Muslim Money Talk
Introducing the Muslim Money Talk Podcast, a place for all things Muslim and Money related.
Every week we'll be sitting down with Founders, leaders and industry experts from across multiple disciplines to discuss lessons learned, mistakes made and most importantly 'How they did it?'.
Brought to you by Kestrl: The Muslim Money App, software to help Muslims grow their wealth without compromise. Find out more here: https://kestrl.io/
Muslim Money Talk
Ask A Mufti: Mortgages, TikTok Fatwas & Productivity Hacks| Mufti Faraz Adam - Muslim Money Talk #30
A very special guest for episode 30- our very own shariah scholar, Mufti Faraz Adam!
Mufti Faraz shares his views on the state of Islamic Finance and weighs in on current debates. From TikTok Fatwas and productivity hacks to how to be more like the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ when doing buiness.
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00:00 – Opening
03:25 – Being A Lifelong Learner
04:25 – What is a Mufti?
08:39 – Emotional Burdens of being a Mufti
12:34 – Education and Personal Goal
17:49 – Changing Hate into Love: Learning from Enemies
23:36 – Why Focus on Islamic Finance?
30:07 – Finding Your Why
35:54 – Fatwa controversies & social media misinformation.
45:14 – Is Islamic finance truly halal?
51:45 – Achieving a Prophetic Level of Islamic Finance
57:15 – Should Islamic Finance be used by Non-Muslims?
1:02:37 – How the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ did Business
1:13:13 – The 4 AM productivity rule
1:18:51 – Q&A: Could a Waqf Resolve Home Financing?
1:20:02 - Q&A: What Qualifications are Best for an Islamic Finance Career?
1:27:52 - Q&A: Is Sukuk Permissible?
1:33:01 – Final thoughts on the industry’s future.
The biggest risk to Islam and finance today is ignorance. We're living in an environment which is naturally a riba-based system. That's the reality we're living in, but it's absolutely fine. Things take time to grow. As long as we're within the boundaries of fiqh, the product is sharia compliant. We want simply more products. Right now, I think we're still. It's not going to happen overnight. Rome was not built overnight. Medina was not built overnight. Medina was not built overnight. This is what I believe every single entrepreneur, founder, CEO in the UK of an Islamic finance firm you all must do. It's a responsibility on your shoulders. This is what I truly believe To come together, put all your differences aside, work together to have a roadmap that this is what we want to build. If we can't provide a product to a person who has a circumstantial, contextual need, we failed as an industry.
Speaker 2:Before we begin, we actually noticed only about 10% of you are subscribed to the podcast. So if you like what you're listening to and you want to hear more from us and see more things Muslim and money related, then please consider subscribing and, of course, leaving this episode a like and share it with your friends, leave us a comment or a review, because it really really does help us out and help more people to find us. Thank you. Now back to the show. As-salamu alaykum and welcome to episode number 30 of Muslim Money Talk. And what better way to celebrate this milestone than having our very own Sharia scholar on the podcast? The man, the myth, the Mufti Faraz.
Speaker 1:Adham.
Speaker 2:Mufti Faraz Adham. Welcome so much to the show. As-salamu alaykum, it's a pleasure to be with you all today and you also might be wondering why my brother, Ali Siddiqui, you might recognize from a couple of other episodes before, where he interviewed me and I interviewed him what he's doing here. Well, Ali, do you want to explain why you're on?
Speaker 3:the podcast? Absolutely so. As those eagle-eyed viewers might remember from my episode, not only is Mufti Faraz a Sharia scholar at Cashflow, he's also my teacher, and I had the honor and privilege of studying with him for the grand sacks of the four years in the end, both through IFG's Majalna course and then subsequently the Messengers Money Morals course, which we can explore in more depth in the podcast too. But I was asked to come and here I am.
Speaker 1:No, I think I really wanted to see you. It's been a while since I've seen you. It has been a while it was my humble request to Ali that please do come and be a pleasure to spend some time with you.
Speaker 2:I think it didn't take a lot to drag Ali. I got it. Muthu Faraz, there's a lot that we want to discuss with you, but first of all, how?
Speaker 1:was Ali as a student, you know. I'll be honest with you, ali was one of those students whose absence was felt, and I think that says it all, because it was an online class, so it's not even something which is physical where you can see somebody missing, but from amongst the students, I think one is all the students were brilliant, but then there were some who are always eager, participating, asking questions, probing. I think Ali fit that category, so it was a real pleasure to have that engagement. What I love is when students take that courage to ask questions, to engage, not just to be spoon-fed and just keep listening. Learning has to be a dialogue and I think with Ali, I really had that chance and privilege to have a dialogue, an intellectual dialogue.
Speaker 2:Man, I wasn't expecting it to be such an ego boost for you.
Speaker 3:It's a good way to start. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Marshall. There's a lot we can go into, so you're probably one of the most accomplished individuals that I think we've had on the show with. You're an ACA qualified accountant. On top of that, you've done your master's in Islamic finance. You I think you're currently studying for a PhD. You've done an MBA.
Speaker 1:A mini MBA.
Speaker 2:A mini MBA. Would you describe yourself as a lifelong learner?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I think, what drives you on that? There's the hadith, the messenger of Allah, which he mentioned. There's two types of people who can never be fulfilled. Somebody who's engrossed in learning. Knowledge has no shore. It's an endless ocean, and the more you learn, the more your ignorance grows. And that's the reality. And so, once I've done my PhD, I've already got plans on doing what's next. Right? So that's knowledge, that's what it is.
Speaker 2:We'll come on to the subject matter of your phd, because I think it's quite interesting. Before we go into all of that, can you explain to us exactly what a mufti is, and when did you realize you wanted to become a mufti? Was it always on the cards for you? Is it something you wanted to? Be, since you were a child, or did you realize you wanted to become a Mufti? Was it always on the cards for you? Is it something you wanted to be since you were a child, or?
Speaker 1:did you fall into it? Yeah, so what's a Mufti is a very big question. Look, classically a Mufti was somebody who was a mujtahid, somebody who was an all-round expert in the Islamic sciences and subjects, and they were able to do ijtihad what we know as ijtihad to Ijtihad, what we know as Ijtihad. Later on, what's happened is scholars have said we don't have those calibre of scholars anymore. It doesn't exist. Mufti became a person who was able to quote correctly from the classical scholars. That's what from a pure, like traditional fiqh sense. That's what a Mufti is. So he quotes and narrates the views of classical scholars. But today, what is a Mufti? Today? For most people, like for the general folk, a mufti is a person who specialized in fiqh, in Islamic law, under an expert teacher. He's trained, so it's almost like as a lawyer you do law in college or university, you do your LLB or whatever, and then you have a training contract and then you practice. That's how people can understand what a mufti is A person who's been training, practicing, and an expert in Islamic law. That's a mufti for the most people. But when it comes to actually being a mufti, there's so many flavors and so many different types of muftis, so you get people who are what I would call a, an academic researcher, a mufti who's just in his own kind of like library researching and writing, doesn't really engage with people. You can have a mufti who's what I call a people's mufti. He's the go-to person. Like my teacher, mufti Ibrahim Desai. He was the people's mufti. Anybody who has any problem He'd be the person they go to In the entire South Africa or the Durban area anyway, people would go to him. They knew that as long as he's there, I've got my problems resolved. Just like Imam Muhammad, the classical Imam Muhammad Hasan al-Shaybani, one of the students, imam Abu Hanifa, he would spend his night studying, learning and just engrossing in knowledge and he would say I'm doing this so people don't have to worry, I'm taking care of this burden for the people. So a mufti is so many things, and not only that as a practitioner. A mufti is an advisor, a counselor, people come. If you go through my phone right now, you'll see over 100 questions, 400, 500 questions, easily all left. I need to go through.
Speaker 1:People ask questions, many people that come to us for questions. It's not that they have an Islamic question per se always, but there's something deeper. They have a problem, a social problem, a family problem. Life is very tough. People have many problems out there and they need guidance and help. So they come to the Mufti with one problem, but really that's just a symptom of something larger, and so it's the Mufti's role to really help this person, remove their shackles from them, pick them up and guide them on their way again.
Speaker 1:And where do we learn all of this from? It's the messenger of Allah. He was like Imam Al-Qarafi, a famous Maliki scholar. He says that the messenger of Allah was Al-Mufti Al-A'lam, the most knowledgeable Mufti. Ibn Al-Qayyim, the famous student of Ibn al-Taymiyyah, who passes away, I think 751,. He says that the messenger of Allah was Imam al-Muftin, the Imam of all Muftis. That's the messenger of Allah. So how was he as a person and as a Mufti? Anybody could come to him with a problem. He would resolve the issue, lift them up and empower them, and that's where we learn this. So, and that's where we learn this. So that is, in a nutshell, what a Mufti is. It's much more than a person just writing articles or answers. It's much more than that. It's a lifelong service. That's really what it is. It's a service where this is my little thing I'll do in the world to please Allah, to help the people and take with me when I pass away. That's what a Mufti is.
Speaker 2:The way you described it. It sounds like there's such a huge responsibility and burden upon someone who undertakes the role of Mufti in that there's so many people relying on you for those answers.
Speaker 1:How do you deal?
Speaker 2:with that Does it ever become overwhelming?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it can become overwhelming because a mufti is being exposed to problems. A mufti is a problem solver. You have to give solutions continuously. If you're not problem solving, you're not doing your job properly. So we're trained in this way. We're trained Like when I was a student studying under my teacher, rahimahullah, we would be getting three questions a day, live questions, from real people, to find a solution for people. Because, as I mentioned, the world is an imperfect place. People have all types of challenges and problems, but people have good intentions, good hearts, they want to do good, but the circumstance and context is just. There's so many variables at play. Just think about it. So our job is then to understand the person's life, find a solution for them in their particular moment and context and then empower them and encourage them to find their way back on the, on the right road, and so we. It does become overwhelming because sometimes it's very emotional.
Speaker 1:You know there was a a and this is some like thoughts and past experiences coming to mind. There was a person who, him and his wife, were trying for a child for so many years, he's tried so many things, and he would ring my teacher almost every now and then. All he needed was 30 seconds of his time Just to uplift him, because he was so down and so nobody else was available. A mufti doesn't charge for his minutes. He's available and that should be the case. We're just there to help people. It's not a paid thing. It should never be, because your reward is with Allah.
