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Ever Onward Podcast
The Ever Onward Podcast is your go-to business podcast, offering engaging discussions and diverse guests covering everything from business strategies to community issues. Join us at the executive table as we bring together industry leaders, experts, and visionaries for insightful conversations that go beyond the boardroom. Whether you're an entrepreneur or simply curious about business, our podcast provides a well-rounded experience, exploring a variety of topics that shape the business landscape and impact communities. Brought to you by Ahlquist.
Ever Onward Podcast
From Boise's Rebirth to National Leadership: Governor Dirk Kempthorne's Journey | Ever Onward - Ep. 87
What happens when you refuse to accept "impossible"?
Governor Dirk Kempthorne's remarkable journey from transforming a decimated downtown Boise into a thriving urban center to managing one-fifth of America's land as Secretary of the Interior demonstrates the extraordinary impact of visionary leadership.
At 33, Kempthorne ran for mayor of Boise despite political advisors calling it "the dumbest idea we've ever heard." Downtown was so devastated locals called it "Lebanon" – nothing but gravel parking lots where historic buildings once stood. Yet Kempthorne saw potential where others saw ruins. "Before we can have brick and mortar, we need to build cooperation," he explains, describing how he refused to fire opponents and instead built collaborative relationships that ultimately revitalized the city.
This philosophy of determined but inclusive leadership defined his subsequent roles as U.S. Senator, Idaho Governor, and Secretary of the Interior under President Bush. Whether visiting troops in Somalia after Black Hawk Down, vetoing legislation to secure life-saving transportation funding, or challenging Pentagon restrictions to visit Idaho National Guard troops in Iraq, Kempthorne consistently put service above politics.
Perhaps most revealing is how he's facing his current battle with cancer. Rather than retreating into privacy, he went public to encourage others to get tested, approaching treatment with characteristic optimism: "I intend to be a victor, not a victim." Even during chemotherapy, he focuses on productivity rather than discomfort.
For anyone wondering if one person can truly make a difference, Kempthorne offers this wisdom: "If you have an idea in you, something planted that idea. When others say it's not a good idea, but you have it – you may not listen to those. And if it's positive, pursue it." His story isn't just about political achievement but about the transformative power of vision, determination, and unwavering commitment to service.
Listen now to this inspiring conversation with one of Idaho's most consequential leaders, whose impact extends far beyond state borders to the nation itself.
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Today on the Ever Onward podcast, we have Governor Dirk Kempthorne. He is truly a living legend in Idaho, has served this community, our state and this country. It's going to be so wonderful to catch up with him and talk with him about all of the things that he is doing and has done for the state. Graduated from the University of Idaho with a degree in political science in 1975. He was a governor of Idaho Before that was the mayor of Boise and we talk a little bit about that and his vision and change for the city of Boise. He served as a senator in the United States Senate before coming back and being governor and ultimately served as the secretary of the interior under George Bush. Most importantly, this guy is one of the greatest leaders, kind, wonderful men, human beings on the planet and it'll be an honor to catch up with Governor Kempthorne today and talk about how he's doing. This is going to be fun today. I appreciate it. I'm really excited. I've admired you for so long and I don't, is it? Secretary governor?
Speaker 2:I'm back to governor, you're back to governor, but I'm also Dirk.
Speaker 1:I know. But when you've been mayor of Boise, governor awesome dirk, I know. But when you've been mayor boise, you're governor kemp thorn, which is what I, that's what I, and then you know. And then secretary um, you know, I was reading, getting ready for this, your bio and I just I don't know that there's anyone I've ever had on that's got the depth of leadership and experience.
Speaker 1:I want to start with a quick story, governor. We did a little bit of work in downtown Boise and this was when you were the Secretary of the Interior and you came back and gave a speech and I never heard your discussion of Boise, because you have so much leadership and history and you've done so many things that you spent an hour at it was a city club or something talking about the history of when you are responsible for Boise being what it is, so in the, in a storied career of like making an impact in the nation, as the state. But I really today I can't wait to dive into everything because you've done so much to affect this place and so it's an honor to have you on. Thank you so much. Well, may I reciprocate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an honor to be on and what you've done, Tommy, I mean from an emergency room physician where you have helped people in crisis, you've brought them back and then you've gone on and you now have done so many things to make this a great place to live in Boise and in Idaho.
Speaker 1:Well, you're kind, but you're one of my heroes, oh, bless your heart. One of my heroes, thank you, and so I'm really glad to have you on. Everyone knows you that listens to this, everyone knows what you've done. But I want to, if you think back now on, can we go back to the Boise days? Sure, because I want, for people who haven't heard the story of 8th Street and vision and what you did, can we start there? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, because there's so many things. I in preparation again. I thought I could go. You know we only have an hour, so I want to make sure I get it all in, but I think it's a story many people haven't heard. Can you start there for us? Sure.
