Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina dive into the first of a three part series on discipline. They delve into an eye-opening conversation about the difference between discipline and punishment. With a focus on growth and emotional well-being, they reveal how traditional punitive approaches can actually harm kids’ mental health and disrupt their sense of attachment. 

Through personal anecdotes and real-life examples, they share how modeling positive behavior and offering "do-overs" can transform challenges into opportunities for growth. They emphasize that resilience is built when kids are given the space to make mistakes and learn from them—without fear of shame or retribution.

This conversation also explores the critical role of co-parenting, highlighting how understanding the "why" behind a child’s behavior is key to fostering a supportive and connected relationship. Rather than resorting to punishment, they champion a non-punitive, empathetic approach that nurtures both emotional safety and long-term development.

It’s a conversation that’s as heartwarming as it is enlightening, showing how a little compassion and a lot of patience can help children—and parents—grow together.

Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood is recorded and edited by Dave Purnell and produced by Jen Plante Johnson for the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan.

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved go to: www.odcnetwork.org.

Transcript

 Episode 10: Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

Heather  00:00

Welcome everyone to the first episode of our three-part series on discipline. Today, we're diving into the difference between discipline and punishment and embracing a growth focused approach to discipline over a punitive model.

Kristina  00:13

That's right. Discipline isn't just about the rules, it's about building connections and teaching skills. In this episode, we'll explore how responding punitively can really impact children's mental health and attachment. 

Heather  00:29

It’s a tough topic and also a crucial topic. Shifting to a growth focused non punitive approach is not easy, but it's also so rewarding and helps build important skills in us and our kiddos.

Kristina  00:44

We're not saying it's simple. We'll talk about how we're all on this parenting journey together, learning and growing alongside our kids and compassion, both with ourselves and with our children, is key.

Heather  00:57

And sometimes, as parents, we're not on the same page, and that can be really tricky.

Kristina  01:03

Absolutely. We'll talk about how modeling positive behavior makes a huge difference. Kids are little sponges soaking up everything we do.

Heather  01:12

They sure are, and we'll be sharing some personal stories in this episode to highlight the challenges and successes we faced in navigating discipline. 

Kristina  01:21

This discussion is all about how connection and understanding can transform the discipline experience.

Heather  01:29

Let's kick off this journey together and explore how we can create a more positive approach to discipline. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina  01:42

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We'll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name's Kristina Boersma.

Heather  01:55

And I'm Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who've been working with families and children for a good long minute. We're support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today's world. 

Kristina  02:18

We're here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather  02:22

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina  02:24

Let's hit the trails.

Heather  02:30

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

Kristina  02:42

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

Heather  02:50

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network's mission and impact.

Kristina  03:00

Welcome back. We are so glad that you're with us. Today, we are going to begin a conversation about a really big topic. Yes, we're going to start discussing discipline.

Heather  03:16

It's a beast. 

Kristina  03:17

It is a beast. It's a really, really big topic to cover.

Heather  03:21

It sure is, and it's a hot topic to cover. 

Kristina  03:23

We get asked a lot of questions about discipline, because it's tricky. It's something many times that we'll think, well, we just do it. We don't really have to think about it that much. 

Heather  03:36

And it's one of those things that we think, in theory, is so much easier when we don't have children, because we don't realize your heart gets so tied up into all of the outcomes. And it's like your little heart goes walking outside your body when you have this child, and you're so connected to it, and you want to do so right by it, but you maybe have no idea how, all of a sudden, when, before we would see people in situations and think, “Oh, I'll never do that,” or “My child will never behave like that.” Right? And we thought we had all of the strategies, but then, when we're in it, it's so different because your heart is in it differently. 

Kristina  04:16

Yep. You're absolutely right. So we're going to begin this conversation. This is not going to be a one episode kind of conversation. Discipline is a very, very big topic, and it touches us right at our very core. So why are we talking about it? We're talking about it because it is something that everyone nurturing and raising children has to figure out. And determining what your approach to discipline is going to be, what your philosophy of discipline will be, and if you co parent or are raising a child with someone else, getting on the same page. 

