E42: The Challenges and Triumphs of Leading a Special School: A Conversation with Debbie O'Neil

In this episode of the Growth in Educational Leadership Podcast, I interview Debbie O'Neil, the principal of Scoil Eoin, a special school in Crumlin.  Debbie shares her journey from aspiring journalist to educational leader, discusses the challenges facing special education, particularly in light of government policies on inclusion, and advocates for the importance of tailored educational environments for children with mild general learning disabilities. 

She also emphasises the importance of community, warmth, and understanding in fostering a supportive educational setting.

TIMESTAMPS

• 00:53 Debbie O'Neil's Journey to Leadership
• 02:14 Challenges and Changes in Special Education
• 03:51 The Debate on Inclusion
• 06:02 Leadership and Staff Wellbeing
• 11:23 Hiring for Empathy and Respect
• 15:42 The Future of Special Education
• 25:07 Student Transformation and Achievements
• 25:57 Restorative Practices in Education
• 27:05 Challenges in Post-Primary Education
• 27:45 Advocacy for Special Education
• 32:56 Teacher Burnout and Self-Doubt
• 36:15 The Importance of Inclusion
• 44:36 Open Invitation to Experience Special Schools
• 47:28 Conclusion and Final Thought

Contact Debbie at principal@scoileoin.ie. 

Transcript

You are very welcome to this week's episode of the Growth in Educational Leadership Podcast. I'm very excited to be joined with a lovely leader that I've known for the last few months, connected again on Instagram. Debbie O'Neil and Debbie was one of our speakers at the Lead Together events

late last year, and I'm very excited to be able to share her story on the podcast and all about her leadership of a special school. She's principal of school owned in Kremlin, which is a special school, and she's going to tell us all about what's in store and the fears for the mild general learning schools in Ireland.

So you're very welcome to the podcast Debbie today. 

Thanks so much, Orla. It's really lovely to be here and I love to talk about special ed delighted to be given the opportunity. 

Brilliant. Thank you. Maybe you could tell us, I have a lot of aspiring leaders listening to the podcast.

Could you tell us a little bit about [00:01:00] your experience getting to where you are today? 

I come from a family of teachers, so it was, always something that was in the back of my head, but never really what I dreamed of being. I always wanted to be a journalist, so a foreign correspondent and , didn't get those points to do that in the leaving, and went on and did an earth.

Degree and then I did my degree in German and history and I just, I absolutely love the German language. It was the next step. Then when I came outta college was figuring out what to do. So it went and did the H dip and I went to Australia. Then for a couple of years, came back.

Absolutely stone broke Orla, not one red scent in my back pocket. And I was subbing in a tiny little national school down at home. I'm from Kilder and there was a visiting teacher there and she said, God, I know a place in Kremlin. They're always looking for teachers. So up I went, and that was 25 years ago this [00:02:00] year.

And yeah, here I am. So 25 years in SLO and three, yeah, this is my fourth year as principal. 

Wow, I actually didn't know that. How long you are a principal within the school, have you, what have you seen? What changes have you seen over those four years? 

Yeah. So look, I suppose before I took over as principal, we could sense that a change was coming.

I was on the board of management before I became principal, so an awful lot of things were being discussed on the board of management. We were being approached. By the department , they wanted to open an autism school across the road from us, and we were being approached to take that on. We didn't want to, maybe I'll go back a little bit just for people who maybe aren't aware of how special Ed works with designation, first of all special schools are primary schools. So even though most of our teachers in here would be secondary trained teachers like myself you must be employed [00:03:00] by the primary branch. So because of that, then we'd all be say INTO members and that kind of thing. But we would be designated as mild general learning disability.

So our students would have an IQ of between 50 and 69, 79 for the borderline kids. And then there's 29 of our schools across the country. But there are also then schools designated for moderate learning disability. Severe and profound learning disability. And then you have newer schools for autism and complex needs, and you would have, the schools for the visually impaired, for the hearing impaired.

So there's loads of different designations under the one branch of special school, but we are also incredibly different. And I suppose what's been happening over the last five years. Is the debate on inclusion has. Transpired to be that the department [00:04:00] now believe that the road towards inclusion should mean that all children are going to their local school, which absolutely we should all be trying to get to that and that the special schools.

