Body Safety

In this powerful episode, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive deep into the crucial topic of teaching children about body safety. They shed light on the alarming statistics from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, revealing that one in five girls and one in ten boys will experience sexual abuse before adulthood, with fewer than 35% of cases ever reported. Their conversation focuses on empowering kids to recognize "tricky people" and foster open lines of communication. Kristina and Heather share effective strategies, like teaching children their personal information, understanding privacy, and the critical importance of not keeping secrets. They also emphasize how parents can spot grooming behaviors and respond with care and support if a child discloses abuse. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that provides essential tools to empower parents and protect our children.

Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood is recorded and edited by Dave Purnell and produced by Jen Plante Johnson for the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan.

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved go to: www.odcnetwork.org.

Transcript

Kristina  00:00

We have a really important conversation lined up for you today. We're going to be discussing something that unfortunately doesn't get talked about enough: teaching our kids about body safety. 

Heather  00:12

That's right. We'll be sharing some important statistics from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Sadly, one in five girls and one in 10 boys will experience sexual abuse before they reach adulthood. Even more concerning, less than 35% of those cases are ever reported. 

Kristina  00:31

It's heartbreaking. But it's also a wake up call. So in today's episode, we'll be talking about how we can empower kids to protect themselves, how we can teach them about tricky people privacy and the importance of knowing their own personal information, like their name, address and phone number. 

Heather  00:50

We'll also discuss the dangers of grooming and why it's so crucial that we help kids understand the concept of not keeping secrets. We'll wrap up with some practical advice on how to respond if a child comes to you with a disclosure of abuse.

Kristina  01:05

This conversation is so important, not just for parents, but for anyone who cares about children's well being. 

Heather  01:13

Let's dive in and explore how we can all play a part in building open lines of communication and keeping kids safe. Together, we can make a real difference.

Heather  01:27

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina  01:30

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We'll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name's Kristina Boersma.

Heather  01:43

And I'm Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who've been working with families and children for a good long minute. We're support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today's world.

Kristina  02:05

We're here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready?

Kristina and Heather  02:12

Let's hit the trails. 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing non-profit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting pre students, their teachers and their parents.

Kristina  02:31

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

Heather  02:38

Please visit www.ODCnetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network's mission and impact.

Kristina  02:48

We've talked about teaching our kids consent, and that their “no” means “no.” Their “yes” means “yes.” And that they have bodily autonomy, except in situations that involve their health and their well being. So today we're talking about body safety, and this is not an easy topic to talk about. 

Heather

It can be very triggering. 

Kristina

It can be. And what I want us to do is really take care of ourselves. And we each know what that means for us. And if it means reading the show notes, looking at the transcript first, yeah, before really diving in, yeah, take care of yourselves.

Heather  03:29

Maybe you're listening and you go for a walk, to your favorite spot that brings you peace and calm, or

Kristina  03:36

you listen in chunks, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself, because it's too important a topic to not cover. So we're diving in today. 

Heather  03:46

Here we go. Let's talk about why this topic is so important to us. As moms, we wanted to keep our kids safe. We wanted to figure out how we could make sure that they had an understanding of who could touch them, how they could be touched, what they needed to watch out for. My kids are all helpers. And I didn't want them to fall into a bit of a trap with somebody who was tricky and maybe didn't have their best intentions. So the current statistics are a bit staggering. 

Kristina

Yeah, they make you catch your breath. 

Heather

They absolutely do. So let's just jump right in. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the statistics show that one in five girls and one in 10 boys are sexually exploited before they reach adulthood. And yet, less than 35% of those are reported to authorities. That is way too many not being reported. 

Kristina  04:55

I'm covered in like goosebumps, and it's very troubling. 

Heather  05:00

It is very, very troubling. Even more daunting is that 90% of childhood sexual abuse occurs by someone who's very well known to the child, oftentimes someone in our own family.

Kristina  05:16

You know, and I grew up-

Heather

“Stranger danger.” 

Kristina

Stranger danger. Yes, you were always--

Heather  05:22

Because we were all over the neighborhood, on our bikes in a pack, so you were looking for the stranger. 

