Muslim Money Talk
Introducing the Muslim Money Talk Podcast, a place for all things Muslim and Money related.
Every week we'll be sitting down with Founders, leaders and industry experts from across multiple disciplines to discuss lessons learned, mistakes made and most importantly 'How they did it?'.
Brought to you by Kestrl: The Muslim Money App, software to help Muslims grow their wealth without compromise. Find out more here: https://kestrl.io/
Muslim Money Talk
Building MUSLIM Generational Wealth! Ft Sadiq Dorsat, Niaz Azad & Yasmine El-Mahairy | Ep 38
This special live podcast event episode (featuring Sadiq Dorsat, Niaz Azad & Yasmine El-Mahairy) discusses financial challenges faced by British Muslims, highlighting issues like debt, financial literacy, and the importance of giving Zakat locally. The speakers emphasises building generational wealth within the Muslim community and supporting Muslim-owned businesses, while also tackling stereotypes about wealth and piety.
This podcast is hosted by Areeb Siddiqui, the founder and CEO of Kestrl, the app that helps people to grow their wealth without compromise
Find out more about our app here: https://kestrl.io/
And how we help banks here: https://business.kestrl.io/
Show Notes:
00:00 - The State of Muslim Finances in UK
08:42 - Challenging Poverty-Piety Misconceptions
17:05 - Muslim Charitable Giving and Local Impact
23:29 - Introducing EverGive's Endowment Approach
27:08 - Muslim Women and Financial Empowerment
31:10 - Supporting Muslim Businesses and Entrepreneurship
40:35 - Final Advice for Muslim Entrepreneurs
You know Muslims falling into debt, having to take out short-term loans to cover expenses, skipping meals using food banks.
Speaker 2:I think there's a financial literacy problem in the UK as a whole and that's amplified within the Muslim community even more so. So obviously my belief is that it's not wrong to be rich in Islam. I think it's very honourable to acquire wealth and use it the right way, but it can also be very honourable to not have wealth, if that's written for you as well.
Speaker 3:I honestly think it's an oppressor's tool to let you feel that piety cannot go with wealth. If we look in our history, if we look in our Islamic tradition, you'll find that a lot of the Sahaba have been quite wealthy.
Speaker 1:Actually, 90% of people, perhaps in this room, give their Zakat abroad. Really, 90% of people give their Zakat abroad when there are people potentially your neighbours that are struggling to put food on the table.
Speaker 3:Being wealthy in order to make a difference is a very noble cause that I wish for every one of us cause that I wish for every one of us Before we begin.
Speaker 4:We actually noticed only about 10% of you are subscribed to the podcast. So if you like what you're listening to and you want to hear more from us and see more things Muslim and money related, then please consider subscribing and, of course, leaving this episode a like and share it with your friends, leave us a comment or a review, because it really really does help us out and help more people to find us. Thank you, now back to the show. Okay, and welcome to. I think this is the first ever live Muslim Money Talk podcast that we're doing so, and we have some returning guests, so big round of applause for them. Thank you very much. So tonight's theme, as you probably would have seen, is all about unlocking the Muslim pound, which is a concept I first heard about years ago, right here in the Wahid office, or where it was at the time, at Liverpool Street, where the founder Junaid Wahedna talks about how a single pound often circulates up to 27 times within the merman community in india before it actually leaves, and it's an idea that, as muslims, it's something we should be trying to emulate, where we could build our own circular economy where a pound would move around multiple times between our own businesses, our own people, before it actually leaves. The end result is that, as families will be able to build generational wealth, muslim olden businesses will be able to flourish and charities are able to make a greater impact and even help to fight injustice, as we've seen. Just today, the two-month ceasefire in Gaza was broken, with hundreds of civilians being killed or injured. Just this morning alone, we've seen, as we just saw with our boycott tool, the interest of so many major brands that we had used every single day are diametrically opposed to what we stand for, forcing us to rethink how and where we spend and invest our money. So to talk about this, I brought along three subject matter experts, business owners, entrepreneurs, familiar faces and people I'm lucky enough to call friends. Soasmin al-mahari, a three-time successful founder who currently runs deejah money. She's been on the podcast before. Please do check out her episode. It's a platform that was created in a response to how poor financial resources were for muslim women, despite having role models such as khadija radhi lana, which is who the platform is named after. They they've just launched in Saudi Arabia. So a big round of applause. We also have Niaz Azad, founder of Millennial Money UK, which I'm sure everyone is familiar with, a platform on a mission to demystify personal finance for young people, helping them to navigate the often opaque world that is financial services. He's also a fellow podcast host over on the Loose Change podcast, so please do check that out. And so, of course, well remembered.
