Muslim Money Talk
Introducing the Muslim Money Talk Podcast, a place for all things Muslim and Money related.
Every week we'll be sitting down with Founders, leaders and industry experts from across multiple disciplines to discuss lessons learned, mistakes made and most importantly 'How they did it?'.
Brought to you by Kestrl: The Muslim Money App, software to help Muslims grow their wealth without compromise. Find out more here: https://kestrl.io/
Muslim Money Talk
Can Muslim WOMEN Have a Successful CAREER and MARRIAGE? | Arfah Farooq - Muslim Money Talk Ep 20
Meet Arfah Farooq, co-founder of Muslamic Makers and Muslim Tech Fest!
She shares her journey of community building, balancing family life, and the evolving role of Muslims in tech and entrepreneurship. This conversation explores the challenges of ambition, faith, and creating meaningful change while navigating societal and industry obstacles.
This podcast is powered by Kestrl.
Kestrl is an app that helps Muslim to grow their wealth without compromising their beliefs
Kestrl - The Muslim Money App
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Timestamp Breakdown:
00:00 - Intro
03:04 - Origins of Muslamic Makers
05:22 - Founding Discoverables at University
09:00 - Community Management as a career path
12:02 - Building a community in Covid
18:15 - Considering leaving Muslamic Makers for family life
21:10 - Founding Muslim Tech Fest
24:52 - Celebrating Muslim Tech Talent
26:53 - Kestrl’s experience sponsoring MTF
29:50 - When to use a Branding Agency
32:29 - Deciding when to Monetise
36:14 - Leaving the VC industry due to Palestine
41:48 - Deciding when to go full time on your start-up
44:42 - Does Diversity & Inclusion work?
48:31 - Losing sponsors due to pro-Palestinian stance
50:05- San Francisco vs. London
54:02 - Can Muslim Women balance careers and family?
57:55 - Can women really have it all? Dealing with maternity leave
01:03:18 - Arfah’s legacy and hopes for the community
The day Rafa was burning, I literally had a sponsor drop out on us because of pro-Palestinian stuff. I think ultimately I want to build a world where we as a community just keep uplifting each other and we keep connecting and we get rid of any kind of hostilities between us and we actually do collaborate for the sake of collaboration and remember that our risk is our risk and that it's you know, it's all going to be provided for in the end Life balance, etc. So can women have it all, then our risk and that it's you know, it's all going to be provided for in the end, life, the idea of balance, etc.
Speaker 2:so can women have it all, then? In today's episode, I'm joined by arfa farouk, the co-founder of muslimic makers, as well as, most recently, muslim tech fest, which has been growing in popularity all the way from london to san Francisco. We discuss everything from community building, diversity and inclusion, muslims in tech as well as in venture capital and the all-important question can Muslim women really have it all when it comes to their careers as well as their lives at home? As always, I'm your host, areeb Siddiqui, and this is Muslim Money Talk. Before we begin, we actually noticed only about 10% of you are subscribed to the podcast, so if you like what you're listening to and you want to hear more from us and see more things Muslim and money related, then please consider subscribing and, of course, leaving this episode a like and share it with your friends. Leave us a comment or a review, because it really really does help us out and help more people to find us. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Now back to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for joining us, and I'm also, just in the chat we were having outside, really pleased to hear that you actually listen to the podcast.
Speaker 1:So it's uh, always good when a guest is kind of familiar yeah, no, of course, a lot of uh awesome people that I know quite well on it, so it's really nice to hear their backstories. It's a small community especially.
Speaker 2:That's exactly the theme we're going to be talking about today. So much we can talk about community building, d&i, diversity, muslims in VC, thoughts around money, family, parenthood, but to start it all off, we should start off with a little bit of an intro of you. You, to start it all off, we should start off with a little bit of an intro of you. You've been featured in outlets like BBC News, forbes, computer Weekly. You were named one of the most influential women in tech in the UK. You're a parent to a three-year-old and you're the founder of many successful things from Islamic Makers, muslim Tech Fest, muslims in VC, vc. Uh, a little known startup called I have it here somewhere um, discoverables. There you go, discoverables. So I guess, in a word, how do you get it done?
Speaker 1:gosh, how do I get it parka? I think I think um I've got that has given me um a lot of parka in my time? Uh, yeah, I think that's literally it, like a lot of people do ask me the same question, and I just feel like somehow Allah has given me maybe infinite amounts of time that has enabled me to do a lot in a short while.
Speaker 2:Varnala, it's crazy to think like to get all of that stuff done and actually you're still you know, yeah, I think that's probably like 10,.
Speaker 1:12 years yeah, I think that's probably like 10, 12 years, incredible, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:So I first came across you, I think, with Muslimic Makers around the time of COVID I think that's when I joined the Slack channel. And Muslimic Makers, how would you define it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Muslimic Makers is a community of Muslim changemakers, upskilling the next generation.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? Exactly?
Speaker 1:So ultimately, I think for me is tech enables a lot of change and I feel like tech can really change the world and if we have more Muslims within it, let that be in tech, corporate jobs or as tech founders we can have a positive impact in society, and it's just such a fast-paced industry. From what I first set out Muslimic Makers to where we are now in terms of accessibility of tech, has completely changed.
Speaker 2:So what was the problem that you noticed for Muslims, specifically when it came to tech type jobs, because it's not just for founders, it's for anyone in and around tech or who has aspirations to go into tech. What was the specific problem that you wanted to set up Muslim Makers to address?
Speaker 1:Sure. So the problem was me, as in me navigating the world, I wasn't seeing other Muslim techies, muslims in tech. I knew they existed, and 2016, right. So this is all very early, early kind of london tech scene. It's not what it is right now. I was approached by mortaza, another fellow um techie who was working design at the time, who said, hey, you work at tech, I work at tech, I think we could do some kind of meetup. And I thought, yeah, okay, maybe it'll be. Five of us at a coffee shop Did our first event. 150 people turned up. So we're like, okay 150 people, 50, 50.
Speaker 2:Oh, 50 people. Still, that's a lot of people for a coffee shop.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean we ended up doing it at Makers, where I was working at the time, but what completely took over my expectations of? Actually there was a huge interest here and, like I said, it wasn't tech wasn't accessible as it is now, because back then tech was mainly often seen as coding, it was seen as quite technical, it was quite seen as like a certain kind of ethos, whereas now tech is much more accessible. It can be non-tech pathways, it could be. You know, people are using chat, gpt, you know, to build products or whatever it is, etc. Right, no code and all of those things.
Speaker 1:So I feel like it's text like had a massive movement over those last kind of eight years since I first built mm and I think back then it just felt like a very mysterious thing for people. They didn't quite know how to break into it, how do I get into that industry, etc what were you doing at the time?
Speaker 2:because, murtaza, he's your co-founder yeah, of Mosaic Makers um, how do you reach out to you? How do you think that, okay, this is the right person to do this with?
Speaker 1:yeah sure, so um, he was following my work through my startup beforehand, which was a discoverables. It was a soft skills um startup for young people you say you, you founded that accidentally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, how okay, so last year of university. It's funny because now like now, every uni kid has a for startup, but back then it gained, like I said, it wasn't that much right? So this is 2012, and last year of my uni, and I got accepted onto this um online program called spark and metal. Um, totally changed my my life, um.
