Muslim Money Talk
Introducing the Muslim Money Talk Podcast, a place for all things Muslim and Money related.
Every week we'll be sitting down with Founders, leaders and industry experts from across multiple disciplines to discuss lessons learned, mistakes made and most importantly 'How they did it?'.
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Muslim Money Talk
The Riba Expert: Broken Marriages, Financial Literacy, Leadership Lessons | Omar Khaliel - MMT Ep 34
He’s back! By popular demand, the founder of Riba Free Foundation Omar Khaliel returns to the Muslim Money Talk podcast to update what he’s been working on for the past year to educate the masses on the dangers of riba.
How does it affect society, from crime to marriages? Are Muslims desensitised to this issue? Why should non-Muslims care about this more? Find out more in this fantastic episode.
This podcast is hosted by Areeb Siddiqui, the founder and CEO of Kestrl, the app that helps people to grow their wealth without compromise
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Show Notes:
0:00 - Opening
02:40 - What is the Riba Free Foundation?
04:40 - Effects on marriages and society
14:01 - Are Muslims desensitised to riba?
16:37 - Why younger generations care more
19:20 - Moving away from the Islamic argument
22:01 - Developing the mindset of a custodian
28:54 - Teaching students at university
31:00 - Addressing the critics of Islamic Finance
37:26 - What to be excited about
44:00 - What do leaders of tomorrow need to learn
But if we look at society today, riba is destroying marriages, it's destroying relationships, it's having an effect on the level of crime going up. This is why Allah Azza wa Jal has given it such a severe prohibition Because, remember, the Qur'an is about social justice, the major sins in Islam, like murder, theft, rape they didn't have the same level of prohibition because riba was much more dangerous upon society. Now, when you start to develop that mindset that actually you know what I'm a fund manager, a custodian, an ambassador for Allah, what an honour he's given us you then start to change how you make financial decisions, as opposed to thinking actually, this wealth belongs to me, so this is the greatest man to walk the face of the earth, saying I'm your servant.
Speaker 2:If he's our servant, what does it make us? In today's episode, I'm really pleased to be rejoined by a very special guest, umar Khalil, the founder and CEO of the Ribber Free Foundation, a charitable organization dedicated to educating and empowering people to escape the trap of interest. Umar shares his story about what he's been doing since he spoke to us last time, how he's been educating people up and down the country on the dangers of Riba and how the Muslim youths of tomorrow should be educating themselves to become better leaders. As always, I'm your host, arif Siddiqui, and this is Muslim Money Talk.
Speaker 2:Before we begin, we actually noticed only about 10% of you are subscribed to the podcast, so if you like what you're listening to and you want to hear more from us and see more things Muslim and money related, then please consider subscribing and, of course, leaving this episode a like and share it with your friends. Leave us a comment or a review, because it really really does help us out and help more people to find us. Thank you, now back to the show and welcome back. You're our first ever guest to be returning to the podcast, so thank you so much why?
Speaker 1:alaikum salam, warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, honored I.
Speaker 2:I don't know why you had me back as for the second time, but, uh, um, it's an absolute honor and privilege to be back our last episode, I think, warranted a follow-up, because we talked about so much around the macro issues with RIBA, how it was breaking Britain, as we've put it, as well as a myriad of other things that we talked about to do with RIBA, but we didn't really get into the weeds of solutioning.
Speaker 2:That's really what I wanted to do with you today. What are the big issues that we could be solving, and who's actually going about solving that today? Yeah, that's really what I wanted to touch upon with you.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, interesting.
Speaker 2:So, without further ado, should we just go into it.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's do it. Bismillah.
Speaker 2:All right. So first question you are the founder and the CEO of River Free Foundation. What exactly is that?
Speaker 1:as a reminder to the listeners, Bismillah, ar-rahman, ar-rahim, alhamdulillah, rabbil Alameen, wassalatu, wassalamu ala rasoolillah wa ala ahli sahbihi ajma'een. So I know last time we went a very long, complicated way around explaining RFF, but I'm going to be very, very blunt, short and simple today. One of the fundamental reasons that the rff exists, was born and you know is is having I would like to think having an impact on society or especially within our communities, is because we want to help people leave a river free lifestyle. Okay, and, like I mentioned last time, we've got three key pillars.
Speaker 1:On that and off those pillars you've got various projects and initiatives that are running. Number one is the education, number two is the advocacy and number three is the directory, and all three of those have a theme. So you educate, you advocate and then you guide to the actual solutions, because it's just not enough to educate and then advocate for something where there's no viable, economic, commercially viable propositions to take on. And I'm very pleased, very, very pleased, to see the growth of our particular fintech industry, which is now providing viable solutions in the short to medium term. But I'm very, very positive and not only hopeful, inshallah, that in the future that they will provide better value as well.
Speaker 2:I think the next year is going to be future, that they will provide better value as well. I think the next year is going to be very exciting in Islamic fintech as well as Islamic banking.
Speaker 1:I think the next year is definitely going to be excited, but I'm looking five year spans, 10 year spans, and that's where I think the value will evolve and grow and that's where my focus lies to make sure that we are supporting organizations that have a vision to become organizations that stand the test of time for 100 years plus.
Speaker 2:so in a in a single line. River free foundation is a charitable organization that educates, advocates and guides people towards a river free lifestyle yes, but what? Exactly does that mean? What is a river free lifestyle?
Speaker 1:so that's a good question. You see, we think that a river is just a matter of money. Um, but if we look at society today, river is destroying marriages, it's destroying relationships, it's having effect on the level of crime going up, right, uh, if you'll see a a link between poverty and inflation, the effect it has on society. So I think when we talk about you see, I could easily say we want to guide people to rip off their products and services. For me, that's not enough.
