have. How do you feel about that?

Speaker 1:

That sounds good. It makes sense. I definitely would like to know more about how to do these, but I'm sure that's what you're going to tell me, so I'm not concerned.

Speaker 3:

So, yes, engagement, I mean you can use multiple strategies. That's just one. We use discourse and map. However, you can incorporate those, some of those, a lot of those components, or if not all of those components in language arts, depending on what your topic is. You can give them a piece of reading, you can anticipate what you want, but if you're doing things, what are the things they might come up with, what are some of the incorrect things they might come up with? And just see what they're doing as you're monitoring. So you can use these five practices in language arts as well. There are also other strategies, like think pair share. Right, think pair share is one of the key. You give them a problem, a solution. So think pair share, share. They give you the strategy, but we don't necessarily talk about how to plan for it, which is why I like me couple of five, the anticipated piece of the strategies.

Speaker 1:

Gabby Robertson talked about how to plan and then last week, coincidentally, we had a lesson with Marty Shigaric and he talked about thinkare. So it sounds like if you really want to get good at what we're talking about today, then you can get more in-depth on a couple of these topics by going to Debbie Robertson's planning episode and Marty Shigaric's think-pair-share episode. Great that we're seeing connections here to our past lessons. Sorry to interrupt to say that, but I just wanted to give a little plug.

Speaker 3:

So yeah, I think it's just essential and key to give the students space to collaborate. I think peer share is a structured way to say work independently, be in share, so it's a structured way to do that. You know what you're looking for the planning piece again for student engagement. I think a lot of teachers miss that piece because we have to be very strategic about what we want, because one we have an end goal that we want to get to. So we want to make sure we're getting specific responses from our students that's going to get us to the end goal. So we're looking for those key responses which require us to develop as teachers, to develop questions. That's going to get us there. So that's the critical part. So having those open-ended questions that's going to promote thinking and advance us to the learning target at the end.

Speaker 1:

And I think something that you said there that really stuck out to me is structure, because I can't speak for everybody, obviously, but I know for me I think of some things as structured and some things I don't necessarily think of as structured. So the actual lesson we do, that's something I put a lot of planning in and it's structured, it's an actual activity, but the discussion is like free time, so I don't structure that and that's probably why it doesn't go as well as I want it to. So I like that. You're now telling me well, structure that too, plan for that. That's how you're going to get it to be what you want it to be, by planning for it and structuring it. So I think that's really great advice.

Speaker 3:

And some other strategies you can use. Think purchase is one that we use globally a lot. Have you ever heard of jigsaw?

Speaker 1:

I have heard of it, but I don't ever really use it, so I'm not exactly sure that I know exactly how it works. So I'd love to hear more about it, for example, if we were doing a jigsaw.

Speaker 3:

So we have a concept and then we have multiple types of problems in that concept. We'll assign those problems to separate groups and let each group become the expert on that problem type. So that means once they've finished solving work and they're doing it in a group and everybody has come to a consensus on what the process they're going to use is and how to get to that solution, then they then share that out to the whole group.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So for math that might be like one group works on subtraction and one works on a. You see my math level, that I'm talking about subtraction here, but so they're doing different things and then teaching. So in english it might be we read a book and one group's talking about character and one group's talking about setting and one's talking about theme, right, and then we're putting them together with the whole class. Is that from that way?

Speaker 3:

Or it can be like for math, like we do a learning target. We may like say, for instance, solve an equation, right, I may have a one step equation, I may have a two step equation. I may have equation where there's distribution, distributing property in there, or I may have a problem with fractions. I can break those problem types up and give each type to a group and let them explain how they work through that. So I'm still solving equations, I'm still on the same learning target, but I've scaffolded that up to the level I need it to be and allowing the students to be the expert at their level in space so they can explain and then we can share that out with the class okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 3:

So, and then I have a few others that you can look at like sentence starters is great. So if kids don't like to talk, that's because they probably don't know what to say or how to say it. So maybe giving them sentence starters that may help them to start a conversation. Like if somebody shares something you agree and then you tell why. Or I like to add to what so-and-so said so giving them ways to start or add to the conversation will help. So sentence starters is another way.

