The Truth About Idaho Education with Debbie Critchfield | Ever Onward - Ep. 120

Idaho Superintendent of Public Instruction Debbie Critchfield returns to Ever Onward with Tommy Ahlquist and Roger Quarles for a candid conversation on what’s really happening inside Idaho schools.

From record K–3 reading gains to ongoing struggles in middle school math, this episode breaks down where Idaho education is improving—and where it’s still falling short.

They dive into:

• Why students often fall behind after 6th grade
• How career technical education (CTE) is making school more relevant
• The real debate around school choice and taxpayer accountability
• Why funding isn’t the main issue—how it’s used is
• The leadership gap in education and why it matters more than ever
• The urgency behind every graduating class

Debbie also shares what drives her resilience, how she approaches decision-making at the state level, and why developing strong leaders—not just administrators—is critical for the future of education.

With over 20,000 students graduating each year in Idaho, the stakes couldn’t be higher.

This is a grounded, honest look at the challenges, progress, and future of education in Idaho.

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Transcript

Welcome And Returning Guest

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Today on the Ever Onward podcast, we have a returning guest. Um again this month, our uh topic has been education, and our state superintendent of public instruction, Debbie Critchfield, rejoins us to talk about uh public education. It's only been probably six months since we've had Debbie on talking about education, but it's going to be really great today uh to interview her with Roger Quarrells and dig into all the things happening with her. Uh she has now just announced her uh our her bid for her second term as our uh superintendent of public instruction. Uh she's done an incredible job, and it's always great to to get uh her on and talk about education in Idaho. Uh Debbie Critchfield with uh Roger Quarles. Debbie, thank you so much for coming on with us.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Roger and I are really so excited to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Well, I love it. I got two good friends and people.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah. You are uh well, first of all, I've seen you a lot this last few months. It's been pretty active. No, it's been great. And I just want to start by telling how much we appreciate you. Oh, well, thanks. And I I knew you would be, but thank you. You've just been fantastic and and uh we appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Well, we want to keep it up, keep going towards the results, the things that matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah. Roger, uh I'll let you start with with uh questioning uh Debbie because you know her well.

Where Resilience Comes From

SPEAKER_02 1:29

And I would just say, like, where do you get your resilience? I'm gonna start with that because I am it it really is amazing to me to watch you in action. Always be optimistic, always be moving forward, showing up at everything. Like, where do you where does that resilience come from? Where did you get that?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Uh gosh, I'm I'm looking at your drinks and thinking, Diet Coke, plays.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

If you want one, we can get you one.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Plays a really big part of it. First of all, I love our state.

unknown 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

And I start there, and I love our communities. We have such incredible people around our state, and I love um the energy around our youth. Right before I came here, I met with the mayor's youth council of uh the city of Nampa. I was blown away by the questions that they were asking me, how engaged they were. And and something that I shared with them was the fact that they provide me the example of of what I like to share broadly. We have many people now who just think our all of our youth are headed to live in their parents' basements on, you know, playing video games all day long. But that's not really where our youth are now. They they're just so a part of it. And and so thinking about the why of why I do it, um, I it sounds so cheesy to say that I care and I really like what I like what I do, but that's that thing, you know, on hard days, you're like, oh, what am I doing with my life?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

What is, you know, what's wrong with my decision making?

SPEAKER_02 3:01

So you love Idaho, you love the kids, you love the purpose of what you're trying to do, but I'm really trying to get it like, where does your resilience come from? Did you have that growing up? Are you a stubborn person? Are you crazy lady? Like, what are you? I want to know where it comes from because you know fortitude.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So I'll tell you that um when I uh talked to my mom about this, we really do have pioneer um ancestry, pioneer heritage. Um we, you know, our families trace trace back to coming over on the Mayflower. I am convinced that whatever that strand of a strand of DNA is has really strong in me, like we're gonna do this, we're gonna fight through it, we're gonna work the hardest, no one's gonna outwork us, we're gonna make it happen, we're gonna make something out of nothing. And sometimes I wish I could close that off. Like I just want a nap. But uh it's like, nope, we're gonna work, we're gonna keep going.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Naps are for the week.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

I always say, I'll sleep when my when I'm dead. We'll sleep when we're dead.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

But you do you know what? It's a great lesson for us, because I've I Roger, what a great question. Because I've I think everyone that knows you, that's like it's work, it's it's optimism. It is, I am not going to stop until I get this figured out. But part of life is showing up like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

If you can authentically feel that, believe in your vision, and do it for the right reasons. I loved how you said focus back on the kids and the families of Idaho, and that's your mission, and you just do it every day, you're gonna get some stuff done.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Are you really present the way that you appear to be present in your conversation or are you just are you faking as it are you glazed over and somehow your eyes appear to be authentically engaged?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

