Teaching to the Standard: Breaking It Down and Building It Up

In this episode, Ashley and Dan sit down with Juliana Coleman, an experienced science educator and instructional coach, to discuss how to effectively teach to a standard while ensuring students develop deeper understanding rather than just memorizing facts. 

Juliana breaks down common misconceptions about rigor, explains how to analyze standards to scaffold learning, and shares practical strategies for helping students think critically. 

Whether you're struggling to move beyond surface-level teaching or looking for ways to differentiate instruction while maintaining high expectations, this episode has insights for you.

Key Topics Covered:

• The misconceptions of rigor—why it’s not about more work or moving faster.
• How to break down a standard into manageable steps and scaffold learning.
• The importance of prior knowledge and addressing misconceptions before diving into instruction.
• Using Hess’s Rigor Matrix and Bloom’s Taxonomy to ensure students reach the intended depth of knowledge.
• Why students should be active participants in learning, not passive observers.
• How collaboration among teachers can help clarify standards and improve instruction.

Resources Mentioned:

• Hess’s Rigor Matrix —a tool for determining the depth of knowledge required for a standard.
• Lesson Planning Checklist —Juliana’s guide to ensuring lessons align with the rigor of the standard.

Quotable Moments:

• “Rigor isn’t about giving students more work—it’s about the type of thinking we ask them to do.” — Juliana Coleman
• “The person doing the talking is doing the learning.” — Juliana Coleman
• “If we scaffold down to help students but never scaffold back up, we’re not meeting the standard.” — Juliana Coleman

Don’t Miss:

• Ashley’s realization: How focusing on the verb in the standard can change lesson planning.
• Dan’s concept mapping strategy for planning instruction, identifying misconceptions, and assessing learning.
• Juliana’s best advice for differentiation—when to model, when to let students take the lead and how to adjust based on student needs.

Want to take your teaching to the next level? Listen in for strategies you can apply right away!

The Southern Regional Education Board is a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization that works with states and schools to improve education at every level, from early childhood through doctoral education and the workforce.

