Sleep And Bedtime Routines

In this episode, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina dive into the all-too-common challenge of getting children to sleep and why establishing a consistent bedtime routine is key to better rest for everyone. Drawing from their personal experiences as moms, they share stories of their children's sleep struggles—Kristina recounting her daughter's battle with chronic ear infections and the harmful advice she received, and Heather reflecting on how sleep deprivation affects both kids and parents alike.

Together, they explore the crucial role of sleep in brain development, the impact of poor sleep on family dynamics, and share practical, evidence-based strategies for improving your child’s sleep. From creating a calming nighttime environment to limiting screen time before bed and using soothing sleep cues like music, Heather and Kristina offer helpful tips that can lead to better sleep for the whole family.

Co-parenting, persistence, and patience are all part of the equation. Tune in for expert advice, real-world tips, and the reassurance that you’re not alone in the nightly struggle for sleep!

Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood is recorded and edited by Dave Purnell and produced by Jen Plante Johnson for the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan.

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved go to: www.odcnetwork.org.

Transcript

Heather  00:00

Today, we're talking about one of the biggest struggles parents face: sleep and bedtime. 

Kristina  00:06

Oh, we've been working with families for years, and we know just how tricky sleep can be for both kids and parents. Seriously, sleep was brutal for us when Grace was young. 

Heather  00:18

Oh, I remember that. And let's be real, bedtime is often the time of day when kids turn into these little philosophers. They pull out all the stops and ask all the questions.

Kristina  00:32

Totally. It's like the day is winding down. They're tired, and suddenly they're these really deep thinkers contemplating the mysteries of life.

Heather  00:41

And that's also when the bedtime struggles begin. So we're going to share some tips on how to create a consistent bedtime routine that can help kids wind down and get the sleep they need. 

Kristina  00:52

Sleep is so important, and yet it's one of those things that doesn't come naturally to all kids. So we'll talk about our personal experiences with sleep struggles, share some practical strategies and give some ideas that will make bedtime a little easier.

Heather  01:09

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina  01:12

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We'll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

Heather  01:26

And I'm Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who've been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We're support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan; and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today's world.

Kristina  01:48

We're here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

Heather  01:54

Are you ready? 

Kristina and Heather

Let's hit the trails. 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

Kristina  02:13

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

Heather  02:21

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network's mission and impact. Welcome back. We're so glad that you're here. Grab a hot cup of coffee, tea. Join us. We're going to talk about sleep. We want you to be awake.

Kristina  02:43

I'm so glad we're talking about sleep today, because it is incredibly important. And people ask us about sleep all the time. It is something that parents really struggle with, how to help their child sleep, how to make sure the household is getting enough sleep. And-

Heather  03:03

And it may be something you struggle with yourself, because what do we say all the time? Sleep is a skill, and oftentimes people haven't been taught how to sleep well.

Kristina  03:13

Right. Now, that being said, there are some people that are just naturally better sleepers than others. 

Heather  03:21

This is my son, Luke, right? Luke is a sleeper. My grandmother had six children. If I could impress her, it was quite a feat. I remember going to her home with a sweet little blanket that was soft, that Luke loved. And he would come and say, “I'm tired, Mommy, I'm ready for a nap.” And I would lay the blanket down in her formal living room, where nobody else was going to be, and she had a little sliding door that came out of the wall. And he would lay his sweet little head on that blanket and go to sleep. And my grandma would look at him and say, “Hmm, never seen that before.” That was nothing I had done. There was no great skill. It's just who Luke is, right? When he's ready to sleep, he's gonna lay down and sleep, and he needed that sleep. He's a smart boy with a big brain, and he's six foot two at this point. He was growing, right?

Kristina  04:17

And if you're fortunate enough to have a kiddo who is just naturally a good sleeper, put that in your little gratitude journal, because not all of us have that kid, right? 