But I'm really napping.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, you're napping with your eyes up.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

No, I I I like to I I I I'm showing up in in all the ways that that you can show up.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

You you do it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I don't know how you do this without that, to be honest. You know, I had people say when I was campaigning, like that was sort of the stunt of, yeah, you you know, I I said I put 20,000 miles on my car in over a year. Well, you're just doing that so that you know people will elect you. Well, no, I'm gonna keep that. And so some said, oh, she's never gonna keep that up, she's not gonna travel the state. And I've I have because I don't know how else you you inform yourself. So when right now we're in the legislative session, but you know, when policies and other bills are coming, I'm thinking, what does that look like in Ledor if we do it there? What does that look like in Sandpoint? How is that gonna work in Hansen? And if I'm not for me, if I'm not physically there and haven't, you know, having spoken to people in the classroom picturing faces, it would be much more challenging for me to get to process what this thing is gonna do uh when it's implemented.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

How do you I I'm I think about you often in regards to how do you how do you prioritize all the, you know, the great, you know what you could do? I mean, how do you how do you and all the input that you get and you receive from being authentically present and engaged, how do you put that in a bucket and then prioritize those buckets to where you establish not your platform, but you know, just your priorities? Like how does that all come together for you? Is it your convictions, like your work?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

I think it's a a couple of things. For uh my team at the Department of Education, we have established goals uh that are student-centered, and and that's a template that we can put over things. Does this help kids? Does this help support the adults who are helping kids? How do these things come together? And if they don't, then we kind of put them secondary. What are the things that we need to do first? Then when it comes down to, okay, we believe that this will genuinely move the needle, help with the outcomes. And if there's disagreements on the implementation or just ideas, something that I I say to myself in sort of negotiating how we're gonna do something, you know, if it's if it's not illegal, immoral, or unethical, then it's an opinion. So obviously I keep my legal, moral convictions about myself. But if I'm disagreeing on something that doesn't take into those things, then you and I are just gonna figure out how we make it work. So long as we start with that standard that it's moral, legal, and ethical, then we're gonna work through the other part. And it may be a little bit of what I like and a little bit of what you you don't like, but I always keep that sort of that conviction there first. And then if if it's about kids and it's good for kids and good for the adults that are supporting the kids, then we can figure it out. We can work through it.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

I think that's I think that's excellent, actually. I think that's really good. You know, Tommy's asked our our progress a couple questions on progress. I mean, is this the end of your first four-year term?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, we're coming up to the middle of the fourth year, which is like it seems like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Has it gone by quickly?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It has. How has that happened?

SPEAKER_02 7:58

I think it's to me, it's just mind-blowing because it seems like you just started.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

I know I feel like that too.

Measuring Progress In Idaho Schools

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Um Are we making progress? I mean, do you feel like I'm not talking about you specifically in your term. Let's just say for the last 10 to 15 years, do you think we're making progress educationally? And then so, if so, like in what areas? Like what what what do you see in all of your travel around the state, and then what you know are we making progress?

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

In any way that you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So 10 to 15 years, 10 years marks around the time that I was appointed to the State Board of Education.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

And that's where I got really keyed in on statewide policy, where the gaps were, things that were working, things that weren't, not only in K-12, but also in higher ed. And so I had a lot of ideas and opinions and uh took the time to learn. That's such an important part of these things that you come in and listen and learn a system. And and from that, that's where I really got motivated around K-12. I I saw some gaps in how we were teaching literacy, how we were under-resourcing and underestimating the impact and the power of career technical education. And then other areas and associated with sort of like the academic and the non-academic side. So, okay, well, those were things that you noticed, like everyone, you talk about it, and a lot of people like to point out all the things that are wrong. Well, what are you gonna do about it? I'm I'm the like, okay, push up the sleeves, let's go. Um, in the last three years, we have some significant improvement, and now we have some real data and metrics around what I just talked about. So we have a highest reading in K3 that we've had since 2007.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

We're congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yes, we're way out of the pandemic, you know. We don't really talk about that anymore, but that was a real for education.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Has that been white year term bread? Um inherit that. I've just heard no, I inherited.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

We inherited some word. So we, you know, we've we've done a significant amount of work, and this has also been a priority for the governor. And so when you have a good partner uh like the governor who can advocate for the dollars, we do the policy piece and you you bring those two pieces together. And we've had a a big push on balanced literacy, which most people would know as phonics, training our teachers, that's an important part. We've worked with our colleges and universities to train our teachers around that, aligning the dollars, having those pieces into place. So last year, our kindergarten class grew 13% from fall to spring in reading, and overall K3 reading went up 11% growth from fall to spring. It's enormous. And uh we have the highest graduation rate that we've had in 10 years. I think that's something to celebrate. And I think the the how we are talking about high school with career tech and elevating other pathways to graduation are keeping our kids engaged in ways that they haven't before.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