Kristina  05:31

I think as parents, we tend to default still to that it's the stranger who is dangerous, yeah?

Heather  05:38

And we're going to think about that a bit differently and talk instead about “tricky people” and what that means, and using that language.

Kristina  05:47

I love the difference in saying, you know, stranger danger, and instead really teaching our children and ourselves to tune in to that feeling we get when we're around tricky people and not dismiss it.

Heather  06:01

Trust that gut and that we teach our kids to do that, absolutely. And the majority of childhood sexual abuse cases, not only are children groomed, so are parents. So we're gonna take a really deep look at what does grooming look like. How can we be aware that it might be happening to us? What are some things that we would want to really clue into, and what might be a red flag?

Kristina  06:28

Yeah, it's really about raising our consciousness, right? That you don't know you're being groomed when you're being groomed. So we need to be more aware of what that looks like, what it sounds like. So we're going to really explore-

Heather  06:45

Tune into it and be able to identify it. The other thing is that 60% of child sexual abuse victims never tell anyone. 60% that six out of 10 children never tell anyone. So open communication with our children is of paramount importance that they are always comfortable coming to us, because unfortunately, Kristina, what do children feel like when they maybe have been sexually abused? Who do they blame?

Kristina

Themselves.

Heather

They absolutely do. And it takes such bravery to be able to go to a parent. And it takes lots of conversations as parents to reassure them it is not your fault. You will not be in trouble. But it's one of those things that has to be said and heard over and over and over and over. And it's a conversation that begins and then grows and evolves over time. So it's just kind of this one big conversation that you just keep having over the years, and it evolves as we go.

Kristina  08:00

So teaching your child their name, address and your phone number are important because they need that information so that if they were in a situation where their “uh oh” feeling was triggered

Heather  08:14

Or they're separated from you.

Kristina  08:16

They need to be able to communicate and let others know who they are-

Heather

And where they belong- 

Kristina

And who they belong to-

Heather

And how to get a hold of that person.

Kristina

Absolutely. Another thing -and we started this when our kids were really, really young - teaching them that their private parts are private and they only belong to them.

Heather  08:36

And it's about teaching privacy. I remember when my kids were potty training, teaching them like, it's okay to have privacy. Close the door, right? Because sometimes kids, they're in a hurry and they want to get back out to play and the door is wide, I'm like, “Oh, let's have some privacy.” And so then they would kind of be empowered by the word privacy. And yeah, it would be, “I need privacy!” But it's a great way to begin the conversation. And they say it so cute. And then they begin to understand what privacy really means. “Oh, I get to be by myself. I get to have this moment.”

Kristina  09:13

Well, and that leads me right into remembering all the role playing that I did with Grace when she was little, and we did a lot of it, like at tubby time, when she was having a bath. And we would role play all kinds of things. And I, as she got older, would say things like, “You know, what happens if somebody touches you in a private part or touches you-

Heather  09:37

This is the best way to teach the “big voice.”

Kristina  09:40

Yes. And that you can say “no” and say it fiercely. And as she got older, I'd start talking about things like, even if somebody says to you, “I'm gonna hurt your parents. Your parents won't love you. I'm gonna do these really bad things.” That's not true, and how do you use your big voice? So, she got good at that big voice.

Heather  10:06

Would you remember both of us saying to our girls? Yeah, never my boys. I have two boys. I never had to say this to my boys, but I had to say this to my daughter, and I know you did too, “Oh, honey, you're confused. Mommy is friend. I am not foe. That voice is fierce and it is wonderful, and you're gonna need it someday. Tuck it in your back pocket. Not mommy.” And this is the like, “Pull that voice out, girl. Pull that voice out. This is the moment to use your fierce voice.”

Kristina  10:43

And in some ways, we made it playful, right? Grace would be like-

Heather  10:47

Well, it's practice, yeah. And for kids, we know they learn through play.

Kristina  10:51

Right. So it doesn't need to be “Dun, dun, dun! Here you go. Somebody's coming up to you. And they're asking this. And they're doing this!”

Heather  10:59

You're scaring me.

