Ever Onward Podcast

Building for Humans in an Automated World with John Drake & Mae Myers | Ever Onward - Ep. 128

• Ahlquist. • Season 1 • Episode 128

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As technology continues to reshape nearly every industry, one question becomes increasingly important: What remains uniquely human?

In this episode of Ever Onward, Tommy Ahlquist is joined by John Drake, President of Drake Cooper, and Mae Myers of Pivot North Architecture for a wide-ranging conversation on creativity, architecture, design, branding, leadership, and the future of work in an increasingly automated world.

Mae shares her journey into the design profession, from growing up in a creative household to spending more than two decades helping shape spaces that influence how people live, work, heal, and connect. The discussion explores the often-overlooked science behind great design—from natural light and color psychology to acoustics, materials, accessibility, and biophilic elements that can impact mood, productivity, and well-being.

The group also dives into the role physical spaces play in company culture, employee experience, recruiting, retention, and brand identity. Whether it's a healthcare facility, office environment, hospitality space, or community gathering place, thoughtful design has the power to shape behavior and create meaningful human experiences.

A major theme throughout the episode is the rapid rise of artificial intelligence and how creative professionals are learning to embrace it without losing the human element that makes great work possible. Mae and John discuss how AI is transforming workflows, accelerating ideation, improving visualization, and helping creative teams move faster than ever before. At the same time, they explore the risks of over-reliance on technology and the importance of maintaining craft, curiosity, expertise, and creative judgment.

The conversation also touches on architecture, branding, workplace environments, creative leadership, mentorship, design education, and the evolving skills that will define the next generation of professionals. As tools become more powerful and automation becomes more common, creativity, vision, and the ability to connect with people may become even more valuable.

Throughout the episode, John shares lessons from decades in the advertising and branding industry, including the importance of clarity, storytelling, and creating a shared vision that aligns teams and organizations. Together, the group reflects on how some of the most successful businesses, brands, buildings, and experiences are born at the intersection of creativity and strategy.

Whether you're a business owner, architect, designer, marketer, developer, entrepreneur, leader, or someone simply interested in the future of creativity, this conversation offers practical insights and thought-provoking perspectives on how to continue building for humans in an automated world.

Topics include:

• Creativity in business and leadership
• Architecture and interior design
• Workplace culture and employee experience
• The science of light, color, and space
• Branding and organizational identity
• AI and the future of creative professions
• Human-centered design
• Innovation and technology
• Creative problem solving
• Vision, culture, and leadership

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Why Creativity Matters Now

SPEAKER_01

I'm really excited to have John Drake. He is the president of Drake Cooper, 30-year history of being in the ad industry. Just a really smart guy. I'm excited to have him on to talk about creativity and business branding. We're going to bring out a couple of guests that are in business but art related. Our first guest will be Chris Kamari, who's the chef and owner of Kin and Arthaas Bar. He's a great guy, and we'll talk about culinary art and creativity within that. And then we'll have Mae Myers, who is with Pivot North Architecture, to talk about architecture and creativity within that. Creativity as we uh go down the road of AI, as we start seeing our word world even more automated, I think the individual uh creativity of those workers and the people that really figure out how to use AI but but keep the human element in are going to thrive. Um according to a study conducted by Forbes of 11.3 million employees, more than 70% of companies surveyed consider creative thinking and analytical thinking to be the skill most expected to rise in importance from 23 to 27. This is going to be the thing that sets people apart is creativity. It's going to be great to have uh John on with us and to talk about creativity in the workplace and ways to stimulate uh that creativity and make uh for better workplaces and environments. Um thank you so much for listening uh to our podcast. If you uh have a chance, please like, share, or give us a review. Um our topic again is creativity with John Drake.

Meet May And Her Design Path

SPEAKER_01

May Myers, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01

Back with John talking all things creativity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Been fun, huh? It has. Um, well, we already did kind of like formal bios, but Tara, tell us about yourself before we get into this. Your first podcast?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, first podcast ever. Um, yeah, just trying something new. Um I don't know. I have I grew up in the Midwest, uh, moved to Boise like five years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Minnesota, right?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, and like uh the Kansas City area, actually, is where I moved from. Um I was just one of those people that like knew kind of what I wanted to do, like right out of high school, went to school, and I've been doing interior design for like 23 years. So it's awesome. Yeah, here I am.

SPEAKER_01

What drew you to it?

SPEAKER_00

Um it's it's probably like a multitude of things.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't it great when someone knows exactly what they want to do and they go straight into it? It's kind of rare, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what was the thing?

SPEAKER_00

I think I definitely knew from the beginning that I wanted to be in the the creative world, but kind of narrowing down interior design was a little bit of a process that happened in school. But I think I was, you know, I was one of those kids that kind of grew up in that sort of creative world. My mom was a musician and sewer, and so I was kind of surrounded by music and creativity from a young age. But, you know, I was the one who was like out in the garage, like trying to find pieces of wood scraps to like nail together and make something. And you know, I was always trying to create something um out of nothing.

SPEAKER_01

Was she a singer or what what instrument did she play?

SPEAKER_00

Uh she was she played piano. Did she? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What'd your father do?

SPEAKER_00

Uh my father's a pilot. That's cool. So I got the the right brain, left brain parents.

SPEAKER_01

The yin and the yang. We talked about that on our last podcast, right? Both sides are important. Um and and and one of the things we want to kind of like the importance of creativity and business and kind of how important it is to have kind of art and business and where they intersect is a lot of the most successful people kind of have both. Um what when you were when you were deciding um how to apply the creativity, um, why why interior design and architecture? What what drew you to that versus something else?