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Transcript

0:29

Hello, I am Ashley Shaw. I'm the host of this podcast and with me today is Daniel Rock, my co host. Hi, Dan. How are you? Hey, Ashley. How's it going today? It is going great. I'm really excited about today's episode. How about for you? I'm just always thrilled to be here. What's on your mind these days? On my mind this week is something that I know I've heard a lot of people talk about. And it is. What exactly does it mean when it says, teach to a standard, it's like you get your standards, you have your standards, and sometimes going past those standards and actually getting them done can be difficult. And I want some advice on how to Actually teach the standards in a way that students are going to learn what they're supposed to learn. You have anybody for me? So just so I'm clear. Yeah, word it better. You want to improve your ability to ensure that you understand what the standard says, what students need to learn, and that you're able to communicate and scaffold that for the students. Yes, that's a much better way to phrase what I'm asking you than how I said it. So glad you could read my mind like that and understand what I'm saying. And that's important because we can teach students all kinds of stuff, but if it's not what the standard says they're supposed to learn, then A, you're kind of going rogue, and B, they're not going to be prepared for the assessments Because the assessments, the state assessments are aligned to those standards, we hope. I think a person to speak with is Juliana Coleman. Juliana is a science expert. But she's also a teaching expert. She's lives in Alabama and she has worked with teachers in Birmingham, Alabama, but also all over the country. And she is really strong at breaking down complex ideas because of her science background. All right. Well, I'm always excited to connect with my fellow Alabamians. So let's bring her in. Hi, thank you so much for joining me here today. How are you? Nicholas, how are you this morning? I am doing pretty well. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Before we get started, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are? I would be glad to. Born and raised in Alabama, became an educator in the early nineties, taught high school science, mainly chemistry for a lot of years. Before I transitioned to administration, did that for a few years. And then I went to central office where I worked with teachers on planning and execution of lessons and instructional practices and all that kind of good stuff. And, then I retired and came to SREB as an instructional coach. Well, science teachers always impressed me because science was the one subject that I just didn't know. I could not get as a student. I hear that a lot, actually. So thank you so much for coming. And I asked Dan if he could find me a coach who could help me figure out how to get past just the basics of the standard. I want them to be really critically thinking about it and being able to understand what we're talking about and go deeper than just the bare minimum. Is that something you could help me with? I believe I can. I think I can help you do that. All right. Well, that's great. Let's see what you have in store for us today. I would say the very first thing you need to do is truly look at your standards and what the standard is asking students to know and be able to do. We've had standards for a very long time, but those standards have changed over the past few years, and what students are being asked to do has increased in rigor. So, what they're supposed to be able to do with the content itself is where teachers tend to struggle. Does that sound like something that you're having trouble with? That definitely sounds like something that I have trouble with. I think one of the very first things that we have to talk about regarding this is what does What does rigor even mean? There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what rigor is and what it looks like and what it should be, and those are not necessarily true. One thing is that people think rigor means to give more work. So if I have a, say an honors class or an AP class, it's different from my general class or my regular class in that I just give them way more work. Another one that I hear a lot is that we live faster. And we cover more content. If I ask you, for example, what is the definition of exaggerate? Most people can tell you in some way or form what the word exaggerate means, right? Yes. But if I ask you, what is the definition of pellucid? Yeah, I've never heard that word. So I was trying to think if I could like get the root word right behind it. And I was like, no, I'm just going to say, I don't know it. Well, and you could have trouble with my Alabama accent as well. I might've said it incorrectly, but it means to be clear. Okay. I'm sure you're saying it correctly. I also am from Alabama, so I would pronounce it the exact same way. There you go. There you go. Well, if you look at something called Hess's Rigor Matrix, which it helps you look at the type of thinking students need to be doing at different levels of DOK, which is depth of knowledge, and it also blends Bloom's Taxonomy in there. Both of those words. Or a D O K 1, which is basically recall. You either know it or you don't know it. And just because you don't know it, does not make it rigorous. It just means you don't know it yet. So that is a huge misunderstanding with rigor. Rigor And can I stop you? I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt. Just to mention one thing to the audience listening out there, that you did give me the HESS's chart that I will put in the show notes so that anybody listening can find it and use it. With this lesson. So first of all, thank you for sharing that. And second, sorry for interrupting and feel free to continue now. Rigor is about the type of thinking that we're asking students to do. Okay, so it's not about how hard or how much work you're giving. It's about the type of thinking. We want students to think deep about our content so that they make connections. They can apply it to real world situations. And we want them to grow and continue to grow. And so, if you look at your standard and look at that verb at the very beginning. So, for example, in science, it might be something like analyze data. Okay? That word analyze. Means students have to do a certain thing with it. So, moving toward that and helping students to get to that, it's not just looking at data and picking out numbers. It is truly analyzing it and making conceptual understanding in their minds so that they can take it to a different level. Okay? I think that makes perfect sense and I can see it being kind of the recall versus the understanding being the difference of They can pass a quiz, I can give them a quiz and they can pass it because they've memorized the stats or the data or the facts or whatever from the textbook and then they pass the quiz and then they go to write an essay or something like that and it's like, okay, when you pass the quiz, I know you did the reading, but it is not reflected in what you're writing. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's what happens a lot of times and that we as teachers think that students have skills that they do not have. And so, That's one breakdown that you can have in teaching to the standard, is you think students have this particular skill, so you teach to the level of the standard, and then you don't get the results that you want. Because what you have to do is you have to go back and make sure that they have those prerequisite skills. Can they read a graph? Do they even know where to put the data in a table and how to set up a table? And to truly analyze something. It's a skill in itself, and if they've never been asked to do that before, someone has to teach you how to do those things. Right. That makes sense. If you truly look at your standard, and you take something like the Hess's Rigor Matrix, which helps you to see the depth of knowledge, and if you're more comfortable with Bloom's, it gives it to you on Bloom's as well, so that you can See what you need to do in order to get a student to a specific skill. So for example, I took a math standard and I looked at it and I used my rigor matrix to see where it was. So the standard I picked is a 7th grade math and it says, Develop a probability model by observing frequencies in data generated from a chance process. So, when I took that rigor matrix and I looked at it, it gave me a depth of knowledge of two, and then it gave me a Bloom's level of understanding. So, to get my students to that level, there are some things that have to happen first. Okay? So, you need to think about that as a teacher, what can my students do and what can they not do? Then, you need to look at it and say, Well, what does that even mean to develop a probability model? What does that look like, okay? For students to do it, what we tend to see is teachers do all the work and students tend to sit there as passive getters of information, for lack of a better way to say it, but then when you ask them to do that same thing on a test or an assessment, they can't do it. Because usually the one who does the work is doing the learning. Yes. And it's very hard to do that as a teacher, to give up control, to let students make mistakes. But we all learn from making mistakes. Some of the, the things that I know that are cemented in my brain. Or from where I made a mistake, somehow, someway, and I had to correct that mistake, so the learning stuck. Yes. So that's, that's one thing. Definitely, same for me. I mean, there's so many things in my life that I know that I made a mistake and I'm like, I'm not making that mistake again. And then that's how the right process stuck in my head is by remembering the wrong process first. Exactly. Let's go back to our probability. Usually what I will see in a classroom is a teacher will give a probability problem and then they will do the work as in the teacher has a little bag and it has two colors of chips in it for lack of a better way to say it and the teacher pulls things from a bag, pulls a little chip from the bag, and then they pull another one and they keep pulling. So the teacher is the one Doing the experiment, doing the activity, doing the whatever. And the students are just copying down what's happening. Or what the teacher tells them to write down. Oh look, I did this, so now this is what you should see. And they give them all of the answers or all of the information. Instead of what that standard is asking students to do, is students should be the one having the little bag with the chips in it. And they should be pulling themselves and having conversations and making meaning of what they're experiencing. The teacher acts more as a facilitator in case things kind of get off track in their thinking. But the students are the one doing and making those connections instead of the teacher just showing and giving the information. So now I have a question with that because that does make sense to me. Eventually to get to that point, but it sounds like what I'm hearing that the way that I think it's difficult for me is I feel like I'm supposed to model first. I'm the one with the bag of chips doing it first. Right. And get to the student. As opposed to starting with it, which is what it sounds like you're saying. First of all, am I right that that's what you're saying? Well, I think personally it can be done either way. Some people feel like they have to model. Some people are more comfortable letting the students. I think that depends, number one, on your personality as a teacher and what your teacher vibe is and how you put things out for students. That might be a great idea for the students that you teach. Maybe you do something different with one group of students than you do with a different group of students based on what the students, what their level of understanding is already. Like I said, if you differentiate for kids, you might have one group of kids that you know, okay, I can give them the little bag of chips, and they can pull, and they can do. But this group over here, I need to have a small group, and I need to model for them first. So that I know that they understand the process and what's happening. Just depends. That's called differentiation. You do things different for what students need. Okay. I like that. I like the idea of being able to judge what I'm going to do based on the group of students. Because I do, somehow it always ends up being, there's always one class that's like the star class. And then one class that's like, this is the struggle bus. Exactly. So I like being able to think of it that way. I do tend to be more of a modeler. But. Maybe I want to start not being a modeler. So let's say I have my STAR class and I do want to do this activity with them. And I want them to just do it on their own. And I'm the facilitator. Like you said, I've always been told practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. And so to me, if I'm giving it to them and I'm like, okay, let's do this, even though I'm there, maybe guiding them, how are they getting it when they don't have the model first? What does that look like? As a science teacher, I did not just give students a Bunsen burner and a striker and say, Okay, figure it out, because that is dangerous. I had to model the how