Speaker 1:Islam is a holistic way of life and we have so much information and examples and role models in there to show us how to lead that way of life that is going to lead us to success and allow us to have contentment. You see what I mean. So I think it's important that it's about the lifestyle, right, because you know it's a holistic way of life. So it's like saying you know what I'm going to as a business owner. I'm not going to worry about how much I take from the bank, but I'm happy selling alcohol. You see what I mean. So Islam has a holistic way and what I mean by that is we've got to look at everything, we've got to have a full bird's eye view and we can't just live according to our own desires and whims. So it's important to understand that. And so when we discuss this internally in terms of the lifestyle angle, you know you can then start to talk about. You know, like I mentioned, contentment, happiness, how much time you spend giving back to society, educating, so let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:What, in your opinion, is the biggest harm that ribbo interest causes? On society, because you talked about relationships, marriages, breaking down um general inflation, societal unrest. What is the biggest issue?
Speaker 1:if you had to sum it up, there's many issues, but the biggest issue is your enslavement to debt okay right.
Speaker 1:That's the biggest issue is because when you are enslaved to something, it affects your thinking, it affects the way you act, it affects your decision making. I'll give an example somebody who has to pay off a 25-year mortgage right, as opposed to somebody who's a successful entrepreneur or a business person, whatever, hasn't taken the mortgage right. Um, they, they either rent or they've paid. They, you know they had the ability to fund their house through cash or whatever means okay, if I'm I'm sure and there's data on this, by the way, this is a scientific data on this but the person who takes on the mortgage right is less happier, right, it could potentially shorten the life expectancy, right, due to the stress. Right, and they're constantly worrying about how I'm going to pay off my mortgage.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean? Whereas opposed to the other person who doesn't think about. When you think about something too much, it really affects your decision making. Do you see what I mean? Expect it and and when? It affects your decision making? And it see what I mean? Expect it and and when it affects your decision making and it makes you sad. It could lead you to depression. You then start to make funny decisions with your money yeah right.
Speaker 1:Then you go down the route of escapism, right? This is how it starts to develop and affect relationships. Do you see what I mean? You might be at the office all day worrying, stressing about okay, do you know, I can't make the mortgage payment for this month, but you don't want to tell your wife, or you don't want to tell your children because you don't want to impart, you don't want to pass on that stress to them, right? So that's more of an interpersonal angle from the relationship perspective, right, being enslaved to debt.
Speaker 1:The other one, obviously, you know I briefly touched on crime. It was interesting. I was looking at a study and they said that, um, in unimpoverished areas, under deprived areas within the uk, um, there was a direct fall in theft, for example, but there was an increase in digital related fraud. So what, what they were, what was happening was as top as technology advanced, right, criminals were getting caught out more, okay, and then they got more savvy with the way they started to earn money. But the point here is, if there was enough jobs within the economy, if there was less greed in the economy, if there was a redistribution of wealth which Riba works against right, you would create more opportunities for people not to go down a route that they don't necessarily want to. So, for example, you know that there's there's organized people that are working criminal networks. I'm not talking about them, I'm the alarming statistic. Within the pandemic post pandemic 2022, they said there was a. There was a almost 10 increase in first-time offenders really yes, shoplifting, shoplifting, burglary.
Speaker 2:Those stats by the Met Police.
Speaker 1:So you could find these stats. There was a study done, the data's from the Office of National Statistics, okay, and there was a data done by. In fact, there's a few research studies done on where they're looking at the correlation between poverty, the cost of living, crisis and crime and crime, yeah, yeah. So that was really interesting because the one thing that you don't want to do, especially when we can talk about the crime rates in London, right, and they were saying that the urban areas are more affected, but it was alarming to see that now people are using food banks, for example, and the funny thing was I live kind of just outside London and there's a very affluent area where I live and people were shocked to see people from that area at food banks. Now they've got five bedroom houses that are worth lots of money. They're struggling to make ends meet and they were shopping at food banks.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean? So you're talking about how riba affects society like this is why allah azawajal has given it such a severe prohibition, because, remember, the quran is about social justice. Be catering for society, right, and this is why I always tell people. By the way, you know the the major sins in islam like murder, theft, rape. They didn't have the same level of prohibition because riba was much more dangerous upon society. Do you see what I mean? So like there are so many issues with it, but the biggest one, I have to say, is is enslaving someone's mind to debt.
Speaker 2:Is that how it plays into people's marriages? Because you mentioned, marriage is breaking apart because of ripper so there's again.
Speaker 1:It's quite nuanced. Every scenario, every marriage, every relationship is is different. But if somebody is not able to earn an income, right and that may be for a number of reasons that is, maybe he's overqualified, right, or the mortgage payments have gone up because the interest rates have increased and he can't afford them, right, that has a knock-on effect. That has a direct knock-on effect, right. And see, the thing is, some argue that our lives are controlled by the bank of interest rate. Right, if they increase it, and my income is x, my expenses are now going to become y and they're increasing. And so I have to now make a decision to say actually, you know what? I can't send my children to their gymnastics class yeah well, I've got to cut back somewhere.
Speaker 1:I can't buy that I can't take my family on a vacation, right?
Speaker 2:it's very true I it's incredibly timely. If you watch the news last night there was a huge segment on inflation's hit 2.5%. Now, as interest rates are falling, a lot of people just can't afford to do their typical weekly shop anymore. The price of meat has increased by like 150 to 200%, depending on what you're buying. 150 to 200, depending on what you're buying. A lot of people have to make like real concerted choices with just their daily lives, what they buy what they feed their kids.
Speaker 1:There were people when the energy crisis was happening in the pandemic right. There were people sleeping in their cars, right. And then you got various money experts coming online saying well, you know, saving money tips, right, keep charge your phone, switch the socket off, don't leave your sockets on, don't overconsume water. They were given all these kinds of tips to save money. The thing is that, if we come back to the crux of the matter, the system is rewarding the people with having money for just having money. That's the issue We've got to refocus.