Kristina  11:03

But we do it all kinds of different ways, right? But it’s that empowering her to use her voice. I remember her saying “no” to me. I mean, she said “no” to me a lot. But when she was little, saying “no” to me about something, and Vince saying to her, “You do not say ‘no’ to your mother.” And I said, “Oh, she may say ‘no’ to me. Doesn't mean she's going to get what she wants, but she gets to use that voice. And there's no exception. She can use that voice without exception.” Because, again, if we're thinking about the fact that –

Heather

it's zooming out - 

Kristina  

11:44

Well and the vast majority of times that children harmed, it’s by somebody they know. And they have to be confident and brave in saying that voice and trusting that “uh oh” feeling.

Kristina  11:52

So the other thing that we did, I know in our homes, was that we don't keep secrets in our home. No secrets, no dares.

Heather  11:59

We didn't do secrets. I'm guilty of the dares. 

Kristina

Oh, I know you double down man

Heather

I double dog dare you. Yeah, probably not sage parenting advice…

Kristina  12:11

But we just didn't do dares. 

Heather

Probably a nice boundary. 

Kristina

So there are surprises, but you don't keep secrets.

Heather  12:21

Absolutely secrets. Talk about the intention behind secrets and why your family didn't keep secrets. Yeah,

Kristina  12:28

It's because too often children, especially if they're in a situation where something's happening that shouldn't be happening, the perpetrator will say, “this is just between you and me. It's our little secret. our little secret.” And I wanted my child to hear the word secret and be like, Red Alert! Red Alert. Red alert. I need to tell my parents. I'm telling my parents.

Heather  12:50

S.O.S! And even at school when the little groups begin to form and it's like, “Oh, let's have a secret, and let's not…” It's just they don't, oftentimes, come from a place of loving kindness. So saying, “You know, we do surprises, but we don't do secrets.”

Kristina  13:09

That was really important for us to make sure that Grace grew up knowing that secrets were not something that we would participate in. And that if somebody asked her to keep a secret, she was to come directly to me

Heather

Immediately.

Kristina

Now that doesn't mean that she doesn't keep some things private. And the older our kids get, the more things that they will keep private. 

Heather

Or that we can't share in a surprise, right? 

Kristina

Oh yeah, that's super fun, but we just don't-

Heather

We call it a surprise. We don't call it a secret. Nice. 

Kristina

So I want, Heather, you to explain, because I think you do a lovely job of this about what “tricky people,” the “tricky people.”

Heather  13:44

Yeah, this is I- this was something I read years and years ago that resonated with me so much. And it's the work of Pattie Fitzgerald from Safely Ever After. She's authored books. We have talked about this in our parenting classes. The first time I read her work, it was this notion of: strangers aren't the danger, right? And we grew up in the “stranger danger” 80s, right? And it was the first time I had ever heard it told like this, that really the concept is: no adult needs to go to a child for help. That's a tricky person. And they are indeed tricky. And they're good at what they do, because these perpetrators of children do not have a certain look about them. You can't spot them, and it would be so much easier if we could. But it's not about what someone looks like, it's not about what they wear. It's more about how they act around you, how they act around your child, how much access they're trying to. Gain to your child. And just how they behave around them in general. So I love the idea of tricky people, because I had kids that wanted to be helpers, and I could so easily see them falling into that trap. So for me, it was really powerful learning. And so it was me sitting down and my husband sitting down with our kids and saying, “So tricky people are people who try to trick you. They might try to get you in their vehicle, or they might ask you for help. They might just try to hang out with you when mom and dad aren't around, or they might try to invite you in to do something that you know you shouldn't be doing, or provide you with something you know you shouldn't have. Those are the actions of tricky people, and sometimes they try to trick us too, and so being able to say to our kids, no adult needs to come to a child now, grandparents, yes, help your grandparents, but that's different, right? No adult that you do not know should come to you and ask you for help, right? And if they do, you need to find your parent immediately.” I would also teach them to never go anywhere or take anything from someone they didn't know, no matter what they say, right? Because that's tricky again. “Oh, your mom wanted me to pick you up.” “Your mom said you should come with-“ “I'm gonna bring you to your mom,” or “I'm gonna bring you to your dad.” 