Speaker 2:Boise, which we now know as this beautiful, thriving, award-winning city, was not that. I was 33 when I first thought of running for mayor and I went to some of the best political thinkers and the message that they told me was that's the dumbest idea we've ever heard of. Nobody's ever been successful. Nobody's turned around Boise it's known as quote Lebanon, because it's just destroyed. It's nothing but gravel parking lots.
Speaker 1:They had torn everything down right.
Speaker 2:They'd torn magnificent treasures down.
Speaker 1:So great old historic buildings and the idea was to do a mall right.
Speaker 2:They wanted to put a big box, a one million square foot box, in the heart of downtown and all of the retailers said we're not coming. So anyway, I took the advice and ran for mayor, because they said if you ever want to run for anything statewide, you'll never be successful. I wasn't going to run statewide. My purpose I had two little children, patricia, and I had these two little kids, heather and Jeff, and if I could do something that in the community where those two little kids, our daughter and son, had been born, to get the city to the potential that it was supposed to be, that was my motivation.
Speaker 2:I and we started turning things around. My first trip, tommy, was to New York City and I met with the retailers and they said if you're serious, we'll come, but if it's another false start, we won't touch you. For 20 years you are the most underserved retail facility community in the United States. And I said we're serious. And I had one Saturday. I went downtown I think it was actually Sunday morning and I just walked around that deserted downtown and I said a prayer that we could find the way that this would become the city that it should be, was intended to be, and then I sat down on one of the telephone poles.
Speaker 2:It was just, you know that's how they lined out the gravel parking lots and Chuck Winder came up, oh wow, and Chuck sat next to me. He said can I join you? I said absolutely, and we just, we commiserated, and then we said a prayer together and but anyway, so we then went ahead and released.
Speaker 1:I was going to tell you I found when I was, when we were doing 8th and Main, I found someone sent me and I wish I could find the file, if I can't I'll send it to you VHS video camera and had gone through the city, probably during this time in early days of you know, and took video of the streets and it's shocking. I mean it's like, oh my goodness it was nothing there, nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny, tommy, what I went through when I was running for mayor, because I took on the establishment. I mean, I took on the incumbents and those folks that were downtown. And I remember one time I was coming and I turned the corner there on Idaho and I started walking up and there was a shopkeeper who was out sweeping his sidewalk and he immediately went inside and pulled the curtain down. It was like the Old West, you know. Here came Gary Cooper. So, anyway, it was like the old West. Here came Gary Cooper.
Speaker 2:Anyway, it was rough and tumble, but once the election was over, those who supported me wanted me to fire everybody in the redevelopment agency and I said, no, we're not going to do that, because if the first thing I do is to remove those folks, then what I've done is establish our critics who will do everything to make sure we fail. And I said before, we can have brick and mortar, we need to build cooperation. And so I blended the two, I tied our fates together and that's how we began to move forward. And it was, you know, step by step. Winston Moore, yeah, 8th Street Marketplace was the one bright spot and that's where I announced my candidacy for mayor and I said Winston, may I use this? And he said absolutely, we've become dear friends. You know, he's 100 years old now, I know.
Speaker 1:And that guy he's just. It wasn't another hero example of just a community guy who just never stopped, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But I would, I'd call people, I'd call Larry Leisure. I said, Larry, I'm going to go to the legislature and welcome them to their capital city, because everybody was anti-Boise. And I said, no, no, this is their capital city. And I said, but I need to know the Alexander building, will it be completed? Will you do this? I can't, even if you're 93%, I'm not going to mention it. He goes no, sir mayor, you tell them it will be done. And we did it.
Speaker 2:And that was the beginning to start, begin to build, the fact that things are happening and we're going to build this thing are happening and we're going to build this thing. And then, time after time, I remember at 5 am, going down to the Grove, which again was nothing but the gravel parking lot, 5 am, I had the parks department dig a hole with a backhoe and then put the dirt back because I was going to drive it at a press conference. But I didn't need the dirt softened up and I said this is going to be the center of our community. We had the press conference, then we went out where now Boise Town Square is, and same thing, and it was a cold, cold morning. And here's everybody there at the press conference and I said you know, they said it'd be a cold day in Boise before we ever build a mall. Well, it's cold, yeah, and we're going to build it.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you what once we opened that, we had a soft opening the night before, where the Philharmonic performed. All the stores were there, nothing was to be sold. That night we had a dinner and it was a celebration, a celebration of the hope and dreams. Do you remember, tommy? It was tradition for people to take bus trips to Salt Lake City for Christmas shopping, and that stopped. Now we have this beautiful, award-winning city.