Speaker 1:Remember, allah says in Surah Baqarah right, there's a distinct difference Between trade and riba. Trade is something Like, for example, you've launched Kestrel. How much time effort have you put in To launching Kestrel? Blood, sweat and tears, sleepless nights, worry, that's economic activity. You're trying to build value For your customers and society, right? Whereas somebody who just has money ie a bank can sit there. They can potentially invest in kestrel right, not an equity investment and say, okay, you know, we're going to give you a loan. We don't care how kestrel does, but at this date, on each month, we expect to see that loan repayment. Do you see what I mean? Mean, so the system is severely flawed and we've got to look at that because you know, I know, like you mentioned earlier, we talked about the macroeconomic aspects, right, and we're now trying to focus more on the micro, but it's unsustainable. We are heading for another financial crash, right, because GDP is not in line with debt, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I right, yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's the crux of the matter, especially when we look at it from a Muslim perspective. I don't think it is just an issue that affects Muslims. I think we've made that abundantly clear.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:That, yes, we have a prohibition within our holy book that says that riba is forbidden, but it's very clear that this is something impacting people at all levels of society, whoever you are. But do you think, as Muslims, we've grown a little bit desensitized to the issue of where we're often very focused on? Okay, let's pray five times a day, let's avoid alcohol, let's uh make sure we're not? We're avoiding pork or haram foods, but when it comes to river, people are kind of a little bit more relaxed. When it comes to it, is that because people don't understand it as much? Or do you think there's like a general sense of hopelessness, like I don't really know what to do? I have to keep my money at a bank. It's not like I can just store cash in my house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, again, you know, when you kind of do a deep dive into why we desensitize this issue and this is why we went with the education Education is really, really important in this I think you've got to come to the conclusion that a certain age, demographic and certain generation of people that have lived a majority of their life to a certain degree right, have that level of wisdom and maybe retired. They are not necessarily going to be our key target audience here. Okay, we just got to be honest about that and they have their set views that generally won't change because they've been brought up in a day and era where they didn't see any root out, but change because they've been brought up in a day in an era where they didn't see any route out, but mainly because they didn't understand the subject matter right also.
Speaker 2:They didn't have any solution.
Speaker 1:They didn't, they did. They did, yeah, they didn't have solutions. We're a fairly nascent industry, right, especially the fintech industry, right, but they you know banks, financial institutions and they didn't go far and wide enough. And that's where the criticism comes from in islamic finance, right, which I'm sure that we will probably delve into, but sometimes the criticism may be justified, but sometimes it's very unjustified, right? Sometimes it can be very, very harsh.
Speaker 1:I think our religion always teaches us to have a positive mindset, right, always strive right for excellence, and I think that's where I'll rather focus my energy. But coming back to the issue of desensitization, it definitely exists, right. I mean, I gave the example earlier of I've had this conversation with many business owners right, especially in the halal restaurant industry, where they are happy to sell as, either serve alcohol or take out serving alcohol, but, you know, due to financing needs and sometimes there's genuine arguments, right, because we don't have enough viable solutions. For, you know, going to a financial intermediary or a financial institution simply just to get working capital or funds, right, that's something that does need to be solved and Islam has very, very strict criteria on that right. But I would say that, with the youth in particular now, and I'm happy to touch on some of the educational programs that I've been doing. Recently. We've had some phenomenal feedback, absolute phenomenal feedback, in what is done to their decision making, what is done to their confidence, what is done to their knowledge base.
Speaker 2:Right, so talk to me about that, like what. What are you doing to engage with the youth around the education piece, and why are they engaging with it so much more so than you know their parents or their grandparents' generation?
Speaker 1:did. So, you know, first of all we have to commend the first immigrant generations. You know that came to this country my grandfather was one of them and you know children of the third generation here now, my kids Now. They came here and they just grafted and they, you know, they built infrastructure like the massage aids and and they wanted to provide for their families. And they've done that and they sacrificed their lives doing it Right. So we commend them for it and we respect them for it.
Speaker 1:You know, sometimes we have these very emotional, heated conversations, right, and sometimes we come across in a manner where it's disrespectful, but the intention is not meant to be disrespectful. I see this a lot play out because at the moment I have many youngsters approaching me saying my father has invested in particular stocks and shares or an investment, and I think it's it's questionable, can you please? Then they said to me is it questionable? I've had people say to me could you have a conversation with my father or my mother, right, and explain to them the harms of riba or insurance or something like this? Like I get those requests, do you see what I mean? And I say, look, I'm happy to, but it's better you as their son or their daughter. It comes from them. I'll educate you and army with the knowledge, and it's better you do it. And if you still feel that it's better that you know, either show them one of our clips or some of our content and me to have a a frank, personal, respectful conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to do so, right I think it's very hard with a parent yeah that's why they're asking for a third party to come in and almost do an intervention. But it's hard for a parent to listen to a child.
Speaker 1:But look at, look at this. I have 80, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 year old students and young students doing GCSEs coming to me, saying to me, can you have a conversation with my, my parent or my sibling? Right, they are thinking about the issue of riba and they're interested in the subject matter, whereas the parents are more desensitized to it. Right, because it comes back to the, the, the issue in their day and age. There wasn't enough solutions. There wasn't enough solutions, there wasn't enough awareness, there wasn't enough education.
Speaker 1:And now, obviously, with the growth of Islamic not just Islamic finance, but Islamic fintech right, fintech is, you know, tech and fintech is still deemed to be cool. Right, if you speak to, if you go to a careers fair, what do you want to do? Yeah, I want to learn my own fintech. Right, I want to go into investment bank or whatever. It's a cool thing to do for the youth. Do you see what I mean? So, people like yourselves and others in the industry, you've got to understand that you're now role models and there's a responsibility that comes with that. Do you see what I mean? And that's why the ethics and the conduct in building these propositions Are unquestionable and they have to be paramount.
Speaker 2:It sounds like these youth, it sounds like the youth are approaching it from a very Islamic lens, like okay, it's forbidden here in the quran. We need to ensure that everyone, everyone around us, understands this and is moving away from it. But are you also doing the education sides, not just from the religious perspective, but from the economics perspective as well?
