Ever Onward Podcast

How Boise State Built Its Esports Empire with Doc Haskell | Ever Onward - Ep. 88

• Ahlquist. • Season 1 • Episode 88

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“When Boise State’s president boldly proclaimed in 2017 that the university could become ‘the Alabama of esports,’ few imagined how quickly that vision would take shape. What began with walk-on players has since transformed into a nationally dominant program—boasting six championships and a reputation as a recruiting powerhouse. In this captivating conversation, Chris ‘Doc’ Haskell pulls back the curtain on the rise of Boise State’s esports dynasty and how it’s reshaping collegiate competition in the digital age.”

What sets Boise State University apart isn't just their gaming prowess—it's their revolutionary approach to student-athlete development. Unlike the stereotype of basement-dwelling gamers, Doc recruits National Honor Society students with stellar GPAs who happen to excel at gaming. With $175,000 in annual scholarships and a stunning 7,000-square-foot downtown facility, they've created an environment where academic excellence and gaming mastery coexist.

The most compelling aspect of this conversation goes beyond championships and facilities. Doc's voice breaks with emotion several times as he discusses the profound responsibility of mentoring young people and creating experiences that will shape their lives long after graduation. His leadership philosophy—centered on accountability, continuous improvement, and celebrating both victories and defeats—offers valuable insights for anyone in a position of influence.

Whether you're a gaming enthusiast curious about collegiate esports, a parent wondering about opportunities in this emerging field, or a leader seeking fresh perspectives on building championship cultures, this episode delivers unexpected wisdom from the digital frontier. Come explore how a program that seemed improbable just eight years ago is now positioning itself to become an Olympic training center and a model for universities nationwide.

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Speaker 1:

Today on the Ever Onward podcast, we have Chris Haskell, aka Doc Haskell. He is the head coach and director of the varsity esports team at Boise State University. Longtime professor at Boise State, who became the head coach in 2017 and has grown an incredible program that's the envy of the nation at Boise State. Can't wait to hear all about himise State and the esports program. Doc Haskell, thanks for coming on. You bet it's gonna be fun. I I we're meeting for the first time today, but I feel like I know you because dozens of people have been telling me you got to get Doc on here. No, derek, you're kind of a, so I've done a little research and watched a little video and kind of digging into this a little bit. It's really cool. I can't wait to talk today and hear. Well, first of all, we're huge, huge Bronco fans and I am not in this world, so it's fascinating to me. It's like blows my mind. Fascinating to me, so I can't wait to talk to you. Let's start. Tell us a little bit about you.

Speaker 2:

Gosh, I'm on the wrong side of middle age, probably. I'm probably the oldest coach in my field, because most of the folks are in their early 30s, late 20s right in esports, and I'm 54.

Speaker 1:

Did you see that study that came out this week? They've done this deep dive on aging, when you really start changing your body and it's like in the 30s, which is super disappointing for me. I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah, the 30s, which is super disappointing for me. I'm like, oh my gosh. They did all this imaging and it shows your capillaries and your arteries and your aorta starts like you're on the other side of it at like 30.

Speaker 1:

You're falling apart Wheels are falling off at 30, right, doc? That's not good. So I think we're all on the other side of it, but you are one of the older guys then huh, yeah, I am.

Speaker 2:

I mean so by way of history. I mean, I came to Boise State in 1990 as an undergrad, lived in Chafee Hall. Where'd you come from? Portland area, portland, yeah, I mean, you start to locate enough. And anybody who's familiar with that area, I would say Gresham, and then, well, actually more probably Damascus, boring Sandy area. So you grew up over there, yep, tell us a little bit about that growing up over there.

Speaker 2:

Growing up over there. I went to San Barlow High School, which was in band and music had the best band director in the state for many years, chuck Bolton. What did you play? Percussion Well, and we have to. Okay, drummer, percussionist. That's the primary difference.

Speaker 2:

Came here to study with John Baldwin the original doc right, he was. Doc Baldwin taught us really that approach of if you spend enough time with people, you can't have such a formal title that students never feel like they have a personal relationship, but they can't take it so personal that they can call you by your first name. And that's what Doc Baldwin did. So when I found myself in this position, I immediately stole that moniker as a way of being disarmed enough but being formal enough in front of colleagues that it didn't tilt them. Yeah, and came to school in 90 and got all three degrees from Boise State and uh, and came back which is unheard of to then, you know, be faculty at your, at your university, and taught 10 years in the college of education uh, with Rich Osguthorpe and uh, lisa Dolly and that crew and Brett Shelton. And then uh, made the transition when e-sports started. Started to what year was that? 2017 is when Bob Custra said we could be the Alabama of esports, and Gordon Jones said we're going to find an unfair competitive advantage.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so 2017, so eight years, and it's interesting digging into this kind of getting ready for this. What's happened, yeah, one in how big the space is and what it is in collegiate athletics now and what's happened to it, and two, how dominant the program's been.