Speaker 1:Did you all? I mean, I'm trying to think so. You're 33, you're doing this. You're doing it for the right reasons, authentically tremendous leader. Did you know that you had the ability, the vision, the ability to inspire people? Then Was it God-given? Tell me a little bit about where this comes from. I appreciate the question.
Speaker 2:I am a person of faith. No, I can't tell you that it was that. I just knew this would happen. I was motivated. Yeah, there were times, though, that, with my wonderful wife Patricia, she'd have to talk me back and say come on, you can do this. That's why you're here, that's why you've been picked to do this thing.
Speaker 1:You guys have been partners in crime for a long time. Yeah, about 48 years.
Speaker 2:Where did you meet her University of Idaho. Okay, yep. And ultimately we got married on top of Moscow Mountain at sunrise, because they said there's no more beautiful cathedral than God's creation outdoors.
Speaker 1:And you've been married for 48 years, 48 years.
Speaker 2:That's awesome Two kids, seven wonderful grandkids.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, I'm going to bounce around a little bit. Sure. So I did want to get on this podcast, the History of Boise, because I think you must walk around downtown. I was there last night. You probably know I had dinner last night with John Sununu oh good, the governor of New Hampshire downtown. But just walking around downtown now, what emotions do you feel as you walk around and see what it has become? Joy, yeah.
Speaker 2:I've said to Patricia on different occasions, if we'd never been here and I just pulled into Boise, I said I would call you and say I found the place where we want to live. I mean, it's a vibrant downtown. And I'll tell you what's really special too is you know, it's like Alex LeBeau and Jason Ronk. I had coffee with them this week but early morning hours in downtown Boise, when the provisioning trucks are pulling up and the vegetables are arriving, it's bright, it's cheerful, it's fresh, you have a cup of coffee. I mean, it's really cool.
Speaker 1:I mean the streetscapes, yes, the trees, I mean it's just. You know, last night was a Thursday night, it was just vibrant down there and I played a little small role. I walked by our building, we did, but like so much came before me and there's so much vision that people I mean that 8th Street and I was also on the call yesterday with some folks in Salt Lake City and the first thing they said is they were just in Boise and they said you know, downtown Salt Lake doesn't feel like Boise, we don't have a sense of place. And they brought up eight street. And they brought up they said how did this happen? And I, and I, and, and and I said it happened because we had leadership and vision. So anyway, I really wanted to get that on here. When, when, when did you so? You say when you ran for mayor, political aspirations of becoming the governor and being the CEO of the state and running it was not there. When did that tell me how it evolved?
Speaker 2:Ironically, after we got Boise established and rolling, a delegation came to me in my second term and they said the first congressional district seat is opening, it's yours, you should run for Congress. And I said, I mean, you've honored me by even suggesting that. And they said and we won't oppose you, there'll be no primary, this is going to be yours. And I said thank you so much, I need to think about this. They came on a Friday and I said Thank you so much, I need to think about this. They came on a Friday and they said man, I'll tell you. On Monday. And so the Russian circus was in town and they played at Boise State. So here I am with Patricia and with Heather and Jeff, the little kids sitting up there, and I'm not taking in anything of that Russian circus, I'm playing this whole thing around. And so on Monday they came back and I said, once again, I have to thank you for even suggesting this, but I'm going to pass, it's not right, I just want to keep rolling here. And so they were very surprised. It's like come on, where's the hungry politician? I said no, I'm good, thank you.
Speaker 2:I say that, Tommy, because then the next cycle Steve Sims unexpectedly announces his retirement and the US Senate seat is open, I announced for that, had I run for Congress just two years before. I couldn't do it. What set that up? And so then I become a US Senator and I said the Senate needs a few good mayors. And one of the things I did was to stop these unfunded federal mandates where the federal government said thou shalt do this, and it strapped states, counties and cities with all these mandates that they had to pay for themselves. We stopped it. My partner was John Glenn, so you got a Republican and a.
Speaker 2:Democrat man, John Glenn. This wonderful man and I started receiving literally keys to the city of mayors throughout the United States. Wow, A few hundred keys.
Speaker 1:It was really cool how did you enjoy your time back there. That's a big change. It's a big change.
Speaker 2:It was a big change. I loved it. There was intellectual stimulation because of the Senate, a lot of good people. I didn't see the dark side that you see in movies. But again I reached across the aisle, you know, john Glenn, when I did the Clean Water Act, bob Carey of Nebraska was my partner. But I was also on the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was a tremendous honor to support our men and women in military, and I took it upon myself to go to the hot spots. You may have seen the movie Black Hawk Down, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:So 10 days after those rangers had been murdered and dragged through the streets, I was there as the only senator, but I wanted to see what was taking place. I flew that route, the same route that the helicopters flew. Then I said to the US forces I said I need to go see the Pakistanis. They said you know, that's outside the green zone. I said absolutely, but I need to do that. That's why I'm here. So we took this caravan to do that. That's why I'm here. So we took this caravan 50 caliber machine guns on the back, the sidewalks were filled 10 deep with angry, angry Somalis. And here we go, I meet with the Pakistanis Five days after I left, the caravan I physically rode in was ambushed, but that's how I could support our men and women.