to. So, this is how you light a Bunsen burner. These are the steps or the processes or the whatever. Compared to the doing the entire demonstration with the Bunsen burner and students just sitting there watching me do it. Modeling can be for a multitude of reasons. So you might have to model the process that you want students to follow. But that doesn't mean that you are giving them the answers and that they don't have any interaction with whatever it is you're asking them to do. So for example, I'll do an English example because that's what I know. One of the things that we have to do in one of my English classes would be by the end of the semester, they have to be able to compose an argumentative essay. And so, something that I might do is I'll sometimes, I'll write my own of whatever their assignment is. I'll do the assignment too. And then they have that as a model. It's a little different than like an in class assignment, but that idea. And then they will be able to have a model while they're writing. Correct. I kind of want to move from that because then they're just kind of copying my style. They're not thinking and they're not composing their own argument, kind of just mimicking what I did in my argument, which maybe is good at certain levels, but by the time they get to the level of my class, they should be able to form their own arguments and their own thoughts and opinions. So sometimes I'll try to have them do an activity where they write an essay together in class, like a really short essay, just talking out together. And then sometimes though, the problem is they do this and they don't do what they're supposed to be doing. And then they're teaching each other how to write some things that maybe they shouldn't be teaching to each other. Right. So what I want to do is find that balance, I guess, where I'm not just giving them the answer, basically with the model essay, but that they're not teaching each other incorrectly. And so that, I guess, is what I want to know. How could I model and not model and have them to learn it and learn it correctly? Right. I would say in, in that particular scenario is that I think I would have them, I would model for them with something that is not English based. argumentative essay. So give them something that they are very familiar with like what is the best candy. So you have to determine on your own and then you teach them the process of how you want it written in the things that are included in an argumentative essay but with something that is easy access for all students. It's not something hard that they have to They have an opinion, right, about what the best candy is, for example. So you're going to have some kids that say sour gummies. You're going to have some kids that say chocolate. You're going to have some kids that say Ring Pops. You know, whatever it is. But you teach them the processes and you model with them on something. They're not getting a grade for it, so it's, so they can express themselves how they want to in that manner, but then you as the teacher have the control to make sure that they have the pieces of an argumentative essay in place, and then you can chunk it into smaller pieces. So this is what you do first in an argumentative essay. A, B, C, D. So now you're going to do that with this, and they can still have those conversations and talk about it, but you have more of a control. Chunk it into the next piece. Here's the next piece we're going to do. You need to be able to A, B, C, D in an argumentative essay, and you need to go and pull information that helps you prove your point as to which one is the, the best candy or the best tennis shoe or whatever. The best, the best singer who's, you know, who's the best singer in the whole world. And you know, you're going to have some kids that jump in on that and then they're interested in it as well. So then when you get to the part that is literature based, for example, and you want to, you want them to be able to do that same skill, they have all of the things that you've taught them all the way through so that they can write that argumentative essay based on whatever the standard is asking you to do content wise. Okay. I think that makes a lot of sense and that's really useful. Now with that knowledge in mind, let's go back to your math example. We're now back. We have our little chips in our bag. Okay. Yeah. So how do we do the similar thing for that math person? Well I think, I will give you thinking about the same process, but thinking about it from a coaching situation that I had. Okay. So I was working with a teacher one time. And it was on a standard that asked students to collect and analyze data and use that data to, as evidence in something. Okay. So the teacher was teaching the standard and she had the students collect data in a lab and then they you know, put it in a table and then she asked them questions. So what did the data show you about da da da da da da? And it was total breakdown. Students did not know what to do. So, in our coaching conversation, what we determined when we looked at all of these different factors and looked at what they had done the year before, maybe in a science class, and what she had done throughout the school year and stuff like that, is that students didn't know how to analyze data at all. They had never done it before. And so she made a huge assumption Which is a big breakdown in looking at your standard is you make an assumption that students can do something when they've never been exposed to that. So what she and I did is we went through a step by step process of talking about how are we going to get your students to be able to do this. And that's what we did is we chunked it down into little pieces. So, the first thing that she realized is the type of questions that she was asking during the data collection itself, so during the, the lab or the experiment or whatever it was that they were doing, that she wasn't asking questions that got students to think about what they were doing. So the why questions, and the how questions, and the what do you think happened here questions. The next thing that we got to is that she realized students really didn't know how to even put the data in the right place on the data table. So, what is my independent variable? What is my dependent variable? How does that look when I put it in a graph? How do I set up my graph? There were all of these kind of things, and so we chunked that into a piece. And then we went to a support system as well, is what you have to think about as a teacher. Is that in the question part of using the data, using the graph, thinking about all of the things all the way through, students couldn't get their thinking going. So we set up