Grandparents

In this episode Heather and Kristina dive deep into the delicate dance between parents and grandparents. This conversation explores the emotional and practical challenges of navigating this complex family dynamic, from the deep joy of grandparent bonding to the tough moments of miscommunication and boundary-pushing. 

Did you know that half of parents are raising their kids the same way they were raised—with love and clear rules—while the other half focus more on love and relationships? From gift-giving dilemmas to disagreements over screen time, discipline, and holiday plans, Heather and Kristina tackle these and other common points of tension that pop up between generations. 

They share insights on how to foster open communication, set healthy boundaries, and ensure mutual respect—while also acknowledging the unique generational differences at play. As always, they remind us it comes back to the question: what behaviors do we want to model for our kiddos? 

Tune in for practical advice, relatable stories, and a bit of humor as they help us navigate the often tricky, always rewarding world of parenting… grandparenting!

Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood is recorded and edited by Dave Purnell and produced by Jen Plante Johnson for the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan.

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved go to: www.odcnetwork.org.

Transcript

Heather  00:00

Today, we're diving into a topic that so many of us can relate to: the sometimes tricky relationship between parents and grandparents.

Kristina  00:07

It's a love-filled relationship, but with a fair share of challenges too. We're talking everything from emotional ups and downs to the practical issues that come up when families try to get along.

Heather  00:19

Exactly. As parents we’re often stuck between honoring how we were raised and figuring out our own parenting style. And then there are just some typical, classic points of tension, like gift giving, holiday plans, screen time and discipline.

Kristina  00:35

We'll share why it's super important to keep communication open, set boundaries and show respect, especially when things get tricky. 

Heather  00:43

We'll also chat about understanding generational differences and how we as parents can model respectful interactions for our kids. After all, they're learning how to handle these family dynamics from us. 

Kristina  00:54

So if you've ever found yourself in a generational clash with family, or you just want some tips on how to balance it all, this episode is for you.

Heather  01:07

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina  01:10

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We'll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name's Kristina Boersma.

Heather  01:23

And I'm Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who've been working with families and children for a good long minute. We're support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today's world.

Kristina  01:45

We're here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready? 

Kristina and Heather

Let's hit the trails.

Heather  01:58

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers, and their parents.

Kristina  02:10

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

Heather  02:18

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network's mission and impact. Today, we're going to talk about grandparents.

Kristina  02:32

This is a sensitive topic.

Heather  02:34

It is. And grandparents are so wonderful. I had really impactful grandparents in my life. I know you did as well. You had a grandma that lived with you for a bit. I grew up next to a set of my grandparents. When my husband and I got married, he had a set of grandparents. And they are gone now, but they were so impactful in our lives. And grandparents are the magic. They're a treasure. They're wonderful. And they just always seem to have enough time, which, as a child, I loved.

Kristina  03:10

Yes, yes. There's such a beauty in being a grandparent. Yes, right? And I think, right, when you become a grandparent, many times, not always, but many times, you just have more space and more time, more patience, more resources. Yeah, and it's the beauty, right? It's like, hey, I get to be the grandparent and have all the fun, and then I send them back home to their parents all sugared up. 

Heather 

It's so true. 

Kristina

I'm Grandma, I get to spoil them, right?

Heather  03:41

Yes. And they leave such a tremendous mark on our lives and on our children's lives. And that's why this topic is tricky, because there's so much love woven into it. There's so much emotion woven into it. And that's what makes families tricky, right? Is when our heart is all wrapped up in it, and it just makes things tricky. So we hear a lot from parents in our parenting classes, “I feel like my parents don't see me as a grown up raising children. I still feel like their kid.” 

Kristina  04:24

Yes well, and that's the thing, right? So our parents will always be our parents, and we’ll always be their children.

Heather  04:32

It's their role. And it's a role that doesn't end. They're always our parents, right?

Kristina  04:38

And then when we become parents and they become grandparents, they're still viewing us as their children. And so they have a lot of wisdom that they can share. They have so much experience, and they want to continue to impart that to us. They've parented, right? Their kids have turned out well, and they want to help us parent our children.

