Muslim Money Talk
Introducing the Muslim Money Talk Podcast, a place for all things Muslim and Money related.
Every week we'll be sitting down with Founders, leaders and industry experts from across multiple disciplines to discuss lessons learned, mistakes made and most importantly 'How they did it?'.
Brought to you by Kestrl: The Muslim Money App, software to help Muslims grow their wealth without compromise. Find out more here: https://kestrl.io/
Muslim Money Talk
Muslim Leadership Expert: Lessons From Muhammad PBUH, The Sahabah & More! | MMT Ep 47 Omar Khaliel
In this episode of Muslim Money Talk, Omar Khaliel, co-founder of the Riba Free Foundation and Muslim CEOs Collective, discusses the urgent need for ethical, long-term Muslim leadership rooted in Islamic principles. He and host Areeb Siddiqui explore wealth stewardship, the importance of servant-led leadership, and how Muslim CEOs can build generational impact by fostering a values-driven, collaborative ecosystem.
This podcast is hosted by Areeb Siddiqui, the founder and CEO of Kestrl, the app that helps people to grow their wealth without compromise
Find out more about our app here: https://kestrl.io/
And how we help banks here: https://business.kestrl.io/
Show Notes:
00:00 - Opening
04:43 – Circular economy & wealth flow in the Muslim community
07:08 – Leadership, governance & building 100-year organizations
12:56 – How Muslim CEOs dinners foster real impact
21:33 – What is servant-led leadership in Islam?
27:16 – Qur’anic leadership lessons: Talut, Khalid ibn Walid, Abu Dhar
45:10 – Vision for the next decade of Muslim leadership
51:22 – The untapped potential of masjids, charities & investors
54:10 – Why Muslim startups struggle with funding
58:29 – Final thoughts & call to action
You run Kestrel, for example, right, will you live beyond 100 years, maybe 80, maybe 70. We need to make sure Kestrel is running for 200, 300 years plus. Muslim wealth exists. There's no issue of wealth. There's no shortage of wealth, but what's being done with it is the problem.
Speaker 2:How would you define it? What is a leader?
Speaker 1:We have the greatest leader to walk the face of this earth, and that is the Prophet Muhammad. Peace be upon him.
Speaker 1:There's no doubt about that because Rasulullah himself he said the Ameer of a people is their servant. People need to just sit back and absorb what that actually means. If we know all wealth belongs to Allah, he actually made a transaction with us. If you look at the last verse of Surah Tawbah, he said Allah has bought the lives and the property of the believers in exchange for what? Jannah? And you have the charity sector that are sat on, millions of dollars sat in bank accounts, decaying. Do you see what I mean? So businesses, masjids and charities, once they scale and grow, become funders in their own right. The problem is we're just not sophisticated as a funding ecosystem.
Speaker 2:In today's episode. I'm really excited to be rejoined for not the second, but the third time, by Umar Khalil. He's back by popular demand. He is the co-founder and the CEO of both the River Free Foundation and more of what he'll be focusing on today, the Muslim CEOs Collective. We're going to be discussing what good leadership looks like in Islam, what is a leader, what is good and what is not so good. We're also going to be talking about some of the glaring holes within the Muslim leadership space today and how it is really impacting businesses and our efforts towards making a truly circular economy.
Speaker 2:As always, I am your host, areeb Siddiqui, and this is Muslim Money Talk. I am your host, areeb Siddiqui, and this is Muslim Money Talk. Before we begin, we actually noticed only about 10% of you are subscribed to the podcast, so if you like what you're listening to and you want to hear more from us and see more things Muslim and money related, then please consider subscribing and, of course, leaving this episode a like and share it with your friends. Leave us a comment or a review, because it really really does help us out and help more people to find us. Thank you. Now back to the show, omar. Assalamu alaikum, warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
Speaker 1:Wa alaikum salam, warahmatullahi wabarakatuh, and it's an honor to be back on for the third time.
Speaker 2:For the third time For the third time.
Speaker 1:I don't know about popular demand, but maybe because you just I don't know for some reason like having me on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I do. I mean, we catch up a lot in real life. I think we should record some of our meetings.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, that's what you said. We have so many interesting conversations. You want to make sure it's recorded, yeah exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:I think you're is number one, because he was his own guest. Then he interviewed me, then we interviewed Najib together as well, and also Mufti Faraz, and then it's you, okay, well, ali doesn't count because, he's part of the family and he's involved in too many good ventures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, including Riverfree Foundation.
Speaker 2:Yes, he is so before we kick off, do you want to do a quick reminder as to who you are and what exactly you do?
Speaker 1:so, firstly, bismillahirrahmanirrahim, my name is omar khalil. I'm the ceo of the riba free foundation. As many of your viewers probably would know, I've been on twice talking about the riba free foundation in particular, but I don't have that out on today, um, and the reason being is because we're going to talk about the Muslim CEOs Collective and we'll go into that. So I'm a co-founder alongside my dear co-founder, abdullah Seed Basit, who's put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into this initiative and he's been very elusive in coming on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he didn't want to come on he's too busy working on too many interesting propositions, so I'll represent on his behalf as well, because you know I always like to give people their credit and he's put a lot of effort into this to make it very successful and you've been to our dinner, so you know, and we've created a very specific community right and we'll no doubt we'll get into that and and it's it's actually an initiative, a joint co-partnership between Ellipsis and the Ribba Free Foundation, and I think one thing that we've noticed for the Ribba Free Foundation is, yes, we talk about Ribba being an issue in society. No doubt it is, but then how do we actually find solutions that bring good people, good businesses, people together in general for the greater good?
Speaker 2:And so this is the reason why this was launched, and that's what I like about it, because in your first episode with us, you talked about the macro issues how Riba broke Britain is what we called it and then your second episode, the Return, you talked about more micro issues how Riba is breaking down marriages and interpersonal relationships, and now it seems like Muslim CEOs Collective is almost like your solution to what you're seeing and trying to educate people about over at Riba Free Foundation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you mentioned circular economy and that's something very close to my heart, and I think what we have to do is I'm not sure if we actually fully understand what a full-flowing, bludgeoning circular economy looks like something that's responsible wealth is being spent and flowing around the economy. I don't think we actually quite understand what it fully means, but what we're hoping to do is, like I said to you last time, Ribbush Free Foundation, alongside so many other great initiatives right now, is just one piece in the puzzle, and we can't do it by ourselves, and this is why, you know, as an organization, one of our founding principles is to work strategically with others.