some sentence stems to help students to differentiate, to give them that support that they needed right there at the beginning, so that they could get their thoughts down on paper. A lot of times it's a breakdown of what's in my brain, And getting it to go all the way down to the end of my fingers and write it out on a piece of paper. Yes, that's definitely difficult. It is. Giving them a starting point with sentence stems was a huge way to do that, okay? So this was like a year long process that she and I went through to help her get her students to be able to analyze data, collect the data, analyze the data, and then to be able to use that data as evidence. To support their understanding of what had happened in the phenomenon. Okay. And so can I, I'm going to say something that you just said there that really sticks out to me a lot is that I think it's easy to just be able to look at the standard as one thing and really what you just did was you broke it up into multiple parts of the standard and there were multiple steps that they had to be able to do, and you have to look at each part of the step individually. Can they do part one, can they do part two, can they do part three? So I thought that was something important to highlight a bit. Well, thank you. And it's, like I said, that tends to be a breakdown is that teachers think students can, but they can't. And then what do you do? That's kind of the next thing. They can't. So how do I support them? But then here's another problem, another breakdown that tends to occur. Is that. We break it down into smaller pieces, but then we stay right there. We don't ever move to the level of the standard. So we collect data, but we never truly analyze data. So that's another breakdown that can occur is that we scaffold down to help, to support students, but then we never scaffold back up again. So you have to be very careful with that. But you don't forget what your goal is, and your goal is looking at that standard, looking at the verb, the context of that verb. So what is it truly asking students to do? It says to collect, analyze, and use data to, okay? If we collect and that's all we ever do, then you're not meeting the rest of that standard. Right. So looking at that. Right. Well, that makes a lot of sense. So okay, let's maybe, so the first step is to break it down and make sure we know what the standard is, what specific steps of the standard, and make sure we know what part students already can do versus what they can't do. Correct. And to make sure that we're doing all those parts instead of scaffolding down. Right. And not going back up. And I think this makes a lot of sense. But I can also see teachers being like, okay, yeah, it makes sense in theory, but it's not that easy. That's why I struggle with this issue. So, do you have any advice for teachers that listen to what you just said and they're trying to do the things you said and they're still having challenges? Yeah, I think one thing that people have when they look at the standard and what the standard is asking students to do Some standards can be very ambiguous and you're like, what does that even mean? And it's in the wording. And I think that really looking at the standard and talking with your peers about what does that mean? What do we as a science department or a social studies department feel that this means? And what do we want students to be able to do with it? You can, once you look at your standards, you can also, if your, if your district or your state has a blueprint toward testing, it can give you an idea of the types of questions that will be asked on your state test or your district test or whatever it is that you have. And in that way, that can help guide you to understand what that standard is asking. And an example of that, if I, I looked at a social studies standard and it asked students to explain the causes and consequences of World War I. So the word explain, what does that mean? What does it mean to truly explain something? And coming to a consensus as a team, so within your school, looking at your professional learning communities and sitting down and talking about these standards. So what does the word explain mean and what are we as the teachers who are trying to get students to do this, what are we going to ask them to be able to truly do when they explain something, okay? And this particular one, it says causes and. And that is another thing that tends to happen is that within a standard, we get to one piece of it and we talk about the causes and we teach the causes and we ask students to know the causes and we never talk about the consequences. So really making sure that you're doing the entire standards. Something that I just noticed with what you just said, you were talking earlier, we talked about having students do it and you didn't necessarily go into detail about this, but In groups, having them do this in groups, and then we talked a little bit about with like my model essay, having something for them to, to use, but not just copy the answers from, and now I'm hearing you, as you're saying the teacher's challenges, the two things you said there were. Go to your support team, go to the other teachers and talk out with them. And then you said, look at the test that your state gives that, see what it's going to be. So I feel like it's the same thing that you're saying. It is. Do for your students, do for yourself. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. I am a true believer in that the more people you have come to the table, you are going to come to a better understanding of what the expectation is. Not only for yourself as to what you do as a teacher, but what the expectation is for students in regards to learning and understanding. I just, I've always felt that way. I work better as a team than I do individually. And I think that, once again, as educators, you model for yourself what you want your students to be able to do. And so if you want them to work as a team, then you also have to work as a team. Yes, I love that. I think that's great. Also, everybody has different knowledge. You can go, I don't know how to get students to write an essay or to, to write a explanation about something. And somebody goes, Oh, I went to this great workshop and they gave me, this is how you do that. And these are the pieces of what needs to be in a true explanation that somebody gives. And then you come together as a team and say, how do I teach this? What do I do? How did you do this? And you become more. And I do think that teachers just like students need examples of what it looks like in the classroom because you can read about something or you can go to a professional learning of some type and you can't