Heather  05:01

And that's the thing is, they're coming at it, at least in my experience, from a place of wanting to help. But doesn't always feel like help. Sometimes it feels like criticism. Sometimes it feels like we're being undermined.

Kristina  05:16

Or judged because we're not doing it, maybe the way that they did it.

Heather  05:21

And maybe they don't have faith in this method or this philosophy that we're trying.

Kristina  05:27

Or they don't really even understand it, right? That's one of the things that, actually, I've heard about the podcast from listeners, is, “Oh, it's so helpful because I can share it with my parents. And then they have a better understanding. 

Heather  05:41

Because maybe we can't put into words what we're trying to attain in this relationship with growing our children. And maybe the podcast can be a vehicle to do that. So true. Grandparents are so wonderful. Don't hear us say that it's not worth the tricky. Oh, all day long, it's all day long worth-

Kristina  06:00

Worth the tricky. So there was an interesting piece of research that I read recently. And you had read it too. Share that with us.

Heather  06:08

And we'll put it in the show notes so you can take a closer look at it. But I thought it was fascinating. It was very recent research, and it said that fifty percent of parents are attempting to raise their children similarly to how they were raised. That also means that then roughly fifty percent of U.S. parents say that they're attempting to raise their children differently than they were raised. So let's go to the fifty that say that they're raising them similarly. This was really interesting to me. The fifty percent that said they're raising them similarly tended to grow up in homes where they had gotten a lot of unconditional love. It felt safe. And it was a place of verbal affirmation and outward displays of affection. I think that's really important to mention. 

Kristina

Yes, that was very interesting.

Heather

It was, and it was a little further down the road, because I was surprised, because based on what we hear from parents, I would have thought it was higher that more people were trying to raise their children differently. So we had to dig into it a bit more. So the individuals that are choosing to raise their children similarly to how they were raised are modeling after obedience, focuses on rules, responsibility, manners, chores, and accountability. Who does that sound like? When we think back to temperament, it's like, “Oh, of course!”

Kristina

It's the Guardians. 

Heather

It's the Guardians. It's the Guardians, which is fifty percent of our population. Yep. And they value all those things, right? The duty, the responsibility. They organize their world around law and order.

Kristina  07:59

I love when you said this -those folks grew up in really loving homes.

Heather  08:02

Yes. The outward affection and unconditional love, and verbal affirmation. So they grew up in loving yet, I would say there was a pretty strong framework of rules. What's right and wrong accountability, and that's the Guardians, and it's the Rationals, because it's logical. So yeah, fifty percent of our population, right there. Absolutely. And for the fifty percent of individuals, roughly, that are raising their children differently, they say that they're focusing more on love and relationship itself. And who does that sound like? 

Kristina

Oh, the Idealists all day long.

Heather

Yep. And the Artisans. We want beautiful, harmonious homes and relationships. And they say they're taking a different approach in raising their children. And they are working to give them more love and affection than they received as a child. They want their children to feel like they're growing up in homes where there is a lot of support coming alongside. So I thought that was really interesting. 

Kristina  09:13

Yeah. That group focuses more on the parenting style and like, philosophies and approaches to discipline and setting expectations for behavior.

Heather  09:22

Yeah. Which sounds an awful lot like how we're trying to do it in our homes. 

Kristina  09:26

Yes, so part of the trick becomes respecting our parents and their parenting, respecting that past while also charting a new course.

Heather  09:42

Yeah, and I think it requires us saying that out loud to them. Like “It's different now. It's not that I'm doing it differently than you did. It's that you were parenting for the world that we had,” right? And we just know more now, right? 

Kristina  10:00

Because many times our parents, when we choose to do it differently, parent differently, they feel that as a judgment on their parenting.

Heather  10:09

I think they can hear it as “You didn't do it well enough. So I'm doing it differently, “and it's not that at all, right? 

Kristina  10:18

No. And you'll hear things like, “Well, you know, I was a terrible parent.” No, you weren't a terrible parent. 

Heather  10:24

Or you'll hear things like, “Well, I don't know how you turned out okay.” Yeah. “How are you even still alive?” 