Heather  04:56

Getting on the same page is huge. And we hear from people all the time that they are doing it so differently, maybe than their parents parented them, right?

Kristina  05:06

Absolutely. Many of us were raised with a very punitive model of discipline, punishment, obedience. If not at home, certainly in schools, right? We had the little clothes pins that you would move right? We all start on green, but oh, move it to yellow or move it to red. That's actually a punitive approach to this thing we call discipline. So one of the reasons that we think it's so important to talk about is because many of us were raised with a punitive model, and we tend to repeat what we were raised with.

Heather  05:47

Even if we have the best intentions not to, right in those moments of intensity, we default to what feels familiar. And so all of a sudden you can be in these heated moments, and something comes out of your mouth that is not at all your philosophy or what you intended. And it sounds much more like your childhood and how you were parented, but it came out because we default to the familiar.

Kristina  06:15

Yeah. And I'm not passing judgment on any of our parents or our parents. No. They were doing the very best they could with what they knew at the time. We know more now. We have all kinds of research studies that have been done, brain scanning that's been conducted. We know more. 

Heather  06:33

Absolutely. And we have a vastly different world even than when you and I were growing up. Very different pressures. Very different environments. There's just a lot of different dynamics and factors. They're busier than they used to be. There's way more stuff to be involved in.

Kristina  06:49

So some of the things that we know about a punitive model of discipline is that it does impact the mental health of those who've been the recipient of punitive punishment. My husband is a believer in what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I've said to him many times, “Well, actually, what doesn't kill you oftentimes ends you in therapy.”

Heather  07:17

Disregulates your central nervous system.

Kristina  07:19

Absolutely. So understanding what punitive punishment does to the brain as far as how it actually alters the neuro-development of the brain. It results in individuals who are much more hypersensitive to their own mistakes, and less able to see the good, to hear the good, to believe the good, because they have a foundational belief that “I am not enough. I am bad. The world is a scary place, because if I mess up, there's going to be something painful, either physically, psychologically, something painful will happen to me.”

Heather  08:06

There's a connection to that inner voice.

Kristina  08:09

Yes. And living in relationships that are punitive: increase levels of anxiety, increase levels of depression, increase levels of feeling hopeless. It's not good for your brain. It's not good for your overall wellbeing. And it begins to erode the connection and attachment between child and adult, which we've spoken about before, is critical to wellbeing. So we know these things now. And many of us want to do it differently. We want to raise our children differently. We want to engage with children, whether they're our own or others, in a way that allows them to be who they are doesn't expect them to have skills they don't have yet, and is designed to do something other than punish. We believe that with every ounce of our being and yet still, we mess up. A lot. Yeah, if my daughter was here, she'd say, “Yeah, work in progress.  Progress over perfection.”

Heather  09:23

And that's okay, because you also want to model that perfection is not the goal. We're all human. We're all going to mess it up and muck it up. But really it's about what we do in those moments that matters, those moments of when we've goofed it up. Yep, that's the teaching moment. Yeah, that's the other thing to say. Well, and we'll talk about the differences in just a moment here about discipline and punishment, but a punitive model rooted in obedience doesn't ever get to the root of the behavior, what skill we need to work on, what skill we need to teach we're just demanding that a child sit there for a length of time, and you never get to why that might be a challenge, or is it developmentally appropriate,

Kristina  10:17

And in fact, maladaptive behavior, which would be behavior that we are hoping not to see, that occurs when our expectation supersedes the skills of the person that we've placed the expectations on, exactly that's really important.

Heather  10:36

And then being able to recognize that and teach the lagging skill.

Kristina  10:41

And adjust your expectation until the skills have been developed to the point that the expectation can be met. We're the ones, the grown-ups, setting the expectation. So I need to remind myself often that if a child is struggling, part of what they may be struggling with is the fact that they're expected to do something they simply aren't equipped to do yet.