Speaker 1:So he would just ring my teacher, message my teacher Just looking for that assurance, over and over again, and then he realized that he can also speak to me because my teacher said that you can also message him. So he kept in touch with me and I would continuously advise him or just help him. Just give him like literally 30 seconds of my time. Now, alhamdulillah, he had a child After like so many years, but now this is Almost 10 years. Until this day He'll still message me, just making dua for me. That's incredible, like.
Speaker 1:Because the Moment of impact Now, and when my teacher, rahimullah, passed away, we had people From all parts of the world Messaging and emailing, saying this person 20 years ago, 25 years ago, helped me with a question and resolved my problem, and so now he's passed away. I feel the loss, so you can imagine it's. It's really about, and this is the messenger of allah. What was he? He would build people. Yeah, that is what he really did Like. He was a master and a genius in every sense of the word. He built the Islamic economy and we can talk about that shortly, what it means for building like what he actually did.
Speaker 1:But for him, all his achievements and everything I did in his life in 23 years perhaps one of the greatest achievements was he transformed over 100,000 lives. Do you know what that means? 100,000 lives? To have that interaction with every single companion of his and transform them. Because where were they and where did he bring them? They were the lowest of the low. If you read the seerah, you know that, right when they were the practices in Arabia at the time. He came in the transformation that he worked on every single individual and to make them like graduate as the best of the best. Where did that energy come from? It was him. So he's our kind of leader and inspiration.
Speaker 2:That's who you want to emulate. It has to be. We all want to emulate.
Speaker 1:It has to be. He's the only one worthy of being emulated, and so as a child?
Speaker 2:where did this come from? That you wanted to become a mufti? Was your father a mufti?
Speaker 1:No, no. So I come from a very humble background. To be honest, my family nobody's really a scholarly kind of like background.
Speaker 1:Nothing, nobody, right, but I guess it was just something when I was in college or secondary school actually, at the time my life took a turn and I started wanting to learn more about Islam and then I always, from that moment, I was just seeking fulfillment and some meaning in my life as a teenager. There's so much going on in the world. You're looking at your own life and then I guess I started this journey of knowledge, of wanting to, because leicester, as you know, alhamdulillah it's surrounded by so many scholars, we have so many great institutions here, so you're exposed to an environment already and you see that as like the pinnacle. Yeah, that this is what I want to be like. These people are something, and I'm just this kind of bad boy on the street.
Speaker 1:Right, you want to like, be something great as a road man, yeah, so uh, so yeah, then I guess I just started learning and then I went in the first year. So traditionally this if you want to study knowledge full-time, it's like an alimiyyah program like a six year full time program. So I went to an institute in Leicester called Darul-ul-Nesta and it was in the first year. Towards the end of the first year and the second year I knew that I wanted to become a mufti in a six year program.
Speaker 2:I knew from year two so that was instead of no. So I went secondary school, I went college as well, okay after college.
Speaker 3:Then I went to this anemia program out of interest, because I've actually always wondered what did you study at college before any of this? Yeah, so you know it's.
Speaker 1:I wish I studied economics and accounting and all of these things in hindsight it wasn't it didn't so I went down the science route, actually did biology, chemistry, psychology, in physics there you go, physicists yeah but then I never put it into practice, never used it ever again.
Speaker 1:I was actually, you know, there was a time, in all honesty, I remember, when I was in college. I was on the verge of going to university. I'd applied, I got my place and everything, but it was that time where I really sat down. Do I go? Do I take the green pill? It was that moment. Which route do I go? Because life would be very different if I went down that route. I would have been somebody else, completely do you ever think about that.
Speaker 2:Where would you never, ever I've never thought.
Speaker 1:In fact, at that time I was, I even got my offer, I applied everything, but then I realized, uh, that this is the thing that I need to do and I want to do is Sharia studies. That is what I want to do.
Speaker 2:Wow, alhamdulillah. You did that because I think many of us financial institutions, or Islamic fintechs in particular, wouldn't be here, or wouldn't be here in the same way, were it not for Mati Faraz's advice and guidance.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't be here today if he hadn't made that decision back then.
Speaker 1:And I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the great. Somebody asked me recently that Well, they mentioned some praises or whatever about myself, and the honest truth is it's not me as a person, it's the blessing that I've had. I think the number one blessing that I've had in my life is I've always been blessed by Allah to be around great people. I think that's the secret, because, if I look at my life over the last 25 years, I've always had great people around me and that makes me like in anything like learn from them.
Speaker 2:So you give credit to the mentors in your life. Was there someone who really inspired you on that journey?
Speaker 1:You feel?
Speaker 2:you know, had the biggest impact.
Speaker 1:There's so many. But if I was to think of the main of the main, mufti Ibrahim Desai Rahimullah, for sure, right as a for the last 10, 12 years before until he passed away, he has been the number one inspiration for me, of course. But then there's so many people, even in the UK, the familiar names that we know in the industry, even right now, working with different firms and companies. You, you know great leaders, entrepreneurs. You learn from everybody. That's the thing, not only scholars. There's so many practitioners in the industry. They may not be scholars, but they're amazing individuals with great insights, leadership kind of mentality, and that the student is the one.
Speaker 1:If we can make ourselves a real student, we'll always be seeking, because a student seeks. So if you have that disposition as a student, in whichever company you go to, you'll be seeking that which benefits you, and so the blessing is, if you're connected to all these institutions, really it's a two-way thing. You're learning, you're giving. If you're connected to all these institutions, really it's a two-way thing You're learning, you're giving and you're learning Even with, in all honesty, you're kind of like working with Castro and Najib and the team. There's so much I've picked up.
Speaker 2:Really yeah, yeah. Now I don't want to From us.
Speaker 1:But you don't realize that, but a person who really comes to gain something and learn, and as a student mentality, you'll gain something. So it's a two-way thing okay so if we adopt and everybody who's watching this and will watch this, you go with a mentality of being a seeker of knowledge, you'll always gain.
Speaker 2:We're going quite off script here, but I hope you'll bear with me on this. Can you learn from from your enemies?
Speaker 3:do you?
Speaker 2:think, and that the reason I asked this question is there's been a lot going on, especially at the time of recording, on muslims having a conversation, a dialogue as to whether we should be using platforms like x or um, you know other platforms where the founders and the people who created them are, you know, clearly have some sort of bias against Islam, against Muslims.
Speaker 1:Do you think?
Speaker 2:there's something to be learned from these other entrepreneurs who clearly have, you know, something to say about our religion negatively, or should we cut that out?
Speaker 1:When it comes to every human being, there's good to gain. Everybody has good and bad, positives and negatives. That's the reality. The Messenger of Allah, he never closed the door to anybody. Everybody has good and bad, positives and negatives. That's the reality, the Messenger of Allah, he never closed the door to anybody. Everybody has something. Why did he pray for Sayyidina Umar?
Speaker 2:That's very true.
Speaker 1:He prayed for Sayyidina Umar, despite being one of the most staunch. Like, what was his intention? You tell me what was his intention. Assassinate the Messenger of Allah, that's like the worst crime you could think of. Assassinate the messenger of Allah, that's like the worst crime you could think of. Forget everything else, but look, he was making dua for him.
Speaker 1:So Our whole mentality Is completely incorrect here. We're here to like, shut down others, but really, what if we took the prophetic way, really and genuinely, and embodied that and tried to find the best in people? It's not about what they're doing. The question is what are we doing? You can't control the action of other people. We can control your actions, right, and that's what's the only power that we have. Is what I can do and I always tell my students that I have is we should be the ones really going out there and showing the prophetic way. Look the messenger of Allah when out there and showing the prophetic way. Look the messenger of allah when he.
Speaker 1:I'll give you two examples and this will make you realize what he did with his enemies. There was one individual called thumama, right, so he was captured, uh, by the muslims, and he comes into the masjid, the messenger of allah like at that time. What would happen is you have like a jail, almost like a prison, yeah, so he's kept in the masjid. That's his kind of imprisonment. So he sees the Muslims Doing everything, performing salah, sitting with the messenger of Allah, him talking. He would come to him See if he's okay. He would get his food and everything. They were really good with him.
Speaker 1:One day passed, two days passed, the third day passes. The messenger of Allah Tells the companions Atliqu thumama, release him, let him go. This is the person who was Harming the believers and the Muslims Staunch against the believers. Let him go. So he gives them his freedom, go away. He leaves the masjid. He finds a nearby river, has a shower bath, washes himself, refreshes himself. He comes back Into the masjid. What does he do? He goes to the messenger of Allah and he says Ashadu an la ilaha illallah Wa ashadu annaka rasulullah. He says I testify there's only one Allah and I testify you're the messenger of Allah. Then he says you know, from all the people On the face of this earth, your face was the most Disdasteful to me, but now your face has become the most beloved to me. And from all the places on the earth, your place, this city, your masjid, your environment was the most detested to me. This has now become the most beloved places to me. That's the first example. Look how the Messenger of Allah changed hate into love, negative to positive. Why? Because he had that forbearance.
Speaker 1:Another individual Called Fudhala this is after the Fatah, makkah, when Makkah was conquered, right In the 8th year of Hijrah. He's the Messenger of Allah, is doing Tawaf around the Ka'bah. Now Fudhala. He has a dagger Concealed and he's walking behind the Messenger of Allah. His intention is From behind. He wanted to put an end to the Messenger of Allah. So every time he comes behind the Messenger of Allah, the Messenger of Allah turns around and he says a fudhala like, oh, fudhala, like maa indak, like what is it with you? Like what's happening? What's this dialogue you're having with yourself? What is it? And then he would say nothing. The Messenger of Allah would just Smile at him. And the second round, again, he'd find a way Behind the Messenger of Allah. Again, come very close.
Speaker 1:The Messenger of Allah Turns again, looks at him and says what is it, fadhala? What is it that you're trying to do? And he just he says no, nothing, nothing, azkurullah. He says I'm just doing dhikr of Allah, nothing else. He's telling the Messenger of Allah this right, the Messenger of Allah, this right the messenger of Allah, smile, just smile. The third time he comes, the messenger of Allah turns around and, with his hand, he just puts it onto his chest. That's all he does. He just puts his hand onto his chest. Fardhala says that wallahi. The moment the messenger of Allah removed his hand from my chest, from that moment my entire being changed and from that moment he became the most beloved people to me. Like this is what we need today and that's what we're missing. That's why we're losers. There's nothing else. It's nothing else. This is a standard yeah.