Speaker 1:It was an online coaching program to help young people develop soft skills, and what I mean by soft skills are things like resilience, positive relationships and all of those kind of skills that often private school kids um are kind of taught, but state school kids are not. And for me, um so this the lady who set it up for Janie super privileged Oxford, went to private school, all of that jazz, but used to work in a state school, and she recognized that she was on maternity leave, so she set up this program, got accepted onto it and I she was like my coach, my agent, and through that, I got to learn a lot about soft skills. What we realized, though that program wasn't scalable, right, it was what 20 people in a year, or something like that it was the first time they'd they'd run it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, first time they ran it and, by the way, it was so innovative, right, we were delivering it on Google Hangouts back then, 2012?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2012. I didn't know it existed then.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, it was known as Google Hangouts, so it wasn't known as Google Meets.
Speaker 1:It was known as Google Hangouts back then. Yeah, exactly so, before it became google meet. Yeah, that's how it was basically delivered, all through kind of video calling and when we kind of we were like, okay, there's something here, but how do we take the best parts of this program and actually make it scalable? How do we create challenges for young people? And, um, a pot of money had opened by the design council. Youth unemployment, by the way, was at its most highest at that point in time. I was just graduating too, so I'm like, great, I'm graduating at the time when youth unemployment at its highest. So we were like, okay, how can we come up with this solution to teach young people soft skills but at the same time capture their experiences and life skills? So CVs never articulated who I am, because I always did little things. You know, at university. You know I was a black and ethnic officer or I was maybe putting on the multicultural event. Maybe I was doing this. I had like pockets of experience. That was very kind of jasper ties.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like but it was relatively consistent.
Speaker 1:Exactly so. Lots of different little things. So I create a Pinterest CV, so I like create on really yes, I was like you could probably find it online, but it was like I like pinned pictures of things that I had done and then wrote, like my experience. So we took what I did with my Pinterest CV and this program that I was on and we combined it and that ultimately became what Discoverables was.
Speaker 2:And that was together with the founder of Spark, imagine.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that spun out then to become its own tech company. We got onto Wira Unlimited. Wira is backed by Telefonica O2. So I found myself in a tech startup Accelerator and that's basically how I ended up in tech. And Eugenie was like do you want to be co-founder of this thing? I'm like, yeah, sure, so me, her, another guy. We're just like directors now of this company, not really knowing anything about the responsibilities.
Speaker 1:And this was straight out of uni, yeah, straight out of uni, straight out of uni. And then, yes, when we got that pot of money, then I kind of went full time on it for pretty much, I'd say, about a year and that, like I said, is what threw me into this world of tech early London tech scene, going to these places and not seeing people like me you know at that time, a young brown Muslim girl.
Speaker 2:So who is Arfa Farouk Like? Who were you before all of this? Because you grew up in East London you mentioned state school, like what were you into growing up? Did you ever think you'd end up in tech, or did you have? Did your parents pick out you were going to do like doctor, lawyer, accountant? Did you have that kind of ambition?
Speaker 1:So I think for me is I. I always knew I was like different, in the sense of I wasn't very academic-y. So I always say I was like. You know, you get the gifted and talented kids and then you get the kids right at the bottom. I was like the missed middle.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Right, so like by achieving the in-between kind of that kind of thing. Academia thing wasn't mine. I studied media and communication at university because I thought I wanted to go down like the journalism-y type path.
Speaker 2:Where was?
Speaker 1:that Goldsmiths University. I was speaking there tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Oh cool, their entrepreneurship thing. Sorry, yeah, I know, but that's funny, Okay yeah so I went to Goldsmiths University.
Speaker 1:That obviously exposed me a lot to like political stuff. So, yeah, I was quite into like politics, journalism, so I thought maybe I'd go down that pathway. Then I kind of like did the journalism documentary making thing at uni and I was a bit like, oh yeah, I don't want to live. This life is a bit really so like we made like a little documentary at uni and stuff like that, and you weren't into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. I think for me it was just like I was producing it and stuff and it's just the lifestyle of it was just.
Speaker 1:It's quite funny because now I look back on it and now I feel like I'm living that kind of lifestyle but, like back then it was just like, okay, yeah, how's this going to work with like work-life balance and you know it's all itty-bitty and like if there's just no like flow and routine to it, right? So that's when I kind of thought, okay, maybe this thing isn't for me. Through that program, the, the coaching program, and eugenie was like to me hey, erfa, like you, you have a certain kind of energy on twitter and in rooms you walk into. Have you thought about social media community management as a career?
Speaker 1:now again, 2012, right, social media management was just becoming a thing, right, like brands were starting to take to twitter and building that voice. So I got myself an internship but literally just saw it on Twitter, saw the application, and I was like, oh okay, I think it might have already passed or it's been two weeks, so I thought I'm not going to bother applying if they've already filled the role. So I just tweeted them saying, hey, is this thing open? They took like two weeks to reply and then they finally got back to me and they were like oh yeah. And then I just said I was really cheeky with them and I said something like oh, don't worry, I'll be like. Oh, don't worry, I'll be running your social media account. And they were like all right, young lady, come in for an interview.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 1:So that's how I got my first internship through that and that was again through Eugenie, seeing a certain talent in me and saying have you thought about kind of going down the social media thing?
Speaker 2:It sounds like Eugenie was quite an influential character in your life. Are you still in touch with her?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, in touch with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she now is um head of impact at amazon. So she does some really, really incredible work at amazon, where, um you know how things go back to amazon and often they end up in landfill. So what she does is make sure they hand up, end up in the hands of needs of people on the poverty line wow so there's some really incredible csr work that she's she's kind of doing there and a very powerful contact to still exactly, exactly gosh.
Speaker 2:So let's go back to 2016. You and mataza had held the first event for what would become muslimic makers. 50 people showed up yeah it was very in person, I didn't realize. You guys have been doing it since 2016 yeah, yeah gosh. And then what? What did you want to do with the community? You wanted to turn it into something that was self-sustaining, thriving, where you could take your own experience in community building and apply it to this thing that you cared about so it's funny that you say my own experience of community building.
Speaker 1:That was my first experience of community building, okay, but in hindsight I realized I've been a community builder since I was in primary school. I was the kid on school council. I was the that kind of kid putting on events, so I already always did community building, but it just wasn't called a thing then, right. But Mozambique Makers, in a sense, was my first experience of proper community building. So I think when we, when we did it, I think it was really like lo-fi in the sense of all we wanted to do was just do meetups. It was very meetups, um, you know, we spoke to tech companies. Tech companies like to host us. Obviously, like I said, I had access to a venue, um. So we just started to be very consistent and I think consistency is really the key of often when it comes to community building and did you find yourself fitting into different companies diversity and inclusion campaigns did?
Speaker 2:was there really a a scene for that at the time?
Speaker 1:so it was very new. So d and I, I would say, was very new and because we were one of the first very niche kind of tech communities to kind of appear, as people started to see noise on Twitter, people, then companies started to approach us being like, oh, why don't you come and host the event here? Because they've never seen that many Muslims walk through their door, right, I used to always like joke about how like Muslimic Makers was almost like we used to take kids on like kids, take our community members on like a school trip where it was like we'd be going to all these like different tech companies or little agencies or game studios or whatever it was, and it was like you know, it was very like right. For people it was like, wow, like they were going to places where they never thought they belonged and all of a sudden we were hosting an event there, signals for these people that actually know I belong here and I can apply for a job here.
Speaker 2:Which is a game changer for a Muslim who might think that would never happen.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. So I think that for me, I think, was kind of the ethos of a lot of the stuff we did. So so, like I said, meetups was mainly kind of our thing. Then, obviously, covid happened, which is probably when you kind of discovered us and we always had like the Slack community. It was kind of bubbling on the side, it was never really like a proper thing, it was just like it was there. It was just there for people to connect between the events. And then we were like, okay, like we've got the Slack community. Obviously, covid came along. So we're like, all right, we need to double down on the online community. And we were like, okay, how do we double down on the online community?
