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Ever Onward Podcast
The Ever Onward Podcast is your go-to business podcast, offering engaging discussions and diverse guests covering everything from business strategies to community issues. Join us at the executive table as we bring together industry leaders, experts, and visionaries for insightful conversations that go beyond the boardroom. Whether you're an entrepreneur or simply curious about business, our podcast provides a well-rounded experience, exploring a variety of topics that shape the business landscape and impact communities. Brought to you by Ahlquist.
Ever Onward Podcast
Why Public Lands Matter to Idaho with Nick Fasciano & Dan Waugh | Ever Onward - Ep. 122
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Public lands are a defining part of Idaho — shaping our lifestyle, economy, and identity.
In this episode of the Ever Onward Podcast, Tommy Ahlquist sits down with Nick Fasciano, Executive Director of the Idaho Wildlife Federation, and Dan Waugh, Executive Director of the Idaho Recreation Council, to break down why public lands matter to Idaho and the growing conversations surrounding their future.
With more than 60% of the state made up of public land, the impact stretches far beyond recreation. From hunting and fishing to hiking, motorized access, rural economies, and conservation, these lands play a critical role in how Idaho functions today — and what it becomes moving forward.
This conversation covers the recent national debate around selling public lands, the importance of keeping them public, and the real challenges tied to management, funding, wildfire, and access.
You’ll also hear perspectives on how hunters and anglers drive conservation, why outdoor recreation has become a multi-billion-dollar industry in Idaho, and what needs to happen to better manage these lands for future generations.
Topics include:
• Idaho public lands and federal land ownership
• Outdoor recreation economy and growth
• Hunting, fishing, and conservation funding
• Wildlife management and habitat health
• Forest management and wildfire challenges
• Rural county impacts and funding gaps
• Motorized vs. non-motorized access
• The debate over selling public lands
• The future of public land policy in Idaho
Whether you spend time in the outdoors or simply care about the future of Idaho, this episode provides important context on one of the most impactful issues facing the state today.
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Why Public Lands Matter In Idaho
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the Ever Onward Podcast. Really excited to do an introduction for the next couple of episodes we're going to do. Many of you have heard a lot about public lands recently. So I wanted to do a couple of episodes on what it means to our state of Idaho and try to get a couple of experts in here to explain some of the controversies that have been going on recently with sales of that public land, what it means to recreation, to our economy, to the great state of Idaho. Many of us have our own experiences with public lands and what it means to us personally with our families and the enjoyment. And certainly in Idaho, it's a big deal. So a little bit of an introduction to the topic before I introduce the guests that we're going to have on for the next two episodes. Idaho has over 60% public lands. So it's approximately 20 million acres of forest service, 12 million acres of Bureau of Land Management Services. And then there's also two and a half million acres of state-owned endowment land. And you've probably heard of the land board or the land trust. And I'm sure we'll get into that too, the state lands that's owned here in Idaho. On a percentage basis, only Utah, Nevada, and Alaska have more public land. So clearly this is a big issue for us to lead on in the country. And I think our congressional delegation has done a great job of that. And you'll hear uh in government, our our governor, Governor Little, and his team and the legislature talk about public lands uh quite a bit. Why it's so important is um it drives a multi-billion dollar outdoor recreation economy in Idaho. Estimates range a little bit, but it's from anywhere from $4 billion to $7 billion a year are spent in Idaho on recreation, and that is largely because of public lands. Um we'll bring up some maps um during this episode's, uh, but but if you look at the map of just Forest Service lands and and and just look at what this means to the state of Idaho, uh it is a significant part of Idaho between BLM land, um uh the state land, and then the Forest Service. So a really important topic for us to understand. There are several misconceptions about public lands that we'll talk about. Um how they're managed, the cost of maintaining them, um, state versus federal, um, a lot of uh how do you manage these forests? Uh we'll talk a lot about fires and and how those need to be managed. And again, uh I think I'm going to learn as much as the listeners because there's just so many uh deep issues, and that's why I wanted to get some guests on that really really understood this issue. Uh there's a lot of big debates going on right now uh in the nation. I think uh uh most recently with budget concerns and our deficit concerns are should we sell, should the federal government be allowed to sell some of these public lands? And that is met with some significant controversy. I think uh Utah had suggested having some of those lands uh sold. Um the problem with that is once the federal government uh loses control over those lands, is what happens to them next? If they become privatized or can the state sell them off and access to those public lands, which is part of our national uh treasure. Uh there's also a lot of uh uh questions about management of wildlife, and that's uh another big part of what we're gonna have. Uh Idaho, if you think of uh part of our heritage, it is hunting, it's fishing, it's enjoying these, it's the rivers, rafting, hiking, you think of the Satus, all of those things we're going to get into uh today with our guests. Um but but it it's a big issue. Uh it's going to, as as we have changing population, people flooding into Idaho. Um, I think people coming from states that don't have public lands like we do, um, you know, we always pick on the Californians, but as they get here, a lot of education will also need to happen on what public lands mean to Idaho as we have a changing demographic because of in migration. Um, I wanted to get someone on that could really speak to this, someone that really resonated, was fun, uh listened to. And so I'd be be but able to get to know Nick uh Frasciano a little bit. He is the executive director of the Idaho Wildlife Foundation Federation, Idaho Wildlife Federation. Uh Nick is an avid hunter. He learned how to hunt as a young man, uh, and then he came into the conservation of public lands work through the hunting world, so hunting background into public lands and what it means to hunt on those public lands. He publishes articles in outdoor life and backcountry journal. Uh he's a very active writer and thought leader in this um in this uh topic matter. Um he is the former head of the North American Venture Capital uh at Mercer and one of the largest alternative asset advisory firms. And uh he's got a diverse background and it's very influential in the state as it as it uh relates to public lands. So Nick will be my co-host for these first two episodes over the next two weeks. And um I can't wait to get his perspective on this and again, really just listen and understand and try to bring uh more awareness to this important issue for our state. Uh, our first guest um with Nick on this first podcast will be Dan Waugh. Uh Dan um is a great guy. You'll you'll love hearing him. Uh he is the Idaho Recreation Council Executive Director. Um, again, an avid outdoors outdoorsman, um advocate for outdoor recreation on public lands. And he is uh currently also the vice chairman for Idaho the Horse Board. Um he's also a Sawyer instructor, and he is an incredible uh outdoorsman and loves this state, and also will be a subject matter expert for us to learn from. I'm excited for these episodes uh today. Um, excited to bring you another topic that I think will be interested, uh interesting to our listeners. We don't do this enough. We're gonna do it a little more often now, but we want to thank uh all of our listeners. Been doing this a long time and and uh and as I go places people express their appreciation. If you're a listener, um do us a favor and like and share this podcast. And if you really want to help us out, go on uh and give us a review uh on uh whatever outlet you listen to this podcast on. Uh really appreciate you listening and um and excited to bring you this new content on public lands for the next two episodes. Dan and Nick, this is gonna be fun. Yeah, I'm gonna learn a lot today. Looking forward to it. I'm ready
A Family Moment Outdoors
SPEAKER_02to learn from you guys.
SPEAKER_00It's uh a topic a lot of people kind of get surprised by.