Speaker 2:Can you define exactly what the Muslim CEO dinner series and Muslim CEO collective is? Yeah, I'll give you some of the context.
Speaker 1:So I think we live in very, very adverse economic times and conditions, and I speak to many people from different cultures around the world and generally when the conversation of economics comes up, they're always talking about their government in some sort of adverse way. Right, some sort of negativity that surrounds the government, oh, they could do this adverse way, right, some sort of negativity that surrounds the government, oh, they could do this. But the general feeling is that they're not looking. Most governments are not looking after the inhabitants of their countries. There's a few exceptions. There's a few exceptions.
Speaker 1:There's a reason why there was a max exodus of rich people that left the uk more than 2000 last year, and they're going to, you know, two or three similar destinations right, which you and I have visited ourselves, and so you know they'll say, well, they're doing, the government's doing really, really great work to look after their inhabitants. Right, this is. But that doesn't really apply to people that have abundant wealth and they go to live on some sort of island or some sort of country where the the economic conditions are ample for them, right? Um, we've got to look at the ones that are less fortunate society, the ones that government are supposed to be, you know, providing, uh, jobs for, um, not just jobs we talk about happiness as well but jobs, economic conditions that they can, you know, schooling systems, public support, all these kind of pathways to prosperity, right, or living with some sort of dignity. So, and, and the reason why it comes back to is like making sure, um, people are happy or content, and that's why you have certain governments now that have employed an actual official, happy minister, believe it or not, yeah, um, but coming back to muslim ceos, what?
Speaker 1:What we saw happening, and this, this kind of delves into two key, two key topics, uh, for me in particular, anyway, is we saw the, the topics of leadership and the topic of wealth.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, what we saw happening was especially in the muslim startup ecosystem, especially in the tech, muslim, uh, fintech startup ecosystem, which you're you know, you know firsthand what that's like is that there's, there's, it's kind of a foundational level of incubated businesses that are being built for the longer term, or they just start up. They're fairly nascent, they're very you know, they, they don't have a long track record, and so we wanted to see well, we need to build organizations that stand the test of time over a hundred year span, and then that delves into two key. Two key issues is having good governance in place and having the correct succession planning in place. Okay, because I mean, if you look at average lifespan as you run kestrel, for example, right, will you live beyond 100 years, maybe 80, maybe 70? We need to make sure kestrel is running for two, three hundred years plus. So, whoever you pass it down to, you've built the wealth, you built the proposition right, and this applies to any startup.
Speaker 1:So it can become a generational brand as opposed to something that makes a quick buck and the reason being because what we see time and time again is I mean, I can, I can relate to my grandfather as well. He built a massive amount of wealth and, um, muslim wealth exists, there's, there's no of wealth, there's no shortage of wealth, but what's being done with it is the problem. And you know and we'll delve into that and how it links back to Muslim CEOs but what we saw was that wealth was actually generationally decreasing or being destroyed, and so that comes down to having the correct understanding of wealth and that ultimately comes down to making sure that you have the correct attributes as a leader. And so most ceos are leaders right, whether they realize it or not. The problem is they don't actually understand leadership necessarily, because they're kind of thrust into building this startup. A lot of people, when they're building a startup, they don't think oh yeah, I'm going to be this type of leader.
Speaker 2:It would help if they did, or if they studied it right but personally it's just you're so busy on building and maybe talking to customers and building and trying to solution that, you don't often think about the culture that you're building, the role or the model that you're setting for your employees, your shareholders, customers. You just get so caught up in that and I guess that's where the good governance you're talking about comes in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, muslim CEOs it was a community specifically for Muslim CEOs and founders, okay, ie, decision makers. So Abdullah Siba and I we're highly networked. We go to a lot of events, from grassroots all the way up to government, right. So we've been there, seen that, done it all before. He himself was one of the he founded GDF and he ran that for about 10 years, and we both had a similar ethos on how people should network and how dinner should be done. Right, and I'll go through our format of how we do our dinner. So you know, we used to go to these networking dinners and what we saw around the world, maybe a few years back, was that there was all this kind of like negativity and people were just feeling doomy and gloomy and and the thing was in the muslim space, or just in general, but in particular in the muslim space. Okay, and when you look at it, people that are in positions of authority and responsibility, ie leadership they have a massive role to play in making this negativity go away or providing some sort of public benefit to people, right, I mean, that's why most people should be doing what they're doing. Money is just not the primary motive for running a startup or a business right? Unfortunately, sometimes it is. Most cases it is, but our traditional islamic way of life doesn't teach this. So, muslim CEOs, is that community for CEOs and founders, and it's only for CEOs and founders. So if you are a director or a finance director or marketing director, it's not for you.
Speaker 1:And the reason being because what we wanted to do in order to get this Muslim sector economy kick-started right, or to propel it, was to make sure that decision makers are sat next to each other, having a conversation and building relationships. Because, for example, say, I'm a networking dinner and I speak to the I don't know the head of finance or the head of a department generally what and you're discussing a business deal generally, what will happen is that if I'm a ceo, I have the ability to discuss whatever I need to discuss. Right, because I have the old, the ultimate decision making authority. But if you're speaking to somebody lower down the food chain, right, they've got to go up to superiors and say I've met this person.
Speaker 1:This sounds like a interesting proposition, can I arrange a meeting? And we just wanted to nip that in the bud and say well, why don't you have both decision makers speaking to one another, developing relationships, talking about one of each other's business, what they're doing, what, what kind of impact they're making. Right, that would be so much better and sorry. Just to add, the reason why we've been really, really strict well, a bit stricter on who can enter and who can't is because otherwise the community loses its focus. So we actually started off with something called the Muslim CEO Dinners.
Speaker 1:So, what we just started off with is dinners. Obviously, a year on, we've rebranded as a muslim ceo collective and you can check it, check out the details on the website that's muslimceoscom um. But we just started off as dinners and we thought, you know what, for one year we're going to trial this. We've done these dinners and the dinners were done in a specific format. So we had, we have a criteria for our dinners. Number Number one they must have private dining. Number two they must have private prayer space. Number three halal food. And number four no alcohol. Okay, that was a kind of the remit of how we put the dinners together and then we made sure that we wouldn't. Initially, when we started off, they were quite large, like when I say large, 30, 35 max. They were quite large, like when I say large 30, 35 max. And obviously we've we've trimmed the numbers down now because it was getting too big, and the reason why when I say large, is because we would go around the room, as you know it's hard to network and everyone to introduce each other and everyone's trying to eat at the same time, so it's a little
Speaker 1:I don't know, it's a little bit sticky yeah, and, and so it's interesting because you've been to a dinner when we first started. In fact, fact, you were at the very first one.