Speaker 1:So, it was the community members.
Speaker 2:You know, they started to do um little kind of virtual lunch hangout. I remember, I think I remember yeah, yeah, yeah, because we I began to use the community to source feedback. So, yeah, I was at cambridge at the time doing my master's and, um, we were trying to collect feedback from people. Do people actually care about islamic finance? So we ran this nationwide survey. We used the slack channel to distribute and start talking to people firsthand to do a lot of those interviews. We ended up speaking to like 3 000 people in the end, uh, but a good chunk of them came through the muslimic makers community or through linkedin and twitter and places like that, because it was the only way to survey people at the time, during covid so yeah, thank you for setting that up because it was pretty.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about it last night. It was pretty formative for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's really lovely to hear. So, yeah, so the people started to do the virtual hangouts. Then we did this online careers program and that, by the way, was a lot of my learnings from being on the sparking metal program so I then applied some of those best bits to like building my own program within mm.
Speaker 1:And then you know, we we did this program doing covid, and like it was all about giving people like taste in different data careers. So it was like there will be a session on data, there'll be a session on product and again off the back of that, you know, people have gone on to product roles or data roles and stuff and it's really nice sometimes when people do message me. Sometimes people forget, but when those people do message you and they're like oh remember, I was on that program, I just wanted to say thank you, because now I'm doing this role and it was because of that program it led to xyz and it's really like beautiful when those things kind of happen.
Speaker 1:But yeah, covid was just like a weird time. So then we started to do, we did a data course, we did a product course, we started to do courses, basically because there was nothing else we could do. We couldn't do in-person events, right. Covid kind of was like over, that was what two year period, and I always had like an ambition and a dream where I wanted Muzamit Makers to be beyond London in the sense of, yes, it was global in terms of the Slack community, but I wanted meetups hosted by our community members in different parts of the world, cities etc. So Manchester was always on the cards for us, but Manchester we had to. They were about to launch an event before COVID. We obviously had to put it on pause and then after COVID we finally made it happen. So Manchester was like our first chapter. Then, um, a slack member from boston america was like, hey, could I?
Speaker 2:I've seen this thing boston yeah like okay, is there a big muslim community in boston?
Speaker 1:yeah so. So yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a decent um size muslim community. So you know anna's from third deal yeah and ali um rahmatullah is his name. Those two came, came together and they were like, can we do a bit?
Speaker 2:of mm. There it's such a small world like the muslims yeah text. Yeah, I feel like everyone, knows everyone or has heard of someone, exactly, exactly, yeah so that was the.
Speaker 1:That was the start of like chapters and basically also going back to in-person events, and I recognized in myself that I didn't want to be some kind of course provider. It didn't like, it wasn't my passion point, so what?
Speaker 2:is going on in your life at this point because it's 2022 yeah you still have a full-time job, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, so 2021 is when, towards the end of covid, I'm pregnant as well, by the way.
Speaker 2:This at this point so you got a married, yeah, so yeah, yeah, so I got married.
Speaker 1:Was it 2019? Teen I think it was. And then, yeah, so all of that stuff, and then covid comes along. Then I'm like, okay, like we're about to come out of covid and it was five years, by the way of like mm. And I was like trying to figure out what do I do? Do I step away from it? And I was like I was kind of in my head a bit and just at the scene.
Speaker 2:How big was the community at this point? Oh, probably a thousand or so people a thousand people across the uk, and now you have the us as well yes, yeah so no.
Speaker 1:No, the chapters came after covid. Fine so, but during that covid 2021 period, five years in, I was like is this the time for me to step away, because I've been doing this thing for five years and like I want to do other things right if you'd stepped away, would it have survived? Would it have survived? Probably not probably not.
Speaker 2:I thought for the longest time when I think muslimic makers, I just think you yeah you know and I think that's a real thing for a founder is like at what point does this become bigger than me?
Speaker 1:I think that's like a real milestone yeah, yeah, and I think at that time I was just very confused, um, and I thought I may want to do other things. And then I remember I had this like goodbye speech written like to, to like say, at the five-year impact report, which was like again, covid, zoom, zoom, online thing, yeah, and I was like and then the night before I just changed my mind. I just changed my mind I was just like no, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Something just entered my heart and I was like no, I think I need to still stick at it so you did the whole wall for wall street literally I was like I had it all written, etc. Then I did it and then but this is all from my love, because I think I was either early pregnant or I found out I was pregnant and then you know how kids always bring breast things and then, out of nowhere, I had a random private donor come my way for mm because of the five-year impact report.
Speaker 1:Somebody sent it to somebody and, all of a way, I had a random private donor come my way for mm because of the five-year impact report. Somebody sent it to somebody and all of a sudden, I actually got a tranche of funding which was at the time that I needed it the most can you say how much the funding was?
Speaker 1:it was in a couple of couple of thousands, like significant enough significant enough for me to hire an admin person or somebody because, like it's up until this point, it was five years in. It was fully volunteer run, right, so it was all just people putting their backs in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I wanted to ask you this question. Like I've just had my second child and you just found out you were pregnant. I I've spoken to other parents in this space but do you sometimes get to a point where you almost start to resent that startup life and that startup grind. Yeah, a bit, because it's taking you away from almost the reason you're doing all of this, because it's the life that you want to build and it's taking you. Was that starting to happen? Were you worried about?
Speaker 1:yeah, 100. I think that was definitely something I was like super worried about and I was super like okay, like community work is exhausting, very emotional it's very exhausting.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot um it. You give a lot right you. You give a lot in that sense, um, and it takes a lot of you and your energy and everything that kind of comes with that. Yeah, but Allah provides right and, like I said, like getting that was just one of those moments where I'm like, okay, I can hire, I can hire help, and it's great because I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have my baby towards the end of this year, I'll have a bit of help and support. This thing can still survive. Right, like I'm the things that maybe I was doing that nobody else would do, because I'm a founder, you know, I can now hire, I can outsource or I can get somebody to do those.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 1:And I think that was a significant moment, because then, once COVID was lifted, events were back and all of a sudden, people wanted events.
Speaker 2:And that's when Zahid came into the picture. That brings us very nicely on to the second thing, because all of this Islamic Makers, it was completely for the community. It was not being monetized. You weren't making any money from it. Muslim Tech Fest is not that weren't making any money from it. Muslim Tech Fest is not that. So what is Muslim Tech Fest?
Speaker 1:because I think that's how a lot of people globally now are knowing who you are. Yeah, exactly so. Muslim Tech Fest is ultimately a celebration of Muslim Tech talent on a very big kind of conference festival like level. And I always say Muslim Tech Fest. If you've known my story then you can see how it makes sense. But other people will see it as an overnight success. Um, but ultimately it's just like it's an evolution of of my work and like how it kind of came to being was through Zahid, because Zahid then started to lead our London chapter so Zahid, for people who don't know, is a very successful founder in his own right, co-founder of Anteria, which is a big uh, silicon Valley backed uh starter series a.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've raised tens of millions now marshalla, um, but he approached you because presumably he was part of muslimic makers.
Speaker 1:He was one of the volunteers, yeah, he was part of our muslimic makers kind of voluntary leadership team. He then started to um lead on the london events. Once covid was over, he started to put on the london events. And then he's like, like at that time, um, he was kind of in event tech at the time, so he was going to a lot of event, festivals and things like that. And then he said, arfa, like you'd be, do this thing on a very small scale, I think we should do something called like muslim tech fest and already bought the domain. And he basically just said, like I think we should do this thing really. And I'm just like, okay, like fine, like let's do it, like let's see, let's see where we can land with it. And then, um, so I started working on it, I think during my maternity, and then, um, we executed the first event, which was at the royal institution, so that was 400 person event. When I'd just gotten back, um, that was 2022 20.