Will only be for the children with the most complex need because in their view, with the new level two programs, with the resourcing they're claiming is in primary schools and post-primary schools, they should be able to cope with the mild, the moderate, the. Least autistic students and they'll be grand in those settings, and we will become a setting just for those with the most complex need.

So that has been a huge challenge over the past few years, especially over the past year and a half for us here, where it is very much on the cards that is where the government are going [00:05:00] and we are. Feeling we're very much on our last legs here as remaining a school for just children with mild general learning disability.

And look, it's hugely distressing for all of us who've worked here all our lives. And the thing about Skullen is Orla. It's the most, oh, it makes me emotional. It's the most beautiful community to work in because we have just such a group of dedicated. Individuals working here from our caretaker right the way up to our chairperson of our board of management, who believe absolutely in what we do, who know that we make a difference, who are not believed when we say we're making a difference.

And for us to think that we're not going to be able to cater for those children in our care or those children we're yet to meet into the future is it's really hard to swallow, to be honest. 

Absolutely. It's And what's that to be the leader at the top of all [00:06:00] of that? 

Yeah, look that's a challenge.

Absolutely a challenge. When I first took on the job, I suppose it can bite me in the bum sometimes by how I'm a very open, honest, transparent person, and that's just the nature of who I am, and I find it quite difficult. Not to be that. And there are certain things that, of course, as a leader, you need to keep close to your chest or keep within your, maybe your yourself and your deputy.

But I made a promise to everyone, all the staff when I came on as principal, that I would always keep them. Aware and informed of important things that were going to affect them. And I have done that and I think that makes it easier. I'm not embarrassed to say actually, and I know they won't mind me sharing, but like the past two years I have had to stand up at staff meetings and say.

Guys, I need you to trust me here. [00:07:00] I need you to gimme another year. We know that we are under threat and it's a very real threat of a complete and utter change of who we are and what we do. But please don't go anywhere. Please stay. And everybody has and I think some of that really helps in.

Getting buy-in from staff if they know that you have their back and you're really trying to save what they believe in while keeping them informed at every turn as well. I hope so. Anyway, Orla, I don't know. I'm fumbling at this as I go along and hoping that what I'm doing is the right thing, and maybe it's not, but for the moment it feels like the right thing.

I'd feel emotional listening to that because yeah, the sense of psychological safety that you as leader have to provide and are choosing and are aware enough to provide for your staff members and the wider community to be so open and honest with them [00:08:00] and saying, there's shaky ground here for all of us.

Providing that sense of safety while that's there their foundations are rocking. And not to create a sense that by the same time of 

panic. 

Panic, yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. That's the line. That's the really tricky line, I think, and I, there are times when I feel a bit panicked and trying to.

Come across that, we're not at the end because we're not, we absolutely are not at the end. And, we will, we will keep going until the very last. But yeah, trying to keep that level of. Hope and that level of let's just keep doing what we're doing so well, and hopefully, the tide will turn for us can be a little bit tricky.

And I think, or that's so important, like the wellbeing of students is to the fore of everything that we do all the time in any school and the wellbeing [00:09:00] framework and how wellbeing is now, inspected and all of that is absolutely at the core of everything, and it should be. But in order to provide a student with a safe, secure, loving, caring environment where they're able to learn.

I would feel very strongly that it's my job to provide that for staff because how can a teacher, an SNA, marry in our cleaner? How can anyone emit a feeling of safety and wellbeing and security? I if we don't feel that within ourselves in our own work environment? So I take that very seriously.

If that makes sense. 

And coming from a German teacher, post-primary, very different setting to what you're speaking about right now. What equipped you to be able to do that? 

God. What equipped me to be able to do that? Look again, I think it [00:10:00] comes down to just. I really like people, like I'm a people person, right?

Yes. I'm a teacher, but at the core of my own self, I'm just this really honest person who likes people. I like, that's why I love podcasts. I like stories. I like. Hearing about people's lives. I like being invested in people's lives. Like I love chatting to parents and so it's just really important to me that and that's a really big learning curve when you become principal because there are a lot of things you do that people don't like and you have to seriously sit in that uncomfortable feeling an awful lot, and that can be hard.