SPEAKER_02Hey, we we gotta we gotta we gotta start with just because we I think it was pretty authentic. Like I just spent last weekend up in McCall with my grandkids. Yep, beautiful. And I'm telling you what, like we took an old down tree and we made it into a into a pirate ship. Right. And it had a plank and a mast, and so cool. They're six and four, and we built weapons, and it was just like I'm I don't want to start getting, I don't think I'd get emotional with you guys. Oh, yeah, I mean, but I'm like, I'm like out there and it was beautiful, and we're like throwing rocks in the Pet River and we're walking along this trail, and I just like like go, how on earth do we live? Yeah, how do we live in a place?
SPEAKER_00There's nowhere like this on earth. Nope, nope, there's not it's it's a part of our DNA when you really think about it. Like, I mean, you're you're talking about the two greatest resources a state has, it's people, and then it's land that we're so graciously allowed to explore and and do things on, whether it's build a pirate ship or I get a little corny sometimes, so I'll um I'll start there.
SPEAKER_02I I think of my life and my love for like the country and God and like our part in the world. Yep, it started in the outdoors. It starts in the dark, it starts when you're looking up at stars, it's it the smells. Oh, absolutely. I mean, like when I just walk along the Pet River and I just smell the trees, and you know, we're we're sitting there and I look, I look out in the meadow the one night, and there were like six elks right there, and we're like we're like 200 yards away from elk, and I'm with my little grandkids, and we're like sneaking through the bushes looking at them. Yeah, and and like I I think about that that I want my grandkids, I want their kids, I want them to experience this because that's that's why you love the country. And I think of electronics now, and I think of how how distracted we are. And it worries me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it worries a lot of us. Yeah. I mean, and that's I mean, the entire public lands topic, I mean, is is there's a lot of esoteric stuff that goes into this discussion, but the where I always like to start is just people spending time out there, yeah, because it it really is magical. And I think from from a lot of us come at it from a sense of a deep sense of patriotism, which only escalates the more time you spend in our public lands. And we are blessed to live next to a lot of public lands and a lot of places that we can go explore that comes with its own challenges, but boy, is it beautiful.
Meet Nick And Dan
SPEAKER_02So uh before we get rolling, just kind of briefly, uh I I did an intro to you guys, but just tell us a little bit about each of you and kind of your background and then and then a little bit about your love for this topic, and but but a little bit about so they get to know you a little bit. Okay. Nick, you want to go?
SPEAKER_03Sure, I can start. So um I I came into, I mean, I I uh done kind of a lot of things uh over the course of um of my life. I came up in the sciences and moved into finance uh after that, worked in venture capital and private equity for about 10 years. But I started hunting um about a decade ago. Uh and really kind of a couple things brought me into that. One was sort of the food aspect and the adventure, and I not had exposure to sort of our North American model of wildlife conservation before. But a lot of it was just the recognition of um the need to engage in more activities that bring about some more national cohesion, right? I mean, hunting is one of the only things that a tech CEO and a day laborer can be doing right next to each other, and they're on the same playing field, and it is a incredibly unifying experience. And that's before you start doing it, and I just fell in love with it, and it's the greatest thing in the world. But through that, I um, you know, almost all of my hunting, tons of it happens on private land too. Most of it happens on public. And I I it is an avenue for exploration. Uh, you you get to see the abundance that that we have out there, and um, that's what that's what brought me into the into the the whole ecosystem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I was uh born and raised here, grew up everything from you know 50cc dirt bike out in the awaites when I was little. And uh my parents always kind of raised me to serve, joined the military, actually skipped school on my 17th birthday to enlist in the military pre-9-11. Um, then that of course went down. And uh I ended up getting wounded on my sixth deployment. And eventually I got moved to headquarters and was managing training programs and all these different aspects of that for the entire uh branch of service, but as well as for uh other DoD entities that were doing that career field. So I had some some idea of if you want to make a difference, you have to go after policy, things like that. So got out in 2015, came back to Idaho because it's home. Uh I've lived in some amazing places, but I was coming home. Uh got back here, saw the state of public lands, uh, the mismanagement, lost opportunities. I brought my kids here specific to that and went, well, I'm gonna volunteer. Quickly realized I could do more, started partnering and being like a Sawyer instructor. So I'm a Sawyer instructor for the Forest Service for chainsaws and teaching people to run saws safely. And even that wasn't enough. And so I got more involved in state politics, trying to promote programs, trying to solve solutions, um, and met my predecessor and partnered with her for several years. And when she asked if I wanted the position that I'm in, I was kind of caught off guard and surprised and actually was like, I don't think so. Not in the beginning. I was a little like, nah, no, no, I believe in it. I wondered when Sandra would come up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she's amazingly we're like five minutes into the yeah. So let's just pause. I don't know that she'll ever listen to this. I don't know, but I love her so much.
SPEAKER_00I mean talking about Sandra Mitchell. Yeah, hugely instrumental in Idaho outdoor recreation. Yeah, and and um for decades. Yes, 34 years. 34 years before that was 12 years for Senator Sims. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Recently retired, but what what an absolute Idaho gem, absolutely, whatever word you want to use. There's no there there will never be. No. God broke the mold Sandra Mitchell.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she has done things for this state and this growing economy of outdoor recreation. She's done things that, you know, and we're seeing the needle move now here in the state as well as the national level, with you know, a couple Idaho boys in uh DC looking out for the Forest Service, you know, under Secretary Borin and Chief Chief Schultz. And so the needle's moving, and she, you know, she ran with a lot of things and and got a lot of things done and protected a lot of people's ability to go out and go for a hike, go ride a dirt bike, float a river, use a jet boat in a river, ride a snowmobile. So she's and one of the kindest, most genuine, authentic absolute planeters.
SPEAKER_02So Sandra, if you're listening, we love you. Yeah. Well, I I hope we got there. We got there quick.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I have uh I always say I have big shoes to fill, and she says, Well, I have little feet, but yeah, you still wore you left big tracks in the sand that I'm uh trying to cover down on. But yeah, it's uh it's a privilege to be able to do this and you know, focus on an industry that I think up until recently I've heard different people say it, whether it be lawmakers or even private citizens, but they'll go, Oh, yeah, we know people like to go outdoors and play. Well, the reality is outdoor recreation is a part of our DNA. I mean, if you grew up in the West, like it truly is a part of our DNA. It's to me, I always put it, it's the same as a rancher speaking about how the dirt that he farms or or the grasslands that his cattle graze is a part of his life. Well, ask a hunter how important hunting is, a fisherman, how important it is to them, someone that rides a dirt bike, someone that hikes, someone that rides a horse. It's a part of us.
SPEAKER_02So let's let's with both of you, let's tackle probably I think what's happened recently. So, first of all, I I gave some statistics before we came on 60% of Idaho's public land.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And um, I think uh only Utah, Nevada, and Alaska have more, but but this means a lot to us. And there are some states that have literally zero. I mean, it it goes from zero to where we are. Yep. So it matters to us uniquely and it matters to the West.