Speaker 1:I was at the first one yeah, and then you came to one recently, right where we've now rebranded as a collective, and you would have noticed the difference, right? Yeah, but coming back to the actual initial dinners, so we would always have a special guest speaker and we obviously had somebody from the Islamic Finance Institute as our first guest speaker and therefore tickets sold out and and these are ticketed events because CEOs and founders have the ability to pay for these it's not an issue, but it's not a money making initiative. That's something I just wanted to be clear on me and Abdullah Siba ourselves actually pay for our own tickets because we wanted to make sure that we built the community based on justice and fairness. So it's only fair that we don't just charge tickets and cover our costs, that we also pay for one because we talk about ourselves and our propositions as well.
Speaker 2:So the tickets are basically just covering the food exactly booking, yeah, entirely so what?
Speaker 1:what happens actually? And that's not entirely true. So when? So we we charge a ticket, you're right, it covers most of the, the booking and the food. Any any money that that is left over is then donated to a charity, with the choosing of the guest speaker. So one thing I didn't mention every dinner has a special guest speaker, and generally we bring quite inspiring guest speakers that have a track record of success. But, more importantly, the reason, one of the key founding principles of this community is making sure that we we collaborate and bring guest speakers that have a clear track record of good conduct and ethics. This is really important, right? Because otherwise, you know, there's no credibility. So this is why, generally, we bring really, really good speakers that have a track record of success and just so to summarize what you guys are trying to do with muslim ceos is you identified a problem in the Muslim space, especially in the West, where Muslims are quite good at generating wealth but not very good at deploying or hanging onto it.
Speaker 2:So idea let's bring together decision makers, because we have a lot of people at Marshall and very senior positions CEOs, founders who are all doing things. But let's try and bring them together and then inspire them through these networking events, through these dinners, to try and introduce oh why don't you guys all come together for some angle? Maybe it's for entrepreneurship, venture capital, charity, whatever it might be. Is that a good summary of what you guys are trying to do?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so one key thing that you mentioned there obviously we come from the Islamic finance industry, right, and so a lot of our first dinner was quite heavily Islamic finance focused because of the guest speaker. But we wanted to make it cross industry, so we specifically made it not in some dinners we made sure that we didn't really invite many people or reach out to many people on Islamic finance, because otherwise we didn't want it just to become an Islamic finance community, right, because otherwise we didn't want to just become an Islamic finance community, right, and Muslim CEOs.
Speaker 1:We have so many different CEOs, types of CEOs, from different cross industries, you know, from fashion to halal food, to travel, to finance, to supply chain, to property, investment, hotels, you name it, right, so it's all there, and so that's why we wanted to make sure that we gave a chance. And here's the other key thing, and you'll know this right, being a CEO and a founder is a very lonely place and sometimes you know you work in seven days a week, you know crazy hours, you don't get enough rest, and then you've got to manage your home life in between and fulfill the rights at home and parents, children, all that sort of stuff, right, and so it become a very lonely place. When you build a community where actually hold on a minute, there's other people that in the same boat as me, right, that I can lean on or get advice from, or listen to their story of success that inspires me, then I can go and ask them for for advice, because these, generally our guest speakers have been there for 15, 20 years plus.
Speaker 2:But not just that, but they also are Muslim and embody the same ideology as you, and that's really, really important, because there's no shortage of just leaders out there in your space. But to find a Muslim leader, especially in the Western world, there's relatively few and far between. So when we all come together like that, it's quite interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on that point, actually the, the for our guest speakers, we do, we do vet, we generally, when we first started off doing the dinners, we would send the invites out. Now that the, so the, the after a year, the, the dinners were such a success, and just in London. But we went around the UK because we realized that there were so many different talented Muslim CEOs all around the country and we also knew we also knew from the outset when we launched this dinner series, that we would unearth talent and it absolutely has happened. There were so many Muslim CEOs that exist out there that we had no idea they were working on such interesting projects like who?
Speaker 1:do you want to shout out anyone? Oh, there's a number. There was a sister that came to our dinner. She came to the first one and she runs something called mirage studios and it's, it's, it's this, it's, it's amazing chic educational program for kids, right, every time I think of it, I was thinking of umar and hannah, because my kids used to watch that right, but it's not actually um a tv production company that's produced it.
Speaker 1:It's a digital app and it's a safe, clean space for for kids to consume content. Do you see what I mean? For example, your kids are on youtube. Uh, you're quite worried um that's what I mean, and and she came to our co dinner introduced her propositions called mirage studios.
Speaker 2:Check it out I thought it was really cool. We're actually getting her on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I showed it to you as well right when you came in and and she came to that CEO dinner and she came back to the following one.
Speaker 2:In.
Speaker 1:Birmingham, no, in London. Oh, okay, Because she loved the first one so much and she's like I've never been surrounded in a community where I can speak to people that are on my level and that are going to understand going through the same problems that I go through.
Speaker 2:Yes, do you see what I?
Speaker 1:mean. So that's why it's, if we allowed anybody to come in, it would lose its strategic purpose and it would lose its actual purpose, for sure, for sure. And you know we unearthed her in London, but we went all the way to Bradford, birmingham, manchester, we did a multiple in London and now we're going to 12 cities this year.
Speaker 2:Amazing. So one thing aside from all this, I really want to ask you you've met so many leaders, you've been doing this for a while as well, and you also teach this leadership, and you're teaching that at. Is it Queen?
Speaker 1:Mary's University. I did a four-week session there, so I actually teach this just through the RFF.
Speaker 2:Oh, through River Free Foundation Before I set up RFF.
Speaker 1:I was actually going to set up a specialist leadership program. What I've done is I've just embedded it into the RFF, because leadership is one of those subject matters where it affects most people's lives. And you know because, like you mentioned, you know we do meet a lot of people in positions of authority. So what?
Speaker 2:how would you define it? What is a leader?