Speaker 1:Where are we now? No, it's 2024 now, this year, right, yes, so it was 2023, 2020 yeah, you're right, it was 2023 yes, I remember.
Speaker 2:I was working from the Techstars off because we'd just gone through the Techstars program. I remember looking it up, all the stuff and we really wanted to be a sponsor as well, I think. But I think there was like a whole thing about FinTechs with that one. But that looked amazing because suddenly you're stood in a hall where people like Michael Faraday had presented their findings and again.
Speaker 1:They've never had muslims come through the building before right.
Speaker 2:So what was that like?
Speaker 1:it was. It was phenomenal, like. Again, it felt like a real. I guess it was historical. Right, it was a very historical moment to all of a sudden to have in such a place like the royal institution I felt like it really like created the mark and gained that sense of togetherness on such a bigger scale, right, I always look. I've looked back on our first event and to me that was just a muslim makers event on steroids, right, because we were already doing events. We were doing events up to 100, 150 people. It was just normal for us to do those kind of events. Then to step it up a bit to 400, you're like all right, cool, right thank you for listening to muslim money talk.
Speaker 2:if you like what you've heard so far, you might be interested in checking out what we do at Kestrel, the Muslim Money app. Kestrel is a service that helps Muslims who want to grow their wealth without having to compromise, whether it's on their belief or user experience or price. I founded Kestrel because of how fed up I was at how poor Islamic financial services were in this country. Often people didn't use them because of how bad the user experience or customer service and indeed, how high in price they were. So Kestrel was the answer to that.
Speaker 2:If you download the Kestrel app today, it can help you by creating a budgeting plan. Plug in whatever bank account you have and it will create an auto budget just for you. You can then tell us what goals you're saving for, and we'll save towards them automatically into pots and then, crucially, link you towards Sharia compliant investment and savings products as well. So download Kestrel today and try it out for yourself. Now back to the podcast. So the difference is Muslimic Makers was helping and inspiring and helping aspiring people to get into it. Muslim Tech Fest is a celebration of the people already out there, and I think I heard an interview with you somewhere where you said you were really inspired by the golden age of Islam where suddenly Muslims back then were responsible for they were at the forefront of engineering and medicine and all these sorts of scientific discoveries which people don't really consider the Islamic world in that same kind of vein anymore.
Speaker 2:Was was that really kind of yeah, definitely I.
Speaker 1:I think it's just recognizing that, yeah, we are the best talent, um, and it's a lot of it, I think, also comes down to our faith and the fact that we put everything into it, put us on into it and we put. You know, it's not just for this world, it's for the hereafter too, and if you do it with kind of both things in mind, that, in a sense, you can excel to the, to the maximum right.
Speaker 2:So what kind of things happened at the first?
Speaker 1:yeah. So the first one was very simple. It was literally just one track. We had about, you know, a few sponsors just outside with with a few stalls, but it was literally one track, just a whole bunch of talks. We did an open call, and one thing I love doing about open calls we're doing it again for Muslim Tech Fest for next year as well is it allows us to go outside of our bubble, right, because I've been in this Muslim tech ecosystem world for ages, but there's still people I don't know and there's still people that don't know me, right. So actually, when you do things like an open call and make it almost like a fair opportunity for everybody to kind of put their hat in the ring, right, it just allows you to kind of discover more and more people and like more and more talent.
Speaker 1:I think muslim it made because I think was always quite good at that, because even back in the days, you know, we had the likes of on fido back in 2016, to that you know now they're the biggest x one of the biggest massive exits.
Speaker 1:Exactly right we had people like shaz from us, like again very, very successful muslim tech company. So I think like, uh, you know, we kind of always had a knack of like spotting muslim talent before it became big and and I think a part of mtf is also still doing that as well and spotting that muslim talent.
Speaker 2:That will go on well, let's hope so, because we were one of your proud sponsors you are this year as well. Yeah, and can I just say it was um it really changed the course of what we were doing at.
Speaker 2:Kestrel because what we did was we did two things. We had one of the stalls, so there were like a thousand people who came to the London Muslim Tech Fest. A lot of them passed by our stall. We had a big touchscreen where people could play around with the app and see the new features we were launching. But we also did a roast my app session, where, you know, 100 people came into the room.
Speaker 2:We showcased and demoed our app and people could literally just roast it, you know, say what they liked and what they didn't like, and people were very honest with their feedback, which is great, because for the longest time now at Kestrel, we've been focused on the B2B helping big banks who want to better serve Muslim customers to digitize and build their solutions out. But then we really saw there was an opportunity with our consumer app, where we have a few tens of thousands of customers already. But we thought I think, similar to what you were thinking with Islamic Makers could we monetize this? Is there something that people think they could pay for in this? What things would people like?
Speaker 2:And the biggest thing that we found through the survey that we ran is that Muslims, whilst they are interested in Islamic finance. Right now especially, they care a lot more about boycotting and how they spend their money, as opposed to just how they grow their money in line with their beliefs. So the big thing that we're launching is actually a boycotting tool which, through open banking, you can see all of your transactions and see how much of your salary is actually going towards boycotting companies that you should be boycotting, as opposed to those that you should be, which are divesting from those activities.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that all came through muslim tech yeah, no, it's so exciting and I think for me like those moments and those kind of, because sometimes people really downplay events, some people, people are just people to people, just networking.
Speaker 1:I've had that a lot yes I've had a lot of people say stuff like that to me and and it's very frustrating because People who went to the event no, just generally, let that be Muslim makers, let that be whatever it is right. Maybe it's a Muslim woman who knows right, but often it's very kind of like.
Speaker 2:One of the complaints I hear a lot about these sorts of events especially when it's Muslim events is that it always turns into Marriage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a matchmaking thing. Oh, now people, people have said to me, why doesn't mm do like? And then I'm like guys, guys, if I do that, then then I'm done, I'm done. Just tell me, you're looking, I'll keep you in mind, but I, I can't officially facilitate a rishna thing under mm.
Speaker 2:It's not gonna happen so so london, you did it 2023, you did it 2024. What did it look like? How successful was it?
Speaker 1:so obviously, 2023 was the first one sold out. Um, again, the first event, like from a money perspective, was just like I said, it was mvp, right, like everything was mvp, we got the right partners. The ticket was almost like a nominal price. It was literally nothing and for us it was just about testing the concept that are people willing to come to a thing like this? And then, when the noise was created off the back on that on LinkedIn is then when, all of a sudden, we started to get more interest and you know, off the noise, I always feel like Al-Aswadullah sends me like people at the right time. But off that noise, saj approached me, who's head of Manza, which is our marketing brand agency for MTF, and he was like let us take this whole thing and let us just own it.
Speaker 2:So what does a branding agency do exactly?
Speaker 1:yeah. So they basically completely give it life right, give it an identity. So at this point, muslim tech fest is a little canva logo that zahid had like, designed with a little crescent moon over the eye I remember it, yeah right.
Speaker 1:That's all it was. It was part of mm at that point in time it was mvp. Like you've got to do stuff right for them to kind of take it and literally almost bring it to the same level as international conference brands out there right, to almost give it its own identity, its own life, its own voice, almost keep that, make it a bit separate from mm as well, so that people can kind of see as m MTF in that sense. And I think that was just like again a huge pivotal moment of having someone like them to come and bet on us as well, to almost be like all right, like we want to work with Muslim brands, we believe in what you're doing. This is going to be beneficial for us. Let's work together and let's build together.