The Fight Over Selling Public Land
SPEAKER_02Um, there was an idea recently, the well, maybe with our budget issues and our deficit, maybe we should take some of the public lands and sell them, right? Or uh monetize them, right? And that will weld up a whole bunch of emotion. I think that's what people know the most. And then there's the management issues, but let's start there with people, and then I I frankly worry a little bit because if you don't, if you're not from here and we have so much in migration, how do we educate the people that are coming in? So let's start with that big topic of of of so huge economic impact. But then because they're public, they're protected, they're managed by the federal government, and we'll get into that too with with Mike and what he's doing back there. But but let's let's have a big, let's have a discussion about why this is such a big issue. Why does this matter to Idaho? Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, I guess I can start. And and you kind of nailed it off the top is it's just the scope, yeah, right? I mean, more than 60% of our state is is public. We have um more than 20 million acres of forest service land, uh, more than uh something like 12 million acres of of Bureau Land Management. And the impact collectively of hunting, of other forms of recreation, of just everyone who spends time outside is is in the billions of dollars in in terms of um economic contribution. So it it it is it is a very large scale, but it comes with um its own problems. And in terms of kind of what what happened last summer, as you were alluding to with the um part of part of budget reconciliation, the proposal to uh dispose of um it variously half a million up to maybe even three million acres of public land, that was sort of the latest skirmish and a long-standing uh discussion over this, right? It the historically the United States has pared down its public land estate since basically our our founding when we first acquired. You know, we had almost two billion acres of public land initially and dispose of that through things like the Homestead Act, through veterans grant programs, through um uh transfers to states as conditions of statehood, right? Um it wasn't until 1976 that it became the policy of the United States to hold land in perpetuity perpetuity, the sort of 640 million acres that we have remaining in the federal estate. And since then you have had you have seen this come up every now and again with um entities, whether state level or local level, saying, for whatever reason, having a lot of public land in your state, it can be an incredible asset, but it also comes a lot of challenges, right? I mean, there are individual communities that are constrained from development from that perspective. Certainly you have individual counties where you know 95% of your your county is public, you don't have a very high property tax base, right? So it causes a lot of frustrations, and we'll get to a lot of those. But that's sort of what kicked a lot of the ongoing discussion off of what sort of what is the place of public lands. And in this particular iteration, you know, you saw a a very large collective response from the hunting community, from the outdoor recreation community, from just everyone who utilizes the whole game.
SPEAKER_02I mean, everyone stood in opposition. So so I think in summary, why it's such a big deal is we've had access. Yes, it's the beauty, it's the heritage, it's all this stuff. It's interesting what happens and what political sides of the spectrum come together on this. Yes, yes, I mean you have conservationists at the table with hunting, fishing, uh outdoorsmen, snowmobilers, everything name it, and everyone's at the table saying, Don't do this. And for years they've fought each other on issues.
SPEAKER_00And then we'll look at this. We all came together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and they'll continue to fight each other on issues, right? Yes. Um it's it's not the most relevant, but we used to go to Moab like two to three times here as a family. We'd take the we'd load all of our stuff up on a giant trailer and go down there. It, you know, I used to say the only thing bad about I about living here is it's nine hours from Moab. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, beautiful place. It's a beautiful place. But what I loved about that why I bring it up is is I think that area figured because you had jeepers, you had bikers, you had conservationists, and and they everyone kind of figured out over time the 20 years I went down there of hey, we got to get along. Yes, because you're gonna hate the fact that you're jeeping on this stuff, and we're gonna hate the fact that you're doing this and we're not. But but they figured out a way to get along. And I think it was a great example in my mind how it really is. You have diverse people in these public lands, but but everyone is aligned on one thing. Yeah, they should be kept public, exactly, they should be protected, and everyone take everyone wants it to be preserved. Yeah, they don't want it to be destroyed, they want to take care of it. And I think I and I think that you know, talk to the talk to the alignment that the that that spectrum has on one thing. They love
Shared Use And Real Constraints
SPEAKER_02this land.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it really is something we all agree on. I mean, and when you look at the when you look at the trail base, the water-based recreationalists, um, not so much well, and I mean, even sportsmen, where we all believe in responsible shared use. Um, for instance, this statistic that parks and rec with their law enforcement academies that they put on, uh, they started with OHV and they've done it with snowmobile and boating. It's something like 95% of the public is compliant and they're doing the right thing. Yeah, and we all have bad apples. Like you that's human nature, right? Like every entity has some bad apples, but we all predominantly want to have shared use that's responsible. Um, and everyone has a right. No one has a more inherent right to public lands than anyone else. Like that's you'll hear that from time to time. Someone may live somewhere, for instance, the Hawaii's and say, Well, I live here. This this is what I want. Well, it's public land, like we all have a say. Um, and when you come at it from a responsible use perspective, whether it be hunting, dirt bike, hiking, horses, we can accomplish a lot of things and try to solve some solutions. I mean, there is problems with public lands. I mean, the funding mechanism is a big piece, the management issue is a big piece. I mean, I think the forest certain, I think the Forest Service was something like over a billion dollars in the hole last year just on operations. That's not even accounting for their hundreds of billions of dollars in deferred maintenance. Um, and so you look at it if you ran a business, if you were billions of dollars in the hole year after year, you start looking at ways to break even. Yes. Um, and the traditional funding mechanisms of these entities, whether it be BLM or Forest Service, has been resource driven uh from oil and gas production, timber, mining. Um, And it's it's not a ding against the environmentalist, but every time they sue and they shut these things down, that contributes to the push to sell these lands. It contributes to the deficit. It contributes to the lack of resources that the the Forest Service BLM, Bureau of Reclamation, I mean every land managing agency at the federal level, every time they try to shut these things down instead of a responsible use and what's the balanced use, yeah, it impacts it, and here we are at this. I don't know if it's a turning point, but we we came to this pinnacle of they're trying to sell millions of acres and everyone's like, uh no, you're not. We're not gonna stand by and let you do this.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Before we leave that issue, I I I do want to talk about because it's not just um I want to give them the wildlife part of this. Yep. Because if you talk shared use for trails, hiking, snowbilling, or spec riding, all those sort of things, that's one way that that everyone kind of comes together. Yeah, but then wildlife management. I I'm gonna tell like a like my my uncle Kirk, I married into a family that like they live to hunt and fish. Like good people, like it's it's it's a religion, right? And so my first memory when I start dating my wife is her dad's like, Hey, do you want to go fishing down the Colorado River? I'm like 16 years old. I'm like, yeah, throws me in the back of a truck, five hours in the bed of a truck, sleep in a parking lot. That was my first Colorado River trip.
SPEAKER_03Sounds right.
SPEAKER_02But I got introduced to Uncle Kirk, who was a longtime fishing game uh warden down in um Utah. And so for years, I'd we'd go down the Colorado River two or three times a year fishing. Yes, and I got to lay in a lay in a tent and sit in a boat all day with a guy. He would sing like he would sing like old country songs, like one would get stuck in his head, and then he would get on a soapbox. It was a soapbox about managing wildlife, and no one wants to manage wildlife better than the hunters. Yes, yep. And people that get in the way of like, like he, but
Funding Gaps And Lawsuits
SPEAKER_02so so for years of listening to Uncle Kirk talk about this, talk about how there is harmony between hunting and wildlife. Because I think for people that don't hunt, they don't get that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean we we had a point in the history of our country where um our laws sort of evolved over time. Yeah, right. In in in the early American days, hunting was done on a market basis, right? You could sell game meat, you could, you could um wildlife numbers did materially drop and they and they dropped very, very low. We had a choice at that point. It was it was a fork in the road. We could either go just hands off, you know, we don't touch them and try and let them recover, or we engage in a practice of sustainable use where hunters pay into the system through licenses, through um, through excise taxes on on guns and and um and ammunition, which eventually became the the Pittman Robertson Act, and we we figure out a way to it's it's almost like a you know con conservation capitalism is how I think of it. Like rational self-interest, engaging in this culture that we love.