I'm getting a little bit better at that, but that's certainly hard. But I suppose. I would think that I'm very respectful and very nonjudgmental, and I just really think it's important to mind people and treat them with [00:11:00] respect and kindness and care, and that's how I hope that we run our school. 

I think it's coming across very strongly in that you're. Presence in your leadership and probably very much your sense of character and how you're hiring and you're, you have a special lens for the kind of people that you want within your organization as a school, you absolutely. 

Yeah I, that's really, that's such an important piece because there is a type of person who will be able to work here and stay here. And that has to be driven by empathy and respect and I suppose, a knowledge of diversity. And I think all of those things are what I would be looking for when I hire someone.

And it's really important to me that you fit in not only with the children that we have, but with the lovely [00:12:00] community and the values that we have as a school. And I think. If you asked, and this is not coming from me, this has come from, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, I'm only the third principal in the history of our school and we're 50 years old, Sean Buckley set up our school with a vision.

And Dan O'Leary brought on that vision. And I hope that vision and that value is just something that I am, bringing us on a bit more towards. But I think if you asked anyone working here, what are our values, we would all say the same thing. And if I feel that those values are not the values of.

Somebody who's on a fixed term contract I would be looking to not renew that, so that's hugely important to us in here. 

And what clues 'cause I, I am very aware that sometimes words fail us when we when Yeah. When we're sitting on the interview panel. And it's a more of a subtle feeling and atmosphere that you get when somebody walks into [00:13:00] a room. How can you put words on, you said that knowledge of diversity when you start there. Yeah. Is there anything more you can add to that there? What sense are you getting from 

people? Yeah. I think there is a way of speaking about children with warmth that can't be disguised.

So most of our kids in here are teenagers, right? And so the very first thing you have to do is you have to like teenagers. They get an awfully bad wrap around the place. Teenagers we love teenagers in here. They do. They drive you mad. Absolutely. I have two teenagers at home drive me absolutely insane.

But do we love them and the way they think and the way they grow and the potential that they show and the quirks that they have and the moods they have and all of that? Yes, we do. And I think there is a warmth when you're talking about. Children that you have taught previously that [00:14:00] can't really be disguised in a person.

And it's funny, Orla, because we have, I, we've never really had a problem with getting staff here, and we've never really had a problem with keeping staff because once you come in. I think that warmth gets embodied in you as well. And then, so there are times where I look at people in an interview and think, Jesus Christ, am I gonna take this risk?

And I, I have yet to have taken the risk and it to backfire on me because we would do an. Awful lot of work with new, with Nq Ts. We'd spend an awful lot of time chatting to them, talking them through the types of children. Somebody might say something and it may be just that the teacher hasn't heard that before or had that experience of some kind of little quirk before.

And we would, I would like to think that outside of the Dred process, that we would have a [00:15:00] very good solid mentoring program in here of our own. And the same as I say to parents all the time, look, when your child comes in here, we will push them to be academically the very best that they can be.

But we will put our arms around them and love them at the same time. And I'd like to think that's what we do with new staff as well. 

And it'd be an awful shame if that wasn't to continue. 

Oh, listen, I, it's like I have cried it. It is heartbreaking and it's such a difficult thing, orla to get right in the language that we use.

I am consumed by fear about how I speak of this, because I never want to make out that we don't want to have a provision for students who are really complex in their need and deserve a school place. We believe everybody deserves a place, [00:16:00] but what we can't do. Is just because the child with a mild general learning disability is presumed to be not disabled enough that we send them into an environment that can't cater for them, that they're not able for, that we take their stability, their ability to achieve a way just because.

We don't understand it, so we are not asking for, we've managed with the basic of resources for 25 years. We're not asking for anything extra. We're just asking, we're a tiny cohort of schools. We don't even cost the government that much money. In fact, we save them so much money because of.

Every child in my school would be entitled to an SNA. That's 144 SNAs. I only employ 18. I'm saving the government. All of that, we are saving our kids money from dropping [00:17:00] out In second year. We are saving the prison service an awful lot of money by having these kids stay until sixth year going on to be functioning and contributing members to society.

So we're just asking to let us be. Just let us continue the success we've had because it's proven. And if we could just be allowed to remain as we are, we will continue to be successful into the future. But it's, or I'm getting nowhere. I've tried every angle and we're getting nowhere.