Speaker 4:Finally, we have Sadiq Sadiq Dorosal. He's no stranger here. He was at Wahid until he left recently to start his own venture, but it's not the first one he's ever done. He's a multiple founder, creating the famous Muslim census, which has shone a light on the plight of British Muslims over the past few years. Now his latest venture, evergive, is a platform that makes sure your charitable donations are invested to make a 50x impact. He's also big on Twitter, so follow him over there. So I wanted to start off by talking about the current state of Muslims in the UK. So, sadiq, starting with you, I think Muslim Census, together with Islamic Relief, ran a really interesting campaign back in 2022, where you found that this crazy stat, which is still seen, see quoted across the media today 50% of British Muslims are living in poverty or deprivation in some way, which was shocking. Were you really surprised when you found that out?
Speaker 1:yeah, so, um, the report was with Islamic Reliefzf and uh algebra actually at the time, and we we obviously we did a report earlier around the financial impact of covid um, where we saw uh stats, like you know, muslims were 10 times likelier to fall into poverty due to the pandemic, and so we wanted to double down and and talk about the cost of living and some of the numbers that came out. Genuinely I was surprised, I actually couldn't believe it. I felt like maybe the way we were collecting data was incorrect, which you could argue, maybe right, but you know, muslims falling into debt, having to take out short-term loans to cover expenses, skipping meals using food banks and, of course, the majority of Muslims living in some of the most impoverished areas in the UK. And I didn't believe it to such an extent that I reached out to several food banks and just wanted to visit for the day, and what I saw were Muslims, mainly refugees, actually and actually a stat was shared by one of the food banks is that 85% of refugees that come to this country identify as Muslim.
Speaker 1:So the problem is very much our communities, is very much our communities, and so, yeah, I saw Muslims completely dependent on the support that they're getting from mosques across the country and food banks, and these are potentially non-Muslim food banks, so secular-based food banks, but Muslims are completely using it. And it kind of led me to think about zakat and how we're using zakat. And so after that we did a study on purely zakat and asking the questions of where do you spend your zakat? Is it locally or is it internationally? What's the mix? And actually 90% of people, perhaps in this room, give their zakat abroad.
Speaker 1:Really 90% of people give their zakat abroad when there are people people potentially your neighbours that are struggling to put food on the table. And so it really was a mind shift for me, because I was this person, I would send all of it back home. Bangladesh was back home or is back home, and so it's like okay, and now I'm starting to like split that up. So some of it actually goes locally in the UK, some of it goes to Bangladesh, some of it goes to the more urgent crisis across the world. So, yeah, that was kind of like the surprise from that study.
Speaker 4:Okay, and we'll come a lot more into that later when we go into whatever. Give is all about Niaz. We've talked about this before, but I'm interested to know if your opinion has, uh, changed. We talked about it a week ago, so I don't imagine it has. Um, I guess it's the problem with are muslims afraid to be rich? Can you be pious without being going into poverty?
Speaker 2:it's an interesting question and I think I've asked, like everyone here, this question before whether it's wrong to be rich in Islam. And obviously, when you hear stories about our brothers and sisters who are refugees, who are in impoverished communities, struggling, that shouldn't label ourselves as a monolith, because I think at the same time, muslims in the UK, we're actually accumulating quite a lot of wealth as well, but there's a problem that exists across all levels of wealth, which is the financial literacy. I think there's a financial literacy problem in the UK as a whole and that's amplified within the Muslim community even more so. Now, there's reasons for that. I think there's a proximity.
Speaker 2:If you look at the demographies of the Muslims that came to the UK first, it was actually Pakistanis, the Indians, the Bangladeshis. That came in the 60s and it was our grandparents and we have fairly close proximity to them Now. They worked extremely hard and we are now standing on their shoulders, but we've inherited a lot of the views that they may have passed down to us, which was very risk averse. It wasn't common for them to acquire lots of wealth, right. But us as a generation, right, and those of us in this room, we have an opportunity to try and actually like break that story a bit more, and I think, naturally, it was easier as well.