SPEAKER_00Pay to play.
SPEAKER_03Pay to play. Yeah, but but in a way that that really does perpetuate wildlife conservation, set set limits on on take, right? Like that we have seasons, we have uh we have bag limits, we have we have a certain way of doing it where we know that what we are going to take out of the system is done in a sustainable way. This was, it seems obvious now, but it was an incredible stroke of genius that did not exist anywhere else on the planet. It has fueled the greatest um recovery of wildlife resources in in the modern world and has spawned thousands of conservation organizations. Everything from you know the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Wild Turkey Federation. I mean, these are groups that have helped really perpetuate these these species and want to see them sustained. Um they they do habitat work, you know, they help monitor populations. Everything from abundant species like you know, Mule Deer haven't done it doing as well, but you know, to to species like um you know bighworm sheep, where you you really need a lot of hands on deck to keep them going. These are fueled by hunters and uh the the conservation dollars that come through hunting and fishing pay for the wildlife management that has resulted in the kind of abundance that we've got. And that that makes great wildlife advocates, it makes great public lands advocates because that's where we go, it makes great private land habitat um advocates because private land stewardship is a huge part of wildlife management in the country.
SPEAKER_02I love that, Nick. And and in general, when you get really to know hunting families and legacy hunting, you you talk about they're probably some of our best conservationalists. Yes, they're some of our best quality of land. I mean, everyone is worried about the same thing, which is you've got to have the right environment for everything to thrive. Therefore, I'm going to keep the rules. Yes. I'm going to make sure that everyone around me keeps the rules. And that is by far and away the role. Now, are there some bad actors? Yes. Right. So in addition to the feed your family thing, which is a big part of that, the conservation part of it is just as large. And I think for people moving in here who haven't been around this, it it's what's the best way to get that word out there? Because I'll I'll I'll be with some people and they're like, you hunt? Like, yeah. And they're and they're like, that's gross. That's weird.
SPEAKER_03Yes. No, and and I'll and I'll I mean, one of the reasons why I love the hunting in the sporting world so much is it's one of these things where the more people understand about it, the more they tend to support it, right? We have a disconnection problem. We don't have an issue problem. Yeah. Right. And as the country urbanizes and we and we um move further and further away from the land, that problem tends to increase. Yeah. But as as you see more positive examples, I mean, food is a great way to introduce people to it, but just making sure that we don't lose that connection altogether, right? I mean, there are cities in America right now where people don't know anyone who knows anyone who knows a hunter, right?
SPEAKER_02It's it from their perspective, it looks weird when I love personally
Hunting And The Conservation Model
SPEAKER_02for what I've done because I interact with a lot of people, is when when my first line is, have you ever had elk meat? Yes. Yeah. I mean, are you you're into health, you're health conscious because I think people are more aware in health nowadays. And you're like, have you ever tasted it? Exactly. Have you ever cooked it? Have you ever there's no more free range than an elk stuff? There's nothing better than this. And you and you realize when you take your your son or your grandson out and you be able to respect the land and harvest an elk and prepare it and eat it. And yeah, and when you start there with them, I I've noticed that's a lot better because I I like getting into the more esoteric kind of like, hey, this is good for everything and we appreciate this, and it's part of our heritage. But I think going right back to that, that's where I've started from.
SPEAKER_00And that it shows the buy-in. It shows the buy-in. People love that, like when they feel connected to something, because you talk to, you know, for instance, a vegetarian that, you know, big on growing their vegetables. I can totally relate with that as a hunter because I have the same vested interest in where my food comes from. Right. And people appreciate that. And I mean, I think our society is going that way. We're seeing the the the way that the food industry was going with the chemicals and the preservatives, and now people are starting to see the signs of whole food.
SPEAKER_02The irony, right, is that the left, right? Mm-hmm. Well, left and right, I mean it's just the way it is. They're so health conscious now that it's like, so am I. Exactly. But my freezer is full of the most free-range things you can do, and it feeds my entire family. Yeah, they all all the kids come over, they all grab it, and you know, one elk uh gets you through a whole year, kind of a deal. And start talking about that, and they're like, oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it's yeah, and it and it tastes good. And it tastes good. And they're like, oh, okay, maybe I could see this. And then you take them once and they get out there and they have that spiritual connection of watching the sunrise, watching the world come alive, the birds start chirping and seeing that first light break the ridgeline, all of a sudden they're like, Okay, maybe I understand why you enjoy this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you and you hear an elk bugle or you hear a tricky gobble or something like that. And and it it's also just, I mean, it it's a lot of misconceptions. And so when when people see how hunters uh engage in the pursuit that we engage in, the respect that we have for the animals, the sort of how conscientious we are about the habitat, the um, you know, always when we do harvest an animal, I mean, the the strong desire to make that as as quick and and and efficient as possible. Again, it's an exposure issue. You're gonna have some people on the fringes who are never gonna be supportive of our lifestyle, but it's not most people. Yeah, right. It's it's a getting more connected to your food and to the landscape is something that everybody wants to do. Yeah. Right. And and you know, most people are not going to be hunters, but figuring out where where their food comes from, whether it's you know in a local garden or through a local rancher or an oak up on the mountain, these are things people can relate to. Yeah, it just becomes harder as they as we urbanize more.
SPEAKER_02I love it. We haven't talked a lot about fishing. Right. Um, so let's hit it a little bit. Um we're gonna go all over. I know it's gonna be way too fast. It's a huge topic to try to cover it like in prep for this. I'm like, I know I did I did talk about it. It is so much information to digest. But fishing is a um, I I remember when I ran for governor, man. I like I went and got the education on what happened to the salmon population in Idaho and what it meant to like all of the cities, and and I went deep there, and then you've got the other side of it, which is the dams, and like you you want to step into it. In fact, I'll tell you a quick story. I I remember um you know Todd Cranny, right? So I'm down at a at a wildlife forum debate down at Boise State and packed with people, and I get asked this question by the moderator, and he said it was a very specific question because I've been trained on all this, like you do these murder boards where they put you in front of a camera and they ask you all these questions, and if you get them wrong, and then you watch it back and then don't ever say that. So I I mean Todd had trained me. So the question was if someone could scientifically prove scientifically that by eliminating two of these dams in the Snake River system, that scientifically it would improve the salmon population by X, and if they could prove that it wouldn't impact water, and they could prove scientifically it wouldn't impact power delivery, or and they just kept doing all these things, would you at least consider those studies?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02That was the question. And I said, Yeah, if all that's true, I think you would have to look at the data. And that one line was started a crap storm that lasted months. Months. Yeah. I mean, I walked out and I Todd Cranny was ready to rip my head off. He's like, you stupid. Yeah. So so I'm like, I I got a I got a a dip in the the my dip my toe in the controversy surrounding farming, ag, because that's where there is not a line. Right now you've got water is our most precious resource. Yeah, it's a very controversial topic. It's the difference of everything we do, yeah, and then how that's used, and then and then you've got so this was one part for me where I'm like, oh, there's malalignment here, right? You've got salmon populations of fishing and what it meant to Idaho historically.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02And you've got water and dams and irrigation and energy. And so speak a little bit about fishing. Now we're we're not that that that really is the salmon population. Sure, yeah. People may not realize, but for millions of years.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, literally millions of years, the salmon would come. I mean, that's why it's salmon Idaho, it's which is remarkable, right?