I know, we talked about this before the lead together event is.

It doesn't really hitch it until it's nearly in your face. So I'm thinking of teachers in mainstream schools that I often think, I think I've taught one student with Down Syndrome in my time teaching and 

yeah. 

I never, never questioned that. And it was, I was only a substitute teacher in the school at that time.

But what's the potential for what could happen here if your schools are. If your [00:18:00] children are amalgamated and are mainstreamed. Yeah. 

Yeah, that's, and thank you for asking that question and letting me actually say that because, look, primary schools, we used to have quite a large cohort of we're bi located here.

We have a junior school and a senior school. Junior school used to be our primary school. Senior signers side is Colo to Owen, which is our senior school. We have a only a tiny cohort of national school students left because I suppose. Teachers in primary school and children are just hanging on that little bit more into the primary when you have a mild general learning disability.

So your disability, your vulnerability, your. Lack of ability to hold onto friends, to interact with your peers. It's probably only coming to the 4, 10, 11, 12, right? By the time a child is hitting post-primary age, the gap has widened so much. So you have a 13-year-old probably functioning cognitively at a seven or [00:19:00] 8-year-old going into a secondary environment and.

Going into the mainstream classes of the secondary environment. So you now have a child with a cognitive ability of 62 say. And. There's no mild class for that child in the mainstream because there are only 14 1 4 post-primary mild classes left in the entire country. So there's no mild class. So you're talking about them going in to the general population, not being able to.

Nevermind. Follow a timetable, go to a locker, figure out what they need for each class, not being able to possibly even find their way around the building, nevermind where they're supposed to be at a certain time with a certain amount of books and the overwhelm. It makes me quite breathless because I can imagine the overwhelm and the [00:20:00] sense of panic and isolation that those kids feel in that environment is absolutely enormous, and two things happen.

They become the bold lads. At the back of the class, right? Because it is much better to have people laugh with you than to laugh at you, right? So you become the lad who makes everybody laugh. You get thrown outta mats, you get thrown outta history. You know you're on a reduced day because you've been suspended three times.

Those lads will be gone by second year. They'll drop out, right? Because they're just not able to cope. They'll be, they'll drop out or they'll be expelled, or you become those anxious know ability to see yourself in a positive light teenager who refuses to go to school. And that can result in lifelong anxiety.

And you'll have teachers in the mainstream and all they want to do is help these [00:21:00] kids all they want to do. But Orla, if you are teaching an honors German third year class, you do not have the time to be at the same time in the same room teaching a level two student. Level two Spanish. There isn't even a level two modern language.

So you, they're all in together. The teacher's doing the absolute best she can with 28 kids in front of her loads of high achieving, low achieving, middle achieving kids, and she's trying to do the best for them all. You can't get to those kids. You just can't get to them, and no matter how good the teachers are, there is not the time or the resourcing in a mainstream post primary to cater to mild or moderate children.

The autism children will have. The ones who need a class will be in a class. Remember, the teacher is still probably teaching two or three autistic students in the mainstream [00:22:00] class. So there's those needs and there's the needs of our guys and what the department are saying are sure. What why wouldn't they be?

Grant? Sure. We've made the level two learning program. And what we say to that is the level two learning program is the most wonderful program for what it was initially made to be, and that was for high, moderate to low mild children. And now you are getting borderline mild children. Being told that they need to do a level two when with the right scaffolding and help, they could easily get through a junior cycle.

So we have all of our graduates coming out with a leaving certified level four. And we do that because we are experts at scaffolding and minding and making sure that people are being pushed just at the right level. But we are hearing then. It's a victim of our own success. We're hearing sure they can get a level [00:23:00] four with you, won't they be grand in a level two in the mainstream?

And it's capping somebody at a level and saying, it's like before women could never do a master's degree. 'Cause they were capped at a certain, this is capping. Children at a level and saying, no higher will you go because we have a perception that you're not able. And how dare anyone say that about somebody with a disability?

How dare they? And that's what makes me infuriated. It's infuriating to limit a child's ability. Because you don't know and you haven't spent and I'm not talking about mainstream teachers here, I'm talking about the department because they haven't spent the time getting to know what these children are actually capable of.