Kristina  16:38

Yeah, you know, I live in an incredible neighborhood. It is a place where we all know each other. We love each other. We support each other. We, you know, commiserate about how difficult it can be sometimes raising children. We celebrate each other's growth and the children as they grow up. It's lovely. Grace, when she was very little, like, four years old. If we were outside and I was gardening or something, she would just walk into the neighbor's house, not just one neighbor, multiple neighbors, you know, it'd be like, o”Oh yeah. Grace visited us today.” I'd realize that she was gone, obviously. But we had to talk about how she always had to ask permission before she would go anywhere.

Heather  17:21

-Go anywhere or get in a vehicle with anyone, we must ask permission, absolutely. And it goes back to also because they're not strangers. Oftentimes they are community members. It is the person who lives two doors down, or it is someone in our family. When we're at a family gathering, there might be someone who you notice is just, huh, they're way too old to always be hanging out with the kids. Why is that? 30-something year old hanging out with the kids and not with the adults? Those are things that would be a red flag, right? And so teaching our kids, that “uh oh” feeling, which we've talked about a bit before, and to trust that instinct and that we stand by them in that and we don't say, “You're fine, it's fine. He would never, she would never. They love you. They would never do anything to you. It's being able to say, tell me more about that.

Kristina  18:19

Well, do you remember when we were up north vacationing together, and Ava and Grace were in the pool where they had walked down?

Heather  18:26

Yes, right from the condo. And they had done that together. But had an interaction that made Ava's “uh oh” feeling engaged. And I had watched them from the balcony, and she was motioning to me, her discomfort, to which I was like, “We gotta go. Something's happening. I don't know what it is.” So we get down there. Grace is like swimming like a dog paddle andthe breaststroke, in the hot tub. I can see him as plain as day. And Ava is like fear and trepidation on her face. And so I go to her and I say, “What is the matter?” And she's like “That man. That man right there. Don't look right now. He's looking right at us. That man right there. He followed us down, and made me very uncomfortable.” And then when we got down here, he went up there. And now he's on his balcony. And he's just been watching us. Yeah, and Grace was, you know, bobbing up and bobbing down, and none the wiser. And Ava is beside her. She's really uncomfortable. She's really uncomfortable. And I say to her, “I'm here. I've got this. I'm gonna turn and I'm gonna address the man.” And she's like, “Okay, Mom.” In my swimsuit. 180. Yep. Eyeballs to eyeballs. On this man 

Kristina  19:57

And your hands on your hips.You assumed, like the superhero.

Heather  20:01

Oh, that said, “Don't make me come up there. Because I will. And if I do, it's not gonna be pretty. Don’t you, sir, make my eight year old daughter uncomfortable.” And what did he do? Do you remember?

Kristina  20:21

Oh, he went inside.

Heather  20:24

He did.

Kristina  20:26

Which is another great thing to point out. In that moment, you were demonstrated that-

Heather  20:31

People who are guilty of nothing do not turn about and go inside. No. I just want to say that, right?

Kristina  20:36

And you were demonstrating that you were a very involved, present parent to Ava. And this man. I was going to call him a “gentleman,” but he was not behaving like a gentleman. And that's important, right, that you're a parent who showed up. Who was engaged. Who was no way, not today, not my kid. Yep, we don't have to be concerned about being polite, being nice, any of those things. 

Heather  21:03

And in that moment, Ava knew I'm an ally. Yes, I believe her. I didn't say to her, “Well, honey, did he do anything?”

Kristina

Well, remember the boys? 

Heather

Yes, after when she was telling this, my boys were like, “Well, what did he do to you? He didn't actually do anything to you.” And so it took a lot of conversation to be able to say, “We do not wait until harm has been done. Right? You listen to your sister and you trust and you move and you support and you align. But in that moment, they needed to very specifically be taught: we do not wait for harm to occur. And when your little sister is communicating her distress, you move in and support. Or your mama gonna come for you too. 

Kristina  22:00

That's right. And they better know it.