Speaker 2:Now I will tell you this. There were 55 Marines there, the MEU Marine Expeditionary Unit. Well, after I got back, it was announced that the United States was stopping all of its relations with Somalia. The embassy is closed, all personnel are out. Madeleine Albright, secretary of State, comes and testifies before the Armed Services Committee and it's stated that everybody is out. I start pressing her. Does that mean all military personnel are out? Oh, yes, sir, senator. Yes, sir, I said well, let me probe a little further. What about the Marines 55. Well, when they say, well, you know that you've got them.
Speaker 2:You've got them. And so I pressed and I said why are they there? And she said well, sir, there are reasons. I said then explain she couldn't. So Sam Nunn, who is the chair of armed services, we get together and he goes. Ok, dirk, I know what you're thinking. You're going to introduce a resolution to pull them out immediately. I said, yes, I am Sam, and he goes. Then put me down as a co-sponsor and I'll go to the floor with you. We go to the floor. We didn't even have to get to a vote. The State Department rescinded.
Speaker 2:I get a call from General Shala Kashuvili, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and he says Senator, I need to thank you. I couldn't bring my boys home. They were going to be picked off one by one, but they're now home. If I may, can I fast forward? Yeah, I'm Secretary of the Interior.
Speaker 2:Some years later I go to a national park and there's a park police ranger and he's got a black um ribbon on his badge and uh, he had kind of an attitude, you know. And but then I said I know what the black ribbon stands for. He goes well, what does that stand for? And I said that stands for the fact that you've lost comrades in arms and he saw from me. He said yes, he said we have. And I said who were they? He goes Arizona. I said the 14 firefighters. And he said that's correct. And I said have you always been a park ranger? He goes no, I'm a Marine. I said where were you stationed? He mentioned Mogadishu and I said oh, I was there. And then suddenly his eyes get big and he goes you're the one. I said what do you mean? You're the one that brought us home. And he teared up. And two weeks later in the mail I got his anchor and eagle and he said sir, this is to you. Thank you for bringing us home.
Speaker 1:So that's why I would go to the hot spots. There are some God things that happen that are not coincidence. Is that where you develop? Because I know you've been a staunch supporter. It's one of your passions in life. Staunch supporter, it's one of your passions in life. You probably can't see those things and be there and not then have a life of service for our military and those that serve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I admire greatly these men and women who put it on the line for us. I mean, they put everything on the line for us, and so it was an honor to be armed services. When I was faced with the choice of running for governor and leaving the US Senate, someone said how will you feel if we go to war and you're no longer in armed services?
Speaker 2:And I said that would hurt. But I leave the US Senate, become governor. We go to war, but governor is commander in chief of the National Guard and the 116th is deployed 4,300. The largest deployment in Idaho history. Yeah, to have to get them ready. We got them ready. They had the entire province of Kirkuk. Al Gayhart was the commanding general. Tommy, they did a magnificent job and I don't know, maybe I'll give you one more anecdote there. I love it. So I'm their commander in chief and I'm determined that I will go because I'm the last human hand they shook before they left CONUS, continental United States. I called Paul Revere, paul Revere and the Raiders, because Paul Revere is from Caldwell. I said, paul, would you put on a concert for the 116th because they're leaving? He goes hey, man, yeah, gov, when do you need this?
Speaker 2:And I said I'll need it in 10 days. He goes wow, dude. But anyway, he called the band. They were all over the country, they all came. They didn't charge a penny. They came to Boise, we flew down in a C-130. And for six days, during Thanksgiving, we stayed with the troops, because it takes six days for 4,000 people to get on individual airplanes and fly. Paul and his wife, sydney, stood with me in line. We served the Thanksgiving dinner, for took us eight hours. But anyway, they would often say, governor, will you come see us? I said absolutely so.
Speaker 2:About two months later I'm set to have the Pentagon take me to Iraq and I get a call that well, for security reasons, we need to delay this by a week. They kept delaying, delaying. We couldn't tell anybody, you know, at home because of security. So I knew they would not take me. So I called Steve Hanks of Washington Group. I know Steve well. Steve's a good man. Steve's a good man. I said Steve, do you have projects in Iraq? He goes we do Gov. And I said you're getting people in? He goes, yes, sir. I said OK, I want you to put me on your payroll for $1 and take me to Iraq. He said man, if you're serious, I can do it. I said I'm serious, wow, so we're ready to roll. But the manifest goes in before any planes come in. Well, the military looks at the manifest and here's my name pops up.