Kristina  10:31

Well,and sometimes I wonder that, right? Because we do too. We grew up in a world, right, where-

Heather  10:37

There was way less supervision, 

Kristina

My goodness. Way less supervision. 

Heather

Oh, man, yeah. 

Kristina  10:43

Well, and we didn't walk around with water bottles all day. I mean, we were like chronically dehydrated.

Heather  10:48

We carried our baloney sandwich that had mayonnaise on it in a rusty lunch box to a hot school. I ate that sandwich.

Kristina  10:57

A Holly Hobby lunch box, if we were lucky, right?

Heather  11:02

I had the Fox and the Hound. 

Kristina  11:04

Oh, lucky duck. Yeah. There were no ice packs back then to keep mayonnaise cold.

Heather  11:09

No, we all lived, I guess. 

Kristina

No bike helmets.

Heather

No, we rolled around in station wagons with all of our cousins and cars filled with smoke, because everyone smoked.

Kristina  11:23

Yeah, or you'd be in the station wagon and like four of you are rolling around in the back because you could. We did things differently back then. 

Heather

No car seats.

Kristina

No. No car seats, none of that. No. Uh uh.

Heather  11:37

My husband grew up riding his big wheel to the corner store to buy candy cigarettes. It was a different time, folks, it was a different time. 

Kristina  11:46

It was and didn't we look cool?

Heather  11:49

I'm not sure we looked cool. 

Kristina

I'm sure we didn't. I'm sure we didn't.

Heather

But we sure had fun.

Kristina  11:54

Yeah, and it wasn't busy like it is now. No back when we were being raised.

Heather  11:58

And there was no technology. Like we had a phone hooked to a wall with a cord.

Kristina  12:03

And some of us had a party line.

Heather  12:05

My cousins did, and that was fun.

Kristina  12:09

Yeah, we many times back in the day, homes had a parent or a parent figure who were in the home. They weren't working outside of the home. And so things felt very different. 

Heather  12:22

Very different. And there was this village, right? That we will talk about like you knew your kid was going to be fed. They didn't need to come home to eat. Somebody in the neighborhood was going to take that turn right? 

Kristina

Because the neighbors all knew each other. 

Heather

Making twelve sandwiches for all the kids hanging out and ramming around. And that parent at home oftentimes just pushed kids outside and were like, “See you at dinner!” And that's how it went. 

Kristina  12:46

So the world is different now than it was when we were raised. And we grew up in very happy, healthy homes. We were very fortunate. Not everybody had that, right? So some of us come into parenting with an experience of being parented that carries with it some pain.

Heather  13:07

Absolutely. And some things to reconcile within ourselves.

Kristina  13:12

Right. So when we think about grandparents who parented their children in ways that left them feeling unsafe and unloved, then that's a different dynamic of saying, “What exposure do I want my child to have to my parent their grandparent, if that relationship isn't healthy?” So when we think about charting this new course, and whether that's with parents who raised you with love and great affection, or parents that didn't, what are some of the key things that we need to remember? What are the critical things we need to remember?

Heather  13:52

I think the biggest thing for so many parents is just the open communication. And that gets really hard, because, again, we will always be our parent's child. And sometimes when we're in that space, we can just become six years old so quickly. And it gets hard to assert ourselves with our parents. So it's about communication. It's about setting boundaries. And the common things that we hear come up so so frequently that are points of contention: gifts. “My parent just wants to buy all of the things for Christmas or birthday or just any day of the week…”

Kristina  14:40

Or I have friends that you know it's like, “Well, of course, we make Easter baskets for the grandchildren.” I think we didn't even have Easter baskets growing up. And yet, grandparents are doing these things for their grandchildren. And in some ways, it kind of robs the experience from the parents. 

Heather  15:00

It does. It does, and that's what it feels like. But that's not the intention. The intention is to do something beautiful and have this wonderful experience. And I think maybe they recognize the busyness that they didn't have in the same way?

Kristina  15:17

I distinctly remember when Grace was maybe two, my mom bought her a beautiful Christmas dress. 

Heather

I remember this-

Kristina

And I was really mad. I was really mad about it. And that seemed so silly. What a generous gift for my mom to buy this beautiful dress for my daughter. It was a beautiful gesture and a lovely gift, but I wanted to pick out my daughter's Christmas dress. 