Speaker 2:I think there was a part of like a coping mechanism about where people used to think about poverty and piety being one and the same right, and that's a notion that I think we can begin to challenge a lot more. So obviously, my belief is that it's not wrong to be rich in Islam. I think it's very honourable to acquire wealth and use it the right way, but it can also be very honourable to not have wealth, if that's written for you as well. But I think there's context to why a lot of the views of Muslims in the UK has been set in a certain way, and it's added to the whole financial illiteracy point as well, which I think we need to begin to challenge yeah, we need to kind of disentangle that immigrant story from the religious part of it as well.
Speaker 4:Okay, fantastic. And then yasmin the, the problem appears to be exacerbated, exacerbated amongst muslim women in particular. How do you think that's happened? It seems to be relatively recently in our history as well.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, some typical stereotypes are still stuck with us that the wife stays behind watching transactions happen in front of her, having no say. And I would add something perhaps to what Nia has just said, not necessarily about women, but I honestly think it's an oppressor's tool to let you feel that piety cannot go with wealth. If we look in our history, if we look in our Islamic tradition, you'll find that a lot of the Sahaba have been quite wealthy. They've been quite wealthy like Uthman, like Abdurrahman ibn Auf. They've actually spent their money setting armies, feeding the poor, feeding villages, building for Islam, and I feel this is again the oppressor, the colonialism, whatever you want to call it. This is the tool of making you feel that you don't deserve to be rich, because it is against everything you stand for and unfortunately, this was what has been said to ancestors, in terms of women as well. It was an oppression tool. You don't know about money, so you stay home because I'm the one doing money.
Speaker 3:Now, things have changed over the years. Things have changed for all of us and I think, unfortunately, we have not yet evolved to ask for our rights in terms of financial needs and financial rights as women. All over the world, people tend to think that we perhaps here in the West are luckier, have more access, have more opportunity, where I have seen that women in the GCC and in the Gulf tend to be more empowered, more capable of asking for what they need, to an extent that sometimes we look at them and think, oh girls, you're spoiled. But just because they have the power to ask for things that we didn't have, and I think it's just a mindset shift for all of us, men and women, to you know, don't follow blindly what has been told to you, but challenge it and see what's right for you to do.
Speaker 4:Okay, and again we'll come into how DJ Money in particular is helping to break those barriers. Now, despite the issues we just talked about with making money and with financial literacy, I think we've said this already, but we are the heavyweights of making charitable donations in this country. Alhamdulillah, a study by Givebrite in 2020 found that over 150 million pounds was donated by British Muslims in Ramadan alone I think that was back in 2020, largely through Zakat payments. But could this be done more effectively, more intentionally and, like we've alluded to, more within this country? Salih, could you tell us about EverGive and the problem that you identified when it comes to charitable giving?
Speaker 1:yeah, and just on that, muslims give beyond means, like beyond reason, and the numbers that you quoted actually remind me of, actually, the time of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, when the kind of scripture on Sadaqah was given and he relayed that to his followers. You know, we've all heard it, that Sadaqah extinguishes sin as though water to a flame. And of the early followers of the Prophet, they were all poor, right Majority of them weren't wealthy, and so they actually asked like I have no wealth, I have nothing to give, but you know I want this reward, you know you've mentioned that this is so important, I want this reward. And what they did actually At the time was they just went out and looked for work and they would do anything Just to have some sort of earning. Why Not for themselves, but to give sadaqah. And so during the month of Ramadan, I see that amongst people, people give Without thinking they give Whatever they have in their account. They'd look at 20, 30, 50, 80. I've seen people give. I've heard stories of people giving um, and so that that is beautiful and that's never been in question. Where we give and how we give is what, um I think we can improve on, and so that's why I'm working on Ever Given, just to kind of explain it. And Yasmin kind of spoke about Uthman radiAllahu anhu, who has the most famous waqf that still lives to this day. It's the well that still people can go and get a drink and he's actually got a bank account. If you've ever gone Umrah, you'll see the big bank account number that still people can go and get a drink and he's actually got a bank account. If you've ever gone Umrah, you'll see the big bank account number that still gives out sadaqah. But where has that? That's been lost.