Speaker 2:Next thing I know, I get a call from Karl Rove. Governor, what in the hell do you think you're doing? I said, karl, I'm going to go see my troops. He goes. Don't you know how dangerous that is, what they would do to you in the most public, brutal fashion because of your rank? I said, yes, carl, it's called war, but that's where you've sent our troops. I will go. He goes, you do this and all hell will break loose. I said, well, it's breaking because I'm going. He hung up on me. Two hours later you get a call from the Pentagon. We're taking you. So I go to Iraq.
Speaker 2:And it was when I arrived. Tommy, one of our convoys, the 116th, was being hauled back in smoldering. The young kids were being air flighted out. I mean, this was war and it was incredible. And it was incredible when we got back, when I got back from that visit to these troops, the colonel had been assigned from the Pentagon to keep me alive. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base. And he said may I be candid? I said about time. And he said when I was given my mission, I thought this is foolish, dangerous and no return on investment. But to see what it does for morale for an entire brigade when their governor shows up, I will recommend that we lift the embargo on governors. And that's when it was lifted, wow.
Speaker 1:So anyway, what a Turk are you writing a book?
Speaker 2:No, You're not going to. I don't know, I don't know how to write a book.
Speaker 1:There's people that will help you. You need to write a book. What an incredible story, thanks. What an incredible story Was the decision? So you kind of spoke a little bit to it, but when you came back as governor, hard decision for you. Or was that more of a CEO position coming back? It's a great job right.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful job. Wonderful job If you want to know who you are and what you're made of. Become the CEO of a sovereign state. Yeah, but it was a tough decision. I was doing well in the Senate, I loved armed services, I loved my assignments, I loved serving the state of Idaho, but Phil Bath, the incumbent governor at the time, came to me and said you need to come home and you need to run for governor. And I said we have wonderful candidates and he goes. Their time is not yet. He really pressed me. That had an impact on me.
Speaker 1:I didn't know him, but he's an incredible guy from everyone.
Speaker 2:Yes, Tough, tough, tough cookie. Yeah, I've heard that too. Oh my word Short temper, Everything about it. Oh my word yeah.
Speaker 1:So when you came back, what year was it that you came back and became governor?
Speaker 2:Well, what would that have been?
Speaker 1:99?, 99., yeah, yeah. So and then that was an incredible ride, right? You think of the state of Idaho and you go back to the 90s. You know late 90s and all of the things you accomplished in a short time there. Talk about your time as governor. You just told a great story of the troops. What were the other significant accomplishments during your time.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I put real emphasis on children. Yeah, Both Patricia and I did Put in a third grade reading initiative so that kids, you have to be able to read by third grade to have a success path.
Speaker 1:I remember that focus. I remember being so impressed because it was like, and that was one of her passions Absolutely, and how involved she was.
Speaker 2:She did so many wonderful things for children throughout the state and she's gotten nice accolades for it now later, which is really cool, but I called it the generation of the child, and it's so funny. When we hit the millennial, I sent letters to every baby that was born, and so, anyway, this kid shows up in 2021, and he said, hey, are you the governor? That was, and I said, yeah, and he goes. I got a letter from you. That's so cool, but we did a lot of things. The Native Americans I acknowledge them as five sovereigns.
Speaker 2:I have good relations with them to this day. Roads and bridges were a problem, as you know, tommy, you that have built so much. And so I made this proposal because we were losing college kids on holidays, when they'd go home, on these roads, winter, et cetera. So I said we've got to change this and so I made this proposal, got it through the Senate, it got over to the House and they killed it. The Senate, it got over to the House and they killed it.
Speaker 2:The next morning, after they'd killed my major initiative, the media filled my office and I'd already had a press conference set up for methamphetamine, because I was tough on methamphetamine, but there were no questions on that. They said how do you feel? How do you feel that your Republican legislature just killed your initiative on roads and bridges? I said well, I'll show you what I'm going to do. I said swing your cameras over to the desk. So I go over and sit down at my desk and all the cameras and the microphones are put on that.
Speaker 2:And I said now you know what this is. This is the stack of legislation that's passed, the legislature. All it needs is my signature and it's the law of the land. Let's see what we have. And I read the top eight and I said my mother and father taught me to understand and to practice the golden rule. They've taught me sometimes you must simply rule. So here's what we're going to do with the top eight. And I got out the veto stamp and I smacked all eight of them. I mean it sent shockwaves. It was great drama and I said now y'all come back tomorrow morning.
Speaker 1:How much of that was preplanned? Did you have this idea, or was it?
Speaker 2:Well, the night before the night before, well, we laid out all the legislation and we'd say, all right, I'll do this one, I'll do that one, you know. And anyway, I said, come back tomorrow. The next date will also receive the red ink. Until they understand. Cooperation and communication miraculously taught me, they resurrected my legislation. It ultimately did 57 projects throughout the state over the years and ITD and Idaho Transportation Department and the state police say it now saves at least 88 to 100 lives per year.