Heather  15:46

I had the same thing with a baptismal gown for my daughter. Like, we had very different ideas, right? Spanning generations have different tastes.

Kristina  15:56

And I know that I was upset. And I'm sure that hurt my mom because she was doing this out of love. And I think that's one of the key things that we need to remember is that we all love the children. 

Heather  16:10

Yes, that is a very important key thing to remember. And it's also important for us to remember like you have a different perspective on it now that you have distance from it. But when we're in it, it feels like a bit of an assault.

Kristina  16:29

Well, like you just stole that. I now will not be able to buy my daughter's first Christmas dress because it was already purchased for her. And so, again, I mean, I'm acting like a child, right? Like “I don't want you to buy her a dress,” which is so childish. And yet there was something about- 

Heather  16:48

Well and you had waited a really long time to be a mom, a really long time. And so it felt like a bit of a robbing of an experience. 

Kristina  16:58

So the intention behind whatever it is, if it's a gift, if it's something else, and the way it's received is not always the same.

Heather  17:07

And again, because we're family, it's not a co-worker, it's not an acquaintance, it's a family member. All of our everything - our past, our present, what we believe for the future -  is all wound in it differently, because it's our family. And that's why I think the stepping away from it and gaining a larger perspective is really, really hard. Would you agree? 

Kristina

I absolutely agree. 

Heather

I think that's really tricky when it's our family, especially a parent. It just feels bigger.

Kristina  17:41

Right. And, again, if we're reduced to being a child in that interaction with our parent, it's hard to even contradict them for some of us.

Heather  17:49

And so it's really important to remember the parent child role is a lifelong role in positioning, right? But how can we get to a place of mutual respect and an understanding? So let's go back to our common points of contention: gifts. We've talked about gifts we hear about a lot. Another big one is: where are we going to spend the holidays? 

Kristina  18:15

Oh yes. Oh my Yes. And especially if you have a bigger family.

Heather  18:22

Or a divorced family. Both of my husband, divorces both sides, so with just our parents, it's four parties.

Kristina  18:30

Yeah. “But I want you here with me on Christmas,” right? 

Heather  18:34

And we always did that on Christmas Eve. So it's sometimes not understanding as our family grows and we bring in, you know, a daughter-in-law and a son-in-law who are dealing with a whole other family unit. And even though we always did this on Christmas Eve, it's a family tradition within my own sweet little family, and then we did this within my own sweet little family. On Christmas Day, we can't have all of the time, right? We can't take all of the time for that one family unit, because now we have all of these other in-laws in there, and so we have other considerations. 

Kristina  19:14

My mom did a beautiful thing, so many beautiful things, but one of the things she said as we were growing up was “The day is not important. It's the gathering.”

Heather  19:24

And that is what my husband and I have always said. We have two boys. We know how this goes. My husband came from a family of two boys and a girl. The boys tend to oftentimes go with their spouse, and we've always said, because it was so hard for us, coming from divorced families, at first, to have to go to all of those places and have four parties with just our parents alone. And then, if there was any extended gatherings, there's just not enough time. And when you have little kids, they are tired. Right? Or overstimulated. 

Kristina  20:02

I have a lot of friends who have two Thanksgivings on the same day.

Heather  20:07

Yep. And we had to set a boundary with that and say, “We will not. We will not do that,” because at that point, it doesn't feel like you're able to enjoy, right? Because it just becomes harried and chaotic, at least it did for us. And so we set a boundary around: we will go one place. We can have another celebration at another time. But it's all those things of talking that through and figuring that out. Another big thing that we hear from a lot of parents is screen time. “I don't want my child, my young child, on my parents smartphone or on an iPad or on a device.” Or as a babysitter to be in front of a screen. And they don't respect that. Or they don't understand that. And they just think it's no big deal. And they know my child loves it. And of course, they love it, right? But the parent is saying “It doesn't mean it's what's best for them.” And it's something that I've said I don't want my child to experience, and yet it keeps coming up.