And that's come up a couple of times. Yeah. Congratulations. I mean, the the messaging of launch and what it meant, what it means to be successful and what that next step looks like, it has been so good. So great job.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Well, and we wanna we wanna keep, well, let me say it like this. For so many years, we've talked so um so much about getting to college, and we're st we still are. We're not saying that college is a bad choice, but in the last few years, we've really elevated the conversations around all the other things. So in a in a state like ours, where there's more opportunity than there has been for our young people, expanding how we direct them to what those doors look like. So before it was look at all the opportunities you have in front of you, but go through this one door first.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Now we're saying you can go through any of these doors.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

I don't care what your success looks like.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

And it was so self-defeating before, right? Because we were at 40, we talked about this earlier today. We were at 40% go on, right? And so you had 60% of the kids that we were gonna get to 60% of go on and this isn't for me. It just was it just was so self-defeating and it's so much better now.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

And it's for worlds that were achieving because we weren't tracking metrics on kids that went to the military. Right. Or kids that went into apprenticeship programs or went right into a job. So one of the things that I'm doing right now is um putting together a waiver that will go, a request for a waiver that will go to the federal government that will allow us to assess our high school students differently so that we can start taking credit for their good choices beyond high school and their good choices in high school.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yeah, that's I think that's broken.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

We have an opportunity that we haven't had before. You know, there's a lot of opinions on the the U.S. Department of Education. But I will say this that they have opened up some opportunities for states to be more directive around their own students' education. And they're saying, hey, if there are things at the federal level that are hindering where you want to go in the state, let us know and apply for a waiver. And I was like, oh, thank you. I'm not gonna miss the opportunity. I mean, we're gonna get something submitted uh this this spring that will ask them basically give Idaho credit for the good work that we're doing rather than here is the template that we put on your state from a federal perspective, and if you don't fit our marks, you're not doing well.

unknown 13:34

Yeah.

Math Slumps And Practical Skills

SPEAKER_02 13:35

What's what are your I mean, that's impressive, and I I love it. What are what are you still grappling with? Like what's really a struggle for you in relationship to your priorities?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Math is one where we're not where we want to be. We're gonna take that recipe of what we've done in reading and apply it uh to math. Uh many of our students really drop off about sixth, seventh, eighth grade. And I think there's a couple reasons for that. One, are we giving them the right building blocks at the elementary level so that when they kind of get to that higher level math that they feel that they have what they need. Also, junior high is a hard time to be alive. You know, students going through just puberty, adolescence, and now we're, you know, asking you to figure out math. I just there's a lot of things that kind of are um specific to that junior high-ish grade band that we want to have attention to. And then I would also add that we are having more conversations and discussions on how we give our teachers and other school personnel tools to help with the behavioral health, mental health issues uh that are facing our schools today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

You know, I talked to Tommy earlier about this, and um I've I've felt for a long time that school is irrelevant for the majority of our students after sixth grade. Uh which ties into math and really understanding the foundation you need to get into algebra and calculus, geometry calculus, et cetera. Um I think the CTE opportunities that you've created, and I think what launch is doing, all of a sudden school is becoming more relevant. And when it becomes relevant, the application side of math becomes more important, and I think kids are just inherently gonna get more excited or actually know how to use the math in a way that will directly impact them and what their opportunities are. So I think they go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Well, that's the age-old question. When am I ever gonna use this? Well, uh you hit on the Well, let's let's show you. Let's tell you what are you interested in, and then I'll show you why the math is there.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

It's been fun listening to a lot of this today because it makes you think, well, why why is that? And and if you think of the building blocks of math and how that has to connect ultimately to physics, then to like I my path was medicine. Yeah, it is a connection, but you can't build on that until you get there. And at some point, if you lose the interest along the way, you it's not till later that you go, oh, okay. Yeah that's how that applies to this thing I'm doing, and that's uh a blood vessel dilating, all this other stuff. And you so you think about CTE, what I'm trying to get to is you got these math. Math. You look at all of these, you know, walk through these CTE labs, and you're like, oh, they are applying math earlier on and making connections. It's powerful. It's like, duh.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

When did you when did you do you remember when you learned how to read a tape measure? Do you remember? Like, how old were you?