Speaker 1:Who was your chief of staff? Was it Jason? During?
Speaker 2:this, not at that point. It started off with Jeff Malman. Yeah, jeff Yep. And then Phil Reberger and then Brian Whitlock. Yeah, I've had great staff. I love all my staff. You've had great staff. Yeah, jeff Yep. And then Phil Reberger and then Brian.
Speaker 1:Whitlock yeah, I've had great staff. I love all my staff. You've had great staff, yeah. So you're clipping along and then you're asked to be part of the administration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, can I add one more thing before I left as governor? Yeah, the other thing that was left undone that needed to be corrected. We did not have a state veteran cemetery, and so once again, I said to legislature at that particular year nobody's going home until you appropriate the funds for this. We may be the only state without a state veteran cemetery, so we may be last, but we'll also be one of the best, and you're not going home until we get this rolling. And so we got it. And now I encourage everybody to go to the Idaho State Veterans Cemetery. It's beautiful.
Speaker 1:It's magnificent, isn't it Magnificent?
Speaker 2:We're the only one with two tiers. It's magnificent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's just, it's sacred, and again.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that. I mean you need to write a book, and that's my goal. There's just so much. I'm glad you mentioned that. So right now there's appointments with President Trump coming in and it's a big deal. I'm appreciating now in life how big of a deal it is to be a secretary and lead one of these departments. When you were called by President Bush, how was that? I mean, I remember it when it happened and I thought, oh, this is a big deal. But now, looking back, I mean I just and I think this has been great to kind of chronologue oh, thanks, it's an incredible story, but tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got a call one day from the White House would you like to meet with the president?
Speaker 2:I said yes, I would. Can you be here tomorrow? I said no, I can't, and it's because we had Idaho National Guard operations taking place and that was my priority. I'm not going to turn my back on the troops for another agenda. But they were quiet and they said, well, when can you be here? And I said I can be there in five days. More silence and they said, all right. So anyway, nothing is said about any appointment. It's just you're going to meet the president. I get to Washington DC on that day. And I called them and I said, ok, I'm in town, I want you to know that.
Speaker 2:C on that day, and I called them and I said, okay, I'm in town, I want you to know that. And they said, perfect. They said, listen, the president wants to see you at 11. And then throughout the day, the vice president wants to talk to you, andy Card, chief of staff, and then Carl Rovland speak to you. And I thought, well, this is going to be an interesting day, a lot of discussion. 11 o'clock, I'm shown into the Oval Office and you know the setting, the fireplace where the two chairs, where the president always sits.
Speaker 1:I've seen it on TV.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So anyway, there's my chair, but also on the couch is Vice President Cheney, andy Card and Karl Rove. I thought well, they pulled them all together. So anyway, president Bush welcomes me, you know, and we sit down in front of the fireplace and then he peppers me with questions for 20 minutes. I mean, they call him the interrupter in chief and he just boom, boom, boom and I'm responding and then he suddenly says I want you to do it, yes or no? And I had to play back. What did I just say that he wants me to do? And then I realized that, opening at interior, that he wants me to do. And then I realized that, opening at interior, he wants me to do it yes or no. And, tommy, again, I know the expectation when anyone, any young person, is asked to serve their nation, there's only one answer it's yes. And I feel that's for all of us. And I'd just been asked to serve my nation. So I said yes. And he says great, grabs my hand, shakes it, pulls out his schedule, he says we'll announce it today. Well, cheney jumps up, rove jumps up, they want to do trial balloons for a few days and he goes no, can you be back here at 4.30? I said yes. He said good, we'll announce at 5.
Speaker 2:I walk out of of the office, I borrow one of their phones and I call patricia. I said you better watch the news tonight. I mean, that's how fast this is rolling. What was bush like? Wonderful, um, warm, humorous and and very intelligent? Uh, the cabinet meetings. He was in charge. No paperwork, he just. And he would. Unfortunately, that's not what's portrayed by the press. Yeah, but boy, in those settings you knew who was in charge. So, anyway, I walk back. The next time I walk into the Oval Office, it's just with myself, george W and the entire national international media, and he says this will be my nominee for Secretary of the Interior. Wow, same day, yep.
Speaker 1:And I've never talked to you about this, but what was the experience like? And I've never talked to you about this, but what was the experience like? Because I remember when it happened and I remember thinking I guess I knew you a little bit, but not, I mean, I'm like this is, like you know, kind of capstone of your career, where you were at your time and service. Did you enjoy it and what was it like? I loved it.