Speaker 1:And I think the build together part like me and Zahid were talking about this as well there's, there's certain people in the community that do this. We feel that with you guys, we feel that with other people that really believe in what we're doing, that almost like let's build together. You know, let that be, they'll invest money or they'll invest their team or whatever there is, that they really believe in what we're doing, that they'll find a way to work with us. That is a win-win, and I think that that really took MTF to a different level. So then this year when we did MTF, it was like, right, we're gonna go big, we're gonna go thousands of people and I'm just sitting there being like, oh my god, we're gonna go thousands. And oh, by the way, the tickets are going to be much more pricier than last year. And I was just like you're telling me we're gonna.
Speaker 2:I remember the secondary market for the tickets this year was getting kind of crazy it was getting crazy.
Speaker 1:But then, to me, right, that proves all my fears. Right, if we're on the money podcast, right, the fact that I was so scared of when our ticket prices first, like initially, went out and I remember there was chatter in the whatsapp group people will be like oh my god, mtf charge you so much. Like you know how. People are right and obviously I'm a person, a community person, I care a lot. It was hard. It was hard for me to kind of see people almost second guessing my intentions in a way, because it kind of felt like that, right, people would be like oh, they used to do free things and now they're doing this. Right, like, all of a sudden, it was like people would like, but we sold out. We sold out three weeks in advance and then there was a secondary market and people made profit on our tickets. So this time around, I'm making sure that I'm creating that remarketing platform, I'm creating that secondary platform, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that's human nature. Everyone complains, everyone wants something for free. And I've definitely been one of those people too, and, like I said, it's took me a long time to get there and you know I was talking to zahid about this of if you look at all of like the yc yeah podcast and motto, people only ascribe value to something if they have to pay for it exactly and if they're getting something for free, they're more likely to not show up and they'll treat it in a very, very different way yeah so psychologically, if you've paid a certain amount for the ticket, you're going to put in more and for a networking event exactly the more you put in, the better networking.
Speaker 1:It becomes this kind of virtual cycle exactly, and I just feel like it all of a sudden. It's not just people coming for a good day, it's actually super high caliber, serious talent, right. So when I'm speaking to potential sponsors or whatever it's like, well, actually people are paying to be here. So if they're paying to be here, there's high intention behind why they are there. So I think that all of that stuff, I think combined, has really changed my mindset to money and kind of how I kind of see money and yeah, that's because I've noticed the pattern throughout our conversation so far is that you're so grateful that you know monza came to you.
Speaker 2:You're so grateful that these companies reached out to you yeah it's amazing to be humble, but also it seems like you always see yourself as very deferral. It's like people are doing you a favor instead of you recognizing them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very true. I had a text message yesterday from a friend who said oh, I hired. That friend of yours told you you should set up a referral system and I said I'd be really rich if I had started that, but I've never been one of those people who took a cut for intros, or you know all of that where do you think that comes from? Where does it come from? I can't be asked to like, manage and track a lot of that stuff um to. It always pays dividends after and I feel like it's paid many, many dividends in me.
Speaker 1:Let that be people's doors, let that be whatever it is. I feel like it just it's. You know your risk is written at the end of the day and if I'm making a connection and you know, business happens or whatever it's kind of written, I'm just the means to it. But somehow in the future that will come back to me twofold, threefold, whatever it is right, there is a place for referrals and all of that kind of stuff. Like totally there is. I just think. For me it's just kind of like I've I've done it now like eight, ten years in. I'm not gonna start now. You know, what I'm gonna do now is I'm just gonna double down on MTF and double down on money making in a different way right
Speaker 1:and, like I said, concept of money making is just. It's took me a very long time because I was so community first and I think it's very important to still be community first but also recognize that there gets a point, and you know, when you're talking about the whole resentment thing and having children and all that stuff. I think, again, my daughter's probably played a part in that right, that realization that what am I doing this for? Yes, I'm, I can keep building for the community, but if it's also not paying any dividends to me or my family, what's the?
Speaker 1:point what's the point?
Speaker 2:right, yeah there's only so much, the ones you can handle like there's only so far you can take it for doing community work without you getting anything back from that.
Speaker 1:So exactly that's what muslim tech fairs represent exactly, and I think for me, having done it for so, so long and so when we did mtf right. So the first one was mvp are people interested? This one this year was simply are people going to pay at the, at the price where it's going to start making money? And our me me, as I'd had like a revenue goal that we set ourselves and we said if we don't hit that revenue goal, we're not doing this thing again. Can you say what it was?
Speaker 2:um, but, but you hit it, but we hit it right, just with london uh, yeah, in london, right.
Speaker 1:So so we knew that we needed to hit a certain amount, and if we did not hit that certain amount, we're not doing mm all over again basically in the nicest of ways, right. So that was your one metric for success, the revenues, presumably revenue and obviously feedback and all of the usual stuff and obviously all the hype and everything that followed. But ultimately, for me to pour my heart into it and, to be frank, I took a risk, actually because I quit my day job back in March.
Speaker 1:That was even before you went full-time yes, I went full-time before the MVP yeah, well, before the second one.
Speaker 2:So before we hit that revenue goal this year that was the risk.
Speaker 1:Right, that was the risk I was willing to take, because I was like I got to the point with every and my last job was in the VC space and all the stuff that was happening in Palestine. I started to feel a bit funny about it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, let's, let's talk about that. So at this point I really wanted to get onto this you were working for a vc, yep at the time.
Speaker 2:Yep and october 7th had happened and I think a lot of us in the startup space suddenly felt very on edge because either vcs were resoundingly silent, yeah, or they were really coming out in favor of one way and some people saying the most disgusting things on on x, on linkedin, which you were, like, not afraid to call attention to at all. Yeah, I think I was only hearing about it from you, yeah, that this was happening, and thank you know, thank god, thank you for yeah shining a light on that.
Speaker 2:But how did that make you feel?
Speaker 1:working for a vc. It was interesting, so, yeah, so I was working basically for limited partner, the people who give money to vcs. So I, when when the seventh happened, I was actually on holiday, pakistan, like before I go to my holiday, I'm like this is a great job, it's three days a week. This is perfect as a working mom, like very happy, by the way, like in my job, work-life balance mainly working from home, going to so this was a fund that gives money to venture capital yeah, exactly to invest in.
Speaker 2:To invest in to start, exactly, yeah, and this was a government fund.
Speaker 1:It was an impact fund.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So they would mainly fund VC. They fund lots of different things, but one of their arms was funding VCs that were investing in impact, basically.
Speaker 2:And that's what you.
Speaker 1:So I was managing a community on behalf of them, which was an impact VC community.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So these were a bunch of vcs who supposedly care about people and planet.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what was your role? So?
Speaker 1:my role was community manager, so I was putting on events for them, educational staff, managing the slack community newsletter, all of that stuff right was it muslim focused or?
Speaker 1:no, no. So it was very generic, like a generic, and the reason I took this job, by the way so I took this job straight after my maternity leave decided not to go back to my government role. Uh, because I, like this was an intersection of my passions. It was like full circle right. I was in the impact space 10 years ago with discoverables, I had done VC stuff with through Ada as a scout and stuff like that, so all of a sudden, this role was perfect as community management. It was like a massive crossover of like everything.
Speaker 1:I've done and like lo and behold, my team was great, like that year was really really good, loved the job. But when all of that stuff started to happen, it was really weird being in a space that supposedly cared about people planet, but those people, if they look like me, they don't really care about them. And that's when I started to just not be motivated in my job anymore. Right, I started to feel a bit like icky and you know, I was seeing stuff, not in my own community but generally in the VC space, right, things, people were saying things and just stuff that just started to make my like stomach really turn. What?
Speaker 2:was the worst thing you saw, and just stuff.