Speaker 2:

It's been amazing, I mean, and it feels kind of like you've seen Inception. It feels like Miller's Planet. We were down there for an hour and 27 years have passed, I still don't get that show.

Speaker 1:

It's like my kids' favorite show and I'm like you guys are too smart for me.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of math in that show, kip Thorne and the like but it has been a whirlwind. Well, here's what's crazy we're the third FBS school. We're the third power school to join the first one, your alma mater, utah. Aj Ademic built that first program there in the Division I big football playing school era. There were about 30 smaller Division II III schools back in the day, but now we were the third. Miami Ohio was the second. There are 200 FBS schools today playing and we play in the top with Utah. We play in the top power esports conference with Michigan State, ohio State, syracuse, nebraska, minnesota. I mean all these really top schools. Q's right.

Speaker 1:

Nebraska, Minnesota, I mean all these really top schools Talk about the journey and how it started and kind of how give us back, because I think I mean I'm assuming, like I always say, I'm the old guy now that, but you think of people that may be listening to this part of the intrigue of you one and I want to get into that. I think you're a tremendous leader and I think people look up to you for a lot of things. I want to get into that. But this is pretty new for a lot of people that are like what, what? Does this mean and how does this work?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, it's no stranger than rowing as a college sport, right? I mean it doesn't have a direct corollary to any careers? Right, it just is this athletic thing that if you focus on, you can become good. And then we start taking on our rivals and we see who can be better at this thing. Right, it's around long enough and rowing become well. It makes sense. Right, it's in the Olympics, but esports is going to be in the Olympics in about five minutes. So it's all part of the same kind of pattern. But for us.

Speaker 2:

I was in the College of Education. Games was my area that I taught most of my classes in using Minecraft or Second Life or Roblox as a learning platform, bringing students into it. And I was genuinely going back to a conference I'd already given my good keynote at and I needed to search for another one. So I dove into gaming groups, esports, and I thought I was going to do this broader one, and it became really evident to me like, oh my gosh, this is the gold rush moment. Right, I shared it with Brett Shelton, who shared it with the dean, and it got all the way up to Bob Custer and he's the one that said so.

Speaker 2:

There's an opportunity to be the Alabama of esports. This is eight years ago. Alabama hadn't gotten beat by Vanderbilt, so maybe we're the Georgia of esports now, but it kind of became automatic at that point. I didn't intend to go down this path, but I was passionate about it and I loved the students that we were drawing in and it was like an opportunity to create, as Gordon said, an unfair competitive advantage. So how do you start?

Speaker 1:

a program. I mean, how does it begin?

Speaker 2:

It begins with some memorandums of understanding on a campus like who's going to? We're going to spin this thing off? Who? Where does it sit? Yeah, and it was. Uh, it was Gordon Jones who said, no, that this needs to come to the college of innovation and design. And so it it. It moved that way pretty quickly from education where I was, and they brought me with it, um, and I don't know what they traded for me, I'm always fascinated when, because I think for the rest of the world, understanding the politics of a campus, it's always like what?

Speaker 1:

But talk about how, the different? Just because I haven't had anyone on this that has talked about it. But you do have the way it's kind of set up is you have different colleges and deans. The way it's kind of set up is you have different colleges and deans and there's a lot of from the outside looking in, a lot of competition, and especially now that funding happens, it's like, okay, this new idea that hey, we're going to kind of find ways to bring outside dollars and a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2:

It's pretty competitive within. So there's a general principle that always applies on every campus, from CWI all the way up to the Stanford of Southwest Idaho, which would be Boise State the idea of academic and intellectual independence, that you get to do your thing and we're going to support you because you're the expert. In that I mean. It starts really with the thesis and dissertation process. You drill down into something in a way that no one else, so you're really the expert. So we can't tell you you don't know more than because you do. You know more than everybody else.

Speaker 2:

So when, when these ideas pop up, you have to have support, for which can be students who are interested in it, or dollars, for which can be external Right, and so we had to find those things too. Gordon jones is the one we can market this. He's the one who first brought um, you know, hp to the table to sponsor the program and, crucial, you know, micron to help sponsor the program. And iccu yeah, I saw something recently um with it with a plaque, with k Orme, who is one of our original true believers. He and Clark Rasmussen from ICCU were like we want to scholarship these kids. So when you have a good idea and you have a way to support it.

Speaker 2:

Kent's the man. Oh, amazing, yeah, absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1:

Kent, if you're listening to this, we love you, we do. He's like the absolute best. Yeah, he's in. Ken, if you're listening to this, we love you, we do. He's like the absolute best. Yeah, he's in a bad car accident. He's recovering and man, I just I love that guy. But I saw, I was watching the video last night and I saw the ICCU on the jerseys, oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they're a huge part of fame. 40 students. And they're responsible for all of that. I mean they came in to help support kids through and it's not a massive scholarship. We have to build scholarships, like every sport program does. But they were critical in that early piece and they got those kids out.