Speaker 1:I, I think I think this is a safe thing to say. We need to move away from the islamic side, right, the islamic side is very, very clear, right, and the reason why I say that is because we need to start having this conversation mainstream, right. As you know, recently I I went um, I was invited to a, the, the libden business network, and it's the first time I had somebody from islamic finance there and I and I went in and I just explained what sharia means and they were so welcoming and engaging, okay, and they, they knew that there was a direct link and correlation and intersection between ethical finance, or ethics in general, and islamic finance. Do you see what I mean? I would rather be having these conversations where we're having more engagement, breaking down barriers and having the economic conversation, because it's the economic conversation that affects everyone's lives. For example, it's very easy for me to have an educational seminar and say the Dubai is haram, right, for a Muslim, for a believer, yeah, but to somebody who doesn't follow the Islamic faith, that doesn't make much sense and it doesn't mean much. Do you see what I mean? So I think we've got to move away from the angle of it know, just calling it haram or impermissible, whatever, and we've got to really talk about eradicating the societal harms and the effect of it. Do you see what I mean? Um, and, and that's where I'm very, very pleased to see where the youth are thinking along the lines, because these are people, uh, that either at university or going into university and they're questioning things. They see, here's the really, really important thing.
Speaker 1:Right, when, when we are doing these educational seminars and so currently, so formally, we launched our first full day, um, uh, financial literacy program, which was from nine to six, um, and I thought people would be kind of like going right, you know, falling, you know, dozing off towards the end of the day, they were so motivated to stay right. Were they mainly young people attending? There were young people that working professionals. I'm currently doing a four-week program at queen mary university, right, with students, and I've had students come up to me saying um, you know, talking about my particular style of teaching and because most of my literacy programs is focused on mindset right, it's affecting the mindset, because we know financial literacy education is lacking. We talked about the statistics last time.
Speaker 1:To be honest, I don't even need to mention statistics, it's a known fact. You ask anybody. They don't teach it in schools. Everybody wants access to this knowledge, and so the problem is you want to be able to educate, and what I mean by that is you want to enable people to make good financial decisions. Now, in order to make good financial decisions, they've got to have a good understanding of how to make financial decisions right, and in order to develop a good understanding of making financial decisions, you've got to develop the correct mindset and mentality. That's what it comes down to. How do you do that? What is that mindset?
Speaker 1:I think and Islam has a specific philosophy on that but I think finance, generic finance, if you actually study the subject matter of finance, right, and this is why I link it to contentment, because in a day and age where we see lots of doom and gloom on the news and you know some people are very disillusioned with life, right, and you've got to come back to what is it that makes you happy, or what is it that makes you content? Right, I like the word contentment. Reason, because Happiness is very subjective, but contentment is knowing to be happy Within the means that Allah has given you. So somebody could have very little and still be content, and somebody could have millions and not be very happy, and vice versa. So that's why I focus on contentment. And there was An academic researcher recently very happy, do you see what I mean? And vice versa, right. So that's why I focus on contentment. And you know, there there was a. There was a academic researcher recently.
Speaker 1:Dr david brooks has done a um, a study on um, the link between finance and happiness, and he talks about five, five key things. He says you can only spend your money in five ways. Number one you can spend it on something, right, you can spend it on um, an experience. You can spend it saving time. You can spend it giving it away or you can spend saving it. And he specifically mentions the data proves that there's four of those five things lead to contentment and happiness, right, and fulfillment, and the one thing doesn't. It leads to unhappiness and he said it's that one thing, ie the first one.
Speaker 1:Spending it on something is the is what society is doing the most on a material on a material thing, because, and, and, and you know, I would encourage people to to maybe look at that research and something that we'd like to work on in the future as well. But it's so true, right, and our religion teaches us to live within our means. Right, because Allah, subhanallah, is the owner of all wealth. Right, and this is the other key thing on the educational programs that we teach around, mindset is understanding that all. So let me ask you a question, right, who owns wealth? Do we own it or does it belong to somebody else?
Speaker 2:From a religious perspective, it all belongs to Allah. Exactly At the end of the day.
Speaker 1:We can't take it with us when we leave.
Speaker 1:So very few people actually understand this principle. I could spend seven hours Teaching finance, but if you don't understand this principle as a believer, as a Muslim, you're not going to understand how to make good financial decisions. Right. Because Allah, subhanallah, you know. I asked many people and I said look, where's the evidence for this? It's in the Quran. Allah, subhanallah, has appointed us as khalifas. Right, we are khalifas, custodians, right, gatekeepers, right. If wealth belonged to us, right, surely, then we should be able to take it Beyond the grave into the next life. If it belonged to us, right.
Speaker 1:But Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala specifically told he made a transaction. In fact, he made a transaction With us. Right, do you know what that transaction was? He said I will give you Eternal bliss. Ie Jannah, right, the place that has no grief, no sorrow, no sadness, no financial difficulty, just pure play, and you're youthful and anything that you ask for, it will be granted. You'll have servants serving you, et cetera, et cetera. You live in palaces of gold and silver, right? So he said I've given you, I will give you this. Remember Islamic finance transactions 101, right, you've got to have two parties. Right, you've got to have offer acceptance. You've got to have a subject matter, right? So Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, said Look, I made this transaction with you. You can have Jannah, but in return I want you to be obedient to me, right? And that's our acid test when we have to be accountable for everything that we do. So he made a transaction with us and in the process of that transaction, he appointed us custodians.
Speaker 1:I like to say we are fund managers for Allah, right? That wealth that we have, the clothes that you and I wear, the health that we have, the family that we have, the relationship that we have, right? Everything, the cars that we drive, the houses that we have, you know, allah says Every soul will taste death, everything will perish, right? So nothing, actually. We're not actual owners of it, we're temporary owners of it, we're fund managers.
Speaker 1:Now, when you start to develop that mindset that actually you know what I'm a fund manager, a custodian, an ambassador for Allah. What an honor he's given us you then start to change how you make financial decisions, as opposed to thinking actually, this wealth belongs to me and it's mine, and I choose which charity to give it to and I'll choose which venture to invest in, etc. Etc. Which is what shaitan wants from us, by the way. Do you see what I mean? So, from an islamic perspective, from a first principles perspective, we have to really really understand this and the other. The other key focus is the people that have the wealth. They are under greater responsibility to redistribute the wealth. That's why zakat exists. Right, you know zakat, right. What is it?
Speaker 2:it's a wealth tax a lot of people think it's a charity, but it's not no, it's not.