SPEAKER_00

That's a good question. Um I think I was, yeah, I was kind of focused around like um art and sort of those things that are kind of um, do you go to school and major in art, you know? So I wanted, I knew I wanted to to make and create the world. I I loved, I think from a young age, I was always very aware of like how I felt in a space and how lighting impacted me, or you know, just picking up on those little things in your environment and then realizing like, oh, I can actually be a part of that and help help shape those environments. So um when I went to school as a five-year program, and you kind of get a taste for um landscape architecture, regular architecture, and then interior architecture, which was what I decided to do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's so important. Well, we're gonna, I'm sure we'll get into what we do, but it's like critical how people feel. And and and now how you recruit and retain employees, your workspace is like almost everything now in the world we live in. We've we've been able to extract people out of third generation space, second generation space, and just because it's just tough to keep people if they're not if they're not experiencing light in an environment that feels like home, right? That's really cool. I'm sure we'll get into that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um how long you've been in Boise?

SPEAKER_00

Five years. And uh yeah, it's uh I like it. I moved here to be able to be um closer to nature and living in Kansas City. I always say that you can like drive an eight-hour radius around Kansas City, and it looks exactly the same no matter what direction you go. So um, yeah, and I have some sisters here too. So that's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's how it happens here, John. Someone comes one one one family member comes here and then it it just attracts, and it's a common, common story here.

SPEAKER_04

It's an amazing place to be, and there's so much, I mean, it it my journey's similar, like just as creative people, you notice things like you're like noticing that like the the interior space matters. It's the same way with with me, like just like noticing like I actually kind of like advertising, you know, I I'm interested in it, um, and just noticing that it's and then following it. And there's always a a path to get there. And uh that's that's so much

Creativity Inside Business Spaces

SPEAKER_04

of it.

SPEAKER_01

Um along the way, one of the things we want to talk about today is in business. This is kind of a business podcast, how important uh creativity is in in business, and in your in what you see and who you interact with, talk a little bit about that process for people and companies and and where it fits in priorities right now for folks.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so in my field, it's kind of um there's a broad range of creativity, right? Um my my main focus in training is in the in the commercial world. And so um, you know, creativity can look a little bit different in the commercial world of interior design as opposed to the residential part of interior design. Um so a lot of times in the in the commercial world, you have maybe like a little bit more um opportunity to kind of take in all of these um, you know, owner requests, what actually needs to happen in the space, what I feel like needs to happen in the space, and be able to it there seems like there's like a maybe a little bit more freedom because they're looking to you to give them, you know, the creativity, the big ideas and shape their space. You know, as in residential, it kind of seems like um, you know, that's somebody's home. It's very personal. And so, you know, that's that's what matters at the end of the day is how you feel in your space. And so if you're working with a homeowner, it's it's a different creative process, right? Like they're gonna have a little bit more say in how they they want the space and how they feel, and and so yeah, it's kind of vast.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and the art is trying to figure out how to how to understand the individual, whether it's the company or the family, and what what do we want this place to express about what makes us feel good, and then how do we deliver something that matches that, right? Because that's the part that lay people and non-artistic people don't understand is okay, I know what I want, but tell me how to get there's a little bit on the branding thing, right?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

I another question I want to ask you, it's interesting. Uh, we've talked a little bit about branding on the last podcast, John, but um I feel bad for companies that don't have the ability to create a space that reflects their culture because it's just part of it, right? I think if you can get the brand right and it kind of speaks to and you got the mission, vision, values, all that stuff, and you kind of come up with a brand. And if you can then wrap space around that brand that that is cohesive, that harmonizes with what you're trying to say and how you're trying to create a culture for your employees and your people, it just makes it a lot easier than when you can't.

SPEAKER_04

When you when you walk into a space, I mean I'm curious to get your take on this because it's like we mentioned before, it's like making it pretty as easy, making it correct is hard. So, like we're all individuals as we're out there in the world, but then you come to work or you you all are kind of reflecting on the same thing and you're trying to create a feeling when you come to work so that you're all in the zone and with the values of the company that you work for. I mean, I'm curious, like for you, it's I mean, that's like when I look at brands, it's like one of the things is like the the commercial space, and like you walk in, it's like, what am I feeling here? Like, and understanding the client to get to that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and there's there's so many puzzle pieces with interior design. I think sometimes people, when they think of interior design, they're just thinking of like fabric and carpet and paint, but it's way more than that. Um and I could go on and on about that, but there's so many puzzle pieces to interior design. Um, because it's not just like the aesthetics and how you're incorporating brand and how you're feeling. It's also like um, is the space um, you know, code compliant? Is it accessible? Um, are the acoustics right? Is the lighting right? It's just there's so many pieces um to that. And the creativity and the aesthetics is just like Forget until you start bringing up the budget word, right? In that. Yeah. Didn't want to say that one.

SPEAKER_04

Constraints. Yeah, creative constraints.

SPEAKER_01

Creative constraints, right? Yeah, but it's so so critical, right, to everything you're trying to do. But that's what makes it enjoyable, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, what are some of the favorite your favorite spaces you've done here in town?

A Project That Proves Design Works

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, that's that's uh an easy one to answer. Um I think probably, I don't know if you're familiar with the um the Idaho outdoor field house.