SPEAKER_03That's why it's redfish lake. Right, exactly. Right. When you look at how far inland that is, you know, have an anadimus fish come from the Pacific Ocean and end up you know in the middle of Idaho. It's it's you know, in the Rockies, it's incredible, right? But I mean, fishing in general, I mean, I you know, a lot of us think about hunting, but it's a it's a bigger undertaking, right? Fishing is is more accessible for a lot of people, whether it's just get getting a fly rod and and going out on any old lake or river in in Idaho, about which we have tons of places you can go. Yeah, um, it's not
Fishing Access And Salmon Tensions
SPEAKER_03just fly fishing. I mean, just regular old spin tackle. I mean, take a kid out fishing and just at a local pond here. And that is one way to get people to fall in love with the outdoors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, like the the first fish for any kid is like lifelong memory. People can remember the first time they caught a fish, right? Absolutely. And then and then you talk about the management of fish, the the the healthy, I mean, you take a freshly caught trout or a kokini salmon and what that means. I mean, you so I I do want to hit fishing because it is a it is a big deal, more accessible, easier to get to, um, and and especially where we live. Yeah, my goodness. I mean, you could go, in fact, I remember the first time I went to the Waihes uh fly fishing. I'm like, there are brown trout in there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_02And I remember it took my father in law because he's like, where are we like and and and and and and having that experience, you go to CJ Strike and you look at what an incredible fishery that is. You look at some of the sturgeon things you can do for an experience, you can harvest them, but it's different. And then you start getting to some of our other reservoirs and lakes. It it's incredible what we have right here. Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You can you exactly you can catch a sturgeon in the Snake River, you can go to an alpine lake and catch grayling. Like that the scope of the fisheries in Idaho is incredibly expansive. And like the people that would typically not hunt because they don't want to kill something, a lot of them still fish because catch and release. Um, and so it becomes this connection, um, even in especially with fly fishing, it becomes this artistic spiritual connection with the movements and you know it I love it. Um, but it's a deep connection to the land that people get from it. And Nick, any any thoughts on the man and how that's going?
SPEAKER_02I mean, we've talked a little about honey, but talk about the the fishing resources that are spent here in the state, that the attention they play pay to it, and kind of the general health of that whole thing right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, by and large, they do a phenomenal job. I mean, it it depends on on the fishery, and we have enough variety where I mean you've got places like the Boise River where I mean they these are places where obviously you get a lot of stocking, and so they'll stock fish, and so people have a chance to go out and catch trout there. There's places where with you know it's just purely wild, you know, there's the more iconic places if you want to go fish Silver Creek and it's like this, you know, where Hemingway would go and you get this beautiful backdrop.
SPEAKER_02One of my partners here, Holt Haga, goes up and does the all night, nighttime fishing where they where they fly fish with the mice. Yeah. And I can't even believe the fish. Oh, yeah. They they're look, they're monstrous. Yeah, unbelievable fishery there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And we're gonna spend a lot of our time talking about the treasure valley and kind of western southwestern Idaho. Uh again, when I ran for governor, I had no idea. I mean, you you get over, you get over to Swan Valley and up in eastern Idaho, and there's a real real reason people live over there because it is unbelievable. Yeah, and then you go to North Idaho, yes, Elk City, you look at, you know or Fino.
SPEAKER_00There's so I mean I mean up around Dorshack, it's a whole different Dwarfshack is an unbelievable reservoir.
SPEAKER_02And you look at you look at species and you look at the industry. Look at look at the fishing boats that come out of there, and it it's just part of that whole culture. So it's uh we're we're gonna focus a lot today on on this area, but Idaho is vast and different and and amazingly magically different in species and type of fishing and terrain.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you'll you'll never see all of it, right? And we play there's places in eastern Idaho, like I hate the Henry's Fork for seven. This is a international destination for sure, right? People fly in from all over the place.
SPEAKER_02So I gotta tell you too. So I I I grew up in Utah and I I played basketball at Rick's College as an 18-year-old kid. And I get there, and my luckily the star of the team was Clint Bean, and he was seven foot, and he became my best friend, but he was an avid fisherman and duck hunter, and we were roommates. And so um we we fished or hunted almost every single day we were there, and we were late to almost every class, every class or practice. But I remember going to Henry's Fork for the first time and like honestly think looking at him and saying, This is freaking heaven. Yes, yeah, like we were catching so many fish, huge fish, and as a as a kid, I'm just like, this the why would anyone ever not just come here every day? Yes, and I remember, and then I remember duck hunting over there because we just it was you know, here's this big seven-foot guy doing the army crawl, sneaking up on ducks in front of me, and I'm like, Clint, we're gonna be late for practice. Like, it doesn't matter, I'm the star of the team, right? Like, it won't do anything to me. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I and I love stories like that because it's like living next to this stuff, it's so easy to take it for granted. Oh, yeah, and just feel like it's just this is here and it'll always be here. And you know, you have being kind of blown away by the fact that we just get to go do this, yes, yeah, right. I can just wake up and go hike up on that beautiful ridge and look out over all of God's country and hear this elk bugle and go get an elk with my bow and not gonna see another soul. And something's less the case these days, but um it you should be blown away by it. Yeah, like in and and obviously the the the economic impact and everything else goes goes along in that discussion, but sort of the the awe of it is is a part that people shouldn't lose because it it really is incredible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's if you get no matter who you are, you get out there, the awe of it is just comes natural. Like I I've it's been fun for me to take different folks out and and just kind of watch their reactions, yeah. Like you brought up sunrise, sunrise, sunset, elk people, the smell of an elk. The first time someone smells an elk, it's like, what is that? I'm like, you you feel that right? You only asked that question. You only asked that question one time, right? Um but but what what wonderful
Rural Counties And PILT Pressure
SPEAKER_02stuff. I do want to get because I know it's gonna go quick, let's get into some of the challenges. So you've hit a couple of them, and I want to go a little bit deeper. So so because we have so much federal land, um, you have these smaller communities that that don't have a tax base, so there's a payment in lieu of taxation pill, right? Yes. And and and so you talk to some of those folks in some of those counties. Custer County is the one that comes to mind for me, but but but but there is a lot of federal oversight. And then the next layer I want you guys to educate us on is now you're managing those things, right? So you're managing fires, right? You're managing some of the quirky access things that kind of go on on some of these areas that can get a little a little strange. So, so right now, and you mentioned this, and I want to get to this too. We have Mike Boren, um, who's one of my dear friends, one of my best friends back there, who's doing an incredible job. We've right, Idaho right now has a chance to kind of maybe improve some of these things, but that was a lot to throw out there. You guys can kind of go into what you want to go into.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a it's a complex thing. Um, some members of our delegation believe that Pilt, that they're the eastern states want to back away from it. And you, you know, Custer County, Idaho County, the Hawaii's, yeah, people go there, recreate. They're not, they're impacting the county services um in a way that is definitely, for instance, law enforcement is putting a draw on the law enforcement um in their budget and their reduced budgets that continually are affected. And so as they look at this, I've I've heard uh up north people coming in from Washington State and floating rivers and the the county garbage cans are overflowing, and they're not paying to dispose of that. And so the impact of outdoor recreation on our lands is a huge issue. Um it's a huge issue to the rural communities. Um believe Heather Eastman from Idaho Business from the Outdoor, she's toured a bunch of the counties talking about PILT, SRS, recreation, and she said that literally almost every county has brought up outdoor recreation and the impacts.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna have Matthew. Can you see if you can Google what uh the percentage of Custer County is um federally owned? It it's it's a shocking number. I don't think most people listening will understand when we say Exactly. I can't remember the exact number, so I don't want to quote until you looks it up, but it is it is crazy high.