get it in your mind or I'm thinking about me. I could not get it in my mind sometimes, what does that look like in the classroom? How do I get students to do that? And it can be a logistical thing, like putting them in groups and then giving materials to students and, and things like that. And so you need someone that you can turn to that can give you an example of what it looks like in the real world of a classroom and not just somebody telling you how to do this. All right. Well, I love that. Amy Pino. If your school has a great instructional coach of some type or you have a coaching situation that you can turn to that coach to help you out, give you some feedback on scaffolding and differentiation and looking at the standard and things that you can do to support students with that. I don't think we turn to people enough to help us. I think we all think we can do it on our own when collaboration is key, whether it be in your department, whether it be your grade level, whether it be within your district. You know, you have people at the district level sometimes that can help support you through things like that. And if you don't feel you have that, I mean, hopefully everybody out there has instructional coaches, they have all that, but if your school doesn't have an instructional coach, feel free to, if you have an issue, write in to us. I want to be able to help you. I am an instructional coach and do get to sit down with instructional coaches each week as I do this and I can use as one of my questions of the week and we can get it that way. So if you don't have that support necessarily built into your school, feel free to use us as a resource. Definitely, definitely reach out. Well, this has been really helpful. The bell you just heard does mean that we are almost out of time. Do you have some homework for us today? As a teacher, of course I do. The first thing I would do is I would definitely look at HES's rigor matrix and they are broken down. There's one for social studies and humanities. There's one for career tech, science and math, foreign language even. But look at those, look at your standard, whatever the standard is that you're coming up on, and use that rigor matrix to help you see if the activities that you're doing are meeting the level of the standard. And it'll help you scaffold the things that you need to do from DOK 1 to DOK 2 to DOK 3, so forth. And then also through Blim's Taxonomy, from understanding down to creating, if that's how far you want to go. Okay? But really look at it and be honest with yourself about the activities and the level that they are and the type of thinking that you're asking students to do. I also have a checklist for planning. So the next time you start to plan a lesson, you can use that checklist to kind of help yourself think through what you're doing. And hopefully it'll help you plan a lesson that meets the level of the standard that you're trying to reach. All right. Well, that sounds great. Everybody out there, if you try that, share with us how it works. You can find us on social media and you'll hear all our handles in a second. Juliana, thank you so much for coming here and being with us about this today. It's been really helpful. Excellent. I'm glad you enjoyed it and thank you for having me. Have a great day. See you next time. Bye bye. Bye. All right, Ashley, that was a great episode. It was. I feel like I learned a lot. So when you teach a standard now, what are some things you definitely are going to keep in mind when you approach those standards? As an English teacher, I am excited that I now know to look for the verb. That's right. You're always remember what the verb is and how important that is. Also, to build those objectives into my scaffolding and also to. Not just look at the verb of the standard, but look at how I can break the standard down and scaffold it into my entire lesson and make sure that they understand every stage of the objective. A woman named Suzanne Simons once said that standards are ways of thinking. And I think that's really helpful. So as I look at a standard, I ask, how do I need my students to think when they're approaching this? There's the what, the what's pretty straightforward, but the how is where the levels of complexity come into play. Right. So, I want to just think about what she said from a coach's perspective. One area she really zoomed in on was prior knowledge and misconceptions. And trying to figure out. What your students know, but also what they think they know, but they're wrong about right. Right. Good point. Yeah, and that's a big one That's what a lot of challenges come for learning is when you think you know something But you know it wrong, and trying to fix that is not as easy as you might think. So, what, what she's talked about was identifying those. So as a coach, when I'm planning, if I'm co planning with a teacher, creating a concept map that has the standard, and I might make a little line from the standard with a bubble, like a little thought bubble. And have misconceptions, right? What are some misconceptions that kids are going to have with the standard? And then I might have another bubble and it might have an assessment question. So if I'm starting with the end in mind, I'm going to ask myself, how am I going to assess the standard? What is the question I'm going to ask? One tool that I've used with AI is I'll. At put the standard in and say create a multiple choice and free response question that students that assess the standard as it might be seen on a standardized test because I want. To be thinking about how this standard is assessed across the land, across your state, not just how I want to assess it, right? Not just how I think you'll show an understanding of mitosis by drawing a picture of a cell having, going through that process. Okay, but the standard doesn't say, you know, be able to draw a picture. It says be able to explain the stages. So I need some kind of assessment that shows those. So planning that first, misconceptions, assessment items, or looking in a state test for the assessment items for that. If you start there and maybe even give those questions at the beginning of the lesson and see what happens. So they, the kids can see what they're gonna learn and how they're gonna need to know it, how they need to know this. That can be very helpful. And then on my concept map, I might also include essential questions and I might also include ways I might scaffold this. So creating a a, a planning concept map with a teacher, it's a great way to break down those standards. Okay. Yeah, I can see that being really useful. Well, I hope this helps everybody, and I look forward to seeing what you have to bring next time. Bye.