SPEAKER_01

Um Yeah, because that's one of my businesses. Yeah. Yeah, of the hyperbarracks. Yeah, yeah. So some at hyperbarracks, and you guys did that one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I love that. I mean, I get to work down there every month. I volunteer, but it's a great example. And there's lots of little details in there. I mean, I very, very much love that place. Um, but talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that project was my favorite just because, well, we were responsible for, or I was responsible for the housing units and then the the wellness, the hyperbarracks and wellness. Um, but it was just, I think as a designer, it's the most fulfilling when you can see a project develop from day one. So conception, you know, the owner comes to you and says, This is what I want, and you are part of that process um until the construction is completed. And then I also um had the opportunity to be part of the furniture package and kind of finishing that out. And so it was just it's it's the ultimate dream, right? When you can be in a project from day one and two and a half years later see the final completion and have every all the parts and pieces come together and and see it um be a successful.

SPEAKER_04

Have you been down there yet? I have, and actually we it we learned uh we worked on that at the beginning for the branding. For the branding. Yeah, the logo and all that. Like, so it was cool to hear that you were that.

SPEAKER_01

I just worked a shift there last week, and I and I think to kind of hammer home what you've said, like we wanted to create a place that, you know, these are these are veterans that are coming into something that is new to them. I mean, you're gonna stick them in a hyperbarics chamber twice a day for 40 days, and um, they're vulnerable. I mean, you're coming in to talk about your deepest, darkest times that you've had and how that's affecting your life currently. And you come in with hope that, hey, I'm gonna go get this treatment and the nerve endings in my brain are gonna heal and I'm gonna recover. And and so creating a place that feels good is so important. And I just think you guys hit it out of the park. I mean, you walk in there, it feels fantastic. The locker, I mean, everything from the locker rooms to where you stage, to where you sit, to where you go after, to where you go have your evaluations, it just feels so good. And I've I probably toured I don't know how many hundreds of people through there now and um and and watched our patients. Um, I think we we we passed uh 10,000 dives um a couple months ago, but but it it's just a great place to be and to to work and and then the employees that are there every day. It it's a it's a great example of just really what was the need patient-wise and and the working environment and how does it look and it's been amazing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and that's that's the that's such a great thing to hear, right? Because that's what um you know I'm striving for as a designer is to be able to create spaces where people are feeling like they can heal, like in healthcare, we do a lot of of healthcare work, and to be able to provide those spaces to actually facilitate healing and and make people's lives better, not only the people who are visiting, but the people who work work there too. So staff and visitors.

Light Color And Biophilic Science

SPEAKER_01

Speak to some of the science behind this, because I don't know that people listening, the people that run businesses, there's a ton of science between between light, light makes sense, but um colors. Um I I remember uh my dad's been doing this for a long time, and he said, you know, this was 25 years ago, he did a big building for fidelity, and they had people come in and just like the the color schemes that you pull together for what you want people to feel and how their work days go and things you avoid and things you do, and there's just so much behind it's not just it's not just picking stuff out, it's it's and then the functionality part of it. So it it one is light, color, everything else, but then then how does how does the furniture and everything else make you feel about where you are? There's just so much that goes into this that I don't think people see sometimes on the surface.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And I've definitely you know had to kind of explain this to some of the clients about it, does start with science, right? Like there are so many studies about um when patients, for instance, are exposed to natural light, if they have a view to the exterior, it actually it's it's proven that it speeds up healing. And you know, there's just there's so much science behind um lighting, you know. Of course, everyone's familiar with the color temperature of lighting. So, you know, if it's artificial, if it's daylight, um biophilia, you know, are you surrounded by materials that are either like biomimicry, like they're they're trying, they kind of look like like maybe the carpet has a pattern that looks like water. Or um you're just there's a lot of use of natural materials like wood and stone and things like that. Um yeah, and obviously color, that's one that it kind of everyone's familiar with on how it influences you. You know, you know, red is typically like an energizing, you know, same with orange colors, and the blues and the greens are the the healing colors, and they, you know, help, you know, focus clarity. And I could go on and on, but yeah, there's a lot of and that's typically where um you know you start with things, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like talk to me about I'm a little freaked out by our LED environment now because I didn't realize this, but like all like in our buildings, all the buildings we do, you want like this um UV rating so that you they're efficient buildings, right? So most of the windows are UV rated to where full spectrum light does not come in, even so even though you have an office that the sun, you're seeing the sun, you're not getting a full spectrum UV ray coming through to you. And then I didn't realize that the one there's a lot of great things about LEDs, right? I mean, just from energy efficiency, it's incredible. Um, the durability, the longevity of these lights last forever, but they're only single spectrum light waves. Are we like doing something to ourselves because we don't have ever full spectrum light?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I can't I can't speak to that specifically. I would just say uh make sure you're getting outside. I know.

SPEAKER_01

Like you live like if you live in a cool cold, like like we're pretty, like we're pretty far north, and you get to these six months of the year that we're we're now out of that now, and so everyone's outside. But gosh, I'm like, I I started, I go down these rabbit holes, John, where I get like freaked out. And I'm like, so I'm like, I'm gonna get me like a full spectrum light to put by my treadbill every morning, like for the winter time. So I'm getting everything I need because you're not you're not getting you're not getting full spectrum light in a winter or a northern, you know, during the take December, like the the winter solstice. Like I'm I I come in the dark and I leave in the dark, and then I'm in an office that's got UV-rated windows and LEDs.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that's yeah, I mean, people use light therapy to get get through winter to, you know, seasonal affective disorder. That's that's what you're doing. So I think that's just that comes with the territory of how you know just humankind has we're become indoor creatures, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

All right, I won't go down any more rabbit holes.

SPEAKER_00

That's why we live in Idaho, so that we can be outside more.