Heather  11:05

And if we can't get to a place where children are able to be successful, those kids get really good at failing.

Kristina  11:13

And they get angry, right? Because it's never good enough. “I'm always in the wrong.” 

Heather  11:23

Well,it goes back to all the inner voice. What are they telling themselves about that fail? 

Kristina  11:28

Yep. So, actually, people who are interacted with in a punitive way, regarding punishment or response to choices and behaviors, it actually increases the maladaptive behavior because they have not been given the skills that they need, and so the behaviors that are maladaptive only increase again, because of their inner voice, who they believe themselves to be.

Heather  11:55

And what we say in our preschool world is “Whatever we shine a light on, we're going to get more of.” So if we're focusing on all of the negative that we don't want to see, and we're calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it's going to go walking around. 

Kristina  12:33

I would love it, Heather, if you would help us understand the difference between discipline and punishment, because I think a lot of us mix the two up, interchange the two. We think they're kind of the same thing and they're vastly different. So help us understand that.

Heather  12:50

Yeah. Let's talk about punishment. The word “punishment” actually comes from a Latin root of the word “punire.” It's a verb. There's no noun form of the word, and what that word means is to chastise, to humiliate, to inflict harm. None of those things sound pleasant at all. None of those things I don't think we would typically relate to how we want to treat a child, or how we want to grow a child, and yet that is where the word punishment stems from, to chastise, inflict harm and to penalize. 

Kristina  13:33

You know, even as you say that, my whole heart gets heavy and sad.

Heather  13:38

Absolutely. They're yucky terms. I guess as we look at children, we always want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And those words don't make me think growth in any way. They just have this yuck associated.

Kristina  13:55

And I thought that's what we all want, right? To grow our children into the best version of themselves.

Heather  14:01

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean we necessarily know how to do that, but I agree. I think all parents truly want what's best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that's punishment - chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have “discipline,” which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after. And we talk all the time about how discipline is really how you live. It truly is modeling and teaching and having those kids be able to follow the example of and you can just feel the weight in. Difference of the intention behind those two words and where they come from. Chastise, inflict harm, penalize, model, teach, lead, grow. Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time. Yep, not that I always get there, because, you know, we can default back to some things that we don't love, and that's just a part of parenting and growing ourselves honestly. And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child's behavior for only so long, because it's really reliant on power. And who holds the power and who wields the power. So when kids are little, we can pick them up and we can move their bodies, and we can get them where we need them to go, even if they are not wanting them. We can overpower them, right? We can make that happen. But my kids now, at the age that they are, like, that's a very short term thing that can happen. All of my children are taller than I am at this point. The reality is they're way more likely to carry me around than I can carry any of them around. They're just younger and stronger and bigger. And so if we are trying to overpower people, it's a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong. I have a twenty year old. I mean, we're not disciplining him in the same way, but he lives in our home. We're actively still guiding and teaching, and the stakes are high. He's making important life decisions, and so discipline kind of goes on and on and on and on forever, and punishment, on the other hand, is very short lived, because it involves that power and control in whoever holds it is wielding that power. And then the other thing that we say a lot is, “Whoever is most committed to an outcome in this situation has the least amount of power.”

Kristina  17:23

Oh, I want you to say that again, because it's something that we forget often.

Heather  17:28

The person most committed to an outcome has the least amount of power, meaning you're kind of handing that power over to someone else because you are so committed and focused on that outcome. 

Kristina  17:43

And what we do in order to be successful in achieving the outcome we desire is we often tend to coerce, maybe threaten, dangle a carrot out in front if you do this, then I'll, you know, we can go get bribery. We call those bribes. We do those things which doesn't make anybody feel good. And when you're in that position, at least for me, I often think, “Oh, nuts. She owns me right now.” She owns me instead of letting go of the outcome and remaining in charge. 