Heather

That's right,

Kristina  22:18

So we don't need to be polite in the face of that behavior that makes us uncomfortable. And we need to be having conversations with our children right along the way. We don't wait. And this is so hard, right? Because we don't want to believe something could happen to our child. We just don't even want to go there. But having the conversations about, “has anybody made you feel uncomfortable?” And really keeping that dialog going? Not incessantly, right? You don't want to be these, you know, investigators like “who touched you?” 

Heather  22:55

Talk to them about Grace and the dentist, about how you taught her who had access to her body, and in what company? 

Kristina  23:04

Yep. So that was another thing we talked about at bath time. We would talk about, you know, what are your private parts? Her whole body is hers, right? Bodily autonomy. She gets to decide who's going to touch her body, not just her private parts. And that there were some people, in some circumstances, that even if she wasn't giving her consent because of her safety and her health and her well-being, that there are people like her doctors with us, present with us, being her parents and while she was getting a bath, right? So there was her grandmother, who would bathe her sometimes. We were with another doctor, and that doctor had to examine her and ask consent-

Heather  23:47

As they should-

Kristina  23:49

As they should. And so he asked consent. And then I said, “because this is for your health and I am here, this is safe, right for him to do.” So then the doctor said to her, “So who can touch you, or who can look at you in these places?” And she said, “My mommy, my daddy, my oma…and the dentist.” 

She said “the dentist” 

and we refer to him as “doctor.” Yes, it is first name, right? So you're like, oh my gosh, we gotta roll that. Back-

Heather  24:23

I need to follow up on that one. 

Kristina  24:26

Not the dentist. Not the dentist. We have a wonderful dentist, by the way. But I should have clarified the doctor.

Heather  24:33

She got because you said the doctor. And you take her to the dentist. So she's in the presence of a doctor, and you're there-

Kristina  24:41

Exactly. So I had taught her those things, and she knew them very well. Other than the confusion about the dentist, it's important to remember. I think we can forget this. Young children, developmentally, they are curious, right? They're curious about their body. They're curious about others bodies. That's developmentally appropriate. You know, a four year old isn't assaulting somebody else, no. Now, if there are more than a couple years difference in age, that can be a problem. Playing doctor when you're younger is a really normal part of growing up and discovering who you are. However, if a 12 year old is playing doctor with a six year old, that's a problem. Yes. So just because a child is exploring and discovering, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's something that you have to have a big intervention about, unless there's, you know, this big age discrepancy.

Heather  25:43

We need to talk about grooming. 

Kristina

Yes, we do. 

Heather

This is a behavior that sex offenders are very, very good at. And they are very charming. And they gain access to our children through us. Because they groom our child and they groom us as well, which is a scary thing to even think about. So let's talk about what that looks like and what some of those red flags might be. And really it's anyone who is seeking access to your child and privacy. It's those two things. They want access to your child and they want privacy. And anybody who is seeking that really should make us question, “Huh? Why?” Because, really, if someone is offering to babysit frequently, “Oh, you go out. You have a night out. I'm happy to…” Nobody really is that happy to watch the children. Like there's an intent there, perhaps, that we need to decide what that's about. Are there really lovely people that pay it forward by watching our kids occasionally? Absolutely. And that's a beautiful thing. Are there other people that want access and privacy with our child when we're not there? Also true. So, Kristina, we really want to pay attention to who's paying attention to our children. Yep, and there are so many wonderful people in the world that are helpers and that just love kids. You and I, we love children. We would never do anything to harm a child or to make them feel uncomfortable. However, we also are pretty well versed in how to help parents feel comfortable when we're with their children as well, and that all parents should really think about that. And the access to and the privacy are the things to really go back to and to be able to say, “Oh, no. I'm not comfortable with you taking my child one on one. I'll come with.” And if they say, “No, no, no. You can do that…” that we chase that and say “No, actually, if that is raising our “uh oh”, and it should, it should raise our “uh oh,” because access and privacy and they're not wanting you there, right? That should be the flag: access and privacy, they're the two main things that should make that flag go high. We're waving it high, sky high.