SPEAKER_01

It is, yeah, it for sure is. Yeah. The old the Huberman like morning light thing is a big deal, right? But I think I didn't I just I guess what I'm saying is I didn't realize that for all the good that the LEDs are, they are just single wavelength, and you pick that wavelength, but that's all it is, and it is that broad uh full wavelength light thing that the our body needs for our circadian rhythms and everything.

SPEAKER_00

At the end of the day, there's still an artificial light source.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, that's right. That's right. But in uh anyway, I I didn't realize like even like candles give you a full range, incandescent lights gave you a cool full range light. But but LEDs don't. So I uh it makes me want to go plug in an incandescent light in my room.

SPEAKER_00

You certainly can do that if you can find one.

SPEAKER_01

You can find one, right?

AI Renderings And Faster Iteration

SPEAKER_01

Remember how warm they got. That's awesome. Um, what what do you what's the future of interiors? What's the future of art with uh spaces? What what's what's coming up with you guys? Uh we talked about AI in our last podcast, John and I.

SPEAKER_00

Um, that's definitely uh a big topic in our firm right now. And and you know, how do you design worldwide? Yeah, right. Like how do you harness the power of AI instead of it kind of overtaking you? Um so that's been the conversation in our firm of and also um making sure that it's not taking over your creative um process, right? Because you can you can use it for that. It can it can generate creativity, it can generate ideas, but you know, how do we focus our um how do we focus our process into using it to just make our workflow more efficient um and sort of you know speed up the creativity process like when we've already have an idea, you know, we've created a rendering and we want to like quickly just be like, hey, change out the brick to show limestone or something like that. Um so that's you know definitely.

SPEAKER_01

It's just like I mean you go back to go two years ago, three years ago. Right. This was like this, you know, you would you wouldn't even do the rendering because you wouldn't do a rendering every version to show someone, and now you can just like go and say, hey, change, change the color of this carpet or change this wall color or change the texture on something. It's so it's just amazing.

SPEAKER_04

It's also hard to get used to, I don't know for for you, but like I had a career of just going to Google, like a career of doing something, and then all of a sudden almost overnight, chat GPT, if we were when that released, it was like, wait a minute, what? So I had I remember I had this sticky that I had on my computer that said, could AI do that? And it was my way of retraining myself to not just default to the way I was doing it.

SPEAKER_01

What engines do you use, John?

SPEAKER_04

We use uh there's multiple, but the primary two at the at the agency are Cloud and Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And then we've got other ones that are kind of nuanced with um individual teams.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm just learning about the other like I mean there's really it's task driven, right? So depending on what you're trying to accomplish, a different engine is gonna, you know, give you what you need. What what which ones do you use?

SPEAKER_00

We use the chat we use Chat GDPT, but also Google has a um nano banana. Yep. Yes. Um but that one's that one's really good too. But same. John, like I the other day I was doing putting together a presentation and showing like an interior elevation of what this particular kitchen in a in a unit would look like. And I I started to like I was trying to generate the image on my own, like using parts and pieces, and I had to be like, no, there's a way faster way to do this. I'm just gonna upload the black and white version and say, I want the cabinets to be this, the backsplash is this, put a person in here, and then done. So uh yeah, I'm trying to retrain myself.

SPEAKER_04

Retrain yourself, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's one of the best examples. We do this again, we're kind of repeating ourselves. It's one of the best examples of the way we're gonna become more productive, though. It doesn't replace the creativity part of it, but but do you think of with a client you being able to just almost real time make changes and say, here's this? I mean, that just was not possible. Um uh and so it's going to help us, I think.

SPEAKER_00

I agree. Um yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to seeing how it can speed up and and make the creative process um more efficient. And you know, sometimes too, like mistakes happen when you're doing things and and you're kind of like, oh, actually I like that. Let's let's look at that a little bit further.

SPEAKER_01

So think about that part of it, right? For yourself, like as you create uh a space and see how things come together, that uh yeah, correct mistakes faster.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

We're finding we're finding the same, like where it's um, I mean, there there are certain things that it can definitely make faster. You know, that the get the stuff out of the way that nobody likes doing anyway. Like we we should do that. But I still go back to like the positive of it. It just helps you as a creative person get to where you're gonna get to faster. And then I like what you said there about like seeing a mistake faster. Like without it, you go down a long path and you you get to the end, and it's like that's not what I intended. And if and if I had the ability to see that earlier, it's like how much time do I save? How much more value can I be for my client? Things like that. Yeah, realizing mistakes early is that's a good that's a good way to think of it.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I think uh I think from my side too, I as you're saying that, John, we just had a recent project that I'm embarrassed because it got really far down the road, and then it wasn't wasn't until we were picking out final furniture, and I'm like, hey, can you review like the rooms for me and the finishes? Yeah, it just we got so much going on, and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's what but it what it took is them bringing all the samples in and us finally laying them out and you finally digging down. I probably am getting to the point now where I could say on all of our stuff, show me an image of each of the rooms right now. And I would have picked that up a lot earlier than bringing in boxes of samples and going through what the wallpaper was. On this particular one, if you would have seen the wallpaper, you would have just like died. I did. I'm like, holy. And it's my fault because I didn't look at it. But but I guess there's no reason now to not have a rendering of almost every hallway and every room and every because it's that easy. Now, if I would ask that a year ago, hey, I want a rendering of everything, they would have said, yeah, it's gonna cost you. I mean, that it would have been, I mean, what would it have been a couple years ago for you to for you to do a rendering of every single thing, thousands of dollars for each rendering.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely. And yeah, we still sometimes pay outside rendering people to do to do some of those things. But yeah, it's just using it, using it for good, right? Like we're or streamlining the process between myself and like consultants, you know, uh electrical engineers would give me a schedule of lighting fixtures with like a a 20-digit code for the model instead of asking them to for like cut sheets of every light fixture, just put it into AI and say, give me a cut sheet for all the light fixtures listed in this schedule, done. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01