Speaker 1:

So back to the deal here. Sorry, you pick a call, but they, gordon wanted you because he could see this thing and saying, hey, well, you've talked with him, he's wicked smart. Yeah, yeah, he's got vision. Yeah, he certainly does. So he saw that you go in the college. He knew where the puck was going to be. He knows where the puck was going to be. He's skating to the puck, right, that's great. And so then, how did you start it? Tell us a little bit how it got going. Was there already in the nation? Was there already a? You said it wasn't the FBS schools, but was there already a pretty robust program out there that you'd kind of merged into? Or how did it start?

Speaker 2:

Well, so I mean national organizations for competition are always part of it, right, In college sports we know NCAA and we know the NAIA. Well, the NAIA had started an organization called NACE. No one needs to write this down, it's not on the final, but it was a collection of division one, II and III schools with esports programs and brought us kind of all together In the early days when we were school number 36 and Georgia State was 37, right, it made sense to circle the wagons that way, but there are over 800 today. We get emails every day asking from schools who are spinning up programs. Can they come and visit our campus? They want to know what we're doing. West Virginia right now is in our DMs saying, hey, how'd you set this part up? How'd you do this? We didn't expect that we would be in that position, but we were early enough.

Speaker 1:

Right that people want to learn from our mistakes now, yeah, so you set it up, what are the steps that need to go into it? And then how do you recruit? What I want to get to is Okay, now you have, we're sitting here looking at your championship rings on the table here, but it's a big deal, and you and you now you have a full program. So going it's a very short time to go from an idea to full programs, to winning championships every year and competing for the national championship every year and being the premier program or one of the premier programs in the country. So how did you do that?

Speaker 2:

So the short version of it is. We decided we wanted to do it. Brett Shelton, who was my department chair in ed tech at the time, said, yeah, let's do this. And I had to kind of breadcrumb him for a little bit. I would have to send him like, hey, I just need you to read just the first two paragraphs of this article today and then a couple of days later, will you watch just the first five minutes of this video and eventually he's like okay, I get it, what are we doing? And so we spun it up.

Speaker 2:

We drafted an MOU, which was education and CID Marty Shemp was the provost at the time. He signed it, it went on to and then we were an official unit on campus. We had an account code and it was on right. That's how it begun. And if you have an account code, then you can bring in money. It's not always easy, but you can bring in money into a university and you can start to do things like buy jerseys and plan for travel and things like that.

Speaker 2:

And you know, as strange as that sounds, we then just outgrew every space that we had, offended the neighbors by doing too much stuff with the students. Right, students were having too much fun, right, they were laughing too much, they were showing up too often, and that's the only way to get change on a campus, right? Is you get students to stretch the walls of the space you're in until they're like, well, we got to solve this, let's move them over there. Okay, let's move them over there. So we had three or four homes before where we are now, which is across from Trader Joe's downtown, everybody's driven by the space and going.

Speaker 2:

What are they doing in there, it's eSports.

Speaker 1:

It's awesome. Yeah, so did you initially the kids that competed, were they already on campus?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, they were walk-on. We just did local talent search and you did talent search reached out to the community and through. There were clubs on campus that were playing some of the different games. We brought them all in and yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1:

So then, why were they so good? Why did they, why were they winning immediately?

Speaker 2:

well, some of them would tell you we weren't. We weren't good in the beginning and we actually lost, um, a number of. I mean I think we lost the first three mountain west championships to unlv uh in in two of the different games. So, um, it took us a little while to recruit, to build to that level. You know be a bigger, more California centric area and you know, like in football there there are the Texas type places where they just develop a lot of really good talent. In one thing, I don't know where rowing would be, but you know, texas football, florida football, southern California and Nevada were really strong in esports back then. So it wasn't until 2020 that we won our first title in something other than Rocket League in the Mountain West.

Speaker 1:

That's great, and what? So now for us listening. What are the?

Speaker 2:

games oh, okay, everybody has seen it Rocket League, which is cars playing soccer right, everybody recognizes that one. We play Smash, which is a game probably lots of folks have seen on their Nintendo, and it's like a 1v1 fighting game. We're all terrible at it and our children are much better at it. The other two that we play as top varsity games are Overwatch, which is a professional league also, and Valorant, which is also another, and those are 5v5 team games. We sponsor primarily team games, but we have a college football 25 to 26 player. We have a Madden player, madden national champion player. So those are the primary games and every couple of years we look to see is there something developing that we might want to recruit the next best student in? But most schools play the four that I mentioned Rocket League, valorant, overwatch and Smash.

Speaker 1:

So now I'm going to get into some really naive questions. So you recruit these kids Now you have a name brand. Well, it's Boise State, right, so it's a pretty great place to come.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 1:

It kind of sells itself. I think a lot. But you get these kids come in. It's now competitive. You're kind of picking who you want to come in. What's the like? Do they train, do they?