SPEAKER_01 16:35

I remember I got to. You and your grandpa. I got Tom Tom Sr. My dad, he was probably four when I was out doing work in the yard.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

It's funny you say that. My husband, like, he wouldn't he would be the most proud of me if I were to require a high school graduation element that you have to read a tape measure in order to graduate from high school. He's like, Yeah, Debbie, you're requiring all this other stuff, but can they read a tape measure?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, can they tape change?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Can they read a clock that has hands? Yeah. Can you sign something? But yeah, that that connection of if you if you're in a math class and you're you're in geometry and you're like, okay, figure out the slope. A kid's like, why am I figuring out a slope on a graph? But when you put it in an application of why I'm learning this in a CTE class, then all the lights start going off. You're like, oh, now I get why that slope is important.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Well, and let's be honest, like I loved calculus.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I excelled at it. I didn't like I got to college and didn't even go to class because my high cool high school calculus teacher Trey says was his name was so good that I just I just tested out of all my calculus in college. But it wasn't until I got down the road that I'm like, oh, I liked it, but now I understand it, right? Yeah, what I needed. It is the connection, and the sooner the connection happens, the sooner the the excitement of okay, that's why I'm learning. We're crying out loud.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

So don't you, you know, this is this is this is not to be a knock or a rub. But teachers, educators are prepared in a system to become an educator. So they have uh an expertise. Let's just say it's secondary math for the sake of this conversation. So they've gone to school, they've excelled at math, they learn math, now they're gonna learn how to teach math, and that's what they know. They've never really applied math to life outside of the classroom. That that's that's really hard to do if you've never done it.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, and knowing math and being good at it is very different than teaching it effectively. Yeah, you you can be a superstar at math and not know how to do it. Now I'm gonna share something that is not a popular statistic in some uh sectors of the state in education, but but we know that um I think it's 80% of college majors do not require math above a college algebra. But in our in our system of K-12, we are putting everyone on the engineer track of math. And so this last year, we went through and said, why don't why aren't we developing essential math standards that every student, regardless of where you're gonna go, here are the essential ones, let's focus on the essential. And then if if you want to pursue the higher level math, we have classes for you for that.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

But should every single kid be taking a calculus class? Maybe not. And if you can satisfy essential math skills in a welding class or in a carpentry class, I mean carpentry and woodworking, it's all math.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

We can we can do that over there. It's a different way to think about it.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

And it gets our kids more interested in the subjects rather than you're just gonna go to a math class. Because people say I'm a math person or I'm not a. We've literally identify ourselves as I'm not a math person. We're doing math walking through the door. We are gauging how high we are to the thing. That's math. Yeah. So but there's a lot of work to be done there.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Well, you know, I used to have math teachers in high school. Uh just say and they would everybody points the finger backwards at the teacher or the subject matter before them, and it starts in higher ed, and pretty soon we're just pointing back to the mom in the womb, and you know. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

But it's like the contractor who can't get something right because it was the framer, it was, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, exactly. But I it's just so interesting to me. You my the math teacher would say, just give me a student that can add, subtract, multiply, and divide whole numbers, decimals, and fractions, and I can teach them all the hard stuff. To your set the essential fundamental things that every kid should know. Matthew, I'm looking over there at you, man. Add, subtract, multiply, and divide, whole numbers, decimals, and fractions, and I'm pretty sure you can do it. But we get crazy on on all of this other stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Well, and and I think practical math to me would be um how how do we make sure that students students can calculate the tax on something that they're gonna buy or the percentage discount. Right. Um, you know, I remember my kids, like they'd see how much something would cost, and they're like, oh, but it's 20% out. So how much how much am I gonna save? And I'm thinking, how do you not know this? Yeah. So you you know, like those types of daily math things, which now we have a graduation requirement for uh personal or a financial literacy, yeah, was to accomplish what wasn't happening in a trigonometry class, but can we have make sure kids know how to figure out taxes? Those are things that are important day-to-day math.

unknown 21:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

What's been your biggest surprise? Your one term in, you're you just filed again. We're we're enthusiastic supporters of term two. What surprised you the most about your job?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Oh boy. I need to, I don't know. I at 2 a.m. I'm gonna come up with a really snappy answer uh for you. Because I've been around in it for so long, I don't know that there was anything that necessarily surprised me. The part that I was the least familiar with. was the actual administration of the Department of Education, which is a a job of the state superintendent to manage and administer the agency itself. So going in and how many employees are 130.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

It's it's difficult.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

So managing and you I did it. Managing the people. Yes. Managing the people that are there and what had over time about really was siloed out. There wasn't any um cross-pollinating of hey if we're working on this and this other part of of our overall department is working on it, those people were not talking to each other. So we had duplication, we had inefficiencies, we had little fiefdoms, people that part of it was the most surprising.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

How long did it take you to fix that?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I would say honestly that we are I would say a good almost three years in part of it was culture. And part of it was we are a service agency. We serve the public. We support the adults who help the kids we're not just like marking time here. And and I know bringing speaking my work ethic bringing that in like I'm going to be the first one there and usually I'm the last one out. And and I'm okay with that but I expect that same level of dedication to your job within the constraints and you know what sometimes you may have to answer a question on the weekend. Sometimes you may have to pick up the phone on a holiday. That's what we all signed up for. And and I kind of have brought that and some people don't love it and they don't work there anymore and that's okay. They've moved on some had some turnover. Oh yeah yeah and that and that's okay. Like this is the team you wouldn't be doing your job if you didn't have yeah like this is the team that we want this is the the culture that I'm bringing and if you're here boy are we going to make it great for you but if this isn't your thing then that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