In theory, it should help us not make mistakes. In theory. I will tell you though, uh, as an old guy, because I'm old, you went from the old architects and the old engineers that kind of hand drew and new stuff, and you went to rivet models, and I cannot tell you how many times I would like want to choke somebody and say, Why on earth didn't you catch this? And they're like, Well, on the rivet model, this. And I'm like, Well, did you walk the freaking space and see that the that the uh that the uh the ducts were were lower than the than the uh fire sprinklers and you can't walk into the room? And like, yeah, but it wasn't on the rivet model. And I'm like, well, you still can go measure the room and see it. It's under construction, right? So I do think we got to be careful as we go on. And you

AI Shortcuts Versus Real Craft

SPEAKER_01

know, the old old school guys just did pull their hair out because they're like, that would have never happened when I was drawing it, looking at it and walking it.

SPEAKER_04

So that's one of the dang that's one of the negatives, I think, of of of AI, because it's like if you use it to shortcut uh too much, you don't go through the process of actually learning it. And so what can happen, I think I don't know if you see this, but it's like you you go through it, you shortcut it, you have an amazing presentation. But as we all know, the the moment that that ends is kind of where sometimes the real work begins.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because there's the questions and there's the what-ifs, and there's all that. And if you haven't gone through the activity of actually figuring it out, you're gonna fail at step two. And so you have to, there's there's a little bit of like, where do I where do I make it help me be efficient, but not jeopardize my knowing of what I'm doing, because then I'm not gonna be a of value.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it does make it can make you a little lazy. I think it can. I'm even thinking like reviewing legal documents is one of the things we do now, like right. But now that one do you trust it fully?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and back when I used to have to read all those things and just make sure, hey, I'm gonna sign this thing and it's a big deal, but now I'm just doing a little analysis, right? Yeah. I'm sure it'll get better, but but some of it is is when do you make it more productive and when do you when do you when do you lose something? Lose your edge, right? For sure.

SPEAKER_04

Doesn't replace doing the work and knowing the craft like we have to. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What keeps you creative?

SPEAKER_00

Um lots of things. Um I um I think I I have a lot of creative outlets and I kind of like to s switch, switch between them and not get hyper-focused um on one. Um little attention deficit disorder uh mixed up in there, but just not being able to focus on one thing. But um I am a sewer, a quilter. Um, so that kind of fulfills my need to work with pattern and shape and how those come together and using my hands. Um I'm also a gardener, so um, you know, from April to October, I'm out in my yard gardening, landscaping, doing things with my hands. Um you know, we host some creative hours at our at our office. So we try to, you know, I think we can get bogged down in our everyday, like sitting at our computer and we're doing Revit and you know, drawing lines and 3D things. But um, you know, back when I was in in school, we started out, you know, we had a bunch of like hand sketching classes, you know, we would do some um, you know, we'd go out and draw the architecture building and you know, walk around and do things. So we were trying to do that in our firm to kind of get people, you know, away from their desk, outside, kind of it's it's sort of almost becoming like a a lost art, you know, of of hand sketching and and doing things by hand. You just don't see it anymore because there's so many tools to do it faster. Um yeah, I'm sure you can relate, Sean.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we I can, and and there is like there's as a design, as a designer, a lot of designers still with all the technology. I mean, the pad and the the pad and the pen, the pad and the pencil, that is still a core element of like getting the thought out whenever you have it. That doesn't go away. Like people still need that. So it for sure. And and if you don't, if you don't introduce yourself to new ways of thinking, you're stuck. So you have to find ways to do that and not just stay there and use AI to do it all. You gotta get out there and see it, experience it for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Does it go away in the near future? Like like which part of which like the the the the art of like like I'm wondering like for the next generation of you think of the iPhone was only invented what 15, 16 years ago, and now you think of what's happened, now we've got it, now we're on AI. And I'm just thinking of some of the most creative architects that I've ever dealt with in 25 years. One of them is a guy named Darren Bell out of Salt Lake. He's just unbelievable. But what I love about him, we don't use him on every project, but we're doing a couple big ones with him right now, and he still draws stuff. Yeah, made me think of it as soon as you said it. And I thought, I love it because I can have him go walk through downtown Merity, and we're doing that new downtown, we're taking over the one that right downtown Meridian, the felled one. And and he came up from Salt Lake, he walked it twice, he went home, he called me, he's like, I'm so excited, I can't wait to do this project. And then the next day he had hand sketched his vision, like from his mind and his like how people are gonna walk and how they're gonna interact with the streetscapes and where we're gonna do parks and where we're gonna do this this human experience with these buildings. And by the next day, he had sketched it all out. And I thought, son of a gun, like is this going away? I mean, Darren's probably 50 something, and I'm like, I don't see the next generation doing anything like that. I don't. One of the I'm just I listen, I'm like the the like Gran Torino get off my lawn guy at this point. Well, I fully embraced that, by the way.