Speaker 1:Today, all of our donations typically is immediate giving. We think about what is needed right now and that's fine, but not for 100% of your donations. So if I can do anything today is I want you to think about two things One, how you split your zakat please think locally of your neighbours and your brothers and sisters, because uplifting the dignity of the people in this country, arguably, is more important than anything else. And second is the types of sadaqah that you give. So to explain EverGive you donate but it doesn't go immediately to the charity.
Speaker 1:It's initially invested and the profits are given to charity forever. We've had endowment funds since, again since the kind of Islamic golden age, and it's kind of been not stolen, but it's been inspired by or taken by your secular kind of endowment funds. Harvard, yale have one in the 40 billion mark. There's one called Wellcome Trust in the UK. That's 20 billion, but again started in 1930s with 500 pounds. But Muslims ourselves, even though it started off with us, have kind of forgotten this idea and this concept, and so we're trying to bring it back. So, yeah, your money is initially invested, profits are given out, and the plan is in 20, 30 years' time for this to be in the billions as well, inshallah. And so charities can actually start thinking about the bigger term picture and impact, kind of like policy at a higher level as well.
Speaker 4:SubhanAllah, Amazing, Incredible initiative. Niaz Yasmin, I guess kind of like a joint question for you guys. How do you think people could be more intentional with regard to calculations and donations in particular? Do people even understand how it works?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, so on and sort of to add to Sadiq's point as well I think it shows us that the money is actually better served in our community and I fundamentally believe that within the Muslim community, there is wealth out there being accumulated by everyone and the opportunity is there to be accumulated by everyone. But I fundamentally believe, like as Muslims, it's actually probably better served within our community because we have principles like Zakat. We give a lot of sadaqah, we know that our community is not behind on these matters, right, and we have to fundamentally believe that the teachings and the principles that we have in Islam, they shouldn't just be designed for Muslims. We were just talking about this earlier If zakat was applied universally, it would end global poverty overnight, right. If it was universally applied and we know that it isn't, obviously, but we need to understand that a lot of these principles that we have within our faith and practice, if they were to be applied to everyone universally, it would create a great benefit at large. Now, with zakat as well, which is a specific one, and it's such an honorable thing that we have, right. Sometimes I think it's easy to look at it as, like I know, sometimes I often hear it referred to as a tax, or people think about it as an annual taxation of their wealth, but actually reframing our thinking as to what zakat actually is and the amazing impact that it can have is we have the honor of redistributing Allah's wealth every year and we know that is a huge purification of our wealth as well.
Speaker 2:I think most of us in this room will have stories of like sadaqah that we've given and the blessings that we've seen, like sometimes within the same day. I can tell stories where I've seen the blessings within the same day. We know there's a spiritual calculus to our giving and how we utilize our wealth and our money, which not everyone will understand, and again it comes back to the point of this money is better served within our community, so we should go out there and get it because we know we're going to utilize it better with things like Zakat. Giving it closer to home is something that I've learned, actually, over the last few years. It was, I think, initially when I came.
Speaker 2:It was like Zakatable income. I did the usual thing that most of us would have done, where you calculate your Zakat and then you look at an easy option to give it out through. But my dad actually had a conversation with me and was like look closer to home. Actually, islamically, we're told look closer to home, whether it's family even that might need it, and then looking locally and then looking otherwise. So I think it's amazing to have, and that kind of messaging as well, to think about structuring your zakat that you have, because it's a redistribution of your wealth.
Speaker 3:Can I add just perhaps a little story. So I won't talk about zakat, I'll talk about sadaqah and the greater benefits of sadaqah and perhaps building on what Sadaqah Niaz just said about making something that has a long-lasting effect beyond purification of money right now. So I was giving a training to women in Saudi Arabia about basic financial literacy and one of the women basically came and said to me I don't need to learn about financial literacy, I'm doing fine. My husband spends, I go to work, I have a lot of money. I buy whatever my husband won't buy. Why do I need to know what's in my bank account? And I said, yeah, some people do think like that. It's impressive. What are considered other world problems? Right? And it kind of made a bit of a murmur inside the room like, yeah, I relate to that. My dad spends, my husband spends blah, blah, blah. I'm rich, I'm working for a PIF project, I make blah, blah, blah a month and I don't need to think about it. It depresses me to think about money and I think at this point it's like everything that you don't teach when it comes to financial literacy.