Speaker 1:It is. It is charity, but it's that's not the essence of what it is. Right, it's about redistributing wealth to people that are less financially privileged and also rebalancing the economic equilibrium. Do you see what I mean In society? Because Allah doesn't want wealth to be hoarded. In fact, it's highly discouraged to hoard wealth, right? So if you develop that mindset right and this is something that we aim to do and, alhamdulillah, we have been affecting people because we've had lots of positive feedback right is, if you can develop that mindset from the outset and you start to think from there, it transforms your decision making in your life thank you for listening to muslim money talk.
Speaker 2:If you like what you've heard so far, you might be interested in checking out what we do at kestrel, the muslim money app. Kestrel is a service that helps muslims who want to grow their wealth without having to compromise, whether it's on their belief or user experience or price. I founded Kestrel because of how fed up I was at how poor Islamic financial services were in this country. Often people didn't use them because of how bad the user experience or customer service and indeed, how high in price they were. So Kestrel was the answer to that. If you download the Kestrel app today, it can help you by creating a budgeting plan. Plug in whatever bank account you have and it will create an auto budget just for you. You can then tell us what goals you're saving for, and we'll save towards them automatically into pots and then, crucially, link you towards Sharia compliant investment and savings products as well. So download Kestrel today and try it out for yourself.
Speaker 2:Now back to the podcast. It's a beautiful mindset to have that we are custodians, that this wealth isn't ours, it's just given to us. At this point, it's for us to do the best that we can, in an idea that pleases God but also does the best for society. That's incredible. And how has the response been to these classes that you've been doing? Because you're in week four now of teaching this at queen mary's university.
Speaker 1:So we did our first one on the first of feb, our financial literacy program, which was a full day, and it's a pretty full day, right, and we and we also have guest speakers, so no doubt I'll be requesting your expertise on some of them. So what we're planning to do, so the education now, we're planning to do it in a manner where it's consistent, it's constantly evolving, but it happens every year, every month, okay, so you know. Another co, uh, another project that I am co-involved in or co-founded was the muslim ceos, right yes, yeah so, like that, you will have a, like a, and obviously that's due to the.
Speaker 1:you know, know the hard work of Abdulhasib Basit, who's done a fantastic job. You know, I give him a lot of credit because, although we're behind, working on it collectively, he's done a lot of the work. But, just like that, you know, we have a 12-month plan of calendars. We're now going to create a 12-month calendar plan for our financial literacy workshops across the UK. Okay, and so we give access, because the thing is, you cannot be in-person learning. Now, the only thing, the only downside of that right is people live in different parts of the world, want access to that, so we will be launching an online version of it so we can, you know, allow others to benefit from it as well.
Speaker 1:But I'm very, very staunch on the fact that it must be done in person, because I had the, I had the benefit and the privilege and the honor of being sat at the feet, the scholars and learning. And you know we have a very, we have a. You know we have a sunnit, we have a chain of learning direct from the Rasul right, where we we take from heart to heart. Do you see what I mean? This is really, really key, and this is why I highly encourage anybody who has the ability well, well, in fact, not has the ability they must. It's incumbent that they must go and study with scholars, because it absolutely transformed their mentality, their thinking, their knowledge, yeah Right, so it's really important that they do that.
Speaker 2:It was such an interesting concept. When we sat down with Muthu Faraz Adham and, to an extent, mohammed Faraj I should say Sheikh Mohammed Faraj it was really made apparent to me how little people actually appreciate scholarly knowledge these days, like to the extent that people are doubting fatwas and saying, well, this isn't right, how can we trust these scholars? They're all in it for themselves. If people actually sat down and understood what it meant to be an islamic scholar, what it takes, the 10 years of study that they go through and then specializing in a specific field, as these guys have done within Islamic finance, I think a lot more people would be less willing to just throw fatwas out the window or start questioning or starting these fights online. And that's what I wanted to talk to you about, and I'm sorry for bringing it up again, but it does inevitably rear its head in the comment section of our YouTube videos or wherever people are listening to the podcast, where there are people who go on and say none, none of this is Sharia compliant. It's all a massive scam. There are people benefiting at the top, and I feel like this is such a tired old line now where there are so many people who are genuinely moving the industry forward, trying to do real good, and these voices are just just, I don't know. They're just sort of echoing and echoing and I don't know how much substance there is to them.
Speaker 2:There's definitely some truth to it, right in that islamic mortgages are more expensive than conventional mortgages, but I think the reasoning behind that needs to be gone into right. It's effectively an economies of scale issue. There aren't as many is many Islamic mortgages on the market. Supply and demand means that these Islamic banks, in order to make money, they also can afford to charge a higher price. But if we had more Islamic mortgages out there, if more and more Muslims actually deposited their funds in Islamic banks or went with Islamic institutions, there would be a proliferation of more and more Islamic mortgages and the prices would come down. But if we continue to not trust the? Sorry for going on this rant.
Speaker 1:But if we continue to not trust? You've answered the question for me.
Speaker 2:But what's your take on it? Right, Because I see these comments every single week and it's just.
Speaker 1:Look, you know me, I'm somebody who doesn't mince my words and I'm quite outspoken and opinionated, and so quite outspoken and opinionated, and so I would say it comes with the name. So you know, this is why I was named omar. I think you're spot on. I think it's. Look, these issues are very clear. I have started, look, I launched this organization and, just like yourself, I put my blood, sweat and tears into it because I genuinely want to impact people's lives for the better, and this is why I spoke so you know, candidly about education, the need for education, because education so, for example, you talked about, you know, the naysayers, right, okay, we are all ignorant until you learn and gain knowledge. And there's a hadith, or awesome, he says in order to get rid of your ignorance, ask questions. Okay, so I I'm slightly, I'm desensitized now to the naysayers to a certain degree, right, I've. My focus is on creating value, because islam has this principle and philosophy focus on creating value, right, and it comes with conditions, and then profit will follow and then, when the value is created, people will follow, right, and I like to, I like to refer to what sheikh sajid umar says. He says to focus on the three eyes ikhlas, ikhsan and istikamah, sincerity, excellence and consistency, right, so that's how you, how you create value and I think, look, the islamic fintechs are doing that. They're creating value. Right, you know, they're breaking down barriers. Um, ifg was did a fantastic job in educating people, right, um, and you know, know, we're kind of like trying to take on that mantle now, right, and we work very closely behind the scenes, like with most people in the industry, like yourselves and the IFGs and the Waheys and the Nestors and the Kestrels and the Fiders. Right, you know, we're very supportive. That's our role.