Speaker 1:So that's a that's a brilliant question and something that you know time doesn't permit. I mean, it's a very long, deep discussion, but there's no actual universal definition of leadership. If you look at academics throughout the 1900s, they've tried to come up, they will try to come up with definitions of leadership, because it's such a subjective matter. It's difficult, however, however, I think, because as Muslims, as believers, we have a holistic way of life. For us, it's very simple we always go back to first principles, ie Quran and Sunnah, and we had not just the greatest man ever to walk the face of this earth, we had the greatest leader to walk the face of this earth, and that is the Prophet Muhammad. Peace be upon him. There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you about how he was revered by even not in his enemies, but non-Muslims as well, throughout the 1900s, recent times, in recent times. Just to go back to answer your question, this is something that Makes me think a lot, very, very deeply, because Rasulullah himself, he said, the Amir Of a people Is their servant, right, and People need to just Sit back and absorb what that actually means, because you have the greatest man Right, ie, the Prophet of Allah, allah SWT Himself, saying that I Am leading the people, but I'm their servant. I'm here to serve them. Prophet of Allah, allah SWT himself, qawzim Habibullah, right, saying that I Am leading the people, but I'm their servant. I'm here to serve them. Do you see what I mean? And there's three specific types of Leadership that I do discuss in my leadership Workshops that I put on, and they are ethical leadership, transformational leadership and servant led leadership. Okay, and I think we discussed this on a podcast before we did briefly last time but but russell some, he, he encapsulated all three.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean? But servant-led leadership is the one that people need to learn and study and occupy themselves with, because this is the most important one. When you understand the whole purpose of what your position of authority entails, then you start to change your mindset on how you transform people, inspire people, build organizations, build departments, with the goal of having a positive impact upon society and people.
Speaker 2:So can you give me some examples from the Prophet Muhammad's life of servant-led leadership?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, for example, there, example, there's many, I mean there are many. There's one that comes to mind, particularly comes to mind now um, and I'll paraphrase the story where he's riding a mule or an animal and he, he'd ridden it for so long and somebody who's with him, he got off and he made sure somebody else had their ample time to settle on it so everybody had sufficient rest. In fact, there's a very famous narration of when. Remember, when they were entering Medina and Manawar, the Ansar had never seen him before, so he was actually holding the horse where somebody was sat on it, and they thought that the Prophet Muhammad was sat on the horse, but no, he was he was, actually he was a lot of people didn't quite understand.
Speaker 1:And then not just the life of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him but also the Khulafa al-Rashidun Umar. He was a phenomenal leader. He would have, you know, most people, dignitaries of countries, would come and he would have his office sat under a palm tree and people wouldn't like where's your leader? And he sat over there. Do you see what I mean? So they had this.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Muslim Money Talk. If you like what you've heard so far, you might be interested in checking out what we do at Kestrel, the Muslim Money app. Kestrel is a service that helps Muslims who want to grow their wealth without having to compromise, whether it's on their belief or user experience or price. I founded Kestrel because of how fed up I was at how poor Islamic financial services were in this country. Often people didn't use them because of how bad the user experience or customer service and indeed, how high in price they were. So Kestrel was the answer to that. If you download the Kestrel app today, it can help you by creating a budgeting plan. Plug in whatever bank account you have and it will create an auto budget just for you. You can then tell us what goals you're saving for, and we'll save towards them automatically into pots and then, crucially, link you towards Sharia compliant investment and savings products as well. So download Kestrel today and try it out for yourself.
Speaker 2:Now back to the podcast. Can I ask you what makes a good leader? And I think it's so pertinent now, not just in business, but in politics. When you look at the Muslim world today, a lot of people look to defer to age seniority, even like people of knowledge, scholars, which absolutely have their place. But does knowledge age equate to leadership?
Speaker 1:It's a very good question. It's a very good question. It's a very good, very, very deep question. So, look, the first thing we have to do we have to leadership. There's so many leadership examples within the quran. There's so many, and I think if people just study surah bakra alone, they would, they would see so many answers, especially towards the, the latter part of Surah Baqarah.
Speaker 1:There's a very famous story within Surah Baqarah, in fact, just before the end, before you get into the kind of the trade and the riba based ayahs, where the Bani Israel had a few generations after Musa's remnants had been lost and they were being persecuted, and they asked Allah for a leader. And I'll quickly paraphrase the story. But they expected so. When they'd asked Allah SWT for a leader, they expected Allah SWT to choose somebody from within their tribe. And also they made a very, very key point on this they expected Allah SWT to choose somebody who had wealth. Why was that?
Speaker 1:Because there's well, it's a double edged sword, because there's no doubt that with wealth, you can influence things for sure, right? But if you have the wrong mindset that accompanies that wealth, then it does the complete opposite, right? And this is why you have to look at. You know, when we're looking at understanding leadership or understanding wealth, we have to have. Islam has a holistic way of life and you can't just look at them in silos or isolation. Do you see what I mean? So if you have wealth and you don't understand how what islam's take is on managing wealth, you're already at a disadvantage and you may not fulfill the rights of having that wealth and you may, you know, oppress people, for example, with that wealth. Ie, for example, there's external factors you must consider and internal, ie the heart. Uh, what is your greed like? Do you love the wealth? You know, islam teaches all these aspects and that's why, when you're looking at leadership and wealth, they're kind of linked um, so these factors must be considered.
Speaker 1:So they wanted someone with wealth and also so they know, so when they asked allah for a leader, they expected Allah SWT To give them somebody who was of noble lineage, ie from them, bani Israel, and also somebody who had wealth. He actually chose somebody else Right, and his name was Talut. And so when Allah SWT told them, this is your leader, they weren't happy. Okay, and there was a back and forth in terms of conversation, in terms of their supplications, and you know they were a bit bewildered and he's not from us, he's not of noble lineage and he doesn't have a lot of money. But Allah SWT said to him no, the reason why he's your leader is because he has knowledge.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean. Knowledge is really, really important. You know there's this saying now you gain this knowledge. But when Allah SWT said he had knowledge, he didn't only have the knowledge, he had the action, the amal and the hikmah, the wisdom to go with it, and therefore he would then know how to manage people, how to manage wealth, how to defend people, put his own greed to a side, and you know that servant-led leadership. If you look at most prophets, they were servant-led leaders For sure. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 2:But I want to push back on that point a little bit. Okay, I absolutely understand and appreciate that knowledge is very, very important in order to guide people effectively, to understand their motivations, to move them towards a common goal. But then there are some stories, especially in the time of the Sahaba I'm very conscious of Khalid ibn Walid. Okay, one of the I think it's, without a doubt, one of the greatest leaders in Islam completely undefeated in battle, even when he was fighting against the Muslims. Yeah, his knowledge wasn't very high. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Famously, he would sometimes mess up his recitation of surahs. There's like his knowledge of the deen itself. When, in comparison to Abu Dhar, which is a very example, a very interesting example, of someone who specifically requested a leadership position from the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him but was told no, it's not something that is right for you, you know, whereas he was one of the, you know, most blessed companions, I think, the fifth person ever to accept Islam, in terms of seniority and knowledge. He absolutely outranked other individuals. Yet most blessed companions, I think, the fifth person ever to accept Islam in terms of seniority and knowledge. He absolutely outranked other individuals, yet he was never given that gift of leadership.