SPEAKER_04

One of the things that that that we've been doing at the AC very much into technology and all that, but one of the things that we still do is we have these big eight-foot boards, foam core boards, with thumbtacks. And we will create boards of a client's brand so when they walk in, they see their brand. And it's and there's no better technology that's been invented to look at three eight-foot boards, eight by four, and see it all, and then be able to see some of the gaps or areas to go. Like nothing replaces them. So I think it's like so to riff on that, I said there is still like there's that where it's like the the lo-fi and the and the that still works great. And then what I'm always talking about with with our creative people is like you're there's something about you that makes you unique. The the unique skills that you have for whatever reason and whatever you're great at, lean into that in your work. Never stop doing that. So if you're a naturally great illustrator, always have that be a part of your work. If you're not, then choose something else. But whatever you're great at, lean into that and bring that into your craft. So whether a pen and paper makes that go or whatever, like really just welcome that within yourself. So I don't know if that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that's definitely a question that I've I've had um because I can say, like just in our office specifically, there are a couple people who still do like hand sketching and make really beautiful hand renderings and sketches, and they're amazing to have up in our office, but it's definitely the more seasoned um part of our staff. And I I do see like the younger staff, um, you know, they're they're not having those. And I I don't even know. I sometimes ask people like, because when I went to school, we were still required to do hand drafting. Um, you know, that was 25 years ago. But I I'm curious to know if schools are gonna start phasing out those things as well.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but yeah, and I and I like this experience as an example because I've I've I literally asked him this because I like it it wasn't it's not gonna be a 3D rendering that makes that thing happen. It is going to be thoughtful, like what is the new name for it, right? What are we gonna call it? What are we gonna embrace? And we're gonna call it Heritage Square. I'm I guess I'm leasing that, releasing that early, but but but like what are the elements now that go from ground up and plaza up? And it it was someone's mind that's super creative. This guy is a savant at this stuff, and he's like, okay, here's all the elements of how we're gonna use all the old and tie in the new, and this is gonna be how the art walk is gonna happen. And then he it comes from here onto this, and then it kind of comes up organically. And I wonder, is it gonna be the same when it's some young buck like that's like, oh, here's a 3D image of what this could be? I don't know, maybe it will be, maybe it'll be even better, but but it makes me nostalgic for the process, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

I think it might flip, right? Like it has it's kind of gone to like that was a required skill.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Otherwise you couldn't have got that idea out on paper.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Like 50 years ago, if you couldn't sketch out what you want your building to look like, you were kind of useless. And so now it's starting to flip, right? Like now we're relying on AI and all of our software and things to do that,

The Future Of Architecture With AI

SPEAKER_00

and it's become, you know, a nuance to be able to do. So it's gonna flip and maybe you become more of a priority if you're able to do those skills. But yeah, it makes me question how do we integrate that, you know, more into our process?

SPEAKER_01

I guess at the end of the day, talent is talent is talent. However, you end up getting it out, and it's still gonna be the vision and painting that clarity around the vision that's gonna win, right? Because those people go to the top because they're so unique and they and and I think it's the whole thing, like we're talking about creativity in these couple episodes, but it really is a blend of both, right? How can I take the you know, your brain is different than mine, that's why I'm hiring you. Yep. You're I mean, the reason why you got a third-year career is that you know how to craft and artistically bring out and connect what's in someone's vision and mind into a into a brand. Um that'll still happen. It may just happen differently, I guess.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. You the trick, I mean, the area that we live in, it's like you're you're trying to, whatever idea you have, you have to make it connect with who you're trying to, whoever you're working for and with. And what's interesting is like, I don't know if you find this in with your company, and but you have to give yourself some range.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because you're gonna have all sorts of different industries, all sorts of different clients. And if they're gonna believe what you're doing, you've got to one get in the mindset and you've got to meet them where they are. Like, is this a luxury brand? Is this a fast food brand? Is this a company that has this sort of etho? So they believe in that, you have to walk in there with range because you've got to connect with what they're doing. So, however you do that, if that's a big board or if that's a uh AI sort of help really advance it, like you just gotta be in the moment to be like, what do I need to do to get this idea to be understood? Yeah. So you need range. I don't know if you're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, it's just using the right tool for the job, right? Like, and it's it's a combination of a multitude of things of 3D modeling software or being able to just go up and take a marker and sketch over it to you know to I guess the frightening thing, I just thought of this.

SPEAKER_01

Like, there's probably a time in the not too near future where I could say, hey, I've got one square block that's this big in downtown Meridian. AI, look up the heritage of Meridian, the history of Meridian, put together three buildings. One's an office building that's 10 stories high, that has 120,000 square feet of of office and 350 parking stalls, retail on the main level. It's got a plaza out front, two towers that are multifamily. I want some brick elements, and I want to tie this into to it. That does not feel good to me, you guys. That feels so it's right there. I know that feels stupid to me. It probably will spit something out that'll tie into hair, it'll probably be, it might be, it just feels so artificial not to.

SPEAKER_04

It does, but if you don't bring, if you don't bring anything, if you don't bring a unique to a unique perspective into the prompt, then what just happened there in that example, person X could do the same thing and the and the machine is gonna get to a similar spot. So the cool thing is about the way that the I think the the neat thing about it is like so you do all that, but then you give it a slant. You give it like, okay, so you do all that, and then you add like a like a persona. Like, so what would it be like now? Imagine this, and then that's where it comes to the show.

SPEAKER_01

So the argument is you still have to you still have to have the vision that prompts the machine to get you to where you're going, but but the process just got exponentially faster to getting to that's a little crazy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean it can be an idea too.

SPEAKER_01

Architecture is gonna be architecture is gonna be nuts in the future. It it really it it's gonna be different. You worried about your jobs?

SPEAKER_00

No, we're not worried about our jobs yet.