Speaker 1:But one of the reasons why we launched this organization was to show people that actually, do you know what? I know? There's this negativity or there's this kind of like, I don't know this just void of people actually understanding what actually happens in the industry. And I think it's only beneficial when you have people like Mufti Faraz, muhammad Paracha, umar Suleiman on this podcast explaining the blood, sweat and tears and the effort and the sacrifice that they've given in this industry. Look, if people are not going to understand that, understand one thing right, the Prophet Muhammad peace be be upon him, the greatest man to walk the face of the earth, the greatest leader known to mankind.
Speaker 1:He has lots of criticism, right, and I think, just focus on creating value. Criticism will always exist. Sometimes it's not constructive and I think when I have conversations with people that are highly critical, nine times out of ten I'm able to sway them back to some sort of economic reality to say, look, you don't actually understand what's happening in the industry, let me explain to you, right? And when I explain to them what's actually happening because I look at it from three folds right, this, this issue of this, this issue of criticism and the errors.
Speaker 1:There's three errors. Number one is the history of islamic finance and how it was incubated, right, how it was started. Number two is its current day and age, ie today, whatever you want to call it Islamic finance, 1.0 or 2.0. And then the key thing this is the key thing where a lot of frustration stems from is the evolution and the direction that it's going into. Okay, so the history is very, very clear and I said recently on another podcast if islamic finance does get to the, the level and status and the problem solving area that we want it to go to, okay, you will go back and thank the first early generations of people that did what they did? Right, we know islamic by islamic finance.
Speaker 1:Islamic banking is not perfect, right, but we're building it or we're helping build it. We, you know, we're creating awareness around it. Do you know what I mean? I mean, you guys are the ones actually building the solutions. Right, we're here to support you. Right, that's the purpose of our organization, and so I think I would tend to focus less on people that are just. There's different types of negativity, right, there's a genuine constructive criticism where you can engage with people and say, look, I think you can do this better. And then you can work and have a conversation with somebody that is respectful to say, okay, fine, we'll take that feedback on board and we're working on it. And then the armchair pundits right, I wouldn't give the armchair pundits, or the people that actually don't understand what happens in this industry, don't understand the thick of Islamic finance, specifically, specifically and then are quick to point fingers. Right, because they need to understand that. You know, people are busting a gut in this industry to provide for them and this negativity doesn't get anybody anywhere. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 1:and I, I, I'm sorry to say this, but you know, I, I would, I would focus on creating the value and, just you know, put that negativity in one ear, out the other so let's talk about the third eye, the innovation, the solutions.
Speaker 2:What are you most excited about when it comes to the future of Islamic finance, or what's happening right now, today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm excited about a lot of things. So I'm going to come back to mindset. I'm excited regarding the level of demand to learn and the level of encouragement I see from the youth. I'm excited about Islamic fintech. I'm excited about how young people are creating products and solutions. I'm excited about the level of people that come up to me after our workshops and outside the workshop saying to me I'm working on this proposition, can you help with me or can you guide me on this? Do you see what I mean? So I'm excited about what the youth are going to bring and and what this nascent intro islamic fintech is going to bring. And there's many propositions in the investment space, possibly in the retail banking space, um, in the you know, one area that I I'm probably a little bit concerned about more than others is the taqafu space. I'm excited to see what happens in the pension space, right? So these are all propositions that people are working on, right, and I think you know, in the next five to 10 years, you will see a greater variety of products and solutions.
Speaker 1:See, I come back to the issue of wealth now. Right, as a Muslim business owner, entrepreneur, a custodian, a fund manager for Allah, who has been given more wealth than others. What are you doing with that wealth to help facilitate and incubate the organizations and the causes that are so important to our communities and our society at large? What are they doing? And this is why I sometimes, in a respectful manner, go after them and say look guys, alhamdulillah you've been, you've been blessed with abundant wealth, but are you funneling that wealth into the organizations that they need it? I feel as if there's a better job to be done, that we need more funds created for our communities. Do you see what I mean? And so takafu is the one that I'm probably a bit more concerned about, because I don't see many there's not too much happening.
Speaker 2:exactly A podcast, which may or may not come out just before this one, is with Takadau, with Murad Rasool and Shireen Lee, both of them, husband and wife co-founders, who are sorting out the Carrefour issue using the innovative blockchain.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's very exciting, but aside from them, I'm not seeing too many other solutions tackling that.
Speaker 2:I think that, um, I think, just to draw a line under this what I'm really excited about and what I'm seeing more and more people move towards whether it's fider or wahid or or curate capital under ifg or nesta is the movement away from rent seeking activities, which is just people storing their money in a bank and expecting a fixed rate of return, and more towards profit generation, and that you're putting money into islamic institutions and expecting them to go out there and help people buy homes or invest into businesses who are doing refurbishments or just invest into a startup right.
Speaker 2:Increasingly, that's becoming more and more common and more and more Muslims young, but also young to older affluent Muslims are willing to take that risk and understand that it is a risk. It's not a guaranteed return, but it's a pretty good return and it's inherently Sharia compliant and better for the economy as a whole. And I think that's the marketing gap that we now need to bridge and show that it's not just for Muslims, it's not just something because our holy book says so and we believe that God told us to. It's just better for society as a whole.
Speaker 1:So that's the thing I'm most excited about when it comes to yeah, no, no, absolutely. It actually makes me think. You know, earlier I said about the the five ways somebody would spend their money, right? So number four on that list is giving it away. So there's now data to suggest that people that give away more money actually get more in return so that's literally.
Speaker 2:Do you see what I?