So here's the difficulty of that so you we were talking about school boards you know in a four year term and being elected and who qualifies etc you know Debbie if she gets re-elected which I hope you do we'll be able to establish even more continuity. Yeah um it it's you know she took over for somebody else who took over for somebody else and so there's you know you got it's like a player that's playing for three different coaches. Yeah and you're like well this is the way I've done it and she's like well that's not the way I want it done. It makes it really difficult. And so that's the rub against the bureaucracy but I would say it's actually essential so you don't get too crazy one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Well and I think one of the good examples that is most evident in our community is you look at cities that have mayors that have time to create cultures like create vision. Garrett I mean you look at Garrett look at Tammy Tammy Kling and Nampa it just it takes a bit to get things rolling right you feel like that's the case for you like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

And I think that part is underestimated everywhere. Yeah for sure with me I naively showed up thinking that you know everyone here is just raring to go on their jobs and we're all working together and collaborating and because we're here to serve not not exactly and and so there was some tension of no this is actually how we're going to do it and this is how we are going to approach our approach it. And the other side of that for me is if I don't do that every time someone from my office is in a school or picking up a phone that is a reflection of me. Yeah and that you know we are going to be service oriented we are going to be kind we're going to be responsive we're going to be respectful all the way across the board to everyone just thanking you in advance.

School Choice And Taxpayer Accountability

SPEAKER_02 25:45

So awesome for that I don't know Tommy I'm what you you got one you want to you got something on there?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

So we've talked a lot about choice today. This is our you know our our month on education and um you know I we've we talked to uh we had uh Terry Ryan and then Jennifer here. Jennifer Swindell both fantastic people great great people um and and and you know you hear both sides of it and you'll hear the struggles public education. And then we have we've had great discussions today about rural versus more urban school districts and kind of the way our population. So so so give us your take as the school superintendent state public instruction uh on choice what what your concerns are what the positives are and what the concerns are.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I think choice is always a positive and I come from the perspective that Idaho has been a national leader in the options particularly even within the last like five years we have more options and more opportunities for moms and dads to decide what works best for their their kid I will always defend that that that's how it should be the question over the last seriously over the last three years has really centered on who should pay for that is that a responsibility of the state if I'm not accessing the public school system does the state then have a responsibility to come and supplement or or to pay for that our legislature has currently decided that yes they do. Where I get a little iffy is on the current policy. So I can support the principle of choice and the principle behind what they're trying trying to accomplish and not love every element of the policy that got put in place. So where I go on that I don't believe that the current policy has enough or really any measure of accountability when it comes to taxpayer dollars. If we have decided as a state that we're okay with a tax credit or however we we're going to support the choice question I think that it should be on the same equal footing of any agency or any department anywhere that receives taxpayer dollars. At least show where the money went. That in itself to me would dramatically change a lot of the attitudes I think those that have been against the state coming in and paying it's rested on that transparency accountability piece. So I'm hopeful that if things change within the policy itself that that can be added in in future years.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

What was the counterargument or the reason for not having that part of the original legislation? Seems like that would be something from a from a from a you know a very conservative legislature always counting dollars where they go, you would think that naturally that would be an element that they would absolutely require to have in the legislation.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

What I heard was we must trust parents they know what's best for their child that was the answer to me. Now that can be an answer but that doesn't answer to me the the initial question over the transparency piece.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I I can trust families and I can trust parents but I can we should be able to trust government too well we should be able to trust lots of people.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Can you think of any other place in a city where the the the local citizens elect someone they put their taxes into that and then the city government says just trust us we're going to spend the money just exactly how you told you we would be like what? No. We want to see what you did with the money. Now in the case of the the tax credit if you are selected to be audited and that was sort of their accountability piece was well if you're selected to be audited we want you to show us your receipts of what you did with the money. Okay but that that again is based on a a random kind of you get polled out of the mix at some point maybe you do maybe you don't and and I think for public school people that were particularly hot about the policy they're coming from the perspective of I have to post every single dollar that the state gives me on how I used that but to educate kids but for some reason this is different you know because it's parents. And maybe it is different.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah do you have thoughts on that Roger?