SPEAKER_03And and sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, go keep going. The the percentage is one thing, the size is another. Yes, yes. When you look at the acreage. When you look at how much they have to manage with a property tax base that small, yeah. So like one one thing that came out of this, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00150, no, how many acres?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna I was gonna say that. 158,000 acres are privately owned.
SPEAKER_00Out of 3.1 million. So 150 million.
SPEAKER_02Let's just make sure we hit that. 158,000 acres out of 3.1 million total acres of federally managed. So when the point the point is you got that tax base to cover all those services. Yep. And it's then you're talking roads, EMS, law enforcement, schools. I mean everything.
SPEAKER_03That comes in there, but I mean you've got more and more people coming in from out of state. Like you know, the the search and rescue teams are gonna have to so when when we were talking earlier about sort of this big discussion we had last summer um over potential disposal of public lands and the big bipartisan push that said like we want to keep them. Part of it come out of that was like some of these frustrations are not coming from nowhere. And we would we have to get figure out how to address them. Yeah, right. The the county level finances and how you maintain basic services and and are able to support an economy, we under those kinds of conditions, we can't go the next 10, 20 years just kicking that down the road. Like that we this is gonna have to be something that we get together and figure out how to solve.
SPEAKER_00And this this problem is it's kind of just been building for 30 plus years. I mean, when you go back to the 90s with the series of Clean Water Act, Green Water Acts.
Timber Decline And Wildfire Economics
SPEAKER_00Um, I want to do something. I want to talk about that a little bit. Yeah, sure. I think Larry Craig had brought, I can't quote it specifically, but I think Idaho lost six timber mills and twenty-two thousand jobs. And what did those do for those rural communities? You know, when you look at this is like we're opening like you talk about indoors.
SPEAKER_02Here it goes, because you you had you had layered on to already kind of just math, right? And then you had log. Which you can go back to that can be done the right way and it can be done the wrong way. So you have clear cutting and you have forest management. And then you had like these sawmills that were produced tax revenue in these little communities and all of them shut down. And then you had this idea of let it burn. Yeah. Right. I mean, we have never talked about any of this stuff. So you guys start stopping me. I mean, it it literally got so ridiculous. Like, hey, we're just gonna let and I listen, you look at what happened in a very short time with just a change in hey, how we're gonna manage fires last year.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're it's become a multi-billion dollar business. Fire has. Um, and it's yeah, it, I mean, and fire impacts all of us.
SPEAKER_02I mean, look at the air, the air quality is uh I'm telling these stories for the first time. So I hope I don't get in trouble for doing this. But I remember as a young entrepreneur, because I've always been entrepreneurial as an ER doc. And and I I remember someone coming to the ER from a fire, and it was one of these owners of a owner of a company that supported wildlife fires. Right. Okay. So when I'm when you're with a patient in the ER, you're in there for like six hours sometimes. And so I'm just there with the old guy. He's like, I'm fascinated by your business. Right. So you go around the country and you set up base camp at the end of these fires and tell me about it. Tell me how this works. And this dude, like, he's like, dude, it's the most lucrative thing you've ever done in your life. I'm like, why would that be lucrative? Yeah. And he pulls up a schedule on his on his it's probably phone or what I don't know what it was on back then because it was a while ago. Blackberry. But he pull he pulls this thing up and he's like, Oh yeah, this is the federal schedule for what they'll pay. In fact, if I had a medical director, once we have like a doctor that is available and an ambulance sitting there and all this stuff, we can make tens of thousands of dollars a day on a fire. And I'm like to sit there, even if you're not treating anyone like you just sit there. Are you kidding me? I'm like, it was just alarming to me. Like, well, that doesn't make sense. Yep.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so when you when you think about just how the the the the degradation of forest health and the I mean, in some of it's just conditions, right? I mean, it's no secret we didn't exactly have a great snow year this year, right? Like get prepared to breathe some smoke coming up. But the question kind of just whole holistically is sort of always how we got here, right? The the when you when you look at um you know the the timber industry not being what it was historically, there's different components to that. Some of that's regulatory, some of it's mill technology, some of it's pricing. How can we disaggregate that and do whatever we can to help make sure that we can promote forest health, both for so we avoid these catastrophic wildfires, we we we look at the bill, we see how expensive it is, hundreds of millions of dollars on an annual basis, and it can be higher than that in the really bad years. Yeah. Um we don't want that to continue. No right? Uh but we we there there's a lot to untangle in terms of how we make sure that that happens. It's not there's no easy button, but it needs to happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and when you look at like the for the outdoor rec industry, and that's hunting, fishing, boating, I mean
Forest Health And Active Management
SPEAKER_00the whole gamut. Um when you look at what that industry has become and what is being generated on public lands in America, uh, the outdoor recreation roundtable just did a whole survey with the Bureau of Economics. People are spending, I think it's $14.6 million an hour on public lands. And yet, when you talk to higher-level people, and you know, I don't want to say the old guard, but the old mentality, resources are what came out of the ground. Timber, mining, gas, and oil. But it was a $1.2 trillion industry last year was outdoor recreation. Um, you know, we look at it and go, hunting and fishing's proved this for 90 years now. Right. When was the 30s when the Pittman Robertson?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't remember exactly the exact year. I think so.
SPEAKER_00You know, we're coming close to a century where hunters and fishermen have managed their activities. They've paid to play and they do an incredible job. And when we look at this growing outdoor rec industry where we're talking the land and we're talking the people. The land is not being managed correctly, yet the people still want to go out and enjoy our public lands. Why aren't we looking at changing the formula? I'm not saying we reduce timber mining, any of that, but we as recreationalists don't have the ability to pay into that land management currently.