Speaker 1:That just started to make my like stomach really turn. What was the worst thing you saw? I think there was one specifically around uh, palestinian women should not have children, or something like that, because they would have terrorists. They were born terrorists, or something like that.
Speaker 2:It was something like that like just, oh, really disgusting, disgusting things and, to be clear, these were from people quite high up in vc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, very high up in VCs and that for me and I started to call it out. And I think the reason I started to call it out because I thought you know what? I have other VCs that follow me. They need to see this stuff. Two, I had a privilege in a way, because I had Muslim makers. I almost became a voice of the community.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So people couldn't come after me because it's like if they were to come after me I'd be like yeah, I'm just voicing for my community. So almost I used that privilege that I had of being a founder of a community and we ran a survey. Actually I remember we like we ran a survey just to see how people were feeling and stuff like that. And then obviously I was starting to like call out a lot of these kind of like VCs and stuff because I just kind of felt I needed to just like throw a grenade and run, like you know, I just kind of had to like keep chipping at it and stuff and almost start creating a bit of an uncomfortable environment. You know was there any backlash?
Speaker 1:I had very open, honest conversation um about my work, my works. I've never called it out, I know I think they. We did have a conversation about my linkedin post, but more in this in the way of are you okay, like it was more oh, that's good it was more in the way of are you okay?
Speaker 1:and they they also just said you know, we're not gonna be, we're not gonna, like you know, censor you or anything like that. You know, it's just kind of like it's fine, like it's great, yeah, so. And then obviously there were still internal things going on that we still had to call out internally in terms of you know, the response to this compared to the response for Ukraine. There were things that internally we were where we were having to kind of dabble in and stuff. But I think, generally speaking, like my managers and stuff were quite supportive and it was more from a place of concern for me to be like are you okay, like you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:But I think all of those kind of things I think just started to be like I wasn't motivated anymore. I sat down with my husband and I was just like I think it's time I'd like double down on me, I bet on myself, and that could be MTF, that could be having a freelance career in community building. I just don't know what it is. But I'm not feeling I can carry on with this job anymore. I'm just not motivated. I just hate it.
Speaker 1:Every day I'm waking up and I'm just like, oh, this thing I'm having to do serve these people that don't care, right, I knew things with MTF would start to pick up. I had a three-month notice period so, yeah, I finished around Ramadan time and then it was just all guns blazing till June and I just knew that I was like, okay, I'm gonna give myself this time. I know, by the summer I've got a certain level of income that's equivalent on my day job. So I had like set myself a goal and I was like, by the summer I need to earn whatever I was on my day job. Let that be through freelancing, let that be through MTF, let that be through whatever it is, because if I hit that then I'm not in a loose position. Right, I've got nothing to lose at that point and that's quite a target.
Speaker 1:You say, yeah, it's like three months so 2024, you quit your job in post-ramadan yeah march.
Speaker 2:Mtf london was in june yeah and you get three months, I'm gonna make up the equivalent of the salary I'm sacrificing yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think for me things again this is al-usmanthala provides right, because I remember I had there was a piece of freelance work I think I did around ramadan time or something like that that almost was like the equivalent of like two months of salary or something like that, right. So then all of a sudden it's like the money that I was going to lose I had already earned. So it was just kind of one of those things.
Speaker 2:It shows it was the right decision.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly when, again, like things just fall into your plate. So the thing is, it's kind of like the luxury was right. When me and my husband sat down and we did the sums, we were like, ok, we could just about manage. My money is often the luxury money, so it's the holidays, the extra stuff, the fun stuff, all of that stuff. So cutting back on that wasn't going to make us lose a roof over our head, right? So I still had that privilege to take that risk. So even if it took me longer, it would have been OK. But I so, even if it took me longer, it would have been okay.
Speaker 1:But I think for me mentally, as somebody who's quite independent and has been earning my own money for since I was 16, for me it was very important that I, like start earning my own money again. So I just knew that I just needed to start earning some form of income. Let that be through coaching or whatever. It is all the different things that I do just to be like, yeah, by this point, like I'll have, I'll start earning again.
Speaker 2:Um, and I've got this time to figure it out it's such a strong reaction which I think so many of us felt like, so disillusioned by the industries that we worked in, who. It was literally what you said earlier that, okay, you, you care about the world and climate and impact, until it comes to someone who looks like me or believes the same kind of thing as me, and then you're very happy to turn your back on that yeah and that was enough for you to just throw it all in yeah your job and go off and do your own thing it was time to double down on my own community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, because there's nobody. There's that whole thing. I say right about build your own tables. And that for me, was the that moment where I was just like man, no one's gonna, no one like it, doesn't matter how much I didn't so just so people don't, so in case people don't know about that so that's we should have a seat at the table.
Speaker 2:But why not build our own, exactly our own table, exactly?
Speaker 1:exactly and I think for me, knowing how hard I've worked over the last 10 years, to almost realize it still doesn't matter. It still doesn't matter I've worked so hard but I'm still going to be an other right, and that realization was very emotional. I remember again like I know internally, like when we in my last workplace we had this whole chat and I remember emotionally crying about that concept. Just to be, like you know, 10 years in I'm still an other like it's.
Speaker 2:It's a weird one. I was, um. I was thinking about this last night because there was this isophobia Awareness Month right now in November. I was at this event last night with Baroness Saeed Awarsi, who was talking about this, and she talks about how, when it comes to Islamophobia, when she was growing up in the 70s in like Yorkshire Muslims at that time, it wasn't really about your faith. It was entirely about your race.
Speaker 2:And there was this whole idea of you know, packy bashing and all of this, but it was all about the color of your skin. And it wasn't until post 9-11 and 7-7 and these kinds of events that suddenly our faith was much more pushed into the spotlight it's kind of our generation, yeah like out of interest, the reason you guys called yourself muslimic makers. Was that a reference to?
Speaker 1:the meme. Yes, it's really funny because I feel like the new generation. But yeah, it was that meme. It was that um edl skinhead guy who goes muslimic ray guns, yeah, muslimic ray guns, and it was just like a really tongue-in-cheek kind of way of like owning our, owning it in a way to our gen z listeners just look it up.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you're too definitely too young to know what that is. But yeah, it was a, it was a funny thing at the time um gosh. So, but the question I want to drive to is do you think diversity and initiative in these big organizations is real, or is it more like lip service?
Speaker 1:I think it depends on who's running it right. Yeah, I think I know of very powerful people, muslims, doing dni stuff within these organizations and they're in it organizations and they're in it for properly, right, they're in it for properly and they're making sure that money goes to other organizations, you know, etc. So I think it really depends really. I think sometimes, yes, it can often just be lip service, and this is why I think it's really important that you know as much as I harp on about build your own table. I think it's really important that you know as much as I harp on about build your own table.
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to have a seat on the table too, because I feel like those Muslims that do may work in the Googles, the Amazons, the Metas, all of that stuff, right, have a lot of people have criticized them. A lot of people said, oh, how can you be Muslim? You know all of that project numbers, this, that stuff. You have no idea what battle they are fighting internally. Their voice voice is louder than your voice on the outside right, because they have access to stakeholders that you don't have access to.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:And if you start to isolate those people or if you say, oh no, you can't come to our event or we're not going to co-host an event at their place or whatever it is, and you're not going to collaborate with the Muslim networks there or whatever, it becomes hard and those people are, like I said, like they have access to things and sometimes, like you know, the, the boycott movement, I think, is it's not as black and white, um, and it's it's. It's almost like there's different elements of it and I think, ultimately, like, some people will take a Robin Hood effect to it. Some people will completely be black and white about it, which is completely fine too. Some people would have a middle approach to it, right, and I think, ultimately, like, everybody has to play their part, but you also need to understand the nuance to it as well. So I think that, for me, is, like, really important because, like I said, those Muslims are doing everything they can to make sure that the voices get heard internally.