Speaker 1:So we don't have the forbearance, the intellectual acumen, the curiosity, the productivity, the energy, the passion For people at large, and that's why we are where we are to Muslim Money Talk.
Speaker 2:If you like what you've heard so far, you might be interested in checking out what we do at Kestrel, the Muslim money app. Kestrel is a service that helps Muslims who want to grow their wealth without having to compromise, whether it's on their belief or user experience or price. I founded Kestrel because of how fed up I was at how poor Islamic financial services were in this country. Often people didn't use them because of how bad the user experience or customer service and indeed, how high in price they were. So Kestrel was the answer to that. If you download the Kestrel app today, it can help you by creating a budgeting plan. Plug in whatever bank account you have and it will create a auto budget just for you. You can then tell us what goals you're saving for, and we'll save towards them automatically into pot and then, crucially, link you towards Sharia compliant investment and savings products as well. So download Kestrel today and try it out for yourself. Now back to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Gosh.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's something to be said of turning the other cheek and just showing people the best examples of what islam is, but so few of us are actually living that way right now. So, yeah, it's a beautiful reminder that I think we're so quick to jump to. Oh, let's, let's stop this, let's cut this out, let's stop doing this.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I think that's an incredible point well made um this.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more we could talk about this topic, but we need to come to the crux of the issue. So the way you were describing what a mufti was before it sounded a lot almost as if you were talking about doctors. You had doctors who were here to help people that you've got someone who specializes in spinal surgery, someone who's a GP, you know someone who's just specifically targeting the foot for you. Your chosen specialty was Islamic finance. How did that come about? After studying all the different fields, you decided to focus on this one in particular, Especially when you didn't have a background in finance.
Speaker 2:You didn't study economics or accounting or anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah so the story behind that is actually it was in my second year that I knew that I wanted to become a specialist in Islamic finance Second year of Iftar, no, in Islamic studies, my alimiyah. I knew from that moment this is what I want to do. I think it's really important for people just to sit down and map their entire life out, just have a vision for your life. Who are you, what you're about? So at that age, at that time I was studying I knew that this is what I want to do. I knew that this is what I want to do. This is where I want to go, and at that time, actually, I wanted to go to Muftiq Uthmani in Karachi. That was my, that was my end, all and be all. I want to go to Darul Ulum, karachi, study Islamic finance under Muftiq Uthmani and graduate as a Mufti. That was my passion and vision. I even applied for his place. That was my Like. He was my inspiration At the time and he still is Amazing. You know Personality. But so I knew from the second year this is what I want to do. What was Some of the things that really spurred me was when you study fiqh and I'm sure you've had Some kind of engagement With fiqh.
Speaker 1:But other chapters make sense, like salah and hajj and these things. You see some practice. The moment you step into the territory of commerce and trade and business, it's another world, like what you're reading and what you're seeing are two different things, and I love to understand what I'm doing and studying that kind of those topics and those chapters just didn't make sense to me. I'm reading this thing here, but what I'm seeing out there, just how do I bridge that gap? But what I'm seeing out there? Just how do I bridge that gap?
Speaker 2:Do you mean, because a lot of the examples from the Hadith and the Sunnah to do with trading a cow, for example, or a camel or something like that, and now we're trying to apply it to major financial transactions and bonds, and Exactly.
Speaker 1:The world is a completely different place. Like the innovation in financial transaction, like financial innovation is somewhere else and what we are reading classically is somewhere else. But at that time, obviously, I was very naive and misunderstanding, thinking it has no relevance. But it really has all the relevance.
Speaker 1:It's because I was doing a surface level reading and I thought, yeah, it's not relevant. But that's when I thought I really need to understand this more and more. So it's then the third year. I asked one of my teachers look, I really want to learn about Islamic finance. Tell me what to read, tell me what to do. So he gives me a book Introduction to Islamic Finance from Muftiq Uthmani. You read that, you start looking online. I remember at that time there was a company called an Islamic Bank of Britain. At the time Forget.
Speaker 1:Al-Rayyan Islamic Bank of Britain. There was an insurance company or As-Salam Institute right, it's called Al-Salam Insurance. They came for a presentation on here on Takaful and Islamic insurance here in Leicester. In Leicester they came. I remember going there as a student of knowledge wanting to learn more. There were many other things I started going to and just wanting to learn. And then I think, yeah, by the fourth year, fifth year, I realized I can't go to Karachi. I didn't really want to go then because it's all in Urdu. I just thought, if I'm living in the UK, I'd rather study in English, and not that my Urdu was excellent anyway right.
Speaker 1:I was quite appalling. I don't want to be writing in Urdu, right, yeah, and I don't want to be speaking, I'd rather just do it all in English. And then by the I actually made connection with Mufti BA. I would email him, speak to him and tell him I want to come study with you. He'd come to London every Ramadan, so I started going to every Ramadan. I started spending in I'tikaf, spending a few days with him. I built a bond with him and he was already in Islamic finance in South Africa. He was one of the main scholars there and that really pushed me further and further, and I guess then the rest is history, where I studied with him and then it was just something which is it's difficult, it's really difficult yeah, it sounds like you were drawn towards how hard it was.
Speaker 1:I think that's. That's what it is, because it was a real challenge. It's not easy. You know, the chapters of Mu'ammalat are extremely difficult, like from all the chapters of fiqh. You ask any scholar, they'll tell you mu'amalat is the most challenging topics and subjects. There's very few people who actually engross themselves. Now, my personal wish and vision for muftis is this Like exactly what you just mentioned, you have different experts in the NHS doctors, consultants Like you have lawyers. You have lawyers who are what? Litigation? Doctors, consultants Like you have lawyers. You have lawyers who are what? Litigation? Commercial property, what else?
Speaker 3:is there IP corporate family?
Speaker 1:Imagine you have an entire suite of lawyers specializing in different areas. My dream and vision and wish is we have muftis who super specialize, because a mufti is already a specialist, but today that's not enough. That's why Sheikh Awama Hafizullah, very senior scholar, sheikh Awama he also mentioned that and makes the same point that today we need super specialists and we need Muftis who are super specialists. So we need a Mufti who's just a specialist in Tahara and Salah, a Mufti who's a specialist in Hajj, a Mufti who's a specialist in hajj, a mufti who's a specialist in wills and wasiya and inheritance, a mufti who's a specialist in finance in zakah. Is there a supply?
Speaker 2:issue here. Are there enough muftis in the world to be specialising at such a granular level?
Speaker 1:I think there is. To be honest, I think there is. We only need 100 muftis and they'll change the entire dynamics.
Speaker 2:I believe A hundred, like a hundred muftis who are specialists in the area, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So every chapter, we need one expert who will then become the generator and engine to create more specialists. But you need somebody who first devotes themselves, say, look, this is my area, I'm going to give it my all and that's it. So for me personally, now I've had that thing, that for me it's finance and mu'amalat. This is what I'm about. I'm not going to deal and dabble with nikah and talaq. If I get those questions, I'm a switchboard I say go here, go there, go there. I don't deal with salah and tahara as much. It's not that I can't answer the questions, I can, people, but I'm not going to spend five hours. It's a trade-off. Life is all about trade-offs and if you've understood your your why that this is what I'm about. Then you got to make a decision do I do x, what do I do? What's the opportunity cost of me doing?
Speaker 2:x. That's the most important. You said something interesting earlier. You said in your second year you thought you you knew what your. Why was you really understood that? And you thought you said everyone should write down what their plan is. I think that's quite hard for young people to do these days, where they really aren't figuring that out as early on. Often they're going to university to study something I don't know. I did physics. I didn't want to be a physicist, right. It's just almost like buying time to figure out what it was I wanted to do. I kind of knew it was going to be something in financial services and I was studying in London, so that was kind of the route, but I had no idea. Do you have any advice to young people today to find that why and to make a plan, even if that plan is probably not, you're probably not going to stick to that. But what advice would you give to people listening?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say look, it's a journey of self-discovery. You have to question yourself, understand who you are, what you're about and what you want to achieve. So you, you should lock the door to your bedroom. All the delivery over eats, right. And then you literally all day, all night, have a whiteboard and I have literally two huge whiteboards right next to me and I'm always drawing and scribbling, because your thoughts and plans, it's all artistry. You have to just let it flow naturally from you. So you need that white board, right.
Speaker 1:So all I was doing was planning. This is what I did and this is what I would advise to anybody. Sit down for 48 hours and just understand who you are, what you're about, start from the end. This is what I want to achieve when I die. That Start from the end, this is what I want to achieve when I die. That's the greatest question On your deathbed, when you're about to go what is it that you want to take with you? What legacy do you want to leave behind? Now you can say, okay, fine, I want to become a lawyer. But okay, fine. But how do you put that to use?
Speaker 1:There's more to it than just that, yeah, but it doesn't mean you have to become a scholar, but it doesn't mean you have to become a scholar. I'm not saying everybody has to become a scholar. You can do so much as a lawyer, as a doctor, as an accountant. Everybody can do their share, use your skills and your passion in the most positive way. It doesn't mean you have to become a scholar or a hermit or somebody who sits in the masjid all day. It doesn't mean that at all, but you just understand who you're about, what you're about. It reminds me of something.
Speaker 2:Uh, our guest last week, the episode just before is heart koreshi, who, uh, mashallah is a fantastic growth lead and growth marketer over at the nia app um he said something incredible where he said you can go. You could go and ask a man in his 50s who's lived a whole life um what's the purpose?
Speaker 2:of life and they would um and are and not really know. But you could ask a 12 year old today who studies islam and kind of understands what, what's going on, what is the purpose of life, and they'd be able to give you some form of an answer you know to.
Speaker 2:To please allah, to worship allah, to leave something behind in that way and it's almost, as a muslim, the way we frame our why is always within that. That that's fear, almost okay, doing something, leaving something behind, but to please Allah in that way. It's probably a bit early in the podcast to be asking you this question, but when you asked that question, what legacy did you want to leave behind?