Speaker 3:You start financial literacy by what are your financial goals and then how we can get there. And I said so, what's important to you? And what I discovered is to them, it's actually self-actualization, so the bottom part of the Maslow pyramid, right? I want to feel like a good person, I want to believe that I'm doing something right. I want to feel that I'm making a difference in the world. And I said so, what are you doing to make a difference in the world? And she was like oh, I give to charity. And I said so, how much do you give to charity? And she's like I don't know, I don money. And I was like see, that's something you should care about, because if you really want to make an effect right, then you need to make an effect that is relatable as a percentage of that money you spent. So there's a very big difference between giving change at the end of the meal to a waiter and actually making an endowment or working towards, or saving towards, a charity project.
Speaker 3:So when we finished that conversation I mean she didn't interrupt again during the training we finished, and so forth she added me on LinkedIn. She messaged me and was like give me some inspiration for charity projects that I can do long term, and I'm ready to recruit a few other women so that we work together towards a charity. And what I asked was so what do you care about? Do you care about education? Do you care about health? Do you care about child labor, like what do you want to change? And basically, I think we have a meeting in a few days where she is supposed to have done her research and decided what she cares about. So sometimes the issue is we lack financial literacy to the extent that we do not know what we want with our money. I mean, nice problem to have. I wish that was everybody's problem. But point being, being wealthy in order to make a difference is a very noble cause that I wish for every one of us.
Speaker 4:Thank you for listening to Muslim Money Talk. If you like what you've heard so far, you might be interested in checking out what we do at Kestrel, the Muslim money app. Kestrel is a service that helps Muslims who want to grow their wealth without having to compromise, whether it's on their belief or user experience or price. I founded Kestrel because of how fed up I was at how poor Islamic financial services were in this country. Often people didn't use them because of how bad the user experience or customer service and indeed, how high in price they were. So Kestrel was the answer to that. If you download the Kestrel app today, it can help you by creating a budgeting plan. Plug in whatever bank account you have and it will create an auto budget just for you. You can then tell us what goals you're saving for, and we'll save towards them automatically into pots and then, crucially, link you towards Sharia compliant investment and savings products as well. So download Kestrel today and try it out for yourself.
Speaker 4:Now back to the podcast, to, as the last section, the part about the concepts. A big part of the concept of the muslim pound is supporting muslim businesses. Each of you runs a muslim business, so I just wanted to get your take on, um, I guess, adoption amongst the muslim community, which notoriously can be a little bit no, maybe not disappointing, but uh, maybe a little, uh skeptical, skeptical of muslim businesses, and I think quite rightly. There have been a lot of high profile scams, even one just a few months ago, I think a few weeks ago, famously. Um, why do you think muslims struggle to trust muslim owned businesses each other effectively and what are you guys doing to try and circumvent that? Yeah, just kind of starting with you, do you find that in saudi what you're doing?
Speaker 3:The thing is, in Saudi, nothing is labeled as Muslim because everything is Muslim. So that's different. But one thing I will tell you from my personal experience running a small business so not a startup is, even with any of your friends, everybody wants a discount, not want to give you money to succeed. So there are two ways. When someone starts a business you start a bakery shop, everybody wants free brownies, but not enough people want to give you money to grow your business, and then the business shuts down and they were like, oh damn, it was good.
Speaker 3:So this attitude among the Muslim community really needs to change. Like, if you like something, support it, vouch for it, tell your friends, encourage it for it. You know, tell your friends, encourage. It's not just your money, it's just give them business. And I think this is this is the only way we can support each other. So like intentionally, like when I buy from friends, I buy the full price, I don't tell them that I'm going, so they don't know to, they don't leave a message to give me a discount. I mean, you do this intentionally. That that's how we support each other, I guess.
Speaker 2:I completely agree and I think we spoke about this actually recently. I think we need to participate in the Muslim economy. I know there's been a lot of skepticism again from probably a generation that came before us, and with good reason. I have personal anecdotes where I've been extremely frustrated at dealing with Muslim businesses and I do think to a certain extent we probably have rewarded mediocrity for a while as well. But at the same time now, with businesses like Kestrel and more that are emerging we've got Faida, we've got so many, we've got Wahid and I think participation in this Muslim economy is needed, and I've.