Speaker 2:

I mean like here is where the mysticism kind of drops a little bit, because it is what you already know. It is college sports. It's 20 hours a week, 24 weeks of contact right, grade point minimums, bronco code. We're in meetings early in the season, we're doing the photos and media, we're watching film together, we're building out essentially our playbook and practicing against other teams. The difference is that we can scrimmage other teams without leaving home because everybody plays online, and so we can play Notre Dame in a scrimmage on Tuesday and try to execute our stuff. It's just fascinating to me. Yeah, I mean, that part of it makes it really cool.

Speaker 2:

We have in the past sometimes had practice squads. You know, folks who are trying to make the main team that we can practice against. But often it's good to test strategy and how prepared we are against somebody who just wants to beat us, no matter what right. They're not the B team right, so that makes it really handy. But it is what you know. I mean they come after class, have a quick snack in the fueling station and then they're at their consoles. We're going over our practice plan. These are the maps we're going to hit, these are the strategies we're going to do and here's what's the expectation. We're watching film together, you know so watching film.

Speaker 1:

You're actually studying the other teams that you play Absolutely. What they do, what their strategies are and how you're going to beat them yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's just mind-blowing. It is. The fundamental difference in esports is these kids come in with professional level skills that many of them have or could play professional, and they choose college instead. Unlike the big sports where physical maturity allows you to be ready for the NFL, the NBA, wnba any of those or Olympics, they're usually at their best between 16 and 21, right. So it tends to overlap and we have professional players now who are full-time college students. We have to hand over their time. Jonathan Foraker recently he was in Korea, in Japan, in Stockholm, sweden, for the World Championships. He's an Overwatch player for us and a team captain for us, but he's never stopped his student time. We just hand over his competitive time in those brief six-week periods where they're doing the professional stuff.

Speaker 1:

What kind of money is there in this for these guys that play professionally? I?

Speaker 2:

mean tens to hundreds of thousands. I mean Peyton Tuma, who's our Madden. He won the Madden Bowl twice. He won it first time at 17, and we're still recruiting him Right, and he's won a bunch of Madden tournaments. I mean, I don't, I don't look at what his earnings are. That's not good when you're state employed to look at what your students are earning, but it's, I mean, it's in the, it's in the six and seven figures, his, his success in that game. So you know, our scholarship conversation is very different. I'm like, peyton, would you offer a scholarship to another student?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but yeah they can have that kind of success. Talk about. One of the things I thought was fascinating in the video I watched is so, then, a lot of it's remote, but then these championships are held in different regions of the country and it looks very competitive.

Speaker 2:

It is yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of going at it.

Speaker 2:

On stage, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of going at it On stage. Yeah, and it was. I thought it was interesting. It's not March Madness, it's May Madness, may Madness, and it's tournament brackets, the whole thing. Talk us through that.

Speaker 2:

You bet. So we were in a number of different competitive. It's like golf in a sense there are majors throughout the year, right, and there is a big finish at the end. It's the it's where it's. It is the May madness. Basketball is the best correlation there, where the winners from each of the conferences and a lot of the big conferences play the big 10, right, all the way down to the peach Belt, right they all bring their representatives and they bracket us up and we just climb to the top right. So it's the top 64 teams actually top 16 teams in four different games, climbing to Vita, that national championship. So it's pretty cool, but it is exactly what you would think it would be.

Speaker 1:

Over what period of time is the competition? It's a weekend, right you?

Speaker 2:

qualify for and then it's it's all or nothing. Um, in the last three years it's been in uh in arlington, texas. We think this year it'll be in las vegas that's great yeah, it's good for us.

Speaker 1:

We can get our fans to las vegas, so I also saw so so talk about, uh, jeremiah and the department of athletics and yeah, and cody and kind and kind of how they've kind of embraced this yeah.

Speaker 2:

Apologies to any of your University of Idaho graduates that are listening, because this is always painful to listen to, but we are in the good old days right now. I don't think people realize. You do. You've spoken with him, you've heard people talk about him. Jeremiah is special and singular. His drive is fearless. He's looking for epic all the time.

Speaker 2:

What's next is not just a branding decision, it is a strategy is a strategy. And he was on campus just I mean maybe two weeks, and he and Cody invited me I didn't. They didn't know who. I was right, that's what I thought Invited me to breakfast and said you're on our big plan. We've got a big runway here of all these things we've got to hit and we've seen all the things that they've been hitting and when the time is right. And we spent about two years just like working on how this would fit and what we would need and bring it in. But we live in the best time to be a Bronco period, and I've been a Bronco since 1990. So there have been some good times, but he is the leader that he appears to be. He is the. I mean he messaged me before before I came in today saying you're gonna love it. He's so creative, his questions are so good. You're gonna have a great time. I mean, he's engaged in this and I wouldn't think this would be at his level of uh, of attention.