Kristina  21:11

Well, and I think a piece of that could be that as our parents age, they don't have the same stamina that they had when they were getting- and those little ones, especially if you have, you know, more than one, that a grandparent may be spending time with. It can be exhausting. 

Heather  21:31

It can be exhausting and really loud. Yep. Really stimulating.

Kristina  21:35

So sometimes a screen is used just to give Grandma a break.

Heather  21:40

So it requires, again, zooming out and stepping back from the situation and saying, am I setting my parents up well, for success? Is this a reasonable ask, and what can we flex on? What can we mutually agree upon? And sometimes it's just educating and saying “I didn't know either, but I've learned about the dopamine dump.” Or “I've learned about the effects of blue light and what that has for vision and all different things,” just educating.

Kristina  22:08

And to complicate the matter further, especially in this area we live in, West Michigan, there are many, many, many grandparents who are part of the childcare plan for their grandchildren.

Heather  22:20

They pick up at preschool. They provide lunch. They're the childcare provider until after parents are out of work.

Kristina  22:28

There's a lot of that going on, which makes things then especially tricky, because you don't just get to be grandma. Yeah, you're grandma, and it's a dual role. It is a dual role, and that can be tricky, and you're a childcare provider. So other things that come up and can be points of contention are the things that we eat. It's so fun as a grandparent or, I mean, “I just sugar them up and send them home.” Being the auntie, right? And being and bringing in all of that, oh, all the good stuff that it's not good stuff, but showering the children, my nieces and nephews, with that type of thing, because it made me happy. It made them happy, and I wanted to be their favorite.

Heather  23:07

And you didn't have to deal with the consequences of that action.

Kristina  23:12

Nope, because I got to go home. Yep. So true. Another point of contention can be discipline. That's a biggie. It is a biggie, and we know so much more now than we did then about the impact of discipline and punishment and what it has to do with our attachment and the long term well being and mental health of children. So we know more now, and many of us are doing it differently than our parents raised us and disciplined us so it can look weak, right?

Heather  23:47

Yeah, it's hard for me to hear that it looks weak. I get it. I would say it looks different, because I know how much work it requires, right? So when it's like, it's weak, it's like, “Oh, but it's so much work, right?”

Kristina  24:02

But it'll be things like, “Are you gonna let her talk to you? Then, I mean, “I would have never let you get away with that.” And so in that way, it seems maybe not weak. It seems a little soft. Yeah. So coming to an understanding about that with your parents and saying, “We might not agree on this.” I don't need to go to war over it, right? With my parent, right? I can say “We may not agree on this. This is my understanding. This is what we're doing to raise our children. And I really hope that you can help me and support me in that, because this parenting gig is tough.”

Heather  24:44

And it requires so much support and so much understanding. And that discipline piece is one that is pretty drastically different in a lot of families, generation to generation, and it can be a real point of contention. 

Kristina  25:02

Yeah, another thing is developmentally appropriate, behavioral expectations, right? Understanding what a four year old is able to do versus what an eight year old is able to do. I know we we've spoken about this before, but manipulation is a pretty high level cognitive skill. And yet, we as adults and parents and grandparents can think, “Oh, they are manipulating me.” And, you know, place on children behavioral expectations that aren't appropriate to where they are developmentally. So sharing that kind of information. And we want to do it in a way that is so respectful, yes, because what you don't want to communicate inadvertently is you didn't know, but this isn't the way it is. Or maybe you've forgotten that was my thing. It's like, maybe you've forgotten what it's like to have a fourteen month old and what that means. Or like, yeah, “I know you had us all potty trained by eighteen months because there was another baby coming. I have no idea how you did that. That did not work in my home with my child.” 

Heather  26:21

So but coming at it with respect and knowing we can all learn from one another, right? Like parent to child. Child to parent. If we approach it as a learner and to seek to understand it's vastly different than if we're at odds and we're trying to prove we're trying to win, right? Which is a very different way to approach a conversation. It's, it's being able to not pick up every “never let you get away with that.” You can just let that fall. We don't have to respond to that in that moment. 

Kristina  26:58

Or, you could say, “You know what? You're right. Mom, you never would have let me get away with that you're right.