Speaker 2:They're putting the pressure on internally, they are making sure money gets funneled into our organizations, you know it's a hell of an important thing because if you think about it, compared to starting your own thing and raising money for it and building it all up and becoming an organization we're like five years in this. You've been doing Islamic makers for eight years it can be a lot easier doing that inside an organization. We're like five years in this.
Speaker 2:You've been doing Islamic Makers for eight years. It can be a lot easier doing that inside an organization, climbing up the ranks and trying to affect change from the inside. Yeah, so yeah. No, I mean I think I don't agree at all with the people who bash those people who work in senior places like Google, Amazon.
Speaker 2:And if I had to look back on it, if it wasn't for the institutions that I worked at and studied at, many of which were silent during everything that happened in the past year, a lot of people wouldn't have looked twice at Kestrel and what I was starting, or when I was fundraising.
Speaker 1:It's hard, right, it's really hard because people won't pay attention to you unless you have those logos back to you Exactly. But then you know, those same people will then also criticize you for having those logos.
Speaker 2:And it's very.
Speaker 1:You can't win and like. For mtf this year I was criticized. Um for partnering with organizations I was criticized. I had a sponsor drop out on me because of a pro-palestinian stance on the tiktok.
Speaker 2:That was found you know really, yeah, yeah, all this drama behind there was all this drama a week till mtf.
Speaker 1:A week till mtf gosh, so not not the thing I want to be dealing with, but literally, yeah, the day rafa was burning, I literally had a sponsor drop out on us because of pro-palestinian stuff that they don't want to be seen to be taking a political stance, because the founder had a political opinion, and but at the same time, I was also criticized by the muslim community for not being pro-palestinian enough.
Speaker 2:So it's hard so obviously you can't say who the sponsor is, but if people find out, they find out. Um, so, coming back onto muslim tech fest, I really, really want to talk about this because obviously london was such a success, yeah, and then, not three months later, you found yourself doing the same thing, but in san francisco yeah what on earth was that like?
Speaker 1:uh, probably the craziest summer that I've had. Uh, so that summer, so yeah, an opportunity basically presented itself to for us to go do it there and we always knew we wanted to do sf, but I generally thought it would be like a next year plan. And then opportunity presented itself this year and we were like, oh, let's just go do it?
Speaker 2:what was the opportunity?
Speaker 1:someone reached out yeah, so, um, the muslim tech week, gmw, they were putting on muslim tech week and then we were just like, okay, like this might be worth doing it, and then, yeah, a bunch of connections, we managed to find a venue, you know so a separate organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gmw, so that's global muslim, muslim workation.
Speaker 1:So they had muslim tech week kind of was going. They were looking to do some kind of Muslim tech week and they were like you guys should come do Muslim tech fest. And we were like all right, cool, like let's figure it out. And then, yeah, we just had the craziest, like three months pulling at an event, like literally planning an event 5,000 miles away, um. So I had a lot of late nights that summer, a lot of late nights, the time zone and just everything, of course. Yeah, how did it?
Speaker 2:compare to london, because I feel like over there the startup scene is just on steroids yeah, the money flows more easily.
Speaker 2:I had this big debate in just last week's episodes with abdul rahman, the founder of pillars, so check that out. But he was talking about how the muslims there have a much more abundance mindset, whereas compared to the muslims here, where it's all about scarcity. And what he was talking about was every Muslim out there seems to have a side hustle going on or have some sort of an ambition to work in tech or do something in tech and do something on the side, whereas over here it's very rare to find someone like that or outside of this community that you've built, islamic Makers. So did you really notice that firsthand?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so my first experience of san francisco um and like america, I guess was in 2017. I got given a research fellowship to research muslim women in tech research what sorry muslim women in tech oh, okay yeah.
Speaker 1:So I did that, um, and that was, by the way, the first time I like saw. I've met a lot of muslims, and that, by the way, came out of the fact that I couldn't find muslim women for muslim makers right to have. So I was like googling and I'm like, oh, I can see some amazing women in America, I can see some amazing women Pakistan, the UAE. So when I got this opportunity to go there, that exposed me to amazing Muslim women doing incredible things that also were mums, and back then I was like single and just all of a sudden like be, like, oh, I could have it all. You know, that was a real, like life-changing moment for me, right to also think, okay, I could have it all.
Speaker 1:So I think back then I realized, like the thing is, though and I think often people don't realize this that American Muslims, or especially SF Muslims, are a generation ahead, and what I mean by that is their parents were white collar workers, so they were brought to America, worked for the's, the cisco's, because they were already educated, right, so almost they already have an a generation. So the next generation is like our kids, basically, so they already had a lot of access to opportunities and stuff like that. So the fun thing about sf is like you'll meet an uncle who's like exited his company, right, because just that was just the darn thing. Like you meet so many random uncles that have done that and now their kids are obviously doing amazing things and stuff like that. So I feel like the culture and the access to opportunity is very different there, but also they're just a generation ahead of us, so our kids are going to have that opportunity basically going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's pretty much the way. To sum it up, I've got cousins out there and it's just the the communities. I went out there in 2022 for work and just seeing how much wealth was in that area and how much flows through the mosques I'd never been to a mosque where they have an entrepreneurship program. Yes, and every sunday this was at west valley mosques.
Speaker 1:So shout out to uh reshma auntie yeah, yeah, reshma is the one that I was talking about, the mom the mom who inspired me there you go.
Speaker 2:No, I know her very much. She's a family friend yeah, oh, no way yes, yeah, met her out there, so she took us around to like zaytuna took her to a masjid which I think is west valley.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rishma did the same for me. Back to them. Yeah, so we pitched to their community.
Speaker 2:Off to fudger yeah, it was crazy it was crazy, yeah, um gosh. So I guess that comes to my next question and feel free not to answer it. Um, what are the biggest problems muslim women find in this area in particular? Because you you said something earlier you didn't know if it was possible to have it all yeah and did that mean this side of your life which you felt was more traditional? Yeah, becoming like a mom and a wife and a homemaker and the other side, which was you know success in your career.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. So so, like I said, that America trip seeing people like Rishma people, seeing other people, other women um, they had supportive husbands and I feel like that's not often talked about Um and I feel that's a major part of it, right, a major, a major part of um, just like you probably have a very supportive wife behind you, right.
Speaker 1:I do like like often it's the partners that pay a major part. So as a single Muslim woman, like you know, not often meeting good Muslim men back then, it was very like to see then actually that working and actually saying, oh, actually you, you can meet nice guys and then have kids and they can support you and all of that kind of stuff. All of a sudden it was just like, okay, it's possible and you start to believe it, you start to have a level of optimism but do you think that's the difficulty is in finding that partner who's that supportive?
Speaker 2:because I think not speaking for my entire gender here, but I think a lot of guys are quite intimidated by a high-powered success.
Speaker 1:I used to get that all the time, or for you're very intimidating, right. I used to get that a lot, a lot, a lot and, um, and I, and it's to this day for all my girlfriends, all of them stuff it is the thing. But you know, they're all, mashallah, very successful, doing amazing stuff, and people find that intimidating, right, they'll find that intimidating. They shouldn't but they do and often I think it's. I remember, like when me and my husband had this conversation early on, like before we got married, around ambition and we had a mutual friend and he said, oh, our friend's very ambitious, like you know, she's very ambitious, not in a bad way, just a general way, and we talked about what ambition means and I said ambition can mean working hard, um, because you want to have a family and kids ambition can come in many different ways in in that sense, right so me, wanted to be an entrepreneur, etc.