And that is not inclusion, the whole thing that they're trying to, or that they're selling this as yeah. Is actually contrary to what you are experiencing with the scaffolding and the extra support to help them to get to the level that they have the potential to get [00:24:00] to. 

Yeah. 

By removing all of that scaffolding and letting them, and leaving and or that isn't 

even mentioning the core of inclusion, which is belonging and having friends.

You can't be included somewhere where you feel consistently isolated and left out, you simply can't. Those two definitions are the absolute opposite of each other, so we need to start talking about inclusion as a place where you feel that you belong and you have your tribe around you, as opposed to a geographical location that's near your house.

And how do you know that your students feel included and belong? 

Number one, they'll tell you when. When you ask, they'll tell you when they don't feel it, which is wonderful for us because then we can work at changing that and parents will tell you the difference that they see in them. From a [00:25:00] few months of being with us as opposed to where they came from.

And orally, you see it in like the choir and the football team. Like we've, the lads gone off to Limerick today to the All Ireland, five aside football championships that they would never get to participate in a mainstream school. We won the choir competition last year. With at least five kids who definitely can't sing a note but who think they're Pavarotti because it's about just taking part and we're hugely proud of all of them.

So I think the really good thing here as well is, and we are blessed with our numbers and the ability to give that time to a child because. We only have small classes, and over the last three years we, we are, we're in our third year now of our restorative practice journey. So I don't know if Michelle Sto from Connect rp, beautiful, gorgeous program. Beautiful, [00:26:00] gorgeous woman, and all her, Sarah and Rachel and all her people, she has working with her. And so we have really changed the way we operate in here over the past three years in that we'd spent the first 20 minutes of school and the last 15 minutes of school, we do a in the morning, we do a checkout in the evening, and it's become a really important way for us.

To gauge how our students are feeling, who might need a little bit of extra time with somebody that day. And it's really changed the way in us, being aware of that child who may need a little bit of extra support emotionally so that they can then go on during that day to access the curriculum.

When you were sharing the practicalities of what may happen, what struck me was that there would be a crisis at post-primary level. Yeah. And actually I didn't really understand that until you started to share that because of the age. Group of many students, they will be going into a post-primary [00:27:00] school.

I considered it because I'm a primary school teacher, so I look at things with that lens. 

Yep. 

Are there, I know you have a an increasingly growing or you have an increasingly large following on Instagram now. Have you any sense for how many of your following are primary school teachers versus post-primary teachers?

Yeah, most primary. And that is a limitation that I'm not quite, this is wonderful to be speaking of this now for people listening to it because it's a hard bridge to cross, even though I am post-primary and most of my, my, my teachers would be post-primary. Getting the message out to post-primary principals and post-primary teachers has been quite difficult.

We've been trying to fight this through the union, but unfortunately we need to be in the INTO because we're governed by primary legislation. I am trying consistently to speak to T-U-I-A-S-T-I so that they become aware and possibly spread the word that way. But yeah it's [00:28:00] something that, if you think that there are, what, 3,500 kids in those 29 schools of the mild, you add what might be in moderate schools as well.

All of those children are expected now to be educated in a mainstream post primary. And, is there space. Is there. There is also the issue now with the NCSE document, which came out in November, which is changing the way that we can do an SNA review. And what that has told us is that. If you are in a mainstream school and you are worried that you need an extra SNA, for example, in your autism class, that the S, the NCSE will come in and do a full school review now and most likely take that extra SNA that is needed in your autism class from your mainstream class.

So not only will our kids be in a mainstream environment. They most likely won't have [00:29:00] SSNA access either. So that again, puts a huge onus on the class teacher and a huge, onus on the school as to how they are going to provide for these kids. And the problem there again, Orla, is that. The government has have said the minister, I got a letter from the minister for special ed saying that they're taking a memorandum to government in January.

Hasn't happened yet, or so, we don't know that it has. In order to remove the necessity for access, no. To remove the necessity for a diagnosis. For access to a special school or a special class. So you will have these kids going into the mainstream, not diagnosed with no paperwork. So not only is the mainstream teacher teaching all of these different levels of ability, but they won't know what to teach too because they'll have no paperwork that's [00:30:00] saying what these children are diagnosed as.