Speaker 1:So I want to kind of throw that out there we have to be careful and very clear on how we define what types of leaders and where they specialize. So you talk about Khalid bin Walid and Abu Dada al-ghafari, two very, very different personalities, for sure, and archetypes. So um khalid bin waleed, obviously. When you say about knowledge, so having a dini knowledge, like the knowledge of the religion, is one aspect, and then this is why the beautiful thing of Islam Is that you split it into parts of Sharia Fiqh al-ibadat and fiqh al-mu'malat, right, and I'll explain it In this matter for those of you that don't understand what that means. So fiqh al-ibadat is the Jurisprudence of worship which was perfected by the Prophet Muhammad Peace upon him Before he departed this world, right. Fiqh al-mu'malat is social transactions.
Speaker 1:Of everyday life, right Economics and all the sorts of Social interactions, daily transactions, living in this world.
Speaker 1:So that's called fiqh al-mu'malat and that they were principles that were defined for that Right. And these are things that you would have spoken to Mufti Faraz about. Islamic finance falls under fiqh al-mu'minat, ibadat. We don't have a say in the matter. It was perfected, it was done and therefore we just follow. Mu'minat has more say.
Speaker 1:So, khalid bin Waleed. He was a specialist in strategic military. He was a generalist, he was a military general and that's what his specialism was. He was a leader. So remember, he wasn't a muslim when he first fought the muslim uh, when he fought against the prophet, peace be upon him but he was no doubt a leader. Right, he didn't have the deening knowledge, but when he did start to embed that, look at what happened to him, look at his trajectory.
Speaker 1:Khalid bin waleed right, and there's obviously there's a whole history behind him. When he did take on the religious based knowledge, it transformed his character. That's the key thing. For example, before a Muslim, before he was a Muslim, there were so many different Aspects of society that were just backward, and so when he became a Muslim, it kind of not only did he Because you mentioned about speaking about the Quran, these are things that people can improve but, for example, it was a Tradition of the Arabs At the time To bury daughters alive. So there was loads Of traditions that were that kind of Be backwards so with Islam, it kind of Liberated them To say that this is a better Way of life, you don't actually Need to do that. Where did you get that divine revelation? This is what you follow.
Speaker 1:So, and if you look at generally what islam promotes or, for that matter, what the true essence of all abrahamic religions, or any religion for that matter, promotes, it generally would lead to a reformation of character, ie being the best possible version of yourself.
Speaker 1:That's the role of religion. Unfortunately, that's not how it's been misconstrued very badly in this day and age, right, because people think that, oh, this person practices religion is not necessarily good, but that's not how you look at a religion, right? Um? So, coming back to khalid bin waleed and abu dhari as well, so, for example, he then went on to conquer romans, he then went on to conquer the byzantians. These are two major empires and I don't think that would be impossible if he hadn't taken on both the, if he he had the knowledge of being a military commander and he had the knowledge of you know, being strong and understanding how to manage people. But when he took on the Ibadat side of things, it transformed his whole leadership style and how he would manage people and how he would put himself at the front Of the army. So he was a transformational character.
Speaker 2:Tell me about Abu Dhar, then, because he's often quoted in examples of sometimes and I think they're misquotations of Hadith, where it's said that people who seek out leadership are not good leaders, that you shouldn't be seeking out leadership. I think there are two Hadiths specifically, and one of them involves Abu Dhar, who specifically went to the Prophet Muhammad and asked for a leadership position was denied, and the other involves two young men who approached the Prophet Muhammad and asked to be leaders and they were told no as well, but for two different reasons. So do you think we should talk about those?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's something that I'm quite. I have my own kind of selection criteria for when I'm employing people as well, so I think the best way to talk about it is look for the life of the Khulafat Ashidun and remember they. Only they were transformed by the life of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. But they're all different types of personalities, right? So Abu Dharul Gifari, he was a very specific character, very different, and so I don't know if there's a lot of misconception around this, but I'll explain it in a very clear manner so people can understand. Because for you to be sahabi, you have a higher status For sure.
Speaker 1:Because you've lived and you've sweat and given blood and sweat and tears with the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, right and you're sinning with your naked eye and then you've died in a state of iman. That is what a sahabi, okay. So, khalid bin Waleed Obviously, as you know, he converted to Islam After fighting against the Muslims, and a key thing on that point to note as well Is because you know, khalid was a very strong character, right. So his archetype was very, very different. He was a warrior, he had a warrior mentality. He was a natural leader. Okay, um, can leaders be born or are they made? They're absolutely made. Yes, somebody can have have inherent, innate characteristics as a leader, but they can be made, right? That's another misconception within leadership. So he was naturally gifted in that regard anyway. So you can see his trajectory was going to become a leader. Abu dhalad ghaffari, um. So what?
Speaker 1:There was a very famous narration, and I encourage people to listen to, uh, sheikhs umar soliman from the us, um. He has done a fantastic series on explaining this story and also on the wealth and economics and leadership, and he explains that basically, when leadership positions were being given out right when muslims had conquered and amassed all this wealth, yeah, and the, the arabian peninsula was growing right and you need more custodians and people to manage certain districts and and and have more governors in place. And the thing is you, you have to make, you have to understand a couple of aspects. When you're a leader, you're going to be in charge of affairs involving people and therefore you have to have two considerations Haqquq Allah and Haqquq Al-Ibad the rights of Allah and the rights of people. And as a leader, we are not allowed to oppress people. We must provide for them. This is why the Prophet Muhammad said that a leader, the emir, is their servant. He has to look after the rights of the people and generally what happens is people don't realize that people want to jump to leadership positions, but it involves a lot of sacrifice for the leader itself. If you understand what a servant-based leadership is, because you've got to understand that before your own kind of like your, you know your own kind of like requirements and demands to be, to be a human being or have some sort of dignity, you have to look at other people's rights before your own. So if you suffer in the process, as that, that's the whole responsibility of a leader. So, abu dhar.