Heather  04:28

Yeah, it’s not a feather in your cap. Probably came into the world that way. 

Kristina  04:31

Just really appreciate it, right? You know, my daughter was a horrible sleeper from the time she was born, she was-

Heather  04:39

Absolutely, I remember these later phone calls, these early morning phone calls, right? Your dark, dark circles under your eyes.

Kristina  04:45

Yes. And in fact, I ended up keeping a calendar for several years, where I would mark on the calendar each day the times that she was awake.

Heather

And I remember the celebrations if she stretched out a sleep.

Kristina

If she could get more than forty-five minutes. You know how I'd heard these things about parents of newborns and how there's all this time while they're napping, and my child had none of that time because she didn't nap. It ended up that she had chronic ear infections, which made her extremely uncomfortable, and so she wasn't able to sleep, but I didn't know that at the time. I learned that later.

Heather

And you got lots of really bad advice. 

Kristina

I got lots of advice that made me feel like a really terrible parent. Yeah, already, from the beginning…

Heather

She was “manipulating you.”

Kristina

I had people tell me that my three month old was manipulating me. 

Heather  05:42

You needed to “let her cry it out.”

Kristina

Yep, exactly. 

Heather

And I remember you calling and saying, “Do you think I need to do that? And me saying, “No!” Right? Like she's communicating a need. We don't know what it is, but eventually you got it figured out.

Kristina  05:58

Yeah, eventually we got it figured out, and we got those tubes, and that helped tremendously. But even so, she still struggles getting to sleep and staying asleep. And so teaching my daughter how to sleep was definitely a process, and was not short. It went on. It had some hang time as she learned to become a better sleeper and built that skill, but I would worry that whole time, right? She's not getting enough sleep. Then I wasn't getting enough sleep. So I was-

Heather  06:32

And the more sleep deprived you became, the more worried for her developing brain you became. 

Kristina  06:37

Absolutely. I'm thinking sleep is critical in brain development, and my child's not sleeping, so I would weep and wail sometimes, and I was beside myself because my child wasn't getting enough. 

Heather  06:51

Part of the reason you were beside yourself is because even as adults at night, when we sleep, we know that our brain cleanses itself. It gets rid of the junk. It processes kind of like the “garbage,” and it gets it out of us. And that's why sometimes our dreams can be super wonky, but you weren't having that process happen. There's also another stress hormone called cortisol, which is supposed to be lower, right,  we're heading into sleep, and then those hormone levels change. Well, you weren't having a normal rest process.  So your cortisol levels were wonky. Your brain wasn't having these long stretches and this opportunity to cleanse the garbage out. So your “garbage” - 

Kristina  07:41

Was accumulating. For sure. And I wasn't getting it. She wasn't getting it. We were in trouble.

Heather  07:47

And it feels then everything feels more stressful. Everything feels more frustrating because we don't have our normal tolerance.

Kristina  07:56

Yep. So I would add up her time, and I would think to myself, “This is not sufficient. This is not enough. So what can we do?” So very early on, my family, and I recommend this to parents a lot when they come and talk to us, I ask them to describe what that process is in moving their child towards sleep. I like to call it “transitioning towards sleep.” 

Heather

Some family call it “the witching hour.” 

Kristina

Yes, well, it is “the witching hour.” Absolutely. Yep, that is a real thing. You are not alone. We have “the witching hour” in our home too. But when I talk to parents and people, you know, raising and nurturing children about what that time, the hour, hour and a half before bed, looks like, you hear a lot of different things. One of the things that I hear more frequently than I did, you know, two decades ago was that early evening time was the only time the children were going to see one of the parents because of work schedules, right? They were off to work before the children got up. They were returning home during the time that I would recommend they begin transitioning to sleep. 

Heather  09:14

Yep, there's also another culprit here, right? There's these smartphones that didn't used to exist, which is a whole other thing for parents to manage, right? Because they're always connected to work. And there's this whole other thing that we have kids on screens, which impacts, we know, sleep and brain stimulation as well.