When you break it down and you know how the system works, you know how it's supposed to work and the prospect of what they're saying will happen in the future, it's simply ludicrous. 

Yeah, and I think there's two things there. The first thing that strikes me is we need to mobilize post-primary teachers and 

Yeah, 

really a.

See, we'll see what we can do together in terms of the recording here. Yes. So that you get your message out to more primary school teachers and primary. And another thing is, I suppose when we talk about leader voice or teacher voice I don't know of any secondary school principal in Ireland that's on Instagram.

You probably find some of them on. LinkedIn, and doing the things there. But there's that disconnect whereby many of us probably consider you as a primary school teacher when the reality is not the case at all. So I can see how that disconnect happens. We really need to get your message out there [00:31:00] to secondary schools and post-primary leaders.

And I'm willing if anybody out there has any ideas, please contact me. Let me know because it's certainly last year we thought, oh, the way to go on this is media coverage. And look, that's done a no good. We were out there, we were like the pipe piper looking for people to come on board with us.

, I'm not sure it got the word spread much at all. At all. But yeah, to get the message into the post-primary sector is of the utmost importance, and it's like this is happening now. , They've said there'll be consultation about the diagnostic part.

Consultation to me over the years has meant very little, it, it's certainly not given you a couple of weeks to write in and have your views heard. It's, here's a circular I'll give you 24 hours to read it and comment on it if you're a stakeholder and we're going with it anyway. Consultation, I'm not sure what that means anymore, if people just started to realize.

The impact it's going to have on the mainstream post primary, that would be a really solid [00:32:00] place to start. 

Oh I'm so passionate about that and I know I really do believe that the right word for people like yourself is advocacy and advocate and speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves or who don't realize the impact of what's happening out there.

And to mobilize teachers and saying. In five years down the line, I'm going to have this extra cohort of children, talk about a work-life balance and the stress and the pressure Yeah. And the burnout that, that's all going to create

and Orla burnout is such I, that it's such a, I feel it's a bit overused, but I think burnout comes from for me anyway, it comes from going in every day. Doing your absolute best and walking out feeling that you didn't do enough. And I think that is where teachers are getting burned out at the moment. Imagine in a post-primary, imagine going in every day. Knowing that you need to be teaching to all of these [00:33:00] different levels of ability, and by doing that, you were really not reaching anyone.

At their, how do I say it? You are not, you are, you're coming out thinking, do you know what? I could have taught that a bit higher, but I really need to teach that a bit lower. What about the guys in the middle? Did they get what I was talking about? And it's that teachers have this. Innate self-doubt in themselves all the time about, did I do a good job today?

Christ Almighty. Did anybody understand what I was saying in that class? And when you are trying to teach to so many different types of ability with. In the one class, you feel consistently that you're not doing good enough for anyone, and that leads you to stop believing in yourself and to be burned out.

And I really do think that a lot of it comes from us being so hard on ourselves, but we're hard on ourselves because we consistently want to give the best to the students in front of us. And it's not [00:34:00] always possible because the resources for us to do that simply are not there. 

Again, we're doing the best with what we can right now.

Yeah. 

With the tools that we've been given. But in five years down the line, that could be the destination really of the education system. When you have, imagine that the sad talk that goes on there when you have all of these extra challenges, so 

absolutely. Absolutely. And I have, like I actually Orla, I'm a bit embarrassed,

I shouldn't be on Instagram. I'm mortified at being, an Instagram person at all. I genuinely, my friends all laugh at me. I genuinely only went on there because I didn't know how else to connect with people over this issue. And it has been the most wonderful space because everyone has just been so kind.

And, but the teachers who reach out to me. This is what they're consistently saying. They're consistently saying, how do I do better? They're banging their heads against a wall, asking themselves are they doing enough? [00:35:00] And we are doing as best we can, as you said, with what we have, but what we are being given in terms of resourcing, training, the ability of time to plan all of those things.

We are not provided with them enough for us to be able to consistently do an excellent job. And that's a whole other, there's a whole other podcast there, I think. 

Oh, absolutely. And I know when we talked at Lead together, we were talking about teacher wellbeing quite a bit. But then you mentioned about recruitment and I said, oh, there's, I have so many questions, we'll promote this as much as possible because it's here. Now is the time. Yeah. And what if you were to say to people listening to the podcast today, how can they start to take action?