Speaker 1:When rasul was given out these positions, he came to him and you know he was, he was like he, he was, he kind of stood up and he was expecting the leadership role. And rasul came to him and he said not for you. And he had a private conversation with him and I'm paraphrasing he said to him I don't know of any Sahabi who has more Sidq in his heart. Right, this is what he said to Abu Dharr, and what that means is, basically, rasulullah is vouching for his level of Ikhlas and purity in his heart, as in. I don't know anybody who is more cleaner, right, but he said you don't have the characteristics To be a successful leader. And what Rasulullah explained to him Is that.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, just to be clear, because Rasulullah was the greatest leader, he had something called Juwami Al-Kalam. So when he was telling Abu Dhad this, he was saying to him look, wallahi, I don't know anybody who has more siddq in his heart. And he said this above all, the Sahaba, as in, like you, are the best. But, trust me, leadership is not few. Why? So? One of the reasons that the scholars say is because, well, it was his character, it was his nature, right, abu Dharrif had. Islam had such a profound effect on him and he was such a good natured person. His heart was so pure and clean. He couldn't really see oppression take place or people going against the obligations of Islam. And so Rasulullah was worried that because his iman was of such a high caliber and level, he would expect other people to have that same level, because for him that was a norm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the way I've heard it described is that he wasn't a people person. He wasn't good at motivating or leading in groups of people.
Speaker 1:I don't think I necessarily agree with that. The point was that he may be particularly harsh with people. Yes, that was it, I think, the famous example which was so it's not that he, and that's why he let him down gently, he let him down with dignity and respect. He didn't say to him oh sorry, not for you, you're not a good leader. No, he went and explained he said no, I don't know anybody who has more Sikh in his heart.
Speaker 2:Well, there's a lot of wisdom in the way in which that was done as well, Because the famous example which I remember, which, during the time of Uthman radiallahu anhu, during his caliphate, Abu Dhar radiallahu anhu was in Syria. He'd gone to Syria at that time and the governor of Syria wrote to Uthman radiallahu anhu and said please send him back. Why? It's because the way he was engaging with people and talking to people and please correct me if I'm wrong, but he had built up an idea about wealth in Islam and his point was that it was not enough to just pay Zakat. He was really of the mindset that you should not sit on or save more than three days worth of expenditure, three days worth of saving Everything else you must use in the way of Islam. You should spend, you should push into the economy, which is very similar to what we were talking about, the secular economy, but taken to another level and to the point where he was going around berating people, almost rubbing people up the wrong way.
Speaker 1:So so, so let me explain it in this manner, right? Because imagine when Umar was was being talked about to become the person to succeed Abu Bakr. Yeah, umar was a very harsh man as well. The difference between Umar and Abu Daud Is that Umar had a bit more life experience In terms of trading and managing people, although both were fairly deemed as harsh people.
Speaker 1:When we say harsh, we need to understand that a man was so high that they expected other people to be on par with them, if not better. Do you see what I mean? So it's not a position of Arrogance or anything like that. No, rasulullah was worried that actually. Do you know what he may? So, for example, everybody has a different Ability level, right, and has a different Threshold for sacrifice. What Rasulullah Sacrificed Most people can't do. What Abu Dhar Sacrificed Most people can't do.
Speaker 1:He was an aesthetic. Do you see what I mean? He was a Zahid, so he lived With very little means. The problem was, if he made that, if you had Abu Dhar In a position of leadership and he expected Everybody to be an aesthetic, it just wasn't Functional in society and that's something that Rasulullah Was worried, was worried about. That would actually turn people against him. That's, that was the only reason, but the point was and I'll say this again is that it was not a knock to him as a person, and this is what we have to understand as well. You know, sometimes, when we're promoting people for our companies or we're employing people, they may just not. They have a fantastic cv, they may just not be the right fit for your company or your circumstances, and this is Allah's risk at the end of the day. Yeah, do you see what I mean? I think you know. Especially when you're promoting people, people get like okay, there's two, there's two or three people that you can promote and people get upset.
Speaker 1:They shouldn't get upset this part yeah what I mean, because because everybody has their own trajectory and you know, I've seen this throughout my corporate career as well. So I think myself why does that person get promoted? They don't deserve it. But then I looked back and thought actually, do you know what, For that particular department and for that particular role, they were the best fit? Do you see? What I mean and that's what leadership is about is being the best fit for people and making sure that the person understands his rights upon society.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of people forget this. They kind of expect you know I'm senior. I've of expect you know I'm senior, I've been here for a long time, I'm more deserving than someone who maybe has just gone in there. But there's so many examples from history. Um, I think osama was 17 years old when he was appointed a general yeah, yeah, yeah yeah mehmed the conqueror right. He famously conquered constantinople. Istanbul was 17 or 18 years old just you know, a teenage boy when he yeah yeah, and, and you're spot on.
Speaker 1:See the example of when I was talking about Talut in the Quran. He wasn't necessarily the oldest, but he had specific knowledge. Yeah, and what Allah SWT Was telling them is Just because you have wealth and you have status Does not automatically Propel you to a leadership position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the point. Yeah, do propel you to a leadership position.
Speaker 1:That was the point. Do you see what I mean? And that was the point he was teaching the Bani Israel.
Speaker 2:Right, there's somebody who's maybe younger, from less lineage, but he knows how to lead you way better than any of you do and I think I heard this told really well, I think we might have even discussed it in the last podcast is that the best leader can adapt to who they're in front of, who's in front of them, to who they're in front of who's in front of them. Because the one thing that the Prophet Muhammad was really able to do was exactly that. There were times when he would bring people in by talking about the reward of Islam. There were times where he would warn people by talking about the punishment. There were times where he would present and be able to be a showman and talk to people and loud audiences and bring them towards Islam.
Speaker 2:There were times where he would be a role model. He was Islam. There were times where he would be a role model. You know, just through. He was the walking, talking Quran itself right, so bringing them there, and he was able to embody all of those characteristics. But also, when he needed to, he could debate and persuade and talk to those people who were arguing with him, and he could do all five of those things incredibly, incredibly well when he needed to, depending on the person who was in front of them.
Speaker 1:And that's the reason why an academic in the name of john adair has actually written a book on this. He's a he's a non-muslim, a non-muslim he's, he's. He's written about the character, the um, the prophetic characteristics of the prophet muhammad peace be upon him, and that was in the, I think, the 1960s. He's written this book. His name is john adair. He talks about the leadership style of the Prophet Muhammad. It's profound. It's profound Because he examined his life and he realised, actually, that Rasulullah, sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, he had this profound effect on people.