SPEAKER_02So what what's the ideal, Nick? What what what what is what is ideal forest management look like in Idaho if you were a king for a day?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, this is one of the burning questions of our time, right? Yeah, exactly. It will be come July. The the if if you if you talk to most hunters, they're they're gonna are sportsmen and you know this is this is anglers, this is trappers, everybody. We want public lands to stay public, but we want them better managed. What better means differs by who you talk to. Yeah, right. So you've got, I mean, most sportsmen tend to be more, I'd say, conservative-minded, right? We want active management, we want to see improved forest health, we don't want to have to clamber over deadfall every time we're packing an elk out, right? We don't want to see these catastrophic wildfires. But we but we still want to understand that there's that there is real value in backcountry habitat, right? We don't we don't want chronic rack habitat degradation. How we balance that is going to be an enormous question, right? We want a thriving term industry, we want to make sure that that rural communities are healthy.
SPEAKER_02Um is it easy to just and I might be making this too easy, but when I really studied it and dug into it, it it sounds like the proper allowance of thinning or whatever you want to call it, forest management then leads to productive use of that stuff and less fuel, yeah, leads to less fire. I mean, it it almost sounds too easy, but it it there's something that can be made off of those if if it's done right. Yeah and and I think you had not public lands, but private lands for timber industry forever where they would kind of show that if you did this right, you could both could coexist. Is that is that too simple?
SPEAKER_03I mean, there's there's going to be, and this is gonna get a bit a little bit out of my depth because there's terrain considerations, there's quality of timber, there's I mean, and some of it is a longer-term project. Like you need to increase the forest health to get the quality of the timber that would make economic sense to go in there and do it. But long term, yeah. That's what we want. We want we want healthy forests uh that that produce that kind of, you know, deer and elk are early successional creatures. The old growth forest isn't how they thrive. Yeah, they need they need that new stuff to eat off of. Some of that is and and some combination of mechanical thinning and and fires um promotes healthy force. They've been going like that for a while. So we've certainly got ourselves into a little bit of a regular of a regulatory bind with everything that we've layered in. Not, I mean, a lot of them not bad intentioned, right? We just we've seen the consequences of those play out over the last 50 years or so. Yeah. And helping to rethink how we make that work to take some of the uh the strength out of some of the frustrations that are happening on public land while making them healthy. I to me that is how we keep public lands public in the long term. Is is is focus on on the health of the landscape.
SPEAKER_02I think what you just said couldn't be, I mean, that's like probably what needs to be shattered from the rooftops, right? What you just said. Like it is a balance, it's work, but it's it's mixing the right regulation with the right management. Probably never gonna be perfect because of terrain and conditions and everything else, but but everyone kind of working together. But people should be more aligned, right?
SPEAKER_03I think, I mean, and and this is one of the great things. I mean, like, you know, uh Dan's organization works with recreationists across the board. I mean, we're talking motorized, non-motorized, everything. And getting us all together to say, because you know, we've got a public lands have a multiple use mandate, right? That that that intrinsically is both beautiful and because it's gonna be cause headaches, right? Like it's it's um when you get everyone's perspective on what things should look like, you're gonna have to compromise. But we recognize, I think, that that compromise is going to be necessary. And the the the majority that wants to see a positive future getting us together and figuring out this this is gonna be the path forward, and we know in broad strokes what it needs to look like. That's gonna have to be that's gonna have to be the long-term solution.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but we haven't hit on a couple things. Dan, I want to give you a chance to talk about it. Uh really good friend of mine, um, Bill Whittaker, back backcountry discovery trails uh for motorcycles through through Idaho. He's passionate about that, and anyone can go look up kind of his organization, what he does. You're very involved in the Snowmobileers Association. Uh talk a little bit about access and kind of motorized access to to some of Idaho. Sure. And talk about the horseback too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's we're not going to get to I mean, it's there's so many aspects of recreation. Yeah, it's but you're very involved in some of those things. I am, yeah. I'm very involved
Recreation Economy Needs A New Formula
SPEAKER_00with a lot of different organizations from the horse industry, snowmobile, uh, the state ISSA, um, yeah, ATV clubs, dirt bike clubs. I'm a multifaceted outdoor recreationalist. I've heard the whole gamut. I mean, I have a jet boat, I hunt fish, you name it. Um what's that? Do you work? I mean, I get it, I get a work and fight for the question. The rest of us are looking around saying, shit, I want to be Dan. I haven't got to use some of it in quite a while. But I'm trying. Um yeah, it's it's a unique thing. I mean, when you look at the the top recreating entities within the state of Idaho, Rvine's number one. I mean, people pay a lot of money for camp trailers. Um, and then hunting and fishing and trapping or hunting, trapping, and shooting is number two, fishing and boating's three. You know, and you can look at RV. Yep. Hunting, shooting, trappings, number two.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Boating and fishing is three. Again, boats are expensive. People pay a lot of money to fish. After that, you have snow activities, so snowmobiles and over snow. So you could lump in the ski resorts with that. And then number five this year is equestrians, um, or I should say this past year. Um, and that's a fluctuating topic. Usually the equestrian community and the OHV, the dirt bike, ATV, UTV community, they kind of bounce around for number five. But huge industry, I mean, here in Idaho, it's over four and a half billion dollars total is spent in Idaho on outdoor recreation. I mean, it's top in compensation growth last year, top in the nation and job growth. Um, companies are coming to Idaho to start businesses in the outdoor rec community. There's we're not able to contain the growth right now within Idaho, to be quite honest. I mean, we talked about the impacts on rural communities, but we're not capitalizing on a quickly growing community to manage it and to honestly get the best bang for the state's buck with it.
SPEAKER_02Um how does the state do uh when it comes to this industry and what you just kind of talked through? And what within what do they do well and what what what could they do better?
SPEAKER_00So, I mean, you look at it, I I think fish and game works incredibly well with the different entities, you know, with Nick and Ben and other groups, whether it be uh Rocky Mountain Elk or Trout Unlimited, they they have a great partnership. And within Parks and Rec, there's a great partnership with the motorized community because I think in 1974, Dirtbiker said we want to pay into a program, create a sticker, um, and we want to have a program of record for the state of Idaho for our industry, and that's where the registration can we buy, isn't it nice that you can just go buy a bunch of stickers now?
SPEAKER_02There's always a discussion too do we need stickers or not? I don't know if you need them or not, but for a guy that's got way too many stickers I buy every year, it it's been like I just walk in and say, give me 20 of those things, right?
SPEAKER_00And then that's a topic. But the motorized, the motorized uh branch of the rec bureau uh within Idaho Parks and Recreation, it's funded through OHV stickers, snowmobile stickers, park and ski stickers, non-invasive species stickers, boating registration. And so all those have a program. The non-motorized, for instance, horsemen, um hikers, and mountain bikers, there's no program. There's no anything. And so three-quarters of the state's trails are non-motorized. And then the motorized program, with what they've created and built, they're generating roughly about almost $2 million a year through sticker sales. And they're doing things that are truly here in Idaho, are the envy of other states. With they have trail crews that are out there just they're overachievers in the sense that they go out there with very little and get a lot done. The non-motorized is a big lacking part of Idaho's outdoor rec focus because there's no program. There's one individual. Aren't those the guys that complain the most too? Some are. Yeah, some do. I mean, we all have our complainers.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it's just it depends on on the interest group, but a lot there is a lot of overlap, right? There is most outdoors folk, and it's not they're not going to say I'm a non-motorized user, I'm a motorized user. Yeah. A lot of guys use ATVs to go hunt or get out there on dirt bikes. And yeah, there's there's there's some demographics that tend to be a little louder than others, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it's, you know, Parks and Rec does a great job on the recreation side.