Speaker 1:mean, and that's what our religion teaches us. This is what I'm saying. Like, you know your intention, you're near so. For example, now you touched on, you know investing in, you know, startups or smes. Right, you, literally you can do a bird's eye view and look at the, the gaps in the industry or what's missing in our societies, and then you know this is something that we do spend considerable time with the youth to say, if you can build something there's hackathons out there that happening all the time right, if you can build something, we'll bring people to support you.
Speaker 1:But I go back to the people that have the wealth. They have to understand that if they have the right intention of saying do you know what? I'm going to give this, this lump sum of money to this organization, because one I like the people that are are involved in the proposition. Right, they're genuine people. They're there for the long term. Right, they're not here to make a quick buck. They want to create value for society and they're sincere. Right, I'm gonna invest in that person. I'm gonna give them this lump sum of money over a two, three year cycle, right, and I'm doing this because I believe they're gonna create value in society. More importantly, I'm doing it for the sake of Allah, of allah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you see what I mean if I feel like? I feel as if you know, and I and I, I always speak very highly of my own chairman, right, uh, rizwan khalid, who now you know, they've they. Obviously he's a, he's our chairman, he runs your quality lambs, but it's a fantastic example of a. And they have their own foundation where they support the capacity. They believe he believes in capacity building. They, they support so many different organizations do you see what I mean?
Speaker 1:and and exactly, and, and we want, we want to showcase these. People like this exist, right, they may keep a low profile, but they exist and they're impacting so many thousands of people's lives, right, and so many different organizations, right. So we want to, we want to in, you know, want to influence and encourage this particular mindset of giving. Do you see what I mean? And once we start to do that, we will start. We will start to bear greater fruit.
Speaker 1:Because the thing is like Mufti Fardal said in your podcast you know the mujtahid, even if he gets something wrong, if he followed the correct methodology, he gets two rewards. Right, I think Sheikh Paracha said that, right, and it's the same here. You know, as long as your intention is correct, right, it doesn't necessarily have to be logical, because Allah is the controller of heavens and earth and he controls all wealth. But the thing is, when I say we're fund managers for Allah, it doesn't always come back to logical, conventional thinking, because we have something called Iman and Islam has a methodology of economics. Do you see what I mean? So the more we give one of my teachers he used to say to me, sheikha brannusa, right, who was also the one of the teachers for uh, muhammad paracha, um, he used to say, almost remember one thing he goes when you increase your standard of living, always increase your standard of giving so the wealthier you get.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean you shouldn't turn off the tap to charity no, you should increase it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you should increase it, right? How? I mean? It's like there's only so many zeros you can add on, all right it's not going to do anything.
Speaker 2:So I guess that brings us to our final point okay what do muslim leaders of tomorrow need? Because we've talked about I know this is something that you're very passionate.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is a this is a very, very passionate subject matter of mine.
Speaker 2:Yes, but you're all about making sure that every young Muslim feels empowered to become a CEO, a leader, whether it's in business or even you know sports or entrepreneurship or what have you. What should they be? What could they be looking for? What do they need? What's missing right now?
Speaker 1:So look. So leadership is a very, very deep subject matter, right, you can dive into it so many angles, and I actually link it. It's very similar to riba, in the sense that it's very difficult to define riba. There's no universal definition of leadership because it's so subjective in nature. However, however right, we have so many, when we look at leaders, right, I'm going to ask you in a second who you consider as a leader, right? Or a role model.
Speaker 1:Islam has so many leaders and role models, and I constantly bang on about the Khulafa Rashidun and for sisters, there's also female role models. There's no doubt we can talk about the four women of Jannah. So there's enough out there. The problem is we don't know our history very well, right, generally, okay, and I'm specifically referring to the youth here, because you've got to understand if you live in a certain country, you live in the subcontinent, you live in the Arab world. Islamic history it can be taught through academia, right, you have the ability to learn academia, right, you have that, the ability to learn. We don't have that here, so we have to learn that all outside extracurriculum, right?
Speaker 1:or outside of school life, outside the university, right, but islamic history is so rich it is and the pioneers of islam remember I talked about, but the last time right talked about, you know, shifting the needle, having having the correct mindset, right and, just as a reminder, that was the 300 of buddha. 313 in buddha yes, that carried the religion on their back, and we wouldn't be muslims today if they hadn't done that right, even even though at the time they didn't know they were going to win.
Speaker 2:They were just facing down what seemed completely hopeless. Right, they could have gone at that time, but they still fought so they.
Speaker 1:They didn't see. Is this a really key point, right? I'm glad you mentioned it. They didn't. This is a really key point, right? I'm glad you mentioned it. They didn't go into that battle thinking they were going to win. They went to that battle with the three I's ikhlas right Mainly the being the same, but the main one, the ihsan and istiqamah right and they knew the victory only came from Allah and they were hoping that Allah would grant them the victory because they had the ikhlas and the excellence, the, the sincerity, the excellence and the consistency. Do you see what I mean? So that these, these three ingredients are critical if you want to be successful in life. You need to study these. You know, all three of these principles are academic, devised within themselves so sincerity, excellence and consistency yes, yeah how should young people today be embedding those into their life?
Speaker 2:You?
Speaker 1:have to study, you have to learn, and this is something that we try to teach in our programs, right? Because the thing is, if I give an example of Surah Fatah that we recite every day, the amount of volumes of Tafasir written on just seven ayahs is incredible. Do you see what I mean? So these are deep level subject matters and this is why I encourage resource, something he said it's incumbent on everybody to learn. Do you see what I mean? But coming back to your question, um, you know. So we've tried to, sorry, remind me you. You were asking about the leaders of tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Yes, the leaders of tomorrow. So, exactly, thank you. So when we, when we did this course yesterday, right, we, we, we discussed it from you know the more academic route, right, because you, there's no universal definition of leadership, so it's very subjective in nature. So, academics, what they've done, they've looked at, they first developed something called the trait approach, right, they thought, okay, leaders are generally born, not made, because they have specific innate traits. And then they found out, actually, there's leaders that that weren't didn't have these specific traits but were still successful.