Speaker 1:You know, I think that my personal thing is I don't think that's good enough. When you say I want us to please Allah, I don't think that's good enough, simply because it's too vague. What does it mean to you? You need extremely clear, vivid goals which you can articulate and you can quantify and measure. That's the most important thing. So if you just say I want to please Allah, you have nothing practical, tangible, because that can mean so many things to so many different people. So you have to say I want to do, for instance, I want to build a thousand masajid. I want to do, for instance, I want to build a thousand masajid. I want to teach a thousand students. I want to give 50,000 pounds in sadaqah as an example. I want to be a means of 50,000 people becoming closer to Allah.
Speaker 1:You have to quantify your goals. I want to write 500 books if I pass away. And then you say, if I need to do 500 books, let's make it realistic. 100 books, right, 100 books, 100 books. I've got like to say 30 years of my life. And then you just do the maths, yeah, and say, okay, every day I need to write then five pages. You have to make your goals something which are real, that you can do. Today, I practice upon, and so having these the thing about why is you should be able to quantify your goals. Yeah, if you can't quantify it and you have this big thing I want to please Allah it becomes very difficult for you yourself to understand that goal.
Speaker 1:Gosh it's a lot like a business in that way.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. A lot of businesses have actual, real quantifiable metrics Specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, smart.
Speaker 1:Not Smart goals. Smart goals, that's what they are.
Speaker 3:I'll never forget on the course, because you tasked us with this very challenge at the beginning of I think it was two years ago now 2023, and you said I want you to go where your homework is, to go and write down 10 goals that you have, not just for this year, like most people are doing, you know, january but for your life, just want to please Allah. I want specific things. I'm not sure, to be honest, that I quite fulfilled the challenge.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm still working it out. What were your goals? Do you remember any of them? That's not a podcast. That's not a podcast.
Speaker 3:But I do remember some of yours which were very inspiring, and I remember you mentioning that you wanted to train up I can't remember how many, but X number of students to be muftis, and you know and and um, and to raise, you know, your daughters to be, you know, righteous servants of allah, and all things that had tangible outcomes. Um, and yeah, that's something that really you know stayed with me with from from the course how many was it?
Speaker 2:how many muftis did you want to train?
Speaker 1:I think I I mentioned 100, so I I did 100 for 33 years. If I have an average of three students, I'll hit my target okay so, uh, alhamdulillah I've been, we've been quite well. I think I had what two in the first year, we had five in the second year, so it's not bad, it averages itself out are you taking any more?
Speaker 3:any more candidates? The wall is open if you pass the test okay, there we go, so just moving on here.
Speaker 2:So we talked about Islamic finance. I wanted to ask, like, in this new age where we are in in social media, it seems like people are pulling fatwas from all over the place. Fatwas can be issued through.
Speaker 1:Twitter through.
Speaker 2:X through TikTok. How do you feel about this? Do you think it's almost degrading the power of a fatwa in some way, in that people are almost fatwa shopping? So a good example of this are the mortgages and this. This debate came up again recently on x. I think, uh, I think ardeal from uh islamic finance gurus brought it up recently where he believed people were really abusing the fatwa, which says that you can take out a conventional mortgage in this country out of necessity, in that you can use it if you mortgage in this country out of necessity, in that you can use it if you need a place to live and he thought well, people are using that to buy houses well beyond their means and therefore are abusing it.
Speaker 1:And there were a lot of counterpoints to that as well.
Speaker 2:Do you have anything around that or any thoughts about disagreements between Muthis on different fatwas and how that can be abridged? I think the first point is extremely important between Muthis on different fatwas and how that can be abridged.
Speaker 1:So I think the first point is extremely important is the abuse of people speaking on Islamic matters without the qualifications. Think about if it was the NHS and the porter or the nurse started giving medical advice or diagnosing patients. There would be an outrage. So this is exactly worse than that. But nobody really has, nobody understands the gravity of this.
Speaker 1:But if you read the hadith on speaking about knowledge, matters of knowledge without knowledge and being well-versed to do so, one of the hadith mentions فَلِيَتَ بَوَّأْ مَقْعَدُهُمْ مِنَ النَّارِ that whoever speaks about the Quran without being qualified to do so, let him prepare his end in the hellfire. Another narration which the Messenger of Allah, he talks about how knowledge will be taken is by the movement, the kind of like disappearance of scholars, when scholars disappear. Then he mentioned that the people ittakhadha nassu ru'usan juhalan. The people will take leaders who have no knowledge. They'll give fatwa without knowledge. And then he mentions the people who are giving this Islamic advice or whatever they're giving it's misguidance. They'll be misguided and they'll put people to misguidance, and that's the reality of today. So today you have everybody speaking. For instance, just recently I read something online where somebody said yeah, well, this Trump meme coin.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it should be halal. It's all about benefits and harms, so I don't see any harm in it and therefore it should be beneficial. And therefore, allah knows best, it should be okay by throwing in. Allah knows best. Doesn't make your answer any okay or oh yeah, this is the caveat. It's my humble opinion and it's the truth is, you don't have the right to have an opinion. That's the truth. Now, if you want to have an opinion, you come in the arena. The arena is of scholars. Study properly.
Speaker 1:This is only a new phenomenon, by the way. A hundred years ago, peasants and common folk, right, would not be able to speak about islamic matters. Only with the advent of social media has everybody got their own platform. And now it's all about okay, I can articulate well, or I've got a following, or I can do my media, or I've got a marketing team which can boost the numbers, and I can get some paid ads. Before it was something like that. You would never have an audience classically. But so the world's changed today, unfortunately, and that's why there's so much confusion.
Speaker 2:Do you think there's a dangerous watering down the religion?
Speaker 1:a hundred percent, because what's happening is people are taking their knowledge. That's why Muhammad ibn Sirin rahimahullah, a very famous scholar, what did he say? إِنَّ هَذَا الْعِلْمَ دِينٌ فَانْظُرُوا عَمَّنْ تَأْخُذُونَ دِينَكُمْ. This knowledge is your religion. Meaning whatever you learn is what you will practice when you take knowledge from.
Speaker 1:So if a person is a banker or a risk manager or a accountant, he's not a sharia expert who spent a number of years with scholars. How can you take your knowledge from him? That's why Ibn Hajar al-Hitami rahimahullah, very famous Shafi'i scholar, classical, he mentioned that he was asked about a person giving fatwa and he said what if a person he spends his entire life reading books of scholars and he masters all the books Can he give fatwa? He mentioned no, this person is a jahil. He's a jahil, he's ignorant. He can't give fatwa Even though he's been immersed in these books. Imam Nawabi then mentions that even if a person reads 10 books, 20 books on his own, he masters them even then he can't give fatwa. Only when he trains with an expert, understands knowledge from where it is, takes it from the people of knowledge, then yes, يَسْلُحُ this person, أَيَكُونَ وَاسِطَطًا بَيْنَ اللَّهِ وَ. He mentions only when a person is trained Properly with scholars, Then he is able to be the intermediary between Allah and the people, and that's what a scholar is.
Speaker 2:Why is that bridge so important? To learn at the feet of another mufti, as opposed to studying on your own.
Speaker 1:What is it?
Speaker 2:that you're learning from these teachers or from people specifically? As opposed to you just studying it yourself from the book.
Speaker 1:That's a very good question. What is it so? Knowledge is not just what, it's not information. What you gain from books is information. Ilm is something else. It's what is gained from the heart. So, for instance, the teachers I studied under, they learnt under other teachers, senior teachers, they learnt from other grand teachers, then great teachers, all the way up to who To?
Speaker 1:the messenger of Allah. We have this sunnah, and knowledge is not just what you read. Knowledge is about practice, about understanding, about tafakku and faham. That is only learned with experts because, yeah, you've got all this text, but how do you apply that? You just think about it in your day-to-day. You're a lawyer. If you didn't have a training contract, how would it be for you?
Speaker 3:honestly, I mean it would be impossible, because you can read all the legal textbooks from an LLB or the GDL but, yeah, without having actually trained with a team, you're not going to know how to apply that in real world scenarios to respond to problems as you're talking about. We're used to saying in class that, being a lawyer, you can have half a hat of fiqh on. Just from that I think it does ring true, because I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. When it comes to iftar and muftis, I can see why. Firstly, why that would be an attractive field to go in, but also why it's so necessary and why the thresholds of it is, you know, so high. So, yeah, I mean it would be difficult I mean, even think about doctors.
Speaker 1:Like inshallah, none of us have to go to hospital. But recently I was in hospital. Now every morning the consultant comes with a team of like five, six doctors. I don't know if you've ever seen this. So if you're admitted in the hospital, you'll have your consultant come every morning just to see you and he's just walking around the ward and so he has like about eight, nine students studying with him and they'll all have. They'll be making notes on every patient learning. That's all training.
Speaker 1:Now this is how serious, because you see the consequences in real life. When it comes to life and death matters, we take that seriously. But this thing about islamic knowledge, everything the consequences are all hidden for now, it's in the hereafter. I think people have just become so negligent of this matter, unfortunately, and we've just like why can't it be that? Look, your expertise is an excellent entrepreneur. I need your insights if I want to build something. You'll be the best person to go to. He's a lawyer. Let me take and maximize his benefit and use from him when it comes to legal matters. This person is a Sharia scholar. Let's go to him for this particular matter. If we all take the best of one another. The world will be a different place.
Speaker 2:And I think that's really where the issue is coming up now, where you have matters of Islamic finance. I really feel so much about Islamic finance. It's one of the most misunderstood fields in Islam today because of what you were saying, that a lot of the examples, and the Fikr examples, are so far removed from the financial instruments that we have available right now. So what would you say about that?
Speaker 2:If someone's going online and say I feel like this is one way and I feel like the fatwa should be being applied in a different matter. Is your response? That's really just up to the muftis to determine.
Speaker 1:It shouldn't be for a company or for us to come out and say Is that?
Speaker 2:kind of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's all like Sharia matters are really in the realm of scholars. That's the truth. If you want to have an opinion on a Sharia matter and I know some people might find this harsh, but the reality is you have no right to have an opinion. That's the truth. I'm just being very frank. I'm speaking from what all the scholars have said classically. Now, if you want to have an opinion, then you study as well, properly, full-time, full-time under experts, graduate and then, yeah, join the arena and have your view, but we also cannot deny the way people feel about some of these things en masse.
Speaker 2:So you know it's a common criticism. We've talked about it in many podcasts and Ali's and in many others the idea of how Islamic Islamic finance is today the term was coined on a previous podcast so it won't go into the details of it but Islamic finance today is contextually halal.