Speaker 1:

I like that a lot. That's something in English that we do with essays sometimes that they have essay starters and so it's kind of like almost when they're first learning how to write an essay, kind of fill in the blanks almost of things that they would say in the essay. That helps them learn to focus it and I've never really thought about it, but that's really great to do. They need to learn. I always tell them great writing is like talking. It should be as natural as talking. But it makes sense then that if they're struggling talking about an issue, do the same thing you would do with writing and give them some sentence starters. So I really like that one.

Speaker 3:

And another one that creates a safe space for students is four corners. I like four corners because you have a problem and you put your four solutions up and four possible solutions and the kids get to go to their corner so they don't have to be stand alone and talk about it. As they collaborate as a group and they pick their spokesperson, it's probably going to be somebody that's comfortable speaking, but they've collaborated in that group and talked about why they chose that answer. So, with everybody sharing that now we're collaborating, connecting our thoughts and seeing, you know how did we get to that end goal. So that's a I think that's a safe one to help students talk. One they're moving, one they're moving and they're talking amongst the group before they share their answer out loud. So I think that builds confidence in someone who's having a conversation and making them more comfortable with dialogue.

Speaker 1:

And I know that's something when I've been at workshops and things like that that it's very common in teaching things. So I've done it more than facilitated it, but I know that it really does First of all, hearing the conversation in your group with everybody that already agrees with you, it's a lot easier to talk about it because you know everybody has the same kind of opinion as you. But then, once you've already done that little mini discussion with your group, when you come back to the class hearing other perspectives but also you feel more comfortable defending your position because you know you have a team of people agreeing with you, so I think that's great.

Speaker 1:

I like that you called that the safe space, because I can understand that really well.

Speaker 3:

So any questions on any of these things that I've shared. Was there anyone that stick out to you that you might want to try?

Speaker 1:

Definitely I want to try sentence starters. I think that that's a great way to think about it, just like an essay, which is what I'm trying to get them to connect anyway for my class. But one thing I will ask is do you have examples of any of these that we can share in the notes, so that they can kind of see what they might look like?

Speaker 3:

Yes, I do. There's a handout titled Strategies to Promote Meaningful Student Discourse. In this handout, you will find all the strategies discussed today, along with a brief description how to implement and why each of the strategies work. There's a second handout titled Think Pair Share Strategy. In this handout, the five practices have been embedded in a think-pair-share to include a planning phase, as well as each phase of the think-pair-share being broken out to student and teacher action for facilitation.

Speaker 1:

Okay, good, Then that'll be in the show notes and so you can find it there, everybody listening. So let me just as a reminder, think-pair, Share, Jigsaw, Senate Starters, Four Corners are the activities we went over today and they go to the five discussion facilitator steps that you talked with us about today, specifically focusing on anticipation and monitoring. So I think that you did a really great job explaining and I don't have any questions and hopefully, if anybody out there has some questions, they'll let us know on social media and we can get them some answers In the meantime. That bell you just heard means we're almost out of time. Do you have some homework for us?

Speaker 3:

Of course, I have homework for you. So let's do something in the anticipating phase of the five practices and focus on the strategy you selected since the starters. So for the anticipating, I want you to select a learning target, identify activity to go with that learning target. You're to work the activity and identify possible answers or solutions and misconceptions. Then, for the Senate starters, I want you to identify two to three Senate starters for students to use to collaborate within their groups.

Speaker 1:

All right, that sounds perfect. It also kind of goes with last week's lesson. One of the things that we were told to look for is the OMGs is what Marty called it.

Speaker 3:

The.

Speaker 1:

OMGs the opportunities, misconnections and gaps that students might have. So it's perfect continuation of that lesson, so make sure you go listen to that one too. All right, thank you so much for being here. It's been great and I can't wait to try some of these activities in my class Awesome, thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 3:

All right, you do say All right, bye.