Speaker 2:It's sad because I've spoken to Muslims and they have said that they would soon apart with their money to a non-Muslim brand because they see it as more secure, and often that isn't the case. And then there's also complaints about why are Muslim products so expensive. If we talk about financial services in particular, why are they so difficult to deal with? Why are they so expensive? And the reason they're so expensive is because of a lack of participation from Muslims. So we can participate and actually improve the experience for generations to come, but it takes one generation to take the step and actually begin to participate and support these companies and build them up, take the hits Exactly, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But also from running a small business myself. I've seen and I run projects and, like I sell pictures and campaigns to all kinds of brands and businesses, and it is special actually to be able to employ I haven't by design kind of, I have an all Muslim team currently that I'm working with, who I'm employing and I'm able to give them a wage on the projects that we're working on and it is quite rewarding. And also, like I know, I can just say, by the way, I know you're fasting, so come on, let's clock off. At this time I need to go to Tarawih. Those little things like they're actually quite special to be able to do that. And more of that will happen if we're supporting Muslim businesses more and more so. So I think it's important, I think participating in the Muslim especially now when we've got these opportunities and we've got these companies that are at the point where they could really make a huge difference I think more of us need to be encouraged to engage and not be so lost in the expense. To a certain extent, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Salih anything to add, say, the onus is on the companies.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, putting Muslim in front of your brand name isn't enough and I think previously and you know there've been scams, as you mentioned, you know just putting muslim in front and capturing that audience immediately, right, um, and because maybe this audience, they see vulnerability and that maybe there's not enough services catering to to the muslim audience, so they want to kind of grab the pie and it's more of like a monetary kind of gain rather than that real intention of providing value to a user.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think Muslims have been burned and so they have this extra layer of skepticism. But also think of it as If you were to create a startup for specialized doctors. Right, when you pitch to them, they are the experts, right, they'll be super skeptical about your startup. They'll know the ins and outs, they'll know the day-to-days. And so think of the Muslim niche is, like you know, we live this life, right, we aim to pray five times a day, we visit the mosque, we are Muslim, we experience what we experience publicly. So when a startup comes in and doesn't really understand that nuance, you're going to face that more than anything, it's a much more emotional but more invested audience. So I think the bar is higher and I think that's fine.
Speaker 2:Just to add to that, I completely agree and I think, if we look at it in a layered way, right, muslims as consumers, I think we need to see whether we can participate in the Muslim economy.
Speaker 2:And for businesses, they need to step up right. And for businesses, I think, like Kestrel or I'm going to use Kestrel as the example to show that our way of doing things is better for everyone and so Muslim businesses are better for everyone. And the small example that I can give when I started to show up because our business Millennial Money, it has a secular audience and I've started to show up more as Niaz the founder, who's Muslim, and since then, I've won campaigns from completely secular brands asking me to speak about the Muslim way of doing things and educate non-Muslims right, which is an amazing opportunity to talk about. So, for example, right now we're talking about Sharia compliant investing for non-Muslims, which is amazing, right. And I think we need to take that angle as well. As businesses, to be like, by the way, so we don't zero in on Muslims and take them for granted Actually try to target everyone and be like our way is actually better for everyone.
Speaker 1:I would also say when companies are doing it right, use their products and give them feedback, like you want that product to be as useful as it should be for you, so that you use it every single day. So, like the ethical screener is that what it's called.
Speaker 4:You can call it this is. We can call it boycott here.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think branding kins has decided on ethical, so like that's super valuable, uh, but they'll only learn if we use it and tell them what we like and what we don't like, so that they can iterate on it and then launch again in in two, three months time with something even more refined. I. I think that's an onus, like if, if these companies fail and don't make it, we should all be really, really upset that that is the case. Um, like I, I say like a mosque, uh, closed down in my area and it shouldn't just be kind of business as usual. That should be like it's a huge loss. Yes, they might have done this, yes, they might have done that, but like we should have rallied behind that mosque and been like really involved, so to kind of prevent that. Look, we're in this room, everyone has downloaded app. Just use it and give feedback is what I would say. Sure.
Speaker 4:Particularly in your area. That's a pretty big deal. Yeah Cool, I think we're running really short on time. There's a lot more I wanted to ask you guys for, but if you had to give one piece of advice to anyone in the room, maybe they're a business owner, maybe they're wanting to become an entrepreneur is there any words of wisdom that you could impart on the audience today? I'd say be vocal, be aggressive and be relentless. Okay, Aggression. Yeah sorry, don't be afraid to shy away.