Speaker 2:And that is the best that we can do within the existing system, which is built upon a river, the world economy that we have today, that we're almost trying to fit this round peg into a square hole to make it Islamic. And from your responses that listen if the Sharia scholars are saying that this is Sharia compliant, we should go for it and we should back it. But a lot of people today feel uncomfortable with that. What's your response to your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:I think there's multiple ways to look at this and multiple issues. People have genuine concerns and questions. That's fine, and practitioners should raise questions, because this industry is not just built on the back of scholars. Everybody has a hand to play, but everybody has a role to play. That's the most important thing. We all need to play our roles Now. We need to. It's a team effort. You have a goalkeeper, you have defenders, you have attackers, you have wingers. Everybody, everybody's needed, but you need to do your bit in the whole pot. So, from these people who have objections and questions, yes, speak to your scholars. The wrong thing is to do just to start, like going on social media. I think this. I think that I think this If you have a problem, speak with the right people in the industry, for instance, right now. I know just in the last two weeks, I've had some conversations with people because of the confusion that's been created. Right now.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, for whatever reason, there's people out there who are saying forget Islamic finance, all of it. It's just too confusing. These people are saying nothing is Sharia compliant. These people are saying it's Sharia compliant. These people are saying we're authentic, we're authentic and nobody else is authentic. So there's people out there saying forget all of this drama, I'll just go and get a conventional mortgage. I know people genuine people, have done this saying it's too confusing. Now who's to blame? It's a confusion. I mean these like mufti barakatullah, a senior scholar. He said to me we had dealt with these matters 15, 20 years ago and he mentioned like it's like, what's all this now? It's like new kids on the block. You've come up and now you're just causing drama and and erasing a question which we had resolved.
Speaker 2:I'd argue they weren't resolved, though, because the message hadn't really become inculcated within the public's hearts and minds. The reason these questions are coming up again is that when they go to their parents or they ask their people locally, their older siblings, about these matters, they're still confused about it, and that's what we find when we speak to our customers at Kestrel. When we speak to people on socials, the people interacting with our videos, it seems like it's a generational problem, and, even though it may have been a result at a scholarly level or at an industry practice level, I think that's maybe the job where entrepreneurs like ourselves, like all the other practitioners in the space well, we have a job to do to bridge that gap between what the scholars are saying on one side versus the products that are being created and rolled out to the public and how they're being marketed to them.
Speaker 1:maybe that's where it lies, yeah, so this is one of the reasons why I wrote my book called prophetic finance and economics right, which is with uh, yeah, it's because you know, you have to understand one of the, actually Ibrahim Kania, from IFG.
Speaker 1:He mentioned a brilliant point like about building a vision for the industry once. He mentioned this to me because the people yes, of course we're living in, we're living in an environment which is naturally a river based system. That's a reality we're living in, but it's absolutely fine. Things take time to grow. As long as we're within the boundaries of fiqh, the product is sharia compliant. Does that mean it can't improve? Of course it can, but it doesn't mean it's contextually halal. It is halal, but can it improve? Of course it can improve, but where is the improvements? The improvements, the improvements is in the sunnah practice, or maybe we don't make it into a structured product. We can change things around. We have favorable tax treatment now or the regulators have allowed us to do something different.
Speaker 1:But for most part, if you look at it, I speak to multiple founders. They tell us the founders are telling me that it's not, that it's investors. They want products which are predictable, which are debt-based, which are so and so forth. They don't want the risk. It's not the Musharraq Mubaraba that they want. And even if they go down the road, there's tax issues, there's regulatory issues, there's legal issues, there's just so many structural issues. And then it comes the capital. Where is the capital going to come from People? People don't want that risk. So there's a Wholesale of issues it's not to do with. I don't believe the issues are from A Sharia perspective. Well, the fact is, the Fiqh Will always accommodate. That's what the Fiqh is. The Fiqh is a Large boundary. It's there to fulfill the people's needs.
Speaker 1:There's no conspiracy. You know there's people think oh, islamic finance, is it reallyic? Why is it a conspiracy? Why would it be a conspiracy? There's people from across the world, from so many countries, think about it. Dozens of countries who don't know each other are all doing islamic finance. If it was a big conspiracy wouldn't have been exposed by now. It's not a conspiracy.
Speaker 1:We all have our challenges. Is it perfect? Meaning, is sharia compliant? But can we improve? Of course we can. It doesn't matter that we're not at the best moment. But when we say can we improve, it doesn't mean it's not halal right now it is halal and that's why I like to always bring in my kind of like three-step thing when I say, right now, what we're practicing is, on the level one, islamic finance, which is permissible Islamic finance. We're creating products within our context and challenges to fit within the boundary of Sharia compliance, and that's good because we're saving people from riba. But is that the end all and be all? Is that the end all? Of course not. We want to be the ones who lead mankind.
Speaker 1:This goes back to our earlier conversation being prophetic, but you can't enforce that upon the people. This is the sunnah can't be enforced. It's something which has to be built in within you. The second level is equitable finance, which is like so you've got a musharaka, let it operate like a true musharaka. Let things be like all risks, everything be shed equally, because that's the idea of musharaka, that's the idea of Musharraqah.
Speaker 1:That's a level two and the highest level is prophetic finance, where the banks and institutions actually go and give to the customers as opposed to taking always. So it's the banks which will pay the costs. What do you mean by that give to the customer? So, for instance, typically if you get a finance right now from the bank or from any Islamic institution, the customer will bear the costs of the solicitors and everything from the bank or from any Islamic institution. The customer will bear the costs of the solicitors and everything, even the banks. Typically, that's how it works.
Speaker 1:Now the prophetic level, the messenger of Allah. How was he? He would be the one always giving more to the people. So if we want to follow the true kind of like way, the financial institutions who are Islamic, who adopt the Islamic identity, they should be the ones helping, empowering their customers. Give an interest-free loan. We don't see that product. Why don't we see an interest-free loan product? Because you don't have to monetize everything. But these are the gaps. But not offering an interest-free loan doesn't mean that you're not Sharia compliant.
Speaker 2:I think a big part of the problem is that when people think of the idea of a bank and you put Islamic in front of it, I think it's very hard for the banks or Islamic banks to operate within the current regulatory system, which isn't really set up for a system where you can just provide an interest-free loan and make that scalable and make the business profitable in that way. So to that extent, do you think it's possible for us to ever proceed beyond level one and get towards that prophetic level of finance.
Speaker 1:If we have enough demand on the ground, we'll definitely be in a better place than we are today. If we create barriers for growth, like we're doing right now, when just confusing people en masse, we would never go beyond level one. In fact, I fear we'll go back to the ground zero.
Speaker 2:Do you?
Speaker 1:really think that's a risk right now. I think it's a big risk. The biggest risk to Islam and finance today is ignorance. That is the biggest risk, without a shadow of a doubt. There's nothing else. It's ignorance, arrogance, people spreading this confusing messaging. There's no gain for anybody. Like what are we trying to achieve as an industry if we're just telling everybody yeah, well, they're not Shari compliant, we're the only Shari compliant ones. What do you gain? Like to be a firm? To work in an ecosystem, you need other competitors and partners. You can't build it yourself. You know your wait list is perhaps. When will you fulfill your wait list? That's the problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's your view on where the industry should head? You mentioned the three levels. Do you think there's room for I don't know an Islamic bank to enter the market and get it right and do it the right way, for example?
Speaker 1:I know there's many conversations happening about Islamic banks entering the uk market and I'm sure you're all kind of privy to those conversations as well. Look, we want simply more products. Right now, I think we're still. It's not going to happen overnight. Rome was not built overnight. Medina was not built overnight.
Speaker 1:Even if it takes 20 years, 50 years, even if we're in level one for 50 years, it doesn't matter. Like why is it this urgency that we have to be angelic and, like you, have to enter utopia, or this absolutism, but we have to be this or that? There's nothing else in between. Yeah, things. It's a journey. Look at it. And that's why, if we we've moved away from the seerah, the seerah is the prime example. It took 23 years, of 23 years of difficulties, of time, of energy, of effort, of sacrifice, slowly but surely. So, even if it takes us 50 years, it does not matter. All we need to do is have that vision, that roadmap. In 50 years' time, in 100 years' time, islamic finance in the UK must look like this. This is what I believe, every single entrepreneur, founder, ceo in the uk of an islamic finance firm, you all must do. It's a responsibility on your shoulders. This is what I truly believe, to come together, put all your differences aside, work together to have a roadmap, that this is what we want to build, and all of that Within the vast boundaries of fiqh.
Speaker 1:Fiqh is so vast. Look at the boundaries of fiqh. It's so vast. How the scholars operate within fiqh there's so much flexibilities. We know that In mu'amalat, the default is Everything is permissible Unless there's evidence of it being impermissible. That's your boundary, imagine. So you have. The whole point of Mu'ammalat is what To fulfill people's need in the world. It's all about that. Primarily, to fulfill the needs of people in the world. Secondarily, to please Allah or the Akhirah. Not please Allah, but the Akhirah. That's the main thing To gain Allah's pleasure and to gain reward in the Akhira. But primarily, mu'ammalat is to fulfill the people's need in the world. Why so? If they can fulfill their need In the most efficient way, they can do that which is most important, which is their existential purpose.
Speaker 2:So for us as entrepreneurs, do you have a vision as to what Islamic finance should be like in 100 years?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so look my vision is we need an ecosystem, right An ecosystem. We need 10, 15 Islamic financing institutions. We need a kafir. We need a zakat, we need a qaf. We need these robo-advisors. We need everything and so many of everything. When you have a buzzing ecosystem, think about the power of that and you can have different products. You can have those products which are operating differently, with different products and structures. You have these companies offering different products. We want more products because it all adds to the richness of the industry, because everybody's risk appetite, return appetite, risk return profile, your needs requirements, the variables involved are all different. If we can't provide a product to a person who has a circumstantial, contextual need, we failed as an industry.
Speaker 2:What about this idea? And this comes up a lot because, alhamdulillah, we have a lot of shareholders at Kestrel, a lot of people who use Kestrel, who are not Muslim, who like the idea of an alternative to the conventional financial system. Do you think for us to be truly Islamic? I think Ali said this on our podcast. He said the idea of Islamic finance is a relatively new term because back in the time of the Sahaba it was just finance, that was just the way of trading but putting Islamic in front of it and saying it's just for Muslims.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's almost a misnomer and that's what's getting in our way? Or should we be saying that this is something that could be used by everyone, just because it's better than the existing conventional financial system, which has led to all these financial crashes and your money is not really safe? And the idea of fiat currency. To an extent it's not really real. Do you think that's a different way of approaching it?