Speaker 1:And that's why, when we talk about leadership, there's a couple of things that you have to understand as a leader. You must be inspiring people, you must be fulfilling their rights, you must be providing them, but you must be transforming them at the same time. And if you look at the Rasulullah, anybody that was around him, he had the ability to transform them as people and also affect their mindsets. I would say, when I look at a leader, whether it's From Islamic times or even in modern times, I look at their ability to say what effect are they having on society? More importantly, what effect are they having on people around them? And if it's somebody who's managing the company example, is really, really important, and this is relevant to yourself as well. You run a company and many others do. You must be instilling a good corporate culture within your company, because your company is a reflection of that and you're the one that built that company.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean? So if you are not transforming your employees, you're not inspiring them. They're not coming. So one one thing I think about a lot when I, when I, go into work, does it feel like work or does it feel like something else? If I willfully go into a place of work and I don't call it work, that means you're doing the corporate culture is correct. But if people like treating this as a transactional relationship right, I've seen a lot of successful leaders that they have this ability. Like people come into the workplaces and they're inspired to come in every day, yeah, work, late hours, work on projects that excite them it doesn't feel like work to them. Do you see what I mean? So what?
Speaker 2:we're running a little short on time, but I really want to get your final thoughts on this. Where do you want muslim ceos, muslim leadership, to be within the next 10 years? What change or transformation do you want to see in the uk, across the western world, within the next 10 years?
Speaker 1:so I think we've got to understand, um, when it comes to wealth, right and this is very much a wealth discussion is, how do we build generational wealth? And that's got to be done by first building the correct relationships and the strategic partnerships, and that's got to be done by people that come together for a greater good. So one of the reasons why Muslim Seals was developed was basically, we can go around the UK, we'll have these dinners, we'll bring together people from all parts of the UK where there's prominent Muslim business communities, and then we can present this proposition and it's a safe space for Muslims to come together and talk about anything they want to talk about. You know, alhamdulillah, in the last less than a year, we've had requests from Dubai, riyadh, australia, canada, nigeria, yes, and so we kind of just put the kind of stops on for a while and said and said, look, let us kind of consolidate first in the uk. Yeah, no doubt we will do that.
Speaker 1:So but what we want, we want them all doing business with one another. Do you see what I mean? To develop that circular economy. We mentioned this before right. At the end of the day, you need legal help sometimes. You need you all, you all need an accountant right.
Speaker 1:You may need supply chain, you may need stock of some sort so if you can go to these other business people that have a similar ethos and mentality to you, because you know, when it comes to wealth, right, we've got to understand that there's a massive misconception to wealth. Who does wealth belong to? Ie Allah. Number two do we have the correct understanding of it? Ie the holistic way of life, not just pigeonholing it? Ie learning about the management of wealth and what the Quran and Sunnah say on it. And number three we must make sure that our wealth Leaves a positive legacy and a positive impact on society. If we don't understand this, then we are just going through life Right, spending money here and there. Because you've got to understand, as Muslims, the epicentre of the Islamic heritage and empire where we were building everything. We were producers, not consumers. The problem is now we've become consumers and not producers. And so algebra, mathematics, the camera, medicine, infrastructure public welfare.
Speaker 2:The idea of an endowment fund, the charitable endowment, was a walk. It was Islam and the islamic empire that that brought that and was used to do everything from building roads, public transport, healthcare, universities. That was done and it kind of fell during the colonial times and now it's sort of been reclaimed. But like every university major body has an endowment. But we're not really seeing that as much from the islamic world anymore.
Speaker 1:So that's why it's important that we now go back to being producers, and right now the producers of what the entities and the organizations that have all the power now is big business, and that's why it's important that we build businesses that last the test of time, make sure that generational wealth is being grown. There's a very profound saying by a sheikh. There's a sheikh that I listened to recently in australia and he said that if you look at three cycles of generational wealth, somebody builds it, the children spend it and by the third time it's already gone. Do you see what I mean? And he and there's a there's a clear, there's a very clear reason behind that is because the ones that are able to build generational wealth, they have the correct understanding of wealth right and and this is a really Really key Principle that Because there's two, these two subject matters.
Speaker 1:You know I am quite Passionate about Both leadership and wealth, but we have to understand that all wealth. You know, previously I said in your podcast that we're fund managers. Yeah. I really mean that, because Once you understand that all wealth Belongs to Allah, mean that because once you understand that all wealth belongs to allah and it's not ours, you, you, you would, if once you fully understand that right, and I'm not saying just by saying, because many say with their tongue but they don't action.
Speaker 1:And this is the problem that we find in our society today? Right, uh, why muslim startups can't get the the funding that they require, or why the muslim? Uh funding space is so underdeveloped? Right, where's the muslim angels? Where's the muslim vcs? Where's the philanthropic donor funds? Right, we're so underdeveloped. Right, where's the Muslim angels? Where's the Muslim VCs? Where's the philanthropic donor funds? Right, we're very underdeveloped. We're very nascent, and this is something that we need to build, because the thing is to become producers. Again, there's a level of funding required, and that's why money is not the root of all evil. Right, money only becomes a burden if it's not used and spent In the halal manner. Right, in the manner which is Befitting to Allah, because Allah has made a transaction with us, and this is what a lot of people Don't understand. So, when I'm delivering these sessions To people that have A lot of wealth, right, we have to go for a period Of like Declogging all that Colonial thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, re-education.
Speaker 1:Exactly Collabor, collaborating the brain. Because, if we know, all wealth belongs to Allah, he actually made a transaction with us. If you look at the last verse of Surah Tawbah, he said Allah has bought we're talking about Islamic finance transaction now Allah has bought the lives and the property of the believers. In exchange for what? Jannah. So that's the transaction that was made. So if you're a believer and this is something really important to understand If you're a believer, and this is something really, really important to understand If you're a believer you need to understand that you made this transaction. So your life and your wealth For the sake of Allah, but he's given you Jannah in return, a place where there's only play, there's no bad talk, there's no grief, there's no sadness, whatever you wish for, you'll have servants, your house will be made out of pearls and gold bricks, etc. So you, whatever you imagine you, you'll have it right, not like the dunya. You made this transaction for eternal bliss, for this short-term, temporary life and wealth. If you fully understand that, then you realize, actually, do you know what? If that is the case, this wealth that allah bestowed upon me, I have to spend it in a manner which is befitting to what he expects of me? Now, that's why the wealth discussion comes in. What does allah expect of me? And that's the whole subject matter in of itself. But what I find? What I find?
Speaker 1:A lot of wealthy people don't understand this. The ones that do right, the ones that do so, if you look at, look at it, look at it from this perspective businesses, masjids, andids and charities. The Muslim ecosystem, right, and this is something that we looked at, you know, very deeply at RFF. Businesses you want to grow them right. Masjids they're also now masjids. Some they have substantial assets, they have a big balance sheet right. And then you have the charity sector that are sat on millions of dollars, sat in bank accounts decaying.