Kristina  09:37

Absolutely. So there's actually a lot to think about when you're trying to set up what is the routine going to look like as we shepherd our child to sleep? And how long is that going to take, and the intentionality behind it.

Heather  09:55

And what we know we've talked a bit in other episodes about attachment. Bedtime - there are -  the research shows that there are more significant times in the day that are significant to the child for attachment and connection and “ding, ding, ding,” if bedtime isn't one of the times.

Kristina  10:16

It sure is. So for those families who have these busy days, and perhaps a parent only gets to see the child during this time that is transitioning to sleep, you need to figure out what you're going to do with that. That was true for my family. My husband, you know, traveled a lot for work. He works very long hours. And oftentimes, if he was in the country and in town, he could come home for a period of time, but it really was like in that six thirty/seveno'clock kind of time range. And that's when, for our daughter, we needed to start that transition to sleep. But boy, did he like to tickle her.

Heather  10:56

Oh, and dad's like to bring the energy. I don't know if you've ever been like the community pool, right? And it's transitioning in the late afternoon hour from like, the moms have all been there and they're with the kids, and there's babies on hips, and kids are just playing, and you hear squeals of delight, and then all of a sudden, around like, four thirty, children are flying through the air. And it's like, “Oh, the dads, the dads have arrived.” It’s the same thing oftentimes. And if you're getting home from work, if it's that later hour, all of a sudden the kids are flying through the air in the home, right?

Kristina  11:32

Absolutely. Or it's a great time for a wrestling match. 

Heather

Or some chocolate. 

Kristina

Oh, that was the other thing: Chocolate every night with daddy on the couch. Yep. So while those may be lovely things and nice times of attachment-

Heather  11:48

They’re not serving us in the best ways.

Kristina  11:51

Not at that time. No. Because what those activities do is they energize your child and well - 

Heather  12:00

And they mirror neuron, right? Kids mirror neuron. 

Kristina

Say more about that.

Heather

I remember watching my husband come home and my Zack, who was - He's always gonna be our oldest guys. He's our oldest. And he would sit and kind of like, he would like do this posturing with his body, knowing, like, “My dad is home and he's gonna throw me up in the air. And we're gonna do, I don't know, man, stuff.” What do you do with a baby? I don't know. But like, he sensed that energy was coming and that it was vastly different than my energy. And so I think Grace knew when Vince would come home, he was all like, so excited to see her - 

Kristina  12:49

Right? This is my precious little time. And we have fun doing these things together, you know? 

Heather

And so the energy goes up.

Kristina

What was a beautiful thing is he learned, and I didn't have to say anything about it. He's an amazing dad, but he picked up on that, that escalating her activity and having her get all jazzed up before bed wasn't helpful. And he began something that we referred to as “the tour.” He would come home from work, and he would pick up Grace. And he would hold her facing outward. And he would bounce and walk her around the house, very slowly and quietly, say things to her like, “Oh, that's pink. It looks really soft. Let's touch it” and then have her touch it. And move to another space, and, “Oh yes. You see that light.” And he instinctually began doing this transition to sleep. 

Heather

That's darling.

Kristina

Isn't it? It was wonderful. And it was a time that I could brush my teeth finally and maybe take a shower. It was so great, but – 

Heather

We’re glad you got to brush your teeth. 

Kristina

Well, they were days, let me tell you what, that I don't think it happened, because that's just the reality.

Heather

Let’s not go back to those days.

Kristina

It was a terrible time. So anyway, he instinctually knew that she needed help transitioning into sleep. So when I say to parents, “Let's talk about what your routine is before bed,” lots of times it's, “Well, you know, we have dinner, and then my kids watch a show, and then it's bath time, and then after bath time, they watch one more show, and then it's books and bed.”