Speaker 1:So this issue of calling it Islamic finance it's out of necessity, almost, because right now the default is finance which is conventional. People don't can't differentiate. It's a differentiator. You need that because your primary customer is the Muslim. He's the one who wants an alternative. So that's why we're using Islamic finance, because they need to know this is the halal way to do things, the proper way to do things. But really it's for everybody and this is again our market is not just the Muslims genuinely Although primary is for them but even the non-Muslims. They're also human beings. They also need help. They also have financial problems, just like us. They have their own financial struggles. If we really adopt them the prophetic way, we'd be thinking about every single person, regardless of who, what, when, why and how, and that's what's missing in our life. So we need to always try and build for everybody. But of course, islamic finance primarily being for Muslims we're going to be it's naturally that we want to label in a way which makes sense to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. But do you think it's more? It's just right now. It's just a way of marketing it to our beachhead market, which has to be the Muslims at first. But that doesn't mean it should exclude it's not exclusionary at all, absolutely. I think Mohammed Faraj has said this. I was having a chat with him the other day. He said it really interestingly Right now, with the current government's becoming increasingly right-wing, there's a real Islamophobia being created in the Western world right now, a lot of people blaming Islam for their struggles.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, if you market something as Islamic, perhaps that could be detrimental to the cause. It could be more difficult to raise funds, for example, whereas if you marketed it differently and said, especially at a governmental level, this could be a real way of generating investment, foreign direct investment into this country or bolstering the economy, which I don't know why we don't talk about that more. As soon as people hear at Kestrel oh yeah, we're doing stuff in Malaysia, we're doing stuff in Saudi, then all these politicians come out of nowhere. They're like, yeah, we should definitely talk. We should talk about this. Come on this trade mission which I feel I don't know, I feel kind of funny about because on the one hand, I want to say I'm an Islamic business and the reason I'm doing this is to help Muslims here on the ground, but at the same time, you almost have to play that game that it is bringing money into this economy as well. So that's why you should care about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, money is a universal language. That's what money is. Money has a lot of power. You can use money in different ways. That's what I mean as a language, and you can give many messages, positive or negative, and so it's in all our interests, muslim and non-Muslim. That is investment in the country we all grow together. It's a win-win here, and so, for sure, we have to bring everybody on board. If we can articulate the real benefit of what we're doing, and we can prove it and show and demonstrate, look, this is what we're doing. This is why it benefits every single person, regardless if you're Muslim or non-Muslim, yeah, then why will people Not participate? Why will the government Hold back? There's no reason to. It's in all our interests. But the thing is we can't articulate. Our minds are so focused on Whether I am truly Sharia compliant or not, or whether this product Is not Sharia compliant oh yeah, commodity Morabah, this Tawadruk that we don't even think Of the bigger picture. We're still Stuck in our little village. That's the problem.
Speaker 2:So I mean, we've talked around All of this as well, and I'm really Conscious of time as well and of your time, so I just want to to move on to. We talked a lot about prophetic practices and the prophetic way of doing business. I think a lot of us, when we think of prophet muhammad, we think of a lot of things, but we often forget that he was an incredible business person and businessman before he became a prophet. In that way, what prophetic practices should we as business owners whether it's you know, you're running your own business or you have your own career? What aspects of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam's teachings and practices and the way he lived his life should we be applying to our businesses today?
Speaker 1:See the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was an amazing, amazing business person. Like if you, we don't delve into this side of his life often.
Speaker 1:But, really, he is the fountain of all guidance.
Speaker 1:That's what it is In his life. There's everything. I was telling my students the other day that if you look at the fiqh a book of fiqh every single chapter of fiqh is really a page and a leaf of his life, the life of the Messenger of Allah. Not only did he teach those chapters himself, he actually taught them and taught the people how to perform salah, how to do tahara, how to do zakah. He taught people. Not only did he teach, he built them into institutions. And that's in addition to the 100,000 people he transformed. And not only that. See, the fiqh is one dimension of his life. Then you have the seerah. The seerah is all about his life, out of him, educating, teaching, building systems, the Quran. Sayyidah Aisha mentions كان خلقه القرآن, the Messenger of Allah, his disposition, demeanor, was the Quran. It's like you're looking at a tangible being of the Quran, a reflection. So the messenger of Allah is this amazing three-dimensional personality from whom you can draw so much inspiration from, but he's not at the heart of the conversation and this is the biggest thing missing in Islamic finance today. The biggest thing missing in Islamic finance today is the prophetic way, nothing else, because fiqh is this kind of sharia compliance. It's a huge boundary. You know, we're talking about ESG, we're talking about maqasid, we're talking about tayyib halal. All of these things. Let's focus on the sunnah. It's all in his life. We don't need to do all of these other things. This is true, authentic. If we really want something which is grounded, it's the prophetic life. So the Messenger of Allah Was an amazing businessman. There was one of his business partners Called Saib. He comes into a gathering and everybody starts praising him that he's such a well-known business person and everything. The Messenger of Allah says أنا أعلم بكم that I know him more than any of you, and that's a praise. Because imagine Ali is being praised in the room here. أعلم بكم that I know him More than any of you. And that's a praise. Because Imagine Ali's being praised In the room here, and then I walk in and say you know what? I know how Ali is, I know how good he is. He would feel so Overwhelmed and appreciative. That's a praise, right. So the Messenger of Allah Says this about Sa'ib Nobody knows, I know how he is. Then of praise, right. So the Messenger of Allah says this about Sa'ib nobody knows, I know how he is. Then Sa'ib says to the Messenger of Allah no, no, no, like كُنتَ الشَّرِيكِ, فَنِعْمَ الشَّرِيكِ. He says to the Messenger of Allah you were my partner, my business partner, and what a business partner you are. لا تُد, you'd never quarrel or argue or fight or be difficult to deal with as a business partner. This was the message of Allah. Another time he said رَحِمَ اللَّهَ وَإِمْرَأً, سَمْحًا إِذَا بَاعًا, سَمْحًا إِذَا قَضَى, سَمْحًا إِذَا قْتَضَى. May Allah have mercy upon a going when trading, when selling, and when he demands to be paid and he follows and pursues his debtors. That allah have mercy upon a such person who's very easy going. These are like snippets from his life or how, when he would be buying and selling. I've never seen in his life where in in the books of Sira, where he's demanded a discount per se or for his own benefit, he's wanting to pay less the Sunnah typically. You'll find so many narrations where once he went to buy some trousers, so he goes to the market, he's discussing with a person In those times because you're buying and selling using gold and silver, the payment system at that time they were weighed. If I'm paying you in dirham or dinar, you need somebody to come and weigh the gold and check for its purity. So the person came to check and review the payment whether it's it's okay. So the messenger of allah tells him that way, but way in favor of the seller, make sure he gets more Than I'm supposed to give him. Another time, a lady, she came, she comes and gives a gift to the messenger of Allah. She gives cucumbers and dates the messenger of Allah. He was very like, Again, his personality. He was not a person who receives, he's a giver, that's his personality. So he comes, the gift is presented to him and he was a person who receives. He's a giver, that's his personality. So he comes, the gift is presented to him and he was a person who'd accept gifts. Why? Because when you accept a gift from somebody, the other person feels honoured. It wasn't for his own gain, because he would not take zakah. Zakah was forbidden on the Messenger of Allah. His family and him cannot take zakah. Really, yeah, it's not permissible. Even today, to this day, you're not allowed to give Zakat To the Messenger of Allah's family. He had prohibited this. And what's one of the wisdoms of this Is because think about it he could have just taken all Zakat and lived and be sustained. But no, he would not do that To keep himself away from all Suspicions or any kind of like objection. Zakah was not permissible for the Messenger of Allah. But when somebody came with a gift, he took the gift only to make the other person happy, not that he needed it Because we know so many times he spent so many months without eating meat and he'd have a few dates here and there In his household. What was there? So many times he had nothing. But that's how he lived, because he empowered Other people. So he takes the cucumbers From this lady and after a few moments he gives, he gets gold and he fills Her other hand with gold. What's For cucumbers? Look at the difference. This is his mindset, his way of being. It's not about what I get right now, it's what. How can I empower you? So as a business, your entire marketing, your entire thing is being customer centric. That's what it's all about, right? That's cute.
Speaker 2:That's true community building. That's like, really okay, let's not be insular, let's not think about how I can get one up and increase the margin. Let's. How can I really help you at every single level without this idea that I need to be focusing on profit?
Speaker 3:Forgive the pun.
Speaker 2:You know like profit in that way like sales minus cost. Anyway, it's so far removed from I don't know the way business is taught today.
Speaker 1:But why? The question is why. You should tell me the reason why is it's? Our conviction is not there. We believe our cash flows and income comes from the people's pocket. That's what it is. But if you looked at it differently and said, look, my cash flow, my income, is really from Allah, the more good I do, it's not going to harm me in any way, shape or form. Whatever is written for me is going to come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you really believe that, if you really believe that?
Speaker 3:your whole outlook will change.
Speaker 3:I'm reminded of the story, which you'll definitely be able to do more justice to than I can, but it is a hadith, I believe, involving a sahabi from whom the Prophet wanted to buy a camel right and the camel seemed like it wasn't a very good camel and couldn't walk very fast, and the Prophet rode it and was able to kind of allow it to propel somehow from the gift of Allah.
Speaker 3:And then they arrive, I think it's at the masjid after they finish their journey, and the Sahabi's super worried that the Prophet is going to say to him that he needs to take the camel back and I want my money back because it's not a good camel, because it's proven not to be very good. And then the Prophet, he gives the camel back but says no, no, you keep the money. And it was clear that the outcome was that he actually probably just wanted to give him the gift or to give more um, rather than making it a transactional arrangement and um, yeah, that's I mean you can correct me of any details, but it was about the interaction behind just the transaction and, like the um impact that you know that kind of gesture can have on people, that I think that is obviously now no longer um as present as it was at that time?