SPEAKER_04

You have to be good. I mean, like you and Pivot North is good. You're good. I mean, it's like you you have to be good in order to add value. So it's like in in this realm of technology, it's like what what do we make sure that we are continuing to be good at so that we're valuable and and worth it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's happening so quick. I love it. I love it, but I hate it because I it's just so it's a change, right? There's a lot of people are gonna make a lot of money. Um as the people that figure this out and how to apply it and still connect to the human element of it are gonna do very, very well. Uh what do you what are you doing at your firm that's really embracing the changes that are happening so quickly?

SPEAKER_00

Uh specifically with AI?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um we have, I mean, there's there's even um workshops around the country for AI things. Um there's opportunity. I think you can build your like your sort of like own AI brain specifically for your company, and you basically kind of train it to take in your um like values, like our our climate action plan, like give it your climate action plan. This is our basis of design, this is what you should keep in mind. Um, and so kind of creating your own AI brain that's that's targeted towards your um specific firm. Um you know, and I like I said before, not letting it take over the creative process. You can use it to like generate ideas or you know, just some some out of the out of the ordinary type of things, but um just helping us be more efficient in our workflow so that we can, you know, yeah, just facilitate that creative process and um be able to show more options and have more ability to sh um you know present the things that we need to to our clients.

SPEAKER_01

So what do you think it is in five years for your industry from now, considering how fast it's going?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's so hard to predict.

SPEAKER_01

Um isn't it crazy that we're saying five years in that year? It's like it's like very true. Like if I would have asked you a year ago where was it, you would I mean I wouldn't have guessed where we are now. It's gonna go quick.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, uh AI is not um it's as far as I know, it's it's taking in all of this information, right? And not all of this information is correct or right. And so that's why you still have to fact check things. And so I do think there could be a possibility of it kind of maybe declining just because of all the information out there. It's it becomes sort of inefficient in its and how it's hard to do.

SPEAKER_01

This was like last week, because uh everything's been about we were looking into some data center stuff just to what it meant and uh the idea of how much power was crazy, like it's just crazy, right? But but then I listened to a guy who said that in his own uh uh uh company they built because the chip, the chips, the chip technology is going to go as fast as the power technology, right? So as soon as you can build your own tower in your office that's able to process things quickly, that he built one that over a weekend performed this task that he went back and said a year ago, I would have had to use X amount of power and X amount of weeks of AI, how quickly that happens. There might be a time where we've all been worried about these data centers everywhere. But if the chip technology goes as fast as we it might go, it might be so um ubiquitous to our daily task that it's not gonna be these big data centers. It may be servers in a it just I don't know. That gave me hope because this the whole the whole power thing is is really tricky. We're in a we're in a donut hole of power that is crazy. Um the small nuclear reactors will come out very soon, but very soon it's probably like six, seven, eight, nine, ten years. And until then, we have no power. So, and China has plenty of power because they'll just come to you and say, We're wiping out your town and we're gonna use all the power for AI so we can beat someone else, right?

SPEAKER_04

It's it's almost uh i it's it's so hard to it was I think there's a there's a famous quote that like we what how does it go? We overestimate the change in two years and we underestimate the change in ten. Yeah. I think it's something like that. So it's really hard it's it's really hard to know. Um I I think that the the best thing is to I mean the best thing is to remain great at your craft, look at the stuff that you don't want to do, see how it can help, and then the things that you're naturally trying to get done, put that to work to get it done for you. That's the best, that's the best. And then then you get the ab you free up space to be able to do more of what you want to do. But it's hard to know where it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

And uh that's another clip right there. But it's like perfect. Perfectly said. Like I mean, that's like the a succinct answer to what do I do with this ever-changing world is what you just said, Dwight.

SPEAKER_04

Well, thanks. I I it's it's it's staying up on it is a is a huge thing. Yeah. Like you have to, I have I have to, I don't know about the two of you, but I have to make time to be like, okay, I haven't read anything recently, I haven't researched the latest. Make the time. Have to find it outside of work. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because if you don't, you're you're gonna get left behind.

SPEAKER_04

You're gonna find for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah,

Creative Leadership And Clear Vision

SPEAKER_01

yeah, it's great. Well, um, this has been awesome, John. Yeah. It's fun. Um, I I didn't get I was gonna ask one more question in our last session, yeah. Uh because I did talk to you guys a little bit about what you do to remain creative, but any music that that you find that what other art, or I guess should say other art, music, art, what are the other ways you keep yourself sharp from a creative uh side of things?

SPEAKER_04

So at this stage of my career, I'm really into the um the the production of art. So for me right now, I'm getting a lot of fulfillment studying music production. Like, so not so not as much the artist, but the the producer about how they how they work with an artist and find like what what makes that great, or uh movie directors, how you work with talent and you bring one vision to life across multiple different people. So, what I'm getting a lot of fulfillment in is is is backtracking that. So, so listening to to podcasts or reading about like I I love the song or the album, but how did it get there? Like, what's the story? I love that. So I that's what gives me, that's where I am right now.

SPEAKER_01

And probably in your stage of career is like you're ready to like continue growing and like how did how did they put this together?