Kristina  28:18

Well, and as the adults, right? We can teach our children their name and their phone number, and we can teach them about tricky people, and we can do all of those things, but we are the grown ups.

Heather  28:37

And we have to stop and ask ourselves, “Does this make sense? Yeah, it doesn't feel right, right? Does it make sense?” And we have to trust our answer in that. Another thing that we really want to clue in too is if someone is using guilt tactics. 

Kristina

Oh, major red flag.

Heather

I've had this with my own daughter. Ava, was about 11 years old, had a friend who was constantly “Can you have a sleepover?” We just didn't do them. Yeah, it's, I'm sure, a byproduct of the work that we've done, right? Stories that we've heard. People do them, and they may be very fine. We're gonna make them safer, hopefully, by having this conversation. You'll know some of the red flags. This parent came over and said, “Please, why can't they have a sleepover? Why?”

Kristina  29:32

Ava's friend's dad.

Heather  29:35

Dad challenging me and almost guilting me into not having her go over there. And it felt all sorts of wrong. And Ava was kind of looking at me like, “I don't want to.” Like her “uh oh” feeling was going crazy. My “uh oh” feeling was going crazy and was verging on anger. And finally, I just had to say, “We don't do sleepovers period.” And it was a big fat silent “period.” We don't do sleepovers. It was almost like I had to “ask and answer” him.

Kristina  30:14

Yes, you did. Because he kept at it.

Heather  30:18

Yes. And that is the piece that we have to stop and go, “What in the world?” As I think of my husband, he would never be motivated to challenge a child's parent in that way. He will not even drive Ava's friends home by himself. I mean, he thinks of these things, probably because he's married to me, your husband probably does as well, right? But these are things we all should be thinking about to keep kids safer.

Kristina  30:46

And what you just said about Travis, right? Not driving Ava's friends home, you know, alone, right? That's the kind of thing that we as the adults need to be doing, right? 

Heather  30:58

So that, well, it protects the child and it protects us.

Kristina  31:00

Yep, our behavior is above reproach. That's a two-way street. Yep. And so we need to think about those things. Because, although it maybe would be more convenient or something else, it's not setting up the situation for everyone to feel safe, right? So when we think about grooming, and we think about access and privacy, and if an individual is just paying a lot of special attention to our particular child, or a child, we need to be asking ourselves: does that make sense? And you had said that before, does that make sense? And clueing into our “uh oh” feeling. The other thing we need to pay attention to is if our child says, “I don't want to have that babysitter anymore.” That's a big one.

Heather  31:50

Oh, we listen that.

Kristina  31:53

Or “I don't want to play soccer anymore.”

Heather  31:57

Or “I don't want to sit on Uncle so and so’s lap.” 

Kristina  32:03

Yes. And this is something that's so hard to talk about, right?

Heather  32:08

But it's so good that we're talking about it. We need to pull the curtain back on it, and get to a place where we have more consent in our world, yes, where we have more safety in our world and where we have a much higher regard for one another's bodies,

Kristina  32:26

It's important, right? To know the people that your child is hanging out with, so volunteer at school-

Heather  32:34

Of any age. Yeah, because when they get older, if there are adults that are providing things to them to want them to have to be at their place…Again, you go back to access and privacy. Why do they always want to be at this older person's place? Chase that “why.” Fly the red flag.

Kristina  32:56

I love that. We don't intend to have anybody become paranoid or alarmist, right? Like there's danger everywhere. Be aware. Don't be paranoid. There are many, many beautiful people in this world, and there are also many people that harm children.

Heather  33:16

Two weeks ago, I had a parent reach out to me that has come to our parenting classes and sent me a text and said, “Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you taught me in your classes.” She has a three year old in care who reported that someone made her feel uncomfortable with how she's handling her body.

Kristina  33:46

That's what we're talking about, right? No parent ever wants to hear it. Ever. It's devastating to think. 

Heather  33:53

Way more devastating is for that child to become four, yeah and become five-

Kristina  33:58

And have never said anything.

Heather  34:00

Have never said anything. Had perhaps something continued to happen. And to have to carry that.