Speaker 1:Absolutely See. One is an exchange value. You go to a market. It's just an exchange value. This is what the world runs on today. But then you also have an experiential value. What experience do you go through when trading and transacting? And on top of that, there's a spiritual value, and transactions are the most common way to interact with human beings. You think about it when you, when you interact with other people an exchange and transaction one of the most common ways. So transactions become a vehicle to transmit value, different types of value. Now think about from a prophetic lens. This becomes your way to empower people. Empower and impact them positively. It's not just about becoming Muslim. It's just about how do I help you really unlock the potential in you? And this is what the Messenger of Allah was. He unlocked people that he engaged with. Simple as that.
Speaker 2:Because usually when you enter a negotiation it's very antagonistic. It's like a zero-sum game Either I win or you win. Right, but in this way it was. How do I unlock?
Speaker 3:you.
Speaker 2:How do I fix that? Subhanallah, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned there, Just in the way that, even from the way you designed an app right Like what is the user experience, Is spirituality baked into your user experience design Like everything centric.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's part of the prophetic way, like, how do I add value to you? So it's not about just spirituality meaning yes, bismillah everywhere, but, like people think, that people think to be spiritual just means you have to have a lot of arabic in there. It's not that if, and that's why I really believe, studying the life of the messenger of allah and coding that into islamic finance is what's missing now. I think that's the next leap and that's where we can really go further as an industry okay, incredible.
Speaker 2:So we're blasting like well, past time, so you get to, I'm good okay, fantastic so you are one of the most accomplished individuals I think that we've met. I'm not saying this to inflate your ego, but you've written, I think, four separate books now.
Speaker 2:You've got more qualifications than I think anyone else that I know You're constantly a lifelong learner. How do you do it? Because I saw a post that you'd written recently saying that every single day you wake up at 4 am. I've heard this from your students. I heard it in class. How do you, why, why do you do that?
Speaker 1:yeah, so it's. I guess it's one of the blessings of allah that I can do this like, even if I don't put put an alarm on, my eyes will open at 3, 55, 3, 56, literally. That's how it's become now, and if I don't get get up, something happens to me. I can't go back to sleep. I have to get up and do something. I'm an addict of waking up at that time. I have to do it. Since when? I think since 2012. Since 2012.
Speaker 3:What happened then?
Speaker 1:Well, the story is and people might have heard of this online I was in South Africa, so whilst I was a student, I used to stay awake till 2 o'clock, that was like all students, stay awake till 2 o'clock, 1, 2 o'clock, and work, work, work.
Speaker 1:But I had a friend from America, a classmate of mine. He used to sleep so early, like 9 pm, 9.30, and I used to say what type of student are you that you sleep at nine o'clock? Which student sleeps so early? When are you going to study if you're sleeping in bed? What he used to do was he used to wake up at three, four o'clock and we all used to stay awake till one o'clock. So he just told me, he challenged me one day. He said why don't you do what I do? He said sleep at 9 30 when I go to bed. You go to your bed and sleep and let's wake up together at you know four, four o'clock and let's you know, let's have a conversation then.
Speaker 1:so it's a deal the next day comes 9 30, I go to my bed, I go to sleep. He goes to bed then four o'clock no, he woke me up. He said wake up because we have a dorm kind of thing yeah so he woke me up.
Speaker 1:He said come. So I woke up and at that time we used to perform tahajjud, right, so we used to pray In South Africa. It was part of the you have to do these things, part of your training. So that's another thing. Training as a Mufti Is not just about what you read, it's about your practices and actions. So every day we had to perform Tahajjud, every single day. It was part of our Syllabus and it would be checked have.
Speaker 1:So that day when I woke up, wow, my mind was so sharp and so clear. I've never seen so vividly and felt so good. My mind was just you know, it's like I had a new neural networks, if you can call it that. There's so many connections being made in my mind I've never thought of. I felt so good. And that time between four and eight, it's just so slow motion, everything goes so smooth, so good. And that time between 4 and 8, it's just so slow motion, everything goes so smooth, so slowly. In that time and that's when I realised the barakah. In this time, the efficiency, the productivity between 4 and 8 is of a different calibre. I could never find that kind of like impact, that kind of productivity, that energy in any other part of the day, and that's because the message of Allah made dua for this time. So from that day onwards, my whole life changed and every day there's a 4am start.
Speaker 2:So do you recommend that everyone should be waking up at 4am and beginning that day then?
Speaker 1:If you have a strong enough reason to live or to perform and be productive, that's when you've understood who you are and what you are. When your goal is bigger than you, your goal is bigger than you and your life. Then you have no moment to spare, because that thing is bigger than you and your life. Then you will wake up at four o'clock, without a shadow of a doubt. Nothing will keep you in bed after four. I promise you nothing, because that thing is so big and so you need to. But you need to sleep early to make it practical, you still need your six hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you sleep at 10 o'clock. Yeah, you'll wake up at four. Now, that time between four and eight, there's no noise, everything's calm. You go downstairs in your own house and you'll hear noises you've never heard before.
Speaker 3:The foxes. It's amazing, though it's amazing.
Speaker 1:And that's a time when you have to Work your mind. You're there, you're working away, it's good. I would advise everybody to read some Quran. Perhaps, before you do anything, read some Salah, two rakat Salah, just a little bit of Tahajjud Short, and then get into your work. That'll give you some more power.
Speaker 2:I would love to say I did this on purpose, but for the last few days I have been doing this, not in preparation for this podcast, but just as a consequence of having two kids under twos. You often just wake up and I thought, okay, let me just give this a go, and I can attest to it like alhamdulillah. It's the most productive point of the day where you have no distractions and all the emails and the calls don't start, which they usually do at 8 am. It's like let me just use this for me to do some real deep work, Real, real deep work, content-heavy work, which usually throughout the day you're just answering an email here, doing this, going on here, going on socials, and then the day's over and it's like what have I actually achieved? Is over and it's like what have I actually achieved? Whereas here it's like, okay, if you want to, for example, write a book or something, I think that would be the period in which you're actually getting most of your work. I'm sure that's what you've done exactly.
Speaker 1:So all my heavy lifting yeah and my deep work is done at that time, everything. So people ask where do you get the time to do this? Well, you've got the time as well, yeah, but you're just sleeping. That's the truth. You're just sleeping. It's all the truth. You're just sleeping. It's all the work you did in that time, so there you go, there you go, give it a go and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2:Okay, we are very short on time and I'm conscious that we're meant to meet our brother, umar Khalil, for lunch as well, and I notice he's calling you on your phone, so apologies, umar. So we actually put out something on X the other day letting people know that you'd be on the podcast and seeing if they had any questions for you. So if you'd like, we can jump to those.
Speaker 3:Let's go for it and see whether you can do it.
Speaker 2:We'll go through a couple and see what people have to say. Okay so this one is from at Jabir what are Mufti Faraz's thoughts on a waqf resolving the home buying solution? And I think this is referencing an earlier tweet from Sadiq Sadiq Dhorasad, where he talked about what if a waqf was created to create, which would buy up a number of homes and in that way we could provide them to Muslims truly interest-free?
Speaker 1:The thing with that is people want home ownership. People want to own assets. Now, if you have a work which owns I'm assuming the work will own the assets perhaps you never have ownership. How can you empower individuals? Yeah okay, so true, ownership would never be, and to to excel, you need ownership of assets.
Speaker 2:That is what unlocks growth and for the work to keep on generating revenue. In this scenario, I imagine people would have to continue to pay rent potentially they're releasing exactly, so it might not fulfill long term okay, what qualifications would mufti for us recommend one to study if they want to learn about islamic finance and potentially have a career in it?
Speaker 1:okay, so many career paths in islamic finance. You just have to find whether you're a legal professional, an accountant into financial services, or you're doing management or you're MBA. Whatever you're doing, but with qualifications. It's so important you consult and make the right decision. For instance, I was about to do a two-year MBA at Warwick University before my PhD. Warwick is like you know highly regarded.
Speaker 1:Highly regarded for its MBA. I got accepted. I think it cost about £40,000. I paid a small deposit for like £1,000, whatever. But I rang 50 different people People who I look up to across the industry in Islamic finance and out of Islamic finance Say look. People who I look up to across the industry in Islamic finance and out of Islamic finance say look, this is what I want to do. These are my reasons. Why can you please poke holes and critique my reasons? Is it worth my investment of two years? And there was a few of them from the 50. Many of them said, yeah, well, go ahead. You know it's good, good, good, good. But there was one or two people who really changed and challenged me and I was happy to forego my deposit, then waste my two year uh two years of my time and I I backed off from the course.
Speaker 1:Although it's a phenomenal course, it wasn't a thing for me at that stage in my life. I didn't really need it why was it, though?
Speaker 2:did you think it wouldn't really excel your life goal in that way?
Speaker 1:yeah, because it's what is it adding to me? I'm doing much of the kind of business mba type stuff anyway. I'm, I'm living it, I'm doing it. So what is this going to bring? I'm not, I don't need that network, because why did you do an mba?
Speaker 2:when people ask me like why did you do an mba? Why did I do an mba? Uh, for two things brand and network. That's really it. Everything that you learn on an m you can learn for free. Exactly, and I wanted the knowledge.
Speaker 1:For me it was more about the knowledge, because I'm a seeker of knowledge, right. So everybody said why are you wasting your time and I do something on PhD? So then some people suggested I should do a PhD like focus on one area and unlock a new area, and that's on artificial intelligence. So I'm just working on creating a Sharia governance framework for artificial intelligence. I've almost finished it. I'm in my on my conclusion of the matter at the moment.
Speaker 3:Right, I remember you first talking about it during the course. Yeah, it's been must have been, an ongoing project. So it's been two, almost nearly two, years now right, but.
Speaker 1:But so for the question, for the person asking the question, I think it's really important. Don't just do a course for the sake of it. Understand the value from it, what you're going to gain. Sometimes you need courses are like passports. Some qualifications are like passports. These are open doors for you, you just need them. It's not negotiables. But at the same time, in Islamic finance, I would recommend doing like the IOV, cs, csaa qualification, this Certified Sharia Advisor and Auditor. That is just a good all-round program which gives you insights to how the Sharia products work and the different Sharia standards in IOFI. You get a good understanding of that. But then it's really then okay, are you an accountant, are you a lawyer? You have to find opportunities in that space If you want to go down the Sharia advisory route. That's a whole different conversation.