Heather  18:23

Yes, absolutely. Also, through a punitive model, we actually unintentionally teach kids some things like how to be better liars. We just get sneaky. How to get way sneakier, how to be better at kind of being bad, the things that we don't want to see. We kind of train them in how to do those things right? Better to not get in trouble, right? Does that make sense? 

Kristina  18:52

Yeah.Because childhood is messy, right? They make mistakes. 

Heather  18:57

We all do. And they always default to this, “Oh, I'm gonna be in trouble. I'm gonna get so much trouble. I'm gonna get so much trouble.” Kids say all the time. I've heard so many teenagers say this in my home, “My parents are going to kill me.” And I always say to them, “No way. Your parents are not going to kill you. Your parents love you more than anybody in this world. And you need to not think that way. You need to flip it and reframe it to ‘I need to call my parents.’ And that's a big shift for kids. And that, for my husband and I was one of the things that we needed to agree on, because that takes that future outlook of, again, what's our foundation? What's our goal? What are we committed to? Where are we heading? And I always wanted our children to think, “I need to call my mom. I need to call my dad.” Rather than “I'm going to be in so much trouble. They're going to kill me.” Because kids say that kind of stuff all the time. And so we had to get on board together with that thought process, because not all people look out that far, right? And pre plan right? And we say all the time “being proactive right is way more powerful than being reactive.” Yeah, it truly is all about teaching and guiding. It's about how we treat other people. It's about the standard for how we treat people in our home. It's how we respond in frustration. How we respond in anger. Because those kids are always watching us, and they're sponges. They're going to absorb. I remember seeing a visual. It's a dated visual because it has some kind of stereotypical roles that aren't true in today's world, but it's kind of like a comic strip, but it's not funny. And it's a dad coming home and kind of having a bad day. And it shows like yelling at this mom who's in the home. And then it shows the mom going into another room and then yelling at the child. And then it shows the child going into a different room and yelling at the younger sibling. And that's so true, how that goes. And if we can keep that picture in our mind of what we do, they soak in and then they pass on. So it is about all of that guiding. It's about teaching. It's about do we embrace a growth mindset? Is this a safe place to fail? Yes, we talk about failing forward. And is this a safe place to say, “I didn't do that well?” Well, it becomes that place when we say “I messed that up.” Right? “I need a do over.” Those are the types of things that then you hear coming out of the child's mouth.

Kristina  21:58

Yeah. And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There's a lot of that work to say, “Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?” And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable, and then we can pour into the child prior to those times occurring. We can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful, and we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful. But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it's going to be better because maybe you got cross, or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that that's going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful, yes, because we need to remember children do well when they can no child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that's fun for them. It's not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it's a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to for their survival attached to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. 

Heather  23:47

And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important, and when we're utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there's a growth mindset and that they can get there yet is a big word. We used to say that all the time, and like, yeah, “You're not there yet, but you're getting there. It's coming. You're growing, right? And you'll be there.” And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich. It's the sign in my garage: “This house isn't perfectly put together, but our struggles become our triumphs. And that it's a safe place to struggle and triumph.”

Kristina  24:38

Well, and when you mentioned wanting our children to grow feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be absolutely that's a long view. And it begins when they are very young.

Heather  24:54

And they're bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child's play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don't relish in the small stuff when they're little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren't going to, when they're big, trust us with the big stuff, right? And there will be big stuff, right?

Kristina  25:22

And that's on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, we're on the same team, right? We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don't have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team, absolutely, better or worse, we are in it together. And that's a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward

Heather  26:12

I couldn't have been more than four years old and my brother were nineteen months apart, so he was maybe six-ish or close to six. I don't even know which one of us did this. This is in this is a famous story in my family. We lived in a ranch house. We had this sliding glass door in our living room that had a screen on it. And it went out to the patio, and then beyond the patio there was a swimming pool. And so it was kind of the hub all summer long -  in and out, in and out, in and out. And we used to lean on that screen door. We were told numerous times not to do it. But I don't know what it was about it that felt so good. And so we did lean against this and our television was in there. So we'd just kind of be watching “Scooby Doo” like leaning against the screen door. Well, one day, that screen broke. And I do not remember to this day if it was me or my brother. All I remember is we both had really big eyes when it happened. And we immediately laid on the floor with our chin in our palms, like on our bellies, just staring at the TV, and we wouldn't break from it. And I remember it was a Friday, because my mom was cleaning the house and Friday was cleaning house day, okay? And we were laying on our bellies on the floor, looking up at the TV. You know, our chins in our hands, and from our - what is this called? Thank you. Peripheral vision. We see our mother come down the hall and walk through and you know, it's that moment where you're like, don't breathe, don't move, don't make eye contact. Don't make eye contact. And she stops, and we're like, “oh no, oh no.” And she backs up, and we're not making eye contact, but you can see in your peripheral vision, she is looking at that screen door. And we're like, oh no, oh no, oh no. And she says, “Kids.” And we look very sheepishly with terror, and she says, “What happened to the screen door?” And we're like, “We don't know. I don't know.” And she's like, “You don't know?” 

Kristina  28:28

“No. No idea.”

Heather  28:31

“David, did you do that?” “No.” “Heather, did you do that?” “No. No, he didn't mom. No, she didn't mom. We told you I don't know who did it.” We stuck up for each other so hard to this day, we're like, who broke the screen door? We don't remember, but neither one of us did it. And my mom looked at us both and said, “Hmm, that must have been one damn big fly.” And walked away. And we were like, ‘It was a really big fly. Did we just get away with that?” I'm sure we didn't. Like we knew there was more to come. We knew my mother could look at us, and she's a wonderful mother, and she's also a powerhouse. So when you talk about leading by example, where do I get some of my chutzpah?

Kristina  29:19

Oh, no question, it's Diane, right? Your mother, yeah, right.

Heather  29:24

But we also knew, like, when we were shot a certain look, oh, you had stepped in it. You had stepped in at large, and you were gonna be circled back to, maybe not in that moment, but it's coming back. At some point. 

Kristina  29:39

It's coming around. 

Heather  29:40

So there's the screen door and the damn big fly to this day. I have no idea who did it.

Kristina  29:47

But even as you tell that story, I can feel in my gut, oh yeah, that fear. Nobody make eye don't make eye contact.

Heather  29:53

No, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody. Admit it.

Kristina  29:57

Maybe this will just go away. Maybe it'll just go away.

Heather  30:02

And my parents, both great examples. Wonderful people. But we all have these moments in our homes that take us by surprise. Because kids,  they're brilliant and they're challenging, and they have great ideas, and they have power in numbers sometimes. And we think, how do they come up with this stuff? And they catch us by surprise. And what are we going to do in those moments? 

Kristina  30:33

So the punitive model is that, you know, “Do it, or else. I'll give you something to cry about.” And it is not helpful for growing healthy children, growing them into healthy adults. And in fact, it sets us up to think that kind of behavior is normal. You can choose to do it differently. It takes intentionality. It takes support from a co-parent or your village, because it can be counter cultural, especially to the older generations, where this type of model of discipline and really growing skills in children can look a little soft.

Heather  31:16

It can look soft, but it's a lot of work. When you really understand what's happening, it's a lot of work.