Funding Flexibility And Better Planning

SPEAKER_02 30:05

I've got all kinds of thoughts on it. You know the simplest one is there's a phenomenon that I've I've I've I I I've seen and I I talk about it all the time and I've never talked about with either one of you I don't believe but you know inherently in public schools in public education any Debbie I'm not knocking you or your organization but I call it OPM other people's money and so when you're dealing and I always look at it like this when you're dealing with hard-earned taxpayer money you should have the responsibility to be able to manage that with the greatest level of integrity and if you can't share that then that's an issue if you can't if you can't share that in a way that makes sense to people then you probably shouldn't do it. So uh things come up I had a I had a lady one time say in one of our meetings that oh Roger we're gonna do it it's only$50,000 and I I was kind of mortified I I really was it's only$50,000. I asked her at the meeting afterwards I said please could you not use that language again and she's like what and I said that the only$50,000 and she's like it's only I said is that your$50,000 would you put your$50 and they just we the phenomenon is it's like it's endless and it's abundant and there's always going to be more of it. So this is where I bring it back to this conversation I don't know if all parents have that same level of integrity. I don't know if all systems have that same level of integrity but fundamentally a policy to Debbie's point should be able to address how I report back with receipts or itemize whatever it is however I did it. I think that's fair I think that's reasonable and I I think we should we should do that. I I've you heard me say earlier Tom I've never seen money as an issue for increasing the opportunities for kids in Idaho never never saw it that way. I saw the way we use the money uh and what the way we what we've done with it is the obstacle um Jennifer Swindell was just in and she talked about you know over the last five six years we've increased the spending on public education about 25% which I I think is incredible. Yes teacher salaries as well teacher salaries to our conversation about rebuilding the middle class and what can we do and this is one way we can do it. Is that equated to the outcomes I think that our legislature and you have been hopeful for the investment is it equating to the outcomes that you're hopeful for no um not but I but I but I think but I have an answer as to to the why I I say no there were things that we needed to to invest in that the teacher piece is important.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Right. And that's the bulk of the budget gets uh directed to teachers in a school and that's okay because we're in the business of teaching kids I'd be more concerned if all the money went to something else we we want the money you know going to the teachers. We have a a 1994 funding model that has very restrictive line items related to that we have a 21st century classroom now we are very different. So we have these with these parallel things where we're putting money in into a a system into a formula that is not meeting the needs of today it's too rigid it's too prescriptive so when you hear schools say we need more money, what they're really telling you is we're not getting money where we need it now.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

We need it more we need it we need more flexibility and flexibility so that we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Now the other part of that no amount of money will compensate for a lack of a plan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

So we see leadership so is that prescriptive nature of those funds is that statute driven? Yes yeah so it's statute driven to where what buckets it has to fall in. Oh which if you think again there's all sorts of hypocrisy that happens in lots of things in life but if you're really worried about the local and local can you know should trace the dollars but giving the flexibility so it's it's interesting when we trust local and we we don't yeah it's a it's a whole thing and you know for the last two years I've asked our legislature to ease up on some of those categorical items and say look if you don't want to just shake it all up and hand it to them could we take some of those areas and allow them flexibility within light items?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

No. But then at the same breath I hear why are you not more competitive um with other you know private things.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

And why do they say no?

SPEAKER_02 34:49

They because they want it spent how they want it spent it's because at one point in time they made a concession to allocate the resource and they say by God if I'm going to give you this resource you're gonna spend it on this and nothing else. And so it was the accountability piece legislatively and I'll just take it back to highly ineffective leadership and spending at the local level that forced the lawmaker's hand to line item the money. And so I used to tell our superintendents I'm like you guys should need to blame yourselves. I mean you really this is this is to Debbie's point if we can't consistently communicate how our deployment of these resources are getting us to where we want to go if we can't effectively share that with our lawmakers then we don't deserve any flexibility. But the lawmakers made concessions over the years one time one point at a time a lot of time it was driven by a lack of a relationship with a teachers union or an administrator's union that said we're gonna make this concession one time but you're gonna spend it here and we're gonna put it statutorily that it's a line item you can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

And we're so I guess I wouldn't even mind the um the guardrails around the line items if the line items were accomplishing the needs that we have today. The classroom is different and it's different even from five years ago. I think you know COVID accelerated really where we were kind of going as a society anyway particularly around delivering education. So you take the the two things that I I can look at a district who's successful in their outcomes and their growth and their achievement and I can tell you right out of the gate that they have a plan, that their leader follows the plan and they align their budget to their plan. It's not the book that you bought no it is it is not your Bell schedule it's not that you started in August and you're finishing before Memorial Day. That is not it is absolutely making a plan of goals towards your growth and achievement in a in a period of time what are the targets you train your teachers and you put your money towards the plan and that's where you get the success.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

So think about the inconsistency Tommy in this idea of either a publicly elected school board or a average a district superintendent with an average tenure of 2.5 years statewide. So here's my plan Debbie you just think about the unique nature of governing in that environment what our legislators and what Debbie has to deal with she approves a plan, superintendent leaves, they get three new school boomers they screw that plan and now the lawmakers are looking at her going you promised that this plan would work and then it's this it's an environment that I don't know how you get around it. I I just don't know how you do it.