Speaker 1:Do you see what I mean. So businesses, masjids and charities, once they scale and grow, become funders in their own right. The problem is the problem is we're just not sophisticated as a funding ecosystem, and that's something that we're still working on. Working on because once, once, a business has become successful and it has its excess wealth, it must be looking at okay, what's the bird's eye view of all the societal needs that, as muslims, that we need right now. It's their responsibility to go and support those businesses yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2:Some of the most skeptical people we get out there when we're fundraising, yeah, are muslim investors. Yes, muslim angels I know all about this.
Speaker 1:You were there at one of our pitches. Yeah, I was a was a judge and I heard it all and some of the stuff that I was listening to.
Speaker 2:I was absolutely dumbfounded which was interesting because some of our most staunch supporters and investors are non-Muslims who kind of treat us the same way as they might, you know, a Monzo or a Starling or a conventional fintech. But because there's this kind of Muslim element there, it's kind of like, oh come on, let's bring it down, let's bring the price down, let's bring the valuation down, so it doesn't make you want to play ball with other Muslims.
Speaker 1:I think and it pains me to say this, and this is something that we're trying to change the narrative of is, when you're branded as a Muslim startup, you're already working adversely to to get investment. Unfortunately, right, it's kind of like in their minds and and you and I both know this right, there's many muslim startups, especially in the in the tech space, that have come and gone for all the wrong reasons and they've done a lot of damage. Yes, and this is one again, another, one of the fundamental reasons rff started to exist is because we wanted people to come to uh, one, one kind of like area to say has this organization been vetted? Was this investment been vetted? And then they can look for our directory, which is about to be launched, and say, yes, it's been vetted by the Rewrush Foundation.
Speaker 1:Because you know, as you know, there's many investment Ponzi schemes that have come along in the name of religion and Islam that have done a lot of damage, and that's one of the reasons why you have a real tough cracker getting investment. But nevertheless, having said that, I've been in the conventional finances, financial spaces and I've been a judge on panels and I've looked at how non-muslims do this. First of all, obviously, they're a bit more sophisticated. If you look at the muslim angel space, muslim vc space, I would say you hardly you haven't got a muslim vc space that doesn't have some sort of level of interest involved.
Speaker 1:For example or an a equity sharing way of doing business, or or a a partnership way of doing business where it's you know, where it's not too greedy, right? Because the problem we find? I think Muslims are a little bit confused between impact-led investing and ROI investing.
Speaker 2:Do you see what I mean.
Speaker 1:They're a little bit confused. It's that sometimes, when they're, it's like, okay, this proposition let's take our examples right. Ours is very much an impact-led initiative. Yours is a return on investment because you're building a business. What I say is, propositions like Kestrel are just too important to not survive or allow them to die out. Do you see what I mean? For what you're standing for and what you're trying to do, especially with you now? I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your new digital banking.
Speaker 2:No, it's okay.
Speaker 1:We revealed it in the last episode of dying. So this is really important to our ecosystem, right? Because we need more options where we can park our money, where we know the likes of people that are running those companies are going to do responsible things with our money. Yeah, do you see what I mean? Rather than the barclays and the halifaxes and the santanders. So this is why we we need to come back to that producer mindset and I am quite positive to say that people are producing and building, but we need now a 10, 15-year span. But the point is wealth Muslims that have wealth they have a massive responsibility to incubate these businesses or these ventures and the charities that are sat on this money. Make sure, okay, rather than have that money sat on your bank account, give it to an investment proposition that's Sharia compliant. At least grow that wealth, don't let it sit there.
Speaker 1:Because, sometimes you know we're talking about. Oh, this I mean for me. I get approached so much by so many not just good people but building interesting propositions. But you know what? Just 2% or 3% of that charity's funding can actually incubate this business and it's just sat there in their bank account rotting away, because, you know, sometimes they leave a six-month gap. Right, that's a charity. Masjids, for example. Right, they are not managing their finances properly. You know they can't continue to rely on this Friday donation policy only For me.
Speaker 2:I'm a big advocate of running masjids as investment centers what if east london masjid had like an accelerator scheme where they could incubate many companies and they could work from there as an office as well? Companies which meet a specific criteria, right. But imagine something like that, just like a small fraction, some little startup funding coming from a masjid. Nothing like that exists right now.
Speaker 1:So there's a. I'm going to come back. This is a really good point. So there's a couple of masjids that are trying to do this, but unfortunately, the mindset of Masjid is very different, and there's an ayah in the Quran that Allah says. It's in Surah Baqarah, I can't remember the number. However, he says facing your Face to the east of west is not righteousness. Then he goes on to say following divine decree, the prophets and the books and the angels. And then he goes on to say spending out of your wealth despite one's love for it. Do you see what I mean? You don't want to talk about a fund manager. We talk about a believer. He made that transaction your, your wealth and your life, your property and your life for jannah, right? So what, what? What allows Allah to love you so much Is that Everybody loves wealth. Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's no doubt about it, right, and it's a very testing thing, right. Allah SWT says as in your Children and your wealth Are the you know they're a test for you, and children and wealth Are the biggest adornments of dunya. Right. When you have children, you realise, when you have children, you absolutely realise Right, that all these Nothing else matters Exactly right.
Speaker 1:And then Some small thing they do in your day Just cheers up your day, or their smile, or whatever, right? So that's why you know, this is why it's such a big test. But but what Allah is telling us in this ayah Is saying look, you know, just Just praying and facing, your Facing towards the Qibla, and just doing that Is not enough to be a Muslim. That's your entry level. Prayer is what makes you a believer. Do you see what I mean? And that's the base level of the house that propels your other work, the prayer, right, but what he's saying Righteousness Is giving away or spending Out. But what he's saying righteousness is giving away or spending out of that which you love, because, despite you loving it, you're giving it to somebody else. This is good leadership and this is what endears you to Allah as well. Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 2:So that's why it comes back to your example. That's an incredible way to end it, because we are completely over time. But what do you think? Maybe we should bring you back for a fourth one. They might be sick of me by then. Maybe we'll see how it goes, omar, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2:It's been a genuine pleasure thank you for listening to the muslim money talk podcast. If you like what you heard, then please subscribe to muslim money talk. Wherever you might have been listening to this, give us a like and share it with someone who you think might be interested. It really, really helps us out. Thank you, assalamu alaikum, and see you next time.