Speaker 2:How do you feel about well, I think people fall on two sides of this debate that you should go and gain experience in a conventional institution, say, like a major investment bank or a consultancy or a law firm, and then you should come over into Islamic finance and join one of these fintechs or an Islamic bank in that way and take the experiences you've gained in one of these massive institutions, take it over there. Or should you start off at the ground level within an Islamic bank or an Islamic finance firm?
Speaker 1:As long as your job and your work and your role is not haram like you're not doing something directly problematic then I think it's great gaining experience it's always good. So you learn from different industries, different firms and everything. Get the best from there, because there's many good people out there working in those firms. It's reality, Good experience. So get that. Bring that wealth of knowledge then in the Islamic finance industry and empower a new generation. Got it.
Speaker 3:Okay. Okay, and as a follow-up to that, just quickly, for those who are in the industry but who may find themselves assisting in things which are not, you know, halal, not compliant, what advice would you give to for them who want to pivot away from that but might find themselves sort of almost so in the thick of it that it's hard sometimes to break free from that? What was your kind of?
Speaker 1:yeah, this is a tough one because everybody's situation is different. Right so to generalize the answer. As you know, islamic advice can rarely be generalized. That's the truth. Everybody has their own contextual realities, and some of these, exactly this is what it's all about, because look, once a person came to the messenger of Allah and he said can I kiss my wife whilst fasting? And he said no, you can't. Another person came and he said yes, you can. So what's the reason why? What's the difference? Why did he give two different answers?
Speaker 3:because those two people were different why were they?
Speaker 1:how were they different?
Speaker 3:without going into detail one of them. This, without going into detail, this reminds me of our local imam.
Speaker 2:Boy he kissed him Talk to him. He told us this story during Ramadan. This is probably the raciest this podcast has ever gone in. Forgive me if you're a bit sensitive to this.
Speaker 3:He said were you there? Yeah, I know what you're saying.
Speaker 2:He said something like when I was a young man and I first got married in Egypt to my wife. I was 21 years old. Subhanallah, I couldn't even lie in the same bed as my wife when I was fasting. Now, alhamdulillah, I'm in my late 70s. I can lie there all day, all night. Nothing will happen. So I think it's something to do with that right.
Speaker 1:Exactly Just the way that you might react.
Speaker 1:So one of them was an elderly gentleman, an elderly companion, and he said yes, you can, because it's not going to lead you to breaking your fast, whereas the first questioner, or the person who said you can't and you shouldn't, he was fairly young. But that just shows you your answers are very different and that's what you learn when you're studying iftar and becoming a mufti how to contextualize the knowledge or how to give the right advice to the right people. So, coming back to your question, I would say look, you need to think about yourself again. Understand what you're about. What is it like? Are you doing something problematic? If it is problematic, how problematic is it really like? What does it mean to be problematic in the first sense? That's the first question that you need to figure out, and many, to be honest. There's many people who work in the city who've reached out to me personally with their own issues lawyers and people who work in investment banks and everything. When you talk through the details, you realize, look, these are some things. Then they can pivot away from those things in their own firm and find something more meaningful.
Speaker 1:But eventually you want to do something which really adds meaning to you overall, because you can't have that energy to wake up every day at four o'clock if you don't love what you do. So that's why you can do it, because you love what you do. It's like your identity is what you're doing and it's so meaningful and fulfilling. But if you're not, it's very difficult. The only thing that motivates you then is one thing, which is money, nothing else, and that's why, if you really want to live a meaningful, purposeful life, you need to do something which actually aligns with who you are and what you're about and you find meaning. If you don't do that, you'll work till you're 65, 67, you'll retire well done, but then that's when you think was it really worth it?
Speaker 2:those questions are absolutely okay. This this is the last one I think it talks to. We might have answered this already. This is from at T, underscore XHXD. What's this thing I'm hearing about Sukuk not being permissible or the way it currently is structured practice issued not being permissible. I might have misunderstood, but I believe, brothers, certain people in the industry have previously mentioned this before.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think Sukuk on not not sharia complaint. I don't think that's the case right, because you have every sukuk must have a sharia board. I think the questions are on can they be improved in their structuring? Is there any better way to make it less light right than it is already, like we're stripping it from. It's, like you know, core requirements, only is it a way where we can have more like, as I mentioned, more equitable from a permissible level. Can we make them more equitable and is there a way to make it more equitable?
Speaker 2:I think that's the discussion right now and I think it goes back to that point is a. Sharia scholar saying that it's not permissible. No. I think that that's what it comes back to and, like you said, if you're not a student of knowledge, if you're not a scholar, in that way you shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Look, if somebody's saying something is not Sharia compliant or halal, the first thing you need to see is that person qualified to make that judgment or not? And that doesn't mean that. Has he actually trained? Can he articulate and demonstrate to you? Look, I've studied this many years with these scholars and I've got Ijazah. These are my certifications and qualifications, because I can do that right now. Any student can do that and it's not about boasting, it's a reality. Every single scholar. They should have a sunnah or years and wealth of knowledge or teachers saying, yes, this person is fit. Imam Malik did not give fatwa until 70 people attested that he can give fatwa 70 great scholars. That's when he started speaking, imam Malik, and even then you'd have people coming to him from Morocco, from Iraq and other places and they would ask him 40 questions and he's narrated that from 35, he said I don't know. From 40 questions, he said I don't know. And it was this Imam Malik, the Imam of Medina.
Speaker 2:I wanted to this was a follow-up on your PhD point on AI. I think with the advent of artificial intelligence and what it means for Islamic finance or Islam as a whole Before at this point, people would value knowledge so much that they would travel for miles and miles at a point where it would take days and days to come and study at the feet of these great scholars, right Just to seek an answer to your question. Now you can type it into an AI engine to Google and you can find an answer at your fingertips.
Speaker 1:Do you think that's?
Speaker 2:devaluing knowledge to an extent, and do you think there's a danger to Islam in that way?
Speaker 1:Do you think there's a danger to Islam in that way. These are aids, as long as they're used as aids. But, as I said, knowledge is not just the text. If you think knowledge is text, then that's not knowledge. You're missing the whole point. This is the whole key that knowledge is for practice. So if you have an abundance of information available, but your practice, your humility, your knowledge, your understanding, your disposition, your being, the way you feel, has not changed, you don't really have knowledge. Knowledge creates transformation in people. If you're not being transformed on every metric, you don't have knowledge, you just have. I mean, we have internet already. We can do a Google search. You've got the entire Sahih al-Bukhari, sahih Muslim, everything on your phone, literally of all the hadith. Yet why are our lives a mess? So we've got information available, but there's no knowledge in our lives. And just coming back to your point On sukoop, by the way, and every single objection In Islamic finance, are Sharia scholars the ones saying this is not Sharia compliant?
Speaker 1:Who's talking? Let's look at that. The most qualified people to make those judgments are who? The Sharia scholars. If they are not the ones making those comments, then how can it be not Sharia compliant? They have the greatest amanah. They have to answer to Allah, not the industry. The scholars are answerable to Allah. They'll be held responsible by Allah. Do you think that's a light responsibility, by any chance? That's why Ibn al-Qayyim, his book, is called what I'lam al-Muwaqee'in, an Rabbil Alameen about muftis.
Speaker 1:These people are signing off the designatories of Allah. They're representatives of Allah on earth. So we have a direct responsibility Accountability to Allah. They're the ones responsible. Let them deal with it. The scholars. If you're not a scholar, why do you want that burden for you? Do in your thing. The scholars write. The ibadah of non-scholars Is simply asking scholars and practicing. Your job is so easy. If you're not a scholar, your job is so easy. That's why the people of is so easy. If you're not a scholar, your job is so easy. That's why the people of Badr, the people of Sahaba of Badr, one companion, he writes that I observed 300 companions from the people of Badr and these people are all forgiven. The Messenger of Allah said these people are forgiven. They would always try to evade answering and talking about Islam and they would wish that somebody else speaks on Islam.
Speaker 2:Oh, just so that they didn't have that accountability.
Speaker 1:So imagine how the gravity of speaking on these matters. So if we are not scholars. Let the scholars say what's right and wrong. We just got to act within their guidance and we're okay.
Speaker 2:In fairness, I think sometimes this comes up. It's probably not a good thing to have right at the end of the podcast, but I think this comes up sometimes because people feel that if we just say that everything is okay, there will be no further innovation and we'll never get away from level one or level zero where we are right now, and get towards that more prophetic level of finance. And that's where I think the challenge comes in from. But I understand it's it's all about give and take and sometimes you can go way too much the other way and all it results in is the public being confused, people giving up on Islamic finance entirely and ultimately the industry will go backwards.
Speaker 1:I mean, we can't have extremes. It's both two extremes. One extreme is saying nothing is Sharia compliant, right? That's a new type of extremism. That's there.
Speaker 1:One thing is everything is okay, but that's why I said it's a team effort. The scholars will put the boundaries for you. It's a job of the practitioners now to work within those boundaries and push boundaries. So look, this is what we want to do. We want to create more. That's not the job of the Sharia scholar. His job is to tell you okay, assess the product, this can work, this can work. Test with, have, like you know, your Sharia scholar should be your soundboard and then you're fine. So it's a team effort. It's not an either or. We have a long journey, long, long journey. It's going to take time. Let it take time. Let us try our best, let us have different products. If you say everything is not Sharia compliant and you're the only Sharia compliant one, that's not going to help anybody. You're not going to win like that. That's not going to help anybody. You're not going to win like that. You're going to lose like that in the long term. That marketing never works. People can see through it.
Speaker 2:That's the truth, true okay, I think that's the way to end it, ali. Was there anything else from you?
Speaker 3:no, just once again. It's an absolute honor for you to come and share your wisdom with us today and, the same way I recall from our classes you reflecting on, you know your teaching of the Ibrahim Desai, especially after he passed away, and I'll never forget that. You know that lesson that was dedicated to that. Yeah, I'm just so indebted to all of your wisdom and teachings and I hope that we can continue to have these conversations and, inshallah, make an impact in our lives and in the industry as a whole, inshallah, and become closer to the practice of the Prophet salall upon him.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much no, you're most welcome, it was a pleasure thank you for listening to the Muslim Money Talk podcast.
Speaker 2:If you like what you heard, then please subscribe to Muslim Money Talk. Wherever you might have been listening to this, give us a like and share it with someone who you think might be interested. It really, really helps us out. Thank you, assalamu alaikum, and see you.