Trails Access Motorized And Nonmotorized
SPEAKER_00I think we're the state's lacking that we don't have any kind of non-motorized program. Really unique. Idaho got the first good neighbor authority project in the nation for outdoor recreation. And it's a non-motorized project, and they did it with no money. And so it's kind of a unique thing. So we were the first in the nation to get an actual project done for GNA for a rec. I think Montana, they had an agreement, but it was like a wide scope, um, kind of a brush stroke for a forest that they're gonna, yeah, the state wants to be more involved in recreation, but it wasn't a project. Um, and so Haley Husband went out, chased this down with Idaho Trails Association, and they generated the revenue to do the match, and they got a good neighbor project approved on the Idaho Centennial Trail. And that is the Idaho Trail. And it's, you know, I I loosely say designated by the legislature. I don't know if it actually was designated or just talked about and they made it happen. Um, but that's one of those trails that is quickly disappearing. Backpacker magazine did an article two or three years ago that the greatest through hike in the lower 48 is disappearing. That's the Idaho Centennial Trail. And, you know, what could a trail like that generate if it draw drew people in like the Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Appalachian Trail? Um, would people come here to hike that? Would they then stay in the rural communities? I don't know. I think the state needs to invest in a mechanism, pay-to-play, where the non-motorized users, horsemen, mountain bikers, and hikers have a neck mechanism to pay into. It's just what is the right program? I mean, we pushed legislation two years ago. It didn't make it. When there's a new idea floating around, but our rec programs are really good in this state. They do a lot.
SPEAKER_02How do we get along with our neighbors? Other states? Other states that surround us as it relates to these issues.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I th I think broadly there's a lot of um, there's a lot of overlap. I mean, I think on the on the wildlife side, for example, you know, uh elk don't know which state they're in. So they'll they'll they'll migrate back and forth. And and so there's pretty good connectivity there. Um, I think with a lot of the federal agencies. I mean, we haven't talked about it, but the Forest Service just now announced this huge restructuring that they're doing. So they'll be state offices now. Um historically they were more like regionally focused. And so um we'll we'll see how how things like that shape.
SPEAKER_02That's part of what Mike's doing, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a big deal, right? Oh, yeah, real big deal.
SPEAKER_00For the like trail-based users, I think we lose a lot of people leaving this state to go recreate elsewhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you brought up Moab, prime example, right? Premier destination for Jeeps, ATV, UTV. I mean, here in Idaho, the fastest growing motorized activity is UTVs over 50 inches. And the majority of our trails don't allow it. So they're stuck to logging roads. We've been working with Parks and Rec heavily on could we create a state complex that's pay-to-play? You do a day use by a month pass, year pass, whatever that may be. And do we have a place that these Jeepers, instead of going nine hours? Is there potential in the Hawaii's for this? It's being discussed at a couple locations. Um, Brian, I'm gonna butcher his last name, DeLange from Parks and Rec. He's working with a county right now over in eastern Idaho that they were like, we actually like jeeps. We we know what Moab draws. Like, we'll we'll partner with Parks and Rec to create this, and let's do it on county ground. And so there is a proposal going forward. We're working with Dustin Miller on IDL that we could potentially utilize a piece of ground up north that uh has potential to offer that, where you similar to back east with the off-road parks, you show up, you pay a day use fee, and you go rock crawling over, you know, trails built with dumping rocks out there and create a mile course that, you know, as a Jeep, they don't go real fast when they're doing that. So a mile or two miles can give them a half a day activity to go have fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and I think that that's sort of kind of to your to your question about how we how well we play with other states. I mean, to some degree, a lot of the West are experiencing the same challenges of how you grapple with the kind of growth that we're seeing, right? And and and how you maintain the kind of character that we that we have while um while embracing the opportunities of an increased recreational economy. Uh and that's I think something that we could always do better. But I mean, trying to know from our perspective, I mean we're always looking at okay, what what challenges are other states uh in engaging in and how are they addressing them and how do we do them differently here?
SPEAKER_00And people come here. Like there's the secrets out. Idaho, you know, from the hunting perspective, that is obviously a controversial topic. I mean, now non-residents have to draw a tag. Um, but it's not just that. People are coming to Idaho to go hiking, camping, snowmobiling. Look at West Yellowstone. I mean, look at eastern Idaho. That is a world-class snowmobiling destination. Um I think it's time we strategize and kind of get a higher level. Um, and it sounds like the governor's starting to, you know, look at this uh with his new policy director, Kristen Sleeper. Um, she's really interested in how does the state better capitalize on this? How do we how do we bring commerce in, tourism in, have a bigger discussion to where the state can maybe have more involvement through shared stewardship, GNA with with the federal entities? How do we have more vested interest in buy-in from the state's perspective? Um, because the state's really good at it. We just gotta get there from a holistic approach.
SPEAKER_02Hey, way
Closing Pitch And Listener Support
SPEAKER_02too fast. I knew I I actually I like looking at the prep and I'm like, it ain't gonna happen. It's a big topic. Yeah, a last word from each of you on what what would you listeners today trying to condense this down to an elevator pitch you'd give for what's what what you what you are passionate about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean I from from my side I'd say like it always starts with just getting outside and seeing the abundance that we are so blessed with, uh like living right on the doorstep of of here in Idaho. Um it's it's incredible, it's magical. We cannot take it for granted, and and we can't just sort of let things go along with the status quo, right? I mean, I think that the the the real call to action is we we love this stuff, we want to see it available for our kids and our grandkids and future generations, but we have to do our part to make sure that we're stewarding that resource properly so that people aren't feeling like they're um overly deprived of of just basic necessities because of of its existence and that it's managed in a healthy way. And so that is gonna take collaboration, it's going to take compromise, um, and it's gonna take making sure that you stay on the landscape so that you can you can like Dan said at the beginning, this is in our DNA, it needs to stay that way. Love that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, to me it's it's all about getting people the right people at the table. I think for far too long, recreationalists have fought each other, non-motorized, motorized, anti-hunting, all these different things. We're at this point where we all are agreeing on something. Let's have the hard conversations and let's think outside the box and really look at things to say, how do we manage this? How does it best keep all of our interests of what we love doing without keeping our quote unquote horse blinders on, looking 10 feet in front of us? Like we have to we have to come to the table with some unique ideas to make this work. Um, the traditional approach for the last 60, 70 years of the funding for the Forest Service BOM, I don't think that continues going forward. Um I don't. I think we have to get a unique change of mindset as we do this, and it's gonna take all of us. It takes the users, it takes the state legislature, it takes the federal entities, the the delegation, and I think we have to look at we have to keep our public lands public and we have to manage it in a way that makes sense where at least we're breaking even. Like we we gotta break even, otherwise the threat of sales will always be there. It's always looming.
SPEAKER_02Amen. All that hey, this has been great. Thank you both very much for what we do and and Dan, it's great. We're doing Nick and they are doing another one here. But um thanks for what you do. And absolutely. And next time you see Sandra, give her a big yeah.
SPEAKER_00I talked to her just the other day. She said to say hi.
SPEAKER_02Give her a big hug from me and um keep keep doing great work. Yeah, thanks for it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Thanks.