Speaker 2:I'd say anyone who has entrepreneurial spirit, spirit or ambitions, do it and like, be visible, like. The amount of um impact that you're going to have showing up as a muslim entrepreneur is huge. You don't know who you're going to impact with your words and and show people that wait, there is another way. I think as a community, we've got quite good at earning high incomes, right and like getting those jobs becoming doctors, lawyers, working in finance consulting and that's great, continue to do that. But we can do more than that at earning high incomes, right and like getting those jobs becoming doctors, lawyers, working in finance consulting and that's great, continue to do that. But we can do more than that now and standing on the shoulders of our parents and grandparents and actually be visible as well, because you're going to influence a lot of Muslims who can look at you and be like wait, they made it work and you don't know the seismic impacts that you can have to society at large. So, any entrepreneurs, I think we need you, so come out and be visible.
Speaker 4:Please, yeah, for sure, salik.
Speaker 1:Yeah, capture that, just keep going. Quick, quick story I don't know if anyone has used Bolt, that AI tool where you can build out like a little app just through text. That company has been existing for seven years without making any money. Uh, for the large part of that seven year period, um, and overnight, overnight success, um, they're now 40 million arr just through that one product, um. So, yeah, I'd say, just keep going. If you have an idea, stick at it, pivot where you feel is appropriate, but just keep going for an entrepreneur, just keep going if it's on the back burner for a month or two, maybe a year, but just always have it on your mind and then show up, come down from Luton to come to events like this and so on. So, yeah, just just show up as well, nice one.
Speaker 4:is anyone here from Luton? Okay, thanks for coming. Big round of applause. Thank you so much, guys. Okay, I think we have questions. Yeah, we have time for one or two questions from the audience. So, namira, yeah.
Speaker 5:My question is to Miaz. So this is just a touch base on what you said about the immigrant story, right? So how? The previous generation? They came here in the 60s or during that time period, so the immigrant story is still not of the old People like me we still come here for our education and things like that.
Speaker 5:So my father was an immigrant and now I'm an immigrant with dreams in this country. So for people like me, how do we break the cycle of being restrictive, of being on constant alert that I'm gonna lose my job tomorrow or I have to go back to my country or things like that, and how do we break that cycle and build that wealth? And also for someone who has these dreams of being an entrepreneur and things like that. So how do people like me break that cycle?
Speaker 2:Well, I think. First of all, I think we all have unique opportunities and challenges. I think it's different for our generation. Even though you yourself are an immigrant, my dad was an immigrant as well, and those stories still exist, right, but the opportunities and challenges are both greater. Again, right, and lean into the opportunities and have tawakkul as well. And I think, on the point of you building your wealth and having entrepreneurial spirit, that actually comes down to yourself, right, you have done the amazing thing of leaving the country of your birth and have the courage to come to an entirely new place and start your life here. You're already more courageous than most of us in this room, right? So you've taken huge risks already. Now with, I'd say, add to that like a level of like financial literacy and like, keep like showing up and like learning more. I think you're better set up to actually be an entrepreneur, or take certain risks as well and just be brave and pray and have ta'aqwa and inshallah. May Allah increase you.
Speaker 6:Yeah, go for it. I increase you. Yeah, go for it. I've got a question circling back to the whole point of Muslim-owned businesses and sort of having Muslims as a target audience. Do you think? Well, my question has two parts to it. Do you think it should be a case of someone spending five or ten years in their own game and then coming back considering that they want to do something for the Muslim community, or starting off as a Muslim business owner without any of the ethics and without any of the rules of knowing how to do business properly and then taking Islam up as a name?
Speaker 6:Or do you think it should be a case of?
Speaker 5:not discriminating anyone, for example, this one would obviously be for. Muslims this app, Whereas if you guys had a general social media app, you wouldn't say you're doing this for.
Speaker 4:Muslims, would you?
Speaker 6:So two parts to the question. I hope I made myself clear.
Speaker 4:So is it the idea of leverage? So it's experience right. Where do you gain your experience? Should you go straight? So if someone's a doctor for 10 years and then they get a doctor for Muslims.
Speaker 6:You understand that, but if someone's just started out in business at 21, pay money for services, you're getting responsibility, accountability and commitment and a lot of the Muslim-owned businesses that claim to be Muslims, like they use the word and they have all the hadiths and everything on it there's no accountability to put in there to do something wrong.