Speaker 1:And they thought, okay, do you know what? Let's look at behavior, right. So they then said, okay, look at traits, let's embed behavior. Are they in certain scenarios or do they have certain life experiences that allow them to develop behavioral patterns combined with their traits? Right, then they realized that wasn't enough. Then they said, okay, what about situational? Right. So then they had the traits, then they had the behavior and they had the situation. Somebody has to be thrust into a certain environment to evolve and learn right.
Speaker 1:And then that still didn't answer everything, because you could still have somebody who didn't have those three things necessarily or maybe one of those things, and didn't have those three things necessarily or maybe one of those things and has become successful, right, okay, um, and then they looked at three um concepts and approaches of mindset.
Speaker 1:So they, they looked at somebody who could be the, the ethical leader, right, the society around him, sustainability, treating others right. And and then there was a transformational leader, where it was about actually, we're not, we're not looking at a leadership perspective from just the leader's perspective, we're looking at it from the perspective of the leader and the people that work under him, or his followers, how he can transform their lives as well. Do you see what I mean? So through this, through 1940 onwards, they've been de-layering leadership to understand it better, and there's lots of academic research done on this right. And then the third one, right, the third one was servant-led leadership, okay, and this is really important because there's a particular hadith, in fact, before I go into that hadith, so I've just mentioned three approaches to leadership the ethical leader, the transformational leader and the servant-led leader. Right, which one do you reckon? The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him which one.
Speaker 1:Do you reckon he was?
Speaker 2:He was absolutely transformational. He transformed the lives of over 100,000 people just within his lifetime. Ethical he had to be, because that was the basis of everything that he did. The reason people trusted him at the very start is that he was known for being the most humble, the most sincere, the truth teller. Um, and then your final one. What was that again?
Speaker 1:a servant led leader servant.
Speaker 2:I mean subhanallah, I mean sacrifices that he made for his people during his lifetime, losing everything yes his family members, his friends, his, his own wife passed away due to the famine that was caused um I guess all three.
Speaker 1:So the the reason why I asked you that question? I mean, I, I know you know the answers. The reason why I asked the question is because I, when I when my teaching style is asking people a lot of questions, especially youth, that may not have the kind of like confidence or or the ability to articulate themselves perfectly yet or have the confidence to give the answer. They may be shy. Right, let's break down their confidence barriers. And the thing is, when I ask that question, what you're doing is you're thinking about it and you're thinking. You know, whilst you're thinking, you're already in awe.
Speaker 1:When you went, when you talked about serving the leader like subhanallah, so, so he did. He did all three, right? Yeah, there was a hadith that Rasulullah specifically mentioned. He said the leader of a people, the Amir. He specifically mentioned the Amir, right, he is their servant. So he said the Amir Is their servant.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine the greatest man To walk the face of this earth, right? Who perfected character? Right? And Allah, subhanallah, gave us a human being For us humans to understand how we can humanize it. Do you see what I mean? He suffered and had grief and sadness, just like we did. Right, he had moments of joy, just like we did, right. But he said A person's amir Ie, he's their khadim, their servant. So this is the greatest man towards the first face of the earth, saying I'm your servant. Yeah, if he's our servant, what does it make us? Do you see what I mean? So I think when you start to the point I'm making is when you start to delay your ignorance and learn and that's why I say it comes back to everybody should go and sit and learn with scholars. Do you see what I mean? You're getting rid of your ignorance and you know these all, all this negativity that you have. It basically recalibrates the thinking and the mind when you have to come from those three perspectives an ethical perspective, transformational and especially the servant-led one.
Speaker 2:It pulls apart the notion that power has to corrupt, that being given more power innately will corrupt you. I guess it would do if you weren't keeping those things at the back of your mind, if you weren't truly trying to be for the people, transforming their lives and being a servant to them. Because you can't be arrogant. You have to keep that sense of humility in order to truly embody the sense of the servant leader.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this is a really key point because you know, when you looked at the trait, behavioral and situational approach, the next thing that they do, they do discuss is, um, the, the intersection between, uh, power and authority, and what it can do to people. So, for example, now you're absolutely spot on if you don't have that level of knowledge and understanding right. This is why they say knowledge is is like, it's like a light, right it? And that's why I'm speaking from experience. Having the ability and having the opportunity to sit and defeat the scholars absolutely transformed my life right, and I can guarantee anybody who does that it will do the same thing to them.
Speaker 1:In fact, this is something that not only Islam promotes on a daily basis. We should never stop learning, right, but if you look for Islamic history, that's how Rasulullah transformed and inspired Sahaba to be the best possible human beings they could be. Do you see what I mean? And then, obviously, then we talked about something that's very interesting discussion right now in terms of personalities and archetypes, right, which I'm sure we can probably dive into it another day, but yeah, it's a deep level subject matter, but it comes back to knowledge.
Speaker 1:Now here's a key thing. The purpose of knowledge is not to just amass knowledge. They say the alim say this, that you know my teachers. They used to say right, when you have, when you qualify as somebody like Paracha to become an alim, it's like having a key to a door. You then have to to choose which door to unlock. So knowledge is not enough. It's you can be alim, but you must be hakim as well. Ie must have the wisdom, and that's where you start to transform society and lives.
Speaker 2:The knowledge and the wisdom together, so I think that's a fantastic place to end it. Thank you so much for rejoining us. Any final words of wisdom to the audience?
Speaker 1:uh, no, I would, I would. I would just encourage them to. You know we're launching educational programs around the country. Do partake, do benefit from them. They'll be launched and I'm planning to launch them at different intervals around the year and also different geographical locations like Birmingham, Manchester, Bradford, Leicester, wherever the demand is. London, obviously, is kind of like our base and our home. We will have them throughout the year and you know they'll be promoted and do join them.
Speaker 2:So follow Ribber Free Foundation, connect with them or online to find out more about that.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. As-salamu alaykum Wa alaykum, as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Muslim Money Talk podcast. If you like what you heard, then please subscribe to Muslim Money Talk. Wherever you might have been listening to this, give us a like and share it with someone who you think might be interested. It really, really helps us out. Thank you, as-salamu alaykum, and see you next time.