Heather  14:34

Let's talk about the difference in shows. Well, it's energy level. There's a difference between energy levels. So there's a difference between watching, what do kids watch? Bluey. What do kids watch these days? I'm not familiar with the shows, but the concept is, if it's fast and it's whirling and it’s lights and it’s sounds, they match that energy. Versus, if it's like sing-songy and lullaby-ish, you know? Like, I remember we had an evening CD that would play that was just more mellow and quiet and sounded like lullabies versus the music that we would play if we're gonna have a five minute quick cleanup in the house, right? Vastly different energy. We wanna move, right? But kids pick up on those subtle differences. And so if you're watching a show that's zooozoooozozoozoo bing, bang, boom. All this fastness. What do I even say? I don't know, quickness, all of this energy, their energy goes up.

Kristina  15:52

Yep, absolutely. So consider the hour to hour and a half before you're hoping to put your child to bed, and think about how you are structuring that time. What is the light level? What is the noise level? How much time is your child on the screen? And how during that time are you shepherding them toward rest? So we developed this routine with Grace, involved the tour when she was younger, and then as she got older, lots of parents like to give baths at night. And you need to assess whether that's the best time to bathe your child. For us, baths energized Grace. It was not helpful in transitioning her to sleep. So those baths would have to come earlier in the day. 

Heather  16:45

For our family, we bathed at night. It was the sweet little lavender scent soap, right? I can bring some calm and soothe. 

Kristina

Oh, girl. We tried the soap. This was just not happening.

Heather

Well, and there's a difference in kids, right? I have three, and that's another thing. Like you had one. How do you do it? How do you do your bedtime routine when you're staggering kids? That's another thing to think about.

Kristina  17:08

So we very intentionally established some sleep signals. Like you, you played a CD at night. We chose a CD that we could live with for the rest of forever. And we played the same CD every night as soon as we were done reading books. So there would be this softening of the family. The softening of the lights. The quieting of the voices. The turning down the energy level. And we would go upstairs, prepare her in her pajamas, brush teeth, move into her bedroom, where we had a rocking chair, and the rocking chair is where we'd read books every night. Reading those books while she rocked was such a tender time.

Heather

And it's great connection. 

Kristina

Great connection time when the books were done and we read three, partly because I'm pretty anal retentive, and partly because I needed a boundary on it.

Heather

And you were exhausted-

Kristina

And I was exhausted. And I needed to get my own downtime. After those books were done, we would turn on the CD. I would swing her Lovey over my shoulder, and that became her signal to put her head down on my shoulder, and it was time to move toward her bed. So I also had a rule of three for the CD. I would rock her through three songs, and then she would be put into her crib, and that was the pattern we established. 

Kristina 

Now, I know this is a controversial thing for really young children of the whole, you know, “cry it out” kind of thing. We didn't do that with Grace, although I tried, because I was desperate at times, you know, with my hand, like stuck at a weird angle through the crib railing, to try to keep the passy in her mouth, to try to get her to fall asleep without her actually seeing me. And, you know, throwing my back out in the process, and doing all of those things to try to help her sleep.

Heather  19:18

And we think about connection as so important to them, right? And if we can just sometimes pause and say, “Why does this behavior make sense?” We are asking these little people to go this huge stretch of time without us, without any encouragement. And it's the darkest time of the twenty-four hour period, right? So if you can think of it that way, it allowed me, even when tired, to have more empathy. Of course they want to connect. Of course they might need a little reassurance, a little rub on the back. “You're okay. I'm here. It's time to go night night.” Those types of things I think are normal. Doesn't mean they're easy when we're so tired.

Kristina  20:07

Yes, absolutely. 

Heather  20:13

And if you have one, two, three-and they're like setting off, like they're detonating, like little bombs in the house, it's like, “Oh, well, which mine field do we run to now? You know it can have some hang time when that all is happening. And sometimes you can get to the point where you think “We're never going to sleep again, right? Like it's just not going to happen. We're done sleeping-“ 

Kristina  20:33

Or we're never going to sleep again without me hollering and being the person I don't want to be to get my kids to stay in their rooms. I mean, we've heard from parents who literally lock their children in their rooms. 