Kristina  31:27

My husband and I will say this, and we've actually said this to Grace before, which I'm not proud of, but things like, she'll do something, or she'll respond in a way, she'll behave in a manner that is not what we were hoping for. And my husband, or I will say, “If we had done that when we were young, wowza. There would have been a major punishment.” And I don't know what we're trying to communicate in the moment. I think we're just trying to reconcile the fact that we're doing it differently. We don't need to say that to the child. And sometimes we're surprised when, even though we want to do it differently, the old ways come out. I will never, never forget. Okay, so I know I've shared with you before that my daughter, Grace, who is amazing, also leaves kind of pieces of herself wherever she goes. She's constantly losing things. Because, even as a toddler, when she was done playing with something, she would literally kind of throw it behind her, like, that's in my past. I'm moving forward. So she lost her favorite toys all the time. And she loved the little like, figurines, yes. Oh, so she went through a real Winnie the Pooh phase. So she had little Pooh Bear and a little Rabbit and a little Piglet and a little Eeyore and Tigger. And one was certainly not enough, because they were always lost. So my husband, because he does things in big ways, we ended up with, I think, like 17 Rabbits and maybe 32 Poohs and all these figurines. I mean, all of these figurines. And at one point, Grace had, I had helped her, but we had set them all up on the table just to see the minions of Pooh figurines that we had in our home at that point. And they were all a little bit different. And so she had her favorites. And who are we going to play with today? Well, Vince had come home. And you know, when we're in a surly mood, our children don't become really compliant. They become a little more surly. So Vince came home, there was an exchange, and Grace chucked one of her Pooh figurines. Just chucked it. She was good at that. She liked to throw things when she was upset. I do too, honestly. So anyway, she chucks the Pooh Bear, and the response from Vince is, “You do not throw things like that in the house.” And she threw another one. And then he's like, “That's mine.” And he took those two figures that she had thrown. So she threw another one. He said, “That's mine too. Keep going.” And my little. I mean, she was, what, maybe two and a half, three. She took those arms and she cleared the whole table of all of the Pooh figures. They're all gone. 

Heather  34:15

You know he's gathering them. 

Kristina  34:17

Oh, I know. I said to him at that point again, my mother would not be approve of this language, but I said, “You do not get in a pissing match with a two year old. That's ridiculous. She's not able to control herself. She doesn't have the skills to manage her level of dysregulation. She needs to co regulate with us. So when we meet her dysregulation with our dysregulation, holy moly, and all that energy goes up. And everything, you know, kind of devolves into this, and they match each other.

Heather  34:54

And it's like you threw a line and somebody got hooked. And then there's this wild reeling and the fishes trying to, you know, somebody's being the fish, and somebody's winding them in.

Kristina  35:07

Oh man. So sometimes we show up in ways that are not what we were hoping. And so how do you reel that back? How do you apologize to your child when you model or behave in a way that's not what you were hoping for? And now what you want to teach, right? We have a sign in our house that says, “May I have a do over please?” So we did a lot of do overs. We still do if there's a tone that is not something we would hope for, it's like, “Hey, try that again. Let's take a breath and try that againHas to be done in a loving way. Because let me tell you, if your pre teen gives you sass and you say, “Try it again,” and they come back with sass and you say, “Try it again. Try it again.” 

Heather  35:56

There's energy there.

Kristina  35:57

That's not getting you where you want to go, but allowing people to make mistakes, because we are human, after all, and to try it again is a really lovely, compassionate way to help kids grow skills. The first step really is determining “What's my philosophy? What's my approach? What am I hoping to accomplish?” And then am I able to find a compromise so that I have a common understanding. If I'm fortunate enough to co-parent with somebody else, or for the people who are in my village, because both of us had partners where we were not on the same page?

Heather  36:38

Yes, I think that's important to talk about, because I don't think it's easy for our husbands to be married to clinical social workers. First off, because we were trained in human behavior, we're trained in child development, and it's not easy being married to us, because we have opinions on things. And then we have this philosophical knowledge and research and we know things. And it can feel sometimes like we're preachy to our husbands. I'm sure it feels that way. And I like to say to my husband, “But you have all of these skills that I couldn't possess.” Like, yes, it's kind of a challenge that my area of study and education and knowledge also really applies in our home with the children. My husband loves to boat, and I get wildly seasick unless we're moving fast on a boat. If we stop and there's rollers, it's terrible. I am always vomiting. And I am not good on docks. You should see me walk on a dock. My children are like, “Are you impaired in some sort of significant way?” Yes, but I think what it is maybe a height thing, or it's like a depth perception. And so I'll say to my husband, “Watch me walk on this dock, because it's kind of like how we had to figure out our parenting journey.” And he'll come alongside me and be like, ‘You look so ridiculous I can't not help you.” And I'm like, “Amen. I felt the same way in our home.” You know, and that's not a jad. It's not a jab. But you have to get to that place where you can be like,”We're all not good at everything.”