Heather  27:04

And to be able to say: “This is why.” Give the why. And if we can just have that type- and not let all of that past kind of from our childhood creep back in and tap us. Ooh, that gets so tricky once we're activated in our emotion center, right?

Kristina  27:24

But, I mean, our parents, they didn't know that we were dehydrated, right? It's just the way it was. They didn't worry about the mayonnaise and the rusty lunchbox.

Heather  27:32

We had the healthiest guts of all time. I did. It's all that warm mayonnaise. 

Kristina  27:38

We consumed a lot of things we shouldn't have probably. We certainly weren't sanitizing our hands all the time.

Heather  27:42

We were in dirt. Yeah, a lot, a lot. 

Kristina  27:45

So it was different. And they did the best they could. My parents were amazing. 

Heather  27:54

Not everybody has that experience, and what you in those moments of the hard you can go back to, “Oh man, my childhood was so great for so many reasons.” You can reassure your parents in those moments of, “Oh, it was so great. And this is what I love, specifically about it. “ So you can get to a better place. And you can get back in our frontal lobe and back in our logical brain versus our emotion center, and joining them in “Yeah, you're a great parent.” 

Kristina  28:23

Because it's not me against you. No, we're together, right? We are allies and adversaries, nurturing this little person. For many of them, the first time they have a grandchild, they've not done this before. They don't know what it means to be a grandparent yet, but the reminder of, they love you.

Heather  28:41

They love this beautiful child. No one is trying to irritate anyone on purpose. If we can come to the table and be on the same side of the table with that understanding, the child's gonna win. And we do need to say, we also have to remember, it's not easy for our child to see the people they love in opposition. That's a tricky spot. And so I always had to think, and I still do, “What do I want to model for my children in this moment?” Because by golly in a blink it is going to be my adult child there. And I'm going to be in my parents’ seat. And how do I want my adult child to regard me? Because this is going to repeat. 

Kristina  29:33

Yes, it's cyclical. And they'll know more. When our children have children, they'll know more than we do now. And we're doing the best we can. I think something that's important, Heather, that I just want to point out is that we need to be very careful when choosing the hill that we're willing to die on.

Heather  29:52

Absolutely. We are not going to die on every hill. We’ve got to let some of them fall away

Kristina  29:57

Absolutely. And we need to be able to do that in a loving way. So if you do have to have a difficult conversation with your parent about something that you're doing differently, and they're having a difficult time doing that. So let's just say we're choosing to speak with words that are not shaming to a child, and we use empathy and understanding. So we don't say, “You know, knock it off. I'll give you something to cry about.” We don't do any of that kind of stuff. And if our parents are still doing that, then we get to have a hard conversation with them. But to go in with this is going to be a tricky conversation, and just call it out.

Heather  30:36

Yeah, call it out. And this isn't going to be easy to hear, right? But you can do it. Yeah, we love each other, and we care for each other, and we can talk about anything. And all of a sudden they're like, “Oh, yeah, we can. You taught me that, mom.” And then, saying to them, “I need you.” That's not manipulation to say “You taught me that, Mom.” It's just a reminder how great they did. 

Kristina  30:59

Yes. “We can do this, and I need your help.” 

Heather  31:04

Because they want to help. They do they want to know that they're still relevant, right?

Kristina  31:08

And you can say to them, “I know you don't agree with this, I know. So it's really hard. This is a line that I'm not willing to cross. And I want you to have this relationship with your grandchild. They love you. And your presence in their life is so important.” Intergenerational relationships, very important and precious,

Heather  31:32

And “can you join me in holding this boundary? Can you see the long view of what I'm trying to accomplish here? Will you join me and help bring this child up in that way?”

Kristina  31:48

Yeah, I love it. Grandparents are a treasure.

Heather  31:52

They sure are. And they are to be treated as a treasure. Yeah, they are and regarded as a treasure. 

Kristina  32:02

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I'm Kristina.

Heather  32:08

And I'm Heather. And we're so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina  32:13

Until next time-

Heather and Kristina 

See you on the trails!

Kristina  32:19

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

Heather  32:30

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina  32:38

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

Heather  32:51

The ODC Network's vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.