Speaker 6:Because they always either blast you in terms of publicly, or what they will do is they'll find some sort of hadith to back themselves up, and then you can't out-give us the Prophet, never, ever, no matter how much money is involved that business won't last long.
Speaker 3:Alhamdulillah that's the whole point the thing you need to think about when it comes to business is sustainability. If you're just using a religious excuse as to why you're not doing your job, maybe fine, I won't argue and I've lost my money. But I will tell you, don't use that guy.
Speaker 2:There's always accountability as well. If you're a practising Muslim, we know there's always accountability, maybe fine. I will argue and I've lost my money but I will tell you, don't lose that guy. There's always accountability as well, right? If you're a practicing Muslim, we know there's always accountability. So we have to show up. And actually this comes back to the point of did we reward mediocrity, did we reward poor service? Right, In the past, actually, the majority of the dawah of Islam happened because of people trading with.
Speaker 2:Muslims because they were so honourable and because they upkept their business so well. So we need to return to that kind of thinking, like I'm going to deal with a Muslim and I can trust him because he's a Muslim. Obviously, it's probably gone the other way now because of some of the experiences I've had, but we should believe that there's always going to be greater accountability.
Speaker 3:And we should hold each other accountable as well. And that's the whole point of what testers are doing today.
Speaker 4:Please come give us feedback about our app. I think this is the highest level of accountability right. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, people are no strangers to leaving reviews about us, good and otherwise.
Speaker 7:But thank you so much, everyone for your time. We have one question from my dad, If I may say so I think probably all the immigrants here in the room. So I think my experience in being in the country since 1978, I just want to make two observations. One is let's be proud of what we have achieved, because when I first came to the city in 1987 to work for me, I would go east without seeing another brown face, let alone a slip.
Speaker 7:So, Alhamdulillah, the fact that you're able to get together, find people with common interests and so on, Alhamdulillah, this is a long way from where we were just, you know, 20, 30 years ago and so on. The second thing I wanted to mention is that we all remember 7-7 and how difficult it was for all of us, for me especially because I was working for the American Bank at the time after 9-11, and I was managing the crisis center to make sure everybody got home, okay. But after those events and you may recall, a week later, there were some people who tried to do the same thing again and that led to a period where anyone who looked Muslim carrying a backpack was potentially targeted, and I seriously considered relocating from the country with the family, and I met someone who I would always be thankful for Iqbal Khan, who set up Fajr Capital Omana.
Speaker 4:Omana set up um um Fajr Capital, fajr Capital and.
Speaker 7:Omana, omana.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he was involved in HSBC Omana and he also set up Fajr Capital and he was a good friend and a good advisor.
Speaker 7:I went to see him, basically to see if he could find me a job in the Middle East, and he sat me down and said why do you want to leave? And I said because of what has happened, I feel really low. I feel that I don't feel comfortable for myself, I don't feel safe for my family. And he said you need to make a promise to me. Two promises. First of all, he said I've seen a lot of Muslims who do really well, get to senior positions but like a deputy or something, but not right to the top, and they leave before they get to the top. We need people to stay and get to the top so we can be good role models. Make sure you won't leave until you get to the top and become a role model.
Speaker 7:And the second thing he asked me to do, which took me a long time to understand why, he said that was never miss Fajr prayer. Yes, and I thought what is the connection between this? It took me a few years to work out how much barakah there is, but if you wake up for Fajr, never miss it. You're not going to miss any of your prayers anyway, but because of that you start the day on the right footing, and I just thought of all the discussion we had. It's important to remind ourselves of those things. Also, it's good to be wealthy, but don't forget, make sure your wealth is halal, and really halal, and think about where it is coming from, and then Barakah will come anyway. Not a question, but more sharing. He wants me on his podcast, that's it. I know I wish on his podcast, that's it.
Speaker 4:I know I wish we had you mic'd up. I don't think any of that will come on the recording, but yeah, I know should have had you there, but no, thank you very much and I think, on that note, it's real close. Thank you for listening to the Muslim Money Talk podcast. If you like what you heard, then please subscribe to muslim money talk. Wherever you might have been listening to this, give us a like and share it with someone who you think might be interested. It really, really helps us out. Thank you, assalamu alaikum, and see you next time.