Building Leaders Beyond Certification

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Well I to me it it has to start with the leadership uh component and I I want to develop leaders now this will sound awful for a former superintendent I mean I've got thick skin let me have it I'm less interested in developing a superintendent and I'm more interested in developing a leader. Amen the leader can lead on the plan you you can have people that know how to you work with your board in your community determine what are your goals and how are we going to get there. But that leadership piece that that isn't a part of the certification that you take no and and so if I can get the leadership part to get on board with here is the recipe for how we achieve then it shouldn't matter if your board term's over or if 30% of your your teachers are leaving you know every three years we have this plan and the leader keeps that going.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

To me that leadership piece has been um undervalued across the state can you can you think of a scenario where you create some flexibility like we have in charters about what it means to be a superintendent?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Funny that you bring that up so we have um sitting well ready to be voted on in the Senate floor I worked last year on some legislation that would open up similar to charters would open up options for traditional public schools to hire leaders that have come from executive level or retirement military nonprofit business that if you've had five years of executive level experience we can teach you education.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

But if you're bringing that leadership piece and so it would allow boards to have the ability to interview non yes non-traditional education types and then mentor them for three years on uh what teacher evaluations look like I'm I'm pretty sure you know we could figure that out we had people falling apart um higher ed I'm just I'm gonna throw it out there higher ed is gonna have a complete meltdown they did and I got I mean I got a lot of nasty grams um saying you know how dare you know why would you want this to be your legacy? And I've really scratched my head on that because I've thought why have we not focused on developing leaders less about the change your curriculum. And in and in places around our state they they have a better chance of being successful if they can look in their local community.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

I was just gonna I was just gonna say that like it if that's not congruent with what is actually happening out there where you have leader in a community that might be the perfect fit button stay there. That might not check the boxes.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Well but let me just tell you so there's other pieces of this and Debbie knows. So in chapter 33 of our Idaho code you know administrators school school superintendents and school administrators that are certified by an institution of higher ed have in local parentis the same rights as a parent meaning you have the same rights and responsibilities as a parent there's a pretty comprehensive piece that goes into that legally you take Tommy off the street who's an incredible human being may not understand your rights and responsibilities as a leader and it may not jive with what the state at one point in time suggested is essential. So it has merit I firmly believe in it. I can see all the potential pitfalls and what people are going to point you know point at and poke holes in um but I I do believe that the leadership component I Debbie I've said this for a long time and I I probably said it to you before but without some sort of foreseen function or accountability piece to the leadership aspect of it we're really not going to get to where we want to go locally at the local level.

Strategic Plans With Real Consequences

SPEAKER_00 41:30

So let me share this we have more legislation that that we worked on last summer. Dave Senator Dave Lind is helping us um shepherd it through the legislation would require every district in charter to have a strategic plan. Now for the charters we know they have a performance certificate so we've we've kind of massaged a little things to make that work for them but essentially every district and charter would have to create their strategic plan and send that we want to update an existing report that's meaningless at the state level that showed their trajectory for three years of how they're going to improve math and reading within their school district and year one if you're not accomplishing your own goals that you set the state is not going to come in and tell you what those are you should be doing that but not everyone does then the state can come in and we're gonna have a little conversation with you and say hey what happened we can see that you know you didn't quite get to your goals how do we help support you in doing that and you know first year is um help that way conversation year two you still have not achieved any goals at all and you're on your second year of not helping kids and not helping then the state our office we're gonna have a little more control over some of the decision making how what are you doing with your budget? What what does your teacher training look like? Some of the things that we know are very important. Year three you have still not achieved anything at all the state is going to come in with a little bit more of an influence on some of the decision making we're not gonna rip the rug out from under you and take all of your money but we're gonna help you do a better job with the money that you've been given. I believe that that type of help and support is critical for our underperforming schools I have not had any ability when I see things that are dramatically off in certain places to go in other than just say hey how can we help you and then it's like we're good no thank you. Now we're gonna have an ability should this make it all the way through and we work with the governor on this as well.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

I mean just hearing that it's like well this is this was the kind of the foundation of No Child Left Behind I mean it really was in schools of schools in the child left behind and we hate this Debbie like not exactly but so I sat Debbie I sat through as a superintendent because when I went to call Well, every single of our school was not making adequate yearly progress. So I had 10 schools failing on every indicator, which they were. Um, I sat through the meetings with the other 35 superintendents that the state was offering help for. And, you know, I mean, just honored, a big chunk of that group was sleeping through the sessions, and there was no accountability of whatsoever for them to behave differently to produce a different outcome.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