Kristina  34:08

Communicating to our children that it is never, ever their fault, when somebody interacts with them, touches them in a way that they are not because children do that.

Heather  34:21

They want to believe that they're at fault for everything: parents’ divorces, being touched in a way that's inappropriate, fights that occur between siblings or parents. They're so egocentric. They make everything about them. So they just naturally go to “this was my fault.” It is not their fault, never their fault.

Kristina  34:43

So what a tragic thing to hear from that parent, right? And yet, I really hope that she felt empowered by having had these conversations with her child, having given her child the sense of safety and agency that she could come and report that

Heather  35:09

She had clearly done the beautiful groundwork to have that child say, “I'm not comfortable there. I'm not comfortable with this.”

Kristina  35:18

You know, something else that is all too common. You know, there are these darling, like backpacks and things like that, that have children's names.

Heather  35:26

Get them monogrammed right? Don't put their whole name on it, right? It would way too easy to like, “Hey, little Kristina, yeah, your mommy. I know your mom. I know your mom, sweetie. I'm gonna bring you to her. She asked me to come pick you up.” “Oh, well, they knew my name.” No. Right?

Kristina  35:45

So don't put names on things. Now, you have to label their jacket right? Inside. Not on the outside. Things like that. Their water bottle as they're headed off to school. That's fine. But we don't advertise a child's name to everyone. It's just not as safe. So if you need to put something on that backpack, you can put “explorer” or “adventurer,” whatever, but not their name. That's just a little concrete thing to remember when you're out. Because, boy, they're darling, but it's not good. 

Heather  36:20

Let's talk about what we say. And I guess we can go back to the example of the dad that was really kind of pressuring me. And thought that that was going to work, that I could just say to him, “I'm not comfortable with that.” Right? “I'm just not comfortable with that. We don't do sleep overs, so I'm just not comfortable with that.” Let's all get really comfortable with saying that directly, clearly, with some intensity to it. I'm just not comfortable with that

Kristina  36:57

period. No need to explain, no need to justify

Heather  37:01

and it's not. I don't know if I'm comfortable with that, because that sounds like hope, right? “I'm not comfortable with that.”

Kristina  37:08

Did that parent ever ask for another sleepover? 

Heather

No.

Kristina

Message received. 

Heather  37:16

And here's the thing: I don't know, what happens in someone else's home, behind their closed doors. We want to make sure our anxiety is under control. We want to make sure that we have reconciled within ourselves. We have practiced. Go to your village. Practice with one another, having this conversation. Go for a walk in nature, right? All of those endorphins. Let that bring calm. Let that bring our mood up in the midst of a challenging topic. If we practice, we'll be more confident. What we don't want to do is go in with a face of uncertainty and a face of “Oh, this is something that should scare us.” No. We want to be the “captain of the ship” on this. We want to be certain. The voice of certainty. The voice of security. The voice of “you've got this. I will teach you. I will teach you.”

Kristina  38:21

Yeah, we don't want to use scare tactics. We don't want to have children flooded with anxiety over this. We are empowering them with skills they will use their whole life. And we are not just talking about girls. No, we we've

Heather  38:36

talked about our girls because you have Grace and I have Ava my youngest. But this was the same thing for my boys, the same exact conversations: How do you stay safe? How do you not fall into the trap of a tricky person? How do you recognize your “uh oh” feeling? What do you do when you feel it? How do you communicate that you need help?

Kristina  39:00

Because it's not just boys or girls, it's not just men or women, it's all of us that we are here to support each other. And we are also here to honor and respect our feeling, our children’s feeling, and move forward with that confidence to say “You might be a perfectly nice person. I'm saying no.” I would way rather err on the side of saying “no” and potentially offending an adult, than entering a situation where I don't feel good about it.

Heather  39:37

I think it's important that we talk about, what if our child comes to us and discloses something? It's the moment to breathe big time. And it's the moment to say, “You are so brave, so brave. And I am so glad you came to me. We are in this together. I'm so proud of you. You belong to me. I belong to you. The same team. This is not your fault. We’ll figure this out, right?”