Speaker 1:

Yeah it uh, I don't know. I've been around a long time different sectors of medicine and politics and business I don't know that I've ever met a guy quite like him. I think the motor is one thing, a lot of people that work hard, but I think the vision on the front end and then the clarity in which he kind of communicates plans to everyone, and it's just dang inspirational. I mean he just drives you to want to be better and be part of something bigger than you are. It's pretty remarkable. I think, to your point, sometimes we go so hard at life that you don't appreciate what's happening right here in front of you. And I think, frankly, with him and just where he is and his drive and what he sees, I hope he knows how much he means to this community right now. I mean sincerely.

Speaker 1:

You look at what's happened in a very short time and what we're on the precipice of doing as a community, and Boise State is the front porch of the state. Yep, I mean, I know I mean Sorry, vandals, but yeah, it just is. I mean and I, everywhere I go when I travel, it's oh, boise State, right, yeah, boise State, boise State, boise State, the brand I mean. And then you look at just the last few years and everything, including what you're doing, and it's not just football, it's not just basketball, it's not just the major sports.

Speaker 1:

If you look at the women's sports, if you look at soccer and your stuff.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1:

It's across the board.

Speaker 2:

And he supports it all. Yeah, he does, and he will deflect and say, well, he's got a great team around him. But there are three things that he has directly taught me that I use every day. One is that he says it's his obligation to provide his group attitude, energy and work ethic every day. If he does those things, he knows he's doing a good job as a leader. Right, and those are plastered on my monitor at work, right?

Speaker 2:

The other thing is that his three years up or out philosophy which I don't think you guys talked about, but I've caught it on other podcasts when he was climbing ladders. He's like I have to change where I. I've got three years to like, absolutely magnify this position that I'm in so that it becomes something bigger, or that I am wanted somewhere else, and that's a big part. So I'm thinking of my own life on that three-year clock. How can I turn this into something? How can I go from one assistant coach to three assistant coaches? How can we add positions? How can we add scholarships? Where can we grow to to borrow against Spencer? Where are we add positions? How can we add scholarships? Right? Where can we grow to to borrow against Spencer, right? Where are we growing to? Those are huge ones to me and there's a piece of evidence that this place is special. He's going to be the most sought after AD anywhere we better get used to. You know people showing interest in him and he's got to give some respect to those offers or it puts Boise State in a bad position.

Speaker 2:

I don't know who it would be Texas calls. I mean that would be the big one. I don't know that. That would be his mothership, but everybody will tell you the grass isn't bluer on the other side. I mean, we see Dirk here in town. He wants to be a part of it. He could be a coach anywhere, right. We see Chris coming back all the time. He's standing on the sideline. The grass isn't bluer. This is an extra special space and we are in the golden age right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, well said Amen. I mean, I just it's, it's, you know, enjoy every moment of it. The president search is really interesting. It is look at, you know just, the campus and research and the growth and where it's headed, the importance of higher education to a community, to a state, and then on the athletic side, and you put both of those together with the brand and the location and the beauty of campus and it's just, it's amazing. And you talked a little bit about Custer. You go back to those days. I mean people don't remember the Great Recession.

Speaker 1:

It's like it never happened Right, and it was so vivid still in my mind, just how dark and deep and ugly it was 2007, 2008, kids.

Speaker 1:

That's when it was. It was horrific and this community was just crippled. And at the time here was Bob Kustra, like just busting at the seams and saying, hey, we're going to do this, and coming across the river with computer science. I remember going into it was crazy because Amy Mall who's still there right having the vision to pull that department off campus and put it in downtown in our building and it was not easy. I remember going to some of those early meetings and, like some of the tenured professors, saying what we're doing, what?

Speaker 2:

It'll never work. It's too far away.

Speaker 1:

It's too far away. We solved all the problems and now you look at the campus and the growth and how it all fits in the city. There's just so many amazing things about it and I think you think of what it means to the families of Idaho and the kids that grow up here and you can stay here. You don't want to go anywhere else. You want to go to Boise State. That's all happened. It's happened over a period of time with tremendous leaders. People follow people. That was a big preamble to my next question.

Speaker 2:

Okay, it's a great preamble.

Speaker 1:

One of the things that, when your name comes up, everyone brings up is you are one of those transformational leaders. You inspire people and just today, being around you, it's pretty infectious. What are your principles of leadership and what drives you, motivates you, you, you. It's pretty infectious. What are your principles of leadership and what drives you, motivates you. It's thoughtful. So there's something to be learned here today for us being with you.

Speaker 2:

Well, let me be completely transparent. I started this job when we transitioned into esports and that was going to be my full-time gig. It was a year where I still taught some classes. Then I was getting buyouts of some of my courses so I could put more time into it. Everybody supported my decision. It was Gordon Jones who said let's take you from clinical associate professor to head coach, right, which means I set aside any tenure and promotion. I left the academic track completely and I became staff. I went from nine months to 12 months. Right, this was his vision. It was a little bit scary.