Kristina  38:29

It's not a jab. It's a realization, though, yes.

Heather  38:33

And so I feel like there needs to be a video of me walking on a dock, because even I'm aware of how awkward and terrible it looks but I can't help it, it's just how I am. And we have a boat that's at a marina all summer, so I look dumb a lot. The kids are like, “Oh, just go past mom, because it's gonna take her like, seven minutes to get down this twelve foot stretch.” So and even that, in that example, there's great modeling for your children. It's like, “Yeah, I'm not good at this. In fact, I like, legit suck at this. And I don't know why, but there is some sort of fear kind of around it, or like, I feel like I'm not well in my body, in that space, and to let my kids see that and see me not be good at it, you know, like their dad could cartwheel down the dock and their hands sprang off of it and back flip on it, and then I'm like, one foot in front of the other, and that's kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It's just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water, and we had to work it out, and it required a lot of talking and a. Lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn't gain our philosophies overnight, and we don't undo them overnight. Very good point and to be able to tap one another in. I distinctly remember, as we were working through this process, being in church, my husband thinks it's a skill that I have, that we have five people in our family, me being one, but that I can he's like, how are your arms long enough to touch all of us when we're sitting all in a line in church? But I don't know. I just like to because I know connection and touch is so important, at least to my children and to my husband as well, it brings calm, yeah. And so sitting in church isn't always the easiest thing to do as a family with small children. And I think Luke was on the very end, and then it was Zack, and then it was my husband myself, and Ava was on the other side of me, and I could sense and see that there was something happening between our oldest Zack, who was probably eight or nine at the time, and Travis, because they are quite alike in some ways, and they posture, and when one of them begins, it's kind of like Grace and Vince with the Pooh Bears, like the other one responds. And so I could sense that there was this tension. I could sense that there was this posturing happening. And you're in church. It's quiet. You're on display. That doesn't bother me as much, but I know it bothers my husband, because he feels like he has an audience. And so I just leaned over and said to him, “Put your hand on his leg.” Meaning, put your hand on Zack's leg, because he's trying not to use words, but yet he's trying to discipline in some way, and I wasn't sure what had transpired. And he looks at me like, “Whatever.” But he puts his hand on Zack's leg and kind of pats it gently, and it leaves it there. And Zack leaned into him, lay his head on his shoulder. And then my husband looked at me like, “I don't like you. Why do you know this?” Because it was so contrary to what felt natural to him. Because I think what he probably wanted to do was say, “Knock it off.” And I don't even know what was happening, but just that touch and that connection softened everything. But it's not easy being our husbands, probably for lots of reasons.

Kristina  42:46

But there are some perks that go along.

Heather  42:50

True. But I think that can be tricky. And I think it can be tricky in any relationship where you maybe don't agree on those philosophies. 

Kristina  43:00

And as I hear you talk about that story with Travis and Zack, I think to myself, the act of Travis putting his hand on Zack's leg was an act of saying, “We are not opposed. We are together.”

Heather  43:16

“Yeah. And I belong to you. You belong to me.”

Kristina  43:19

And, wow, what a really powerful.

Heather  43:23

Which is who I am all day long. And my husband would be like, “But is that gonna keep them from dot, dot, dot?” And the answer is “Yes, much more than fear or shame, actually.”

Kristina  43:38

We are really looking forward to continuing this conversation about discipline. Thank you so much for joining us for gear up adventures in parenthood. I'm Kristina

Heather  43:54

And I'm Heather. And we're so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina  43:58

Until next time see you on the trails. The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather  44:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina  44:24

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather  44:36

The ODC Network's vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.