SPEAKER_04

I I have to because like my my role, my role at the at the company right now is I have to I over I over oversee the creative, yeah, the media, the strategy, the analytics, the Martech, and what we call UX and technology, the digital. So we've got experts that lead those. But if I'm gonna be of any value to those people, I have to be able to come to the table knowledgeable enough in that area to be able to give them a good game of tennis. So it's like I have to. So so me trying to understand what other people go through to to get there is super important to me in order for me to be valuable. Otherwise, I'm getting on, you know, I'm getting on in age. What are you learning? Uh the the importance of um the right talent, the importance of making sure everybody has the same vision. And the vision that we all agree to, you know, in our line of work with the client at step A, that we don't get off the path as we go, because so many things come up. Like, how do you keep them aligned to the to the vision of what you're doing? So the importance of that. Um the importance of uh striking when you're in the in the moment, like I like as creative people, it's like I might have three things to do over a given time period, and I allow myself the ability to be like, I've scheduled myself to work on this, but I'm having a hard time getting in the mindset of that. So I'm gonna flip that to do this and then do that, and then I'm I get to better work faster. So it's the ability to like recognize what I'm in the mood to do because I'm going to get there better faster. So recognizing that. And I've learned all that through getting through the back end of like how great work gets done.

SPEAKER_01

Tell us a little, just because I want to lean on some of your experience, how what what are some of your um uh strategies for motivating teams, motivating people? Because you said everyone's got clarity around a vision, which I think is I think a lot of a lot of failure I've had in my life is I've I've sometimes had a vision and I've got my plan and I'm gonna go jam it down everyone's throat and and I'm great at working hard, but I haven't had clarity around the vision where everyone's had buy-in before I did that. And I think if I would have just had more clarity, it would have made a difference. So what are your what are your tricks for or strategies around creating clarity?

SPEAKER_04

Uh spend spend a lot of time on what is that succinct line or articulated few words of what we're trying to do. Um an example I can share is like for a long time we worked for Visit Idaho. And a campaign that we became known for was 18 Summers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It won a bunch of awards, was team did a team did an amazing job at that. The clarity of that strategy came down to there was a bunch of reasons why, but it came down to the idea of you only have a limited time with your kids at home while they're still kids. That was the line. And from there, the creative team went out and produced 18 Summers, the phrase 18 summers, and they had a much more articulate way to capitalize that. But that was the line. And so working with the client, working with the media team that was buying the media, working with everybody, that was the mindset. So when we get into a room, it's like that's the biggest thing on the brief. Like we make that big so that we're all in the mindset of thinking about that. Because if we're not all on the same page, we're not gonna do as good of work as we can possibly do. So it's like that line, and working on that line a lot. What are the words in here? How long is it? Is it easy to understand? Is it clear?

SPEAKER_01

That's let me uh let me ask you another follow-up. Yeah. So for a company um and branding, could that be a tagline? Could that be a I mean, because I love how simplicity in communication of what the big picture is, that to me is the magic, right? If I if I can if I can get someone in, have a buy-in and to what we're doing with probably more words and more action and stuff, but simplicity of articulating that.

SPEAKER_04

The uh earlier in a career I had a client, it was a resort client, uh Pelican Hill, which is down in in um Orange County. And the line was the possibility of perfection. That was the line. Now it didn't really become a tagline, but that was the line that we worked on, we got to it, and that's what it meant. So that went to everything from architecture to interiors to staff to hiring to picking, like the possibility of perfection. And for that audience, that was what it needed to be. But it went throughout the entire organization, everybody went back to that. And so we had a big meeting where it's like the lead up to reveal the possibility of perfection had what took 20 minutes, like what the brand is about, what you're trying to do, and then it lands on that, and it was like, okay, let's do that. That's great. That's great. It was it was fun to work on a team effort too.

SPEAKER_01

We have a monthly meeting with our our whole company, and um where we allow the different leaders to present at that and try to teach something of value. And um I I was with Garrett Lofto uh with Simplot, and he was it was I happened to be with him the day that we had the redemption period run out on this new project we're gonna do at downtown Meridian. Yeah, when you buy something in bankruptcy at a at an auction, in Idaho, there's six months to redeem the person that lost it an auction can come buy it back after six months. Oh, okay. So we kind of held our breath for six months on that, thinking, no, the prior owner still may come back and buy it. And I happened to be with him all the way up till 5 p.m. when that happened. And he's like, he's like, you keep checking your thing, what's going on? I'm like, I'm just I'm just anxious. And um he said, and I told him about the projects, he's like, Why do you like doing such miserably hard things? Like, and I just said, Well, one of our mottos is turning chicken shit into chicken salad. And the next the next day, I mean, Boise Hole, I mean, we just have done some hard things, right? And uh, so the next day I I got on, this is gonna all come around. I was doing my presentation. I thought, well, I wonder if I way I start my talk is I go to Chat GPT or one of them and and have a picture of me like holding some chicken shit and chicken salad. And I just stuck my face in there, and that's how I started the talk. Now, I thought that should be our tagline, but I don't think you would probably recommend that. Only we turn chicken shit into chicken shots.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, only I love things like that because they're they're unique to a company and a and a person, and and when everybody's kind of in on the joke, it can do a lot. Um, the only thing with that is it is it

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_04

it requires more definition than what it is. You know what I mean? So it's like on its own, it doesn't stand. That would be my only thing if you're at it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great. But um any last words?

SPEAKER_00

Um I guess just uh what you said before, John, about um, you know, taking into account other creative professions, um, I think it that helps you think outside the box, right? Like I know you just talked to to Chris Kumore. Um I'm reading a book right now called Unreasonable Hospitality about um you know the restaurant business and how you how they went above and beyond um you know just serving food. And it's it helps, you know, as a designer, as a creative person, to to think outside the box and be like, how can I apply these principles to what I do um you know in a context of something you wouldn't normally think about. So I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you so much for coming on, May. It was great. John, thanks for doing these. Hey, it's been great. Uh it's been great. Um it's been great talking about something like this uh on this, and I think a lot of people will enjoy this. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks, everybody.