Speaker 2:

I realized pretty quickly within the first year and a half that while I loved being around the students, I had no real training in how to be a head coach, and not in the X's, no's part of head coach. But how do you get students from one place into another place? How do you get them ready? How do you get them to not argue with each other? Where's that culture come from? And I just had to go to work. I realized I'm the problem. We haven't won any Mountain West titles except in Rocket League. You know, we got to get better at recruiting. I got to fix me right and I would argue that that is that self-improvement that you see in the academic. Well, excuse me, the athletic you know compound all the time. It comes from Jeremiah through Cody and that whole group. So I started studying every football coach.

Speaker 1:

I could.

Speaker 1:

So it's interesting, as you say this, I'm going to interrupt you as we go through this, I think there's some things to learn here, but I'm around a lot of people sometimes this idea that you never stop growing, you never stop looking for your weaknesses and you say I am going to improve and become. Yeah, I'm going to become what I want to be by doing each day what I want to become. Right, right, and so for you it was I'm going to grow as a leader, I'm going to grow as a coach. People follow people. Yes, I got great examples around me, but I need to become something right, yep.

Speaker 2:

That me, but I need to become something right, that's powerful. I need to become more than I am, and that's a common theme on this conversation with all the folks I think Carolyn's one more recently talking exactly about that what can you become? She's become an amazing mentor and leader, right, it's not just the doing of the thing, and that becomes a responsibility of everybody who improves enough is to share. You can't keep that secret. So I just started reading, consuming multiple times, marking up copies of every coaching book. There were a couple that were really strong for me the Urban Meyer Above the Line book when he was at Ohio State, because he identified culture as something you teach. So these are the principles you believe in, and he uses Tim Kite's philosophy, as do I, in just the way we prepare our students.

Speaker 2:

So gamers, despite what people would think, there's no vaping in mom's basement of this group. They're all a National Honor Society 4.0 students. I mean we recruit the absolute best of the best as students who happen to be amazing gamers, but some of them came in with sports but we didn't give them like, here's our culture, here's what we do and we don't do. We don't blame, complain, defend. We always look for where we can take responsibility or accountability. Let's own this right and that's. I mean that's what Spence does with football and they have a definite culture. I mean that's what Spence does with football and they have a definite culture. I mean he's even said it yesterday.

Speaker 2:

Right Is that? Is that we're we're gonna. We're gonna reap what we sow, and right now we're sowing everything we're going to need later in the season. And you have to have that message. And I learned that the hard way after a few years of you know, some frustrated students cause we weren't hitting the levels that we did. What I look for now when we're trialing or actually trying out players that are coming from high school, is how frustrated and disappointed can we get them? Because I want to know what's our starting position with discomfort because they're going to have a lot of it. It's a strange flex, but we've lost more national championship games than anyone else in the PEC has ever played in. Now we've won six, but we've lost five times where we thought we were going to bring home the trophy, and some of those are quite painful. I mean the video piece that you saw recently. We lost a ball state on the biggest stage there is, and you need to know that you have the right people on there. If that happens, what happens then? Right.

Speaker 1:

So winning and losing are all part of a culture and you have to do both of them the right way, or it's kind of a waste of everybody's time do you ever um, as, as a head coach, um you know the responsibility you have, the privilege you have of interacting with these young people and teaching them about life, and and and the principles that will make them successful in whatever they choose to do later on. Do you ever think about how profound that is?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I probably. Of all of my peers in the coaching circle, many of them are at more of that ambitious stage. They don't have a lot of self-reflection and I'll get choked up. Yeah, so you got me. You got me, put this one on the reel. But I get choked up. Being on stage You'll often see nowadays kind of a huddle, either before or after, because that group of people will share that one singular moment together and carry it for the rest of our lives and no one else will know what that feels like except us All.

Speaker 2:

The struggle that we went through to get there, all the personal conflict that people want in the same seat and wanted to start but someone had to be a backup, and matches we lost, matches we won. They wrap all of that up because this is a brief stop for them. I'm the lucky one that I get to do this, hopefully another 10, 15 years. But this is a tiny little sliver in their life and they're going to go on and become the next thing. But we joke about the rings. But the nice thing about those rings is they're kind of a magical object. They're a talisman of this experience that that group of people had in that place.