But we still are just giving you the same money and saying, Same money, crossing our fingers, same certificate, crossing our fingers and hoping that you're gonna do better the next year. That's not good enough for me. And I don't think that's good enough for our own. I know that about you.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

No, I know that about you. You know, so at the foundation, I and I probably shared this with you before, but for years we we looked at trying to fix problems with resources and teams of people to try to fix things. I got us off that reformation mindset. I mean, it took a while, but I had to get us off of trying to reform everything. I'm like, who wants to be reformed? Do you want to be reformed, Tommy? How about you? I maybe my waistline a little bit more. I want that reformed. And I got us into a creation mindset. And so the creation approach was how do we get behind and accelerate opportunity or accelerate people, leaders, that really drive new opportunities? And it was a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Feels different.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

We weren't disappointed. Yeah, it was that was our driver behind school choice. And it was rather than trying to fix systems that don't really want to be fixed, we didn't have you as a leader. But why would we do that every day? Why wouldn't we say, is there a unique, different, interesting way where we can try to tackle this problem that doesn't involve having trying to reform people? And all of a sudden leaders started popping up saying, I'll give it a shot. And that was the impetus and driver around school choice for us.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Some of this is a mindset.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Um is also having leaders in certain places that are not saying it's okay if we don't achieve. Oh, it's all right, don't worry about it, we'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Yeah, we'll outless the superintendent.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah, every year we um graduate 20,000 students on average from an Idaho high school. I think about that. Like I feel an urgency. Every year when we're not getting it done for kids, I'm like, oh geez, that's 20,000 kids that just left our system. I hope we did right by them. And I look at our little kids. So one of the um critiques of this strategic performance plan uh that we put together that we want to have in law was that, well, three years, that's that's too short. Three years?

SPEAKER_02 46:40

I mean, what about three months? What about three weeks? These kids are going across the room.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah, if we're gonna have a kid like leave elementary school and not have grown, you shouldn't be okay with that either.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

So is this legislation gonna come through this year?

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah, it it's um has passed out of the the house and uh we're we're getting it over into the Senate.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

This is what I love about her this sense of urgency. You mean literally you you want to play long game. I mean, getting, I think, to where Debbie wants to go is a long game. But every single year, 20,000 kids enter and or leave our system, and we hope and pray that we did everything that was right to get them there. And and in you the I think if we really talked about it, the three of us and all of our friends, the parents of children, would say the same thing. That isn't how we think in the aggregate in public schools. It's like I showed up, I did my best, they either got it or they didn't. And I'm not saying all teachers, but it's really hard to think about a sense of urgency about every kid walking across that stage or leaving school prepared for what's next. And not that we can prepare them for everything, but we can prepare them with the fundamentals and the basics.

Urgency For Every Class Of Kids

SPEAKER_00 47:55

If we don't, what are we doing? Like, why why do we exist? Right. And you know, the the the science and the research shows that a student that gets behind two years in a row, they never recover. Think about that. Two years in elementary school is all it takes. They don't recover. And so, you know, in the some of the criticisms of, oh, you want us to turn in a three-year plan, I was like, you're lucky it wasn't a one-year plan. You're lucky it wasn't that because uh, you know, all all of the factors point. I mean, we don't want our kids to get behind. Let and and how do we help you do that? Not in a punitive way, not in an embarrassing way. Uh, but we're we're here to support you in getting your plan done.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Well, anything we can do to help, you just let us have to do that. Well, just talking about it is is is great. You're I I always say this people follow people. Yeah. And and you get a dynamic leader in in place and you watch things happen, and it's been great having you on today to talk about some of the wins. But what I love about you, Debbie, is this insatiable appetite.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Well, that's why I asked her about her resilience.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Yeah, it's just like coming. We are not stopping. We are going to grind through this, and and we need it's a curse. I want to keep going.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

It's a curse.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Thank you for your service. Oh, thank you. Thank you for your example.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

What an honor to get to do this right now. I'm gonna take a turn and I'm gonna do everything I can possibly do during my turn. And then I want to just I want to be able to walk away at some point and say, I I did the best and the most that I could and pass that on to the other.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

In your quiet moments when you're ready to s to give up. Just think about the the families, the individual families. Thank you. Yeah, and the generational difference you're making in people's lives. And yeah, God bless you and all you do, and let us know we can help. Thanks for coming on today.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Yeah, I love the the shot of positivity. I needed it.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Yeah, you of course, and we all need it, but you're you're in a tough, tough job. So yeah, I'm saying thank you and congratulations, and just keep doing what you're doing. That's why I was that's just keep being resilient. Keep being yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

I'm gonna do it. One more day, I got in me.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Yeah, whatever. Probably two, four and a half more years. Thanks, Debbie.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Thank you. Thanks, everybody.