Heather 

Please don't do that. 

Kristina

No, please don't do that. That's a very unsafe thing to do. But they're at that point, right? Not bad people. Desperate people. Yes. So I know we're talking about this in infancy, but as your child ages - First of all, it's never too late to start a new routine for bedtime. Never too late. And once you do that has a lasting impact. 

Heather

And it takes time.

Kristina

Yes, they begin to learn how to diminish their energy as they move towards sleep, because it's been their pattern from the time you started this routine so that becomes to feel normal to them. I'm not going to choose to engage in these activities that rev me all up. I know that the screens are turned off an hour before I go to bed. I know that the music I'm going to listen to is going to be more calming. And it ushers in a much more peaceful time. Doesn't mean there won't be bombs going off sometimes.

Heather  21:47

But it takes time. Like once a parent decides to impose this new routine, whether or not you recognize it or not, the child is used to what they're used to. So how long do you think it takes? Like, how much repetition before they begin?

Kristina  22:05

Well, we've said for years, if you haven't tried something for three weeks, you haven't really tried it. Because parents will say, “I tried it once and it didn't work. That doesn't work for us. The breathing doesn't work. That this doesn't work. Nothing works.” I think, “Well, your child's adjusting. And what we know about when we change what we do, it changes what the child does. It takes them a while to be able to adjust to that, to recognize, “Oh, it's not going back to the way it was. I need to learn a new way of doing this.” And so we expect things to get worse before they get better. That's something we've said in therapy.

Heather  22:43

We talk about the ship a lot, right? So you're out to sea. You're on course. You step away for a minute. You look there's a sailboat ahead of you. And, all of a sudden, you pull that wheel to miss that sailboat. You're not immediately back on course. You veer off a minute and then you get back on. But it takes a bit when you get off course to make your way safely back. And you have to allow for that tide, right? You have to allow for that course correction. Sometimes that takes longer than we would like, because we've made up in our minds “We're going to deal with this. We're going to start anew,” right?” 

Kristina  23:22

Yep. And then you need to have the persistence to be able to do it. If you are fortunate enough to co parent, and you can look somebody else in the eye and be like, “We're doing this. It's really hard-“

Heather  23:32

And when I want to give up, you have to hold me accountable. 

Kristina  23:37

Yep. If, again, if you are fortunate enough to co parent and your lives allow, it's a lovely thing to either put children to bed together or divide and conquer, but switch off. Often we'll have parents come and say, “Well, my wife is the only one that can put the child to bed,” or “My partner is the only one, because when I try, they just scream for the other parent.” And it's like, “Well, how often do you do that?” Well, you know, whenever, once a month, my, you know, husband has XYZ, and I have to put the kids to bed. It's like, “Well, no wonder your child is screaming. It's not that they don't love you. It's that it's not their routine.” So if you can switch off, flip, flop, back and forth, it allows for some of that freedom. I mean, let me tell you what: in the beginning, it can feel really darling that, “Oh, my daughter just wants me to be the one to rock her to sleep.” But that loses its darling nature fairly quickly. You want somebody else to be able to put the child down. So that transitioning to sleep and thinking about shepherding your child toward rest, reminding them as you put them down that they are loved no matter what, that you are so grateful to be their parent that you can hardly believe that you're fortunate enough to have them in your family. Okay? And to let their little heads hit the pillow with those thoughts dancing in their mind is beautiful. 