Speaker 1:

And very symbolic. I mean, we need, I don't think, and I think sometimes, ambition you kind of said it ambition and drive, and where you are and you're just, it's always kind of like going for the next thing. Sometimes it's only on afterwards we reflect back. I wish I would have savored, I wish and I think, the symbolism of these things like rings yeah, so for those listening that aren't watching on YouTube, we got a whole box of championship, a box of steel and I don't know, and each one of those probably have a deep story of who was there, what it meant to you.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and that is the reason for the ring. My sweet wife Allie does not want me to wear the rings at Costco, but I think that'd be a great place, because then you stop and tell a story about the group of people who did this thing. But on the back of this one is the word endure, which is very important to this group of four students who were with the experience this year. This is a world championship ring, but it's in black because they ended up canceling the live event because of an issue. So we qualified for the world championships for the second year in a row and they didn't hold it the second year in a row.

Speaker 2:

So it was sad in a lot of ways. There were also some very profound personal things that happened within the team parents losing their home, students having these really difficult times and we all came together. We were in this thing together. I love those students more than anything, and this just reminds us. This is the thing we learned that year that we can endure hard things right, and this is the reminder to us all of us that we're not done with hard things, but we've got proof that we did some pretty amazing things when we shouldn't have been able to. That's just awesome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's what the rings do.

Speaker 1:

I just want to make sure we give you plenty of time. So are there ways that people can find out more?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

What are ways the community can get more involved in what you do? So let's talk through that. You bet you got your website.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we're on the athletic site now too, which is pretty, that's it. To me, that's surreal, right, that's surreal. It is the right home for us, culturally, if nothing else. But yeah, I mean people can jump in on the website anytime and find out. I mean, our games are about to be listed on there Pretty much when school starts. Expect Monday through Thursday. We're competing and everyone is welcome to come.

Speaker 1:

So talk about the facility and talk about people coming by. I don't know. Tell us what we need to know about your program and how the community can be more involved and help.

Speaker 2:

You bet We've got a dedicated 7,000-square-foot space downtown. I think it's actually more than that. I saw something recently it was nine so I think we calculated it wrong but as a spectator arena our players play on a stage big old, cool lights and stuff like that. We have live broadcasts. We do about 30 hours of live content a week. Everybody can watch our documentary now on KIVI. It's on every Tuesday now. Everybody can watch our documentary now on KIVI. It's on every Tuesday.

Speaker 2:

Now I think it's probably going to get a second life and a run somewhere else, which is that, to me, is really surprising. We modeled the above the line kind of videography after what they were doing with the climb, right, yeah? So I went to athletics and went oh, we should do that so we can give people an insight into what we do. We didn't know that it would make TV. By the end of the year We'd have to reformat it for TV.

Speaker 2:

But the best way that folks can interact is and even if they just don't get it, just come down and tour Noon to 9 every day. But Sunday you can just walk the esports facility downtown right, onsports facility downtown right on the corner of Capitol in front. Um, it's. It couldn't be a better location for us, right Across from Trader Joe's, and come in and see where the players practice, see the coaches in the in the meeting room, see the studio, see the arena sit in one of the theater seats which were taken out of the? Uh real theater, uh, uh country club that when they closed down the real theater country club, when they closed down the discount theater on Overland. Yeah, same seats.

Speaker 1:

That's cool. And then for kids that may be interested parents out there that have kids they're like hey, my son or daughter would love to be part of this. What's that process like?

Speaker 2:

There are 70 high schools in the state state of idaho that are playing um esports. Yeah, we host the state championships every year and recruit heavily from the state championships. That's why you want to host it, um, but yeah, from all over the state. Um that, if, if they're in school, they, uh, middle schools are now spinning up different teams in different games um, all of them T-rated games, right? No one plays Colleges, don't scholarship, at least none of the big ones in M-rated games, because high school kids can't play right. So it's team games, it's T-rated games, and they should just ask does our high school have a program? And many of them do so. There are some really good ones around, but they can come and watch and meet the players. Players will take time to talk to them. It's a good deal and they can always watch stuff on YouTube.

Speaker 1:

I just thought of one other question. So it's been with technology changing as rapidly. It does talk about the equipment kind of technology side of this and yeah a what you've kind of seen in your time as the head coach, and what? What should we expect in the future? What's what's coming down the pipe?

Speaker 2:

well. So a lot of students will say, you know, high school students say, mom, dad, I need the latest, you know uber system. But the truth is most of the games are engineered for three to five year old systems because if they to make them only for the top system, who's going to play? Yeah, right. So sorry, kids. Um, you should, yeah, you should, try to get a good one, but, um, that the most important thing. If somebody wants to play at the next level, your grades got to be good. That's the first question we ask in the recruiting process. What are your grades? Because I can, I can make you a better player. Um, if you're not already dialed into being a student, that's a, that's a wrestling match, right, you know to get kids to to the right level. So we're looking for 3.8 or higher for scholarships and we give 175,000 scholarships annually. Wow, trying to drive that number up still, yeah, I mean graduated 40 Hall of Famers so far with a relatively small budget and we're really close to global takeover.