Speaker 2:

Well, that was extremely helpful. I definitely have some ideas there that I want to take back when I work with students. Have some ideas there that I want to take back when I work with students. I love the way she talked about focusing on anticipating what students are going to need to know. I mean, you've talked about that before doing your own assignments. Was there something that really stood out to you as you were listening to her?

Speaker 1:

Well, and I know I pointed this out to her too but I really do like the sentence starters. Definitely. I can see that being helpful in any class, but definitely in an ELA class, I think, getting them ready for sentence starters for talking and for writing. So I thought that was perfect.

Speaker 2:

And working with English language learners. They can be very helpful.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I can definitely see that be very helpful.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I can definitely see that. So from a coaching perspective, it was very interesting because she did a few things that sort of piqued my coaching eye. One thing was that she said she gave you a list of steps for having a discussion anticipating, monitoring, selecting, sequencing and connecting. But did you notice how she says when I start with teachers, I really focus on anticipating and monitoring? And I guess you know we have sometimes these strategies and they can sometimes be overwhelming if there's a lot of them, and really focusing on getting really good on one aspect first and then moving on can be very helpful. So that was one thing I wanted to highlight. That actually doesn't expect everyone to do the whole thing perfectly, but let's, you know, let's chunk it. Just like we chunk for kids, let's chunk for teachers.

Speaker 1:

Yes, I thought that was really useful, that, because it would have been a lot if we had covered all five of those sections and I don't know that I would have gotten as much out of it. So I like that. She said hey, there are five points to what I'm talking about, but let's just focus on the first two for today. So I thought that was very helpful to me as a teacher.

Speaker 2:

The second thing she did is, you know, it's like, whatever the strategy was she was talking about, she kept saying how we're going to connect this to the learning target, to the learning target and, as a coach, we sometimes want teachers to use a strategy, but we can't just use a strategy for the sake of using a strategy. It has to be something that aligns with what the kids need to learn. And so when she's coaching teachers, you can see she's always focusing on how will this thing that we're doing help them learn that learning target not just are you doing the thing, and I just think that's an important aspect to focus on is always connecting it to the learning target, whatever the strategy is.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yes, I can see that being very useful.

Speaker 2:

And one last thing I want to point out. At the end she gave you a menu of strategies. She talked about think per se or jigsare, jigsaw, sentence stems and four corners, but at the very end she said which of these would you like to focus on, which of these would you like to try? And great coaching involves making sure the learner is in the driver's seat and they're able to choose and have voice in what they are using and what they are teaching. So she could have come out and said Ashley, I want you to do anticipating monitoring. I think we're just in connecting and we're going to start with anticipating and monitoring. Here we go, take out your notebook. But then she would have been in the driver's seat, right.

Speaker 2:

It would have been her strategy Right, but instead she gave you a whole bunch of strategies and she allowed you to have voice and choice in what you were going to do, and that is one important way to build buy-in with teachers and to help them feel like they have ownership over what they're learning and what they're trying. So I thought that was a great way to end the session.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it also, I think, for me at least, and, I assume, other teachers out there it makes me get excited about what I'm learning about. Get excited about what I'm learning about. So I actually want to try it in my class because it was directed towards me, as opposed to just somebody telling me you need to do this thing which, yeah, maybe I would do but probably wouldn't be as excited about. But I feel like I had choice and voice in it which makes me want to go put it in my classroom.

Speaker 2:

Right, and she doesn't necessarily know exactly what your students are like or what your teaching style is, so he needs to give you options and let you ultimately be the one who makes the decision about what and how you do it.

Speaker 1:

I think she did a great job, so once again, you found a great coach for me. Thank you, as always.

Speaker 2:

All right, no problem, I'll see you next week.

Speaker 1:

All right, have a great rest of your day. Bye, bye, bye.