I think the first thing is that just for people, sometimes I think people hear me speak and they think, oh God I don't think I've ever come across a child like that. We all have, every teacher has, right? If you think back to any class you've taught, [00:36:00] think of that kid who. Was sitting there and you knew they just weren't getting it.

You knew they were falling behind. Think of the child who has stopped coming to school after second year because they're really embarrassed, because they just don't know what's going on in a mainstream class. So identify the children that you have. Presumed to be of a milder, moderate, and then imagine them in our school, right?

Imagine them happy and taking part in football and having friends and going on school tours and going on overnight trips and being on the student council. Imagine that for them. And then, you can see the value that we have. And then imagine your school if there weren't places like us.

And I think then if you can just start seeing it in a staff, look, I listened to this one of a, this teacher of a in [00:37:00] a mile. School and she was saying this, did we know that there's not going to be diagnosis anymore? Did we know that mild schools are being closed? Did we know that moderate schools are possibly going to lose their designation and just start a staff room conversation about.

What might this mean for us? And I think if you can start that conversation, people will soon come around to thinking, Ooh, we need to pause here. We need to ask questions. And we just need to start asking the questions because the more people ask questions, the less likely it is that change will happen really quickly.

Okay. Tell me about that last bit. The more we start to ask questions, the less likely it is that things will start to happen quickly. 

I think that there is a belief within the department and within the NCSE, and I don't think these are, I don't think these are. This is not a character assassination of those people, right?

I think they genuinely believe [00:38:00] that we should be on a road towards inclusion. We're being paid by the EU to be on a road towards inclusion. Inclusion is the name of the game. This is how we get there, right? But. I don't think they understand the system that we have at the moment and the value that it has, and by people asking questions, they will need to do a bit more reflection on what it is they're being questioned on.

If you like that is a jumbled up way and I'm making no sense. But in order for someone to stop and say. Hold on now a second. God, that's a good question. Yeah. Okay. What, why are the mild schools working that, that's actually a really good question. Where will those mild kids go? Actually, how will we allocate teachers and SNA to a disability if we no longer have a disability because there's no diagnosis?

So [00:39:00] until we start asking those questions, I'm not sure there have been. Thought of, and we need to ask these so that it's not too late and something is put in place that there are actually no answers for, and we're catching up for the next 20 years.

It's so true. And I think when you were mentioning the fact that every teacher has this story of a student who was sitting in the classroom, the peers , were, middle ability, higher ability, and they just weren't able to access things at that level,

that resonated with me. And as you likely say, it resonates with every teacher whereby, am I fully doing my best for this student? Luckily, I was in learning support at the time, so the majority of the, what she was learning was one-to-one out with me, but she was in a very large class and, yeah, it's just, I think that they're powerful stories as well, and it triggered something in me to say we can all advocate for that student by taking action.

I 

was that student. Were they being invited to the [00:40:00] parties? Let's not think of the, just in terms of the academic, like think of those kids. Did that child in the back of your history class who really couldn't do their homework at all? Were they on any school team? Were they going home late or early every day with a pain in their belly?

Were they asking to be collected? It's all of this thing. Is there life? Is their life fulfilled by being in an environment where they feel that they are less than their peers, and it never is. Orla, their life is fulfilled by being in an environment where they can be themselves and feel valued and feel that every child in here becomes the best at something.

It may only be the best at, I dunno, we have a school dog, so we have one child who's the main school dog handler and he is absolutely the best at handling the school dog, but that's wonderful for him. We have to start thinking of the child in. Fully [00:41:00] rounded human being where they are happy.

And only when they're happy and content and safe and secure and loved can they learn. And that's what we need to be able to say as a society that we at least are offering that to every single child because life is so hard. Being a teenager is so hard. They deserve their schooling to be happy years, and they deserve to look back on it as a place where they belonged.

Yeah it's funny how. I stepped into the academics up when I was thinking, 'cause this is when I'm preparing my clients for mock interviews. I draw attention to the financial inclusion and the social and emotional and inclusion. But actually that's a funny little pattern now whereby I wouldn't have drawn attention or being very aware, again, because I took her out.