Speaker 2:

You know it's pretty cool, but you know here's what's really. But we, you know we, here's, here's what's really cool is that we're. We're at that phase that that basketball um, uh, was before you know uh, before Larry and Karen came along and built that basketball facility for them, before you know um, you know Alan and and uh and D, you know the Nobles built that space. Right, we're at the right place to build our facility, to find our Keith and Catherine Stein, you know, to build our family. That is going to make it a generational piece for us and that's where, I mean, we want to talk about where the puck's going to be. That's where the puck is going to be. We're, we're really close, um, we're only a couple years away. We want to be a host site for um, for the usa esports olympic um training center. Right, they're going to move that around.

Speaker 2:

You know why not idaho? Yeah, well, why somewhere else is the better question, right, how about? How about us? So those are. You know, we talk about three years right, up or out. That's our up. It's like, okay, how do we position ourselves? And equipment is a huge part of that. I mean, the grass isn't bluer because we've got HP here. We've got Micron here. That's kind of too much power right. We've got people who believe in these kids and don't think that it should exist somewhere else. I mean, it came from that original message of Alabama.

Speaker 1:

I just sorry I know we're getting late into this, but what about the future of gaming? Talk about like, just where's this thing heading, with 3D and realistic stuff. You read stuff all the time of where we're headed, but what's your take on that?

Speaker 2:

It's kind of like the technology changes in other sports. There's been technology changes in rowing and swimming and speed suits and no speed suits and things like that, but the mechanics are the same. You put a team of people together. Everybody has the same tools and it's how do you work together to overcome what the opponent is trying to do? If it becomes that we're viewing these with VR goggles awesome, but the mechanics are the same. It's comms, it's preparation. It's never take a fair fight. It's what's your job, what's my job. Let's get that honed really well and we can beat anybody. As things become more mobile, maybe we'll play on some mobile platforms, as meta and these VR pieces. They're really fun. But as they become more important, maybe we'll dial into what it takes to do those things. But right now, it's a standard home PC with a 25-inch monitor. That's essentially the playing field for the majority of students and that's where the games live right now.

Speaker 1:

That's where they live right now. When is the VR stuff going to hit, do you think?

Speaker 2:

People said for a long time that once we got up over 120 frames or 140 frames a second in the goggles people would stop having motion effect. And it's up into the 240s now and it's still not everything people want. When it stops being something that distracts us, I think that it'll be more prevalent. We dabble in it a couple times a year just doing different little things, but competitively, I mean. The real tech is how do you get kids with great grades to come to Boise State? That's the part that we've been working on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's interesting that you come back around to that which it's about the kids been working on. Yeah, it's interesting that you come back around to that which it's about the kids right, a hundred percent, I think uh now that I've spent time with you. Uh, it's clear why why you've got the reputation you do, but, um, the fact that it's authentic and it's about them, and it's about this place and Boise state. Let's end on that. What does this place mean to you?

Speaker 2:

I'll get. I'll get teary again. This is, this is everything. Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, uh met my sweetheart 32 years ago. You know, on campus we cheered together. You know thank you for not outing me as as a former buster bronco, but in in 92 I was a cheerleader and I I was in heavy rotation in the suit because buster was a cheerleader back then, part of the spirit squad right, and Julie Stevens, superstar local coach for us, but Allie was a Boise high graduate. I mean, everything that I have has come from this university, all three degrees, my best friend of 32 years, four children, five grandchildren, you know everything is is got got little little blue dust on it and and so I had a chance.

Speaker 2:

A couple of years ago I got a lot of interest from another university and I it's not we can, we can say Ole Miss now were building a big um center down there and they wanted to interview me and I agreed to go down for an interview and as soon as they published it online, dr trump had listeners, uh, jeremiah had listeners. Both of them called me when they released the schedule and, uh, and and asked that the best question I've ever heard, which is what would it take for you to not get on that plane? That's what everyone would want to hear, right, that you're important enough to us, so we want to make sure that you're happy here. And, let's be honest, I was never going to Ole Miss. I mean, I don't want to take away my negotiating power, negotiating power but Allie, who supports everything I do professionally, told me that if I went to Oxford Mississippi, she'd try to visit as often as she could. So with children, grandchildren, in the state we're not very mobile, but it was the impetus that this is a really special place and people, people know it.

Speaker 2:

Um, but now it's what? What can I do, um, to get it ready for the, for the next group? I mean, I'm, I'm on the back end of of a career, still ambitious, but back end of a career. What does it look like? What is the? What does the building look like? I don't need a statue, but I would take another 40 or 50 graduates that do what ours do. I mean Kellen McGurk, and the most successful Kellen in Boise State history, was an Overwatch player for us and now he works on Capitol Hill for the legislature. I mean, I want more of those right, so Well hey, thank you.

Speaker 1:

This has been awesome. Thank you for coming on. You're awesome and for inspiring all that you do, and this has been really, really fun. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate you. This is awesome.

Speaker 1:

Let us know what we can do to help anytime. Thanks, man, you rock. Thanks everybody.