Speaker 1:it was always with that end goal in mind that I can be a master of my own time, right so? So I think often like people will see ambition as just like working all the time. And and yes, I am technically working still all the time, but it's different, it's on my terms, it's how I do it, how I do it with my childcare, et cetera, et cetera, and it's just a huge part of me.
Speaker 1:I generally don't know how to chill. So you know it's fairly normal for, like the TV to be on in the background, me doing some admin at nine o'clock, my husband playing his video game, like that's what our evenings look like, but that's just how I am in that sense and that's completely fine as well. And I think you know that setup like works really well for us because my husband has the stable job and stuff which allows me to be more of the riskier one for sure and I can kind of go out and be risked, but I think that plays a huge part.
Speaker 1:You know the fact that I think I think women need supportive husbands, that that plays a huge part. But then also, when it comes to kids and family and and that kind of stuff, I think I'm not, you know, I'm not building a massive growing tech VC backed company or anything like that. I'm not also at the stage of my life where I could and I've got to recognize that and I know I know women who are moms, by the way, that do and they are incredible at what they do. But also I think you have different flavors in life and you've got to recognize what works for you and what doesn't, and and and and sometimes, you know, do it like, like it's hard, it's really hard and you've just got to know you've got it. So if you are a mom that's building a VC tech company, that's fine.
Speaker 1:But also you've got to recognize there's going to be certain sacrifices that come with it and as long as you have your supportive structure behind you 100 you but that's one of the reasons I feel like we sometimes don't see that many muslim women vc backed founders is because of this life the idea of balance, etc.
Speaker 2:So can women have it all then?
Speaker 1:you can have it all, but at different times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what does that mean?
Speaker 1:it basically means you know there'll be times where you have to take a break in your career. There's been, there has to be a time when you take it slow. You know, right now I'm in the phase of of having a young kid, growing my family, all of that stuff. You know, who knows, 10 years from now, whatever I might be like, all right, cool, I'm ready to grow a really massive company. No, I don't want to, I just want to chill. But but do you?
Speaker 2:feel sorry.
Speaker 1:This is getting more personal than we usually get in these podcasts.
Speaker 2:But do you feel like a tension? Do you feel a tension between your career ambitions and wanting to go like, oh, we're going to go 110 on muslim tech fest and we're going to do it in San Francisco and Boston and Chicago and London and Manchester and Birmingham. We're going to go every other week doing something. And then the other side of you, which is I want to be there for my husband and daughter and see them growing up.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like that push and pull or do you feel like, okay, now is the time I want to spend on family? We're going to be doing this and then I'll look at the ambition.
Speaker 1:I think there is a tension, but this is where your co-founder plays a massive part, right, Like what bits can they do, et cetera. And you know there's been frank conversations that I've had about, you know, if I was to grow my family, what does that look like and what does that mean for the business? And how do we make sure we have the right things in place right, so that if I needed to take that time out, I would be able to, and I think that's really important. But at the same time, like you, can still have the ambition. But then you've got to then also think about how you're going to build something sustainably, and I think that's really, really important.
Speaker 1:So it is hard because it is. You know it's not one of them. I remember, man, I remember this well actually, when I had the early newborn, et cetera. I felt newborn, etc. I felt like muslimic makers started to fall behind and I felt like a lot of other communities etc came more into foray and mashallah. They're all doing very, very well like dean developers I guess all, lots of, lots of other communities right.
Speaker 1:And I remember, as a mom with a newborn, as a leader, being like, oh, like I'm falling really behind yeah and that was very hard, very hard because I was competing against not competing. But you know, we were all in the similar space, but they were all male, men, men yeah, right men that didn't have the same amount of responsibilities as I did, that weren't looking after little new. Do you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, to an extent, muslim makers was your first baby yeah, well, second I get that because that was hard.
Speaker 1:I think that for me was the really hard point, because I just felt like I couldn't compete on the same level as as men and that for me, I think, is something that I do recognize. That can get really hard when you are trying to then balance like life and stuff but the thing that you said, having that supportive partner I think it's okay.
Speaker 2:I mean, as a man it's to a lesser extent. But when my first child was born, when my son was born two years ago, I remember sitting in the hospital holding him in one hand. My wife had given birth like four hours before and I was reviewing a term sheet on my phone to sign this thing, and then we went and started on this accelerator and I didn't take any paternity leave and I just felt like I needed to be this almost superhuman, like to my team and to shareholders and say, nah, it's fine, right, like my wife gave birth and I'm going to work the same same day. But I really at the time didn't appreciate the impact that would have at home that.
Speaker 2:I wasn't there for all of those things and you know my wife was struggling with that newborn and I thought, no, it's fine, like all my family's there, it's okay, but showing up matters showing up showing up matters.
Speaker 1:But also, if your wife was you, she wouldn't be able to do that. She wouldn't be able to have a kid and and, and you know, be back in the office the next day you know, so. So again right, like biologically, like it's just not, it's a reality it's the reality, saying that with myself, I delete myself off the muslimic makersers WhatsApp group.
Speaker 1:when I had Dua, I lasted 10 weeks and then I was like, can you let me in? Because I needed something. I literally needed something. I needed to like get my brain like busy again beyond, like the baby stuff.
Speaker 2:That was me 10 weeks, though you managed 10 weeks I managed 10 weeks.
Speaker 1:10 weeks where I was just like I'm not going to do anything like related to MM.
Speaker 2:You know, I was just like I'm not gonna do anything like related to mm. You know, obviously I was already off from my day job. I'm not gonna do it. But then 10 weeks in, I was like, right, I need to start doing things again. I managed my team, my second was born a week, one week ago. Yeah, eight days ago, and my team literally forced me to say personality good. But yeah, thank god I did, but I just managed seven days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here I am, I'm back at it, but yeah, I think also I think that's more to recognize as well that everybody is different and like we shouldn't look down on women. You know, I know women that went back to to their work after you know, 10 weeks, three months, whatever it is, etc.
Speaker 1:Like, like I said, my thing was very low-key in that sense, but you know it's different from for sure for everybody your circumstance, your mentality, your support system whatever it is right it's, it's different and I think now, looking back in hindsight, I'm like actually the newborn phase is actually the easiest to do work, like once you've had the first two weeks of rest and say you've recovered, actually they're just sleeping all the time yeah actually it's easier to do work in those early days, yeah, yeah, when they start like getting up crawling all of that stuff right, I mean, I was
Speaker 1:a late walker but still like it was just one of them things that it's still. It gets harder. So actually, if anyone wants to do work, it's probably better to do it in your new, in their newborn phase yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure they're just sleeping and pooping. Yeah gosh. Well, this got way more into like the parents side. But I hope that appeals to some of the viewers today. Um, arthur, we're right out of time, but thank you so much. Um, if you wanted to wrap up on one point, I guess my question to you is what kind of legacy do you want to leave behind? Whether it's a muslim makers or muslim tech first, or anything else that might come, what's the most important thing for you?
Speaker 1:I think, ultimately, um, I want to build a world where we as a community just keep uplifting each other and we keep connecting and we get rid of any kind of hostilities between us and we actually do collaborate for the sake of collaboration and remember that our risk is our risk and that it's, you know, it's all going to be provided for in the end.
Speaker 2:Amazing Arfa. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:As-salamu alaykum.
Speaker 2:Wa-alaikum-salaam, thank you for listening to the Muslim Money Talk podcast. If you like what you heard, then please subscribe to Muslim Money Talk. Wherever you might have been listening to this, give us a like and share it with someone who you think might be interested. It really, really helps us out. Thank you, as-salamu alaykum, and see you next time.