One-to-one, but is she invited to the parties? Is she, yeah. Going home with that pain in her stomach,. Yeah. So looking at [00:42:00] that holistic lens of inclusion as well, it's a big responsibility as well, isn't it really

yeah. Do you know? It absolutely is. And I suppose, again, I would say to everybody, like my door would often be knocked on for that kind of thing, debbie, can I come in and talk to you a little bit about. Mary really didn't think she was informed today. I wonder what's going on there? And again, we are so lucky to have the numbers that we can notice. You can't notice when you're in a class of 28. You just can't do that every day. But we actually had AP interviews last week, or Orla and you like this story from your perspective.

And one of the questions was, can you tell me, what you were most proud of in, in Sloan, and we had 10 people who came for interview and I'm I know I'm not speaking out of school because every single one of them said, I am most proud of how our students. Change when they come into us from seeing them [00:43:00] in first year, to seeing them even after a couple of months in first year and how happy and settled they are and when they're not, that we work towards that.

And I think, that was the loveliest, proudest thing for me to hear because. At the end of the day, it's really important. Look, I have a 17-year-old. I hope he does absolutely amazing in his leaving search, and I, in my own way, will hold his teachers accountable for that. But in here, our. We are very proud of our exam results and we really are, but we are most proud of just allowing for that little bit of happiness and that little bit of self-confidence and that little bit of wellbeing to creep into a child and that comes with feeling valued.

That comes with feeling valued. Really nice. And just as we come to the end of the interview today, is there anything else that you'd like to add and share with our listeners? 

I guess it's important and I [00:44:00] actually it, thank you for asking this 'cause I'd forgotten I wanted to say this, but we, so most special schools I know, look, I certainly all the mild schools and we would be a very close group of principals and we'd talk all the time and we'd meet regularly in stuff.

But most primary or most mild schools, we would have a real open door policy here and. We have people coming and going on work experience on, we, we used to be a training center with the guards who'd come and do, because a lot of our kids would come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and there'd be a lot of chaos at home.

So we, we'd be a training ground for guards to come in and spend a couple of weeks with us. And I would love if there is anybody out there who has. Any sort of notion that they would like to teach in a special school or that they would like to come and experience what a special school is I feel sometimes that when you don't know it.

That some first of all, special school, even the words, it's, they're [00:45:00] not the most it's not somewhere that you feel you want to go and spend time in, but they are the most beautiful, lovely, warm, accepting environ. And certainly I won't speak for the other schools. Jesus, I'd be shot. But if anybody would like to come and experience Cullo and, come and have a tour and walk around, we would love to think that teachers of all kinds would be able to see themselves teaching in a special school because it is.

Absolutely still teaching and sometimes there's a misconception of that. But, we teach and we're very proud of how good we are at teaching, and I think that if more people could experience what we do. Not only would there be a better understanding of it so that could filter up through the ranks and maybe there'd be a better understanding of it at the very top.

It would also be lovely to think that people would feel confident in applying for jobs in special schools because they are really [00:46:00] beautiful places to work. 

And if there were any post-primary leaders interested in bearing in mind what we've said, interested in coming to visit, is that something that you would open the doors for them too?

A hundred percent, absolutely. Come one. Come All we love showing off. Who we are and we will always make time for people to come and see us. So yeah. Principal at Sloan IE if anybody wants to send me over an email and again, open door policy we would be delighted. 

Yeah. Just working together, you and them I think is a, yeah.

Is a really powerful, because it's. It's equipping themselves with the awareness of what might happen for their schools and in the future. But if you're opening the door to all teachers, let's invite those as well. 

Yeah, absolutely. Please we'd be delighted. We'd be delighted.

Oh, brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Debbie. And we will. Promote your message and make sure we let as many people know what you were [00:47:00] doing and a wonderful job you're doing for all of your community. And the very best to look forward 

and thank you, Orla. And just to say, since we've gotten to know each other, you've.

Been such a great advocate for me and for us in here as well. And I think the work that you do is hugely important. And I know I was looking through your course the other day. I think it's absolutely wonderful. So anybody, this is not an advertisement, but anybody looking to go that bit further in their career and have the confidence, I think they could do far worse than reaching out to you.

So we really appreciate everything that you're doing. Thank you. 

Thanks very much.