Speaker 2:I had 72,000 employees the day I started. I was the only new hire and I got 72,000 employees. We spanned 14 time zones. You have 20% of the United States. It was wonderful.
Speaker 2:And then I took all of the experiences from the Senate and of being governor, combined them that I knew how to run a big organization and I knew the issues quite well. So I really enjoyed it. We did so many different things and I guess I'd give you this example my first budget under my administration, $18 billion, and I've been in the office probably six months and the budget committee of the department I had inherited, including a wonderful, wonderful individual who she thought she should have been named secretary, and then it's her team and OK, but you embrace, and so, anyway, you present your budget to the Office of Management Budget. They whack it. It goes back and forth four or five rounds, boom, boom, they whack it, you adjust. Anyway, the final submission is to be in a letter format and it's like midnight on that Wednesday. So at 9.30 pm on that Wednesday they invite me in. They said, mr Secretary, your letter is ready. I said, thank you very much. I walk in. They're all sitting there expecting me to sign that letter. I read it. It's five pages. I read page one. Page two set it down and I said I want to say something. For whatever reason, the planets aligned and I was named secretary. I can't explain it, but I'm the secretary and therefore I have to be the secretary. In the time I've been here, I've come to respect every one of you and appreciate your passion, your dedication to the country and to this department. But I will not sign this letter. This is why you've had a bad budget every year you've been here and I will not be a party to it.
Speaker 2:Well, I shocked them all. I mean, it's like the new quarterback that doesn't run that same play. And I said here's what I want. To their credit, they took good notes At 11.30. And I said here's what I want. To their credit, they took good notes At 11.30 pm. They called me back in here's your letter. And they thought I had just sacrificed my future because the new guy doesn't know how to play the game and this is going to really hurt this department.
Speaker 2:I read the five pages. I signed it. I said thank you very much. It's delivered before midnight to the White House. What's the outcome? All nine bureaus got the best budget they had had ever it. Just they thought what in the world? So they called office management, they said what gives, and they said this guy's different, because with all of the departments we whack you and you try to placate us. This guy came back at the 11th hour and said no, no, no, I told you day one what I needed and why, and I will produce if you'll give me the tools I'm asking for. They said that was novel. They said let's try it. Well, guess what? The new little quarterback. Suddenly everybody, 72,000 people, said there's our leader and I could make him go. Wow, unbelievable, fun, fun. Yeah, but you're putting it on the line.
Speaker 1:I'm going to get to some personal stuff now. What does the country mean to you, United States of America?
Speaker 2:I think it's the greatest country in the world. I think it is the beacon of freedom, of inspiration and of hope for people throughout the world, as well as our own citizens. But it is not without fault and it's not without fractures.
Speaker 1:You've got grandkids. Yes, when you look at their future in the country, what do you tell them?
Speaker 2:I take them to different events that are both historic but inspiring, and encourage them that this is the United States, this is Idaho. You can be very proud of that, but you need to be part of that, you need to contribute to it, you need to do your part. We all need to contribute to our future and the well-being. If you see things that are not right, it's good to speak up. In fact, it's good to speak up. In fact, it's expected.
Speaker 1:Go to Idaho now. It's a great state. Yeah, the people, the heritage. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:We have a beautiful history, but what I say, tommy, is we're still wholesome. Yeah, my measure are the young people. And when you go into the grocery stores, you know you go into Albertsons and you've got somebody that's helping you with the bags, or they're shagging the carts out there and you say, hey, good job, you know they're pushing it through the snow, they went and got all the carts. Oh, thank you, sir, but it's my job. Our young people are still wholesome. You go to the car washes. They smile at you, they're not sullen. You look at what the kids are doing at the universities and colleges. Gosh, I was invited recently to go over to the College of Idaho and to speak at Jim Everett's class. Man, what a wonderful group of people.
Speaker 2:Many of them were on the teams you know the girls' volleyball, the boys' baseball, the football, the questions they had, and yet and Jim has them do this but every one of them wrote me a thank you note for coming. And then I get this stack of these thank you notes handwritten by these students. You know, and what Scott Green's doing up there at the University of Idaho, what Boise State, idaho State, I mean NNU, you know, we got the Y down there in Rexburg. I mean it's magnificent what's going on. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Future is bright with our kids? I think so, and we're keeping them here, right? I mean, I agree, our higher ed CWI, everything that's going on. We're kind of. You know, you think of the future. It is those kids, it's keeping them here and it's having them carry the torch right of what this place means and what America means to them. It's great. You've had a few health problems. Yeah, you're going through it right now I am. I appreciate you being here today because I know you're going through it. Well, I appreciate that, tommy. How's that been for a guy like you? That's just always. I think we all kind of take our health a little bit for granted. I mean, I do, I know, and then you go through something. You're like, oh, this may not go on forever and I need to. Does it change you a little bit? Oh, sure.