Heather  25:08

Okay, so one thing that I recall specifically happening that tried my patience, and I have way less when I'm tired and it's the end of the day and I've been with these beautiful little darlings all day long. But you go to put them to bed, and we're at the point where we all get them down, and then all of a sudden, it's like, “Mommy. Mommy.” No, I don't think I hear anything. “Mommy!” Darn it, I hear something. So I go, “Yes?”, “Why do crackers have lines in them?” “Honey, it's bedtime,” “I know, but I was just wondering.” Like, all the mysteries of life come out at this time. And one of my personal favorites is when they're like, “Why do things die?” And it's not like, we can just say, “I don't know let’s ask Ritz tomorrow. How do you make your crackers?”

Kristina  26:09

They become these little philosophers that emerge in the night time and really, what they're looking for is connection. It’s not about needing one more drink. We can't possibly give them enough water at night. It's not that they need to do one more thing. 

Heather  26:27

It's really seeking that connection. And so I remember this distinctly being like, “Man, they really pull out all of the punches to just get you back in there.” “I'm too hot.” “I'm too cold,” right? “I don't like these socks.” It's all the things , right? And they really just want us back in there. My daughter used to have identical blankets because she was my third and I was skilled. By the time I got to her, I was like, “Oh, you buy whatever is their favorite blanket. You have more than one, because, Heaven forbid you lose that blanket.” 

Kristina

Well, and hey have to go in the wash at some point, right?

Heather

Exactly. Well, hers had, and she had named them Scruffs and Fluffs. And so it became the thing of one was softer than the other. “Mommy, this is Scruffs. I don't want Scruffs. I want Fluffs.” So, and at this point, you just, I want to open the door and scream, not in her bedroom. I want to go outside and scream because I'm tired. And so what I did and started doing, from a pretty young age, with my oldest, and then my other kids had just heard it from being in proximity , as we had “mom and dad time,” at our house. We had “mom and dad time.” And what we said to our kids, and this goes back to your foundations, right? Like this is something mom and dad need to take time to be together uninterrupted and enjoy one another's company, and to relax together, because that keeps our relationship strong. And that was something that we set up as one of our foundations to model for our children. We both come from divorced homes. It was fine. We're both fine. But we wanted to model that intentionally for our kids: we are going to make time for one another. And so we would be like, “You know, it's mom and dad time. You're on, mom and dad time. I'm gonna give you one more hug and one more kiss. You can dream about crackers. We can solve that mystery tomorrow. Here's your water bottle. Here's Fluffs. Here's Scruffs. You got everything you need.” And then I would say to them, “You do your deep breaths. And you - these are some magic words, guys - even though it was mom and dad time, I would say, and this is to my daughter in particular, because I think the boys would be up later than her, and she was just like, “Life is so unfair. I go to bed the earliest.”

Kristina  28:59

Right.

Heather  29:03

I would say to her, “You do your deep breaths and get down to the business of going to sleep. I'm going to come in ten minutes and check on you.” And that was enough for her, of like, you're coming back. And I would usually nine out of ten times go back and she'd be out, right? Once in a while she'd be awake. And I'd just peek in and wave and blow a kiss. The blowing a kiss from afar is a fun thing. My daughter - I don't know what in the world - I blame it on having two older brothers, but I remember her standing in her crib, and the first time I blew her a kiss, and she wasn't even a year old. She grabbed it from the air and went, “Ow,” and put it in her mouth. And I was like, “Okay. Eat Mommy's kisses right on up.” And so that was kind of her thing. So I would just blow her a kiss and she'd grab it and eat it.

Kristina  29:57

We just, again, textbook. No words, right? At this point, we aren't doing any words, just loving looks, maybe a little blown kiss, maybe a little-

Heather  30:08

And the encouragement of “you've got this. I'm gonna go be with daddy.” “I want to be with daddy too.” “I know, but he's mine now. Bye, bye.”

Kristina  30:18

Sleep tight. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I'm Kristina.

Heather  30:29

And I'm Heather. And we're so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time

Heather and Kristina  30:34

See you on the trails!

Kristina  30:40

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather  30:51

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina  30:59

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather  31:12

The ODC Network's vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.