Kristina  40:09

If your child discloses to you and shares that they were harmed by somebody, maybe it was somebody at your church, maybe it was a coach from a team, maybe it was somebody in your own family, you never want to diminish that and say, “Oh, but they would never hurt they would never hurt you. No, they love you.” Nope. It's a time to really support that child. Believe them. Children do not make these things up. 

Heather  40:36

And sometimes those things come out of our mouth when we know they shouldn't. So if it does, you can take it back and be like, “You know that came out, and that is not what I meant.” I still do that with kids that we work with. I hear something come out of my mouth. I'm like, that's not what I meant to say. I didn't think that was gonna sound that way, right? Not about this topic, right? But anything, yeah, if something comes out of our mouth that we think, “Oh, yikes. That is not what I intended to say.” Just take responsibility for it. Take it back and do it over, right?

Kristina  41:08

You don't have to be a perfect. We all do it. None of us are.

Heather  41:12

Absolutey. So if a child discloses, it's really important for us to say there are local agencies that you tap into. You want to affirm your child's bravery and their courage and align with them and say that they've done the right thing and that you will help them. Yes, and then help might be you go to your local Children's Advocacy Center. You make the phone call. You set up an appointment, because there are professionals that do this and do it so well. And they really mitigate what could be a real scary situation and response. And we want to let them do that work,

Kristina  41:55

Right. Because they're trained to do that. First of all, if your child discloses something to you, it's perfectly normal to feel completely devastated, absolutely this is a horrible thing. No parent wants to hear this ever, ever. And yet we need to, just like you said, receive that with assuring them that we love them no matter what, that we are so proud of them. That it is not their fault. And it can be tempting to want to question-

Heather  42:24

Really, what we need to do is listen. And reassure. Listen to what they're telling us. It's important for us to remember, as adults, we lower our anxiety by talking about things, but talking about things for kids and peppering with questions and going back to it raises their anxiety. It's very different for them than it is for us. And the other thing to remember is we have our adult cognitions. We have our adult knowledge, and it is hard for us to ever go back to that child way, because we have our life experiences. They walk with us every day. But I've heard kids retell things. I've heard my own children retell very benign stories, and I think I witnessed that right. If I heard that story without having seen it take place, I don't think I would have put those two things together. That is not the picture that I conjured up in my mind. It's not to say our children aren't accurate in these moments, but it is a caution to say, Don't go too far down any road. Leave that to the professionals who are skilled in doing that work, because as our heart rate goes up, as our panic goes up, our kids feel that, and they know us well enough to know that's what's happening. Yeah, and they may clam up, and they may decide my parent can't handle it. I can't tell them they can't handle it,

Kristina  44:01

right? We need to reassure them. It is our job to keep them safe that again, we love them. We're proud of them. They're so brave.

Heather  44:10

And there are helpers. There are helpers that we call in these situations.

Kristina  44:14

Whoa, Heather, this has not been easy. 

Heather  44:16

No. We had spontaneously burst into tears a couple of times.

Kristina  44:20

This topic is one that many of us avoid, kind of at all costs.

Heather  44:26

But as parents, we need to go there.  

Kristina  44:29

Yes. And I'm so proud of all of us for diving in, for tackling this really, really difficult topic, because it's so important. 

Heather  44:42

And if you are the parent that is like: “I need to do this. I want to do this. No one ever did this for me. I don't have the first clue on how to do it,” go to the show notes. Get Pattie Fitzgerald's books. Listen. I'm sure she's been interviewed on TV. And podcasts. Get all the information. Educate yourself. Knowledge is power. Prepare yourself. Talk with your village. 

Kristina  45:09

Yep, talk to your village. We are in this together. And you can do all of these things, right? Your child doesn't have their name in their backpack. You're super aware, and your child—it can still happen. So preparing yourself, preparing your child as best you can, and then whatever comes, handling it together. 

Heather

Handling it together. 

Kristina

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I'm Kristina.

Heather  45:43

And I'm Heather. And we're so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina  45:47

Until next time…

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails! The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather  46:05

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

Kristina  46:13

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather  46:25

The ODC Network's vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.