Speaker 2:I mean, nobody wants to be told they have cancer, yeah, and then I had to deal with that, the family had to deal with that. But then we discussed it and we decided that if something good can come from this, that would be a blessing. So we went public and just said, all right, I have cancer. But may I use this as a situation to encourage everybody go get tested, stay current and stay vigilant in your own health care needs.
Speaker 1:Dirk, that is such like you, though I mean you know I got chills when you said that because I mean you know, I mean I'm just. I mean got chills when you said that because I mean you, you're just a servant. So even in your time of greatest need, where you hear those words, you have cancer. One of the first things you go to is how can I use this for good? Yeah, it's unbelievable, it's just spires.
Speaker 2:The heck out of me. Well, thank you, and it's been so positive. People, people, I mean I'll go in the grocery store, be out on the street and say, hey, I'm going to be tested next month because of what you did. Editorials that talk about it. I mean. So if good comes from that, then something OK. That's positive and it's a little more than what we originally thought. I mean, I've now started two more months of chemo. One of the things that I've said to the medical team is I know that you assign physical therapy post-op. I want it. Pre-op, I said I'm going to be a NASA astronaut. I got to get ready for the mission and rather than outer space, it's inner space, because we're going to have to have extensive surgery. So let's get ready. And they said you know, that's a great idea, so I'm getting ready for the mission.
Speaker 1:Well, even when you came in today, I said how are you doing? And you told me you had chemo this week and you said it just makes me more productive. You told me you had chemo this week and you said it just makes me more productive. Yeah, I'm able to sit and do my stuff. And then you said I'm going to always remember this. You said and I don't sleep that night, so I get to be productive all night long. I mean, you're just an inspiration.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:Tommy, what has Patricia meant during this time of life?
Speaker 2:She's my soulmate. I couldn't ask for a more staunch support person. Through this she keeps my spirits up, but you know, when I need something in the middle of the night she'll get it. So she's tough. But when we did go public with it and she saw it on TV or in the newspapers, it hit her and she cried and she says it's real, isn't it? And I said, yeah, it's real, it's what we're dealing with. But she and the family have been so supportive and I keep them all informed. When we did the call with Huntsman Cancer Institute, which is where I would work with St Luke's as well as Huntsman down in Salt Lake City, the kids can be on the call and hear what the doctors say. So I'm getting ready. I intend to be a victor, not a victim, of this dang thing. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:Ben, I don't know if it's possible to express how much you mean to this place, but thank you. Thank you for a life of service and an attitude of it's just. It's so remarkable. I hope you know, and I hope you know how many people are praying for you and love you and admire you. You're just a living legend. Thanks, tommy, and we're blessed. Because of you we walk the streets of Boise. We're blessed, I mean, we walk this state and this country because of men like you, women that serve and love this place.
Speaker 1:So it's nice to stop and reflect with you and I just can't tell you thank you enough for your service and what you mean to us.
Speaker 2:Well, what a wonderful thing for you to say Thank you. I mean that touches my heart. And two, let me thank you all the things you have done. I mean things you touch are to help others, and you make it. You have enhanced our quality of life.
Speaker 1:We just feel I'm going to tell a story from a couple of weeks ago. You know the Operation Military Blessings thing. I mean we're going to have Tom on later today, but you're just in your hands, are everywhere and you know the second. There's a need, you're there. I hope any closing words for people who may be listening that may inspire them to maybe do more or be better, anything you would tell our listeners of I don't know, just kind of closing remarks, sure.
Speaker 2:Can I first thank you for your support of Operation Military Blessings? Absolutely, I first thank you for your support of Operation Military Blessings. I mean this is helping the youngest and the most freshmen of our military that are on food stamps, that just need help.
Speaker 1:It's sad.
Speaker 2:It's sad, but thanks for what you're doing, and Tom Wessall is doing a magnificent job and Chuck Winder is going to be a key part of that as well. What I would say is this Never give up hope and know that you can make a difference. And if you have an idea in you, something planted that idea and when others may say it's not a good idea, but you have it. You may not listen to those and if it's positive, pursue it. And also take time to listen to one another. In Home Depot, the young man who was checking me out and he said oh, you're the former governor, Can I ask you? And I made sure I took the time to answer his question and look him in the eye and just I would say that to everybody. I've said if you want a promise of a bright future, look into the eyes of a child, because they only know hope and happiness, but let's make sure it becomes reality as they mature and that we do our job to turn it over to them and then say your prayers at night.
Speaker 1:I love it Of all the things you are. You're kind and you're good, and everyone who's around you is better because of you. So thank you, governor, for being here, love you, praying for you, thank you, that's what.
Speaker 2:I need.
Speaker 1:You're going to beat this like you beat everything else. Thank you, thank you, god bless you, thanks everybody.